Brave New World (Part 2)

Last week, we started in on Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World, now a series on NBC’s Peacock. We discussed a whole bunch of people in it, none of whom—as it turns out—are the main character. If you haven’t heard our previous show, definitely go back and start there.

Today, we'll get into the thick of Huxley’s story about sex, drugs, and a complete lack of rock and roll.

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Next week we'll get to our Screen Time conversation about the adaptation of Brave New World!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey there, this is Popcorn Book Club. I'm Danis Schwartz.
Thanks for listening. Last week we started in on Alvis
Huxley's Brave New World Now a series on NBC's Peacock.
We discussed a whole bunch of people in it, none
of whom, as it turns out, are the protagonist. This
story does not have a protagonist, nobody you want to
root for. Anyway. If you haven't heard our previous show,

(00:28):
please go back and start there. This one will make
a little bit more sense. Today. Jennifer Wright, Karamadaqua, Tan Trent,
Melissa Hunter and I will get into the thick of
Huxley's story about sex, drugs, and a complete lack of
rock and roll. One more tiny good thing that again
levels don't go this far, but non violent de escalation

(00:49):
of violence, but every in line. Yeah, I mean, I
would be much happier if they instead of tear gassing protesters,
they were blown out weed smoke like that would be
and they played an audio tape that was just like,
just be nice to each other, Come on nice cool.
That's scary. Yeah, it sounds like the music festival they

(01:13):
used to have at my college. That's not fun. I'll
just jump us off and then Jennifer, I'm gonna give
you the climax, but I'll lead us up to there,
which is uh, John h has you know, had these
ideals of this brave new world his entire life, hearing
about it from his mom Linda. But he's conflicted. People
have no feelings. No one has read Shakespeare here, and

(01:35):
he's very um confused by this strumpet Lunina because he
has feelings for her, but she's a strumpet and and
what is what is going on? So he has these
this this crisis of faith, and he goes to visit
his mother at just said dirty word dying in the
hospital um on Soma on a Soma holiday. Um in

(01:57):
a hospital where a Booknovski group of like a million
twins are being death conditioned. Because another pretty good thing
about the society is people aren't scared of death, which
genuinely is a is a positive thing that I think
that humans should be less scared of death of all
the things that they were conditioning the young children. I

(02:18):
was like that one fine, because it's also like a
lot of Latin American cultures have that too, with like
Dan Dalis Moritos, where it's like death is something to
celebrate and not to be as afraid of. I think
that there's a there's a line, and I mean that's
the whole thing of this book, is that there needs
to be a line somewhere between the two worlds. But
I think that like eating a chocolate and Claire of

(02:38):
being like, is she dead a little much CAUs yes,
it's a little cavaliering, callous and uncaring and unfeeling because
they don't have these strong relationships. And so I think
that being unafraid of death is important, and accepting that
death is a part of life is important. But also

(03:00):
seeing that person as a person who people cared about
is what's missing in this and that's what John gets
upset about. That's also it it's like people also don't
see people as individuals. They're like, you're just part of
the organism, like you're not a person. So to bring
us into the climax, John witnesses his mother die and
see sort of the taunting and just like sneers and

(03:24):
and repulsion of this Bukanovski group twins and John has
a freak out, a justifiable freak out because his mom
just died. Uh, and Jennifer, why don't you take it.
At this climactic moment um, John decides that he's going
to liberate this world. So he sees saw being handed
out to a huge group of people. I think they're guilta's.

(03:47):
They've just been used working for the day, and they're
getting their ration of selma. They're all lining up and
John runs back behind the station, screams from Shakespeare at them,
and throws away all the selma. Understandably, everybody is furious.
There's a riot. They tried to you understand, they've set
you free, and no, no, that's not how they felt

(04:09):
about that. They just did like eight hours of work
in a factory. They thought we're going to get a drink.
People are very angry at him. It's gonna jump in
real quick. At this moment, I thought the plot was
going to be that he was like that guy from
the movie Yesterday where he starts like reciting Shakespeare's and
everyone's like, oh my goodness, Sonnets, he's a god. But

(04:36):
because it's like lend me your ears, and he's like,
oh shit, I've never spoken publicly before, so it's very unfortunate.
But they can't even really rebel because I thought, wow,
that's some strong emotion, like that's certainly curious anger resulting
in riot. It's only a very strong emotion because they
release clouds of so much into the air to calm

(04:58):
everybody down. And they played this very soothing, automated message
saying like you should all be good to love each other.
Wouldn't that be nice? So apparent general orgy, one more
tiny good thing that again levels don't go this far,
but non violent shutting down of de escalation of violence

(05:19):
that they have like a nice little recording. They're like, oh,
we're gonna play Riot number two, alright, but everyone in
line like like, yeah, I mean, I would be much
happier if they instead of tear gassing protesters they were
blown out weed smoke like that would be And they

(05:40):
played an audio tape that was just like, just be
nice to each other, come on, nice cool. That's scary, Yeah,
it is scary. It sounds like the music festival they
used to have at my college. It's not fun. Wait,
wait what spring weekend? They did not play creepy saying

(06:01):
there was like a bunch of music and weed smoke
and it was all right. So hem. Holtz and Bernard
are also present for this. They are worried the savage
is going to get killed him. Holtz like restless to
defend him because him Holtz is good at everything and
that's made him different. Bernard it's like a shitty little
weasel about this because he's a shitty little person. So

