April 15, 2024 • 23 mins
This episode of Podversations features Sam Fragoso and iHeartPodcasts host, Holly Frey…
Sam Fragoso is host of the podcast Talk Easy, a weekly series of intimate conversations with artists, activists, and politicians. As an extremely talented and compassionate interviewer, we couldn't wait to get him in the interview-ee seat, and it did not disappoint. Sam shares with Holly his preparation process for an interview, his tactics for scoring some of the most interesting names out there, and how he feels about shedding a tear during an interview (you will have to tune in to find out!).
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
iHeartRadio presents Conversations, a weekly discussion with the biggest names
and influencers in podcasting. Wanta will learn the secret psycho
rituals scrubstars Zach Braff and Donald Beason used before Every
Fake Doctor's Real Friends taping, how Vice News parachutes into
war zones to rescue journalists from life threatening situations. For
(00:24):
why Pagan, Michael Key, and Blumhouse believe three D audio
is the future of storytelling.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Whether you're a newbie trying to break.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Into the podcast game or an exec trying to refine
your playbook, Conversations is the easiest way.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
To keep your pulse on the industry. Welcome to the
iHeart podcast Speaker series. I Am not Will Pearson, I
am in Stoneholly Fry. I host Stuff you mist in
History Class and Criminalia and each week, as you know,
(00:57):
this series is about having a conversation with creator and
we'll talk about podcasts and podcasting. And today I am
lucky enough to get to spend time with Sam Fragoso,
whose podcast Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso features an array
of startlingly famous and interesting guests having very intimate conversations
(01:18):
which Sam is really good at. A listening. So Sam,
thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
What an intro. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Without trying to sound pejorative in anyway, you are a
whipper snapper. You are very young to have the career
that you've had and how impressive it is, and I
would love for you to just do kind of the
brief run through of your short brought impressive trajectory from
creative director at the Roxy Theater, which I heard you
(01:46):
tell the long form podcast you were bad at, through
print journalism and then into podcasting.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
I wasn't that bad. I wasn't that good either, but.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
I was basically to bring a full Pushkin glaud welding
into it.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
The Roxy.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Time, where I was a credit director was kind of
like a Beatles and Hamburg thing where I had to
do a lot of the only thing I was good at.
I'll say I was doing a lot of on stage
Q and as, and I had to do I don't know,
somewhere between like five and seven a week, which is
just an insane amount of time to spend in front
of an audience trying to entertain them asking questions. So
(02:29):
then from there I kind of pivoted into podcasting. I
had done some magazine journalism before that, a little bit
after where I'd done interviews for Vanity Fair and Vice
and MPR. So it's just kind of a natural dovetailing
of interests.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
You did something that I love because I always encourage
people to do this, which is, you shouldn't wait for
someone to give you permission or offer you a deal
to start a podcast. You started Talk Easy on your own,
on your personal credit card, with no real safety net
to it. Are you a risk taker by nature? Or
(03:05):
was that just the one trajectory you felt like you
had to follow.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
I would say the bank companies would say yes for sure,
based on the statements.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Yeah, I think definitely. It's weird.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
You know, the credit cards, they don't call them like, Wow,
we're really excited about your fledgling podcast.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
We'll let you. We'll let you pay that off and
do time.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Wants some more equipment, No problem, big.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Yes, yes, go ahead and get that scarlet and the
road microphone.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Yeah. I guess so.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
I don't know I thought about it like that before,
but I think I felt like I had enough validation
in other arenas like the roxy, like writing for those
magazines and stuff, and enough online response that felt encouraging,
that it felt like it was a risk, but one
built on a foundation that I could understand that I
(03:55):
could like grow something from.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
It wasn't like I'd.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
Never done an interview for one, I just take got
the MX and see what happens.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
We've heard that podcast, not yours, but we've heard those podcasts.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
I'm sure.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
I'm sure they have, and I hope they've worked out,
just simply from an economic point of view.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
You also, my understanding is you almost ended your podcast
during the pandemic, but you didn't, thankfully. What was that
moment of decision like and how did it end up
changing kind of the tone of things for you?
Speaker 4 (04:27):
I'm sure like many people listening the when the pandemic happened,
I think I felt I just thought, what is it
really useful for anyone to hear an interview with like
an actor? No no offense to actors or filmmakers, But
it just felt not purposeful. It didn't feel when when
(04:49):
the world was crumbling. I wasn't like, yeah, make sure
we do an episode with Dan Levy about Shit's Creek,
like that didn't seem essential. Although I did been Shit's
creat turning the pandemic me too, Yeah, like most people.
