Lovecraft Country (Part 2)

This is a show about books and adaptations and one subject we’ve returned to a couple of times is who gets to tell stories. Today we’re continuing our discussion of Lovecraft Country by Matt Ruff. Now, Matt is white, and the adaptation now on HBO counts Misha Green and Jordan Peele among its executive producers. And that is significant because not only are these black creators taking control of a black story, but also Jordan Peele helped to give us the language to be able to talk about this. I mean, Get Out is iconic for a reason.

This is part two of our discussion, jump back an episode if you want to start at the beginning.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
So this is a podcast about books and adaptations, and
one subject we've returned to a couple of times is
who gets to tell stories. This is Popcorn Book Club,
and today we're continuing our discussion of Lovecraft Country by
Matt Rough. Now Matt is white, and the adaptation, now
on HBO, counts me Sha Green and Jordan Peel among
its executive producers. And that is significant because not only

(00:26):
are these black creators taking control of a black story,
but also Jordan Peel helped to give us the language
to be able to talk about that I will help
you and also hurt you in ways that I still
have control. He would have voted for Obama a third
term if I mean get out is iconic for a reason.
This is part two of our discussion. So jump back

(00:48):
an episode if you want to start at the beginning.
Let's go. Welcome to the Popcorn Book Club. I'm Danis
Schwartz and I'm joined as always by co host Jennifer Wright,
Tan Train, Karamadanqua and Melissa Hunter. How's everyone doing great?
You know, Jennifer's back in in Brooklyn. It looks like
Melissa's in in the Pacific Northwest. We're podcasting from every

(01:11):
corner of this great nation. Very exciting, and it's very
thematic because Lovecraft Country is about the monsters hidden in
America and that is a B minus transition. If we
can we talk about the cover for a second, because

(01:31):
after we stopped recording for a last session, h Dana
said to Melissa, Wow, good point about the KKK. I
never would have thought about that. And I was like, Dana,
there are Clansman on the cover of the book. They
looked like tentacles. That's those two things combined. Who did

(01:53):
the cover? Cover design and illustrations by Gerard Taylor? It's
the job, you know, a karama. We're probably shaming someone
didn't finish the okay job. I was promised that Jennifer
would cover for me. I feel like, you know what,

(02:15):
Dana is a liar. I was, and it was I'm
actually wrote this round. I was going to sell you
out anyway, wait until the end and really just like
get you. But Dana just couldn't wait. Okay. Apparently nobody
internalized the messages about loyalty in this book. You know,

(02:35):
if you actually read the back of this edition, if
anyone has this, like I Lovecraft soon to be An
HBO series edition has an interview with Matt Ruff where
he said like he saw this as like the Scooby Gang,
where he's like he thought of it as a series
where like this group of characters then just like encounter
various challenges and monsters and creatures. And I was like, Oh,

(02:55):
that's a fun way to approach a book. It doesn't
thing that they talked about comic books a lot during this,
because I could very easily imagine this is absolutely but
it's just filled with such amazing visuals and adventure and
action that it would translate very easily into a visual Yeah,

(03:15):
especially at the end. I feel Karama wouldn't know, but
at the very end when they all come together to
like take everyone down, that part felt so Scooby Doo,
especially because it's like old white guys in a scary place,
like being like I could have gotten away with it
if it wasn't for you kids, you know. I also,

(03:38):
and again, Karama, not to put you on the spot,
but I do want to talk about one moment of
the ending that I thought was really powerful was where
they they spoiler alert this. We're talking about the end
of the book where they get the victory, and they
they figure out how to use the magic against what

(03:59):
against Caleb. Caleb Braithwaite, the younger one I mixed up
because of the show. And then they're they're in this
position of power over Caleb where they're like, and these
are the rules that we will set out for you too, okay,
And he's like, you can't do this to me. I
need to have the control and they're like, no, well,
this is being black in America means you follow these rules.
We know. I read this part okay, chapter. There was

(04:23):
a moment while I was reading it, well now knowing
that sorry Karl, but that you didn't finish it, I
was like, she, then you only got a version of
the book where like this magical white dude continues to
like save the day and also like doesn't give these
black folks any agency in controlling the magic that they get. Like,
so I was reading it and I was like, this

(04:45):
is so upsetting, and then the end was satisfying. So
I'm sorry for you that you did not get that satisfying.
I'm gonna finish itsh it that we actually my favorite
line in the whole book was when they're sitting around
together trying to figure out what to do, and somebody says,

(05:06):
Callen Braithwaite is nice enough for a white man, but
he is evil. Yeah. Yeah, it's very very true. He
is some kind of monstrous sorcerer. Yeah, he's nice enough,
but he is the bad guy. And I love that
the book realized that he needed to be taken down
on his own terms. But it reminded me. Have you

(05:29):
guys seen Knives Out? Yes, of course, there's there's that
part and Knives Out where she gets all the money,
which is great, and then the daughter is calling and
she's like, but we'll we'll give you, will pay for
whatever you need if you just give us the money back.
Don't worry, we'll take care of you. And then the
nurses like Martha's like, no, I'll take care of your education. Yeah,

(05:51):
I'll do it. It's the switching of power where it's
like white people want to just like dote on and
take care of and provide for people of color as
long as they have the power. And then that switching
of power is really viscerally upsetting to the way and
I find very sad in this. In this book, it
is like Caleb braith White does represent he is evil, right,

(06:15):
but he also is this like helpful man that's like,
I'm going to protect all you, all you black people
that I look at all these things I'm gonna do
for all of you, like gives one of them a job,
gives one of them a house, you know, like and
but he is evil and it's all a control. You know,
it's all about control, and he's going to take over

(06:36):
the world. Like it is nice, but I'm not going
to your family, but God knows what he's going to
do to everybody else. And and even like if he's
not actively as racist as the active violent racist in
the book of like the sheriff, like the people who
are like violently racist, he's still racist in he needs

(07:00):
to be the one to control this family that he's like, no, no,
I will I will protect you, And he wants to
have the power to protect or not to protect them
as he sees fit. I mean, he killed his father
in the first chapter, so I feel like there's no
disputing that he is an evil and I don't trust
him to be like, oh, I'll take care of your family,
and like you couldn't even take care of your own, well, Karama,

(07:21):
he took care of his family. He did take care
of his family is like democratic, democratic establishment, but he's like, yes,
I will help you and also hurt you in ways
that I still have control. He would have voted for
Obama a third term, as he would have and he

(07:44):
would have felt good about it. Okay, So there are
a number of stories in here that I did read.
So let's redeem myself. Karma, did you have a favorite
story that you want to start with. I feel like
we don't have to go in order, because there we
all go around and say what our favorite story it was? Yes,
Oh yeah, okay, Karma. First, I liked the one with

(08:05):
Ruby a lot, which you guys told me not to
read before bed, but I did, and I was I said,
the one not to read before bed or the Demon
Devil Dog. Oh, that's the one you said not to
read before but okay that was scary. Yes, yeah, that
was very scary. The Ruby was great favorite. That was
my favorite as well, and it's a close second one Politics, Yes,

(08:27):
I was. I was gonna say. I think my favorite
was Hippolitis because it was such like a big sci
fi concept and then it was such a weird human story.
It felt like a Doctor Who happened. Yes, it did
feel very much like a Doctor Who episode, where it's
like this weird thing and you go to this place
and you get a story from a person, and the
person might be good, it might be bad, but you
know what I mean that it has that that weight

(08:48):
to it. But Karma, do you want to start with
Ruby story? Sure? Uh? So. Ruby is mentioned very briefly
in the first chapter, in the very first story where
we go to Artum, but she is Letitia's sister. I
believe she's her older sister Um. So she is one
of the three siblings that we've been introduced to in

(09:08):
the Danderdge family. There's Marvin who lives elsewhere, there's Ruby,
and then there's Letitia. So Ruby was working as sort
of a cater waiter and she went to a gig
and she was she was asked to go upstairs to
clean up some vomit from a toilet, and I love
the line where she's like, well, cleaning up vomit isn't

(09:31):
in my job description, but neither is saying no to
the host. So it's like, looks like I'm stuck. So
she goes upstairs. She sees her supervisor who is a
white lady, and she is like, what are you doing
up here? And she's like, I'm cleaning up vomit and
like holds up her bucket and her rag like she
clearly is there clean up vomit and Catherine and her
supervisor is like, well, get to it. And then on

(09:53):
Christmas Day, she is then asked to come down to
the police station because some earrings have gone missing from
the house of the people who hosted the party, and
they hold her and she doesn't call anybody for help
because she's embarrassed and she doesn't want people to know
that she's been taken into custody, and they eventually let
her go and they're like, don't disappear though, so she's

(10:15):
not charged because they can't prove anything. And she doesn't
throw Katherine the white lady under the bus because what's
that going to help, really, But she then goes to
try and get her money from the catering company and
then Katherine's brother Leo is like, no, you can't have
your money, and she's like, look, you know your sister
did it. I know your sister did it. I didn't
tell anybody. All I want is what's owed to me.

