September 25, 2023 • 23 mins
On this episode of "Podversations", join iHeartPodcasts President Will Pearson and Grammy-nominated hitmaker, entrepreneur, and philanthropist, Billy Mann, host of the podcast, “Yeah, I F*cked That Up”.
Billy Mann has access to some of society’s most influential figures in ways you have never seen before. Inspired by one of his children who particularly struggles with failure, Billy started this podcast to talk to seemingly perfect individuals about their failures. Each week, Billy asks his celebrity acquaintances never-asked-before questions and as a result, reveals a vulnerable and relatable side of these larger-than-life figures.
Billy will discuss why podcasting was the right format for these conversations and how his family life has affected his career trajectory.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
iHeartRadio presents Podversations, a weekly discussion with the biggest names.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
And influencers in podcasting.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Want to one of the secret psychic rituals, Scrub stars
Zach Brath and Donald Fazing News before Every Fake Doctor's
Real Friends Taping, How Vice News parachutes into war zones
to rescue journalists from life threatening situations, Or why Keegan,
Michael Key and Blumhouse believe three D audio is the
future of storytelling. Whether you're a newbie trying to break
into the podcast game or an exec trying to refine
(00:31):
your playbook, Podversations is the easiest way to keep your
pulse on the industry.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Welcome back to the iHeart Podcast Speakers series. I'm Will Pearson,
President of iHeart Podcast always going to.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Be with you.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
As you know, each week we get a chance to
chat with one of our favorite producers or podcasters or
thinkers in the space and talk about a show that
we are just obsessed over right now. And so today
we get a chance to do that. When I heard
that we were going to be doing a podcast, or
at least talking about a podcast with Billy Mann, longtime
Grammy nominated songwriter, record producer, creative executive. The guy has
(01:16):
been involved in over one hundred and twenty five million
albums sold, so it's just an unbelievable track record.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I thought we might be going in one direction.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
With the podcast, and I was thrown a curveball, and
I'm so happy that I was throwing a curveball when
we got a chance to understand what this podcast was
all about. And it's called, Yeah, I fucked that up,
and we're allowed to say that on this show here,
So we're going to get a chance to talk to
Billy about that. But Billy, always good to see it.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Thank you Will. I'm excited that we can curse freely
and we're recording.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
We're adults, Billy.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
We can do whatever we want on this show.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Now.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
That's the beauty of podcasting.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So, like I said, it was fun to see this
concept because sometimes you expect one thing coming. And again,
you've been involved in the music industry for a long time.
I just love sitting down every once in a while
looking at the roster of people that you've worked with,
from Burt Bacharach to John Legend of Celene Dion to
Share Backstreet Boys, Josh Groban. I mean, the list goes
(02:11):
on and on and on, and so I'm curious to
hear from you when you decided to start a podcast.
What made you think to go in a pretty different
direction with this.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Well, I think it's twofold first, thanks for having me. Secondly,
I think the experience of being a record producer and
a songwriter. The captain obvious responses, I'm going to do
a podcast about music. But so much of what you
do when you're in the studio with artists, most of
whom at this point in my career are celebrities, is
creating a safe place for them to be themselves. And
(02:41):
you want and you want to capture that moment. And
what people don't see, which I am lucky enough to see,
is the more vulnerable moments that a lot of celebrities
and artists have. And you just don't find celebrities who
are constantly in a state of judgment allowed the room
to you, forget brag about failure, but talk openly about failure,
(03:04):
because every day that you're posting on social media, or
you do an interview, or you're on tour, or go
to the store to buy milk, you are being judged.
And watched and I just I have gotten to see
a lot of famous people that are in my life
in a very not famous way, and like all of us,
they fuck up, they are making mistakes. They're trying to
(03:25):
figure out how to navigate being human. And maybe they're
navigating it in a car that's nicer than mine, or
they've got clothing that's fancy, or they've got glam squads
when they go out for date night. But in the end,
they're doing the same thing that we're doing. And that
was really the first piece of it, and I just
thought it'd be interesting. And the second piece is really
based on one of my kids who has learning differences
(03:47):
and suffered from terrible paralysis when he would fuck up
on a test or he made a mistake on something,
and I kept trying to explain to him, you know,
if you want to be successful at anything, you're going
to fail. You're going to fall down before you get
to run. You know, we first we crawl and then
we walk, and then we run and then we fly.
But you don't really think about that when you want
(04:08):
to do everything right and it's impossible to do that,
and yet we are all living in a world will
where everybody is posting a highlight reel of everything me
included and so, yeah, I fucked that up? Is like
can I I mean, the first question is can I
get enough celebrity style people willing to actually talk openly?
(04:28):
And I hope that at least the people listening to
this understand that the motivation is not to have like
a gotcha moment with somebody who's famous, but more to
show just how relatable it all is for everybody. And
it's a side that people don't see. And frankly, even
people who aren't famous don't go into work and say
I really fucked up this morning with my partner or
my friend or my kid. But we're all doing it.
(04:49):
We're just not talking about it.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, to that point saying we're not talking about it.