(06:25):
they all get called in to stand before and also sorry,
one more interruption when they were like, is this are
you guys friends with John? They whatever, and Bernard was
like trying to come up with a way he could
say no, reading him around. The best part of that
was when help comes and it says that he starts

(06:46):
shouting help to give the illusion that he's helping. He's
the worst. So they're all called in before the World
Controller and the world and Groler talks about how these
people can't be in civilife society anymore. The World Controller
has also read Shakespeare. Uh. He also loved doing true

(07:08):
science when he was young. He wanted to do real experiments,
but they weren't conducive to society's happiness. So he had
a choice when he was young where he could either
accumulate a huge amount of power or he could be
exiled to an island, and um, he's like, so all
of you are going to be exiled to islands. You're
you're right about that assumption, if that's what you think

(07:29):
is going on. And Bernard begins sobbing controllably breaks out
things to be allowed to say, like becomes inconsolable and
has to be taken and given so many in the
other room and the world control. He's like, well, that
hasn't dumb reaction, because if you think about it, you're
gonna meet the most interesting people you've ever met in
your life. Uh, it's everybody who was a little bit

(07:52):
too weird to function here. And also he really nicely
lets how Lant's choose what island. I love that party.
He says, you want one with a good climate and
him holds so snow. I think I'd do better writing
if I was in a really bad climate. Yeah, he's like,
the storms will inspire me. I feel like there's you
don't get a lot of writing done in Hawaii and

(08:13):
it works for the Russians. Um. Yeah, also goes to
the Falkland Islands, which is I also really like that.
It's basically an artists colony. That's the punishment. Yeah, amazing. Also,
I gotta say I'm really bummed for Helmholds that he
is banished to an island with his toxic friend that
he just can't get rid of. Oh I don't think

(08:33):
they're going to the same island. Yeah. And at the
end that chapter when he freaks out him home, Helmholds
is like, I'm gonna go check on my friend, even
though it's them just being a stem, make sure he's okay.
It's like, you can do better. As brand is gonna
be a lot of interesting people. He's gonna be. Yeah,

(08:55):
he's gonna be He's gonna have a great time at
the He's going to have a lot of sex. He's
gonna thrive. One of the things that I did think
was this is a little separate from the rest of
the plot. But they talked about how at one point
Alpha's wanted to have their own island, so they gave
them an island, and they had an Alpha only island,
and it went terribly because none of them wanted to
do menial labor. They were all just constantly jockeying to

(09:19):
be the most powerful person there. Devolved into like wars
of revolutions every few years. It fell apart of media, Like, um,
how would this sign might be different? Like are there
a lot of poets who wanted to do a lot
of me? I think I had the idea that maybe
it's this this society doesn't understand that not all like

(09:41):
poets and and like what I'm saying is there's a
flaw with how they're making alpha pluses, you know what
I mean, Like because not all poets are like straight
smart or good at engineering, and so like the things
that they were breeding in their alpha plus is probably
also weren't the best things for like fun people all ways.
That was my understanding where I was like, maybe instead

(10:03):
of just being like the best and smartest people, they're
specifically breeding alpha plus is to be like engineers for
their society, and so that makes them all kind of shitty. Yeah,
it feels like in Cyprus because it was the experiment
with all the alphice happened in Cyprus. It feels like
they were like, Okay, we want you to replicate this
society exactly. And also you're being told, hey, you have

(10:25):
to do absolon work. So the things that you have
been conditioned to think are beneath you are the things
that they now have to do. So they gave them
all the means of production and they were like, yeah,
socialism and they were like but no, no, no, we
are capitalism, and we want capitalism because that is good,
right you buy new clothes when they get holes in
them and all that good stuff, and it's like, no,

(10:47):
I'll figure it out. So I think that's sort of
the breakdown because they weren't willing to be cooperative because
they had not been taught that that was the thing
that you do. Yeah, they've been conditioned totally against that,
which is why love that. Like John's outburst, not outburst,
but that he's like going to liberate everyone. Starts off
with quoting Shakespeare and then he's essentially just like an

(11:09):
emo boy in high school. That's like, I want to
be unhappy, so so you want your unhappiness and he's
like yeah, and they're in pain. He's like, I'll take
that to all of them, give it all to me.
I just want to feel okay. So John is not
allowed to go to the Falklands with his other friends.

(11:31):
He goes off into the far reachers of the territory
in takes over an abandoned lighthouse, decides that he'll just
go on this little Walden adventure and live completely cut
off from the rest of society. It looks for like
two days until reporters find them and they're like, it's
interesting what he's doing. Um John is horrible to them

(11:52):
and attacks them, and he also starts whipping himself whenever
he has sexual thoughts about when he so. Um so,
reporters also see him whipping himself in the wilderness and
take pictures because that's a crazy story. And then a
bunch of tourists come out to see him and they

(12:12):
want to see him whip himself, and eventually maybe Lanina
is among them. And in any event, there is some
blue eyed woman who goes up to him. I think
it is Lenina because she's with Henry Foster. I assumed
it was belongs to everyone else, So who knows who
that lady was. I think it's implied to be Yah.

(12:34):
I think it's implied to be Lenina. But I do
think it's interesting that he didn't name her and that
it's like to me, that implies it could have been
any like it probably is Lanina, but it could have
been any woman in place of her in that moment. Yeah,
there is also an interesting part that doesn't have that
much to do with the blood, but we get this

(12:55):
neat little dig aggression into a camperman who is filmed,
very excited about using this as a premise for a feeling,
and he thinks it's going to be as good as
like the sex Life of a sperm Whale, which would
really he's saying something like he really really thinks he's
gonna he's gonna take the film medium to a new place.