(10:36):
So then he gives her some money from his wallet's missing,
like twelve dollars, which is a lot of money. Then
still a lot of money. Now I love twelve dollars.
Somebody give me twell pars and it's not nothing, but
she deserves what she earned. Uh, So she asked for
the twelve dollars and he was like, no, get out
of here. So she goes. She leaves. She starts looking
for other work. She tries to get work in a hotel,

(10:59):
but they're like, because we have had a rash of thefts,
we need to get we need to check with the
police before we hire anybody. We need to run your
name by the police. She's like, well, fuck, because she
didn't steal anything, but the police thing she did. And uh.
Then she ends up going to a party at Letitia's house,

(11:19):
which we'll talk about later. She's supposed to go to
a party Letitia's house, so she's down the street, she
has her invitation, and she's kind of trying to muster
up the courage to go to this party, which she
does not want to go to, and she meets this
nice white man who may or may not be evil
at at a bar, and he's like, hey, you going
to the party and she's like, I don't know, maybe,

(11:40):
and then he kind of starts supporting with her, and
he's like, well, why don't we go to this other bar?
And it's on the north side of Chicago, which is
white Land, and she's like, should I go to this
white part of town with this white man? I probably shouldn't,
but fuck it, let's do it. Let's live a little.
I lost my job, I'm upset, whatever, and so she

(12:01):
goes out with him. They dance, they drink. He asks
her so many questions about herself, and she's like, usually
i'd be suspect about somebody who wants to know this
much about me but hasn't told me anything about him,
But okay, I'll go with it. It's fine. They kiss,
they're having a grand old time. Then they go to
his car. At this point, we know he's Caleb Braithwhite,

(12:22):
so somebody that we've already been introduced, and we're like, oh,
he's a no good nick. Don't don't go with him.
But she doesn't know that, and she can't hear me
shouting at the pages don't do it. So she goes
with him to his car and there are some white people,
some white men, standing by his car and they're like,
is this your car? And he's like yeah, and they

(12:43):
threatened him with a knife or note with a gun. Uh,
And they're like, give us your wallet, give us your keys.
We won't ask twice, and Caleb's like, you won't ask twice,
and then they are taken over by the same force
that took over Montrose and George and Letitia and att
Kiss in the first chapter, where they can't move and
the guy with the gun is like, please let me go,

(13:04):
as if the other person, as if Caleb was the
one with the gun, and we get to see Caleb's
power of natural philosophy at work, natural philosophy which is
just magic, and he like flings the guy across the street.
There's another guy and he like basically sucker punches him
in the gut and Rubies like what just happened, and

(13:26):
he offers to talk to her about a job. He's like, yeah,
so that was crazy, right, but and she's like, I
mean I need a job, but also I should leave
because that was crazy. And he's like, you can leave
whenever you want, you can say no whenever you watch
just come with me to this house that I have

(13:47):
and nope, nope, Yeah, we learned that from Laney no
bitten Binder, the guy who was like street smarts, but
John then in Chicago, she should have known. She should
have known street smarts in the fifties before mid Binder
was a police officer. So anyway, she goes to a

(14:11):
secondary location, which we all know you should not do,
and she even knows she should not do, but there's
something happening that she's like, I'm very attracted and fascinated
by this man. And then uh, she wakes up the
next morning in sheets that she's like, is there blood
on these sheets? They're satin sheets, and she's a little

(14:33):
freaked out. She's like, wait, something's red blood. And then
she goes to the bathroom and sees a white woman
and screams. But it turns out that she sees a
mirror and she has woken up white with red hair.
Does anybody else want to take it from there? I
know there are other people who love this story, so
it um so yeah, she's white with red hair, and

(14:56):
at first she's afraid, you know, at this woman in
the mirror, and then she realizes that it is in
fact her and she uh, she says this thing of
like her mom always taught her that like either you
you're gonna like in these moments, either lose your mind
or just deal. And so she decides to just deal.

(15:16):
And so she which I loved that as like a
character and you know, a detail. And she opens the
dresser and of course there's like a beautiful green dress
that fits her perfectly because Caleb Birthwhite loves that gimmick,
and uh, it is great. It's a dream and shoes.

(15:38):
If target can't get my measurements right, I don't trust
the man that I've met last night. That's why I
don't trust him, and she puts them on. She like
cautiously goes outside. There's a cab there that's dropping off.
Somebody's like, I'm going to try to get this cab
and he's like miss and it's like, oh, I'm being

(16:00):
treated very differently because I am a white lady. And
she's like, I want to go to this area. Is
like are you sure? Because you know, for a white lady,
that's a bad area of town. So she's like, just
take me, just take me downtown because she's trying to
get away from Caleb, she's still freaked out, right, and
so she goes downtown and she like just kind of

(16:21):
gets out of the cab and wanders around and she
gets and she gets into a department store and she
notices people are treating her differently, looking at her differently
because of being this white woman. And not only they
know that she's like an attractive white woman, right, she
has like strong cheekbones and like an assertive kind of

(16:42):
look about her that people should listen to her, and
like long red hair even now I feel like it's
just like a uh. And so as she's walking around,
someone bumps into her and then bumps into I think
a black child and her mother, and it's very rude.

(17:04):
And she realizes it's that fucking woman what's her name again, Yeatherine,
who really stole the pearl earrings. And she's like, uh
this and she's like being rude to this mother and child,
and she's like, oh, here's a great chance for me.
And so she pulls a great move and she like
grabs a scarf or she always also she names the

(17:26):
white woman Hillary because she decides that's my favorite, you know,
that's what this woman should be. What should be this
kind of Hillary and so, and she always talks about
like Hillary is going to do this, not her because
of sir, Sir Hillary climbed. Yeah, I know how to

(17:47):
say work. I also find that so perfect and fitting
because it's always very funny to me that it's always
the white man who climb on everest, even though he
always has a native And that's it. Yeah, and that's
what Ruby said she would want to do. That was
one of the details she told Caleb be a shirt

(18:07):
but and um and so she so Hillary uh takes
a scarf from one of the departments and bumps into
Catherine again and stuffs the scarf in her pocket with
the tag visible. And it's like, oh, excuse me, and
get out of my way and um, and so she leaves.

(18:28):
And then Hillary goes over to a police officer and
is like, I'm sorry, Mr police officer. UM, this woman
I just saw I were I work in the store
and this woman I saw her shoplift a scarf and
also you should ask about her earrings. And the cop
is like annoyed and doesn't want to, but because she's
white and not black, she he had he he does it.

(18:51):
And so he goes over and like, not only did that?
She gets crazy, like he grabs a scarf and she
gets upset, and then he asked about the ear rings,
and then she gets really flustered and then all of
a sudden, like cops are like jumping on her and
it's wild, and she feels a little guilty and it's
like this isn't something I would do, but you know what, Hillary, um,

(19:15):
you know what. Then she goes to like she she
was a little bit upset and feels a little guilty.
She's walking away and a cop is like, are you okay? Miss?
Did those black kids do something? It's like these random
black teenagers, like you want me to funk them up
for you? And she realizes like if she she says no,

(19:36):
but clearly he's wants to beat up black kids. So
she's like, why don't you take me to lunch? Hillary
says that and he's like okay, and then this cop
is just enamored with Hillary and buys lunch and it's
like you stay, I gotta go back to work. You
have dessert, and she's like I'm going to uh and
then she uh just is like very drunk on this

(20:00):
white woman power and she goes. She's always she's talking about,
like wanting to be a flight attendant. I forgot Someone
mentions it puts it in her brain. She gets her
hair cot oh yes, oh my god, and it's really
really quick and air heart yes. And when she says
she wants to travel, they're like, oh, my sister, UH

(20:23):
is a travel is a flight attendant. She's not pretty
enough to go international, but maybe you could. And so
she's like, maybe I will. And she goes across the street.
There's this travel agency called Lightbridge, and she like walks
right in and it's like, I want to talk to Uh.
I want to go to this office. Like, oh, might
be closed, but go on ahead, the security guard says.

