Screen Time: Brave New World

When you’re talking about books being adapted into movies and TV, the cliché that comes to mind is “the book was better.” But if you’ve listened to our last couple of episodes about Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World (hint hint… you should go do that if you haven’t), you’ve heard our myriad issues with it. Well this week, we’re getting into the adaptation for NBC’s Peacock and now you’ll get to hear our numerous issues with that as well!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
So when you're talking about books being adapted into movies
and TV shows, the cliche that always comes to mind
is the book was better. But if you've listened to
our last couple episodes about Alvie Huxley's Brave New World intent,
you should do that. If you haven't, you've heard our
myriad issues with it. Well, this week we are getting
into the adaptation for NBC's Peacock, and now you'll want

(00:28):
to hear our myriad issues with that as well. It
doesn't lend itself very well to adaptation, which is why
when I finished reading it, I was like, what they
made this into a show, And it turns out they didn't.
So Welcome back to Popcorn Book Club. I'm Danis Schwartz,
joined as always by Jennifer Wright, Tan Tran, Melissa Hunter,
and caramadan Qua, and today we are back on screen

(00:51):
time the name for the segment that I have unilaterally
decided to move forward of it? You did. I just
made this decisions for the moment with such confidence that
we all were like, yes that is the name. Yeah,
you said it with such confidence that it made me
feel like I did vote for it. Yes you did.
You just all forgot. I just assumed that I missed.

(01:15):
I thought it like Mr. I Heart Radio told us
it had to be called that. I am Mr Karama.
His name is I Heart Radio, Ivan Heart Radio. It's
like a haunted mansion to Stone. So we are back

(01:35):
on the segment that Mr. The president of I Heart
Radio told us had to be called screen time talking
about Brave New World. The I want to say adaptation,
but not even really adaptations. It a title and very
little and some characters people keep making fun of Bernards

(01:59):
like c W West World. I maybe say that is
such a yeah, have we said the name yet? It's
Brave New World on NBC's streaming series Peacock. Again a
very loose adaptation, and that they picked a few elements
that I think they liked. But before we dive in,
because I think we're gonna have a lot to say, Jennifer,

(02:22):
you're you're a defender of the show, and so I
want to start with you on just in your own words,
what you think the show is about and what you
enjoy about it. Okay, So first of all, um, not
that you need a defense for enjoying anything, because we
would never be afraid to like things that we'd like.
But um, A note is that I watched the first

(02:45):
i'm gonna say four episodes of this after having a
very minor operation and I was on painkillers. So I
have a sense that henced my my enjoyment of at
least the first portion of the show, because I did
notice a guarantee reason quality. I was no longer on

(03:10):
thank killer. But I just thought, like, I guess it
really ran out of ideas, like two and a half hours.
It might have been something else. I mean, I kind
of thought it came together towards the end. I think
because I let go of all of my expectations, I
was gonna say, did we watch the same show? Because
it did not come together. It came together kind of

(03:30):
the same way that when a kid makes you a
little mudpie and then here you go, it's like together
only for a second, crumbling watch the entire show. No
I didn't. I did, Karama did see And how far
could you get? I only got I only got three

(03:52):
episodes in when he just starts, he just got back,
or John just is in the room. That's very freaking out,
like I can't can you put in? You put in exactly?
This is this brings up one of my gripes. So
you got a third of the way through. Because the
series is nine episodes, which is not a thing that

(04:13):
I've ever heard of anyone ever doing. And I'm all
for the fact that we now have this streaming ability
which makes it so that we don't need to follow
the conventions of network television. And I think that's great,
and I think innovation is cool. But because the show
was also not great, I don't know why they didn't
do more or less episodes. I don't know what it

(04:36):
would have benefited from one more or one few. The
more I think in terms of episodes, it's kind of
my rule about movies that no movie should be over
two hours unless it's very very good. If it's very very,
very very good, I don't care how long it is.
But if some movie is like a B plus and
it's two hours and one minute, I'm like, what's happening?

(04:58):
Why are generate? I feel like a minus? Get that
ship out of here. And I think it's the same
with episodes. It's like, if it's going to be more
than eight these days, you got to prove your ninth,
you know, prove your ninth. Nine. We listen, that's the
name of your TV writing school. Prove your ninth, your

(05:19):
nine seminar no sense to like half of the whatever. Yeah,
it'll make sense on the ninth class. Yes, it's intriguing.
You have to have a title that makes you want
to ask questions and and find out more. Well the
well the classes eight sessions, and then you have to
pay for the nights. So I'm proving my ninth. You know,

(05:43):
I type the class. So let's talk about the similarities
with the book. First, I got that there's a character
named Bernard. It's Bernard, It's Bernard. There's a people say
they're British. That's a British people. Really, okay. I was

