October 12, 2020 • 50 mins
Happy October, Popcorn Book Club listeners! We covered horror and monsters and cults of scary white people a few weeks ago with our discussion of Lovecraft Country, and so we’re covering the other side of this spooky season with the gothic thriller Rebecca by Daphne du Maurier, soon to be a film on Netflix. Not “goth” in the sense of dressing in all black and listening to Bauhaus, but “gothic” as in romance and death!
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Next week we'll continue our discussion of Rebecca before taking on both the Hitchcock and Netflix adaptations for our "Screen Time" episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Halfy October Popcorn Book Club listeners. We've covered horror and
monsters and cults of scary white people a few weeks
ago with our discussion of love Craft Country, and now
we're covering the other side of the spooky season with
the gothic thriller Rebecca by Daphne Demurier Moyer. Oh God,
my French. Soon to be a film on Netflix. Not
(00:26):
goth in the sense of dressing and all black and
listening to Bauhaus, but gothic like gothic romance and death,
you know. Fun. She does not care at all that
her husband committed cold murder. She's like, but he hated her.
He killed her because he hated her. Who I was.
I was hooked in that moment because I'm like, Oh,
she's going to take us on a ride, because she's
(00:47):
going to try to explain away or try to reason
all these very very real red flags. Welcome back to
Popcorn Book Club. I am Danis Schwartz, joined as always
by Karamadanqua, Jennifer Wright and Melissa Hunter and Tian tram
Hi everyone. I am so so excited that we're talking
about the book Rebecca. I had never read it and
(01:09):
I feel like once maybe in my childhood, I had
started the prologue and I got like two pages in
and I was like, man and put it down. And
once you sort of get over the hump of like
the first like pages, this book really takes off. Tim.
What was your experience. I I absolutely loved it, kind
(01:30):
of the same though I was like at first, I
was thinking to myself, I can't wait for this book
to pick up. Everyone's been talking about it. And then
when it picks up, Oh baby, it picks up, and
I thoroughly enjoyed it. All the characters are really fleshed
out and funny, funny, and the narrator is I don't
know about you all, but it's hilarious to me, so
(01:51):
so funny to me. Um. So I'm like super excited
to watch all the adaptations too, because I like, really
hope that they stay true to some of the quirks
and are like personality traits of everyone. Because I really
really loved it. Uh, Jennifer, you had read this book
before and you were you were vouching for it for us.
(02:12):
What is your experience with Rebecca? It was really interesting
because I read this when I was a teenager, and
it was around the same time I was reading books
like Janier and was wearing plights, and this really fits
into that Gothic romance category. And I feel like I
had a very different experience with it now as an
(02:33):
adult then um, when I felt when I was a teenager,
I definitely had a lot more simply for Rebecca. Now
as an adult, I still think the second Mrs de Winter,
who has no name, is incredibly funny and likable. Um,
I think I had a different perspective on her loyalty
to Maxim than I do when I was a sixteen
(02:56):
year old girl. So we can get into that as
discuss it, I will say she is a ride or die. Yeah, Karama,
you as you made before we start recording, you mentioned
that you did not finish this book. Not you care
to elaborate. Well, first of all, I would just like
(03:17):
to start by saying I know that I'm going to
start getting a reputation as the person that doesn't finish
the book, but I actually so. I was very worry
about reading it. I was like, this feels boring. I
don't want to read this, and then everybody was like
it picks up in and I was like Okay, I
(03:38):
will read it. And I got more than that far
and I just felt like it never picked up for me,
and like, I got almost two hundred pages in before
I was like, how much time am I going to
invest in something that is genuinely difficult for me to enjoy?
And I kind of wanted to have a discussion at
(04:01):
least at some point during this conversation about when it's
okay to sort of abandon a book, because I was like, Oh,
I really really put in the effort, and I've gotten
to the point where people are like, this is where
it really starts. And I do think that there are
good things about it. I don't think that it is
an irredeemable book, and I just I also have my
own biases. I don't like romantic Gothic literature. I don't
(04:22):
I didn't like Wuthering Heights, I never read gene Air.
I was just like, no, this style is not for me.
And so I found that revulsion and like sort of
pushing against it again. Reading this book, I was like,
oh God, I really don't enjoy anything about this. But
I'm really excited to watch it as a film because
I think that the core plot elements really will lend
(04:43):
themselves to an exciting, thrilling viewing experience. I will say
I want to go on record as saying I think
if you're not enjoying a book, you can always abandon it.
They're like, if you give a book a fair chance,
life is too short. There's no there's so many good
books in the world. It's I feel like it's kind
of like watching the first three episodes of a TV
(05:05):
show and if it doesn't really like everyone has a
limit of like how far you commit to a TV show?
Why not for a book to you know? So, Melissa,
what was your response to Rebecca? Oh? God, I loved it.
I mean I had I did have the same experience
in the beginning where I felt it was very slow.
(05:25):
I was reading like I couldn't read it at night
because I kept on falling asleep within a page. Um
And it reminded me of high school where I was like,
I have to read this book. But then. But but
I do think on the flip side of have being
so happy we are doing this podcast is like normal
Melissa would just have given up at that point. But
(05:47):
because we are doing this podcast, and I my main
motivation is not being publicly shamed. Um, I I'm a
very I'm very good student in that way, like I
love deadlines to other people. I pushed through and I
think it was around like like right after she went
to Manderley when I was just like when Mrs Danvers
(06:10):
came in and everything that I was just like, oh,
there's something going on and I don't quite know what
it is. And then just like the building tension was
so much for me, and I just loved the hero
so much and was so like in on this ride
with her that I loved it. And so no, no, no, no, no, okay, yeah,
(06:38):
sorry the narrator, No, that would have been interesting. No
judgment has been fun. We just would have talked about it. Jen.
The listeners can't see your face, but I can't. There
was judgment there. Yeah. I love him every you know.
He just reminds me of my fiance. I want. I
(07:00):
want a boy who will bring me to his house
and then never talk to me like a dog. Yeah, baby,
like three things on a platter, foods. I'm just like,
I had a lot of problem with the food waste. Yeah,
so much food. She never and she was too insecured
(07:21):
at I also very much related she there's so much
going around. Yeah, I feel like I think, Danny, you're
saying too. Like I just related so hard to her,
like I was hurt eighteen of like just having these
(07:43):
imagined conversations of what people are saying, with the horrible
things people are saying about me and like these I
just called it, like Rebecca the room Nation cycle because
it just felt like she was just this constant, circular,
like reaffirming of these beliefs that she was so distracted
(08:03):
by that she didn't notice that her she finally realized,
like her sticking point is he never loved her. Oh
my god, he never loved her. Yeah, it's like the best,
the best news ever that he killed her. It's that's
the writer is so funny. She does not care at
(08:26):
all that her husband committed She's like, but he hated her.
He killed her because he hated her. It was very
obvious to me that he killed her, Like I clocked
that very early on, and I'm like, wait, okay, so
you don't realize that this dude straight marked his ex wife,
(08:47):
Like you don't know that lady, Like I before they left,
what was the kipping point for you? Because I absolutely
did not know that. I remember that time I read it.
It came as a real shocked No I knew, and
I never read this book. I didn't know anything about
the movie. I didn't know it existed until Jenn suggested
(09:08):
we read it. So I was reading it and I
was I remember I was like, on page seventy five
or something, I was like, Oh, this motherfucker killed his wife.
I don't remember the exact moment. I think it was, um.
I think it was when Beatrice first came about. I
(09:29):
feel like she kind of knew. She didn't know for sure,
but she was like, oh, well, I hope you guys
are happy, and I was like, oh, okay, with everything
else that's been leading up to this, and the way
that it was talking about Robecca and the way he's like,
I wish you wish you could bottle your memories and
I wish that I never had to think of them again.
And I'm like, oh, she murdered her. Yeah, and he
(09:52):
tutor twice every year, he uncontrollably exactly, So I he
was about the Beatrice visit where I was like, oh, okay,
he killed her. And I think for me also realizing
that early on it didn't make the book interesting to
read because I'm think it's taking so long to get
to the murder. I will say what I found very
(10:12):
relatable is that as someone who uh does not know
how to ask for things or or advocate for myself,
it was very relatable. As we were mentioning with like
the food waste the second Mrs de Winter clocks like
there is a ton of food waste in this house,
and it takes the full arc of the book for
her to be able to be like, fucking reuse the
same food, you assholes. But me, I'm like, I do
(10:36):
not ask for anything, like I have like a manager,
and I'm always like, can I ask her to I
don't want to send this thing to her. I don't
want to bother her. And my friends had to be like,
she works for you. I loved when she hid the
cupid that she broke in the and and she had
to like be like I did it, and I was afraid,
Like that just felt so like just being a person
(10:57):
who doesn't feel like they belong in the place that
they literally are calling home, it feels so And I'm like, Grama,
I definitely thought from the beginning that he killed his wife,
like when they first like the Mysterious Widow. And also
it's a Hitchcock movie, so it's like, okay, there's murder involved. However,
I felt like the way it was written, you just
(11:21):
get so sucked into her point of view that like
end this vision of Rebecca and the jealousy of Rebecca
and everyone loving Rebecca. That like, to me, it like
pulled me into a different narrative of hers that by
the time he actually said it, it wasn't shocking to
(11:42):
me that he killed her. It was shocking to me
that he did not love her, because that felt like
to me, what I thought was, oh, there was like
they loved each other, but they had these big fights,
you know, accident And the first twist, Yeah, the first
twist to me was how when Mrs dan Verse describes
(12:03):
how Rebecca loved no one and I was like, whoa, okay,
so she's like an interesting cold bitch, Like that's fun
and and that was a throw to me. And then
and then that yeah, that it was like how could
he do this to to Mr de Winter Like, yes,
(12:25):
maybe he killed her, but he also like loved her
and regretted it. I'm not saying that makes him a
good person, but that that's the narrative that I had.