(20:44):
And she goes up there and is about to walk
in when all of a sudden, blood starts coming out
of her fingernails and she doesn't know what's happening. She panics.
She races back into the elevator and she starts ripping
out of her clothes and she's and she's changed back
into Ruby because Hillary is very slender, and Ruby it's

(21:05):
a few sizes bigger, it seems to be. And so
like she breaks up the shoes. She rips her dress,
she grabs the one thing that's hers, her coat, which
didn't look fancy enough for Hillary, and she puts it on,
races out of there with the security guard going after
her um and gets back to the townhouse. Someone want
to take it from here? Yeah, And then she kind

(21:28):
of I think. She ends up back at her home
and a few days pass and she's kind of like,
I can't believe that just happened. Like what do I do?
Should I reach back out to him and not, you know,
common sense would say no, don't go back to that dude.
But it's toxicating. It's intoxicating, and she's like, you know what,

(21:51):
I remember the address. It just like pops into her brain,
she tells. She gets into a cab, goes up to
the town house. She remarks that, like the town home
is the town how is like not that castoly as
she had thought it was. It's just like, you know,
a townhouse on the north side. And she goes in
and Caleb is there and it's like, oh, you're back.

(22:11):
Sorry about that. I figured out the potion. You won't
like bleed like crazy anymore. It'll be closer to the
poly juice potion from Harry Potter, he says specifically, he
says exactly those words. He's like, are you familiar with
poly juice? It'll be more it's gonna it'll be more uncomfortable,

(22:34):
not so much blood. Um. And he kind of tells
her more about what happened. He essentially is like, hey,
do you remember what happened? You got so drunk almost
blackout that I gave you this secret potion and I
thought you would get freaked out that maybe He's like
that maybe it would have a bad reaction. You actually

(22:54):
had a panic attack and started ripping off your clothes.
And she immediately is like, did you take advantage of
being He's like, no, no, no, I just pat you
in your bed. I know, I just transformed your Yeah, right,
I took control of your body in another way by
changing it into a white woman. Um. And so he

(23:17):
offers her this like he keeps kind of needling into
the fact that she feels like she doesn't get what
she wants and that she's always second place to her sister,
and is digging into this insecurity that she has that
she's chosen or makes life choices that you know, have
her coming up short. And he's like don't you want

(23:38):
to have everything that you ever want. I can help
you get that. All you have to do is work
for me, you know, for six months to a year
l O L, which is like such a loose plan
for someone to be transforming their body all the time.
But he's like, if you agree to do this, I
will give you this town house and I will also
give you an unlimited supply of this potion that will

(24:01):
allow you to live as who like this? Hillary? He
doesn't say Hillary because I don't think. She tells him
that no, but that you can live however you want,
use the potion however you want, and against better judgment,
she says yes, and the first thing that she asked.

(24:23):
The first thing that he asks of her is to
one hang out at Latitia's house and see if her
sister says anything about Winthrop and find out if there's
any people coming to the house and checking it, checking
up on what's going there. Just find out what's going on.
And the second thing that he asks her to do
is go to this party where it is a big

(24:47):
kind of like conference of all the philosophers from across
the country. You have some from Denver, you have some
from Los Angeles, it's all very fancy, it's all very
like sounding like gruff older dudes who are talking very
condescendingly and patronizingly to each other about magic. Magic. Essentially,

(25:09):
we should just say magic, right, And she has told
to just go in there and let those dudes flirt
with you if they want. It's harmless. Just listen to them.
Just try to gather as much intel as you can.
And she's walking around the party and then uh, Lancaster

(25:29):
is a new character that we meet. He's like the
head of the Chicago Lodge. I think we met him
briefly in the story about Abdullah's book, right, But he's
just I like that, Like he's just a little side
character in that, Like we just see him menacing sort of,
and you're what about this guy? And this is where
you're like, oh, now he's a character. I get it.

(25:50):
So now he's that's right, thank you. So now he's
a character. And he gets the attention of the entire
Magic conference Magic Con, and he says to them, Okay, everyone,
I know we've had bad histories. We've like we have
been factions that have been in disagreements with each other,
at war with each other, but I have someone here

(26:12):
who I think can bring us all together to take
over the world. And he might be young, but I
like the way he thinks, and when he speaks he's
speaking for me as well. And of course it's Caleb
who does a hilarious power move and isn't in the
chair when he when Lancaster originally introduces him. It's such

(26:36):
a little and I love him not being in the chair.
Reminded me of the r n C. And like, God,
yes Eastwood, when Clint Eastwood was like talking to an

(26:57):
empty chair, and it was the most same thing I
think I had ever seen up to that point. Wow.
I do like this depiction of like the most quote
unquote like powerful cabal of white men in the world
who are just like petty high schoolers, like yeah, being
the little ships and trying to be annoying and like

(27:17):
one up each other. But bring us home to him. Okay, okay,
So Caleb is like, I have this idea. It can
bring us all together. As long as you trust me.
You just have to follow the directions. We'll figure it out.
We'll meet in a couple of months or so, and
you'll get the full plan or sense really um and
then I think that night. I think they sleep together, right,

(27:39):
isn't that when they sleep together? They definitely they definitely
sleep together, and she sees as he's like the next morning,
is he's shaving that there's like a red mark on
his chest um which is important for later and then
she finds out that he has a Yes, yes, you

(28:00):
know glass right it was from the beginning. It's Dell
and he she is in a coma and he is
harvesting her blood and keeping her alive and has put
some sort of magic where like whatever Ruby does as

(28:20):
Hillary del also dreams it, which is so fucked up,
and she kind of he kind of manipulates Ruby and
is like, you should do this. You should agree to this,
because she doesn't get to live if you don't get
to say yes to this and take all these potions.
It's so so responds, Yeah, this is Popcorn book Club.

(28:50):
We'll be right back after this quick break. Okay, we're
back with Popcorn Book Club. I do. I think the
story is really smart and how things come together, because
these are interconnected stories that don't uh plot wise tie

(29:12):
into each other, but like their elements, like the book
that they stole. In the second story, or third story
is like what Caleb uses to over the people and
that mark of Caine he has comes back and Dell
of course just abroad now for a second. I like,
I love this the way the storytelling in this book
and the way these chapters are complete stories with with

(29:36):
a different character being a hero. And when we were
I think last time we read the first chapter, which
was so long, I think we're all like, Okay, these
are all kind of guessing, like these are all going
to be like anthology episodes, but like different you know,
different timelines or whatever. And I thought it was just
a really brilliant way to tell a story that you

(29:56):
are so invested by the end in all of these
characters and their journeys and how they do all pay
off in these small ways. I was just really impressed
with how it all uh sewed up. It was like
a braid. Yeah, that's a nice way to describe that. Yeah.
And I liked also that the sort of the theme

(30:17):
of people underestimated people fit people in the ass. Like
I like that Caleb his whole plan hinged on Lancaster
underestimating him, and the whole time he didn't realize he
was giving all of these people the keys to his
own downfall, because he was just like, well, they're just
these black people that I'm doing favors for, so why

(30:38):
would they ever? And then he just fully underestimates them,
but he also knows each of their strengths because he
makes Letitia guard the house and like and uh like
tame the ghost of of here Um Winthrop and then
has George and Montrose get that book through that like

(30:59):
weird puzzle, creepy sad house and so or no the
first one, the book of the Museum book, Yes, the
Ocean's eleven. Yeah, it's like he was actually couldn't accomplish
any of that, where he was afraid or like just
wasn't smart enough or strong enough. I thought that was

(31:21):
so interesting. It's white people capitalizing on black labor in
the same way that slavery was that So one of
those things that I found especially interesting in somewhat disturbing
about Ruby's story is that, well, he seems to have
this convivial relationship with all the members of this family.
Ruby is the only when he sleeps with and he
immediately turns her into a white woman. Um, and we've

(31:45):
kind of seen what happens with interracial relationships. In I
think the next chapter when they go to the Narrow
House and they see the ghosts of an interracial couple
that are murdered by an angry mob. I loved I'm
a transitions. That one was one of my favorite stories
because I do want to say, really quickly about sleeping
with Ruby, she transformed middle of them, yeah, which I

