Lovecraft Country (Part 1)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, they're friends. I know that we don't necessarily need
to seek out literature to fill us with a creeping
sense of existential dread, you know, because we're living right now.
But there is something to be said for using horror
to reclaim power. This is Popcorn Book Clip from My
Heart Radio, and this week we are starting up a
discussion of Lovecraft Country by Matt Ruff, which is now

(00:25):
a series on HBO, premiering August seventeen. We talk about
the terrifying monsters hiding in the woods and the monsters
right out there in the open. Grizzly bear ate them,
Atticus replied, trying not to dwell on the next question,
why them and not us? Yeah, grizzly bears are not racist.
Here we go. Hey, this is Danish Schwartz here listening

(00:47):
to Popcorn Book Club for my Heart Radio. And as
always I'm joined by my co host Tian Tran karamadon Qua,
Jennifer Right, and Melissa Hunter. How's everyone doing? Jeff Fine? Fine?
I feel like fine is the just the answer for
the next year. Maybe just it's we're surviving. Yeah, if

(01:12):
anyone's doing more than fine, I'm like, I don't trust you. Yeah,
you're a socio. You're you're not paying attention. Today we
are diving into our first section on Lovecraft Country by
Matt Ruff, about to be a very busy HBO series,
and I spoiler alert went a little bit past our

(01:33):
assigned reading and sort of a series of loosely interconnected stories.
Today we are just talking about the first and longest story,
the first one. I gotta, I gotta do these things.
I gotta prepare us all. No, I definitely flipped through
and as like what the fund can happened? I started

(01:55):
because it is such a like short story. Oh I
am at the cat like at the casting, I am
so excited what is his name? The man from Last
Black Man of San Francisco, that's the star of it,
and also excited for Journeyman who's playing. Oh yeah, yeah,

(02:17):
it's gonna be really good. I'm glad to see she's
still getting work after her brother. It's not her fault.
She's amazing. She's been around forever since Friday Night Lights. Yeah,
I want to talk about this, but I'm curious also
who they get to play, like Caleb, Like, who's just
like the whitest French school guy. Yeah, oh yeah, I

(02:40):
want to see for a lot of a lot of
actors that could play that part. Hollywood loves white prepan.
Oh my any any Hammer was in a Broadway play
called Straight White Man. So he's any Josh or Chris
or Scott. You know, there's a lot of you know Chris.

(03:02):
It's like when a when a shiny actor decides to
sort of take on and become a villain a little bit. Yeah,
he has ranged It's like a Chris is going to
be like, look what I can do. It's a Chris.
It's like a Chris Kratt. He's like I was a
clown and now I'm an action hero and now I'm evil.
The problem with Chris Pratt is I secretly think like

(03:23):
maybe he's a little too racist. Yeah this is I'm
not saying he's just he's a very maga. He has
a maga, and I have stopped paying attention to him.
I bet you're right. I mean there was some controversy
with the church that he does remember or something like that,

(03:45):
and I think he was like, well, you know, it's
just my church, and I'm like, yeah, but you keep going.
That's like I don't want an actor in that role
saying really racist things that you're like, does he believe it?
You're so right, But this is all allegedly. Please, if
you're a Chris Pratt stand don't don't come Chris Pratt

(04:06):
lawyer come after. This is all alleged. This is just
vibe that I get Sotograft Country dive into the first
section of Lovecraft Country. Uh, Jennifer, do you want to
take the loose plot summary as it begins? Um? Yes,

(04:27):
all right. So it is the nineteen fifties. Um Atticus
has just returned from the Korean War. Um, he's back
from service, and he's driving back home because he's got
a letter from his father about his um family history
and his mother's people, and his father has spent a

(04:50):
lot of time kind of delving into her genealogy and
finding out where she's from. So Addics is making his
way home, and right away we kind of get a
sense for what it would be liked for a black
person to be driving across the country at that time.
He has his copy of the Safe Negro Travel Guide
with him, which is supposed to act as a guy

(05:15):
that will help him no motels and restaurants that he
can stop off safely without being harassed, but pretty much
right away. Um. He has a tire go out and
he walks two miles into town, but he immediately gets
to a car repair place run by white people who

(05:37):
will not sell him a tire, so he has to
wait for hours to get a tire pulled up. Um.
While he's doing that, he's reading the kind of science
fiction and fantasy stories that he likes. I believe he's
reading the Martian Chronicles, my favorite book. Yep. Mm and um,

(05:58):
he gets taken in by some very nice people. He
explains the situation to them. He finally makes at home
where he which is um home in Chicago. He makes
it home. Um. He talks to his friend George. Um,

(06:18):
but uncle George, sorry, um, uncle George, who also his friends.
They yeah, um. They share a little bit about their
love for these fantasies, stories and lovecraft, but they also
talk about how as a black person in America those
stories can break your heart and how said he was

(06:40):
when he realized that the people they were fighting against
the in Tarzan were all the people who looked like him,
So like, this could be a good time to then
to talk about what what we have with this I
thought it's a really great scary opener. Yeah, what did
you guys make crom I do want to turn to you.

(07:02):
Obviously you're the only black person in this group, and
I'm interested in your perspective. Listeners, you can't see me,
but I'm black, and what it was like to experience
reading you know this this incredibly visceral and scary firsthand
account of racism, not an actual firsthand account of fictionalized person. Right. So,
on that note, I feel weird about Matt Ruff being

(07:25):
a white person and writing this book. I'm not saying
that he is. Everyone is entitled to write whatever they want,
and I also think that any reader is entitled to
critique that and decide who's telling what stories. Um So,
I did appreciate that it was written in the third person.
That was kind of like, my okay, okay, we can

(07:47):
just pretend that it's not a white dude writing it.
Um I didn't think that the beginning was that scary
because it didn't feel like fiction to me. It was like, oh, yeah,
this happens, and like, I've had my tire blow out
on the side of the road in the middle of
the night, and I was very scared. Not because I

(08:08):
was like, oh, um, I don't know what I'm gonna do,
but I was like, I really need to make sure
that nobody thinks that I am here for nefarious reasons
and there's no real way to call for help. I mean,
there are stories these days, like in the twenty one century,
not in the nineteen fifties, of black people who have
gone to people's houses and asked for help and been

(08:29):
like shot in the face. So stuff like that does
happen today. So I was like, oh, yeah, this is this,
this is right. So I don't know, I didn't think
it was that scary because it was a scary that
was a real scary. It's like, yeah, it was regular
scary to me. I thought it was interesting. The whole

(08:51):
conceit of this book is taking the beloved genre of
sci fi, which is problematic when you look at who
was writing it and some of the things they were writing,
and challenging it in a critical lens, but from a
place of love, which I appreciate because I am someone
I love science fiction. I grew up reading that. My

(09:12):
first like big heartbreak I remember was reading Enders Game,
which is a book that I still love and then
finding out that the author or some Scott Card is
like not even allegedly like actually just like the world's
worst person, like the most homophobic person in the world,
and it's just it. It is like a weird heartbreak
of like, oh my god, this person who like spoke

(09:34):
to my heart in such a visceral way. They're they're bad. Yeah,
I know a lot of people are kind of going
through Yeah. Yeah, Like Margaret Atwood is just rolling in
their strong I think, uh, I think she is still
a relentlessly good person. So fingers crossed it. Margaret Atwood

(09:57):
makes it across the finish line without saying nothing horrible. Yeah.
I met her once and actually I met her twice,
and she complimented my phone case. You're safe, I would say.
She seems real great. I also better once and told
her that him So was my favorite book and she

(10:19):
asked if we could get a picture together, and very nice.
So bigger cross. Margaret Outwood continues to be unproblematic. Keep
up the good work, what you're doing for you, Margaret Outwood.
But it's like I appreciate the effort and energy and

(10:40):
attention of recognizing that the established genre tropes of sci
fi are often rooted in colonialism and imperialism and racism
and being like, well, how do we reckon with that
in a in a way that seems interesting? I mean
it's not just siloed to sci fi either, Like this
one section that was very Atticus was talking to Uncle

(11:04):
George or maybe it was even Earl when they were
talking about how just like they would read these stories
and like not, you know, it would be white characters
like the default, and you wouldn't even like question that.
And I feel like growing up as a kid of color,
like that's what you I mean, like those were all
the books I read. All my heroines and heroes were
like white people, and you then reckon like you look

(11:27):
back and you're like, ah, it would be cool if
there were stories that represented all of us. I mean
I didn't read as much sci fi, but I watch
a lot of it. And what a lot of horror.
I'm a big horror fan, and you know, it's all
this fear based stuff and if it's written and directed
by white people, it's like what were they afraid of
in the twenties? And third, like there is the first

(11:50):
zomba is called white zombie and it's about a voodoo
and like, you know, all these white people being under voodoo.
It's like very explicitly being like we are afraid of
black people. It's insane. But I do feel like what
you're saying with this book and with you know, I
know he is not he is white Matt Ruff. But

(12:11):
I think newer sci fi and genre writers are flipping
that and like using like Jordan Peel, I'm so excited
to see the series like inverting it of like the
fears of of black people and and not white people
or women an invisible man, like there's just so I'm

(12:33):
really excited how the genre has completely taken a turn.
And I liked him the way you pointed out that
like white is so often seen as the default that
you I noticed in this book that whenever there is
a white character, he specifies that they're white, and then
the opposite that like black is the default in this book,
and if it's a white person, he says white person,

(12:53):
and that all the white people are terrifying in this
monsters or or just scared, like like you're just not
sure what's going to happen, And that's usually the reverse
in you know, that was Okay, I think which one William. Yeah,
but I was terrified of William when he came in.