So I don't know why that arithmetic didn't work out,
But that moment was I think a way of the
(05:12):
show opening the door it stores up to people that
weren't only in the entertainment space. So like we had
more writers on we had I think at the time,
better or Rourke and Numb Chomsky and Elizabeth Gilbert I
think came on around that time, just just opening up
the aperture a little bit in a way that we
(05:32):
should have done in retrospect way earlier. And I'm so
glad that we did, because since then, I do think
the show is unique in its wide variety of guests and.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Interest Speaking of your wide variety of guests and interests,
everyone who interviews you always marvels at the guests that
you get, and because you do get really amazing people,
I feel like I have to ask you about that.
But I have two questions actually, So the first is
obviously how do you get such amazing guests? Which is
an interesting question, But what I really want to know
is what is your actual hit rate? Like what is
(06:04):
your ratio of nose to yes is? And I know
you're super persistent, but do you ever just give up
and we're like, that person's never coming, we should stop
wasting that energy.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
I've never given up. Some people have passed away by
the time we try to get them again and again
and again.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
That has happened.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
That's very tragic, Like Christopher Palmer was someone I wanted
to have on. So I think, short of death, I
don't think we've ever given up, which is a bleak,
hopefully funny answer to people listening.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And we have an.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Excel sheet that says, like, we asked this person six
months ago.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
It's kind of time.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
It's sort of like a doctor your annual check in,
making sure you're okay. Do you want to do this?
I think the hit rate, I mean we've received three
nots this morning, so I think that tells you the story.
But I mean we're also pitched an abundance of people,
so I think we spend a lot of time saying
no for the most part at this point, which was
(06:59):
not true in the I mean that was like, that's
only recently, you're in the last two or three years.
But we don't get that many know's anymore. I think
it's a lot of not right now, which is much
better than please stop emailing us, and for that we
are grateful.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
That's interesting that you mentioned that. Now you know you
have this this reversal where people are pitching you, how
do you balance that because I know you're super passionate
about your work and you're going after people you think
are interesting. So when it's coming, the flow is happening
in the other direction. How do you sort those out
to make sure the people that you are saying yes
(07:36):
to feel exactly right in the tone of your show
and the level of interest and excitement that you and
your team need to have for it, versus the people
that you have to kind of gently go like, this
is not a good fit.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
I think the thing you said it's about excitement. Just
because it wasn't our idea and it was a publicist
idea doesn't mean that we're not like on principal getaway,
you know, we have a kind of like internal rubric,
and it's really is the person's life story interesting? Have
they gone through something recently or have they made work
about something that is personal to their life that feels
(08:11):
connective both to the art that they're putting into the
world and to the lives that they're leading, which usually
makes an interesting podcast. Have they done a lot of
varied and interesting work, Like, we don't have a lot
of people under the age of twenty five for that reason.
And it's not because we're against gen Z. It's just
oftentimes I don't think the format is conducive to people under.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Like twenty five. And we've had exceptions.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
The Lord came on and was great, and we have
a few folks coming on this year that are under
twenty five that are incredibly talented musicians and writers. It's
not binding, but yeah, I think it's it's really though,
above fame, because people really press this a lot. Fame
is not enough, I think, and I think fame is
not enough for the listener. Frankly, it may get them
(09:00):
in the room and in the door, but it will
not keep them there if they're not interesting and willing
to go to a place conversationally that is interesting. So
that's kind of the barometer, you know, the letmus Desk
would put.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
I have to chuckle a little because per your rules,
you've been doing this for all since twenty sixteen, you
would not have been old or interesting enough to be
on your own show initially.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Yeah, which is why I never did an interview with myself.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
You also mentioned in several interviews, the most recent one
I listened to was the one you did with Max
Linsky for long Form, that you plan everything then you're
in your interviews. You have a roadmap laid out and
you're ready to deviate from it if you want to
as conversation flows. And I know that takes a ton
of prep and I feel like I would be dropping
(09:50):
the ball if I did not ask you what that
prep process is. Like, where do you start digging in
on somebody? That sounds more aggressive than I'm meant it to. Yeah,
but investigating like you know their story.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
Yeah, that sounds like I'm like solving the zodiac mercer.
I have a big board and the string moving around.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
I mean, it's it is an intensive process, and I
start with I mean, I kind of go chronologically if
I can, if we have the time to do that,
and just go from the earliest press clippings that we
can find and then start building what is basically this
is your life document that's called the brief. And it's
(10:34):
like if anything that basically that has been public record,
we have it written down in the chronology of their
respective lives, and then from there, once once the bronze
stroke is covered, I think we start going what's the
kind of three act structure of an episode. It's usually
the most recent work starts at the top. Second act
(10:54):
is is life story, what are the sort of formative
moments that have shaped them, have brought them to this place?