(32:10):
thought was crazy. He's going to stop, going to stop, yeah, stop,
I guess is equality? Yeah. He shocked me at the
end of this book. Um, apologies for spoilers for many
people who haven't read, but it shocked me that she

(32:35):
Ruby wants to keep being Hillary. That she ends by
going to the talent agency or the employment agency as
Hillary and introducing herself as Hillary Hyde, and she wants
to talk about what she's going to do for the
rest of her life. And yet you. I do like
that we have so many different characters who have different

(32:55):
approaches to what it means to be black in nineteen
fifties a mayor, and I like there's different ways people
react to it, and a human reaction sometimes is to
try to acclimate as much as possible. That's just like
away some people. I like that I guess what I'm
saying is I like that At the end, they did
present a varied response to this, and it was interesting

(33:20):
that she Ruby was the only one who didn't tell
her full story. When they're all coming together and saying
what happened to them, he makes a point of saying, like,
Ruby didn't say talk about the kissing, or didn't talk
about Hillary. And then when she goes as Hillary in
the final chapter to help them, she doesn't reveal, even

(33:40):
to Hippolita who she really is. So it is that
sense of like she knows what she's doing is bad
or is not. It doesn't it's not, but it's still
what she what she needs to do for herself. Yeah,
I mean it if for your her dream in fifties

(34:03):
is to become a flight attendant or and explorer, Like
she makes that weird sacrifice in no way that deal
with the devil literally, And I think that he frames
it really well. He's giving her options, and that's the
thing about white privilege, it's having options. And that's I
don't think that. I think that if she lived, I

(34:24):
don't want to say lived today because it's not like
there's no racism today. It's a magical, happy wonderland. Like
we all know that that's not true. But if she
lived today, she would have more options. And if she
lived in another time, not nineteen fifties segregated United States,
then she would have more options, and maybe she wouldn't
have made that same choice. Yeah. But one of my

(34:45):
favorite stories transitioning is the Narrow House story, which is
Montrose an Atticus, which is a combination we hadn't seen before.
Um and that the broad to refresh your memory. The
broad version of this story is they're going down to
get some handwritten that they think Winthrop's son when he
ran away with a black woman stole with him as

(35:05):
revenge against his father, and they came down to this
town and they have to track them down and get
the notes from him. That's their mission, that that Caleb
sent them on. UM. But what we discover through the
course of this story that I'm very very broadly summarizing,
is that this family died in a violent attack an
Art and Arson and Arson is it and Arson, well,

(35:29):
it wasn't, because they shot them and shot him in
the head down and then and then burnt the house down.
So they've been murdered, this family and the beautiful and
their child. But what we discover through the course of
this story is that through the magic that he learned
from these notes, he preserves them in the day that

(35:49):
they got shot, Like he's able to like hold time
back that day to have like one one day with
his family, which is like, I'm getting chills. It's like
something sad and magic. There was a really funny line
in there where um, he's like, oh, whatever happened to
so and so? We don't get much much new and

(36:11):
he like he can't taste food, but he really wants
like stories with a lot of emotion. Yeah, like emotional
vampire the Gossip Girls. Yeah, and there's no emotional vampare.
I thought it was interesting that this is the first
time that we really see Montrose alone in the in

(36:31):
the latter half of that story where he is interacting
with the Mr. Narrow Slash formerly known as h Mr Winthrop,
and his story that he shares with him is like
absolutely devastating. Oh yeah, it's yeah. It's about the Tulson
mass at his father in his arm, the opposite of

(36:55):
his arm while he was literally carrying Montrose getting shot.
I thought that story it was interesting because I didn't
see like it felt exploitative on the on like Henry's
part to get him to tell that story. And then
there was like a weird thing right after where Montrose's
dad was there and it seemed like telling the story

(37:17):
trapped in in the house too or something. It wasn't
very clear what exactly was the magic there. I didn't
maybe I wasn't clear. I didn't read it as it
was that like the spirit is now trapped. I just
thought like some of the weird projection ghost magic made
him see it, because that's what I thought, whatever weird rules,

(37:38):
and I just sort of read that. Henry's like like
white guilt, give me stories of black tragedy, gossip. It
was unsettling, and I hope supposed to be unsettling because
there was the moment where he was like I'm sorry,
I didn't know, and I'm like, what is this? What's happening?
Why is Henry apologizing? To whom is he apologizing? What's

(37:59):
go going on? Yeah, So that's what made me think
that the dad was trapped there. Oh, that should have
gotten If that was the case, I feel like it
would have gotten resolution because there's everything else gets resolution
and not to be a contrarian. But I think this
was my least favorite chapter. Sorry, don't I just I

(38:20):
just like a little track and it's very sad, But
it just felt confusing and unsettling, and I feel like
I wasn't sure what I was supposed to feel out
of it. And I feel like he was so good
in the other chapters with like it's really centering it
on our heroes a and their experience, and I loved

(38:41):
hearing the story about his father. That was my favorite part.
But it was like, so is Henry like a really
creepy ghost or is he a victim? And it was
I mean, I think it was such a lynchpin to
the whole plot that it felt so important, you know
of like the Winthrop first Braith wife Graith White feud
and all that stuff. But I didn't love it. Yeah,

(39:05):
I'm not where. It was very unsettling for me about it,
and I think Karama touched on it last fine was
this is a story about white man who is benefiting
by tales of black tragedy. And we've talked a little
bit about how this is a very very successful book
being turned into a television show that was written by

(39:27):
a white man that is now benefiting by stories about
Jim Crow, U s O S and the tells, the massacre,
and a lot of other stories about black tragedy. So um,
you know, I think it felt un settling a little
bit for me from that regund whether it was it

(39:48):
not was it not supposed to I read it? Maybe
I was giving too much credit. I read it is
that it was like a meta commentary on that, and
it was supposed to feel unsettling because Henry as a
creepy ghost. He was like he was like Matt Ruff
thinks that he's a creepy ghost. I think, I guess
I thought maybe that Matt Ruff was acknowledging there was
a creepy ghost element to what he was doing, because

(40:09):
I thought that you were supposed to be deeply unsettled
by Henry, maybe because I was, and I assume my
feelings are always. I just felt because Henry had died,
and because Henry had this like mixed race family, um,
this interracial family, that we were supposed to feel sorry
for him, that he was a victim of this as well,
and like his wife and child were a victim of

(40:29):
this as well. But I also thought it was interesting
that there was really no point where there was any
love shown between Henry, which made me curious to the
actual events that led to him taking Pearl with him.
I was just gonna say, it would have been nice

(40:50):
to have given Pearl any sort of conversation, like part
of the conversation, especially because we learned we read about
Ida like in two chapters before, and we'll talk about
up too. But it did feel Yeah, when you think
about it, Henry is the son of Winthrop who was
feuting with Braith White, so he's essentially like Caleb, right,

(41:12):
you know, like that this very rich young white man,
and it is so interesting that his downfall was this
hubris of like being protected and it was like through
he thought he was protected through magic, blah blah blah.
But it's like no black person would be like, oh,
I'm gonna I'll be fine, Like I can move into

(41:34):
this neighborhood where where white people are burning down buildings
and stuff and we'll but we'll be fine. It was
a lot of that, but only her. Um, I guess
what I I Yeah, I was very unsettled by Pearl.