I loved hearing the comment from Kelly Rowland when she
basically said, nobody's ever asked me this question before, you know,
And I thought that that was just so bizarre. And
did you find that in most of these interviews that
you've been doing, are you commonly getting that, like, you
know what, I've not really had a chance to step
back and talk about this before.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Is that a pretty consistent thing.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
Well, I think most celebrities and artists are constantly in
a state of promotion mode with they're out doing interviews
and nobody knows that better than iHeart. You get called, oh,
this artist is in cycle. How do we coordinate them
going on this show with this jingle ball or this function.
So part of it is freeing them from an obligation
(05:34):
to sell, and that's step one, and step two is
trying to just use my record producer skills to create
an environment for the conversation that is free of judgment,
which is I mean, we're all being judged all the time.
But to prompt someone like Kelly who's been famous since
she was a teenager, you know, even someone like La
(05:56):
Reid who's been reluctantly famous and then embraced the fact
that he's a public person, you know, it's an adjustment
to talk about these things because if you volunteer failure,
we're already judged. Then it's like you're giving people ammunition
to further bury you, and that's the misconception. So I
think Kelly's view, even with Michael Bolton, was like surprisingly
(06:18):
meaningful to me because Michael is a guy who's been
I think he would say openly, someone who's been at
the forefront of pop culture and also been in many
respects marginalized, and someone that you would say, you'd make
a joke about Michael, and he's had to endure all that.
But the behind the scenes of Michael's life, I mean,
nobody knows that Michael Bolton lived on food stamps while
(06:39):
he was raising his daughters. I mean, there are things
that he talked about that were so meaningful to listen
to that you don't think of someone like Michael Bolton's
going to talk about these things. So hopefully when people
listen to this, not only does it make us all
feel a little bit more normal, but it also humanizes
the celebrities that they know one way, and then they
realize that they're also going through stuff or have been
(07:02):
through stuff where they feel like they've fucked up.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I've never heard those stories.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
I was actually going to bring up the Michael Bolton
conversation a bround some of those struggles and the conversation
that you guys had around the idea of taking yourself
seriously and a lot of times with people who are celebrities,
were often left with the impression that certain celebrities take
themselves too seriously, and sometimes it's refreshing and sort of
an interesting peek into somebody's mind, this idea that you know, again,
(07:47):
some of these huge names still struggle with these same
self doubt when these same things that are obstacles within
themselves the success. But yeah, wondering if you could talk
a little bit more about that conversation with Mike Bolton
and sort of how he navigated that and found himself
you know where he is today.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
I think part of it with Michael is he's gone
through a series of cycles, right. I mean for him,
he didn't have his first hit song as an artist
until he was in his thirties. And in today's world,
everything is so young. It's like half of the pop stars,
you know, you would never I don't say never, but
it very we'd all be hard pressed to think the
(08:25):
next big pop star is thirty something raising three daughters.
You know. I want to say I see it, but
I don't, and I don't think any of us that now.
It's like so and so is on this TV show
and they're a teenager, and all of a sudden, our
kids are dressing like whoever that is or there's this worship.
I think Michael, on the one hand, had an appreciation
for this amazing opportunity that he had later because he
(08:46):
was singing jingles right and all of a sudden he
listened to his first hit song on the radio, and
right after he was singing like a be all you
can be army commercial and they had to decide between
is he going to be a pop singer enroll the dice,
or is he to take away the one steady income
stream he's had to raise his kids. So I think
part of his taking things so seriously will is the
(09:09):
fear of losing the opportunity for his girls. It took
a minute in our conversation to get to that, because
I think when he was examining his own fuck ups,
like what does he wish he maybe had done a
better job doing, he wasn't thinking I should have done
a better job with business. He wasn't thinking I should
have cut my hair earlier or later. He wasn't talking
(09:29):
about any of this sort of buzz pop stuff. Really
looking at the time, he maybe didn't get enough time
with his daughters when he started to do well, and
then he realizes, now I can't get that time back.
I think we all go through that in some ways.
You know, we're not just workaholics, but you know, my
mom worked two jobs when we were kids, and like
in the morning, if I got a note have a
(09:51):
good day with three boxes of cereal and a bowl.
That was my mom's way of being a mom to me.
But I think we're all trying to keep the balls rolling.
And I think for him, his taking himself so seriously
was I think born out of a fear of losing
the opportunity and being back on food stamps.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
It's interesting that we talked about, you know, sort of
the view that we see, and you mentioned social media
and the idea that we're projecting one thing but having
certain struggles that are happening behind the scenes. I guess
to some extent celebrities experience that to an amplified degree,
this idea of a very public life and then what's
going on in your real life. I thought it was
(10:29):
a fascinating conversation when you talk about this idea of
living a double life, and I was curious if you could,
you know, talk about that and maybe even some of
the conversations that you had around this idea.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
I've discovered from doing this podcast that people generally have
three lives. They have their public life, they have their
private life, and they have their secret life. And I
think all of us sort of go through life like
outward facing. If you're selling something, you're on your job,
you're playing a role. Hopefully you love it, and if
you don't love it, you have to at least do
your best to love it for what you can do
for you, your family or yourself. And then your private
(11:02):
life is like who you roll with when you get
home and who you kick it with and watching your
favorite sport or a movie or a podcast. And then
your secret life is you know, what we're struggling with
or what we really love that maybe is a little weird.