(13:17):
He turned out no, I said, okay, just following orders.
What I loved was the people like William. It felt
suspenseful because he was so nice to them and treated
them in a way that was not normal. So it's

(13:38):
like something's fucking up, you know, And thankfully he was
on the right side. But you know, you're like, he's
too nice. I worry that. I just like good manners
so much. But I was more taken and sacrificed. Jennifer, Yes,
I wouldn't. I would have taken the pretty dress and

(14:03):
dress we're all having a good time here times when
we have together special room. We're getting ahead of our
jen I think that part of that is because you
are white, so you would feel absolutely true. Um. I
think the part of this that was very foreign to
my experience with the idea that you would have a

(14:26):
tire break and go to an auto repair shop and
people would not be nice to you, um, and they
would not take your money. That is a very foreign
experience for white people. I think, uh, Karama. We take
the next section of the plot. We have the police
encounter with with Atticus the first time, but then he

(14:46):
arrives in Chicago and and gets his mission. Yes, so
he So Atticus arrives in Chicago, he goes to Uncle
George's office and hangs out with him. We find out
that Uncle George has a wife named Apolita and then
a child named Jupiter. Did I make that up? The
child has like the dorkiest name in the world, but
I found it adorable. Horace, Horace, Horace, that's worse. So

(15:15):
we go to uncle George's in Chicago. UM, it is
his office where he does the travel guide, and we
find out that Uncle George has a wife named Hippolita
and a son named Horace, which, wow, you remember that
off the dome. I did remember that off the dome.
There was no recall needed. UM and UH. We learn

(15:41):
a little bit about the fact that Montrose and uh
and Atticus have some tension. And we learned that before
UH he went off to war and he enlisted. UH. So,
before he enlisted to go to the army and fighting Korea,
they had a fight head Montrose was like pissed, and

(16:03):
then while he was gone, he wouldn't even mention him.
He wanted to know if he was okay, so he
would hang out with Uncle George but then not ask
about him and wait for Uncle Dredge to say something.
And if Uncle George didn't say anything, he would just
kind of hang out at his house until he said something,
which I think is adorable toxic masculinity. They both are

(16:26):
are trying to deal with racism in in opposite ways.
With George, I got the sentence to trying to adapt
to the system by making his travel guy and sing,
all right, how do we do this in a livable way?
Where Montrose is more uh not anti militaristic, but more
takes a harder line of like no, if you fight,
that is for this racist institution, and Mantras is very

(16:48):
clearly on the side of fun white people. I mean,
So we learned a little bit about that tension between
them and that when after a year fighting in Korea,
Atticas came back, he was going to do an interview
with the magazine about being a black soldier who had enlisted,
and that's sort of when their relationship really fell apart.

(17:10):
Blue to Smithereens because he was like, it's bad enough
that you did this to yourself and you want to
fight for these people who would not fight for you,
But now you're gonna go and encourage other black people
to throw their lives away and do that. I don't
think so. And then they got into a physical altercation.
I think it's also worth mentioning at this point that

(17:31):
um addiccas mother is deceased, and so there is sort
of no buffer between them, and I feel like she,
based on what we've read in the book, she was
sort of that buffer between them for their relationship. Um
So they get into a physical fight, and then he
hasn't seen his father since then, is my understanding. And
then he gets this postcard that's like, come home. You

(17:53):
have an inheritance, you have a legacy that is yours.
You must come home and meet me an Artem, And
there's this whole thing where the D and Artem looks
like a K. So he thinks it's Arcam, which is
from a love Craft story. Also is the name that
they use for the prison for the criminally Insane in
the DC universe. Uh, So that's where that comes from.

(18:18):
And Atticus makes this decision to go and follow his father.
Uh and George says he'll come with him because he
wants to find some more stuff for the Guide, and
they realize that this county, Devon County, where Artem is located,
is a sundown county, which is way more terrifying than
the sundown town and a sundown town for anybody who's

(18:42):
never heard of it is a place where if you
are a person of color, uh in this instance, particularly
black people, you do not want to be there when
the sun goes down. Basically, when the sun goes down,
all bets are off, you will be murdered uh fun times.
So I think that's a good place to stop. Yeah,
that is uh this, I mean, it's like I feel
like unfortunately many white people's are hopefully not first but

(19:07):
maybe the most popular culture familiarity with the idea of
like Guide is from book. While I'm very glad that
this is not the experience that they had to teach
Vigos how to be a slightly less racist person. Yeah,

(19:27):
it was a relief to at least read this book,
even though it was written by a white man, that
it's all black characters dealing with this, and that it
is being adapted by black people into a mini series
and will hopefully reach a lot of people and be
a more nuanced depiction than green and just so that

(19:47):
people have an understanding of sundown towns. These did not
just exist in the South. And I think that's something
that's really important about this book is that it's very
much about northern racism. Um and it is like Burbank,
California was a sun downtown and uh, yeah, it's a
lovely town. Now you can go there, and you can.

(20:09):
I've been there after the sundown. I've been to many
of their AMC's. They have three amc which they have
a lot of movie theaters. And I think it's so
interesting that this book is dealing with the racism in
the North, because when I was talking to a few
friends that I was going to be reading this book,
almost every single one of them, without fail, was like, oh,
is that the sci fi about Jim Crow South? Because

(20:30):
it's just like roll it like it rolls off people's
tongues thinking that that is like a thing that is
just you know, like stuck in the South. And it
was like, no, it's I mean, our cohold country is racist. Yeah,
a lot of people didn't think it was just in
four states one thousand years ago. Well and HB. Lovecraft,

(20:53):
who is himself a racist, is from and he's dead,
so his lawyers can't come after us. Um So he
also if they say, if they come after us for
saying HP Lovecraft is racist, I feel like we could
pull out even in the book. In the book, if
the Lovecraft family estate has listened to us, I'd be like, Okay,

(21:17):
thank you for listening. Um So. HP Lovecraft is from Providence,
Rhode Island, a place where Dana and I both lived
for several years and that's where we met. Um So
like the north and I will say I loved living
in Providence. But again they're changing their name from the
state of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations to not that

(21:39):
because bad and how there was a vote on it
many years ago and they were like, it's too much
of a bother, And as a black person living in
Rhode Island at the time, I was like, oh, okay,
I see you. So I feel like it's really important
to talk about northern racism also known as racism, and

(22:00):
it's like with with somewhere like Rhode Island. I feel
like people are very proud of Rhode Islands, like Bona
FIDE's that it was founded by, like er a very
accepting abolitionist place. And sometimes if you're just like, well,
that's good, We're done, and then that's not how racism works.
And I also think it's important to talk about when
we talk about abolitionists were like, oh, they didn't want slavery,

(22:22):
so they were not racist, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, yeah.
The fact that they did not think that black people
should actually be does not mean that they thought black
people were chill, cool friends that they would want, like
their families to be integrated with. They were still like, oh, yeah,

(22:42):
I don't really think that they should be here, but
they certainly shouldn't be property. That's bad. And in Lovecraft
Country the book, I believe it is Devon County, which
is right just south of New Hampshire, and it's basically
the only way through to this tiny, tiny town Arkham
um Artem. Sorry, yes, that is the that is the mistake.

(23:04):
They makes apparently look very similar, so they have to
go through Devon County and because I can't go the
other way because it's too wooded and too tiny of
a road. And Devon County was founded by the people
who are too extreme for the Puritans, just like the
real crazy, the people who not the people who were

(23:27):
witches that were hunted, but the people who hunted witches.
And we're proud of it. Ye witches, We're gonna get you, Sabrina,
just really really bad. Uh. New England racism and you're
your classic racist, your classic New England racism, Like it's

(23:48):
almost a cliche. And I mean and that New England
racism also still exists today. In talking about all of this,
I don't think that it is necessarily a necessary for
every piece of media to go into like we are
going to talk about toxic masculinity, but I do think
that if you're going to show toxic masculinity, you need

(24:11):
to in some way at least one character addressed the
toxic masculinity. So on this road trip with it's George,
it's Atticus, and it's atticus childhood friend Letitia, who is saying,
I'm gonna come along to uh stop over and be
with my brother, but I want to come along with you.
The the event that I want to talk about on

(24:31):
this trip, uh, is what happened when they stop in
a dinet that George is like, oh, a friend told
me that it's fine, that it's it's good for black
people and it's going to be safe for us. And
they pull in and Atticus is like, I don't like
the look of this, and George is like, it's gonna
be fine. And that's where I was like, that's what

(24:53):
I just want to say. That's where I was like,
a white person wrote this, because I think none of
them would have gotten out of that fucking car. George
is told by a friend that there is a diner
that is in this town. What is this town called again?
This small mass is Simmonsville. That's right, Simmonsville, just like
on the on the way town. And as they roll

(25:13):
up already they see like a fireman or a guy
outside the fire station and he's kind of staring. It's
a white guy in suspenders, red flag and he's and
he's like kind of already giving them the eye, and
it's making Attic is uncomfortable. But George is like, no,
this diner is gonna be great. I've heard great things.
It's a red brick building, Like, it's gonna be fine,

(25:34):
don't worry. They get to the outside of the diner
and it's white painted white, and Atticus is like ah,
you said this was gonna be a red diner. And
Uncle George is kind of like maybe they remodeled, Like
he's like, we're gonna go eat this. Maybe they have
like a different taste. They wanted to change the vibe.