(13:16):
That made me laugh. And people seem to take a
lot of satisfaction in their jobs. I will say I
did find it interesting that that specific photographer slash cameraman,
he spent like four days in a tree, where I
was like, isn't that a feeling of like wanting a

(13:37):
thing and committing and then getting the thing? Like why
did they let him do that? That seems like way
too much satisfaction to go to island. He's gonna go
to an island where he's gonna make his documentary seen
to me, And also the addition of the reporters felt
out of place too, because I'm like, why would you
need someone to be documenting some like all the things

(13:59):
that you know are supposed to be regimented, like do
you need competing also seem to want questions. It would
call their world view into questions when they asked him, okay,
you know the kind of questions we're gonna ask. It's like,
what do you think of civilized which is a normal
question for a tabloid publication. But if somebody says I

(14:20):
think they're all strumpets women should only sleep with one man,
that is an incredibly controversial point. Are going to read
that and be like, wait, ship, wait, just does this
brave new world have freedom of press? Apparently? Yeah, and
like a thriving entertainment industry. If that's why it was,

(14:42):
I was like, wait, where the hell did these reporters
come from? Yeah? Well, I think that throughout the book
they do a good job of establishing that there's a
level of awfulness that they'll allow because everybody's like, oh,
Marx is so queer, and it's been establish he's kind
of a weirdo. But there's a point at which he

(15:03):
becomes too weird. They're like, he's alone a lot. He's
like starting to ask questions that we don't necessarily think
are cool, and um, like Helmholtz is also kind of weird,
which is why they're friends, because they've established that they're
both alf Us. They're both weird. But I think Helmholtz
kind of kept it together more until he did that

(15:24):
thing in his class where he showed them like unapproved rhymes,
like the teacher that very very long pool, like understandably
if and the kids are twelve years old, if your
teacher suddenly just came in four science class. It was like,
I'm going to I want to tell you all. When
I was a junior in an ap English class, my

(15:48):
English teacher, I mean frek, my English teacher brought in
a poem that he had written and he had us
read it out loud, like line by line and like
the poem again, a poem he wrote. And I remember
specifically there was like a line of like home reading
these inane essays from students who don't carry Oh, so

(16:11):
he dragged you and then made you read you're dragging.
But again that wasn't like the point of the poem.
It was just like snuck in there, like a little
line of his own like home life where he's like
I spend my night reading meaningless essays. Shot him out,
very funny. I had an acting teacher do that once.

(16:33):
He had a scene, uh, and it was like at
a reputable acting school, but he had a scene that
was from something that he had written that was not
like it's not like he wrote something that was like
produced by a major studio. It was like a thing
that he wrote that he and his friends made some
like teeny tiny indie film like seventeen years before. And
he's like, we're doing this in class today, and I

(16:54):
was like, I don't want to. We are. Acting teacher
in high school had an unpublished or self published play
called On Stars Not Falling that was a autobiographical play
about his coming out, which is, you know, a good
play but very personal for like a teacher to be like,
this is about me and my story, and like then

(17:16):
to have students acted out in front of him like
we did his play that was autobiographical day. The problem
is not that any of these people did creative endeavors.
I think wonderful. I think everybody should do creative things. Happy.
There's a you tried to turn your classroom for a
little stadium of friends for my api. English teacher was

(17:39):
this very famous English teacher in my school. She was
like probably eighty When I had her, she was at
Pali High forever. She like donated. She was from very
rich and like donated her salary to the school and stuff.
But she was asshole. She like also will bullied half

(18:01):
of her class. She would call people her fours and fives,
like the ones that she thought were like the smartest.
My god, wait, and then she's like has had life,
think a narcissistic personality sort of. And on the first
day of class and we were all told this and
I had her two years in a row, she turned
on TV and it was like she was on sixty

(18:23):
minutes or something as uh, like she like one Teacher
of the Year one year, like twenty years before plays
it for everyone to be like, this is what you're getting.
I just been imagining her rolling out the TV cart
that you like keep for rainy days and days when
you're hungover as a teacher, like popping in the homemade

(18:46):
recorded vhs of her on sixty minutes and just the
ti tik tik happening, and then her face, Oh gosh,
can you imagine that you're going to watch the Road
to El Dorado and watching sixty Minutes on your teacher
Also just like thinking of like a mean girl English
teacher walking around being like, okay, my fours and fives,
where are you? I know, it was very It was

(19:09):
very very and that would be like I would be
such an insecure little scholar in that room. I mean
I was four, so I it was I was a
forward to, but she was her fours and fives. And
then I remember I saw her one day with like
her two favorite students, like, oh, here they are my fives,
and I'm like, oh, that's why you call us collectively

(19:30):
fours and fives. You're listening to Popcorn book Club for
My Heart Radio, and we'll be back right after the break.

(19:56):
So we're back with Popcorn book Club for My Heart Radio. Okay,
So back to Helmholtz. Yeah, reads a long poem to
his students, which is cute, and that was like his
big act of descent. So I think that it was weird.

