June 17, 2024 • 20 mins
This episode of Podversations features Ed Helms, the host of SNAFU, and Will Pearson, President of iHeartPodcasts.
While Ed Helms is widely recognized for his comedic talent, did you know he's also a history enthusiast? Unlike typical chat shows, Ed Helms and the SNAFU team embark on season-long explorations of history's greatest screw-ups, many of which you probably haven't even heard about. As SNAFU gears up for its highly anticipated second season, you won't want to miss this exclusive preview! In his conversation with Will Pearson, Ed Helms offers insights into what's in store for Season 2, shares anecdotes from his audio journey, and, of course, sprinkles in some laughter while uncovering fascinating mishaps from history.
Tune in to this week’s Podversation to hear from SNAFU host Ed Helms and iHeartPodcasts President Will Pearson. You won’t want to miss it!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
iHeartRadio presents Podversations, a weekly discussion with the biggest names.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
And influencers and podcasting.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I want to learn the secret psychic rituals, Scrub stars
Zach Brath and Donald Fazing News before Every Fake Doctor
Is Real Friends Taping how Vice News parachutes into war
zones to rescue journalists from life threatening situations, or why Keegan,
Michael Key and Blumhouse believe three D audio.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Is the future of storytelling.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Whether you're a newbie trying to break into the podcast
game or an exec trying to refine your playbook, Podversations
is the easiest way to keep your pulse on the industry.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Welcome back to the iHeart podcast Speakers series. I'm wil Pearson,
President of iHeart Podcasts. As you know, each week we
like to get together with one of our favorite creators,
favorite hosts, favorite thinkers in the podcast space and talk
about what we've been up to and their show.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
And today is a real treat because.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
We actually are finally coming up on the second season
of snaff Who. The first season was a terrific hit
and we've been talking for many months about bringing it
back for a second season, been in development, but we
have the creator of this idea, the host of the show,
and Helms himself, Ed thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I am so glad to be here. Will thank you
so much.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
We've been talking about this one for a while. I
mean I feel like we've been talking about it for
almost the year. It was before the first season had
even ended, we were talking about this. But it's almost
finally here. But let's go back to the beginning. For
those that maybe didn't get a chance to check out
season one of snaff who bring us up to speed.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Tell us what.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Season one was all about and maybe the origin of
the idea to do this show in.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
The first past.
Speaker 5 (01:49):
Well, sure, I'll dip into the how it all sort
of started first. You know, I'm a big fan of podcasts.
I've been a consumer for a very very long time.
Jad At a bumrat, who is the creator of Radio Lab,
is a college buddy of mine, and so I was
a Radio Lab fan back when it was just a
(02:09):
WNYC show.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
And then of course he made.
Speaker 5 (02:13):
The early leap to podcasts and was one of the
first kind of early breakout podcast hits. In many ways,
Radio Lab redefined the genre and we take it for
granted now because because so much of podcasts sound design
borrows from Radio Lab and we certainly do, I mean
we outright steal just all of the sort of beautiful
(02:36):
textured audio collage style that Jad really pioneered on Radio
Lab and just so as a fan of that to
begin with. And then of course there was just this
explosion of celebrities kind of jumping into the podcast space,
and so much of it was just, you know, these
(02:56):
fun interview shows of celebrities chatting with their friends. And
I love those too, and I consume a lot of
those because it's just even people. I know, it's just
fun to hear hear people riffing and whatever. But then
I started to think, like, well, where do I fit
into this space somewhere, Like how do is there something
I can you know? And I was doing lots of
podcasts as a guest, but I just felt like maybe
(03:20):
there's something I didn't really want to just jump into
that interview mode because there just feels like a real
saturation of that. And so then I started talking, we
were talking to our friends at Film Nation and really
thought well, let's let's crack something. And then it was
just exploring like, well, what my real personal interests and
like what can we dive into, like what and something
(03:44):
really started to take shape, which was just sort of
my natural curiosity about history and my love of storytelling,
and these passions go back. I've carried those with me
my whole life, so it just was sort of a natural,
easy thing to think, Okay, well, yeah, let's get into
his and then oh, well, history is so full of
these crazy, kind of messed up stories that are uh
(04:07):
that that can be kind of cheeky and or instructive
in some cool interesting way.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
And then we came up with this idea.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
Oh, it's well, we'll we'll talk about history's greatest screw ups.