And I think that I also kind of clocked early
that he probably murdered her. It was and I think
it was when they were on that drive and he
like stopped on that like cliff and was fucking weird,
(12:45):
and I was like, oh he he did something like
just knowing, yeah, yes, something was wrong, something's wrong? Did
he push a bit off the cliff? Like what's going
on here? Only because we've all talked about it in like,
you know, I've I've seen the trailer for the Netflix adaptation,
and like we know that it's a thriller. We know
(13:06):
that like something mysterious, like spooky, and there's some sort
of like we know this woman is dead. So at
that time, when she's in the car to the cliff
and she even like I love the way she talks
about it, she's like so forgiving when he's acting like
a fucking weirdo. That like I was, I was hooked
in that moment because I'm like, Oh, she's going to
(13:27):
take us on a ride, because she's going to try
to explain away or try to reason all these sort
of like very very real red flags that any of
us would hope I would hope that like we would
be like, oh, that's not a good sign. I will
also say she was very blind, like I think I
was with you, Melissa, where I fully would have believed like,
(13:48):
oh it was if something was weird with the accident,
but like, oh it was a tragic accident of a
flight of passion gone gone wrong, of like whatever. But
I think like the book also establishes really well his
position and um wealth and age and status, and like
she has nothing, Like her choices are literally marry him
(14:10):
or travel as a basically a servant with this insufferable
American woman. So it's like he is like the prince
charming narrative, like that was her only choice. She began
the book being trained to be a companion. I would
not she ends the book as a companion to an
older man who is not took down that. The plot
(14:32):
of this is what if there are the pitches? What
if there is a sequel to Cinderella where the marriage
absolutely sucked, because because it does feel like the whisked
away happily ever after, like she was in poverty and
this rich, handsome man comes and takes her to this
date and then it turns out she feels awful all
the time, and then the husband is a murderer. I thought,
(14:58):
enough of that murder daddy. Let's take a quick break.
So we're back with Popcorn Book Club for My Heart Radio.
I find it so interesting that you all really related
(15:20):
to the narrator, because I did not at all. And
I found her deeply annoying a lot of the time,
And I sorry, Dana, I was like, how are we friends?
Sometimes I also find you deeply annoying, but I love
you anyway. I keep reading the book that is you. Um,
You're welcome, But for me, it was like, why aren't
(15:43):
you saying things? Why aren't you asking for things? Be
more assertive? What's your fucking problem? I understand that it
is the early twentieth century, However, you have way more
agency than you are allowing yourself. I mean, even at
the beginning. And I'm also that person at a restaurant
that will one hundred percent send something act and I'm
not going to be a bit about it, but if
it's not what I ordered, I'm going to tell somebody, Hey,
(16:04):
I'm so sorry. I don't eat nuts. I'm not allergic.
I just don't eat them, but I don't eat nuts.
I specifically asked for this not to have nuts. Could
you bring you back a version that doesn't have nuts?
Thank you so much? Like you are uncommonly self assured.
I don't feel that though I don't insecure a lot
of the time. But I find that like when she
got that cold ham in the beginning and she's just like, oh, well,
(16:28):
I guess it's just a reflection of how the staff
here sees me is lower and lesser, and I'm like,
bitch asked for warm ham. I don't understand what you're doing. Karama.
I have to say, as someone who has known you years,
you are an incredibly self assured person. I remember the
first time I met you, and like freshman it might
have been freshman week or whatever my parents were at college,
(16:51):
and you like extended your hand and you're like, hi,
I'm Karama Aqua, so nice to meet you, Mr and
Mrs Schwartz, and like the most self assured way that.
I was absolutely floored. I was like, oh my god,
she's so confident. Though you should be common we I didn't.
I didn't necessarily relate to her, but I just I
(17:15):
loved her. Growth like she had if we if she
started out being assertive, she wouldn't have ended up with
Daddy Maxim Like like we needed her to be kind
of like diminutive and like kind of like a you know,
in this sub dumb relationship that is being established, we
(17:35):
needed her to be kind of like questioning everything so
that at the end she can finally be like, I
want a new menu. Like for her, that is such
a huge moment of asserting herself, which I thought it
was hilarious, Like I just I thought she was funny,
Like there's something very funny and charming about her little
(17:56):
victories being so small, but for her being key Yeah,
and I mean yeah, I did relate to her. I'm
not I don't think I'm like her now by any means.
But I when I was eighteen, I sure and going
to college, I sure didn't know how to talk to anybody,
(18:17):
and I like sometimes would think I would, but then
I would sit and stew about all the stupid things
I said in my first acting class all night. You know,
I think this was it's really in. It feels like
a really perfect portrait of someone who was deeply insecure
and hasn't come into herself. Um, and someone who suffers
(18:38):
from anxiety. Uh, like just not knowing what to wear
to the fancy dress ball and like, girl, I've been
there so many times. It's like, how far do I
commit to this Halloween party? Do I really go all in?
Of course Max doesn't dress up, that's so typical of
for him, but she perfect Yeah, my god, an impeccable tuxedo.
(19:01):
You navigate this mine field alone? Um yeah. Anyway, I
just feel like, to me, I thought she was very
funny and I wanted her to speak up and that's
why I did feel so satisfying in the end. Um My. Also,
big note was I really want a flower room? Yes?
I think we can all agree upon that everyone deserves
(19:23):
a flower and in the morning room. I want a
morning and library and a flower room to put all
my flowers in. I mean I walked away from there
being like, should I have tea time? When when they
go to London, they're like, oh it's five oh seven,
we should wait for their tea time to be over.
I'm like, like on the dot these Brits. I Um.
(19:47):
The thing that I wanted to point out a little
bit towards what you're saying is like, there is a
very what's the asymmetrical relationship between Max and the second
Mrs de Winter that I think, um, the narrator dozen
very subtle ways, which is what reminded me of Phantom
Thread because the relationship is uneven. But again in the book,
she is a teenager or twenty two? Is she? I
(20:09):
think she's twenty two? They never and specifically say no, no.
That's why I was like, what's she a teenager? What
she was talking out? Lad? I know she was not older?
I think, okay, so nineteen. I think she said she
was nineteen. Yeah, so she's nineteen. He's in his forties.
He is of the landed gentry, and she is an
(20:31):
orphan nobody. So it's like all these factors combined put
her in a very vulnerable position to not speak up
in situations where she absolutely should speak up. Well, but
she has the beginning that she's going she's going to
Lady House and she's going to entertain people, and people
will come down from London to see her, and um,
(20:53):
I don't think she realizes until she gets there that
she's not in a position in life where the going
that that is an insurd fantasy, like imagining I'm going
to build a house on the moon. She just doesn't
know the details of how to manifest that, even if
she has the external trappings. Yeah, and it's clear that,
(21:15):
like Maxim, didn't know how to do that either, Rebecca
make that house. Rebecca was born with a huge amount
of confidence, uh, seemingly giving free reign by Danny, who
raised her and um turned Manderly into this terrific show
palace with beautiful gardens and amazing parties and interesting people.
(21:40):
And all she asked for in return was the freedom
to funk around. They had a very clear arrangement, I
will give you the most beautiful house in the world,
let me funk people in London. Yeah. Yeah, my first cousin. Okay,
really interesting to me because I I had always read
(22:03):
this assuming that Daphne saw herself as the second Mrs
the Winter, because all I knew about the author was
that she was very shy and she ended up buying
the estate that I think is called Mandabilly that inspired man,
So good for her. That's all I knew about her
until I started reading more about her. She was a
(22:23):
bisexual who had lesbian affairs, and also she fought her
first cousin so and wrote about it in her memoirs.
So I did not realize the extent to which the
author maybe saw herself in Rebecca when certainly when I
first read this book. Just to be clear, though, Rebecca
(22:45):
definitely had some sort of sexual experience with Mrs Danver's right.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, that's that's what I thought to think.
So I think Mrs has raised her her mom. Yeah,
I thought she was the mother, like the mother died
early and she raised her. That's mother daughter thing. Yeah.