(41:56):
They sort of mentioned that like she does dishes, and
then like something about her reaction whereas something's off with Henry,
and you're right, I wish I got more there, yeah,
because it felt like she was still a mad Yeah. Yes,
she like there's a point where like he is asking
about this story and he's being like, yummy, creepy gossip.
And there was a line where Pearl like it, goes

(42:18):
to the other room and starts like washing dishes a
little louder, a little quieter, so like something that shows
her reaction was very subtle, but she was reacting to it.
I guess the thing that I also did like in
this story, which now as I think about it, fully
agree with you that it is not very clear in
what it was supposed to accomplish. I just I love it.
I love a weird doctor whoset piece. I love I

(42:41):
love a house stuck in one day that's or and
I and I liked the Cola the seasons on and
I like the Coca Cola motif. I like how Coca Cola,
which sort of represents that like perfect suburban white America,
then became the motif for mom. Speaking of dr who
should be? Can we jump back and talk about Hippolytus journey. Yes, Jennifer,

(43:06):
you want to give us the overview of Appolotis star. Okay,
So first of all, and this is very important, Hippolotan
named Pluto when she was a child. Well okay, so
yes she named it. It wasn't um. So Hippolato loves
astronomy and loves studying the stars. And when she was

(43:28):
a very young child, they found a new planet um
that they were taking submissions on what the planet should
be called. She thought that it should be called Pluto
um but unforged and it's called Pluto. But credit went
to I think the head of an astronomy labs daughter

(43:48):
who white lady, Yeah, white girl who drink it in
telegram diddian as soon as the planet was found. And okay,
so it went to a rich little white girl. But
Hippola does still love the planets. And sometimes when she's
driving around exploring for the Safe Travel Guide UM, she

(44:09):
stops off at different observatories. And there's this one moment
that's really nice where when she's younger, she steps off
at a college observatory and the people there are just
perfectly nice to her. I assume that they're white, but
they don't treat it as odd at all that she's

(44:29):
coming and helping them look at the stars, and they
all look at the stars together and it's very beautiful,
and it's hope for a kind of new world where
the future is coming and there are different planets and
maybe there's going to be a better world out there
for all of these people. So man Um. Then she

(44:49):
goes through a portal on Winthrop's property that takes her
to another planet, where it turns out he has imprisoned
his entire household staff because his son ran away with Pearl,
and he's trying to get the staff to explain what
happened to his son, and he just leaves them there

(45:10):
on this different planet where they have a machine that
will conjure up food, but they have to just push
in numbers and something random comes up every time and
hope that's good. Um so he Apoloda meets Ida, who
is there. She used to work for Mr Winthrop. She
says that she's always hoping that maybe hot chocolate is

(45:33):
going to come up, but clearly it does not. Mostly
they conjure things that are gross, and there is a
sea monster at the end of the planet that ate
another member of the household staff who was imprisoned there.
I think it. How many people did it eat at
least one, and every one of the household staff except

(45:55):
for Ida, has died over the past few months in
different ways. Years, but one of them died more recently.
I guess, yeah, five years. Yeah, the more recent one.
The most recent one. They've been in there for like
fifteen twenty years or something. Yeahah. When she was talking

(46:16):
about the calendar and how many days it's been and
it's like, oh, just wow, Okay, on day four thousand,
three hundred sixty seven, I'm like, oh, this is like,
this is like quarantine. It was felt like two really
of all of the like what from a number are
we're going to have tonight? Okay, I guess I'm gonna
look out and hopefully nothing no sea monster doesn't kill

(46:38):
me anyway, move on. Also, when I read this, my
dumb brain was like, it sounds like they're on a
nice tiny house in this planet. Like I don't know why.
My brain immediately was like, this is like those like
I don't know why. It's like a beautiful tiny house
made out of like shipping containers because there's metal every whatever.
I was imagining the smart House from Spy Kids. I

(47:00):
thought you were going to say the smart house from
Smart House. Now, that's too high tech. But when in
the film Spike Kids, early on they go to like
this smart house, and that's what I was imagining something
I wasn't very I was imagining something much more bleak.
And just have you guys seen The Light the Lighthouse? Yeah,
Black and White Man the most stressful movie I do not.

(47:23):
It's a great movie that I do not recommend um
because they stressed me out too much. But that was
it's a little my imagery was a little bit bleaker. Well,
and I think that Ten's point does stand where it
would be lovely if they had chosen to be there
and right it was like, oh cool, we get to
experiment with different foods, and like if they had the

(47:44):
instructions for also what the foods were, it would be
nice to try different things different days and to go
walk along the beach. But there's a monster and it's
they're held captive. Yes, but in the Doctor the Doctor
who twist of the episode, clearly it's a it's a
show I like, but you always find out like the
personal story and then there's always a little turn is

(48:05):
that Ida's daughter is Pearl, who ran away with Henry
Winthrop and he Winthrop Senior, then in prison them all
to to get information out of them. But of course
I had never talked because she knew that it wouldn't
end well for her daughter and she wanted to protect
her daughter, which is also died. He died before he
could come back for them. Well that yeah, he's but

(48:28):
she doesn't Ida doesn't know that. Yeah. She finds out
that he died, and but that he's a ghost and
that if he she doesn't want to funk with him
as a ghost either. So she's like, I'm just gonna
hang out here so my daughter can be saying yeah,
And she's like, no one, tell tell no one where
I am. I do not want to come back. I

(48:50):
just I don't want to funk with a ghost. I
just want to keep my daughter safe. And she gives
she gives Apolita. Ida gives HIPAA to a present um
and she's like, no, no, don't open this until you're gone.
No no, no, no, no, don't open until you're gone.
So they watch as she left the portal open, and

(49:12):
then two guards come through and a monster see them.
One monster eats them both great while the monster when
the monsters away, digesting leaves and she's like, yeah, there's
got like black hose intolerance. I love he really indulged.
We've all been there and uh, She's like, do you

(49:32):
want to come with me? And she's like no, no,
cannot screw with this creepy ghost. Goodbye, and as have
halts leaving with this box. Cops are at her car
and they're like racist cops trying to interrogate what she
was doing there and they're like, yeah, what you got there?

(49:53):
And they opened the box and it's a love monster
and it eats the cops. It's pretty a lot of
monsters eating cops in this. Yeah. Yeah, I'm still skeptical
about whether or not Matt Ropp should be the one
to write this book. But I do appreciate the monsters
eating the races, and I think his heart, his heart
is in the right place. Yeah, I mean it's okay.

(50:16):
The only thing that I can compare this too, because
I am not a woman of color is um Sometimes
I do not love men writing female protecting us because
you get a lot of like she woke up rustily
in the morning, her breasts were still there, her nipples
were so hard. It was morning times for this a woman.

(50:39):
But actually, attend to me, I have to look down
every time. Um, but that's sad um. One of my
all time favorite books about the female experiences mat and Bovary,
and it's about a rural woman in France and it
was written by an urban man. So there's a big
difference between whether things are done since of lee and

(51:00):
well and with consideration for the people they're depicting, or
whether or not they're just taking a crazy big swing
and making a lot of generalizing. I think to me,
there's like there's two big questions. It's like, well, one
like did he approach this, you know, like with a
you know, good heart and sensitively and was the portrayal well?
And that's great and good, But then there are is

(51:22):
also the separate issue, completely separate from like whether he
did a good or bad job in the book of
like in our country, with the systemic imbalances in place,
a white person has more resources to have a best
selling book, and whether he is the one to benefit
from telling these stories, which I think is a very

(51:43):
nuanced and complicated question that the five of us will
not and should not solve in the next half an hour, definitely,
but I do love that. But I do love that
we talk about it because it's really important, and I
think that, like, yeah, I think that we can't avoid
talking about it. You don't talk about it, then you're
not looking at the book as a part of the world,
in the fabric of the world that we went. You're
looking at it in a vacuum yes, which it is not,

(52:08):
but speaking a vacuum space. So that was I think
in a minus transition. Um, so we are Hippolyta has
the cops eaten by the monsters, and she gets into
her car and goes. But then she realizes that the
comic that Horace drew from her and missing. Okay, this

(52:33):
is now a transition into the story that I thought
was the scariest. And I when I say I hated
the story, not because I hated its content, but I
just was viscerally unhappy because this one tapped into all
my fears. And I did text you all and say,
don't read this one before night, because I did, and
it I still did. I didn't mean to, but the
night as I was reading it, I had to get through,

(52:54):
and I'm like Oh no, Danta told me to think
that I'm not, and I did it anyway. It was
so what I've that this was the scariest one he
was by a lot. It was such a Jurrain transition
because it starts off with Horace talking about not having
been to the Jim Crow South, and it seems like
he has a better experience in the world than certainly

(53:16):
some of the older people, certainly than Montrose, who had
to live through the Tulsa race riots. Horace talks about how,
you know, he'd heard that some woman who was a
teacher died and she couldn't be taken to a white
hospital and it took too long to get an ambulance.
It would take her to a black hospital, and Torce
is like, oh, maybe I should have like gotten on

(53:37):
the phone and try to explain the situation. They try
to explain it explained she was a teacher, which is
in itself, I think, a very privileged kind of mindset
that you'll just people and they'll come around and see
that you're just a good person and keep better experience,

(53:58):
and a lot of people in this book, look if
that's still a mindset that he can have. I mean,
my sister. I have a sister who's ten years old
with the same dad and different moms, and I was
babysitting her once a few years ago. This was whenever
Beyonce's Lemonade came out, whatever year that was, because I
was like, you need to hear this, So I played
the I played the censored version for her, um, and