That'll be just like a fun way in uh and
a natural name for that was snaffoo, which is situation normal,
all fucked up.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
You hope you don't have to bleep me there.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
It's uh no, we insist on at least one F
bomb and interview.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
This is great, good you gave it to us.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
Yeah, well, on the show, it's only an implied F
bomb because it's we use the acronym but snapu. It
just it has a military origin as an acronym, and
just felt like the right exactly the right kind.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Of tone for us.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
So that's where it all kind of came about. We
jumped right in with season one. We we we started
digging into what could be a great story to kick
off this show. And as you know, every season is
a deep dive into one story. It's not like every
episode is a different thing. So season one we dedicated
(05:14):
entirely to this really wild and fascinating, very darkly humorous,
but also terrifying story, which is the story of Able.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Larcher in nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Able Archer is a NATO military exercise that happened every year,
and it's basically NATO kind of like doing massive troop
movements and military equipment movements just to sort of practice.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
What they would do in the event of a war.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
This was an annual exercise, it was well known, but
this particular year there were enough kind of weird things
going on that the Soviets started to clock Able Archer
as maybe something more than just a military exercise. Maybe
NATO is staging a real invasion of the Soviet Union,
(06:13):
and so tensions were really ratcheting up. What's wild about
this is that this was only declassified a few years ago,
so the public really was not aware of any of this.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
As it was happening.
Speaker 5 (06:24):
The Soviets start to get a little skittish and they
ratchet up their military posture, their nuclear posture. NATO clocks
that and they're like, okay, now what's going on and
NATO's you know, in America in particular, our military and
nuclear posture gets ratcheted up.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Def Con is our defense condition, which.
Speaker 5 (06:47):
We all know from the movie War Games, that starts
ticking up, and basically it's this standoff that a lot
of historians believe is the closest we came to a
nuclear holocaust, and we dodged it by some really insightful
moves by people in key positions.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
But man, was it scary how close we were. And again,
nobody knew at the time. So it's fun.
Speaker 5 (07:12):
In the podcast, we really explore sort of what's going on,
like what public officials are saying at the time for
what's actually going on, and you get to kind of
piece this puzzle together that we really can only construct
now with hindsight. So anyway, it's really fun. Like I said,
it's darkly humorous and just fascinating. We had lots of
(07:34):
great guests on that historians and experts in various capacities.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Well, I remember the first time you were telling us
about it, and again, because this had not been declassified,
you know, until many, many years later. It was one
of those things where were like, how the hell did
we not know about this? Like, how did that happen
for you know, so long ago. I'm also a history
lover and knew nothing about this. And then also you
point this out and the series, you know, basically just
(08:03):
how almost true. The movie Wargames was just this whole concept,
this idea that the world could have, you know, maybe
an exaggeration come to an end, but in some ways
definitely hugely changed the course of history if things had
gone just a little bit different and all by accident.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
But I loved it for that.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Yeah, And what's super fun is I actually interviewed Matthew
Broderick for this series. Because Wargames came out in the
spring of nineteen eighty three and Able Archer eighty three.
This whole incident I'm talking about happened in the fall
in October of that year, the same year, and it's
almost it's like reality, you know, imitating fiction, and no
(08:44):
one involved with wargames had any clue either.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
So I got to interview Matthew Broderick and he was
really funny. He was like, Wow, this.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
Is the first I've heard of any of that, and
it's identical to his movie.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
When this podcast came out, was met with a ton
of critical acclaim and sort of saw this growing audience
building around it and excitement around that. I personally didn't
know that you were a history fan, you know, having
followed your career and everything. So I think part of
the charm of it, in fun of it was fans
getting to know that you are a big history fan
in fact, and it was just really fun to see
(09:36):
what the reception was to this. So I think, as
you made that choice, do I go the chat show
path like I've watched so many of my friends go,
which again, there's some great shows out there, or do
I carve out my own space. I feel like you
found a really nice path for yourself. So do you
do you feel like you are now a history podcast
or is that what we should call you from this
point on?