Getting through there is hard. And I had a conversation
with Shelley Wright. I don't know if people will remember,
but Shelley Wright in the nineties was the absolute like
(11:24):
country music. She was everything Kansas farm raised, Kansas girl, beautiful,
play guitar, sing, wanting to go to Nashville and become
a famous singer or whatever. And she did that. She
went to Nashville and she got a deal and her
number one hit was a song called single white female.
She and Brad Paisley were like the royal couple of
(11:45):
country music and the night she won the ACM Award
for Best Female Artist. Now you have to remember this
is in the nineties. This is a Kansas farm girl
country singer. Dooe. I'd like just happy to be there,
like oh my gosh, my dreams have come through. Brad
Paisley's like her boyfriend. This is like the Jessica Simpson
(12:05):
nick lche of country music, right minus the tuna fish
and all of a sudden, you know, she goes home
and the whole time, Shelley Wright is a lesbian and
tells no one except she's in a gay relationship, and
she knows or feels that if she tells her family,
if she tells her record label, that her whole life
(12:26):
is over. And talking to her, I was breathless listening
to her, because her version of fucking up was really
not being herself, and so much of the themes not Shelley.
That's one level of the double life. But I think
what I've learned is everyone I've spoken to has their
own micro version of it. Either they're not listening to
what their inner voice is telling them. To do. It's
(12:48):
like I got this opportunity to do X, and inside
you think I don't know if I should do this,
and on the outside you do it anyway, and then
when it doesn't work, your outside voice goes to your
inside voice and says, why did you let me do it?
And I think Shelley's story was, I mean, very powerful.
But in other ways you heard that from other guests,
(13:09):
Like you know Evan Handler. People know from Californication and
Sex and the City. He plays Harry Goldblatt, Charlotte's husband
in Sex and the City. And he's bald, right, and
he's known as this bald guy who's a brilliant actor.
But what people don't know is when you talk about
his fuck ups. He has some career moments and by
the way, some hilarious moments about when he has done
(13:29):
sex scenes. Like if anybody listening to this has seen
Evan Handler in any of these shows, some of the
conversation with him was so funny around that topic. But
what people don't know is when we talk about I
fucked that up or moments of self doubt. The reason
he's bald is because right on the eve of his
Broadway career exploding, and he was in Neil Simon's Six
Degrees of Separation. He was diagnosed with a rare cancer
(13:53):
and he had a ten percent chance of living. And
this is as a young guy. So the reason that
Evan Handler is bald is because his hair never grew
back after he conquered cancer. So we see one thing
in the celebrities, and they are all putting out there
through social media and pressed and red carpets, all of
their highlight real moments. But I'm learning so much listening
(14:16):
to these famous people talk about these human moments. It
makes me love them more and also feel slightly more normal.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
I mean, I would say for every conversation that I've heard,
I think I've listened to five of the episodes so far,
and in each one, these are people that I've heard interviewed,
in many cases dozens of times, and it feels like
such a different approach here and a different kind of conversation.
And I've loved that, and I assume that that was
part of the goal here in terms of doing that.
(14:44):
I'm curious, just in terms of the podcast format, why
do this as a podcast? What is it about podcasting
that you feel has helped this work in the way
that it has.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
I don't know another format where this would work. I
think podcasting, And as someone that listens to a lot
of podcasts, you know, there's a lot of podcasts that
talk about this thing happened, What do I do now? Right?
There are a lot of podcasts that I don't want
to say a lot. Everybody has their own thing, just
like there's a lot of songs and a lot of artists.
But what I wanted to figure out was one how
(15:13):
am I going to get people who are famous or
notable in a way to talk openly about their feelings
about failure, about falling down and being embarrassed. And podcasts,
you know, you can roll out of bed and be
in your sweatpants in the studio and I'm not worried
about glam squads, and I'm not worried about all of
a sudden there's a camera and then there's all these
(15:34):
other expectations. So I think podcasts has been a really
healthy platform where I can talk to people and they
feel less judged than maybe they would on a traditional
talk show. And I think that that has created a
safe place for people to feel comfortable talk. I mean
think of how many zooms you and I and everybody
(15:54):
listening to this have been on when COVID and everything
shifted in the world. And I think even in terms
of today's political climate, talking to one another is hard, ironically,
given how the proliferation of podcasts and conversations and dialogues,
and yet somehow, when we talk about these more sensitive
areas in US, there are few vehicles for this. And
(16:16):
I don't know why, but I feel like this format
is giving people a freedom to express and talk about
their feelings in a way. And maybe it's because they're
less judged than if they were on a talk show
being grilled under bright lights.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
You know, sometimes the word intimate is overused a bit
when describing podcasts, but that's probably because it's really accurate.