(25:54):
So they go in and there's already like, um, a
patron at the counter, an older white man, And as
soon as Uncle George, Atticus and Latitia walk in, he
like slams the table and runs out. Is that right, Yeah,
slams the table and runs out, and there's just the
only person that's working the vagina is this like you know,

(26:15):
he's just like yeah, he's the old Guy's like no,
and it is out. And then the teenagers just like
this little white boy who doesn't say a word is
just like completely silent. Already I'm scared. I'm like this
is this feels like Children of the Corn vibes in
this moment, like he's just like not saying anything. They're

(26:35):
being the like George is being very polite, overly polite,
is like just being very kind, being a human person
and is trying to get food ordered, and Latitia goes
back to the bathroom, and then the whole short story

(26:57):
so far. I know she must not be aimed, but
is giving me Like in the Trifecta of Friends and
the like two dudes and a woman hermiae vibes just
like so much hermia vibes like saving their asses multiple
times all the time. Um. And so they're sitting there

(27:19):
and I think, I think a little boy like goes
to the back and makes a phone call and George
and Atticus are still up in the front and they
don't know that this is happening. And as they're waiting
the cop, there's like a cop that pulls up, and
several firemen that pull up, and the guy that was
there before that had walked out, and they start approaching

(27:44):
the diner looking like they're going to be extremely violent,
and Atticus is like, Okay, I'll I can fucking take
a bunch of these dudes. Um. But then as they're
approaching the diner, they get distracted by something. Yeah, Letitia
released a horse so that she could cause a distraction,

(28:05):
yea that they could escape because she was in the
restroom and she overheard the little teenager dude on the phone.
He's like black people have taken over the diner, literally
sitting there asking to pay for coffee. They're very polite.
Something he did that that central part, call the call

(28:25):
the cops and tell them that a black person is
assaulting you a coper. Now they really coopered it, and
I believe the cop. Yeah yeah, yeah. They started shooting
after them, and so Atticus takes a revolver and starts
to shoot back. And then all of a sudden, a
silver car that only seemingly maybe only Atticus and George

(28:50):
and lets and it like side swipes or like cuts
in front of the police and the fire truck and
like just crap like leads to like a huge crash accident.
I feel like the fire truck flips right. But yeah, yeah,
this section of the book was directed by Michael Bay. Yeah.

(29:12):
Very fast and furious, very very transformers um and they
are able to get away. I very rarely feel like
I will enjoy the TV or movie of a book
more than I enjoy the book itself. I feel like
that might be true with this TV show. It is
all action all the time. They are always running away

(29:34):
from someone or in some sort of extreme distress. I
feel like it's going to adapt into a very thrilling
TV show. It's a lot of tension, it's a lot
of action, and those are both things that horror comedy
television does really well. Yeah, and you can you can see,
I mean you can see it, especially since you know,

(29:55):
like Jordan Peels involved and the actors. It's like, oh,
this is going to he's so good. I need a breather. Okay,
maybe we can take a little break here. It sounds good.
This is Popcorn book Club. We'll be right back after
this quick break. Okay, we're back with Popcorn book Club.

(30:25):
So I feel like the next the next major event
we hit is the sheriff in Devon County, the fourth
top in this first fourth pop interaction at in this
in like first hundred pages already. Yeah. Well, also there
was a part where Uncle George was talking about his

(30:45):
friend who had been in Devon County and that's how
it was a sundown county because he had had an
altercation with a police officer there. So I was like, no,
that happened already. But there are two sheriff encounters in
death truly that the scary are a story about the
friend who was reporting something for the Guide and the
sheriff basically was trying to trick him so he could

(31:07):
murder him. He was like he was like playing with
him for fun and running out the clock so that
he could kill him. I'm impressed that he just knew
what time sundown was. The police. When you want to
murder someone really bad day and that's the time of murder,
it's like the purge. You know, you're right, terrible. But

(31:32):
so then yes, people do know which it's not like
Shabat because we don't know there's no murder, that it
is not like Sabat, and that when it is sun down,
Jews do not indiscriminately shoot. Black people know they have
lovely dinners and spend time with their family away from technology.

(31:56):
It's beautiful. But they probably know when Sundays going. That's
what I make them. They know that that time all
year round. Karama, you want to take it with with
our our trio and the car and the sheriff. Yeah
sure so. Well, first before we get to the sheriff,
we go to Letitia's brother's house and that is where

(32:18):
they are supposed to part ways. And Letitia's like, the
funk you mean we're parting ways? I'm coming with you
and they're like, no, you're a girl. Which happens a
lot in this chapter. And she's like, but you think
that you're just safe by coincidence. I've been chosen by
God to keep you safe. And her brother is like, yeah,
she does that. Our mom used to do that. It's

(32:39):
a super weird thing that they do to manipulate people.
And she's like, no, it's not. I believe it. I'm
on board. She's literal magic in this chapter. I think
that is the least crazy statement. I am just saying
what the brother said. I am with y'all. But so
they decide, they're like, Okay, how do we do this.

(32:59):
What are the logistics of getting safely through Devon County
so that we can get to Artem so that we
can find Montrose and figure out things about my mother, Um,
not my Karamas mother, but Atticus his mother. Um, my
mother is not involved in this book at all. Uh.
So they're figuring out logistics. They decide they're going to

(33:20):
leave it like two in the morning, so that everybody's
still asleep when they get there, and then when the
sun comes up and people are waking up, they're already
there and there's nothing anybody can do, which in theory
is a great plan, but racists are Racism doesn't sleep, apparently,
so they get up there, like Letitia is not coming

(33:41):
out to say goodbye. We get it, she's angry, so
they leave. They take advantage of this plan. They go
in the night and they realize that they're not going
to outsmart anybody. And there are a lot of lights too,
and they're like, oh, every time we drive through one
of these lights, we feel super conspicuous and need to kill,
ready to be killed rather um. So the sheriff stops

(34:05):
them as they're turning onto a dirt road to try
and leave that this tiny town which is not a
real town, uh in Massachusetts. It was a faith yeah,
Biddeford or whatever. Yeah. I looked up different spellings of
it because it is based on a real town in
England where they did do the last of the witch killings.

(34:26):
And they there was a woman who was killed for
sleeping with a black man. She was like, oh, she
slept with a black man who was the devil, and
they're like killer, and I'm like, oh, I don't like that.
There are a lot of times where I was reading
the book and I said, oh, I don't like that
at all. Uh. So Biddeford. They were driving through Biddeford
and uh, the police stopped them on their way out

(34:49):
of Biddeford and they're like, oh, you thought you could
get away, And then they accused them of a series
of robberies and they're like, we don't know anything about
the robberies. He's like, I thought you were gonna say
that's just someone who did it, robbery would say, And
so he is like. Att Kiss is like to the cop, look,
you can search our car, which pisses the cop off

(35:10):
even more. He's like, you want to give me permission
to search your car? And I'm like that's literally in
the Constitution, but sure, um um, you can't do a
lawful search and seizure. It's the Fourth Amendment. Boom um.
So then they then they try and explain themselves and
Atticus is like, we are invited guests in Artem and

(35:31):
we're going to the manor house at the top of
the hill. My last name is Turner. I got people
there and my dad is there. And he's like, that's
a lie. You're lying. We're gonna you know what, We'll
take you to Artem and then he takes them into
the woods and they're going to shoot them, and then
magic happens and there's some sort of darkness that appears

(35:53):
of the darkness, and it takes out some of the deputies,
and then Leticia, who has hidden herself in the trunk,
which is why she didn't say goodbye. She was like,
there is no goodbye. She gets out and she like
wallops the sheriff over the head with a gas canister

(36:13):
and sets their car, the patrol car, on fire, because
that's what God asked her to do m v P. Truly,
she is not wrong. She's like, I'm here to protect you.
They go without her two times. I'm glad she got
her spoiler, but I'm glad she got her dresses. In

(36:34):
the end, I'm glad she got her dresses. She's gonna
rock them. I don't know where, but she's gonna do it.
So I think that's a good stopping point. They end
up escaping from the police because of a combined darkness,
which they explained to Leticias grizzly bears, but they're like
those were not bears, and yeah and uh. And then
Leticia setting the cop car on fire and attacking the

(36:57):
police officer because he did not know she was there
because no one knew she was there. It's this interesting
tension because all these supernatural stuff has sort of eerily
been helping them in terms of like the things that
you think you should be scared of, like this creepy
darkness and this silver car that appears out of nowhere

(37:17):
like their sinister But then they're like, oh, they're helping,
and the really scary things are just the non sci fi,
like the realistic things like the racist cops which exist. Yes,
I found myself helping that the ghost car would show
up for this entire time because it means to be
on their side. Yeah, it felt like the that cop