Speaker 3 (09:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
I'm certainly happy to roll with that. I feel like
we transcend history a little bit more. I feel like
it's not just I wouldn't characterize it as just a
history podcast, because we really we do talk about these
these historical events and stories, and I'd love to get
into season two in a minute.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
We really kind of also delve into how what we
can learn from these.
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Things, how they affect the present, how we're thinking about
them now, and what the sort of long term fallout
was from these events, And in that way, it's it's
almost a little bit philosophical too. So I only bok
it at history podcast because it feels a little too limiting.
But it's really just great storytelling and fun. You know,
(10:43):
there's fun personalities. We bring in lots of experts and
academics and we choose them carefully to really bring a
lot of life to the show, to each show, so it's.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
It's highly entertaining.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
And then of course the sound design that we steal
from Radio Labs makes it a really fun.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
But your friends with jazz, so it feels like it's
okay to just go ahead and borrow whatever you need to,
but that it is wild that you guys go way back,
because I don't think there's a better person to know
in terms of the OG category.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
But I agree. I think you guys bring a spirit
to it.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
It's not to necessarily just, you know, make light of
all of these things. But when things are this absurd,
sometimes the best way in is through this approach of
just again acknowledging how absurd this whole situation was. And
I think you present it in a way that does
make it so highly entertaining. But that leads us to
the second season. So let's talk a little bit about that.
(11:38):
I know it's not easy when to follow a successful
first season trying to decide what do we cover next,
but you guys were on it.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
You guys were ready with the next idea. Tell us
a little bit about it.
Speaker 5 (11:48):
Yeah, So I remember seeing you at an event in
Austin and I couldn't tell you yet. I was like,
I want to tell you so bad, but we're still
trying to get clearances. We were still negotiating, but we
basically just got incredibly lucky. So I'll tell you the
sort of basics of the story. So in nineteen seventy one,
(12:10):
we're sort of at the height of anti war protests.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
The Vietnam War is raging, and a.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
Lot of the anti war protesters as well as protesters
in lots of different areas, from civil rights, women's liberation.
It was a very active protest time in America, and
a lot of people in the protest world were feeling
like the FBI was breathing down their necks, and not
(12:39):
in a sort of helpful way or in a sort
of law enforcement way, but maybe more of a sketchy
harassment kind of way. A few citizens in the town
of Media, Pennsylvania, which is a suburb of Philadelphia, and
Philadelphia at the time was the sort of one of
the hot spots of the protest movement. A few citizens decided, well,
(13:01):
you know, we're gonna find out for sure if the
FBI is really messing with us. We don't trust the FBI.
We want Jay Edgar Hoover is feeling real sketchy, and
so we're going to take matters into our own hands.
What they did is they planned this very elaborate heist.
And these are not professional thieves or burglars. These are
(13:22):
just passionate citizens, and they plan this very elaborate heist.
They break into the FBI office they're in Media, Pennsylvania,
right outside of Philadelphia, and they steal a huge trove
of documents. Then they start to leak these documents, and
(13:42):
they leak the documents to a few different journalists and congressmen.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
The only journalists with.
Speaker 5 (13:48):
The guts to actually take this on and try to
publish this was a journalist named Betty Medsker at the
Washington Post. And she and her editor Ben Bradley, and
and the leadership at the Washington Post, they all they
I think, I think they were all pretty rattled, but like,
what do we do with these are stolen documents from
the FBI? But they were explosive and they really these
(14:11):
documents really told the story of how Jaedgar Hoover was
running an intelligence operation that was less about law enforcement
and more about harassment and.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Surveillance of just his political enemies.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
And that is obviously extremely unconstitutional, extremely sketchy, and not
what Americans think of when we want to think the
best of our law enforcement institutions. So these citizens basically
exposed Jaedgar Hoover's very sketchy activity and it was a
massive fallout. It led to the church hearings, which we
(14:49):
go into which is really where operations like co Intel pro,
which was the FBI's operation to really try to intimidate
and dismantle the civil rights movement and the anti Vietnam
War movement, as well as the CIA at the time.