(20:17):
But the reported him those acts, but like those acts
of descent don't seem to warrant like a full camera crew,
which is which which was why I felt the reporters
felt so odd that they were like on the ready,
ready to record John, Like I think part of it
is like John is so different that John is like
the only you know, but why the exist? I think

(20:41):
that's what Like maybe it's I think it's part of
that economy of distraction, right, Like it's it's the frivolity
of the media, and like this society has well, yeah,
it already it already assumes that people are so well
conditioned that they're not going to do anything like wild
you know what I mean, Like they're so regimented in
their like brains everything. Also, like the guy who did

(21:04):
the whales thing or the nature thing. I wonder if
that because it does feel like you wouldn't profile individuals
because this society is so anti individual that I feel
like you would profile nature or you would profile like
the the the making of the Feelies or something like that.

(21:25):
But I don't know, maybe they don't see John as
an individual. Like that's also a big part of that,
Like he's so outside the society that he's just like
a curio. Yeah, I mean, and he's attempting to return
to nature. He's just thwarted in his attempts immediately and
even during this period where he is attempting to do

(21:47):
his walden bit where he is living alone unperturbed by
the rest of the world. And he bought a few
canned goods because they were irresistible, but he's not going
to eat them. That that was very funny. Yeah, so
he's playing stove entirely alone. It okay. When I kept

(22:10):
thinking about this book, and I think one thing that's
interesting about any dystopia is we it forces us to
think about what he's missing from that society and what's
valuable to us. And sometimes that's something very obvious, like
water is missing from this society, and that is something
I care about. Um, the amazing that seems to be

(22:31):
missing from this society's love, and John comes no closer
to be incapable of loving when he's living alone. At
the end, he's still just whipping himself every time he
thinks about Lanina when she actually comes back for him.
I thought a happy ending was going to be, like
he was going right to her. They were going to
be together, She was going to live with him in
his lighthouse, and they were gonna restart the family. And

(22:53):
I hope be documented by that guy who is a
documentary and I'm very passionate about his art, Treating Treat
Treat guy. Yeah, he works really hard. Everyone else. John
also Eldest Huxley, does that thing where he wants to
make an argument, so he has two characters argue opposing

(23:14):
points for ten pages. And that's the argument that John
has with Mustafa Amount, where it's like two smart people
with opposite perspectives talking and John's perspective is like, what
about art and truth and beauty? And Mustafa a Mount goes, Okay, well,
those are fine, but they're not empirically more important than
comfort and happiness, and we prioritize comfort and happiness and

(23:35):
that is a compromise. Look, it's an argument. Some people
say that, you know, comfort is better than than beauty
and truth, And I thought it was really nice when
him Holt says that he's suffering because he wants to
make art and he can't, and must Amount says that
actually he's working with very few dramatic situations and he's
still turning them into feelings and making art, and maybe

(23:58):
that's more impressive than something shakepeare having experience. But I
guess what I was saying is like, even John is
not a hero in the sense of like this book
where it's like he's not doing anything for truth, or
beauty or art and or love. He's just like whipping
himself and being alone, Like he really doesn't do anything
other than a spouse. These ideas to make us the

(24:21):
reader route for him. I think that this book is
a cautionary tale about what happens when you read too
much Shakespeare, but you don't understand it because he doesn't
understand it. And I feel like these people, like he
talks a lot about Romeo and juliet because he fashions
himself to be Romeo and Lenina to be Juliett And like,

(24:42):
first off, you didn't read the end of that. Second
of all, I feel like there is a choice that
is made. And he is again saying because Juliette could
have chosen to be with Paris and to take the
easy road. But to quote Shakespeare in another of his plays,
the Course of True Love Now or did run smooth?
And he's saying like, well, everyone would be better if

(25:03):
they did this, And it's like, well, no, there's no
way that everyone would have been better, which is why
they have this island for these misfit toys where they
send them are several islands. Because he's like, oh, it's
good that we have so many islands. I don't know
what we did without him, and um, so it's sort
of like I feel like Mustaf Ahman is actually the
most realistic person, and he's like, this is the society

(25:26):
that we have. And I think that you have some
valid points, but this is the society that we're in.
Your society that you come from is not inherently better
than ours, and you need to stop acting like it is.
Your society is fine. Ours is not necessarily better than yours.
And he's kind of the only one who, even while
referring to it as civilization and savagery, does concede that

(25:49):
savagery is not inherently bad. It's just different and it's old. Yeah,
And that's exactly why he's like, yeah, we don't not
teach this because it's bad or are scared it just
it doesn't reinforce the society we've built that prioritizes comfort
above all. And they wouldn't understand it, like that was
the other piece of it. They wouldn't understand the lot

(26:10):
like Helmholtz laughs at the idea of like the mother
and this true love and why wouldn't you in marriage?
And it is so disconnected um, I will say, you know, Jennifer,
you're talking about these kind of dystopian books, and the
one and the other part of it that I usually
take from them is, you know, what are the things

(26:33):
in this dystopia that feel familiar? And a lot of
it feels very familiar, especially now, like the idea of
never being alone with your thoughts and like always having
constant distraction, and how constant distraction is a way for
like the systems of power to keep working and also
for consumerism to keep working, to like feed the beast,

(26:56):
and there's always something to buy, there's always something to consume.
And I did feel like that helm holds thing about
solitude and that like no one there is ever alone
is it was just really compelling to me and kind
of world that we like, Oh my god, it made me.
I mean, I'm someone I'm alone in quarantine, but I'm

(27:17):
on Twitter constantly, and I also keep like my TV
on in the background when I work, just like and
I always have like two screens up, like I'm always
my brain is never quiet, and I'm clearly uncomfortable with
just being alone with my thoughts, which isn't a good thing.
And the thing that I should work on. Yeah. I
think there is also this idea that at least if