(37:41):
was the most I mean, I know there's other stuff
that comes, but was the most outwardly terrifying character. Like
we'll talk about the rest of it in a bit,
but like there was politeness in other places, and this
was just like pure hatred in a way that is
so visceral and terrifying. And even later the people will

(38:06):
get to with the the order um their racism seems
um based out of like a convenience, Like they're all racist,
but they're like, look, we're killing you, not because we
specifically hate you, but because we need to in this
way where like the sheriff seemed to take weird special
racist glee in it. Well, I think as far and

(38:27):
we're jumping ahead a little bit, but as far as
those people are concerned, what they are doing is necessary
and they are making a sacrifice for some kind of
noble religious cause. The sheriff wants to kill this name
for no particular reason, like other than he's very racist
and things. See it would be fun to kill a
black man for no reason. And it's like, I think

(38:49):
they're they're interesting, different flavors of racism. Not interesting. Part
of it is I'm reading right now for Noble Blood
my Mother podcast about Leopold the Second in the Congo
and he uh. Some people estimate ten million uh people
men and men and women and children in the Congo.
And then some historians are like, well, that wasn't quite

(39:11):
a genocide because he did it out of greed. He
just like worked them to death and if they didn't
work hard enough, killed them And you can't tell. My
Karama is just like going closer and closer to the
camera with am I unfamiliar with the word genocide? No,
I know, And I'm reading it and They're like, oh, well,

(39:32):
it wasn't like he just wanted to murder them on
an ideology, and you're like reading it, you're isn't isn't
an ideology that, like my rubber prophet is worth kid
than your lives as human? I think the upsetting thing
about making that genocide, in the eyes of some historians,
is that we'd have a lot more genocides on our

(39:53):
hand if we, uh, if we did that. And the
people love genal aside, but more than genocide. They love
saying the things that weren't that we're genocides. We're not genocides,
So sorry. In this comparison, what I guess I'm saying
is the people doing the order felt more Leopold the
second evil to me, which is sort of like the

(40:14):
banality of evil, like it's business, it's business, we're murdering
people for money or profit or magic, whereas like the
magic is a vulgar word, shreff is maybe more like
like Hitler evil. If that comparison tracks well, we will

(40:36):
either way. It's like bad across the board. The means
do not It's not no. No means no no end,
no means no justification bad, But there is a moment
too that in the book, Attic like in that moment,
Atticus is like, you get a glimpse. He's like, oh
my god, why did those weird monsters not attack us?

(40:57):
I'm not going to dwell on it, but why did
they not attack us? I won't think of it again.
He's yeah, he literally says, grizzly bear ate them. Atticus replied,
trying not to dwell on the next question, why them
and not? Yeah, grizzly bears are not racist. But what's
so nice after this is that they get to go

(41:19):
to the manor home and it is lovely. Boy, you
haven't a lot a great place to go. They're met
by William and the but have like only a slightly
sinister experience. Okay, Jennifer, take away the very I was very,
very excited. They are met by William, a lovely butler
who is incredibly polite to them. He takes Atticus up

(41:41):
to his room, and his room has all of atticus
favorite books. They also have a lovely change of clothes
for Atticus in the closet in Casey wants to dress
for dinners. But also they can have all of their
meals brought up to their rooms. George is super into that.
George is very excited about not having to leave their rooms,
just hanging out eating food safely as they cannot do

(42:04):
in a diner. I completely understand where Georgie's coming from there.
Letitia is very excited because her closet is filled with ballgowns.
They fit her perfectly. She tries on a beautiful ball gown,
which I have seen a preview of in the HBO show.
I'm very excited that actress. Yes, it's purple, it's lovely.

(42:28):
So basically everything is great, no problems exciting Montrey. Ever,
after Okay is not there, they sort of like brush
off thing of like, oh, he know he went to town.
They say he can see room if they want to,

(42:51):
but that doesn't tell me where somebody. They were like,
I can get the key, and then Atticus was like
I trust you, which was definitely a lie because William
is lying, so they're both lying, Um, yes, yes, I

(43:12):
can pick it up from there, unless we want to
take it away. So Atticus is like, no way, something
this is not right, and George is like, I don't know,
I this is pretty comfy to me, and Letitia is
really into her dress, but she's you know, down to
you know search. So they want to find Atticas wants
to find his father. He does not believe that he's

(43:35):
in Boston with Mr Braith White. Is that how you,
Braith White? So they what the lie was. He's in
Boston with Mond Roses, in Boston with Mr Braith White
until tonight or the morning. And so Atticus is like,
that's not true. We gotta go find him. It's like

(43:57):
where would he be. Well, there's this village type of
thing um that the Artemites I believe, or Atomites Adomites
live in. And they are simple folk as they keep saying, um.
And they're like Amish Amish adjacent. Um. They're like older right, yeah,

(44:18):
they're older than the Amish. They're simple in that they're
not simple and they're simple and that they just have
simple needs right there. They act like the Amish. They
don't need electricity or anything like that. Um, they're servants
right there. They feels like a very feudal kingdom. Yes exactly. Uh.

(44:43):
And they are able to live on Mr Braithwhite's expansive
property and offer protection and all they have to do
in exchange is toil for Mr Braith White's estate constantly.
They're very everybody was surfing USA. How long you've been

(45:04):
holding none of that? One seconds? Okay, that's pretty good,
thank you. Uh. And they're also very everyone is very pale,
like they're they described William as almost albino um. And
then Del, who we meet in the town is looks
like his his sister. So they go into the town.

(45:25):
They go into the church and they see this, uh,
same glass window image of Adam and Eve, but there's
no snake and there's no apple. They are just fucking
It's like it's like a pornographic stained glass window. Okay,

(45:50):
I know who thought somewhere the porn industry had thought
obviously there must be Adam and Eve porn um, but
never in a sting glass window, you know. Um. So
then they go outside. Then they try there's this really
ominous looking building and they knock on the door and

(46:11):
this woman Del who looks curiously like the Eve in
the stained glass um, and she like runs the town
a little bit and she's like, what are you guys
doing here? And they want to see what this place is.
It's like a butcher shop kind of. It's like where
all the animals like the manger, right, It's like, oh yeah,

(46:36):
but they specified that the animals make noise, because I
feel like Atticus is smart, and he's like, well, if
my dad is in there, they need to cover the noise. Yes, yes,
And then they Dells like, let me take you and
give you a little tour, and so she basically kicks
them out of town and and I was like, okay, goodbye.

(46:58):
And then as soon as Dell leaves, they try to
get into another area to look for Montrose, but then
dogs come out and look like they might attack, and
Del sees them and they head back up, being like, oh,
I'm so sorry I didn't I was lost. And uh.
Then they go back up I believe to the manor house. Yeah,

(47:21):
and I think it's dinner time, right yes. Oh. The
other great detail was that um Letitia is wearing this
Cinderella purple Cinderella address and they want to bring their gun.
Right is at the guns and then he doesn't know.
He's like, I gotta get my jacket. She's like I
got it, and she just hides it somewhere and he's like, whoa.

(47:45):
I feeling that was a she. I feel like Atticus
is a very good observer and very good it's deductive
logical reasoning. Um. And so he from like being in
this house. He still he realized that, probably by accident,
there was a rule book left in his room that

(48:06):
was about the Order of the Ancient Dawn, which is
just like a secret cabal that was founded by H. A.
Braith White. Braith White and I don't remember which, but
the great great grandfather. Yeah, he was sort of like
an alchemist, yes, um, And he sort of puts two

(48:26):
and two together. But we the reader doesn't become privy
to this yet, but he is, uh, goes down to
dinner and while they're eating, the other white old white
members of the Order of the Ancient Dawn start arriving.
And I feel like Atticus sort of begins to put
two and two together in a in a logical way

(48:47):
that he's there for a reason. His mom's ancestors that
the dad had talked about. Um, she had been a
slave that was owned by A Braith White, and he
deduces that she had been raped and impregnated and it
and ran away. And it makes sense then that he

(49:09):
would be an ancestor. And he then basically does a
a thing at dinner, Karama, do you want to take
it from from there? I actually wanted to talk about
the thing with Dell really quickly because there was a
section that I underlined, which I don't do super often. Uh.
There's a section where Dell is having a conversation with

(49:29):
the trio and they mentioned grizzly bears because like, oh,
we heard there were grizzlies out in the woods, and
Dell snorted, No, no grizzlies, just black bears, she said,
adding lightly, but the blacks are bad enough. They're smart,
not smart smart, they're beasts, but clever enough to cause mischief,

(49:50):
and they're persistent. We use dogs to drive them off,
but sometimes they won't quit, even after they've been hurt.
Those ones do end up in here after a fashion.
And that's one of those times where I was like, oh,
I don't like that. Um it felt very insidious in
the same vein as in the movie Get Out when
the dad is talking about the deer and how if

(50:12):
you don't kill the deer, they'll take over. And I
didn't feel very much like Daniel Colia's character and get
Out where I was like, uh, huh, okay, that's weird.
And then it does pay off the next page where
there that's when they're looking around and they're like, oh,
we got lost, and there's a dog that is barking

(50:33):
to keep them away, and it says the massive stopped barking,
and Atticus looked over his shoulder. Del had come back
out on the workshop porch and was standing with her
arms crossed, her lips curved in an openly contemptuous smile.
Not smart. Smart. He heard her say, we use dogs
to drive them off. Yeah, Atticus said, okay, which was

(50:54):
very relatable. I was like, yeah, okay, But it also
was very reminiscent of like civil rights protest asks where
they would use dogs and spray water hoses at people,
which is why it caught my eye at first. And
then when it paid off the next page, I was like,
oh that was fast and also pays off in in
that paragraph is like they end up in here and
it is spoiler revealed that that is they were right.