Speaker 3 (11:02):
And then the third act is usually their own.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Personal philosophies that have God in both their life and
their work, or are speaking to a more social political
moment that is worth kind of covering in both broad
and specific strokes.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
This all evidence is pretty clearly that your work ethic
is legit. Like you clearly put in the time, this
isn't something you're the least bit kambal you're about. Have
you always been like that? Because not everybody has that?
Is that natural? Or did you have to train your
own work discipline?
Speaker 4 (11:49):
I don't know anyone who hasn't had to train their
own discipline or kind of create that for themselves.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
I don't think you're born and you're like, yep, there's
a hard worker there.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
I don't.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
I mean, maybe I think parents would like to think that, yeah,
But I don't know you talk to my eighth grade
English jaser. I think she would have said that Sam's
blacked off a little bit.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
But yeah, I've always taken it seriously.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
I've taken it seriously because there's a lot of and
this is very evident to everyone on this zoom and
anyone listening to this.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
There's just a lot of podcasts.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
There's a lot Someone argue too many podcasts, and so
I just don't want to waste people's time.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
I'm not interested in it.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
So if we're gonna put something out every week, I
feel the responsibility and a commitment to the listener to
make something that is compelling and considered and something that's
that they're gonna be able to walk away from and
like hold throughout their week in a way that is
meaningful and interesting. And I'm not denying like I listen
(12:52):
to a lot of basketball podcasts where they it's just
like three Dudes.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I love those shows too. This is not what I'm
good at.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
I think the work ethic is there, and I also
this is maybe more important when it comes to the guests,
because I don't know the guests. Usually I always think like,
you'll never get this chance at the first at bat again,
and I take that seriously. I think, well, if we
have this moment in time, you should put everything into
it that you can, knowing like it may not happen again.
(13:23):
I mean, it certainly won't happen again for the first time,
and I think that is important. So I do consciously
go into it with those intentions and that intentionality.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
So we've established you're a high achiever, but you also
have such a relaxed vibe on the mic, and I'm
I want to talk a little bit about how that
prep and research enables you to be in that kind
of relaxed chill space. One, there's a part of me
that I will confess wonders like it's sam a little
bit of a control freak. And two, though, do you
ever find obviously, do you ever find anxiety creeping in
(13:58):
when things start to go off the rails or head?
Have you prepped so much that you're like, I know
every tributary.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
I would say you could end the sentence with, have
you ever let anxiety creep in like every in all facets?
Speaker 3 (14:11):
The answer is a resounding yes. In twenty twenty four,
after the pandemic, who doesn't have anxiety? I want to
find that person. It's a matter of what you do
with it. Does it paralyze you, does it stype for you?
Speaker 4 (14:23):
I mean that's one way, or do you kind of
hold it and move through and with it. And I
think the research process is so intense, it is so
demanding that by the time I'm in the room, it
is actually very liberating to go if it's not working
out with the guests, I have a plan. So having
(14:46):
a plan allows you to discard the plan and to
live in the moment of that interaction because you always
have a backup. It's like a safety valve. I mean
it's that at least that's how I view it. So
it is liberating in that way. And the other part
of your question, yes, controlling, I mean obviously yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I wouldn't say though obviously because you're being prepared and being.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Long as a long hair comment.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
No, not even a little bit. Following up on that, though,
there's another anxiety thing I want to ask you about.
Sorry to be so anxiousness focused.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
I didn't go to therapy this week, so this is good.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Great, we got you. I heard you tell someone that
you get super anxious on the rare occasions when you
ask someone for a favor, but that if someone asks
you for a favor, if it's something you believe in
or you think it's a good idea, like you will
go full bore helping them out. I see you, Sam Fragoso,
(15:48):
because I have the same dynamic and I know what
causes it in me, But I'm curious what causes it
in you. Like, what's it play there where you're like,
I don't like to do it, but I'm great with
other people doing it.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
To me, it would have been really great if you
ended up being like, and I have a favor to
ask of you, you know, whatever you want, whatever you want. Yeah,
I mean I think asking for a favor, I'm not
sure in regards as a podcast. I think you're talking
about like geting guests and stuff. I probably said that, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Mean, I just don't like to bother people.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
And also there's a part of me that goes like,
I've done fournered episodes.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
We're nearing eight years here.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
I really shouldn't need a favor to get an actor
on a new Hulu show, you know, Like I feel
like I could probably figure that out, But there are occasions,
you know, and like I'm trying to think of one,
but like a Tom Hanks who came on or no,
I think that was actually on our own record. But
there are occasions where I do ask for help, and yeah,
(16:49):
it gives.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Me anxiety, I think.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
I think in general, people asking for help is not
an easy thing. People helping others when called upon, if
you have a kind of basic beating heart, I think
is an easy thing to do if you believe in them,
which I try to help and pay it forward. Yeah,
so many people help me starting out, so I think
you'd be silly to not pay that forward.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
I mean, are you going to get Dolly's fact number eventually?