(27:37):
you are someone who leaves in public at any kind
of way, like someone who is on Twitter, there is
a notion that everyone belongs to everyone else. My husband
often says that the thing that he thinks that our
grandchildren will rightly mock us the most as a generation
for was the idea that random private citizens had to

(27:58):
issue like public apologies on it, Like the idea that
you had to be like, I'm sorry, I didn't I
was not aware of good year tires, poor politics. I
do not. They do not stand with me. I am
a teacher from Missouri. Um. It is uh, it is

(28:18):
somewhat unnecessary that we believe that we belong so much
to everyone else that we have to constantly make it
clear that we are standing together as a group. Um.
Not that you shouldn't try to support, you know, companies
to do good things and good people in general, and
the right political causes. But I do think there is

(28:41):
an idea that if you don't, you will be canceled
online very very quickly. Um, and well everybody, Yeah, I
mean I not to bring up something personal from your Twitter,
but the but that whole like book thing, like, yeah,
is it's so enough with It's not political, it's just

(29:02):
the way you organize your books and for you to
get dragged by strangers and telling you you're an idiot
because oh yeah, don't worry, I've readden Look, there is
a very real chance that I have written more books
than those people have read this. Yes, so I'm not
too worried. It is like that that they feel like

(29:23):
they have a right to you know, your time and attention,
says I didn't specifically want to invoke that example, but yes,
do you feel like, what kind of insane world are
we living in? Oh? No, no, it's fine. Honestly, it's
better than me trying to make up an argument. Yeah,

(29:43):
insane to me that people feel like they have a
right to do that. I think it's the same argument
that Mustafa and John are basically having, where it's like
you are prioritizing, in that specific instance, beauty and you're like,
I like the way that this looks. These are books,
they have information. I use the for information. I like them,
but I am prioritizing the way I organized my books

(30:05):
in a beauty sense. I wanted to look pretty and
be a rainbow, which the same thing. Yeah, is the
first person I like. I'm like, I live in a
studio apartment and my bookshelves take up a full wall,
and so I want them to like look nice of

(30:25):
my last book at friends, to have those built in
bookshelves built and get the ladder and do everything they
are in very important to me. Know, they're stunning. They're stunning. Okay,
thank you, they are. This is Popcorn book Club. We'll

(30:48):
be right back after this quick break. Okay, we're back
with Popcorn book Club. We didn't say what happens at
the end of the book. Oh my god, Yes, okay,
Lena runs towards him. I fully assume they're going to

(31:11):
embrace and restart a family and they're going to have
an interesting and different world. But that is not what happens.
He runs out after her and tries to whip her,
and I think successfully does sound like just fully attacks her. Yes, yeah,
Henry Foster runs away because um, all men are cowards
in this world. But yes, and Henry Foster runs away,

(31:36):
and I think she might be dead anyhow. Then the
Sandwich goes back to his house and hangs himself. I
think they also have an orgy on her dead body, yes,
orgy porgy. Yeah. They have just like just overcome with
like a motion, but their conditioned not to know how
to handle it except in that way until they have
an orgy, which John participates too, because he's like everything

(32:00):
is so crazy, like I might as well just give
in to what's happening. And then the next morning he
is so guilty that he had an orgy that yeah, yeah,
which again, the scale of things that are bad and
good about this world is like a certain level of
sexual openness is I would say, on the better scale

(32:22):
if you can also marry that with a commitment and love.
Um and John thinking that every woman who wants sex
is a strumpet who should be beaten and whipped to
death not a good thing kind of well, I mean, look,
is is love incompatible with a society that is this
calm and happy and prioritize has comfort as much? Well?

(32:43):
I think they do love things. I think that they
love things in a different way than we perceive love.
Like they love electromagnetic and obstacle golf. They love it.
But I do think love monogamy is possessive, right, and
there is inherent jealousy and like owning an object, not
that you're owning a person, but possessing an exclusivity with

(33:05):
a person, it does lead itself to jealousy and you
want things that other people have and you can't have
certain people, and well, feelings aren't quite it. I feel
like it's toxic. Monogamy is that. I feel like monogamy
doesn't have to be that monogamy doesn't have to be
inherently jealous. I think that recognizing that you can't be
everybody to one person is important, and I don't mean

(33:29):
that in terms of a sexual way, but like, your
partner should be able to have friends. Your partner should
be able to have a coworker where they make cheeky
jokes and that's okay with you if that's something that
they want. Like, I think that that there needs to
be a conversation about what monogamy means to you. But
I think that there's this culture that exists, maybe more

(33:52):
so back then but especially now where it's like, oh,
you're my person, you're my person, that's it. And well,
I also you really just have to be on the
same page. Like I don't care if Mike Pens and
his wife want to do they're thing that I think
it's kind of weird for he's not allowed to talk
to other women, and I'm sure she's not allowed to

(34:14):
talk to other men. And they're calling each other mother
and father. Okay, it's weird to me. It's not what
i'd want for my marriage. But it seems like they're
both very much on the same page and that makes
them happy. But so I think I think I'm speaking
a little more abstractly where it's not about the actual
nature of monogamy. It's the nature of strong feelings for
anything and a possessiveness. Then like, even if it's not

(34:34):
like cheating, it's like if the person die, like there's
a loss and and and there's pain and loving something. Yeah,
well there's family to family is a kind of love. Yeah.
I think they're also is that this is this is
last about all that. Yeah, it's more about familial love
and romantic love, and those two things inherently as perfect