(23:08):
But also like I think, especially when we watched the version,
the sexual element there, but felt like maybe if they
didn't sleep together, then Danny Danvers wanted to for sure
wanted to. Yes, yeah, yeah, I also just love like
(23:30):
it makes the whole thing makes me really want to
meet Rebecca because she is such a charming person but
also clearly a sociopath, Like like the way she's described
like she's able to reflect back whatever someone is is
she is telling them and is able to like figure
out what people want and give it to them and
has no feeling for anyone. I'm like, oh, there's just
(23:52):
like this is like a textbook sociopath, and I just
think it's so like it doesn't make her, it doesn't
make her villain. It just makes her so interesting to me,
Like she's just like a very successful sociopath. Okay, I
don't know that that's necessarily for them, because we're getting
that whole perspective from maxim shot No, from Danny. Perspective
(24:15):
is maybe partly she was only ever able to love
me because I was in love with her and we
were in love, and she hated all the rest of you,
and that's what was happening, which is like behavior. Yet
I think that the book does make it clear, at
least how I read it, that Rebecca was this fascinating, beautiful,
(24:41):
brilliant sociopath. Like Also, the way that like details about
how she would like talk to people and then talk
about them behind their back was very like that Regina
George of like, oh my god, I love your skirt
and it was my mom's in the eighties. It's not
as far as about defintely like popular mean girl like
(25:02):
for sure for and I and I questioned taste and
coolness because Favel sounds like a piece of ship. Oh yeah,
I fully imagine Favella's Ernie Hammer, like I am very
surprised because she was in the upcoming person because I
just don't imagine was like this beefcake an alcoholic because
(25:26):
he was his first custom and he was like I
was imagining, Oh no, girls have sweet shops and cinemas
would be like very excited by his presence. Oh I
didn't look a sweet shop. I would be excited by
(25:48):
the presence. I think. I think the way they described
his drinking and his like sweaty and that he's like
getting puff be because of all the drinking and smoking.
I just imagine that kind of very classic British character
actor who's just like a little bit blustery all the
(26:10):
time and it's just so angry about everything, tra turgity
and just like now, like I think I got those
two people. I have to say before you get your answer, Karama.
Mine was like very greasy puffy. Colin Paris was like greasy,
(26:32):
like greasy but hot. Okay. I think it should be
Stanley Tucci because I think he can do all of
those things. I think he would be do you guys
watch The Lovely Bones because he was great in The
Lovely Bones. He can play yucky people, but also he's
still very physically attractive, Like I fell in love with
(26:55):
Stanley Tucci when I was eleven and I watched The
Midsummer Night's Dream and he was playing Puck and was like, oh,
Robin good fellow indeed, but but see, I feel like
his Stanley Tucci's attractiveness is in that he looks so
classy and you want him in like a button down
making you a drink where it's like Jack. I imagine
his attractiveness is that he's like kind of seedy and
(27:18):
like handrow you a cigarette could do that, you know. Yeah,
he before he goes on set, let him get a
little hot and like, yeah, I'm for real, for real.
So like I think they can do literally anything. I
didn't understand Armie Hammers casting for me because he and
Lily James are the same age and I think makes it.
(27:44):
And so they're both in their mid thirty which is
which is weird because Hollywood loves casting a very young
woman against a forty year old man, like that's their
favorite thing to do. And they had it like it
was like your guys, yum, yum, here's it's tea time.
He didn't eaties version for Charles Dance Winter and I
(28:08):
think it's really good casting. Um, he's on yeah, yeah,
he just seems really steely and unfeeling, So I don't
I just looked up Jack Fabel who plays him in
the New One, and his name is Sam Riley. I
don't know who he is, but I actually think he
(28:32):
he's right, he's the right blend of everything. He's younger
than he's like a young she's a little he looks
he's like a young good looking guy that looks a
little like his bangs are sweaty, you know, perfect slutty bangs.
I would like sweaty, sweaty, not slutty. Would like to
find a version of Rebecca or Stanley too. She plays
(28:55):
every role. Okay, I would absolutely I would contribute to
that fund, thank you. I would say my ideal cast
is like for Maxim is like a Daniel Craig. Oh, damn,
Daniel Craig now or removed, But Daniel Craig now he's
(29:17):
like fifty. You know, he's like a little I don't
know that he's Do people think he's hot, Yes, they do,
and it's very odd to me. I think he's kind
of weird looking. Yeah, I do too. I don't find
him unattractive, but I am not attracted to him. I'm like, Okay,
your face has all the things in the places, but
like your face is just a face to me. It's
(29:40):
a fine face. It's a face. What Christian bail. Oh,
he can be weird, but I think he's hotter again.
I feel like it needs to look. I also think
that their marriage is unconsummated up until the night before.
I don't think it is because she says like he
has a mother on the simon, Yeah, but does that
(30:03):
does that mean that? Look, I think they're set scene
right before she thinks he's about to go away to prison,
when he's told her all about what happened to Rebecca
confessed the murder, and they talked about how we held
each other as we never held each other before, like
plenty to each other in the night, and it feels
(30:23):
like that's the first time consummate. I think we can
agree that they never had good sex up until that point.
I mean, she's pretty sure she's not pregnant. Whenever people after,
might you be pregnant, She's like, no, that's impossible. I
have a unnamed narrator pitch for the star for the
(30:44):
actress is Jessica Burdon. She was at the end of
the fucking world. She's like, she looks super young, but
she's like eight and and she and she has something
that's like she's very pretty, of course, but she just
looks like she could look very plain if they wanted
(31:06):
it to. Because I feel like that's that was her
insecurity the whole time of how like classic and stunning
Rebecca was and then she couldn't like get her makeup
right ever and felt invisible anyway. And she's also very good,
is very completely beautiful. Yeah, she's thirty five. She like
(31:27):
looks like a stunning woman. The narrator is obsessed with
being I do love the fact that we're like, this
woman's too old, which I mean she is for the
character she is. I just think it's funny that that's
the conversation character. But I think I think it's like
because her naivete is like so fundamental to the character.
(31:49):
But yes, we are. I will I will always argue
for women to be older in movies. Then like it's like, oh,
this this a woman who used to be an Ingnue
two years ago. Now that she's thirty four, is like
the mother of two eighteen year olds, like that's always
what happened, and it's like very disappointing. They have to
(32:12):
get really into vacing that. Just her instagram is just
I'm all about cooking for my family. Now. Yeah, when
you turned thirty, you have to be mommy. Now, Okay,
let's take a brief moment here for an ad break. Okay,
(32:43):
we're back with Popcorn book Club. I wanted to go
back to the question of sex. I I do think
that they had sex over their honeymoon, and he's like,
I think they had the classic vacation they had like
the vacation sex, like the the like and the vacation
love story that when you like get back to your
(33:03):
regular life, everything is not as what it seemed like.
Everything is like you were in bliss in your vacation
in Monte Carlo and Italy and then and then they
never had sex a Mandy, and that's what's they don't have.
They don't have to surprise that they shared a bedroom,
(33:26):
Like I know they had different beds, but I and
the first part of the book, I just imagined her
to have her own corridors because it felt she felt
so isolated to me, didn't they though I thought it
was like a sweet I thought it was I think
it well, but I thought it was like in doubt, nay,
like their attached. Maybe they were like, Oh, we love
(33:47):
each other so much that we're gonna bunk convention and
sleep together every night. M wow. Being in the sounds
exhausting images. Also, all the may it seemed to be
having a lot of fun, Like every time she was
looking at the maids and they were all like having
fun gossiping, and like I was like, this sounds like
(34:08):
a better time. Oh yeah, every time she sees a
middle class Oh yeah, when have a picnic with people
who were vacationing there, she like goes and sees a
family at the beach. That's just like a normal mom
with her children and dad, and they're like having an afternoon.
(34:28):
I just wanted to talk a little bit about like
the pieces that I loved were like basically when it
was all the falling action after the ball and the
constant reveals, and I feel like what I loved about
the reveals, even if you saw the murder coming, was
it like it every time re contextualized everything that you've read,
(34:49):
especially like Mrs Danvers point point of view over and
over again. I feel like she's the most interesting character
in the book to me. Um, just like with ends
with her fucking burning Manderley Down is amazing, but amazing,
you know, just from Mrs Danverse, that really terrifying scene
(35:10):
where she explains that you should be dead and tries
to convince the narrator to kill herself. Yeah, she almost
does it because classic scorn. You just convinced people from
just joking, please don't these are not none of these
(35:31):
And the tricking of the narrator to where that outfit
was so fucking cruel. But then you realize. At first
I was like, that was so cruel to do to her,
and then I realized, oh, she's doing it to him,
like she's doing it to her, but really it's to him.
And then you realize, like, oh, because he killed her
and she knows that like she does, and she can't
(35:55):
do anything about it, and and so it's just like
this unraveling and then the body being found and it
just and and then I mean, I loved the reveal
that was the one I did not see with the doctor.
I thought it was going to be that she was pregnant,
and I think a moment. That's because one and then
I think they think that you're saying it, and then
(36:16):
they're like, and that will see all Maxim's fate because
that's a motive. And I just love that. And every
turn he gets off and I felt myself, even though
it's awful, but I felt myself rooting for him to
get off because I was just on this ride with
the narrator. But then at the end, when Manderley burns down,
I was like, fuck, yes, like it was just such
(36:39):
I I don't know. I love that point. I do
think that the book like that period where you're we're
all like rooting for Maxim to get away away. Okay,
we're not, but the institution of the book is positioning
with the anticipation and the fear of Maxi, this man
(37:00):
who actually did murder his wife, whether he had a
reason or not. You're still not allowed to murder your wife,
even if she taunts you, sorry that she taunted you.