Is the question? You also have mentioned in interviews that
your follow up questions are a way to get people
to tell their deeper story more so than they're probably
used to, especially if they're on like a press junket
or something. Have you ever had a moment in conversation
(17:32):
where the result of that approach took you by surprise
or felt revelatory for you, where you were like, WHOA,
I did not see this coming at all.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Yes, absolutely happened probably one out of every three times.
I mean, I could think of last year we did
an episode of Padma Lakshmi. You know, I guess have
a really strange way if something is there, if there's
something that's been nagging them, it's like your friend, you
don't going out the differently friends if there's one thing
(18:01):
just right below the surface that they have been thinking
about throughout the day.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Guests are not totally dissimilar.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
If you can hear them and listen to them that
they're really just waiting for you to go what is
it that's going on and why is it bothering you?
And it's the job of the host to hold that
and to give space for it. So it happens all
the time. And that is why like not reading my
outline word for word is important, because the outline is
(18:31):
what you have written. It's the story you are trying
to tell. The job of our show is to tell
a story collectively in collaboration with the guests, and so
the outline is a base and what someone brings to
the room is what ultimately becomes of the story that
we're telling together. So that's why the follow up question
(18:52):
is imperative because it's very easy to go, Okay, they've
said this, I got number seven on the outline check
I got it. I gotta get through this.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
I really I have to go watch the Laker game
at five o'clock. I need to move on.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
And I understand that, but it's a disservice, I think
to the guest and to the listener if you don't
try to hold whatever it is they're feeling, which is
often revealed in the follow up question.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
When you're building that collaborative narrative, do you get emotionally
caught up in those stories or do you are you
able to maintain kind of the journalistic objectiveness to it.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
The journalist part is all the work I have done
to get us into the room. It is the asking
of them to come on. It is the hours and
hours and hours of research. It is the hours and
hours of shaping an outline.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
It is the hours and hours of thinking about their
life in ways that are journalistic in nature. To be
in the room with them, though, especially in those moments,
in the follow up moments. I don't know what you
want to call it, but I think it's just basically
being a human. That is what I'm there to do. Now,
there are some people probably hearing that and going like, oh,
the New York Times wouldn't do that.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Well, that's great there. We already have the New York Times.
Great good for them, and I love the New York Times.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
And I have a lot of journalist friends who wouldn't
cross the line that I probably do cross, which is
crying in an interview. I'm not gonna sit there and go,
you know, I'm feeling something deeply emotionally, but my journalistic
ethics and my Jay School training has said that I
cannot cry in this moment. I am not the character
in American Psycho. I'm going to feel something and I'm
(20:31):
going to be moved by it, but I don't fake
cry like William Hurton broadcast news like. I'm not like here,
give me take two at the crying right. If I
feel it, I feel it, I'm going to give.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
In to it.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
But it's my job to hold both. It's my job
to be a human and it's my job to be
a journalist. And I think I can walk and chew
gum at the same time, and so that's the job.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
One of the things that has struck me in listening
to other interviews that you've done is that when you
talk about your podcast asked and you talk about how
deeply you love it. The language that you use is
so parallel to the way people talk about their relationships,
and just as a relationship will evolve, so does work.
(21:14):
So well, Obviously, these kinds of things aren't always predictable.
What are some of the visions that you have for
the future evolution of talk?
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Easy? Am I gonna like break up with the show
or something? Or yeah?
Speaker 4 (21:27):
Is this like?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Is this like a question about marriage or matrimony?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
I don't know, it's about your marriage to your work?
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Yeah, well, you know, I come from a many times
divorced household, so that wouldn't be a good omen. But
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
I think it's a good question. I love doing it
and it is the great joy of my life to
do it, and I think the moment it no longer.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Like a relationship serves me, I would probably not do it.
I don't predict or forecast that, and I don't see
that in the near future. But yeah, yeah, I think
so long as it's interesting to me and to the listener,
I will keep doing it. It is kind of regenerative,
and it does give live to me and gives meeting.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
So I don't know.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
I hadn't thought about that the question, I'd say, like,
I'm in it.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
For the long haul.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
To answer your committed I thought that I haven't bought
a ring if that's what you're asking, but I am
committed to the process.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Just make it the weirdest way to talk about your work.
We possibly can't you.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
I'm I'm just rolling with you.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Doesn't mean I'm I'm taking full full responsibility for the
oddity of that one. But Sam, I am so incredibly
grateful that you've spent this time with me today. For
any of our listeners, Sam's podcast, once again is Talk
Easy with Sam Fragoso. New episodes drop on Sunday mornings.