(34:58):
and healthy as they it can be in the most
healthy version, there is grief involved in those relationships, because
if it's not through a divorce or a breakup, it's
through someone dying or like with a child, it's them
moving away, you know, like there's there's so much grief
because the feelings are so intense, and that this society

(35:21):
has gotten rid of those griefs and losses in and
but they've also gotten rid of deep, meaningful love. I mean,
Dorothy Parker has this great quote where she says, it's
so easy to be sweet to people until you love them,
And I think that's true. I would never speak to
like my postman the way I spoke to my mother

(35:43):
when I was fifteen, when I told her that she
was like full on destroying my life. Um, like it is.
And you know, if if somebody killed my husband, I
would want to hunt them down and kill them. Those
are not civilized rational feelings that lead to everybody is
happiness and well being. And my biggest fear is my

(36:04):
parents dying, and like that is that rue that ruins
my life, the thought of that, And yeah, that is
a pain because I have something good and I don't
want it to go away. I just want to speak
to grief. And I think that having community is what
makes grief bearable and what makes grief something that can
be compatible with civilization, because it's like the moment when

(36:27):
some you have somebody in your life die and we
talked about this um or we don't talk about it,
but it comes up in the hate you give. How
everybody comes together after Khalil's death and they're all there
for each other to support each other in this terrible
time where somebody has taken too soon. And I think
that the problem with John losing Linda is that there's

(36:48):
no template for it. They're like, why are you like
this eating a Claire have some soma, Like it's not
that deep. People die, and because I think it's just
two world views being incompatible. So it is about, like
Jen just said, being on the same page. I really
like the quote that John says in his sort of
like monologue towards me Stop Amount where he's quoting the

(37:10):
one book he's read and he's talking about Hamlet and
he says like, you know, to bear the slings narrows
aboutrage of sports, and he's like, well, you just made
instead of bearing it, you just do away with the
slings narrow So it's like, I totally, Karama, You're totally right.
Like our society has come up with ways to cope
with that grief through like communities, and they're just like, well,

(37:32):
what if we just didn't. I was so mad when
he did that quote because he misquoted it, and I was, yeah,
I had to double check because I was like, look,
I don't know much, but I know to be or
not to be when I used to work out. Hello, well, um,
I used to recite to be or not to be
when I was on the rowing machine so that it
would feel less traumatic. I'm making a face, Karama. That

(37:56):
is the most taps concentrator ship I've ever happened, where
I'm sorry. It's something that I remembered that I knew
well that I could go through. And he says whether
tis in the book all this? Huxley says whether tis better?
And I was like, tis nobler? Motherfucker. I was like,
that's wrong and I checked. It was like, there's no

(38:16):
version of this that would have been really an amazing
power move. At the end of Bernard's speech must Off,
it was like, tis nobler, Oh my gosh, Mike drop
if I wrote that TV show, That's what I would Uh,
That's what I would do. Is kind of dumb. John

(38:39):
is definitely dumb, but I think he could he not
be also because he doesn't. I mean he formulates his
arguments well, but the fact that he thinks the solution
is just go into a forest and pray all day
on his knees, Like, that's not a productive use of
your energy. Also, I don't think that's also a weird narcissism,

(39:00):
a weird distraction. Absolutely, he became very bernard like by
the end, well, and like he had never really been
shown much kindness except for that one old man at
the reservation, and no one really taught him anything, like
he had been taught how to read, but not to
comprehend fully what he's reading. And I think that so, like, genuinely,

(39:21):
how could he not be bad at formulating arguments and
bad at making these connections like he has he is learning,
but he has no education. Well, that's almost the most
interesting thing to me. As also, as we said, there's
no protagonist in this book, like John is not a hero,
and again he murders Learning at the end, and if
he doesn't, he maims her. But in a less nuanced

(39:43):
or maybe even more modern dystopian book, usually there is
a character who's meant to be like an audience placeholder,
who always is like voicing things as if they're the
reader from our world who just came into that world,
you know, like Catanus and Hunger games, being like this
is wrong, we shouldn't have hunger games. Like yeah, they
shouldn't have a Hunger game right where it's like someone

(40:06):
who's like predor naturally wise and has a perspective on it.
So none of these characters have perspective on their society. Honestly,
I think the only one that does is missed off
a mom mom, because completely saw that he knew the
old world. And whether you know, you agree with him
or not about this dystopia, he gets both sides, Like

(40:29):
he understands the benefits of not being in the society
and having romantic love and art, but he like I
chose not to, which makes his position as the resident
world controller pretty diabolical. Yes, absolutely, the fact that he
can just sit there and talk to John about oh yeah,

(40:51):
I see your side of things, and I saw it
from that perspective as well, And he probably maybe would
have ended up in the same position as John if
he just didn't wasn't offered a position of power. Well,
that's sort of the scary thing is when you have
someone like Mustafa Mound looking at a population and saying like,
all right, we will predestined that everyone just lives a

(41:11):
comfortable life and lives and does their job and plays
golf and dies. You're like, well, why are these people
even living? It's like an ant colony, Like you could
just kill Like if your life is just like a
meaningless array of soma pleasantries, Like what is the difference
between that and life and death? Like if to me
it reads as Mustafa mind, like playing with an ant colony,

(41:33):
And that's what to me. I mean, maybe this is interpretation,
but like propping up billionaires and making them to you
to be rich and have their machines run and they
buy their clothes and their soma and their perfumes and
their feelies and and their mechanical golf and whatever that
like they need all those people to do that because