Just not shoot someone. You cannot take a joke. You
literally cannot take a joke with somebody that you have
complete power over. So, like I said, the whole book
(37:23):
is structured like I found a very funny way that
is very true of like the way that the system
looks out for rich white men. Like the policeman knows
he did it, but he's on his side. And even
when Jack is like, no, he did it and you
actually did it, He's like, okay, ha ha, we'll hear
you out because we have to. But everyone involved is
(37:46):
like really hoping we don't have enough evidence that we
have to deal with this because we want Maxim you
give charity. No one wants to hold him responsible for
his actions. They're all actively resisting but look good in
Maxim's life. Everything makes Maxim an interesting Person's Mandardly. It's
(38:06):
what he uses as the big to get the second
Missus de Winter to marry him. That he talks about,
like how you'll love Mandrely and she's seen it on
a postcard and she like knows that everybody thinks as
a status cabulous, that's all Rebecca. Rebecca me that house um,
and I think maybe it is cly. The fact that
(38:27):
I'm not reading this book when I'm sixteen anymore, and
the fact that I am an adult now and we
had to do renovations and I had to on a
very very small level fix up my house the way
Rebecca did. Yeah, Danny should burn that place to the ground.
That place was Rebecca. She did the work. That's why
I made her husband a remotely interesting person. I will
(38:50):
say that matters history. Before Rebecca showed up, I think
it was shit, and the Maxim makes that clear of
like this place is dur the garbage. Rebecca maybe spend
money on it. I never considered that before their furniture,
like they had nice furniture, but it was all in storage.
And Rebecca, yeah, she brought around like the Renaissance of
(39:15):
Manderl like it did have a storied history. It was
just fallen into disrepair. So I feel like he could
have let it continue to fester, but she brought it
back and revived it. And that is what does him
more interesting as opposed to just posting on family legacy.
It does. It's not about the winter. I think it's
(39:38):
a perfect in that way. It's the perfect consequence for
his actions in so it's just like, well, now they're
just two boring people living in a mediocre hotel with
each other's company. And to be clear, I was not
rooting for Maxim to get away with killing his wife.
I think it was just it's the ride that you're
taken on in those scenes where it's like you want
(39:59):
the tension to be released, and at every point they
don't let it. Like you think when he comes back
from the court, he's going to be like I was convicted,
and then he's not, and then Favel comes over and
then that doesn't work, and then you go to the
doctor and then that. So it's just like this this
sense of dread that I felt in that back third
(40:20):
of the book that didn't allow me to put it down,
and that the like in that back half of all
the descriptions of like the Knowing looks like so much
of that last half is just like what's her? Um
Mrs the second Mrs de Winter talking about Frank looking
(40:41):
at her maximum looking at her, not making eye contect,
making like he knows, Like I I love that ship. Yeah,
that scene, it makes so much sense that Hitgecog was like, um,
excuse me, I will take this one furtive yances. I
guess I kind of was rooting for Maxim, like I
(41:02):
find in spite of myself. No no, But then because
like they make Jack seemed like such a near duell
and like you don't want him to have his victory.
He's such a slime bag. Oh my god, he's lover
he's dead because I'm sorry, Jennifer, he was blackmailing. He
didn't like. No, I understand. Can both be bad and
(41:30):
also against each other. That's true. I'm just alcoholic now.
And it's because he sat. The book clearly frames Jack
as the antagonist in this scenario, and because we're in
the second missistant Winter's Head, we are on Max's side.
(41:51):
And then it takes like a pause. You have to
read it and then pause and take a minute to
step back and be Dana again and be like, oh, no,
I mean he did he murdered his wife. Yeah, for me,
so that I think the book, the book brings you
on that ride in her voice and her perspective, and
she is on. She is Maxims ride or die. She
finds out that he murdered someone and does not give
(42:13):
it a moment of critical thought, which is such a
credit to Daphne Right because I was reading, I was
looking up some articles and people she in when it
first came out, was surprised that people thought that this
was a romantic novel, Like it's such a credit to
her writing that she was able to make so many
people kind of lust and also be excited about this
(42:35):
murder man. Murder man, daddy baby girl so excited about
those two. Uh well, a lot of people in this
group have like long term relationships. Um. I have always
thought that if my husband came home and told me
(42:57):
that he murdered someone, I would sigret how to get
him up was the country like like, obviously I would escape.
I would assume that whoever he murdered there was a
good reason. And I wonder if the most people feel
about their partners, and she knows him though you so well,
(43:21):
would ever do that. Maybe that's why I'm the only
single person here. But if somebody I was dating came
home to me and was like, Babe, I killed somebody.
I swear to you it was completely justified. I would
be like, okay, sweetheart, that's great. You go pack the suitcases,
and as soon as they left the room, I would
(43:41):
call nine one one immediately because I am not going
so we could escape. But here, but here's the difference.
I want to say, Jennifer, you and Daniel have known
each other four years and have had an intimate, close
relationship in which you are a partner and teammates in
your life. You know Daniel, and you in your heart
(44:03):
would know Daniel is a I could speak on behalf
of me, is a very gentleman. And if he killed someone,
there would be certain where it's like, I think that
the book make it. But if the book makes very
very clear that they don't. She doesn't know Max UM's
basically strange. That's sorry. And if if it was your
(44:26):
long term partner, okay, and they came back and they
were like, I murdered someone because they and because they
didn't laugh at my joke, I would be like, okay,
I have to I have to. Especially I think if
it was a stranger, if I would be and I've
(44:47):
known Jeremy, you know for a very long time, I'd
be like, all right, but let's figure this out. But
if he was like, so, you know my ex how
she died that was because of me, I'd be like,
all right, I'm so sorry. You're going to jail looking
up as you're saying you're going to turn them in.
(45:07):
You need to make them figure on their side, And
then I'm with you. I am, and the cops immediately
like I don't work with the tops. And I was
still called the top right, God, you're right, this man
is murdered. He might murder again. I do want to
say something, um. So we had all talked about sort
(45:28):
at the beginning of the book, and I would just
like to say that I think that it could have
benefited from another edit. Um. The beginning of chapter three
was where I was like, oh, this book should have
started here. Like, I didn't want it to start with
them in the hotel on the lamb, not on the lamb,
because nobody thinks that he did it, even though he
did it. But um, I wanted it to start with
(45:49):
the line I wonder what my life would be today
if Mrs van Hopper had not been a snob. I
think that that's such an engaging begin I love the
witness or it begins, first of all, because I think
the only two moments of real clarity that this narrators
has are in her dreams. That the first one is
about dreaming about returning to Manderley, and the second one
(46:11):
is in the last chapter where she dreams about Rebecca
coming through her dreams and Rebecca just destroying everything. Um.
And I think those are things that she can't think
about in her waking life, and that's really fascinating. And
I think the next chapter means that we all know
how this plays out, Like we're all just waiting to
see how they go from having this beautiful home in
(46:33):
Cornwall to living in city hotels. And she begins as
a paid companion to an older, unpleasant person, and now
she is a paid companion to an older unpleasant person again,
and it's her husband. And I think part of what
makes it such a mystery is how she gets back
to that place. I'm not a big fan at the end,
(46:56):
at the beginning most of the time. That's that's I
think that's a personal thing for me. Also hate very
vivid descriptions of Flora, and that's like a lot of
the first two chapters. I think we've talked about that before.
I'm like, I don't want to hear about plants. I
don't want to hear about there's a lot of flower talks.
We gotta we got to know all about the as Ailiens,
(47:19):
which are blood red at first but then afterward come
in blue. Yeah again, all her there. Yeah. I love
that You're I love Jennifer, that you're giving You're You're
(47:40):
the Danvers of this. I will say that that convicting
her to wear the costume that Rebecca Laura to her
last ball is a crazy, I mean, amazing prank move
like it's so it's evil genius, Like it is so
evil and and I just wanted. I was like shouting
in my like the trap don't do? Why why do
(48:03):
you trust me? I couldn't so so naive, but I
do look like I crom I agree. Sometimes I don't
like knowing the ending at the beginning, like I really
try to avoid spoilers and things, but I think that
to me the way, like every now and then she
would like drop in like, uh, you know, the first
(48:24):
and last my first and last fancy dress ball. Uh,
you know, just like little things of reminding you of
the dread. I feel like this book was so much
dread and I love that ship, and I think there's something.
If there wasn't that I would be like I don't
care about the rhododendrons, like I don't because I know
there's a body coming. I know there's gonna be a
(48:47):
body human being. When I'm reading something where I and
I think it's taking too long to get to the murder,
like I recently was reading Heather Wells Mystery series and
I think it's the fourth book. In it, you don't
get to the body until like page fifty, and I
kept texting people. I was like, I'm reading the next
(49:09):
Heather Wells book and there's no one dead yet, and
I'm just like, I'm on page fifteen. Where is the
dead body? Where it at? Give me the body? I
want the death, give me the murder. And I'm like,
it's a murder mystery, I want the murder. This is
a very atmospheric novel. It's like it's everything is in
subtle glances and the like arranging flowers and then like
(49:33):
what time is t again? Like little social conventions. That's
our show for the week. Thank you so much for listening.
I'm Danis Schwartz and you can find me on Twitter
at Danish Schwartz with three z s. You can follow
Jennifer Wright at jen Ashley Right, Karama down Qua is
at Karama Drama, Melissa Hunter is at Melissa f t
(49:57):
W and Tan Tran is smart enough to have and
off Twitter, but she is on Insta at Hank Tina.