And we just touch on this, but the CIA also
had their own operation called Operation Chaos, really doing the
(15:11):
same thing, and it's some scary stuff. It's basically, where
do we as a country draw the line between the
need for secrecy to perform, like you know, meaningful law
enforcement and the abuse that too much secrecy can allow
and even foster if it's unchecked.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
So it was the first time.
Speaker 5 (15:35):
It was because of these citizen activists and who committed
this burglary. Is because of that act that Congress really
started to created the oversight apparatus of American intelligence institutions.
So the fallout is it's epic, and it's a really
incredible story of courage and bravery and perseverance. They were
(15:58):
never caught. They were so they were so disciplined, and
their planning was so excessive they were never caught and
by not being pros yeah, exactly. And it wasn't until
years later that a couple of them told Betty Medsker
that the journalists that they were the ones who did it,
and they were able to sort of come clean because
(16:20):
it was clear the FBI had closed the case. And
so then we got all of the burglars who are
still alive. Some of them have passed away, but all
of them participated in our podcast.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
We spoke to them.
Speaker 5 (16:34):
Betty Medsker is a very strong presence throughout the podcast.
She's been really helpful with us in this in the
from an editorial standpoint, and just a great ally through
the process. We couldn't have done it without her. And
it's just super exciting. It's an incredibly cool story. I'm
so proud of it, and uh, we've been deep in
(16:56):
production and it's coming out soon.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
It's not an easy one to pull together, I have
to imagine, because it's one of those where you do
have the good problem of so much information that you
could this could have been an ongoing series for years,
you know, just because as you said, you have these
little side stories when you're talking about the CIA having
similar kinds of operations. I imagine as you were trying
(17:22):
to figure out how to pull this together into a
limited series, it took an enormous amount of discipline just
to sort of corral the right amount of information to
say this is the story we're going to try to
tell over this this period of time.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
But was that a challenge?
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Absolutely?
Speaker 5 (17:37):
And I mean I'm like the face and the voice
of this show. But it is an incredible team effort
with our friends at Film Nation and our partners at
Gilded Audio, we have just have like a really tight
knit and like you said, very disciplined team of producers
and writers, and we're just on these zooms in these
(17:58):
recording sessions and editing together, making a lot of these
decisions together.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
That's so much of the fun.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
You know.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
For me, I love the collaboration and uh, and we
really do have an incredible team those decisions like what
do which, which sort of rabbits do we chase because
there are so many tendrils to the story.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
It really, Betty was it was.
Speaker 5 (18:20):
Instrumental in some of that kind of helping us stay
focused on what to talk about.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
But also there's a gut feeling.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
A lot of times you're kind of like you're weaving
into the story and you're like, well, this is where
this is where we really want to go, this is
this is the info I know I want to know
more about.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
So I think I'm going to go here for the
audience's sake.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
But yeah, it's it's wild, and you're right, I feel
like we could do like six more seasons on just
the side stories from this.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
We'll leave that as a tease maybe for we won't
get into season three and and beyond because this is
going to be an amazing one.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I've only been allowed to hear snippets so far.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
You guys are really good at being secretive as well,
which I respect that that's part of sort of being
in character with all of this.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
But no, it's going to be fantastic.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
First episode drops June twenty six, the trailer will be
out before that, but it's going to be so, so,
so good. And appreciate the dedication, as you mentioned the
team at Film Nation, the team at GIL.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
It's just the dedication to getting this right is tremendous.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
And your dedication to making sure that it's told really
well is terrific as well.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
But Ed, congrats on the success of season one.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
I know season two is going to be just as
big of a hit, but we're thrilled to be working
with you on it.
Speaker 5 (19:34):
Thanks Will, I'm so proud to just be on your
platform and cranking this out and this season is it's
really riveting. You know, season one had a lot of
was I think more comedy forward. This one's kind of
a little more intense storytelling, but there's certainly some lots
(19:54):
of levity mixed in.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
But it's a great one. I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
It's good. That's good. We can't wait to hear it
for everybody again and listening.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
Make sure to check out season one of Snap Who,
but get it out of the way before June twenty
sixth so you can listen to season two but ed.