(41:55):
that He even mentions like the iceberg as the perfect
example of what the society is that like the tip
is that like at the very top, I was like,
your numbers are wrong. He was like, it was like
one night about the water, eight nights below the water.
But I think it's because I had like nine pasts

(42:16):
or something. Maybe the wealth disparity was less less crazy,
because now it is. But it did feel like he
was describing late stage capitalism for sure. I wanted to
talk about the epigram, the quote at the beginning, the
epigraph or epigram, which one is it? Um? I think
it's the epigraph. Yes, the epigraph, a word that I

(42:37):
knew for sure. Um. So it's in French um which
in French. I was one of my teachers force um,
so I just have to give me a French No.
I definitely had to use Google Translate to get some
of this though, because I was like, it's been a while,
but it basically boils down to um. Utopias are basically

(42:59):
becoming more realizable then we believed before, and we find
ourselves actually in front of a more um agonizing question,
which is, how do we avoid the definitive realization of Utopia's?
Utopias are realistic life marches towards utopias, and maybe in

(43:21):
a in the beginning of a new century, a century
where intellectuals and the cultivate, cultivated class can dream of
a method of avoiding the utopias, we can return to
a society non a non utopian society, less perfect and
more free. And I think that that's a really interesting

(43:41):
like little summary of the book and the idea of
less perfect and more free and interesting that we are
trying to form a more perfect union. I think that
have any of you read? Yeah, so that's another That's
another book that is sort of compared to this a lot,
because you know they I think that was written in
the fifties, but like similar, similar eras and and both

(44:06):
dystopi into a degree. Even though nineteen four is like
objectively a full totalitarian government, I would argue that, you know,
Brave New World is equally totalitarian, but just like more
pleasant where it's like the defectors in Brave New World
when you're different, you just like go to the Falkland
island and they're like great, we're in like breat In nine.
They like torture you with rat which is bad. Um

(44:27):
yea difference rats are islands. Yeah, it's interesting. Mustafa does
talk about that that like force, that they tried to
kill people like you do this through force and fear
and it didn't work, like it could just cause civil
unrest and they're like, oh no, we can't have that.
And I thought that was really interesting. And that's how

(44:49):
you know that this is like every piece of this
is designed by very evil people because they just want
to control the masses. It's just that, like what is it,
you get get more flies with honey? Civil civil unrest
like inspires heroism, you know what inspires glory? When really

(45:13):
kissed me off about the misquoted Shakespeare was because he
had just been talking about being noble and then he
didn't even say the word noble where it was in
the text. Like I was a big man about this tongue.
But I think I used to public speaking. That's I mean,
he's pretty private at that point. I think it's interesting
that Mustafaman's last name is world in French. He's like

(45:34):
born to be the world's controller. Again, I took French.
I don't know if you all knew I did. Like
the little came as of all the of all the
people with their with their names like um, the Malthusian belts,
which is like the reproduction. But malthest is the the

(45:55):
economist who talks about population and growth. So that makes
sense that like to limit, just like Alice is like
look at all the people. I know, I went to
major and he did. He didn't even have Google. He
did not that's impressive. They were just up there in
his noggin, but apparently not the correct version of to

(46:16):
be or not to be. It was late in the book. Yeah,
John is one book, his entire fucking life. Editor, I
blame Elvis's editors. That's fair. Whoever you are, all this
is editor. I hope you hear this from beyond the
grave and you're ashamed of yourself. I bet they are.

(46:37):
I bet they're hearing it being like we know it's
really it's one regret. That's why I'm stuck on earth
because it's my unfinished we talk about the show at all.
I was about to say most of us did not
watch the show. The one thing that came up in
the text chat that I want to bring up is
actress Demi Moore playing Linda. Yeah, because Demi Demi is

(47:00):
the antithesis of human age. She's the opposite of human Yeah,
don't worry to make her into a sex symbol on
the show. Also, she doesn't like to to die slowly
by taking soma she's shot is she heroically gets her
son to safety so he can go back to the
or likes her as just like this, this like tragic

(47:21):
figure It was really interesting because in the show, the
Savage Area is an amusement park. It's not a reservation.
They love West World, it's our West World, but like
it's got real quote unquote savages. But they're all like, um,
they're all working class white people, what some might call

(47:44):
trailer trash. Is what is the that's the like vibe
like that. But they're also if you like, yeah, yeah,
it's exactly like that. But that's also interesting because then
those people are also are they familiar with Do they
know they're in a theme park? Yes? And it's like
they're just we're that's weird because then they know about

(48:07):
the outside world exactly though some force field that prevents
them from going out. I just watched the first episode,
the first two episodes are free um, and I like
it was very weird because basically they were like, oh,
the regular people are not regularly. They didn't say regular,
but the people from New London can walk in and

(48:28):
out of that blue force field and it makes you
wonder if they're even human. And I was like, wait,
are they human? What is this blue force field? What's
going on? When a lot of stuff happens in the
TV show that's not happened in the book. A lot
of it is not good to someone really had to
take some things that I do enjoy less racist off
the bat, A lot of people of color characters seems

(48:51):
like they are not They're not like mixing the They're
mixing the casts up a little bit more. The C
A S T E casts, not B C A st cast. Um,
Henry's Asian. Okay, so everybody's sexually fluid. So everybody everyone
truly belongs to everyone else. Yeah, um, yeah, so Henry's Asian.