(54:20):
she was like listening. And then there was I think
Kendrick Lamar was rapping in Freedom, and she was like,
is this guy brown? He sounds brown? And I was like, yes,
he is, because she was like, brown guys are always
singing like she was like, that's what rap music is. Yes, correct, Um,
She's a child who's interesting. And she said, well, I

(54:43):
heard that a long time ago that people wanted to
hurt brown people just for being brown. And I was like, oh, baby,
I have news for you. Not a long time ago.
Did you tell her racism once? Yes? I had to,
because I can't be like, oh, yes, that was a
long time ago, it's never gonna happen to you buy.
I had to be like, no, that still happens a

(55:04):
lot today, and I'm really sorry to have to be
the one to tell you. But I'm also super glad
that you didn't already know, because it means that maybe
the world is getting slightly better. Because I was called
the N word for the first time when I was four.
Oh my god, Well, I'm sorry, that's terrible difference happened
to you. I mean, it's it happens. I mean it's

(55:27):
Horace learned his lesson very quickly. Uh. And he is
the one who I feel like, out of everyone, he's
the one that I felt like there was the most
like mortal risk to I was like, they're like the
breathing thing was so scary. I thought, like just that
it does feel like Indie and I feel like this
is why, aside from the evil doll that tries to

(55:50):
kill him, like it it's like a to me, a
common nightmare or it's a common thing in dreams where
you can't speak, you know, like or you can't you're
trying to say something but you can't. That's like a
common theme in dreams, and I have those nightmares sometimes,
and it's like the idea of like any time you're
trying to speak the truth and trying to warn your family,

(56:13):
your parents of this danger that's going to befall them.
He literally cannot breathe and and he chokes and he
and he goes to the hospital that it was so
that was just as scary as it all to me.
He gets. So the cliff Notes version is the evil
cops that we had met before confront him because they
traced the comic book that the mom had, and they

(56:35):
incorrectly but sort of correctly, assumed that this family is
working with Caleb, and they're like, well, you spy for us,
and they sort of read his mind and know that
he's not going to spy for them, and so instead
they give him this mark of Caine via spit where
it's like a curse that um by rubbing his head,
which is a very important detail because there's so much

(56:56):
like cultural stuff with white people touching black people's hair,
and so that felt like a very telling detail. But
the curse not only made him unable to speak, as
Melissa said, about what his experience was with these police officers,
but also meant that like racist depictions of black people
around him, like Uncle Ben and like a lawn jockey

(57:21):
and then later a devil dell Um now are animate animate. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
it was a black Peter, a black Peter black Peter Um.
So now like racist cultural depictions of black people are
now weabinized against him, uh and actively want to kill

(57:41):
him in the creepiest way possible. Well, and it's interesting
because it's supposed to be things that you're already afraid
of come to get you, and that's the curse. So
it's like, oh, he's afraid of racism, which is what
shows up in that first story where it's like, what
did they call to see if the lady could go
to the hospital, And it's like this very big specter,
this idea that you could die because of racism, even

(58:04):
if you are already dying. White people will not be like, yes,
come in, we will fix you and then kick you out.
It's like no, no, die yeah. And they have that
really direct parallel imagery in the very end of the
chapter when when he's running for his life from the
doll and the cop is like, where are you running from?
What did you do? And he is a puts his

(58:27):
gun in his mouth, I think, and and they say
like the cop turns his head at the same time
the devil doll turns his head the doll. But but
it is like that is his fear is that cop
or the racist people that are trying to kill you.
I'm interested to hear from all of you as non

(58:50):
black people. Um, there was the thing that kept coming
up of the of the white guy who was like
disheveled and playing dice and wanted to rub the kid's
head for good luck. Were you familiar with that, like
rubbing his head for good luck? Thing that that was
a thing? No? Prior to reading, I did not know.

(59:11):
I just need about that. Yeah, I love how like
very viscerally upset all of you are, and you're just like, no,
I didn't know. It was terrible. So grows so bad
that nobody here thinks it's a good idea. If you're
a listener, don't do that. I think I don't think

(59:33):
anybody thinks it's a good You can't see our faces,
but we're all like violently like you're going to throw up,
all of you. So how did you Did you realize
that that was a thing after seeing that in the
in the text, or were you like, oh, this is
about touching hair? What what was that like? Experience learning

(59:54):
about a new facet of racism is always really fun,
Like when I found out that Spook was a racial
slur for black people. I was watching a musical. I
was like, Oh, that's new cool. Yeah, but nobody calls
me that next week. I think that the way it
was written made it very clear to me that that
was a thing, um racist thing that I did not

(01:00:15):
know because it is not my lived experience and I
didn't see it otherwise. Um. But it was very upsetting
because it yeah, it was just upsetting. It does it
like it points out. It does make me very aware
of like the bubble of privilege and then the discomfort
because like, also it reminds me. There was a bar

(01:00:37):
in West Hollywood that I used to go to a
lot which is now called the Pikey, which I went
to England. Oh yeah, I mentioned to a friend of mine.
I was like, oh, there's a British pub I go
to boh blah And I mentioned the name and they
like looked at me because that's a bad like a

(01:00:57):
racial slur against Romani people that would you would not
use and pullit company in England And they're like, it's
an a British pub with that name, and I was like, yeah,
oh god, that's so why would they do that? And
I had no idea I had never heard that slur before,
and then a lot of people don't realize I'm going

(01:01:18):
to say it just for the purpose of teaching people
what it is. A lot of people say it, so
nobody's gonna be like, but gypsy is also a slow Yes,
it was one that I was trying, and I grew
up saying like, oh you you got jipped. And I
didn't know that two and two together. And I always like,
I only learned that one, you know, embarrassingly, like maybe

(01:01:39):
five years ago or something. When I made my Wednesday
Adam show, I put this character of a gypsy, and
to me, I've always like, I love like I love
characters like gypsies. So it felt like a beautiful homage
and I'm like, oh no, I did not. I am

(01:02:00):
so sorry. You know, you learn the hard way sometimes,
well you grow you grow up. You like, live in
this environment where people frustrating because people hold on to
their ideas of what that works. And this then like
it means you're free spirit. I'm like, no, it doesn't.
It is a thing that people who are called that
asked not to be called and ask us not to use,

(01:02:22):
So let's stop using it. People love holding onto a
thing because they're like, but I'm not racist, and I
use that word, so it's can't be a racist anymore.
You can just not use it now. It's like they're
a narrow house and it's like you don't get much
news there, but you're racists for using that word. If
you hold onto that word, you are actively engaging. It's

(01:02:42):
just about learning and letting go, like not holding on
to like the romanticized version that you had your head.
You can just say, oh no, I didn't know that.
I'll stop using that word. All right, let's take a
breather right there, uh, and have a word from one
of our sponsors. You're listening to Popcorn Book Club for

(01:03:05):
My Heart Radio, and we'll be back right after the break.
So we're back with Popcorn Book Club for My Heart Radio.
Are there other stories that people wanted to I think,
I mean, I think we should do at the end,
you want to take it from here, I'll let somebody

(01:03:28):
else have before Melissa, Melissa take it away. Take a
setup and of the heist and this actually it's it's
not a heist comes off of Horace and the Double Doll.
So um, so after that chapter or at the end,
Braith White comes over and cures him, cures Horace of
this curse and it's like, if it was in blood,

(01:03:49):
that would have been permanent or almost almost impossible to lift,
and good thing it wasn't. And uh. And then he's like,
guess what, We're all gonna takedown Lancaster or I'm gonna
I'm gonna take down Lancaster because he's trying to take
down me and also not not me us And so
he tells he all of all of these characters he

(01:04:12):
should like gathered all of these black people that now
work for him by force. Um. And it's like, you're
all gonna help me because otherwise they're going to kill you,
so you really don't have an option. Um. And he
sort of does that thing where he's like the same
way he manipulated Mantros and an atticists to go to
the to go get the handwritten notes for him, that

(01:04:34):
thing where he's like, so you don't have to go,
but I'm probably going to become like the King of
the Magicians and like Grandmother. He's like, you don't have to,
but the alternative is I won't know you any favors,
and you're gonna die. And also I took your grandmother's