You know, there's something about that connection not only for
the person being interviewed and the conversation that's happening there,
but for the person's at home or the person on
their job or cooking dinner or whatever while they're listening,
feeling right there in it.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
And you guys have nailed it already.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
A lot of times podcasts take a while to sort
of hit that stride in terms of capturing that. But
each of the conversations that I've heard you have here
just really showcase this incredible connection and a willingness for
the talent or the people that you're talking to to
be more vulnerable. And so I think you're bringing something
that I hope is a benefit to people as they
(17:27):
listen to it. And speaking of that just in terms
of helping other people, not fully related to the podcast,
although you mentioned your kids earlier and the fact that
you watch your kids struggle a little bit and that
might have provided some inspiration behind all of this, we
shouldn't go without talking about the work that you and
your family have done to provide community support for families
with special needs, whether it be kids or other family members,
(17:50):
and one just wanted to say thanks for all the
work that you've done on that front. I know you
have two kids that are on the autism spectrum, and
I just think it's amazing the work you've done, as
busy as you are in your profession life to have
taken the time that you guys have taken to really
give back in every way you can.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
And I wanted to see if you could share the story.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
And you talk a lot about everything that you've achieved,
or you think about all the things that you've achieved,
but the thing that you're most proud of is one
of those moments where you get a chance to recognize
what you've accomplished for a group that really needs it.
Can you talk for a minute about the moment and
the Oval office and the opportunity that you got there.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
Well, first off, thank you for acknowledging that we're in
the entertainment business where you find a lot of folks
who are of means and get to a certain altitude
and they do charity work and then they have to
name it after themselves, and it's like, if your name
is John Smith, it's like the John Smith wing of
the And I like the anonymous element of it. And
(18:44):
one of the things that happened my oldest son has
no expressive language. So it's one in thirty five kids
are being diagnosed on the autism spectrum, and it's a
huge spectrum by the way they're including my younger son
is successful, going to college, driving, loves music and building
a life and his pace. And I would say to
anybody listening to this, you know, every journey is unique.
(19:05):
But with my older son, who's now in his early twenties.
There were very few resources and very few options. There
was no health insurance coverage. And it's a lot for
anybody listening to this who's for sure knows somebody who
has autism, a family member or a friend who has
a kid. It can be a lot of unknown territory
all at once. But where I got involved was I
(19:27):
had such an upset reaction to the idea that there
was no health insurance coverage for therapies for my son.
And even though we could afford it the way I
grew up, we couldn't have afforded it. And so as
I started to dig a little deeper, my wife and
I got active, and that led to getting involved in
talking to politicians, really, because to move the needle, you
(19:49):
have to talk to people. I've never thought of myself
getting attached to politicians. Eventually that led to a relationship
with President Obama long before he was President Obama and
he was doing your Senator Obama. And it's important to
note that I've talked to everybody. I've spent time with
Mitt Romney, I sat with Speaker Bayner. I'll talk to anybody,
But I really managed to be a part of a
(20:11):
lot of people and a lot of organizations collectively to
put this front and center and make it front and center,
by the way, with George W. Bush, with Obama and
continuing forward. But when this authorization for funding, this is
too long a story for anybody listened to. But they
invited me to go to the Oval Office for the
signing into law, and I said that I wanted to
(20:34):
go and bring my son. My son has a lot
of behavioral challenges and doesn't have expressive language, but I
felt like it was important that a person who's autistic
an individual is there. And I wouldn't have done anything
if it wasn't for my son. My son doesn't have
the language to tell me things, but he taught me
enough to find some courage in myself to try and
(20:56):
risk fucking up in the Yeah, I fucked that up
spirit of things, at least try so. When the President
signed the bill into law for the funding and he
gave the first pen to my son, it was better
than any hit song, any plaque that I've ever had,
And in my house, I don't have any of my plaques.
I'm grateful for all of them, but I don't have
any of them in our main living space. The only
(21:18):
thing I have is that pen on the wall. So
I appreciate you asking me about it, because even that
is like not easy to broadcast. And I was even
told when he was first diagnosed, some people in the
music industry said, you know, you shouldn't let people know
that you have a child with a disability because you
may not get work. They'll feel like you're distracted or
not reliable. And that fucked me up for a while,
and then thankfully I really turned the other corner, which
(21:41):
is like, not only am I going to talk about it,
but I want to do something about it. And just
so you know, iHeart and Z one hundred were probably
the beginning of that activism for me, the most powerful
supporters of awareness, including one of the early Z one
hundred jingle balls where they put the autism charities up
(22:01):
on the big screen. And so I'm really grateful to
iHeart and you know, Tom Pullman and Alyssa Pollock and
Elvis Durant and all of the people in the organization
that have always supported that part of my life. Actually
it's important that I say that, you know, whatever happens
with the podcast that has a lot more importance than that.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Well, I appreciate your saying that, and it's a no
brainer to get behind a mission like that. I have
loved talking to you about this. I do hope if
those watching or listening today, if you haven't checked it out, Yeah,
I fucked that up. There's so many great conversations. We've
talked about a few of them today. I really think
you'll enjoy the podcast. But Billy, thanks for taking some
time with us.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
We enjoyed it.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Thank you. Thanks for the support, and hopefully I get
better throughout the season because I'm still learning and fucking
up along the way, So I do appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Oh, it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Well, thanks for joining us today and we'll be back
with you next week.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Take Care.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Conversations is a production of iHeartRadio. You could find more
from the biggest names in podcasting on the iHeartRadio app
or wherever you get your podcasts.