(49:13):
Franny is black. Um. And then we already talked briefly
about how Helmholtz is a woman named Wilhelmina. So Holm
for sure does she is. She's still like a hot commodity.
She's she's the Andy Warhole. She's doing Andy warhol because
she wears the silver with yea this little haircut that she's.

(49:37):
I don't think I saw him in the first episode.
I I did look at the IMDb, and I think
Mustafa is that they gender flipped that character too. I
think dystopian modern dystopians love like a steely woman to
be in church. That's like the new trend of like
a woman in a gray suit. Oh yeah, it's like
totally Kate Winslett and Divergent, Yes, and from You and

(50:01):
Julianne Moore. Yeah yeah, I think that or Tillington and
Snow Piercer. Oh yeah, I love Snow for fun. That's
a that's a good dystopia. That's a fun dystopia. All right,
they're making it into a TV. Before we leave, let's

(50:23):
go around and say, if you had to live in
a dystopia, you have to live in it. You which one?
What do you want to live in? Wait? Do I
get to choose? Like? Can I in charge? No, You're
not in charge. You're just a citizen. It can be
a book, TV show, anything, but we all have to
sort of collectively agree to dystopia. What about the one
we're in now? I just think it's clever, But now,

(50:48):
oh this one is hot. It's hard, Okay. I mean
I think, Um, if we lift in the Hunger Games,
we live in America, and um, you know we live
in wealthy parts of America, we would definitely live in
the capital. I doesn't feel bad about the games going on,
but the clothing is very good. We could have like

(51:10):
a protest. That is also true where it's like we
are the coastal elites. And also in the Hunger Games,
it's it's only ten eleven. Oh, you're not even going
to come to my capital, lady pro it's tunny, so correct,
I bet you there are the protests were going afterwards.

(51:33):
I'll come to the protest, but I'll be like you, look,
as long as if it keeps everyone. There's a lot
of deaths now, a lot of kids die. Be clear, kids,
you're going to be moderate conservatives. I don't say that.
I think I choose to live in the purge. Can

(51:55):
I live in the purge? Yeah? I don't scar. I
I was that's what I was gonna do West World,
because especially are you a robot or are you a person?
Either one? There they are benefits. The robots don't ever
remember anything and then eventually suprising, and that seems very

(52:16):
fun the robots or whatever if robots, but if you're
a human. But as a woman visitor, I feel like
the men visitors are terrible, but the women visitors just
a saloon like flirt with James Morriston. And I'm saying,
what about friends? When the robot uprising happens and you're
a human well, yeah, you would know I was already friends. Yeah,

(52:38):
we were friends with the robots. We wouldn't be like
we're Yeah, m if I'm just a regular person, I
either choose the Purge or Dollhouse, because in Dollhouse, I
would be a regular person unaffiliated with the Dollhouse. I
would not be rich enough to partake at the Dollhouse.
I don't think that I am like conventionally hot enough

(52:59):
to be a doll So I'm just like a person
in Los Angeles. Yeah, you know, I think I did
you guys ever read The Giver when you were a kid?
Of course? Yeah, I think I know that that's a
dystopia where like colors don't exist in like strong sexual
feelings don't exist, but like they're all emotionally healthy and

(53:21):
your family and you like talk about your day. They
kill all the twins, do they they have to murder? Yeah?
God is not I said it happened. Yeah, I was like,
it has to be a dystopia. Westly slaves sentient beings

(53:44):
or I mean, honestly, runner up would be bring the
World and that's sent to one of the tropical islands.
Oh wait, I might be changing my opinion, which one,
would you be the bottom? Actually, stufford Wives would be
great if you just like, don't live in Connecticut because
I know man like I like, Oh jen Jennifer, Jennifer,

(54:12):
Oh Jennifer, this is worse than making pies. It is
Christians decorations. Jennifer. I would purchase shut out of you.
You're going to be the first courage. The great thing
about the purchase you get to save up for three

(54:35):
hundred and sixty four days all of the rage that
you have and then directed whoever ye with no consequences.
But every year definitely gets worse because they probably killed
someone you loved last year, so now you've got to
go run. And here's the other here's the other upside
of the purge. All laws cease to exist on the
night of the purge, which means like doing community gardens.

(54:56):
I was like, not allowed unity gardens. Yeah, no, no,
laws that are dumb extortion. I would extort people are
going to we're going into purge discussion. This is too far.
I'm very sweaty. I was like, I would build something
in my backyard without a proper permit. Yeah, I would

(55:18):
park on the street. Sweeping side of the happens on
the first I'm not paying rent. Uh, this was a delight.
Thank you Jennifer, tan Mellis and Grandma for joining me.
Brave New World is a series on Peacock if you want.
But it sounds like it is not similar to the book. Uh,

(55:38):
it has the bones of the book. I'm going to
say it has the bones of the book, but it's
got a real different muscles. That's our show for the week.
Thank you so much for listening. I'm Danis Schwartz and
you can find me on Twitter at Danis Schwartz with
three z s. You can follow Jennifer Wright at Jen
Ashley Right, Karama Downqua is at Karama Drama, Melissa Hunter

(56:02):
is at Melissa f tw and Tian Tran is smart
enough to have gotten off Twitter, but she is on
Insta at Hank Tina. Our executive producer is Christopher Hessiotes
and we're produced and edited by Mike John's special thanks
to David Wasserman. Next week we will get some screen
time and talk about how the Peacock adaptation of Brave
New World diverges wildly from the novel spoiler alert, but

(56:26):
like way different. All right, see you next week. Popcorn
book Club is a production of I Heart Radio.