(06:05):
just like, this is a fun one. Actually did not
like the fact that John kept saying Bernard when everybody
else is saying Bernard, And I'm like, you can say Bernard.
Like if that part I would say weird, I would
feel weird saying Bernard to a British person. I have
an uncle Bernard who's American, and we've just always called

(06:26):
him Bernard because that's I like that. Yeah, that's better,
it's objectively better. I just thought this an American. I
was forced to always say Bernard Bernard. That was like
the British one pounce their name in a different way.
Probably just go with that. I just keep thinking of
him as Bernard because I read it that way. Yeah,
me too. Yeah. Well, the fun fact I learned about

(06:49):
the actor playing Bernard is that he's Charles Dickens, like
great great great grandson, which is just one he does.
I don't look like he's Else Dickens, great great great
pants and totally. I also just want to point out
that Charles Dickens tried to get his wife institutionalize so
he could run off with a teenage mistress. And I've

(07:09):
never forgiven him for that. She was she was an actress,
She was very very young, and his wife had something
like nine children, might have been six sowhere in that
six to nine range of children. Yeah, and then he

(07:33):
tried to get her institutionalized, and that's a horrible, horrible
thing to do. Well, one of those six to nine
babies had some more babies, and one of them became
an actor. Who is good. He was great, She did
a good job. Everybody. I think everybody did a very
nice job. I thought the costumes were delightful. The Weasley

(07:56):
man that you that is your type, okay, because I
was like John is also We's John is not my type.
Though I don't like like cowboys. I don't think he
might like a cowboy. I don't think he as a cowboy.
My my theory about Aldan Aarnich, who is uh the
actor who played John John in this series um is

(08:18):
that everything about him to me reads as a British
actor playing American even though he's like born in l A. H.
I don't know why. He just seems very like he's
a British guy, like doing that American accent that's very
like we have to go, we have to go to
get us. Like he British, he is a person who

(08:39):
grew up in l a and went to theater school
and college. He just seems like exactly that, like an
l A kid who took some like voice classes, non
singing voice voice actor he did like Alexander method, and
now he's like very into his front palette. Honestly, I
like him. I think it's kind of a bummer that

(09:02):
he's gotten these high level roles that people don't turn
out to like. Like Solo he played, I liked it too.
I thought it was like a super fun movie, but
super intense fans did not like it. And it's really
I liked this record. Yeah, I'm saying I really like

(09:22):
him In Hail Caesar. I think that's a really good movie.
That movie that had like George Clooney and a bunch
of white people. It was like all white people. All
white people didn't it's yeah, it's all white, but everyone
is good in it. As a white person. He's he's

(09:43):
everyone is great. I like all the actors for the
most part. I thought everyone was like very compelling, interesting
to watch. Love Sybil from down Down Nabby. I like
didn't recognize her at first, and then I was like,
who is this stunning woman? I recognize it as like wait,

(10:03):
could it be it is? I'm so excited and like
she's great. She is not usually in starring roles, so
I think that it's nice to have her in this
starring role. I think that it's very well acted. I
think that the set, dressing and the special effects. There's
a lot that's good about the show. It's just that
the show wasn't like there are many good elements, but

(10:25):
it is not greater than the sum. It's not like
so in writing, you have something learned Like TV writing,
you have something called like a sandbox, right, Melissa, this
is this isn't earned the dime freeby is all right?
So this is like in the beginning of writing, writer's
rooms usually like here's our sandbox of ideas and we're
just gonna like throw it all out. I'm sure it's
a term borrowed from business that I don't know about,

(10:48):
but you just throw writers throw out all the ideas
possible and then you kind of skimmed through see which
ones you like. It feels like they just are like, well,
we have the sandbox, let's dump it all into the show. Well.
I think part of the problem for me is, um,
it's not a very action packed book. Like there's there's
a lot of great emotional up people, but if you

(11:11):
had to come up with any kind of like real action,
it's not really there. And they clearly want us to
be an action packed show. So instead of just getting
found by people from New London and vacating with his mother, um, yeah,
they have to escape the reservation and break their way

(11:32):
through a smirkling magnetic field that myous, yeah, and then
she gets shot in the process, and then They're gonna
kill all of the people from New London. They're like,
none of that happens in the book. It's like, as
I understand it, it's like a minor bureaucratic discussion that
does not lead to any car chases and clearly is

(11:55):
mostly quiet philosophical discussions. It. Yeah, they could have gone that.
It could have been how Normal People. I remember thinking like,
how is normal People are going to be adapted into
a show? It's so internal and like, oh they did that.
They did that very successfully on screen. I think that
Normal People also is about two people, and that's the thing.