(51:16):
That is indeed where mantras is being held. Do you
want to take it from from dinner, which it's the
next major event. Yes, So they get dressed for dinner
and they wear their fancy clothes which fit them perfectly,
which doesn't happen. Like, I know my size at Target,
I buy that size, it doesn't fit. I have two

(51:38):
things from Target that are the same size that don't
fit the same. So that is the scariest part to me,
is that the clothes fit them perfectly. Uh. And they
go down to dinner. Williams like, I will escort you,
and they're like, we could have gone down the stairs ourselves,
and he's like, no, no, I will escort you. Because
there are a lot of people who have come for meeting.

(52:00):
Also felt very good out to me, all the limos
driving up, bringing all of these white people to a
fancy gathering and uh, Atticus basically clocks and he's like, oh,
you don't want us to You don't want them to
think that we're the help and be rude to us.
And Williams like, just come with me, it's fine. Uh.
And so they go to dinner, they start eating. There's

(52:21):
a young white man who comes in a little bit later.
Most of the older people have already been there, and
they were like frustrated that the trio has been seated
before them, and one even says three, why are there
three of them? Which and you're like, Oh, something's going on. Yeah,
they were expecting one of them, and that's not great either.

(52:45):
So uh, they sit down for dinner. After the first course,
Atticus says to his uncle, George and Letitia, he's like,
if you guys are hungry, you should eat right now
because I'm gonna start some ship. And he stands up
and he's like, hey, everybody, my name is Atticus Turner.

(53:06):
I am here because Mr Braith White asked me to be.
I don't know why, but I think you do. And
I have a guess. I think that I am descended
from ye old Braithwhite in the in the portrait in
the Entryway, and I read about this rule where anyone
descended from him is not just a regular son of Adam.

(53:28):
They are a son of sons. So I'm real special
and you have to listen to everything I say. And
I'm just gonna I'm just gonna test this. So why
don't you all go out on the lawn and leave
me and my friends alone? And then there's silence and
he's like, oh, ship, did I so? Am I wrong?
And you have this moment where you're like, oh, no,
they're gonna kill him. But then they all start getting

(53:49):
up and going out on the lawn, and you're like,
he was right. He is descended from you Braith White,
which his mother had pretty much hinted at and told
him not to tell his father because we know that
his father like stick in his nose places where it
maybe shouldn't be when it comes to genealogy. Um so,
and his mother had said, never trust anyone named Braithwaite.

(54:11):
So I feel like that comes back to haunt him
in this instance. And so all the white people leave
except for one, the young white guy who was late.
And he's like, actually, the rules say that the oldest
Braithwaite in the room is the one that everybody has
to listen to, and that's me. I have a year
on you. So you're like, oh, it's his cousin, okay. Cool.

(54:34):
So then we are taken down to meet uh the
braith White senior whose name is thinks Samuel Samuel Braithwaite,
and the younger one is Caleb. Yes, the younger man
is Caleb. They go down a service elevator and Caleb
is like family only, so braith Whites only. And so
we leave Letitia, and when we leave uncle George and

(54:56):
we go meet Samuel Braithwaite, who looks like I think
he said he looked like an accountant or a lawyer
or something else where boring. Yeah, not lawyers. He looked
like Alec Baldwin and uh. And then he is very
rude and brusque, and it's basically like, look, I don't

(55:18):
like this. I don't like that it's you. I don't
like that you're black. But you are the closest thing
to this dude, Yield braith White in the portrait that
we have, and we need you to perform a ceremony.
Nattics is like, oh, so, y'all doing magic, and he's like,
magic is a vulgar word, but yes, just fancy. Rich

(55:42):
people don't say fancy or magic. Reference that reverence is
lost upon the listeners because they have not yet listened
to the episode where we find out that fancy is
a vulgar word. But keep listening and you'll get it.
Um So the reverse callback, Yeah, it's called front um.

(56:05):
So we find out that the Order of Adam, the
Atomites or whatever they are called, are trying to do
some sort of the Order of the Ancient Dawn. Yes,
the Order of the Ancient Dawn. The members of whom
call themselves Adomites and anti Something's anti something. It's like
before the Fall. I think they're like anti Fells or

(56:28):
something like that. And we also learned that their Christian
mythology is different from like widely accepted Christian mythology, so
they're kind of like it felt a little bit more
mento me and that it was like, yeah, you guys
all believe in the same dude, but also that's not
what everyone else learned. Uh, So that it felt like

(56:48):
sort of I don't want to say, off brand Christianity
because they don't feel like it felt like a very
different sect at And even when they saw the stained
glass window of Adam and Eve, Uncle George said, well,
they're Baptist. My favorite was like, oh, Uncle George is real.

(57:09):
I'll say it felt a little culti. It also felt
it didn't feel culti yet, because all religions feel a
little bit culty when you break them down to breast tacks,
which is fine. We congregate as people and we have
traditions and that's totally fine. It's later when it got
culty because they were like, also, we need to sacrifice.

(57:30):
It was culti mixed with the KKK, you know, because
they called them wizards and they're in robes and they're
trying to burn a black person. Like it was very
that was um all very much in there. So, but
I guess they're kind of a cult too, but I
don't know what they believe. They did not call themselves wizards.

(57:52):
That was a word that yes, if I remember correct
that they're very like they're the type of magical they
would they're like alchemists, like it's natural. Yeah, they keep saying. Yeah,
they're like, if you do magic, you can dis wave
a wand and anything can happen, which is not true.

(58:16):
Do you read The Magicians, which is a book series
and actually really like but they're very specific and like
what magic can do because you have to like mold
elements in certain way, just like and now I'm norning out,
but I do like science fiction fantasy. The book series
Name of the Wind, if you read it, the magic

(58:40):
and Name of the Wind is like basically as boring
as science, and so it's like not any more fun
than science. It's just like it's chemistry. It's chemistry, and
it's just like different. I'm sorry to bring us back
to Harry Potter. But I've always felt that nobody who
enjoys reading the books Harry Potter would enjoy being in
that school. It's just like a really science specific school

(59:02):
that stops teaching any kind of English court after fourth grade.
The kids are all working on a very very rudimentary
level of reading, and it is why I think their
whole town only has two newspapers, and one of those
is a crazy tabloid applied science. You're right, yea, no creativity.

(59:26):
I know. I'm done for now, so I just want
to take a break for a minute, and I'm sure
you guys need one to yeah, just like a deep breath, right. Absolutely,
you're listening to Popcorn Book Club for My Heart Radio
and we'll be back right after the break. So we're

(59:51):
back with Popcorn book Club for my Heart Radio, just
to get back to the book for a second. Um.
One thing we missed that I think is important is
um Atticus is great great great grandmother who escaped, escaped
because there was a huge fire and she she ran

(01:00:15):
away during the fire, and the fire was described as
like all the colors of the rainbow, and colors we
have never seen before. And so I think I just
thought that was an important detail of like she got
out and now he's back here. And when he heard
that story, he was like, oh was George was like

(01:00:38):
was she pregnant? And apparently Atticus also asked that because
when I read it, I also asked that I was like,
she was pregnant? Which she was. We find that out.
But the point was that you should not trust anyone
named Braithwhite. That's not the point whether or not there
sent in Braithwaites. It is don't trust them. They have
weird stuff going on. Don't go there. And also Montrose

(01:01:00):
when he finally saw Atticus, there was like the one
time I didn't want you to listen to me, you
listened to me. Yeah, we have to talk about how
he finally gets to see Montros Yes, well yeah, next
is they come for attkiss. They're like, time for the
ritual that I told you about. Oh no, we skipped
the well yeah, the thing he demands demands demands. Yeah,

(01:01:23):
and they say, you know, if you stop bothering me
about seeing your father, will you just leave me alone
until the ritual? Yeah? Sure, yeah sure, uh yeah. Do
someone want to take how they get mantras? Yeah sure, yeah, yes,

(01:01:47):
no I'm ready, so they so they are. So Samuel
tells them like not to cause any trouble, and of
course they're like, okay, funk that we need to figure out,
like where's where is my dad? What is this place?
What's going on? So they actually show them where I
think I think William tells them, Yeah, Dell takes them
to where Mantros is being held and he's being held

(01:02:10):
in Dell's place. Um, there is a like kind of
bigger guard dude that's also there and a scary dog
and he's being Mantras is being held in Dell's basement
and he is chained up to the basement and he
gets there when he when Annikis gets down there, Mantros is,
as Karama said, so annoyed that he finally listened to

(01:02:31):
him and was like, this is like, truly the one
time that I didn't want you to come get me
because I knew it was going to get you into trouble.
And look you're here, You're so annoying. Why do you
want to save me? Um? And they get into it
like a big fight and almost get into another physical
fight between the two of them. Classic father dad vibes

(01:02:54):
between the two of them, but they stop and he's like, okay,
let's get let's get you out of here. So Atticus
goes up, punches out the dog then and maybe kill
the dog, like okay, with a punch, like a just