(01:04:54):
book that you were protecting forever. Um. Also just side
note the in that chapter, UM, Caleb repaid the debt
that was owed to his grandmother for his time her
time being a slave, and that was like three thousand
dollars in nine fifties. Money was just so much money, um,

(01:05:17):
which comes in later so and he's like, you should
be grateful, and I was like, no, that's my money.
It's like no, no, no, that was she worked for
no money. And also yes, and Caleb was just like
you're welcome. Um. Caleb's like, on racism is done now
and it's done. I fixed it. It's over. And yeah.
But so they all of the so all of the

(01:05:40):
characters that we've come to love throughout the story come
together at the at the Freemason the Prince Hall Freemason's
secret room. Horse is very excited to be in a
secret room and they're like, all right, let's all trade
our story. So they all trade the stories and uh
uh and let's figure out here here's the plan. Ruby

(01:06:04):
gives them the plan because Ruby is still working for Braithwhite,
and uh, they're like, but we're also going to kill
uh Caleb, and they're like, how can we do that?
He has immunity, Like, but I know someone who knows
how to fix that. And it's a ghost. So Letitia
talks to in Montrose. I think I believe those are

(01:06:28):
George Georgia Montrose. Uh oh, it's Montrose has the book
that when the Reinthrop's ghost wanted. I'm gonna fast forward.
I'm getting too mired in the details. But they get
we know they're gonna they have They now have the
secret to kill Caleb. And then this whole haisty very
Oceans eleven stuff happens super fun where Caleb goes in

(01:06:50):
with Atticus, and Atticus is supposed to be this like good,
like here you go, you can kill Atticus. Now to Lancaster.
There's a lot of ten Scian Lancaster and uh, Caleb
meet Atticus is standing there and then meanwhile there's all
this other stuff happening under the guise of helping Caleb.

(01:07:11):
That's what Caleb thinks. So like Letitia was hiding in
the car and she has this like magic wand that
that makes people pass out for a few hours not
remember anything. Amazing. Um and uh, Hippolita is with Hillary
who is Ruby, but she does not know that. And
they bring down some guards and then they're all doing

(01:07:34):
different ship, even the Prince Hall Freemason people like Abdullah
and Pirate Joe and there there. I love that. I
can't wait for the scene of the show. It seems
like it's going to be super fun and like comedic
to uh. And so just as landcasters like, sorry, Caleb,

(01:07:59):
I have this spell that I'm going to try on
you an Atticus. It's a blood spell where it's going
to I control your immunity and if you ever betray me,
I can immediately kill you. And I'm gonna put it
a try it on you and on Atticus. I don't
know if it's perfect, but we're going to try it.
All these people come out Lancaster's Allies and then all

(01:08:20):
of a sudden, Caleb whistles and the like they're all
of the parts of the plan come together. There's like
smoke that comes through the comes through the room through
the fire. That one is the most high jinksie, like
the white smoke that comes out of a Coca cola smoke.
That's not magic, that's just like dropping a smoke. Yeah,

(01:08:43):
And it's put inside a Coca cola little Montrose moment.
And then Atticus and Caleb get out of there. They're
stuck there. Uh And finally uh, they're able to Oh.
They kill all of Lancaster and their people through a

(01:09:04):
similar sort of ritual like the one in the first
chapter with Atticus, but this time Lancaster and his goons
are in a circle and instead of being taken by light,
they are taken by darkness and they disappear. Um. And
then just as Caleb is going to get the book

(01:09:24):
of Names, wow, this book out of a safe um,
Atticus has a literal trick up his sleeve like the beginning,
and he has this words of adam On written on
his arm that he's memorized. He says them as he
puts his hand on on Caleb's chest. It's like, what

(01:09:48):
are you doing? Why are you doing this? And don't
kill me? And he's like, oh, we're not going to
kill you. And then I think we've discussed drops him
outside of He's like, you're basically like banished, like you
can't come into drop Indiana. Yeah. Oh, and he puts
the body of Lancaster in his trunk, so you know,

(01:10:09):
he'll probably get out of it because of white privilege.
But you know, he's he's got a body in his
trunk and he's in the middle of nowhere, and uh,
he's like some sort of will come after you. And
they're like, do you know what it's like to be
black in the fifties? People are always coming after us.
It's fine, it's the entire book. It's everything that has

(01:10:29):
happened in the entire book. I like that they sort
of reverse screen book, Uh Caleb, and they give him
a little map of the places he can't go too,
and it's like places live in, like places like black communities.
They're like, well, you just can't go there. Sorry, Detroit.
Do you drive around Harlem? You should be fine. I

(01:10:50):
also do think that it's interesting because, like I said,
I did read parts of the Edge through all of
You that the way that they undo him is sort
of the same way similar to what happened to Winthrop's wife,
where it was like a play on words or a
pun and that's how they corrupted his mark of Cain
on his chest. So he still has it, but it's

(01:11:13):
like if he tries to access magic, he will get hurt. Yeah,
And he's still okay if people actively try to kill
him for the most part, but like he can't do
any other magic. Yeah, yeah, I like that. The resolution
is like they all shared their knowledge, which is a
very good like organizing technique for anything, for wage equality

(01:11:33):
for anything, is the good advice. It's like, if you
want justice from someone in power, you've got to compare
notes with other people. And they worked together, and then
they literally took his literal and figurative power from the
situation because he underestimated them. He assumed that. He's like,
I paid you, racism is over, and now you're all grateful,
happy servants to me. I think there's also a pretty

(01:11:56):
important message about the fact that somebody is nice, sort
of pulite, do you not meaning that they were a
good person, That Kilby is still absolutely equal in spite
of the fact that he can have a pleasant relationship
with certain members of these groups. Yeah, when it benefits
him direct benefits him. Yeah. And he even says he's like,

(01:12:18):
these people are going to come after you. They're not
going to see you as family or even a person.
And I'm like, I'm sorry, did you see them as
family or even people? I think you saw them as
ponds or as like cogs in the machine of your
own grandiosity. He is constantly putting them into positions where
they might die, and you get this impression that if
they did die, he would look he would still go

(01:12:40):
out to dinner, like I would be sad. He might
be sad, but I feel like you'd be more sad
than mission failed. I meant that book he's evil throughout,
but he's evil throughout. But the story with Horace where
he like lets this young boy get assaulted by a
cop and like he's watching the whole time. He even

(01:13:01):
comes out and says, I just had to wait and see,
Like if you could get that, if you could get
the devil out, and like I had to see. And
you're like, Caleb, you are a told little piece of ship. Yeah,
he's like I needed I needed him you to learn
him out so I could see him. So he put
the kid through That is human bait. Yeah. Yeah, Well
let's talk about the show. Yeah, big change it, Yeah,

(01:13:24):
big change. I'm gonna say, I don't like that they
changed their last name. I don't like that his name
is like Atticus Freeman or Atticus Black, depending on the Yeah.
At first, I thought it was a right thing where like,
oh maybe there is maybe in Los Angeles. But but
the but the fact that two different people called him

(01:13:44):
different things, they're they're setting something up. Yeah, I mean
one thing I like and I'm really excited to see.
I've only watched the first two episodes, but I'll just
talk about the first one. Um is that Caleb is Christina.
I think it's really cool that it's a woman and
that Horace is a little girl. Like I think those changes.

(01:14:06):
I'm I think Caleb being Christina I think is gonna
play out really interestingly. And like how does a woman
navigate this space? Um? And yeah, I think she can
like weaponize weaponize her way. But can you anticipate? Can
we talk about the monster sequence? Oh my god, I didn't.