Our executive producer is Christopher Hessiotis and we're produced and
edited by Mike John's Special thanks to David Wasserman. Next week,
after we make sure to print up a bunch of
give Me the Murder t shirts thank you for EMA,
we will continue our conversation about Rebecca before we jump
(50:19):
into the screen time portion of this book and do
the nineteen forties Alfred Hitchcock adaptation and then the Army
Hammer Lily James adaptation. Coming to Netflix. Popcorn book Club
is a production of I Heart Radio.
Halfy October Popcorn Book Club listeners. We've covered horror and
monsters and cults of scary white people a few weeks
ago with our discussion of love Craft Country, and now
we're covering the other side of the spooky season with
the gothic thriller Rebecca by Daphne Demurier Moyer. Oh God,
my French. Soon to be a film on Netflix. Not
(00:26):
goth in the sense of dressing and all black and
listening to Bauhaus, but gothic like gothic romance and death,
you know. Fun. She does not care at all that
her husband committed cold murder. She's like, but he hated her.
He killed her because he hated her. Who I was.
I was hooked in that moment because I'm like, Oh,
she's going to take us on a ride, because she's
(00:47):
going to try to explain away or try to reason
all these very very real red flags. Welcome back to
Popcorn Book Club. I am Danis Schwartz, joined as always
by Karamadanqua, Jennifer Wright and Melissa Hunter and Tian tram
Hi everyone. I am so so excited that we're talking
about the book Rebecca. I had never read it and
(01:09):
I feel like once maybe in my childhood, I had
started the prologue and I got like two pages in
and I was like, man and put it down. And
once you sort of get over the hump of like
the first like pages, this book really takes off. Tim.
What was your experience. I I absolutely loved it, kind
(01:30):
of the same though I was like at first, I
was thinking to myself, I can't wait for this book
to pick up. Everyone's been talking about it. And then
when it picks up, Oh baby, it picks up, and
I thoroughly enjoyed it. All the characters are really fleshed
out and funny, funny, and the narrator is I don't
know about you all, but it's hilarious to me, so
(01:51):
so funny to me. Um. So I'm like super excited
to watch all the adaptations too, because I like, really
hope that they stay true to some of the quirks
and are like personality traits of everyone. Because I really
really loved it. Uh, Jennifer, you had read this book
before and you were you were vouching for it for us.
(02:12):
What is your experience with Rebecca? It was really interesting
because I read this when I was a teenager, and
it was around the same time I was reading books
like Janier and was wearing plights, and this really fits
into that Gothic romance category. And I feel like I
had a very different experience with it now as an
(02:33):
adult then um, when I felt when I was a teenager,
I definitely had a lot more simply for Rebecca. Now
as an adult, I still think the second Mrs de Winter,
who has no name, is incredibly funny and likable. Um,
I think I had a different perspective on her loyalty
to Maxim than I do when I was a sixteen
(02:56):
year old girl. So we can get into that as
discuss it, I will say she is a ride or die. Yeah, Karama,
you as you made before we start recording, you mentioned
that you did not finish this book. Not you care
to elaborate. Well, first of all, I would just like
(03:17):
to start by saying I know that I'm going to
start getting a reputation as the person that doesn't finish
the book, but I actually so. I was very worry
about reading it. I was like, this feels boring. I
don't want to read this, and then everybody was like
it picks up in and I was like Okay, I
(03:38):
will read it. And I got more than that far
and I just felt like it never picked up for me,
and like, I got almost two hundred pages in before
I was like, how much time am I going to
invest in something that is genuinely difficult for me to enjoy?
And I kind of wanted to have a discussion at
(04:01):
least at some point during this conversation about when it's
okay to sort of abandon a book, because I was like, Oh,
I really really put in the effort, and I've gotten
to the point where people are like, this is where
it really starts. And I do think that there are
good things about it. I don't think that it is
an irredeemable book, and I just I also have my
own biases. I don't like romantic Gothic literature. I don't
(04:22):
I didn't like Wuthering Heights, I never read gene Air.
I was just like, no, this style is not for me.
And so I found that revulsion and like sort of
pushing against it again. Reading this book, I was like,
oh God, I really don't enjoy anything about this. But
I'm really excited to watch it as a film because
I think that the core plot elements really will lend
(04:43):
themselves to an exciting, thrilling viewing experience. I will say
I want to go on record as saying I think
if you're not enjoying a book, you can always abandon it.
They're like, if you give a book a fair chance,
life is too short. There's no there's so many good
books in the world. It's I feel like it's kind
of like watching the first three episodes of a TV
(05:05):
show and if it doesn't really like everyone has a
limit of like how far you commit to a TV show?
Why not for a book to you know? So, Melissa,
what was your response to Rebecca? Oh? God, I loved it.
I mean I had I did have the same experience
in the beginning where I felt it was very slow.
(05:25):
I was reading like I couldn't read it at night
because I kept on falling asleep within a page. Um
And it reminded me of high school where I was like,
I have to read this book. But then. But but
I do think on the flip side of have being
so happy we are doing this podcast is like normal
Melissa would just have given up at that point. But
(05:47):
because we are doing this podcast, and I my main
motivation is not being publicly shamed. Um, I I'm a
very I'm very good student in that way, like I
love deadlines to other people. I pushed through and I
think it was around like like right after she went
to Manderley when I was just like when Mrs Danvers
(06:10):
came in and everything that I was just like, oh,
there's something going on and I don't quite know what
it is. And then just like the building tension was
so much for me, and I just loved the hero
so much and was so like in on this ride
with her that I loved it. And so no, no, no, no, no, okay, yeah,
(06:38):
sorry the narrator, No, that would have been interesting. No
judgment has been fun. We just would have talked about it. Jen.
The listeners can't see your face, but I can't. There
was judgment there. Yeah. I love him every you know.
He just reminds me of my fiance. I want. I
(07:00):
want a boy who will bring me to his house
and then never talk to me like a dog. Yeah, baby,
like three things on a platter, foods. I'm just like,
I had a lot of problem with the food waste. Yeah,
so much food. She never and she was too insecured
(07:21):
at I also very much related she there's so much
going around. Yeah, I feel like I think, Danny, you're
saying too. Like I just related so hard to her,
like I was hurt eighteen of like just having these
(07:43):
imagined conversations of what people are saying, with the horrible
things people are saying about me and like these I
just called it, like Rebecca the room Nation cycle because
it just felt like she was just this constant, circular,
like reaffirming of these beliefs that she was so distracted
(08:03):
by that she didn't notice that her she finally realized,
like her sticking point is he never loved her. Oh
my god, he never loved her. Yeah, it's like the best,
the best news ever that he killed her. It's that's
the writer is so funny. She does not care at
(08:26):
all that her husband committed She's like, but he hated her.
He killed her because he hated her. It was very
obvious to me that he killed her, Like I clocked
that very early on, and I'm like, wait, okay, so
you don't realize that this dude straight marked his ex wife,
(08:47):
Like you don't know that lady, Like I before they left,
what was the kipping point for you? Because I absolutely
did not know that. I remember that time I read it.
It came as a real shocked No I knew, and
I never read this book. I didn't know anything about
the movie. I didn't know it existed until Jenn suggested
(09:08):
we read it. So I was reading it and I
was I remember I was like, on page seventy five
or something, I was like, Oh, this motherfucker killed his wife.
I don't remember the exact moment. I think it was, um.
I think it was when Beatrice first came about. I
(09:29):
feel like she kind of knew. She didn't know for sure,
but she was like, oh, well, I hope you guys
are happy, and I was like, oh, okay, with everything
else that's been leading up to this, and the way
that it was talking about Robecca and the way he's like,
I wish you wish you could bottle your memories and
I wish that I never had to think of them again.
And I'm like, oh, she murdered her. Yeah, and he
(09:52):
tutor twice every year, he uncontrollably exactly, So I he
was about the Beatrice visit where I was like, oh, okay,
he killed her. And I think for me also realizing
that early on it didn't make the book interesting to
read because I'm think it's taking so long to get
to the murder. I will say what I found very
(10:12):
relatable is that as someone who uh does not know
how to ask for things or or advocate for myself,
it was very relatable. As we were mentioning with like
the food waste the second Mrs de Winter clocks like
there is a ton of food waste in this house,
and it takes the full arc of the book for
her to be able to be like, fucking reuse the
same food, you assholes. But me, I'm like, I do
(10:36):
not ask for anything, like I have like a manager,
and I'm always like, can I ask her to I
don't want to send this thing to her. I don't
want to bother her. And my friends had to be like,
she works for you. I loved when she hid the
cupid that she broke in the and and she had
to like be like I did it, and I was afraid,
Like that just felt so like just being a person
(10:57):
who doesn't feel like they belong in the place that
they literally are calling home, it feels so And I'm like, Grama,
I definitely thought from the beginning that he killed his wife,
like when they first like the Mysterious Widow. And also
it's a Hitchcock movie, so it's like, okay, there's murder involved. However,
I felt like the way it was written, you just
(11:21):
get so sucked into her point of view that like
end this vision of Rebecca and the jealousy of Rebecca
and everyone loving Rebecca. That like, to me, it like
pulled me into a different narrative of hers that by
the time he actually said it, it wasn't shocking to
(11:42):
me that he killed her. It was shocking to me
that he did not love her, because that felt like
to me, what I thought was, oh, there was like
they loved each other, but they had these big fights,
you know, accident And the first twist, Yeah, the first
twist to me was how when Mrs dan Verse describes
(12:03):
how Rebecca loved no one and I was like, whoa, okay,
so she's like an interesting cold bitch, Like that's fun
and and that was a throw to me. And then
and then that yeah, that it was like how could
he do this to to Mr de Winter Like, yes,
(12:25):
maybe he killed her, but he also like loved her
and regretted it. I'm not saying that makes him a
good person, but that that's the narrative that I had.