iHeartRadio presents Podversations, a weekly discussion with the biggest names.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
And influencers in podcasting.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Want to one of the secret psychic rituals, Scrub stars
Zach Brath and Donald Fazing News before Every Fake Doctor's
Real Friends Taping, How Vice News parachutes into war zones
to rescue journalists from life threatening situations, Or why Keegan,
Michael Key and Blumhouse believe three D audio is the
future of storytelling. Whether you're a newbie trying to break
into the podcast game or an exec trying to refine
(00:31):
your playbook, Podversations is the easiest way to keep your
pulse on the industry.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Welcome back to the iHeart Podcast Speakers series. I'm Will Pearson,
President of iHeart Podcast always going to.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Be with you.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
As you know, each week we get a chance to
chat with one of our favorite producers or podcasters or
thinkers in the space and talk about a show that
we are just obsessed over right now. And so today
we get a chance to do that. When I heard
that we were going to be doing a podcast, or
at least talking about a podcast with Billy Mann, longtime
Grammy nominated songwriter, record producer, creative executive. The guy has
(01:16):
been involved in over one hundred and twenty five million
albums sold, so it's just an unbelievable track record.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I thought we might be going in one direction.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
With the podcast, and I was thrown a curveball, and
I'm so happy that I was throwing a curveball when
we got a chance to understand what this podcast was
all about. And it's called, Yeah, I fucked that up,
and we're allowed to say that on this show here,
So we're going to get a chance to talk to
Billy about that. But Billy, always good to see it.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Thank you Will. I'm excited that we can curse freely
and we're recording.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
We're adults, Billy.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
We can do whatever we want on this show.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Now.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
That's the beauty of podcasting.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So, like I said, it was fun to see this
concept because sometimes you expect one thing coming. And again,
you've been involved in the music industry for a long time.
I just love sitting down every once in a while
looking at the roster of people that you've worked with,
from Burt Bacharach to John Legend of Celene Dion to
Share Backstreet Boys, Josh Groban. I mean, the list goes
(02:11):
on and on and on, and so I'm curious to
hear from you when you decided to start a podcast.
What made you think to go in a pretty different
direction with this.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Well, I think it's twofold first, thanks for having me. Secondly,
I think the experience of being a record producer and
a songwriter. The captain obvious responses, I'm going to do
a podcast about music. But so much of what you
do when you're in the studio with artists, most of
whom at this point in my career are celebrities, is
creating a safe place for them to be themselves. And
(02:41):
you want and you want to capture that moment. And
what people don't see, which I am lucky enough to see,
is the more vulnerable moments that a lot of celebrities
and artists have. And you just don't find celebrities who
are constantly in a state of judgment allowed the room
to you, forget brag about failure, but talk openly about failure,
(03:04):
because every day that you're posting on social media, or
you do an interview, or you're on tour, or go
to the store to buy milk, you are being judged.
And watched and I just I have gotten to see
a lot of famous people that are in my life
in a very not famous way, and like all of us,
they fuck up, they are making mistakes. They're trying to
(03:25):
figure out how to navigate being human. And maybe they're
navigating it in a car that's nicer than mine, or
they've got clothing that's fancy, or they've got glam squads
when they go out for date night. But in the end,
they're doing the same thing that we're doing. And that
was really the first piece of it, and I just
thought it'd be interesting. And the second piece is really
based on one of my kids who has learning differences
(03:47):
and suffered from terrible paralysis when he would fuck up
on a test or he made a mistake on something,
and I kept trying to explain to him, you know,
if you want to be successful at anything, you're going
to fail. You're going to fall down before you get
to run. You know, we first we crawl and then
we walk, and then we run and then we fly.
But you don't really think about that when you want
(04:08):
to do everything right and it's impossible to do that,
and yet we are all living in a world will
where everybody is posting a highlight reel of everything me
included and so, yeah, I fucked that up? Is like
can I I mean, the first question is can I
get enough celebrity style people willing to actually talk openly?
(04:28):
And I hope that at least the people listening to
this understand that the motivation is not to have like
a gotcha moment with somebody who's famous, but more to
show just how relatable it all is for everybody. And
it's a side that people don't see. And frankly, even
people who aren't famous don't go into work and say
I really fucked up this morning with my partner or
my friend or my kid. But we're all doing it.
(04:49):
We're just not talking about it.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, to that point saying we're not talking about it.
I loved hearing the comment from Kelly Rowland when she
basically said, nobody's ever asked me this question before, you know,
And I thought that that was just so bizarre. And
did you find that in most of these interviews that
you've been doing, are you commonly getting that, like, you
know what, I've not really had a chance to step
back and talk about this before.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Is that a pretty consistent thing.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
Well, I think most celebrities and artists are constantly in
a state of promotion mode with they're out doing interviews
and nobody knows that better than iHeart. You get called, oh,
this artist is in cycle. How do we coordinate them
going on this show with this jingle ball or this function.