Thanks again and thanks everybody for tuning in.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
We'll be back again next week.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Conversations is a production of iHeartRadio. You could find more
from the biggest names in podcasting on the iHeartRadio app
or wherever you get your podcasts.
iHeartRadio presents Podversations, a weekly discussion with the biggest names.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
And influencers and podcasting.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I want to learn the secret psychic rituals, Scrub stars
Zach Brath and Donald Fazing News before Every Fake Doctor
Is Real Friends Taping how Vice News parachutes into war
zones to rescue journalists from life threatening situations, or why Keegan,
Michael Key and Blumhouse believe three D audio.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Is the future of storytelling.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Whether you're a newbie trying to break into the podcast
game or an exec trying to refine your playbook, Podversations
is the easiest way to keep your pulse on the industry.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Welcome back to the iHeart podcast Speakers series. I'm wil Pearson,
President of iHeart Podcasts. As you know, each week we
like to get together with one of our favorite creators,
favorite hosts, favorite thinkers in the podcast space and talk
about what we've been up to and their show.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
And today is a real treat because.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
We actually are finally coming up on the second season
of snaff Who. The first season was a terrific hit
and we've been talking for many months about bringing it
back for a second season, been in development, but we
have the creator of this idea, the host of the show,
and Helms himself, Ed thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I am so glad to be here. Will thank you
so much.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
We've been talking about this one for a while. I
mean I feel like we've been talking about it for
almost the year. It was before the first season had
even ended, we were talking about this. But it's almost
finally here. But let's go back to the beginning. For
those that maybe didn't get a chance to check out
season one of snaff who bring us up to speed.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Tell us what.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Season one was all about and maybe the origin of
the idea to do this show in.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
The first past.
Speaker 5 (01:49):
Well, sure, I'll dip into the how it all sort
of started first. You know, I'm a big fan of podcasts.
I've been a consumer for a very very long time.
Jad At a bumrat, who is the creator of Radio Lab,
is a college buddy of mine, and so I was
a Radio Lab fan back when it was just a
(02:09):
WNYC show.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
And then of course he made.
Speaker 5 (02:13):
The early leap to podcasts and was one of the
first kind of early breakout podcast hits. In many ways,
Radio Lab redefined the genre and we take it for
granted now because because so much of podcasts sound design
borrows from Radio Lab and we certainly do, I mean
we outright steal just all of the sort of beautiful
(02:36):
textured audio collage style that Jad really pioneered on Radio
Lab and just so as a fan of that to
begin with. And then of course there was just this
explosion of celebrities kind of jumping into the podcast space,
and so much of it was just, you know, these
(02:56):
fun interview shows of celebrities chatting with their friends. And
I love those too, and I consume a lot of
those because it's just even people. I know, it's just
fun to hear hear people riffing and whatever. But then
I started to think, like, well, where do I fit
into this space somewhere, Like how do is there something
I can you know? And I was doing lots of
podcasts as a guest, but I just felt like maybe
(03:20):
there's something I didn't really want to just jump into
that interview mode because there just feels like a real
saturation of that. And so then I started talking, we
were talking to our friends at Film Nation and really
thought well, let's let's crack something. And then it was
just exploring like, well, what my real personal interests and
like what can we dive into, like what and something
(03:44):
really started to take shape, which was just sort of
my natural curiosity about history and my love of storytelling,
and these passions go back. I've carried those with me
my whole life, so it just was sort of a natural,
easy thing to think, Okay, well, yeah, let's get into
his and then oh, well, history is so full of
these crazy, kind of messed up stories that are uh
(04:07):
that that can be kind of cheeky and or instructive
in some cool interesting way.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
And then we came up with this idea.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
Oh, it's well, we'll we'll talk about history's greatest screw ups.