(01:14:28):
So I was watching this with a friend who we
were quarantine pots together, and she's like, is this scary?
And I was like, no, it's more spooky than scary.
And I told her, I quote, don't worry. The real
scariness is like actual racist people. There's no like actual
supernatural horror. And then and then actual c g I

(01:14:49):
monsters showed up and she just glared at me. It
was a real shift from the book where the monsters
would be are like oh my flight happens, or like
a spooky darkness. Yeah, yeah, it was definitely. I kind
of liked it because, like I think I said before,

(01:15:11):
I don't do well with like vague eldridge monsters. But
when they were like, oh, this is like a vampire,
I was like, Okay, I know the mythology of vampires.
I understand how they work. And I saw that that
that that police officer had a big bite taken out
of him, and I was like, this is not going
to end well. And I even remember when they barricaded
themselves and I'm like, you need to leave his ass

(01:15:32):
outside because he's got a bite. I guess I understand
why they made that change, because television is a visual
medium and they wanted something with I guess a lot
of visual interest. For me personally, I always find that
a non scary thing, the threat of a scary thing
is always scarier than when you actually see it in
like a clover field or a quiet place way like

(01:15:55):
for me or Jaws to me, as soon as you
see the thing, just like any horror movie, it's is
less scary to me. But I also think to you
at that point, Dana, I I feel mixed about it
because sometimes I really like, you know, like an alien
or the thing. But but it does feel it just
felt jarring and out of place in a way of
like everything else is so tense and like spooky from Afar,

(01:16:18):
and then when you see those monsters it almost felt
silly to me and not scary because it was like, oh,
those are well, they have a lot of eyes. Uh.
One one thing that I actively did not like about
the first episode, and I just have to say it
really quick, is I didn't like how in the book
they planned really carefully when to go through the Sundown County,

(01:16:40):
and that is in the characters they are very smart,
careful people who understand these risks and did not take
them lightly. And the story about the cop who gave
the sheriff who gave a driver six minutes to get
across the state line is a story they heard from
someone else and it had been reported back to them,
where in this adaptation they have that happened to our

(01:17:01):
main characters. But our main characters knew that was a
sundown county and knew the risks, and unlike the book
where they're like we'll go at three am. They just
were driving through it six minutes before sundown. They didn't
know in the in the show. They didn't have that
story relayed to them in the show. But I thought
they knew that Devon County was a sundown. They didn't know. Okay,

(01:17:24):
never mind, I read the book. I think that was
not made clear. I think the other thing I was
a little disappointed by. And I really loved the pilot,
but the other thing was like I feel like they
kind of smoothed out the edges of Letitia, Like they
didn't make her as like gritty and kind of a badass,
which I feel like we really got in those chapters

(01:17:46):
of the book, like that she wasn't hiding in the
back of the car and like lighting the cop car
and fire and releasing the horse. It was like she's
so I mean, she's also so beautiful, and but she's
also so put together, truly just tractically distracting, and that
she's but I just wish she was like she's dressed
so perfectly tailored from the beginning, like as opposed to

(01:18:08):
the transformation with the clothes, Like I wanted her to
be just a little bit Rougher and I don't, and
they do definitely put emphasis on the relationship, the love
interest between her and again like very a classic Hollywood
my god. Yeah, yeah, yeah, weird because that wasn't really
in the book. I don't think so. He's like, I

(01:18:33):
was sweet on you when we were a little I
feel like there's that vibe, but it's not like, oh,
I'm sweet on you now. It doesn't seem like Lititia's
goal is I'm going to get together with that, because
it seems like her goal is very reasonably, I'm going
to own a large house and out room. That's a
very valid and reasonable goal. She's very much like Tiana

(01:18:56):
and the Princess in the Frog. She's like, I want
to be a small business own that's my goal, not
on the table. I love Otherwise. I love the cast.
Courtney b Vans can do no wrong. I'm like, I
feel like they've given that character a lot more to
do in the show and getting a little ahead. But
it just feels like such a such a good use

(01:19:20):
of him as an actor. The actor I, as you mentioned,
are so good looking. I just wanted Yes, everyone is
very good looking, though I will say the guy that's
playing Atticus does not look twenty two. Fine, he's so,
but I think that they take that detail out of
the movie of the show because I was like, he
looks twenty two, like I look like beyonest, Like he's

(01:19:42):
like he's whatever age Jonathan Major's is because he needs
to be in this part. Yeah, I think he's like
early thirties at the oldest, and he looks the age
that he is. He just looks the age that he is. Um,
I don't remember this being in the book at all.
But do they have a comment at any point in
the book that any of you can remember about Letitia
being light skinned? They do. Yeah, they her to Ruby

(01:20:06):
that she and Ruby look very different than Ruby. Because
I saw that seeing that on the screen, I was like,
who's their parents? Because they do that a lot. I
feel like in Hollywood, where they'll have two related black
people that don't look anything alike but like they're both
black people will get it and they have completely different

(01:20:26):
skin tones, and like, there's no earthly way these two
people came from the same parents. So I couldn't remember that.
I'm glad that you refresh my memories. I was indeed
in there. Yeah, I did. Um, not tied to the
show at all. That I did think that that was
interesting that Letitia was lighter skinned and Ruby was darker skinned,
and Ruby decided she wanted to live life as a
white woman at the end. Mm hmm, yeah, I mean options,

(01:20:49):
colorism and racism are real. Yeah, but I'm excited to
keep watching the shows. I liked the weird Vampire c
g I monsters. I'm vampire Monsters, Game Time Vampire CTI
monsters because here's the thing, Um, there were moments reading
this book where I was terrified, But they were all

(01:21:10):
moments where they were just dealing with normal racism. They
were moments where Letitia was being pursued by like white
man in her neighborhood who were going to do something
terrible to her. Um, they were not moments when I
saw any of the monsters. Like the sea monster is
kind of not that scary in this book, and that
feels like the biggest, most notable rock. Yeah it's rock.

(01:21:32):
You're just avoided. Yeah, And the doll is scary but
not physically threatening. It's like scary yeah, um yeah, it's
more scary that this man who has lost control of
his body. Um, And um, yeah, I think trying to
make the monsters a big scary thing in the show,

(01:21:54):
it takes me a little bit away from the fact
that the real terror here is the everyday racism that
these characters are experied an say, I felt like it
leaned into the pulpiness, and it does that in the
very first scene where Atticus is having this sort of
dream nightmare of war and also the um I forgot
the name of the story, Princess of Mars, a Princess

(01:22:16):
of Mars, excuse me wrong, article, um, but he's having
that dream that combines all of this sort of pulp
fiction and his actual war experience. And I felt like
that was what appealed to me about the CT monsters,
because it did feel kind of pulpy and kind of like, yeah,
that's what I was gonna say. And I feel like

(01:22:37):
that's what the filmmakers are choosing to lean into, is
the love crafty and aspects and like those kinds of
monsters that are both scary and silly. Uh. It does
remind out if anyone's seen the thing, but it's a
very uh John Carpenter's horror movie from the eighties, where
like at the time it was such a austle commercial

(01:23:01):
and critical failure that it like ruined his career for
a while, Like he went to director jail and like
they canceled his contract. And then like ten years later, uh,
they're like, oh wait, this is an amazing movie and
it's very and now it's a cult classic and I
love it if you've seen it. But it is like
the monster is so grotesque that it's scary but also funny.

(01:23:25):
And I think that's a you know, I thought it
was scary and also funny because there's that moment where
the police officer, the first one turns into this He's like,
you need to shoot it. Yeah, there is a lot
of times show. Obviously it's Jordan Peel who does so.
I mean and we should green, but like is known

(01:23:47):
to do to write that line, and I appreciate that line. Yeah.
I also want to point out that it's just like
it looks visually beautiful, like it looks like so much
of money on that pilot. Oh my god. When the
three of them get out of the car at the
dinet and they're just like standing next to that wood

(01:24:07):
paneled car looking fine. I'm just like, also in the fifties,
I could not this is just as a producer, like
a period outdoor dance sequence with tons of extras in
period costumes. That that alone is millions and millions of dollars.

(01:24:27):
You didn't watch No, No one's got a shame. Yeah, okay.
I was trying to say I wanted to jump in
and be like, I did not watch this so that
I could be shamed, and then there didn't seem like
a good time. Coral should be bringing the shame. But

(01:24:48):
you can watch it with everybody else when it's on HBO,
Max and HBO on August. Thank you, thanks so much
for thnks to Popcorn Book Club. See y'all next week.
That's our show for the week. Thank you so much

(01:25:09):
for listening. I'm Danis Schwartz and you can find me
on Twitter at Danish Schwartz with three z s. You
can follow Jennifer Wright at jen Ashley Wright Drama, donqua
Is at Karama Drama, Melissa Hunter is at Melissa f
t W and Tian Tran is smart enough to have
gotten off Twitter, but she is on Insta at Hank Tina.
Our executive producer is Christopher Hesiodes and we're produced and

(01:25:32):
edited by Mike Johns. Next week, we moved from telling
black stories through sci fi to telling black stories and
young adult literature with The Hate You Give by Angie Thomas.
Very excited about that one. If you haven't read that book,
you absolutely should. Popcorn Book Club is a production of
I Heart Radio. See you next week.