So part of it is freeing them from an obligation
(05:34):
to sell, and that's step one, and step two is
trying to just use my record producer skills to create
an environment for the conversation that is free of judgment,
which is I mean, we're all being judged all the time.
But to prompt someone like Kelly who's been famous since
she was a teenager, you know, even someone like La
(05:56):
Reid who's been reluctantly famous and then embraced the fact
that he's a public person, you know, it's an adjustment
to talk about these things because if you volunteer failure,
we're already judged. Then it's like you're giving people ammunition
to further bury you, and that's the misconception. So I
think Kelly's view, even with Michael Bolton, was like surprisingly
(06:18):
meaningful to me because Michael is a guy who's been
I think he would say openly, someone who's been at
the forefront of pop culture and also been in many
respects marginalized, and someone that you would say, you'd make
a joke about Michael, and he's had to endure all that.
But the behind the scenes of Michael's life, I mean,
nobody knows that Michael Bolton lived on food stamps while
(06:39):
he was raising his daughters. I mean, there are things
that he talked about that were so meaningful to listen
to that you don't think of someone like Michael Bolton's
going to talk about these things. So hopefully when people
listen to this, not only does it make us all
feel a little bit more normal, but it also humanizes
the celebrities that they know one way, and then they
realize that they're also going through stuff or have been
(07:02):
through stuff where they feel like they've fucked up.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I've never heard those stories.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
I was actually going to bring up the Michael Bolton
conversation a bround some of those struggles and the conversation
that you guys had around the idea of taking yourself
seriously and a lot of times with people who are celebrities,
were often left with the impression that certain celebrities take
themselves too seriously, and sometimes it's refreshing and sort of
an interesting peek into somebody's mind, this idea that you know, again,
(07:47):
some of these huge names still struggle with these same
self doubt when these same things that are obstacles within
themselves the success. But yeah, wondering if you could talk
a little bit more about that conversation with Mike Bolton
and sort of how he navigated that and found himself
you know where he is today.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
I think part of it with Michael is he's gone
through a series of cycles, right. I mean for him,
he didn't have his first hit song as an artist
until he was in his thirties. And in today's world,
everything is so young. It's like half of the pop stars,
you know, you would never I don't say never, but
it very we'd all be hard pressed to think the
(08:25):
next big pop star is thirty something raising three daughters.
You know. I want to say I see it, but
I don't, and I don't think any of us that now.
It's like so and so is on this TV show
and they're a teenager, and all of a sudden, our
kids are dressing like whoever that is or there's this worship.
I think Michael, on the one hand, had an appreciation
for this amazing opportunity that he had later because he
(08:46):
was singing jingles right and all of a sudden he
listened to his first hit song on the radio, and
right after he was singing like a be all you
can be army commercial and they had to decide between
is he going to be a pop singer enroll the dice,
or is he to take away the one steady income
stream he's had to raise his kids. So I think
part of his taking things so seriously will is the
(09:09):
fear of losing the opportunity for his girls. It took
a minute in our conversation to get to that, because
I think when he was examining his own fuck ups,
like what does he wish he maybe had done a
better job doing, he wasn't thinking I should have done
a better job with business. He wasn't thinking I should
have cut my hair earlier or later. He wasn't talking
(09:29):
about any of this sort of buzz pop stuff. Really
looking at the time, he maybe didn't get enough time
with his daughters when he started to do well, and
then he realizes, now I can't get that time back.
I think we all go through that in some ways.
You know, we're not just workaholics, but you know, my
mom worked two jobs when we were kids, and like
in the morning, if I got a note have a
(09:51):
good day with three boxes of cereal and a bowl.
That was my mom's way of being a mom to me.
But I think we're all trying to keep the balls rolling.
And I think for him, his taking himself so seriously
was I think born out of a fear of losing
the opportunity and being back on food stamps.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
It's interesting that we talked about, you know, sort of
the view that we see, and you mentioned social media
and the idea that we're projecting one thing but having
certain struggles that are happening behind the scenes. I guess
to some extent celebrities experience that to an amplified degree,
this idea of a very public life and then what's
going on in your real life. I thought it was
(10:29):
a fascinating conversation when you talk about this idea of
living a double life, and I was curious if you could,
you know, talk about that and maybe even some of
the conversations that you had around this idea.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
I've discovered from doing this podcast that people generally have
three lives. They have their public life, they have their
private life, and they have their secret life. And I
think all of us sort of go through life like
outward facing. If you're selling something, you're on your job,
you're playing a role. Hopefully you love it, and if
you don't love it, you have to at least do
your best to love it for what you can do
for you, your family or yourself. And then your private
(11:02):
life is like who you roll with when you get
home and who you kick it with and watching your
favorite sport or a movie or a podcast. And then
your secret life is you know, what we're struggling with
or what we really love that maybe is a little weird.