That'll be just like a fun way in uh and
a natural name for that was snaffoo, which is situation normal,
all fucked up.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
You hope you don't have to bleep me there.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
It's uh no, we insist on at least one F
bomb and interview.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
This is great, good you gave it to us.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
Yeah, well, on the show, it's only an implied F
bomb because it's we use the acronym but snapu. It
just it has a military origin as an acronym, and
just felt like the right exactly the right kind.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Of tone for us.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
So that's where it all kind of came about. We
jumped right in with season one. We we we started
digging into what could be a great story to kick
off this show. And as you know, every season is
a deep dive into one story. It's not like every
episode is a different thing. So season one we dedicated
(05:14):
entirely to this really wild and fascinating, very darkly humorous,
but also terrifying story, which is the story of Able.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Larcher in nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Able Archer is a NATO military exercise that happened every year,
and it's basically NATO kind of like doing massive troop
movements and military equipment movements just to sort of practice.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
What they would do in the event of a war.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
This was an annual exercise, it was well known, but
this particular year there were enough kind of weird things
going on that the Soviets started to clock Able Archer
as maybe something more than just a military exercise. Maybe
NATO is staging a real invasion of the Soviet Union,
(06:13):
and so tensions were really ratcheting up. What's wild about
this is that this was only declassified a few years ago,
so the public really was not aware of any of this.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
As it was happening.
Speaker 5 (06:24):
The Soviets start to get a little skittish and they
ratchet up their military posture, their nuclear posture. NATO clocks
that and they're like, okay, now what's going on and
NATO's you know, in America in particular, our military and
nuclear posture gets ratcheted up.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Def Con is our defense condition, which.
Speaker 5 (06:47):
We all know from the movie War Games, that starts
ticking up, and basically it's this standoff that a lot
of historians believe is the closest we came to a
nuclear holocaust, and we dodged it by some really insightful
moves by people in key positions.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
But man, was it scary how close we were. And again,
nobody knew at the time. So it's fun.
Speaker 5 (07:12):
In the podcast, we really explore sort of what's going on,
like what public officials are saying at the time for
what's actually going on, and you get to kind of
piece this puzzle together that we really can only construct
now with hindsight. So anyway, it's really fun. Like I said,
it's darkly humorous and just fascinating. We had lots of
(07:34):
great guests on that historians and experts in various capacities.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Well, I remember the first time you were telling us
about it, and again, because this had not been declassified,
you know, until many, many years later. It was one
of those things where were like, how the hell did
we not know about this? Like, how did that happen
for you know, so long ago. I'm also a history
lover and knew nothing about this. And then also you
point this out and the series, you know, basically just
(08:03):
how almost true. The movie Wargames was just this whole concept,
this idea that the world could have, you know, maybe
an exaggeration come to an end, but in some ways
definitely hugely changed the course of history if things had
gone just a little bit different and all by accident.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
But I loved it for that.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Yeah, And what's super fun is I actually interviewed Matthew
Broderick for this series. Because Wargames came out in the
spring of nineteen eighty three and Able Archer eighty three.
This whole incident I'm talking about happened in the fall
in October of that year, the same year, and it's
almost it's like reality, you know, imitating fiction, and no
(08:44):
one involved with wargames had any clue either.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
So I got to interview Matthew Broderick and he was
really funny. He was like, Wow, this.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
Is the first I've heard of any of that, and
it's identical to his movie.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
When this podcast came out, was met with a ton
of critical acclaim and sort of saw this growing audience
building around it and excitement around that. I personally didn't
know that you were a history fan, you know, having
followed your career and everything. So I think part of
the charm of it, in fun of it was fans
getting to know that you are a big history fan
in fact, and it was just really fun to see
(09:36):
what the reception was to this. So I think, as
you made that choice, do I go the chat show
path like I've watched so many of my friends go,
which again, there's some great shows out there, or do
I carve out my own space. I feel like you
found a really nice path for yourself. So do you
do you feel like you are now a history podcast
or is that what we should call you from this
point on?
Speaker 3 (09:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
I'm certainly happy to roll with that. I feel like
we transcend history a little bit more. I feel like
it's not just I wouldn't characterize it as just a
history podcast, because we really we do talk about these
these historical events and stories, and I'd love to get
into season two in a minute.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
We really kind of also delve into how what we
can learn from these.