I know Sam isn't listening to them too, because that's
his basketball day. We're going to be back next week
(22:57):
with more people who are shaping the world of podcasts.
So thank you so much, Sam, Thank you
iHeartRadio presents Conversations, a weekly discussion with the biggest names
and influencers in podcasting. Wanta will learn the secret psycho
rituals scrubstars Zach Braff and Donald Beason used before Every
Fake Doctor's Real Friends taping, how Vice News parachutes into
war zones to rescue journalists from life threatening situations. For
(00:24):
why Pagan, Michael Key, and Blumhouse believe three D audio
is the future of storytelling.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Whether you're a newbie trying to break.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Into the podcast game or an exec trying to refine
your playbook, Conversations is the easiest way.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
To keep your pulse on the industry. Welcome to the
iHeart podcast Speaker series. I Am not Will Pearson, I
am in Stoneholly Fry. I host Stuff you mist in
History Class and Criminalia and each week, as you know,
(00:57):
this series is about having a conversation with creator and
we'll talk about podcasts and podcasting. And today I am
lucky enough to get to spend time with Sam Fragoso,
whose podcast Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso features an array
of startlingly famous and interesting guests having very intimate conversations
(01:18):
which Sam is really good at. A listening. So Sam,
thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
What an intro. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Without trying to sound pejorative in anyway, you are a
whipper snapper. You are very young to have the career
that you've had and how impressive it is, and I
would love for you to just do kind of the
brief run through of your short brought impressive trajectory from
creative director at the Roxy Theater, which I heard you
(01:46):
tell the long form podcast you were bad at, through
print journalism and then into podcasting.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
I wasn't that bad. I wasn't that good either, but.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
I was basically to bring a full Pushkin glaud welding
into it.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
The Roxy.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Time, where I was a credit director was kind of
like a Beatles and Hamburg thing where I had to
do a lot of the only thing I was good at.
I'll say I was doing a lot of on stage
Q and as, and I had to do I don't know,
somewhere between like five and seven a week, which is
just an insane amount of time to spend in front
of an audience trying to entertain them asking questions. So
(02:29):
then from there I kind of pivoted into podcasting. I
had done some magazine journalism before that, a little bit
after where I'd done interviews for Vanity Fair and Vice
and MPR. So it's just kind of a natural dovetailing
of interests.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
You did something that I love because I always encourage
people to do this, which is, you shouldn't wait for
someone to give you permission or offer you a deal
to start a podcast. You started Talk Easy on your own,
on your personal credit card, with no real safety net
to it. Are you a risk taker by nature? Or
(03:05):
was that just the one trajectory you felt like you
had to follow.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
I would say the bank companies would say yes for sure,
based on the statements.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Yeah, I think definitely. It's weird.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
You know, the credit cards, they don't call them like, Wow,
we're really excited about your fledgling podcast.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
We'll let you. We'll let you pay that off and
do time.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Wants some more equipment, No problem, big.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Yes, yes, go ahead and get that scarlet and the
road microphone.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Yeah. I guess so.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
I don't know I thought about it like that before,
but I think I felt like I had enough validation
in other arenas like the roxy, like writing for those
magazines and stuff, and enough online response that felt encouraging,
that it felt like it was a risk, but one
built on a foundation that I could understand that I
(03:55):
could like grow something from.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
It wasn't like I'd.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
Never done an interview for one, I just take got
the MX and see what happens.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
We've heard that podcast, not yours, but we've heard those podcasts.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
I'm sure.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
I'm sure they have, and I hope they've worked out,
just simply from an economic point of view.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
You also, my understanding is you almost ended your podcast
during the pandemic, but you didn't, thankfully. What was that
moment of decision like and how did it end up
changing kind of the tone of things for you?
Speaker 4 (04:27):
I'm sure like many people listening the when the pandemic happened,
I think I felt I just thought, what is it
really useful for anyone to hear an interview with like
an actor? No no offense to actors or filmmakers, But
it just felt not purposeful. It didn't feel when when
(04:49):
the world was crumbling. I wasn't like, yeah, make sure
we do an episode with Dan Levy about Shit's Creek,
like that didn't seem essential. Although I did been Shit's
creat turning the pandemic me too, Yeah, like most people.
So I don't know why that arithmetic didn't work out,
But that moment was I think a way of the
(05:12):
show opening the door it stores up to people that
weren't only in the entertainment space. So like we had
more writers on we had I think at the time,
better or Rourke and Numb Chomsky and Elizabeth Gilbert I
think came on around that time, just just opening up
the aperture a little bit in a way that we
(05:32):
should have done in retrospect way earlier. And I'm so
glad that we did, because since then, I do think
the show is unique in its wide variety of guests and.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Interest Speaking of your wide variety of guests and interests,
everyone who interviews you always marvels at the guests that
you get, and because you do get really amazing people,
I feel like I have to ask you about that.