And I think that I also kind of clocked early
that he probably murdered her. It was and I think
it was when they were on that drive and he
like stopped on that like cliff and was fucking weird,
(12:45):
and I was like, oh he he did something like
just knowing, yeah, yes, something was wrong, something's wrong? Did
he push a bit off the cliff? Like what's going
on here? Only because we've all talked about it in like,
you know, I've I've seen the trailer for the Netflix adaptation,
and like we know that it's a thriller. We know
(13:06):
that like something mysterious, like spooky, and there's some sort
of like we know this woman is dead. So at
that time, when she's in the car to the cliff
and she even like I love the way she talks
about it, she's like so forgiving when he's acting like
a fucking weirdo. That like I was, I was hooked
in that moment because I'm like, Oh, she's going to
(13:27):
take us on a ride, because she's going to try
to explain away or try to reason all these sort
of like very very real red flags that any of
us would hope I would hope that like we would
be like, oh, that's not a good sign. I will
also say she was very blind, like I think I
was with you, Melissa, where I fully would have believed like,
(13:48):
oh it was if something was weird with the accident,
but like, oh it was a tragic accident of a
flight of passion gone gone wrong, of like whatever. But
I think like the book also establishes really well his
position and um wealth and age and status, and like
she has nothing, Like her choices are literally marry him
(14:10):
or travel as a basically a servant with this insufferable
American woman. So it's like he is like the prince
charming narrative, like that was her only choice. She began
the book being trained to be a companion. I would
not she ends the book as a companion to an
older man who is not took down that. The plot
(14:32):
of this is what if there are the pitches? What
if there is a sequel to Cinderella where the marriage
absolutely sucked, because because it does feel like the whisked
away happily ever after, like she was in poverty and
this rich, handsome man comes and takes her to this
date and then it turns out she feels awful all
the time, and then the husband is a murderer. I thought,
(14:58):
enough of that murder daddy. Let's take a quick break.
So we're back with Popcorn Book Club for My Heart Radio.
I find it so interesting that you all really related
(15:20):
to the narrator, because I did not at all. And
I found her deeply annoying a lot of the time,
And I sorry, Dana, I was like, how are we friends?
Sometimes I also find you deeply annoying, but I love
you anyway. I keep reading the book that is you. Um,
You're welcome, But for me, it was like, why aren't
(15:43):
you saying things? Why aren't you asking for things? Be
more assertive? What's your fucking problem? I understand that it
is the early twentieth century, However, you have way more
agency than you are allowing yourself. I mean, even at
the beginning. And I'm also that person at a restaurant
that will one hundred percent send something act and I'm
not going to be a bit about it, but if
it's not what I ordered, I'm going to tell somebody, Hey,
(16:04):
I'm so sorry. I don't eat nuts. I'm not allergic.
I just don't eat them, but I don't eat nuts.
I specifically asked for this not to have nuts. Could
you bring you back a version that doesn't have nuts?
Thank you so much? Like you are uncommonly self assured.
I don't feel that though I don't insecure a lot
of the time. But I find that like when she
got that cold ham in the beginning and she's just like, oh, well,
(16:28):
I guess it's just a reflection of how the staff
here sees me is lower and lesser, and I'm like,
bitch asked for warm ham. I don't understand what you're doing. Karama.
I have to say, as someone who has known you years,
you are an incredibly self assured person. I remember the
first time I met you, and like freshman it might
have been freshman week or whatever my parents were at college,
(16:51):
and you like extended your hand and you're like, hi,
I'm Karama Aqua, so nice to meet you, Mr and
Mrs Schwartz, and like the most self assured way that.
I was absolutely floored. I was like, oh my god,
she's so confident. Though you should be common we I didn't.
I didn't necessarily relate to her, but I just I
(17:15):
loved her. Growth like she had if we if she
started out being assertive, she wouldn't have ended up with
Daddy Maxim Like like we needed her to be kind
of like diminutive and like kind of like a you know,
in this sub dumb relationship that is being established, we
(17:35):
needed her to be kind of like questioning everything so
that at the end she can finally be like, I
want a new menu. Like for her, that is such
a huge moment of asserting herself, which I thought it
was hilarious, Like I just I thought she was funny,
Like there's something very funny and charming about her little
(17:56):
victories being so small, but for her being key Yeah,
and I mean yeah, I did relate to her. I'm
not I don't think I'm like her now by any means.
But I when I was eighteen, I sure and going
to college, I sure didn't know how to talk to anybody,
(18:17):
and I like sometimes would think I would, but then
I would sit and stew about all the stupid things
I said in my first acting class all night. You know,
I think this was it's really in. It feels like
a really perfect portrait of someone who was deeply insecure
and hasn't come into herself. Um, and someone who suffers
(18:38):
from anxiety. Uh, like just not knowing what to wear
to the fancy dress ball and like, girl, I've been
there so many times. It's like, how far do I
commit to this Halloween party? Do I really go all in?
Of course Max doesn't dress up, that's so typical of
for him, but she perfect Yeah, my god, an impeccable tuxedo.
(19:01):
You navigate this mine field alone? Um yeah. Anyway, I
just feel like, to me, I thought she was very
funny and I wanted her to speak up and that's
why I did feel so satisfying in the end. Um My. Also,
big note was I really want a flower room? Yes?
I think we can all agree upon that everyone deserves
(19:23):
a flower and in the morning room. I want a
morning and library and a flower room to put all
my flowers in. I mean I walked away from there
being like, should I have tea time? When when they
go to London, they're like, oh it's five oh seven,
we should wait for their tea time to be over.
I'm like, like on the dot these Brits. I Um.
(19:47):
The thing that I wanted to point out a little
bit towards what you're saying is like, there is a
very what's the asymmetrical relationship between Max and the second
Mrs de Winter that I think, um, the narrator dozen
very subtle ways, which is what reminded me of Phantom
Thread because the relationship is uneven. But again in the book,
she is a teenager or twenty two? Is she? I
(20:09):
think she's twenty two? They never and specifically say no, no.
That's why I was like, what's she a teenager? What
she was talking out? Lad? I know she was not older?
I think, okay, so nineteen. I think she said she
was nineteen. Yeah, so she's nineteen. He's in his forties.
He is of the landed gentry, and she is an
(20:31):
orphan nobody. So it's like all these factors combined put
her in a very vulnerable position to not speak up
in situations where she absolutely should speak up. Well, but
she has the beginning that she's going she's going to
Lady House and she's going to entertain people, and people
will come down from London to see her, and um,
(20:53):
I don't think she realizes until she gets there that
she's not in a position in life where the going
that that is an insurd fantasy, like imagining I'm going
to build a house on the moon. She just doesn't
know the details of how to manifest that, even if
she has the external trappings. Yeah, and it's clear that,
(21:15):
like Maxim, didn't know how to do that either, Rebecca
make that house. Rebecca was born with a huge amount
of confidence, uh, seemingly giving free reign by Danny, who
raised her and um turned Manderly into this terrific show
palace with beautiful gardens and amazing parties and interesting people.
(21:40):
And all she asked for in return was the freedom
to funk around. They had a very clear arrangement, I
will give you the most beautiful house in the world,
let me funk people in London. Yeah. Yeah, my first cousin. Okay,
really interesting to me because I I had always read
(22:03):
this assuming that Daphne saw herself as the second Mrs
the Winter, because all I knew about the author was
that she was very shy and she ended up buying
the estate that I think is called Mandabilly that inspired man,
So good for her. That's all I knew about her
until I started reading more about her. She was a
(22:23):
bisexual who had lesbian affairs, and also she fought her
first cousin so and wrote about it in her memoirs.
So I did not realize the extent to which the
author maybe saw herself in Rebecca when certainly when I
first read this book. Just to be clear, though, Rebecca
(22:45):
definitely had some sort of sexual experience with Mrs Danver's right.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, that's that's what I thought to think.
So I think Mrs has raised her her mom. Yeah,
I thought she was the mother, like the mother died
early and she raised her. That's mother daughter thing. Yeah.
(23:08):
But also like I think, especially when we watched the version,
the sexual element there, but felt like maybe if they
didn't sleep together, then Danny Danvers wanted to for sure
wanted to. Yes, yeah, yeah, I also just love like
(23:30):
it makes the whole thing makes me really want to
meet Rebecca because she is such a charming person but
also clearly a sociopath, Like like the way she's described
like she's able to reflect back whatever someone is is
she is telling them and is able to like figure
out what people want and give it to them and
has no feeling for anyone. I'm like, oh, there's just
(23:52):
like this is like a textbook sociopath, and I just
think it's so like it doesn't make her, it doesn't
make her villain. It just makes her so interesting to me,
Like she's just like a very successful sociopath. Okay, I
don't know that that's necessarily for them, because we're getting
that whole perspective from maxim shot No, from Danny. Perspective
(24:15):
is maybe partly she was only ever able to love
me because I was in love with her and we
were in love, and she hated all the rest of you,
and that's what was happening, which is like behavior. Yet
I think that the book does make it clear, at
least how I read it, that Rebecca was this fascinating, beautiful,
(24:41):
brilliant sociopath. Like Also, the way that like details about
how she would like talk to people and then talk
about them behind their back was very like that Regina
George of like, oh my god, I love your skirt
and it was my mom's in the eighties. It's not
as far as about defintely like popular mean girl like
(25:02):
for sure for and I and I questioned taste and
coolness because Favel sounds like a piece of ship. Oh yeah,
I fully imagine Favella's Ernie Hammer, like I am very
surprised because she was in the upcoming person because I
just don't imagine was like this beefcake an alcoholic because
(25:26):
he was his first custom and he was like I
was imagining, Oh no, girls have sweet shops and cinemas
would be like very excited by his presence. Oh I
didn't look a sweet shop. I would be excited by
(25:48):
the presence. I think. I think the way they described
his drinking and his like sweaty and that he's like
getting puff be because of all the drinking and smoking.