(01:03:15):
right straight in the face, kills the dog. Then also
punches out the guard, throws him down the stairs, and
then I think also punches Dell and takes her down
there as well, and gets the keys from Dell, unlocks Mantrose,
and they head back up and he is kind of like, okay, well,

(01:03:37):
we just have to wait. I know that George and
Letitia are going to show up. They just they know
that we're planning this. It's all we're this is our
great escape. They actually come back with the silver car.
The spooky so Smart comes comes to pick Atticus and
George or Atticus and Mantrose up in the silver car,
and as they are getting away, they're like, oh my gosh,

(01:03:59):
we did it. I can't leave it. We have the dad.
We're gonna be leaving this town. And then the car
stops moving at a certain point across the bridge and
Atticus gets out. They see that Caleb Samuel's son is
behind them and is walking toward them, smiley, creepy with

(01:04:19):
a gun pointed right at them. He's like totally chill,
not rushed at all. He's just like trotting up as
though he's like running in to see old friends again
with a gun in his hand. And Atticus gets out
of the car to try and like fight back with
the revolver, but his legs stop moving and Caleb breaches

(01:04:41):
him grabs the gun from him, and then Montros also
gets out of the car to try to protect his
son or fight back, and he stops moving as well,
and then Caleb shoots Mantros in the chest with the gun,
and that kind of like everyone screams. There's a lot
going on, and then it kind of just shifts back

(01:05:04):
to the manner and Montrose is in the bedroom but
he has no wound, but he tries to get up
and can't move and is an excruciating pain where the
where the shot would have been, where the bullet would
have been, um and so I think that's a good place.
So this is where we're like, oh, there is magic.
This is a lot of doing motherfucking magic. There's a

(01:05:28):
lot of magic going on, and Caleb is kind of
just like, I told you you shouldn't have tried to
do anything. The paralysis thing was very scary. I feel
like that was the scariest to meet, Like the scariest
magical part of the I don't I feel like there's
something I have. I don't have sleep paralysis, but I

(01:05:50):
have nightmares where I can't move, you know. And it's
such a It was such a visceral scene of like
Montrose being frozen and his feet were like the in
cement and he was just watching his father get presumably killed.
It was very terrifying. And the cutoff when he just goes,

(01:06:11):
I told you consequences, Yeah, But weirdly, the next day
there are not many consequences, at least in the morning.
It seems like his father has healed recklessly from the ball.
Moved that this was all some sort of magical dream.
And then but I was like, oh my god, that's

(01:06:31):
so smart. Latitia is always on the ball. She knew
to steal a car, she knew to come. They were
ready to go. Yeah, but they also had mentioned earlier
that the car was not a known model. It was
like an invented car by them, And I would not
trust any car invented by a person that is not
an established I'm taking like anything honestly at this point,

(01:07:02):
probably just Afford. But they had said that Uncle George's
car was like penned in by all those limousines and
all when they when they said, all I could think
about was, like, you know that the puzzle that like
the Brookstone store where like all the cars are in
Do you know what puzzle I'm talking about? And you you
have to try to move one car to the other side,
but there's a traffic Yes, I don't know why what

(01:07:28):
you're talking about. It's one of those like brain like
brain game things. Okay, I'm gonna send you know what
if you saw it. I love a brain game, honestly.
One thing also that might be worth mentioning is the
black Blob returns in that scene to the darkness. They

(01:07:50):
see it in the darkness, and do we pass talking
about the darkness for a minute? Um, because I found
I forget where it is in this section. But it's
explained that Adam named all the animals. Maybe it was
in the Dall scene, and that like every time he

(01:08:12):
named them, they stopped evolving. And that's what I was wondering.
What if the darkness was was like an unnamed animal
that that just continued to and became magical. That was
what I That was my theory. Well, there was a
theory that Atticus when he saw it, he was like, oh, yeah,

(01:08:33):
that Genesis to nineteen thing Adam missed one, which yes,
I think that's what at one point pointed to that.
And I think that the understanding of the Genesis to nineteen.
I think that was the first was when we were
finding out about the magic and when Atticus hears basically
what this religion slash cult believes, and he is kind

(01:08:58):
of in disbelief that he they're actually is saying these
things out loud, and they're like, this is normal. Uh,
And that was one of the things. They were like,
this is a good allegory for what we're doing here,
and He's like, really is it? Is it? Uh? So

(01:09:19):
then I feel like with with his father healed but
still uh, in pain and unable to move, and I
believe that he locks George and Leticia in the bathroom
at this point I might have my order or in
their prisoners. Now, yeah, they're in a lack of luxury,

(01:09:43):
but they cannot leave it. Uh. The ceremony. Is that
what they would call it, the ceremony happening. You want
to take you want to take this part? Some white
chalks on the round and hoods and magic, we spoiled it,
But yes, there are white chalks on the ground in

(01:10:05):
the hoods magic. So they take they take at Kiss
to a room that is clearly a room that's usually
in use. He can see scuffs on the ground that
they've moved furniture and stuff. They really should have lifted
with their knees instead of dragging it. But never mind that.
So there are markings on the ground, and there is

(01:10:26):
a door that's a free standing door that's been placed there,
which would make me very afraid. I'm like, oh, I
don't like that door. It's not going anywhere. What's coming
through it, what's going on the other side. So they
have a free standing door. The door has lettering on
it from a language that is unfamiliar to add Kiss
and uh. They then revealed that this language is the

(01:10:49):
language of Adam, and he's like, okay, weird. And then
he sees this circle that's been drawn with chalk with silver,
and it has a bunch of markings that look like
I think. He said, it looks like a pentagram that's
been affected by a magnetic field, so it's sort of
like a warped pentagram. And he says it reminds him

(01:11:10):
of circuitry and circuit designs where you need sort of
some sort of conduit. And then he realizes that he
indeed is li conduit and he says, oh, you want
me to stand there and uh and they're like, yeah, exactly,
and they hand him a book with the Language of
Adam and he looks at it. He's like, I cannot

(01:11:31):
read this, and they're like, no, you can. It's fine.
Everyone can read it. You just need to remember how
which would really peeve me if I were in his situation,
I'd be like, no, I just told you I don't
speak this language, but go off. Okay, So they stick
him in the center and then they change one of
the letters in the chalk circle because the chalk circle
also has lettering from the language of Adam. And they

(01:11:53):
change one of the letters, and then he's got that
cement foot feeling again, can't go anywhere. And then they
change another letter and he is suddenly able to see
what the language of Adam means and understand, but he
cannot open his mouth to speak. And then they change
a third letter and then he can speak, and he
suddenly starts reciting these words of Adam all of the

(01:12:17):
scary men, white men in robes, which I wonder what
that might symbolize, all of the scary white men in
robes who are going to sacrifice him to this creature
that's going to come out the other side. He's like,
what is it? And they say it's light. It's the
earliest light. And he's like, I don't necessarily need to

(01:12:37):
see that. But so he starts reading the language and
they're all huddled waiting for stuff to come through. And
as he's reading the language, he has this understanding in
this calm where he realizes, oh, okay, I am going
to be devoured by oblivion. And he has a sort
of flashback to Korea when he was in the Korean War,

(01:12:58):
and he remembers that they had some preacher, a white preacher,
I believe it was, come and speak to them because
their regular black preacher was in trouble because there had
been in an argument or a tussle or some fisticuffs
over some white people in the platoon or regiment or

(01:13:19):
whatever the military word is not wanting to share their
mess hall with the black soldiers, and uh, then all
of the black soldiers were punished because they were allegedly
the ones who started it, which was not true. And
Truman had said you need to integrate, and then they
were like no. So this white preacher comes to preach
to this black congregation and says, you know, you guys

(01:13:42):
need to not fight, because when you're in heaven, everyone's
going to be the same. There's no race, there's no gender.
You're not men or women, are black or white. And
one dude, who might be my favorite character, is like,
if I'm not going to be a man in heaven,
then what's the fucking point the difference being dead? So

(01:14:04):
he brings this up and it's ignored obviously, but in
this remembering Atticus is like, oh, this is what this is. Like,
I will just be undone. I won't be me anymore.
I won't be a man anymore. I'll be unmanned and unnamed,
I think he said. And so he's like that, I

(01:14:25):
can understand how somebody might want that, might want to
become a part of this light, but I don't want that.
So I have something literally up my sleeve. And we
find out that he got a note, an unsigned note
with breakfast that said when you can read this, do
and so it's written in the language of Adam. He

(01:14:47):
reads it. It's got three words on it, and then
he is shielded from the light and sort of just
kind of has this darkness that covers his eyes. And
as the light comes through, he can hear everyone else
screaming and many faints. Yeah, and then that and then
it was just like, well, that was a lucky break
and you we I think we find out that it

(01:15:08):
was Caleb who gave It was William who gave him
the note, but it was Caleb who wrote the note. Yes,
I mean there's more, but that's the end of the ceremony. Yeah,
and I'm saying, I'm saying, what's up your sleeve, Caleb?
What what are you doing? They called it out for
what it was. It was a coup. He wanted to
be in charge. He wanted to kill his dad. So
he's like, yeah, this is good. I don't know, but

(01:15:30):
I think I And then for the rest of the chapter,
he Caleb is and I'm putting the snare coats like nice.
So he he's gone, isn't he? Well he real quick
before we get past it, these men all turned into
fucking ash, like they are frozen. I mean, they have
the best death for these horrible people. They deserve to

(01:15:53):
die so that, but they're like all they described it
as a Pompey pomp, frozen in fear. And then he
like walks the step and they all just like disintegrate
into ash, which I thought was it a good visual?
And then afterwards they met by William who says, Mr Turner,
I'm so glad you survived your deal. In Letitia takes

(01:16:21):
sneaks all her dresses off, which she deserves. They give it.
She snuck them off earlier, and but they didn't have
the car, and so yeah, they're all packed up. Yeah, honestly,
the end of it was kind of I mean, the
end is like, Okay, they add magical immunity to their
cars so Peace won't see them driving back. Caleb makes

(01:16:44):
it magic on their car, and you're like, what's your deal, Caleb?
Eas your deal? Caleb, I don't trust That's what I'm saying.
I'm like, Okay, I see what you're doing, but like,
what are you doing? I'm not't trusting I don't trust
him either. Yeah, well, I feel like he's not a
good guy. He's he's using Atticus in a much more
fortuitous way for Atticus, but his father was also using Atticus.