But I have two questions actually, So the first is
obviously how do you get such amazing guests? Which is
an interesting question, But what I really want to know
is what is your actual hit rate? Like what is
(06:04):
your ratio of nose to yes is? And I know
you're super persistent, but do you ever just give up
and we're like, that person's never coming, we should stop
wasting that energy.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
I've never given up. Some people have passed away by
the time we try to get them again and again
and again.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
That has happened.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
That's very tragic, Like Christopher Palmer was someone I wanted
to have on. So I think, short of death, I
don't think we've ever given up, which is a bleak,
hopefully funny answer to people listening.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And we have an.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Excel sheet that says, like, we asked this person six
months ago.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
It's kind of time.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
It's sort of like a doctor your annual check in,
making sure you're okay. Do you want to do this?
I think the hit rate, I mean we've received three
nots this morning, so I think that tells you the story.
But I mean we're also pitched an abundance of people,
so I think we spend a lot of time saying
no for the most part at this point, which was
(06:59):
not true in the I mean that was like, that's
only recently, you're in the last two or three years.
But we don't get that many know's anymore. I think
it's a lot of not right now, which is much
better than please stop emailing us, and for that we
are grateful.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
That's interesting that you mentioned that. Now you know you
have this this reversal where people are pitching you, how
do you balance that because I know you're super passionate
about your work and you're going after people you think
are interesting. So when it's coming, the flow is happening
in the other direction. How do you sort those out
to make sure the people that you are saying yes
(07:36):
to feel exactly right in the tone of your show
and the level of interest and excitement that you and
your team need to have for it, versus the people
that you have to kind of gently go like, this
is not a good fit.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
I think the thing you said it's about excitement. Just
because it wasn't our idea and it was a publicist
idea doesn't mean that we're not like on principal getaway,
you know, we have a kind of like internal rubric,
and it's really is the person's life story interesting? Have
they gone through something recently or have they made work
about something that is personal to their life that feels
(08:11):
connective both to the art that they're putting into the
world and to the lives that they're leading, which usually
makes an interesting podcast. Have they done a lot of
varied and interesting work, Like, we don't have a lot
of people under the age of twenty five for that reason.
And it's not because we're against gen Z. It's just
oftentimes I don't think the format is conducive to people under.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Like twenty five. And we've had exceptions.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
The Lord came on and was great, and we have
a few folks coming on this year that are under
twenty five that are incredibly talented musicians and writers. It's
not binding, but yeah, I think it's it's really though,
above fame, because people really press this a lot. Fame
is not enough, I think, and I think fame is
not enough for the listener. Frankly, it may get them
(09:00):
in the room and in the door, but it will
not keep them there if they're not interesting and willing
to go to a place conversationally that is interesting. So
that's kind of the barometer, you know, the letmus Desk
would put.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
I have to chuckle a little because per your rules,
you've been doing this for all since twenty sixteen, you
would not have been old or interesting enough to be
on your own show initially.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Yeah, which is why I never did an interview with myself.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
You also mentioned in several interviews, the most recent one
I listened to was the one you did with Max
Linsky for long Form, that you plan everything then you're
in your interviews. You have a roadmap laid out and
you're ready to deviate from it if you want to
as conversation flows. And I know that takes a ton
of prep and I feel like I would be dropping
(09:50):
the ball if I did not ask you what that
prep process is. Like, where do you start digging in
on somebody? That sounds more aggressive than I'm meant it to. Yeah,
but investigating like you know their story.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
Yeah, that sounds like I'm like solving the zodiac mercer.
I have a big board and the string moving around.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
I mean, it's it is an intensive process, and I
start with I mean, I kind of go chronologically if
I can, if we have the time to do that,
and just go from the earliest press clippings that we
can find and then start building what is basically this
is your life document that's called the brief. And it's
(10:34):
like if anything that basically that has been public record,
we have it written down in the chronology of their
respective lives, and then from there, once once the bronze
stroke is covered, I think we start going what's the
kind of three act structure of an episode. It's usually
the most recent work starts at the top. Second act
(10:54):
is is life story, what are the sort of formative
moments that have shaped them, have brought them to this place?
Speaker 3 (11:02):
And then the third act is usually their own.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Personal philosophies that have God in both their life and
their work, or are speaking to a more social political
moment that is worth kind of covering in both broad
and specific strokes.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
This all evidence is pretty clearly that your work ethic
is legit. Like you clearly put in the time, this
isn't something you're the least bit kambal you're about. Have
you always been like that? Because not everybody has that?