I just imagine that kind of very classic British character
actor who's just like a little bit blustery all the
(26:10):
time and it's just so angry about everything, tra turgity
and just like now, like I think I got those
two people. I have to say before you get your answer, Karama.
Mine was like very greasy puffy. Colin Paris was like greasy,
(26:32):
like greasy but hot. Okay. I think it should be
Stanley Tucci because I think he can do all of
those things. I think he would be do you guys
watch The Lovely Bones because he was great in The
Lovely Bones. He can play yucky people, but also he's
still very physically attractive, Like I fell in love with
(26:55):
Stanley Tucci when I was eleven and I watched The
Midsummer Night's Dream and he was playing Puck and was like, oh,
Robin good fellow indeed, but but see, I feel like
his Stanley Tucci's attractiveness is in that he looks so
classy and you want him in like a button down
making you a drink where it's like Jack. I imagine
his attractiveness is that he's like kind of seedy and
(27:18):
like handrow you a cigarette could do that, you know. Yeah,
he before he goes on set, let him get a
little hot and like, yeah, I'm for real, for real.
So like I think they can do literally anything. I
didn't understand Armie Hammers casting for me because he and
Lily James are the same age and I think makes it.
(27:44):
And so they're both in their mid thirty which is
which is weird because Hollywood loves casting a very young
woman against a forty year old man, like that's their
favorite thing to do. And they had it like it
was like your guys, yum, yum, here's it's tea time.
He didn't eaties version for Charles Dance Winter and I
(28:08):
think it's really good casting. Um, he's on yeah, yeah,
he just seems really steely and unfeeling, So I don't
I just looked up Jack Fabel who plays him in
the New One, and his name is Sam Riley. I
don't know who he is, but I actually think he
(28:32):
he's right, he's the right blend of everything. He's younger
than he's like a young she's a little he looks
he's like a young good looking guy that looks a
little like his bangs are sweaty, you know, perfect slutty bangs.
I would like sweaty, sweaty, not slutty. Would like to
find a version of Rebecca or Stanley too. She plays
(28:55):
every role. Okay, I would absolutely I would contribute to
that fund, thank you. I would say my ideal cast
is like for Maxim is like a Daniel Craig. Oh, damn,
Daniel Craig now or removed, But Daniel Craig now he's
(29:17):
like fifty. You know, he's like a little I don't
know that he's Do people think he's hot, Yes, they do,
and it's very odd to me. I think he's kind
of weird looking. Yeah, I do too. I don't find
him unattractive, but I am not attracted to him. I'm like, Okay,
your face has all the things in the places, but
like your face is just a face to me. It's
(29:40):
a fine face. It's a face. What Christian bail. Oh,
he can be weird, but I think he's hotter again.
I feel like it needs to look. I also think
that their marriage is unconsummated up until the night before.
I don't think it is because she says like he
has a mother on the simon, Yeah, but does that
(30:03):
does that mean that? Look, I think they're set scene
right before she thinks he's about to go away to prison,
when he's told her all about what happened to Rebecca
confessed the murder, and they talked about how we held
each other as we never held each other before, like
plenty to each other in the night, and it feels
(30:23):
like that's the first time consummate. I think we can
agree that they never had good sex up until that point.
I mean, she's pretty sure she's not pregnant. Whenever people after,
might you be pregnant, She's like, no, that's impossible. I
have a unnamed narrator pitch for the star for the
(30:44):
actress is Jessica Burdon. She was at the end of
the fucking world. She's like, she looks super young, but
she's like eight and and she and she has something
that's like she's very pretty, of course, but she just
looks like she could look very plain if they wanted
(31:06):
it to. Because I feel like that's that was her
insecurity the whole time of how like classic and stunning
Rebecca was and then she couldn't like get her makeup
right ever and felt invisible anyway. And she's also very good,
is very completely beautiful. Yeah, she's thirty five. She like
(31:27):
looks like a stunning woman. The narrator is obsessed with
being I do love the fact that we're like, this
woman's too old, which I mean she is for the
character she is. I just think it's funny that that's
the conversation character. But I think I think it's like
because her naivete is like so fundamental to the character.
(31:49):
But yes, we are. I will I will always argue
for women to be older in movies. Then like it's like, oh,
this this a woman who used to be an Ingnue
two years ago. Now that she's thirty four, is like
the mother of two eighteen year olds, like that's always
what happened, and it's like very disappointing. They have to
(32:12):
get really into vacing that. Just her instagram is just
I'm all about cooking for my family. Now. Yeah, when
you turned thirty, you have to be mommy. Now, Okay,
let's take a brief moment here for an ad break. Okay,
(32:43):
we're back with Popcorn book Club. I wanted to go
back to the question of sex. I I do think
that they had sex over their honeymoon, and he's like,
I think they had the classic vacation they had like
the vacation sex, like the the like and the vacation
love story that when you like get back to your
(33:03):
regular life, everything is not as what it seemed like.
Everything is like you were in bliss in your vacation
in Monte Carlo and Italy and then and then they
never had sex a Mandy, and that's what's they don't have.
They don't have to surprise that they shared a bedroom,
(33:26):
Like I know they had different beds, but I and
the first part of the book, I just imagined her
to have her own corridors because it felt she felt
so isolated to me, didn't they though I thought it
was like a sweet I thought it was I think
it well, but I thought it was like in doubt, nay,
like their attached. Maybe they were like, Oh, we love
(33:47):
each other so much that we're gonna bunk convention and
sleep together every night. M wow. Being in the sounds
exhausting images. Also, all the may it seemed to be
having a lot of fun, Like every time she was
looking at the maids and they were all like having
fun gossiping, and like I was like, this sounds like
(34:08):
a better time. Oh yeah, every time she sees a
middle class Oh yeah, when have a picnic with people
who were vacationing there, she like goes and sees a
family at the beach. That's just like a normal mom
with her children and dad, and they're like having an afternoon.
(34:28):
I just wanted to talk a little bit about like
the pieces that I loved were like basically when it
was all the falling action after the ball and the
constant reveals, and I feel like what I loved about
the reveals, even if you saw the murder coming, was
it like it every time re contextualized everything that you've read,
(34:49):
especially like Mrs Danvers point point of view over and
over again. I feel like she's the most interesting character
in the book to me. Um, just like with ends
with her fucking burning Manderley Down is amazing, but amazing,
you know, just from Mrs Danverse, that really terrifying scene
(35:10):
where she explains that you should be dead and tries
to convince the narrator to kill herself. Yeah, she almost
does it because classic scorn. You just convinced people from
just joking, please don't these are not none of these
(35:31):
And the tricking of the narrator to where that outfit
was so fucking cruel. But then you realize. At first
I was like, that was so cruel to do to her,
and then I realized, oh, she's doing it to him,
like she's doing it to her, but really it's to him.
And then you realize, like, oh, because he killed her
and she knows that like she does, and she can't
(35:55):
do anything about it, and and so it's just like
this unraveling and then the body being found and it
just and and then I mean, I loved the reveal
that was the one I did not see with the doctor.
I thought it was going to be that she was pregnant,
and I think a moment. That's because one and then
I think they think that you're saying it, and then
(36:16):
they're like, and that will see all Maxim's fate because
that's a motive. And I just love that. And every
turn he gets off and I felt myself, even though
it's awful, but I felt myself rooting for him to
get off because I was just on this ride with
the narrator. But then at the end, when Manderley burns down,
I was like, fuck, yes, like it was just such
(36:39):
I I don't know. I love that point. I do
think that the book like that period where you're we're
all like rooting for Maxim to get away away. Okay,
we're not, but the institution of the book is positioning
with the anticipation and the fear of Maxi, this man
(37:00):
who actually did murder his wife, whether he had a
reason or not. You're still not allowed to murder your wife,
even if she taunts you, sorry that she taunted you.
Just not shoot someone. You cannot take a joke. You
literally cannot take a joke with somebody that you have
complete power over. So, like I said, the whole book
(37:23):
is structured like I found a very funny way that
is very true of like the way that the system
looks out for rich white men. Like the policeman knows
he did it, but he's on his side. And even
when Jack is like, no, he did it and you
actually did it, He's like, okay, ha ha, we'll hear
you out because we have to. But everyone involved is
(37:46):
like really hoping we don't have enough evidence that we
have to deal with this because we want Maxim you
give charity. No one wants to hold him responsible for
his actions. They're all actively resisting but look good in
Maxim's life. Everything makes Maxim an interesting Person's Mandardly. It's
(38:06):
what he uses as the big to get the second
Missus de Winter to marry him. That he talks about,
like how you'll love Mandrely and she's seen it on
a postcard and she like knows that everybody thinks as
a status cabulous, that's all Rebecca. Rebecca me that house um,
and I think maybe it is cly. The fact that
(38:27):
I'm not reading this book when I'm sixteen anymore, and
the fact that I am an adult now and we
had to do renovations and I had to on a
very very small level fix up my house the way
Rebecca did. Yeah, Danny should burn that place to the ground.