Getting through there is hard. And I had a conversation
with Shelley Wright. I don't know if people will remember,
but Shelley Wright in the nineties was the absolute like
(11:24):
country music. She was everything Kansas farm raised, Kansas girl, beautiful,
play guitar, sing, wanting to go to Nashville and become
a famous singer or whatever. And she did that. She
went to Nashville and she got a deal and her
number one hit was a song called single white female.
She and Brad Paisley were like the royal couple of
(11:45):
country music and the night she won the ACM Award
for Best Female Artist. Now you have to remember this
is in the nineties. This is a Kansas farm girl
country singer. Dooe. I'd like just happy to be there,
like oh my gosh, my dreams have come through. Brad
Paisley's like her boyfriend. This is like the Jessica Simpson
(12:05):
nick lche of country music, right minus the tuna fish
and all of a sudden, you know, she goes home
and the whole time, Shelley Wright is a lesbian and
tells no one except she's in a gay relationship, and
she knows or feels that if she tells her family,
if she tells her record label, that her whole life
(12:26):
is over. And talking to her, I was breathless listening
to her, because her version of fucking up was really
not being herself, and so much of the themes not Shelley.
That's one level of the double life. But I think
what I've learned is everyone I've spoken to has their
own micro version of it. Either they're not listening to
what their inner voice is telling them. To do. It's
(12:48):
like I got this opportunity to do X, and inside
you think I don't know if I should do this,
and on the outside you do it anyway, and then
when it doesn't work, your outside voice goes to your
inside voice and says, why did you let me do it?
And I think Shelley's story was, I mean, very powerful.
But in other ways you heard that from other guests,
(13:09):
Like you know Evan Handler. People know from Californication and
Sex and the City. He plays Harry Goldblatt, Charlotte's husband
in Sex and the City. And he's bald, right, and
he's known as this bald guy who's a brilliant actor.
But what people don't know is when you talk about
his fuck ups. He has some career moments and by
the way, some hilarious moments about when he has done
(13:29):
sex scenes. Like if anybody listening to this has seen
Evan Handler in any of these shows, some of the
conversation with him was so funny around that topic. But
what people don't know is when we talk about I
fucked that up or moments of self doubt. The reason
he's bald is because right on the eve of his
Broadway career exploding, and he was in Neil Simon's Six
Degrees of Separation. He was diagnosed with a rare cancer
(13:53):
and he had a ten percent chance of living. And
this is as a young guy. So the reason that
Evan Handler is bald is because his hair never grew
back after he conquered cancer. So we see one thing
in the celebrities, and they are all putting out there
through social media and pressed and red carpets, all of
their highlight real moments. But I'm learning so much listening
(14:16):
to these famous people talk about these human moments. It
makes me love them more and also feel slightly more normal.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
I mean, I would say for every conversation that I've heard,
I think I've listened to five of the episodes so far,
and in each one, these are people that I've heard interviewed,
in many cases dozens of times, and it feels like
such a different approach here and a different kind of conversation.
And I've loved that, and I assume that that was
part of the goal here in terms of doing that.
(14:44):
I'm curious, just in terms of the podcast format, why
do this as a podcast? What is it about podcasting
that you feel has helped this work in the way
that it has.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
I don't know another format where this would work. I
think podcasting, And as someone that listens to a lot
of podcasts, you know, there's a lot of podcasts that
talk about this thing happened, What do I do now? Right?
There are a lot of podcasts that I don't want
to say a lot. Everybody has their own thing, just
like there's a lot of songs and a lot of artists.
But what I wanted to figure out was one how
(15:13):
am I going to get people who are famous or
notable in a way to talk openly about their feelings
about failure, about falling down and being embarrassed. And podcasts,
you know, you can roll out of bed and be
in your sweatpants in the studio and I'm not worried
about glam squads, and I'm not worried about all of
a sudden there's a camera and then there's all these
(15:34):
other expectations. So I think podcasts has been a really
healthy platform where I can talk to people and they
feel less judged than maybe they would on a traditional
talk show. And I think that that has created a
safe place for people to feel comfortable talk. I mean
think of how many zooms you and I and everybody
(15:54):
listening to this have been on when COVID and everything
shifted in the world. And I think even in terms
of today's political climate, talking to one another is hard, ironically,
given how the proliferation of podcasts and conversations and dialogues,
and yet somehow, when we talk about these more sensitive
areas in US, there are few vehicles for this. And
(16:16):
I don't know why, but I feel like this format
is giving people a freedom to express and talk about
their feelings in a way. And maybe it's because they're
less judged than if they were on a talk show
being grilled under bright lights.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
You know, sometimes the word intimate is overused a bit
when describing podcasts, but that's probably because it's really accurate.