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Things, how they affect the present, how we're thinking about
them now, and what the sort of long term fallout
was from these events, And in that way, it's it's
almost a little bit philosophical too. So I only bok
it at history podcast because it feels a little too limiting.
But it's really just great storytelling and fun. You know,
(10:43):
there's fun personalities. We bring in lots of experts and
academics and we choose them carefully to really bring a
lot of life to the show, to each show, so it's.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
It's highly entertaining.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
And then of course the sound design that we steal
from Radio Labs makes it a really fun.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
But your friends with jazz, so it feels like it's
okay to just go ahead and borrow whatever you need to,
but that it is wild that you guys go way back,
because I don't think there's a better person to know
in terms of the OG category.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
But I agree. I think you guys bring a spirit
to it.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
It's not to necessarily just, you know, make light of
all of these things. But when things are this absurd,
sometimes the best way in is through this approach of
just again acknowledging how absurd this whole situation was. And
I think you present it in a way that does
make it so highly entertaining. But that leads us to
the second season. So let's talk a little bit about that.
(11:38):
I know it's not easy when to follow a successful
first season trying to decide what do we cover next,
but you guys were on it.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
You guys were ready with the next idea. Tell us
a little bit about it.
Speaker 5 (11:48):
Yeah, So I remember seeing you at an event in
Austin and I couldn't tell you yet. I was like,
I want to tell you so bad, but we're still
trying to get clearances. We were still negotiating, but we
basically just got incredibly lucky. So I'll tell you the
sort of basics of the story. So in nineteen seventy one,
(12:10):
we're sort of at the height of anti war protests.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
The Vietnam War is raging, and a.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
Lot of the anti war protesters as well as protesters
in lots of different areas, from civil rights, women's liberation.
It was a very active protest time in America, and
a lot of people in the protest world were feeling
like the FBI was breathing down their necks, and not
(12:39):
in a sort of helpful way or in a sort
of law enforcement way, but maybe more of a sketchy
harassment kind of way. A few citizens in the town
of Media, Pennsylvania, which is a suburb of Philadelphia, and
Philadelphia at the time was the sort of one of
the hot spots of the protest movement. A few citizens decided, well,
(13:01):
you know, we're gonna find out for sure if the
FBI is really messing with us. We don't trust the FBI.
We want Jay Edgar Hoover is feeling real sketchy, and
so we're going to take matters into our own hands.
What they did is they planned this very elaborate heist.
And these are not professional thieves or burglars. These are
(13:22):
just passionate citizens, and they plan this very elaborate heist.
They break into the FBI office they're in Media, Pennsylvania,
right outside of Philadelphia, and they steal a huge trove
of documents. Then they start to leak these documents, and
(13:42):
they leak the documents to a few different journalists and congressmen.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
The only journalists with.
Speaker 5 (13:48):
The guts to actually take this on and try to
publish this was a journalist named Betty Medsker at the
Washington Post. And she and her editor Ben Bradley, and
and the leadership at the Washington Post, they all they
I think, I think they were all pretty rattled, but like,
what do we do with these are stolen documents from
the FBI? But they were explosive and they really these
(14:11):
documents really told the story of how Jaedgar Hoover was
running an intelligence operation that was less about law enforcement
and more about harassment and.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Surveillance of just his political enemies.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
And that is obviously extremely unconstitutional, extremely sketchy, and not
what Americans think of when we want to think the
best of our law enforcement institutions. So these citizens basically
exposed Jaedgar Hoover's very sketchy activity and it was a
massive fallout. It led to the church hearings, which we
(14:49):
go into which is really where operations like co Intel pro,
which was the FBI's operation to really try to intimidate
and dismantle the civil rights movement and the anti Vietnam
War movement, as well as the CIA at the time.
And we just touch on this, but the CIA also
had their own operation called Operation Chaos, really doing the
(15:11):
same thing, and it's some scary stuff. It's basically, where
do we as a country draw the line between the
need for secrecy to perform, like you know, meaningful law
enforcement and the abuse that too much secrecy can allow
and even foster if it's unchecked.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
So it was the first time.