That place was Rebecca. She did the work. That's why
I made her husband a remotely interesting person. I will
(38:50):
say that matters history. Before Rebecca showed up, I think
it was shit, and the Maxim makes that clear of
like this place is dur the garbage. Rebecca maybe spend
money on it. I never considered that before their furniture,
like they had nice furniture, but it was all in storage.
And Rebecca, yeah, she brought around like the Renaissance of
(39:15):
Manderl like it did have a storied history. It was
just fallen into disrepair. So I feel like he could
have let it continue to fester, but she brought it
back and revived it. And that is what does him
more interesting as opposed to just posting on family legacy.
It does. It's not about the winter. I think it's
(39:38):
a perfect in that way. It's the perfect consequence for
his actions in so it's just like, well, now they're
just two boring people living in a mediocre hotel with
each other's company. And to be clear, I was not
rooting for Maxim to get away with killing his wife.
I think it was just it's the ride that you're
taken on in those scenes where it's like you want
(39:59):
the tension to be released, and at every point they
don't let it. Like you think when he comes back
from the court, he's going to be like I was convicted,
and then he's not, and then Favel comes over and
then that doesn't work, and then you go to the
doctor and then that. So it's just like this this
sense of dread that I felt in that back third
(40:20):
of the book that didn't allow me to put it down,
and that the like in that back half of all
the descriptions of like the Knowing looks like so much
of that last half is just like what's her? Um
Mrs the second Mrs de Winter talking about Frank looking
(40:41):
at her maximum looking at her, not making eye contect,
making like he knows, Like I I love that ship. Yeah,
that scene, it makes so much sense that Hitgecog was like, um,
excuse me, I will take this one furtive yances. I
guess I kind of was rooting for Maxim, like I
(41:02):
find in spite of myself. No no, But then because
like they make Jack seemed like such a near duell
and like you don't want him to have his victory.
He's such a slime bag. Oh my god, he's lover
he's dead because I'm sorry, Jennifer, he was blackmailing. He
didn't like. No, I understand. Can both be bad and
(41:30):
also against each other. That's true. I'm just alcoholic now.
And it's because he sat. The book clearly frames Jack
as the antagonist in this scenario, and because we're in
the second missistant Winter's Head, we are on Max's side.
(41:51):
And then it takes like a pause. You have to
read it and then pause and take a minute to
step back and be Dana again and be like, oh, no,
I mean he did he murdered his wife. Yeah, for me,
so that I think the book, the book brings you
on that ride in her voice and her perspective, and
she is on. She is Maxims ride or die. She
finds out that he murdered someone and does not give
(42:13):
it a moment of critical thought, which is such a
credit to Daphne Right because I was reading, I was
looking up some articles and people she in when it
first came out, was surprised that people thought that this
was a romantic novel, Like it's such a credit to
her writing that she was able to make so many
people kind of lust and also be excited about this
(42:35):
murder man. Murder man, daddy baby girl so excited about
those two. Uh well, a lot of people in this
group have like long term relationships. Um. I have always
thought that if my husband came home and told me
(42:57):
that he murdered someone, I would sigret how to get
him up was the country like like, obviously I would escape.
I would assume that whoever he murdered there was a
good reason. And I wonder if the most people feel
about their partners, and she knows him though you so well,
(43:21):
would ever do that. Maybe that's why I'm the only
single person here. But if somebody I was dating came
home to me and was like, Babe, I killed somebody.
I swear to you it was completely justified. I would
be like, okay, sweetheart, that's great. You go pack the suitcases,
and as soon as they left the room, I would
(43:41):
call nine one one immediately because I am not going
so we could escape. But here, but here's the difference.
I want to say, Jennifer, you and Daniel have known
each other four years and have had an intimate, close
relationship in which you are a partner and teammates in
your life. You know Daniel, and you in your heart
(44:03):
would know Daniel is a I could speak on behalf
of me, is a very gentleman. And if he killed someone,
there would be certain where it's like, I think that
the book make it. But if the book makes very
very clear that they don't. She doesn't know Max UM's
basically strange. That's sorry. And if if it was your
(44:26):
long term partner, okay, and they came back and they
were like, I murdered someone because they and because they
didn't laugh at my joke, I would be like, okay,
I have to I have to. Especially I think if
it was a stranger, if I would be and I've
(44:47):
known Jeremy, you know for a very long time, I'd
be like, all right, but let's figure this out. But
if he was like, so, you know my ex how
she died that was because of me, I'd be like,
all right, I'm so sorry. You're going to jail looking
up as you're saying you're going to turn them in.
(45:07):
You need to make them figure on their side, And
then I'm with you. I am, and the cops immediately
like I don't work with the tops. And I was
still called the top right, God, you're right, this man
is murdered. He might murder again. I do want to
say something, um. So we had all talked about sort
(45:28):
at the beginning of the book, and I would just
like to say that I think that it could have
benefited from another edit. Um. The beginning of chapter three
was where I was like, oh, this book should have
started here. Like, I didn't want it to start with
them in the hotel on the lamb, not on the lamb,
because nobody thinks that he did it, even though he
did it. But um, I wanted it to start with
(45:49):
the line I wonder what my life would be today
if Mrs van Hopper had not been a snob. I
think that that's such an engaging begin I love the
witness or it begins, first of all, because I think
the only two moments of real clarity that this narrators
has are in her dreams. That the first one is
about dreaming about returning to Manderley, and the second one
(46:11):
is in the last chapter where she dreams about Rebecca
coming through her dreams and Rebecca just destroying everything. Um.
And I think those are things that she can't think
about in her waking life, and that's really fascinating. And
I think the next chapter means that we all know
how this plays out, Like we're all just waiting to
see how they go from having this beautiful home in
(46:33):
Cornwall to living in city hotels. And she begins as
a paid companion to an older, unpleasant person, and now
she is a paid companion to an older unpleasant person again,
and it's her husband. And I think part of what
makes it such a mystery is how she gets back
to that place. I'm not a big fan at the end,
(46:56):
at the beginning most of the time. That's that's I
think that's a personal thing for me. Also hate very
vivid descriptions of Flora, and that's like a lot of
the first two chapters. I think we've talked about that before.
I'm like, I don't want to hear about plants. I
don't want to hear about there's a lot of flower talks.
We gotta we got to know all about the as Ailiens,
(47:19):
which are blood red at first but then afterward come
in blue. Yeah again, all her there. Yeah. I love
that You're I love Jennifer, that you're giving You're You're
(47:40):
the Danvers of this. I will say that that convicting
her to wear the costume that Rebecca Laura to her
last ball is a crazy, I mean, amazing prank move
like it's so it's evil genius, Like it is so
evil and and I just wanted. I was like shouting
in my like the trap don't do? Why why do
(48:03):
you trust me? I couldn't so so naive, but I
do look like I crom I agree. Sometimes I don't
like knowing the ending at the beginning, like I really
try to avoid spoilers and things, but I think that
to me the way, like every now and then she
would like drop in like, uh, you know, the first
(48:24):
and last my first and last fancy dress ball. Uh,
you know, just like little things of reminding you of
the dread. I feel like this book was so much
dread and I love that ship, and I think there's something.
If there wasn't that I would be like I don't
care about the rhododendrons, like I don't because I know
there's a body coming. I know there's gonna be a
(48:47):
body human being. When I'm reading something where I and
I think it's taking too long to get to the murder,
like I recently was reading Heather Wells Mystery series and
I think it's the fourth book. In it, you don't
get to the body until like page fifty, and I
kept texting people. I was like, I'm reading the next
(49:09):
Heather Wells book and there's no one dead yet, and
I'm just like, I'm on page fifteen. Where is the
dead body? Where it at? Give me the body? I
want the death, give me the murder. And I'm like,
it's a murder mystery, I want the murder. This is
a very atmospheric novel. It's like it's everything is in
subtle glances and the like arranging flowers and then like
(49:33):
what time is t again? Like little social conventions. That's
our show for the week. Thank you so much for listening.
I'm Danis Schwartz and you can find me on Twitter
at Danish Schwartz with three z s. You can follow
Jennifer Wright at jen Ashley Right, Karama down Qua is
at Karama Drama, Melissa Hunter is at Melissa f t
(49:57):
W and Tan Tran is smart enough to have and
off Twitter, but she is on Insta at Hank Tina.
Our executive producer is Christopher Hessiotis and we're produced and
edited by Mike John's Special thanks to David Wasserman. Next week,
after we make sure to print up a bunch of
give Me the Murder t shirts thank you for EMA,
we will continue our conversation about Rebecca before we jump
(50:19):
into the screen time portion of this book and do
the nineteen forties Alfred Hitchcock adaptation and then the Army
Hammer Lily James adaptation. Coming to Netflix. Popcorn book Club
is a production of I Heart Radio.
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