(01:17:11):
He just wanted to One of them wanted to kill
Atticus for his ends and the other wanted to save
Addicus for selfish and well. And I think it's interesting
because earlier we had talked about race and these uh
scary men in robes and how they want to use
him as a sacrifice. But I think it's worth noting
that they would have rather he had been white for

(01:17:31):
the sacrifice. There, we don't want to kill you, which
is special fun racism. Yeah. So, uh, I think it's
really interesting because they had talked about him being sort
of diluted from this from Yield Braith White. That's I

(01:17:52):
cannot remember his first name, So that's his first name
now is Yield uh m hm, Well it is. It's
fectual Titus yet Tightest, Yes, Tightest, that was his name.
I'm still gonna call him Yield Birthwright. Uh. So, I
think it's interesting that even in like having this special blood,
it's sort of like a one drop type deal. One

(01:18:14):
drop rule, where one drop of black blood makes you black,
and it's like it doesn't matter what else other magical
properties your blood has, this other thing made it bad,
which I found fascinating because I'm like, you literally need him.
He is better than you in terms of your society
and your beliefs, which again felt very Mormon, because until

(01:18:36):
I think it was the late seventies, the Mormon Church
had this belief that black people had like the mark
of Cain, and we're bad and couldn't be like elders
in the church, not the actual term elder that they
use for for missions, but couldn't have like high positions
in the church. And that's like within Living Memory Dana's

(01:19:00):
little sci fi corner. I looked up a little bit
more about Edgar Ice Burrows because I thought there was
a reason that he was mentioned so many times. Ed
GARYCE Burrows obviously is the author of both the Princess
of Mars series but also the Tarzan series. What I
learned about him is he is from He is northern
liberal country racist, where like he's from California and his

(01:19:24):
family's you can trace his family back to the seventeenth
century Massachusetts colony like he fought in the Revolutionary War,
like he's Mayflower right but born and raised in from
California basically, and like I think he went to Yale
like very like white, white but Princess of Mars. As

(01:19:45):
as they mentioned, this book is about a Confederate soldier.
He's the herod you know, John Carter, which they made
the movie as a Virginian, good old boy Confederate soldier
who goes to Mars and becomes like a white savior
if you be a white savior on a planet of
like people of different literally a white savior with like
red and green people. Um. And then Tarzan if you're

(01:20:08):
only familiar with Tarzan from the movie. The villain of
Tarzan in the book is not Clayton or not uh Jaguar.
The people who killed Tarzan's parents are like a black
tribe and those are the people that that Tarzan is yikes.
So it's like those are racist works that this book

(01:20:32):
is explicitly I think calling out and trying to engage with.
And I think it's interesting. I didn't realize that Edgar
I's Burrows was the one who named Tarzana because that's
then where he lived and he was famous and wrote
Tarzan and he's like, that's what it's name. Now, that's
crazy And for listeners not in l A, that's a
it's an area in the valley Tarzana. I did not

(01:20:55):
know that. Did you know that Tarzan was super raised
Syste until I read this? So I want to talk
about names for a minute up because so the main
the trio, they all had names that stuck out to
me is like last names of famous black people. So
Attic is his last name is Turner, which obviously made

(01:21:16):
me think of Nat Turner and Turner's Rebellion. And then
um George's last name was Berry, which I was like,
is that supposed to be like Chuck Berry? Because yes.
And then um Letitia's last name is Dandridge. And I'm
not sure how familiar you are with Dorothy Dandridge, who
was the first black woman to be nominated for Best

(01:21:36):
Actress in a Leading Role, and Hallie Berry played her
in an HBO hey HBO film about Dorothy Dandridge called
Introducing Dorothy Dandridge. And then Halle Berry was the first
black woman to win Best Actress in a Leading Role
and also the most recent one that was what two

(01:21:56):
thousand three three. It was good, good, good. I think
most UH readers also will say Atticus and see that
as just like because that's so in the American lexicon,
the turner without spoiling anything that is explained. The last
names are explained a little bit more. Very very perceptive

(01:22:20):
of you, Carama, thank you. Names are speaking of names.
What do you make of Braith White? It made me
think of like a rape, like a thing like that
comes and gets people. I realized this is an auditory
medium and so you cannot see the google eyes and
hands that I'm doing, but they're great. And it made

(01:22:41):
me think of like a wraith. And also whiteness, so
like evil whiteness. Yeah, it just sounded very rich, like
inherited wealth kind of name when extremely white and New England,
like if we were hanging out with their family members now,
like that person would be wearing spears and like fo shoes,

(01:23:06):
they Harvard legacy, you know, they put a dime in
their penny loafers. Is a really good joke. I feel like, yeah,
is there any We're gonna go deeper into this book
and and do final stories, but but what are your guys?
Overall impressions about the first section, I was like, what

(01:23:27):
is going to happen from here on? Am? Because it
felt like a very completed story. Yes, I felt like
we finished the book and yet there are many more
pages to go. I had almost wished that that was it.
I kind of liked that as a complete story. And
everybody gets away in the end, well not everybody, not
Mr Samuel Braithwhite, but everyone who we like gets away

(01:23:49):
in the end, and it's Scott free and gets a
magic car, which is cool. Yeah, I mean I was
I want to know more about this monster. And I'm
also kind of curious about Uncle George his wife because
like I think, yeah, because there's like just mentioning her
being somewhere else. I was like, what's happening? I do

(01:24:12):
feel like that's the way it seems like it's going,
is that it's all these kind of interconnected story and
anthology within the same world, with this rotating group of characters,
which is very love Crafty, and because Lovecraft had like
similar monsters in his stories, but it wasn't all the
same plot and always like the same place. Like that's

(01:24:35):
very love Crafty where it's like and very like Stephen
King where it's like they will all just take place
in Maine. Everything's in the same There is a very
funny episode of Billy on the Street where Billy Eikmer
stopped somebody on the street and it's like, hey, so
we're gonna play a quick game of where does this
Stephen King story take place? And she keeps guessing places
that aren't Maine, and then he just responds, no, it's Maine. No,

(01:24:57):
it's Maine, to the point that no one's sound any more. Yeah,
So there's a lot of similar location. I like that
this location is going to be the area of Chicago hopefully,
and then maybe some adventures. But I do feel like
the back of the book feels a bit disingenuous because

(01:25:19):
I thought that this was gonna be mostly road trip.
The whole me too, because the back of the book,
if you just read the description, it's only it doesn't
mention that it's a blend of multiple stories. They really
are only like this the plot of this first story,
and you're like, at the very bottom, they do, but

(01:25:40):
nobody reads that far. It says a chimerical blend of magic, power, hope,
and freedom that stretches across time, touching diverse members of
two black families. Lovecraft Country is a devastating, kaleidoscopic portrait
of racism, the terrifying specter that still haunts us today. Yeah,
but even that, Yeah, I start a squint, like this
could have been that that portrait. Yeah, I will, I

(01:26:03):
will say I agree with Jennifer you were saying earlier
that it feels like it's going to be the show
is going to be better in a way, Like it
almost feels like a lot of books. Like I was
very impressed how Normal People was adapted, but I was like,
how is Normal People going to be adapted into a show?
It's so internal and this feels it already feels like

(01:26:23):
a show when you're reading it, and some of the action,
I feel like I had to reread and stuff because
it was just going so fast. Um, So I'm excited
for the show. Yeah, I'm excited for this show. Also
because I don't like reading about Eldritch creatures and like
the love crafty and trope of like this thing is
so horrifying. I couldn't even tell you what it looks

(01:26:43):
like if I wanted to. And it looks like an
octopus that looks like a very big green octopus and
he looks like the food from Doctor Who if there
are any doctor who beans out there, uh but green.
And I do just want to touch again on the
fact that matt Ruff is white, and I'm interested to

(01:27:04):
see how that continues to shape the narrative. Um. I
do think that it's worth talking about the own Voices movement,
which is something that was happening mostly in young adult literature,
talking about people being able to tell their own stories
and characters of color and stories of color being written
by people of color, and particularly of those colors. And