You know, there's something about that connection not only for
the person being interviewed and the conversation that's happening there,
but for the person's at home or the person on
their job or cooking dinner or whatever while they're listening,
feeling right there in it.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
And you guys have nailed it already.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
A lot of times podcasts take a while to sort
of hit that stride in terms of capturing that. But
each of the conversations that I've heard you have here
just really showcase this incredible connection and a willingness for
the talent or the people that you're talking to to
be more vulnerable. And so I think you're bringing something
that I hope is a benefit to people as they
(17:27):
listen to it. And speaking of that just in terms
of helping other people, not fully related to the podcast,
although you mentioned your kids earlier and the fact that
you watch your kids struggle a little bit and that
might have provided some inspiration behind all of this, we
shouldn't go without talking about the work that you and
your family have done to provide community support for families
with special needs, whether it be kids or other family members,
(17:50):
and one just wanted to say thanks for all the
work that you've done on that front. I know you
have two kids that are on the autism spectrum, and
I just think it's amazing the work you've done, as
busy as you are in your profession life to have
taken the time that you guys have taken to really
give back in every way you can.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
And I wanted to see if you could share the story.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
And you talk a lot about everything that you've achieved,
or you think about all the things that you've achieved,
but the thing that you're most proud of is one
of those moments where you get a chance to recognize
what you've accomplished for a group that really needs it.
Can you talk for a minute about the moment and
the Oval office and the opportunity that you got there.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
Well, first off, thank you for acknowledging that we're in
the entertainment business where you find a lot of folks
who are of means and get to a certain altitude
and they do charity work and then they have to
name it after themselves, and it's like, if your name
is John Smith, it's like the John Smith wing of
the And I like the anonymous element of it. And
(18:44):
one of the things that happened my oldest son has
no expressive language. So it's one in thirty five kids
are being diagnosed on the autism spectrum, and it's a
huge spectrum by the way they're including my younger son
is successful, going to college, driving, loves music and building
a life and his pace. And I would say to
anybody listening to this, you know, every journey is unique.
(19:05):
But with my older son, who's now in his early twenties.
There were very few resources and very few options. There
was no health insurance coverage. And it's a lot for
anybody listening to this who's for sure knows somebody who
has autism, a family member or a friend who has
a kid. It can be a lot of unknown territory
all at once. But where I got involved was I
(19:27):
had such an upset reaction to the idea that there
was no health insurance coverage for therapies for my son.
And even though we could afford it the way I
grew up, we couldn't have afforded it. And so as
I started to dig a little deeper, my wife and
I got active, and that led to getting involved in
talking to politicians, really, because to move the needle, you
(19:49):
have to talk to people. I've never thought of myself
getting attached to politicians. Eventually that led to a relationship
with President Obama long before he was President Obama and
he was doing your Senator Obama. And it's important to
note that I've talked to everybody. I've spent time with
Mitt Romney, I sat with Speaker Bayner. I'll talk to anybody,
But I really managed to be a part of a
(20:11):
lot of people and a lot of organizations collectively to
put this front and center and make it front and center,
by the way, with George W. Bush, with Obama and
continuing forward. But when this authorization for funding, this is
too long a story for anybody listened to. But they
invited me to go to the Oval Office for the
signing into law, and I said that I wanted to
(20:34):
go and bring my son. My son has a lot
of behavioral challenges and doesn't have expressive language, but I
felt like it was important that a person who's autistic
an individual is there. And I wouldn't have done anything
if it wasn't for my son. My son doesn't have
the language to tell me things, but he taught me
enough to find some courage in myself to try and
(20:56):
risk fucking up in the Yeah, I fucked that up
spirit of things, at least try so. When the President
signed the bill into law for the funding and he
gave the first pen to my son, it was better
than any hit song, any plaque that I've ever had,
And in my house, I don't have any of my plaques.
I'm grateful for all of them, but I don't have
any of them in our main living space. The only
(21:18):
thing I have is that pen on the wall. So
I appreciate you asking me about it, because even that
is like not easy to broadcast. And I was even
told when he was first diagnosed, some people in the
music industry said, you know, you shouldn't let people know
that you have a child with a disability because you
may not get work. They'll feel like you're distracted or
not reliable. And that fucked me up for a while,
and then thankfully I really turned the other corner, which
(21:41):
is like, not only am I going to talk about it,
but I want to do something about it. And just
so you know, iHeart and Z one hundred were probably
the beginning of that activism for me, the most powerful
supporters of awareness, including one of the early Z one
hundred jingle balls where they put the autism charities up
(22:01):
on the big screen. And so I'm really grateful to
iHeart and you know, Tom Pullman and Alyssa Pollock and
Elvis Durant and all of the people in the organization
that have always supported that part of my life. Actually
it's important that I say that, you know, whatever happens
with the podcast that has a lot more importance than that.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Well, I appreciate your saying that, and it's a no
brainer to get behind a mission like that. I have
loved talking to you about this. I do hope if
those watching or listening today, if you haven't checked it out, Yeah,
I fucked that up. There's so many great conversations. We've
talked about a few of them today. I really think
you'll enjoy the podcast. But Billy, thanks for taking some
time with us.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
We enjoyed it.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Thank you. Thanks for the support, and hopefully I get
better throughout the season because I'm still learning and fucking
up along the way, So I do appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Oh, it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Well, thanks for joining us today and we'll be back
with you next week.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Take Care.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Conversations is a production of iHeartRadio. You could find more
from the biggest names in podcasting on the iHeartRadio app
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Conal Byrne
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