Is that natural? Or did you have to train your
own work discipline?
Speaker 4 (11:49):
I don't know anyone who hasn't had to train their
own discipline or kind of create that for themselves.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
I don't think you're born and you're like, yep, there's
a hard worker there.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
I don't.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
I mean, maybe I think parents would like to think that, yeah,
But I don't know you talk to my eighth grade
English jaser. I think she would have said that Sam's
blacked off a little bit.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
But yeah, I've always taken it seriously.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
I've taken it seriously because there's a lot of and
this is very evident to everyone on this zoom and
anyone listening to this.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
There's just a lot of podcasts.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
There's a lot Someone argue too many podcasts, and so
I just don't want to waste people's time.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
I'm not interested in it.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
So if we're gonna put something out every week, I
feel the responsibility and a commitment to the listener to
make something that is compelling and considered and something that's
that they're gonna be able to walk away from and
like hold throughout their week in a way that is
meaningful and interesting. And I'm not denying like I listen
(12:52):
to a lot of basketball podcasts where they it's just
like three Dudes.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I love those shows too. This is not what I'm
good at.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
I think the work ethic is there, and I also
this is maybe more important when it comes to the guests,
because I don't know the guests. Usually I always think like,
you'll never get this chance at the first at bat again,
and I take that seriously. I think, well, if we
have this moment in time, you should put everything into
it that you can, knowing like it may not happen again.
(13:23):
I mean, it certainly won't happen again for the first time,
and I think that is important. So I do consciously
go into it with those intentions and that intentionality.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
So we've established you're a high achiever, but you also
have such a relaxed vibe on the mic, and I'm
I want to talk a little bit about how that
prep and research enables you to be in that kind
of relaxed chill space. One, there's a part of me
that I will confess wonders like it's sam a little
bit of a control freak. And two, though, do you
ever find obviously, do you ever find anxiety creeping in
(13:58):
when things start to go off the rails or head?
Have you prepped so much that you're like, I know
every tributary.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
I would say you could end the sentence with, have
you ever let anxiety creep in like every in all facets?
Speaker 3 (14:11):
The answer is a resounding yes. In twenty twenty four,
after the pandemic, who doesn't have anxiety? I want to
find that person. It's a matter of what you do
with it. Does it paralyze you, does it stype for you?
Speaker 4 (14:23):
I mean that's one way, or do you kind of
hold it and move through and with it. And I
think the research process is so intense, it is so
demanding that by the time I'm in the room, it
is actually very liberating to go if it's not working
out with the guests, I have a plan. So having
(14:46):
a plan allows you to discard the plan and to
live in the moment of that interaction because you always
have a backup. It's like a safety valve. I mean
it's that at least that's how I view it. So
it is liberating in that way. And the other part
of your question, yes, controlling, I mean obviously yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I wouldn't say though obviously because you're being prepared and being.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Long as a long hair comment.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
No, not even a little bit. Following up on that, though,
there's another anxiety thing I want to ask you about.
Sorry to be so anxiousness focused.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
I didn't go to therapy this week, so this is good.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Great, we got you. I heard you tell someone that
you get super anxious on the rare occasions when you
ask someone for a favor, but that if someone asks
you for a favor, if it's something you believe in
or you think it's a good idea, like you will
go full bore helping them out. I see you, Sam Fragoso,
(15:48):
because I have the same dynamic and I know what
causes it in me, But I'm curious what causes it
in you. Like, what's it play there where you're like,
I don't like to do it, but I'm great with
other people doing it.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
To me, it would have been really great if you
ended up being like, and I have a favor to
ask of you, you know, whatever you want, whatever you want. Yeah,
I mean I think asking for a favor, I'm not
sure in regards as a podcast. I think you're talking
about like geting guests and stuff. I probably said that, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Mean, I just don't like to bother people.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
And also there's a part of me that goes like,
I've done fournered episodes.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
We're nearing eight years here.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
I really shouldn't need a favor to get an actor
on a new Hulu show, you know, Like I feel
like I could probably figure that out, But there are occasions,
you know, and like I'm trying to think of one,
but like a Tom Hanks who came on or no,
I think that was actually on our own record. But
there are occasions where I do ask for help, and yeah,
(16:49):
it gives.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Me anxiety, I think.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
I think in general, people asking for help is not
an easy thing. People helping others when called upon, if
you have a kind of basic beating heart, I think
is an easy thing to do if you believe in them,
which I try to help and pay it forward. Yeah,
so many people help me starting out, so I think
you'd be silly to not pay that forward.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
I mean, are you going to get Dolly's fact number eventually?