(01:27:25):
I think that kind of stemed out of things like
Eleanor in Park, which was supposed to be this great
interracial love story and then it was just so anti
It was like very orientalist in its depiction of Park,
and there was a lot left to be desired in
rabel Rolls depiction of it. I think that she's an

(01:27:47):
incredible writer, and I like a lot of her other stories,
but I do think she dropped the ball in that
particular instance. And I will can I ask you, Karama,
you know, with someone with a white author, if matt
Ruff does to explore racism and he doesn't just want
to write about white characters. True, it's but it's different.
It's different to make it the make these black people

(01:28:10):
the protagonists and tell the story about these black families.
And I do. I'm not saying that people can't write
characters of different races than them, and I don't want
anyone to think that I'm saying that. I do think
it's also important to look at the institution of publishing
and who were giving money to to tell these stories,
and until black people are getting enough and the same

(01:28:30):
or more amount of money to tell these stories about
black people, I think that that's something that we need
to question, we need to call out. And it's things
like earlier this year, which crazy that this happened this year,
because this year has been eighteen years American Dirt came
out by Janine Cummins, and that was something where people
were talking about the Own Voices movement and how she's

(01:28:53):
telling this very exploitative story of these fictional families crossing
the border and it's not her story and it's just
this imagined thing in her head. And there are plenty
of people who do have this story and they're not
getting the meetings, they're not getting the money, and it's
like she's getting millions of dollars to tell these stories.
And even with Lovecraft Country, it's being adapted and it

(01:29:16):
has this black cast and Jordan peels On as a producer,
and I think all of that's grand. It's a black
female creator to co created. So there are a lot
of black people who are getting work through this. But
at the same time, is there no one black who's
writing similar stories. I mean, Octavia Butler has so many
amazing stories and maybe her state doesn't want them adapted

(01:29:39):
or something like that. It's very maybe there are reason
like sometimes with with a whole estate, you're like, maybe
someone hasn't sold the rights because someone would have bought
one of those. I mean you would you would think
that somebody would want to adapt Kindred or something like
that right now. But I think the Octavia Butler is

(01:29:59):
just one great in this genre. But they're black people
writing sci fi and horror right now. They're black people
writing black sci fi and horror right now, So I
I just want to do I don't think that if
you want to explore racism, obviously you can't just have
white people. But I think that it is worth it
to talk about telling black stories from the black perspective

(01:30:23):
when you are not black, and black people are doing
that and they are not getting the deals that you're getting.
And absolutely and the decentralizing of black voices on black topics,
even with nonfiction. And right now everybody's talking about the
book White White Fragility by Robin D'Angelo, and uh, people
talk about things like white Privilege, Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack

(01:30:45):
by Peggy McIntosh, and Jane Elliot's work with the Blue
Eyes Brown Eyes Experiment. And I think that all of
those people are great, and there is something that has
to be learned from white people about white people and racism.
But at the same time, you have to listen to
black experts and there needs to be not a loss
of black voices. So the white perspective on this, which

(01:31:08):
is necessary and important, and white people do have the
job of teaching other white people about racism, can't be
at the expense of black voices in that same field.
I think there's a balance, right because you know, with
a book like White Fragility, I do think it's and
I'm speaking as a white person, so I might put
my foot in my mouth, but I think it's uh

(01:31:31):
a positive step for white people not to ignore racism
and to be like, yeah, I'm white, and I'm gonna
do the labor of teaching my fellow white people how
to be less terrible. I think the burden. I think
it's a complicated issue, and I want to get it right.
I think the challenge for some white authors is they
don't want to just right white characters because they're like,

(01:31:52):
that's not how the world works. They don't want to
just write worlds where the white character is the protagonist
and the people of color are just like on the
side to serve the white protagonist, because that's just not great.
And so I think there's the challenge of saying, Okay,
how do I write a book that reflects how the

(01:32:12):
world looks as a white person in a way that
isn't isn't um taking over for for black people writing
their own stories? And I I I think that hopefully
Lovecraft Country seems like a I hope that Harper Perennial
publishes a diverse roster of artist and at least I'm

(01:32:33):
heartened that the adaptation is all black voices coming from
But I don't know if there is a if there
is a real answer, because you know, I wouldn't want
this book reckoning with with the racism of Lovecraft to
be with a white protagonist. Oh, I think it would
be impossible. They would be not a good book. It

(01:32:55):
was a green Book. Yeah, I mean Green Book is
kind of a perfect inversion of this book, whereby to
make it more accessible to a white audience, and having
been I assume written by a white person, because I
do not think any black I'm going to go with

(01:33:18):
my gut and say I'm pretty sure a white person
wrote Green Book. Um, you have this story that very
carefully centers a white character because that is the experience
they can relate to. And maybe Vigo Morden student's time
playing dice with the some of the waiters outside the
hotel is actually a more important story to tell than

(01:33:41):
this fascinating concert pianist who has this really reach an
amazing history as a homosexual black man that it kind
of gets relegated to secondary character status. And he's real,
that's the that's the Worst's a real person. He's a
real person. And it's just about big A Horton string
being like maybe I don't hate black people now maybe

(01:34:04):
I'm like okay with them and uh, and that is
what the entire movie if That is about. And it
was very frustrating for me because this real black pianist
who existed seemed like a much more interesting person and
it would make for a much more interesting movie if

(01:34:24):
they had spent more time talking about human his experiences.
I think that there is a space for love Craft Country.
I think that we need to challenge the space, the
the breadth of that space. While there are still black
authors telling black stories that don't have the same amount
of that don't have the same level of voice in

(01:34:45):
the industry. There's also something of the two things that
you brought up Karama of this book and then especially
American Dirt, there is something that is unsavory and like
systemic that these are white authors that are profiting off
of trauma, specifically like the trauma of black folks, the

(01:35:06):
trauma of Latin X communities. Like that feels that is
just like it's yu close, it's gross. Yeah, and centralizing
black joy I think has also been a conversation that
people are having now because we're talking about black people
and making sure that we amplify black voices, but we

(01:35:27):
also want to amplify black voices in situations of joy.
And there's this book that's about like black men knitting
that I think is super cool. I think it's called
Black Men Who Knit or something. Look. Yeah, yeah, it's
a it's a very complicated issue. Thank you very much
for sharing your thoughts, and I'm really glad that you

(01:35:48):
know we're having it reading this book. I think that's
important to remember. My understanding also of American Dirt is
that and based on excerpts I read, is that it
was garbage also an incredibly racist and bad I think
that mett Rough does a better job, I hope, than
the author, but it's still part of the same conversation. Yeah,

(01:36:11):
I will say, I don't know much about the publishing world,
but I do know more about the movie and TV world,
and it does make me relieved that this story is
being adapted by black creators, you know, and that doesn't
always happen, Like I know, it's it changes. It's changing

(01:36:33):
because people call that ship out now on social media,
and that's the only reason why it's changing. But you know,
like very female centric stories, men constantly right and very
you know, uh, and white white men just get to
get to tell all the stories and that's like still
the problem an entertainment industry, I think. I think because

(01:36:55):
it's much more public facing, it's it's changing a little
quicker probably than publishing because you actually see the faces
of these people, their celebrities. Um. So I hope that
publishing catch us up with that. Yeah, I think publishing
is such an insular Uh boys club is the wrong word.

(01:37:16):
But like Gate cap elite at Gate kept community that
needs to change in terms of diversity a ton. I mean,
it needs to change in a lot of ways. I
think also like the internship structure makes it very elitist,
you know, the way people have come to come into
that world. Uh. Yeah, there's a lot of a lot

(01:37:36):
of factors. I think there's it's not just one solution.
There's a lot of problems that need a lot of addressing.
So the book is called Real Men Nit by Kwanta Jackson,
and it's Penguin Random House, so major publisher. You guys
should check it out. I would love to be probably
from a black On bookstore. Well, I think that's that's

(01:37:57):
it for maybe the first section of Loft Half Country.
You guys ready to read more interconnected stories? Yes? Yes, yes,
I also want to go back and read Lovecraft, which
I have not read since high school. It was one
thing that I'm thinking about. Well, I was reading this.
I'm going to say this about Lovecraft. I think the
pros is bad veradful prose. It's really overwrought prose. I

(01:38:21):
remember in high school feeling like like this is how
good writing is, like weird poetry you don't understand. In
high school, I thought justin Timberlake was going to be
the love of my life. So we've all made mistakes
in high This is a true story. I fell in
love in college because someone brought me down to the
basement of our co ed literary fraternity and turned off

(01:38:42):
the lights and read aloud an HP Lovecraft story to me.
You have to tell me. There was so much know
who it is, there was so much to story. It
was also so I can read. Yeah, I'm sorry, but
that's the straightest thing I've ever That's our show for

(01:39:05):
the week. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Danis
Schwartz and you can find me on Twitter at Danish
Schwartz with three z s. You can follow Jennifer Wright
at jen Ashley Wright Drama, donqua Is at Karama drama.
Melissa Hunter is at Melissa f t W and Tan
Tran is smart enough to have gotten off Twitter, but
she is on Insta at Hank Tina. Our executive producer

(01:39:27):
is Christopher Hesiodes were produced and edited by Mike Johns.
Next week, will there be more embarrassing stories about college?
Who's to say, probably, but there will be Part two
of our discussion of Lovecraft. Country Popcorn book Club is
a production of I Heart Radio

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