Speaker 5 (15:35):
It was because of these citizen activists and who committed
this burglary. Is because of that act that Congress really
started to created the oversight apparatus of American intelligence institutions.
So the fallout is it's epic, and it's a really
incredible story of courage and bravery and perseverance. They were
(15:58):
never caught. They were so they were so disciplined, and
their planning was so excessive they were never caught and
by not being pros yeah, exactly. And it wasn't until
years later that a couple of them told Betty Medsker
that the journalists that they were the ones who did it,
and they were able to sort of come clean because
(16:20):
it was clear the FBI had closed the case. And
so then we got all of the burglars who are
still alive. Some of them have passed away, but all
of them participated in our podcast.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
We spoke to them.
Speaker 5 (16:34):
Betty Medsker is a very strong presence throughout the podcast.
She's been really helpful with us in this in the
from an editorial standpoint, and just a great ally through
the process. We couldn't have done it without her. And
it's just super exciting. It's an incredibly cool story. I'm
so proud of it, and uh, we've been deep in
(16:56):
production and it's coming out soon.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
It's not an easy one to pull together, I have
to imagine, because it's one of those where you do
have the good problem of so much information that you
could this could have been an ongoing series for years,
you know, just because as you said, you have these
little side stories when you're talking about the CIA having
similar kinds of operations. I imagine as you were trying
(17:22):
to figure out how to pull this together into a
limited series, it took an enormous amount of discipline just
to sort of corral the right amount of information to
say this is the story we're going to try to
tell over this this period of time.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
But was that a challenge?
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Absolutely?
Speaker 5 (17:37):
And I mean I'm like the face and the voice
of this show. But it is an incredible team effort
with our friends at Film Nation and our partners at
Gilded Audio, we have just have like a really tight
knit and like you said, very disciplined team of producers
and writers, and we're just on these zooms in these
(17:58):
recording sessions and editing together, making a lot of these
decisions together.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
That's so much of the fun.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
You know.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
For me, I love the collaboration and uh, and we
really do have an incredible team those decisions like what
do which, which sort of rabbits do we chase because
there are so many tendrils to the story.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
It really, Betty was it was.
Speaker 5 (18:20):
Instrumental in some of that kind of helping us stay
focused on what to talk about.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
But also there's a gut feeling.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
A lot of times you're kind of like you're weaving
into the story and you're like, well, this is where
this is where we really want to go, this is
this is the info I know I want to know
more about.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
So I think I'm going to go here for the
audience's sake.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
But yeah, it's it's wild, and you're right, I feel
like we could do like six more seasons on just
the side stories from this.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
We'll leave that as a tease maybe for we won't
get into season three and and beyond because this is
going to be an amazing one.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I've only been allowed to hear snippets so far.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
You guys are really good at being secretive as well,
which I respect that that's part of sort of being
in character with all of this.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
But no, it's going to be fantastic.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
First episode drops June twenty six, the trailer will be
out before that, but it's going to be so, so,
so good. And appreciate the dedication, as you mentioned the
team at Film Nation, the team at GIL.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
It's just the dedication to getting this right is tremendous.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
And your dedication to making sure that it's told really
well is terrific as well.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
But Ed, congrats on the success of season one.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
I know season two is going to be just as
big of a hit, but we're thrilled to be working
with you on it.
Speaker 5 (19:34):
Thanks Will, I'm so proud to just be on your
platform and cranking this out and this season is it's
really riveting. You know, season one had a lot of
was I think more comedy forward. This one's kind of
a little more intense storytelling, but there's certainly some lots
(19:54):
of levity mixed in.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
But it's a great one. I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
It's good. That's good. We can't wait to hear it
for everybody again and listening.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
Make sure to check out season one of Snap Who,
but get it out of the way before June twenty
sixth so you can listen to season two but ed.
Thanks again and thanks everybody for tuning in.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
We'll be back again next week.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Conversations is a production of iHeartRadio. You could find more
from the biggest names in podcasting on the iHeartRadio app
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Conal Byrne
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