Is the question? You also have mentioned in interviews that
your follow up questions are a way to get people
to tell their deeper story more so than they're probably
used to, especially if they're on like a press junket
or something. Have you ever had a moment in conversation
(17:32):
where the result of that approach took you by surprise
or felt revelatory for you, where you were like, WHOA,
I did not see this coming at all.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Yes, absolutely happened probably one out of every three times.
I mean, I could think of last year we did
an episode of Padma Lakshmi. You know, I guess have
a really strange way if something is there, if there's
something that's been nagging them, it's like your friend, you
don't going out the differently friends if there's one thing
(18:01):
just right below the surface that they have been thinking
about throughout the day.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Guests are not totally dissimilar.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
If you can hear them and listen to them that
they're really just waiting for you to go what is
it that's going on and why is it bothering you?
And it's the job of the host to hold that
and to give space for it. So it happens all
the time. And that is why like not reading my
outline word for word is important, because the outline is
(18:31):
what you have written. It's the story you are trying
to tell. The job of our show is to tell
a story collectively in collaboration with the guests, and so
the outline is a base and what someone brings to
the room is what ultimately becomes of the story that
we're telling together. So that's why the follow up question
(18:52):
is imperative because it's very easy to go, Okay, they've
said this, I got number seven on the outline check
I got it. I gotta get through this.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
I really I have to go watch the Laker game
at five o'clock. I need to move on.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
And I understand that, but it's a disservice, I think
to the guest and to the listener if you don't
try to hold whatever it is they're feeling, which is
often revealed in the follow up question.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
When you're building that collaborative narrative, do you get emotionally
caught up in those stories or do you are you
able to maintain kind of the journalistic objectiveness to it.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
The journalist part is all the work I have done
to get us into the room. It is the asking
of them to come on. It is the hours and
hours and hours of research. It is the hours and
hours of shaping an outline.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
It is the hours and hours of thinking about their
life in ways that are journalistic in nature. To be
in the room with them, though, especially in those moments,
in the follow up moments. I don't know what you
want to call it, but I think it's just basically
being a human. That is what I'm there to do. Now,
there are some people probably hearing that and going like, oh,
the New York Times wouldn't do that.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Well, that's great there. We already have the New York Times.
Great good for them, and I love the New York Times.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
And I have a lot of journalist friends who wouldn't
cross the line that I probably do cross, which is
crying in an interview. I'm not gonna sit there and go,
you know, I'm feeling something deeply emotionally, but my journalistic
ethics and my Jay School training has said that I
cannot cry in this moment. I am not the character
in American Psycho. I'm going to feel something and I'm
(20:31):
going to be moved by it, but I don't fake
cry like William Hurton broadcast news like. I'm not like here,
give me take two at the crying right. If I
feel it, I feel it, I'm going to give.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
In to it.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
But it's my job to hold both. It's my job
to be a human and it's my job to be
a journalist. And I think I can walk and chew
gum at the same time, and so that's the job.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
One of the things that has struck me in listening
to other interviews that you've done is that when you
talk about your podcast asked and you talk about how
deeply you love it. The language that you use is
so parallel to the way people talk about their relationships,
and just as a relationship will evolve, so does work.
(21:14):
So well, Obviously, these kinds of things aren't always predictable.
What are some of the visions that you have for
the future evolution of talk?
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Easy? Am I gonna like break up with the show
or something? Or yeah?
Speaker 4 (21:27):
Is this like?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Is this like a question about marriage or matrimony?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
I don't know, it's about your marriage to your work?
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Yeah, well, you know, I come from a many times
divorced household, so that wouldn't be a good omen. But
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
I think it's a good question. I love doing it
and it is the great joy of my life to
do it, and I think the moment it no longer.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Like a relationship serves me, I would probably not do it.
I don't predict or forecast that, and I don't see
that in the near future. But yeah, yeah, I think
so long as it's interesting to me and to the listener,
I will keep doing it. It is kind of regenerative,
and it does give live to me and gives meeting.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
So I don't know.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
I hadn't thought about that the question, I'd say, like,
I'm in it.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
For the long haul.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
To answer your committed I thought that I haven't bought
a ring if that's what you're asking, but I am
committed to the process.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Just make it the weirdest way to talk about your work.
We possibly can't you.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
I'm I'm just rolling with you.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Doesn't mean I'm I'm taking full full responsibility for the
oddity of that one. But Sam, I am so incredibly
grateful that you've spent this time with me today. For
any of our listeners, Sam's podcast, once again is Talk
Easy with Sam Fragoso. New episodes drop on Sunday mornings.
I know Sam isn't listening to them too, because that's
his basketball day. We're going to be back next week
(22:57):
with more people who are shaping the world of podcasts.
So thank you so much, Sam, Thank you
Host
Conal Byrne
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