(12:15):
We get to see those two people interact, and I
feel like we talked in our episode on the book
Brave New World. There is not a protagonist, so it's
not It doesn't lend itself very well to adaptation, which
is why when I finished reading it, I was like,
what they made this into a show, And it turns
out they didn't, so you know, Like I mean, it

(12:39):
focuses so much on the monogamy aspect and the next
aspect of it that is not that prevalent in the
book in the way that I was like, this is
such a like made for TV thing. That they're trying
to do, like opening with her talking about monogamy and
like having those like three rules. At the very beginning,
I was like, oh god, this is going to be

(13:00):
all about sex, isn't it? And then when the orgies
can we talk? I only saw one or I need
to I need to say a story about watching the orgy.
So I thought it was going to be a personal orgy. Sorry,
but I live in a small apartment with my fiance

(13:22):
and we have this little device on our TV that
you can um you can listen to like bluetooth it
because we don't have like an update TV whatever, So
I will listen to TV on our headphones a lot
of time to when the other one isn't watching. I
was watching it the other day during the day and
he was where he was working, and he was just like,
what are you what? Like he literally turned up right

(13:45):
when the orgy had started. I'm like, it's not it's
it's a classic literature pod, just like I was watching
porn in the afternoon on a Monday. I want to
say the record, I think that the problem with this
adaptation isn't that they added action, which is fine to me.

(14:06):
I thought they made the costumes boring and like they
decided that, like, oh, the aesthetic is just boring. Futures
that coast or cost that store case which I had
never heard of before you sent something about it. The
group that is where they shopped. It's like boxy neutral colors,
uh like very clean. They have like beautiful indescent panel costume.

(14:35):
But I wanted like like kicky little green outfits with
like little belts, and they described all these like little outsay,
because it's very important. It sounds like all Lenina's outfits
in the book her spectacular pointed. Okay, the green outfit
where she goes to the new I just kept thinking about,

(14:56):
like that's gonna look so cool on screen, and then
she just wore like a jumpsuit. So that's what I found.
That's what I found most disappointing is that they fundamentally
seem to misunderstand the message of the book Brave New World,
which is so relevant, which is that like consumerism and
wanting more more fashioned, more more toys, more experiences, more

(15:17):
like based like um frivolous human pleasures, which is so
relevant than distracts people from wondering like is our life
even worth living? Where in this they were like everyone
just wears a boring utilitarian jumpsuit. Also, the House of
Want is some like savage land idea. We're no, the
House of Want is supposed to be New London. Everyone

(15:38):
is up. It's a capitalist was like the Emperor, yea,
this isn't this isn't about like for the book. Like
the sex in the book was just like a fun
little added thing, that fun distraction that wasn't like not
like undulating orgy scene that made me laugh so loud
because like, I'm sorry, in this world everyone is on rhythm.

(16:01):
There's not like one person who's just like like phrenetically
like offbeat and unable to funk. Like everyone is good.
I just there's so many. I just couldn't stop laughing
at that. But like the fact the fact that no
one the the enemy of this world is like, oh
my god. The idea of monogamy that's so taboo. Look,

(16:22):
it's so easy for people for viewers to be like, oh,
I see why this world is wrong. We're in the book.
I mean the book, take it, take what you will
from it. But I definitely reflected I'm like, oh I
see a lot of relevance and similarities in the way
I structure my life and the world structures our lives
and consumerism, and it wasn't as challenging in that way
to me. I need to pop a few somma, So

(16:44):
why don't we take a quick break. Okay, we're back
with Popcorn book Club. The introduction of Indra really muddled

(17:06):
things from yeah, I think, oh yeah, well the end
in the end, okay, so only Karama and I can
talk about this, I guess please. In the end, they
find out they all live in a computer what is like, Yeah,
like it's so, it's not it's not explained well enough

(17:28):
for me to definitively say that it's a matrix. But
I think it is strongly implied that they are living
in a computer simulation and they just escaped at the
very end, well, because like, doesn't Indra then go and
live in Bernard or like the inside Bernard and go
back to the Savage Lands and then they bring something

(17:49):
but they bring with them. Yeah, yeah, I think that's
what they're doing. So they're gonna tame the Savage Lands
with Indra, their computer overlord who health the spirits of
the nine people who created it. But no, but yeah,
and C C six is a clone of one of

(18:13):
the people who have created Indra, who is the guy
that plays Klaus on The Originals. That's like straight out
of West World taking that is the engine that engineer character. Yeah,
that's boring. They made a message this book like Brave
New World, which I think is a very relevant dystopia,

(18:34):
and just like flattened it into like the most boring
Hollywood dystopia. There's nothing You're right, there's nothing about the
book Brave New World that's like great jumpsuits, sleek minimalism.
Nothing is minimalism. Nothing is is stimps, computer simulation. It's like,
where did you get that? We all saw Minority Report.

(18:56):
It's fine. I thought Minority Report level where it's boom
boom bye, get it, take it, want it? Um? Yeah. Also,
here's the thing. Everybody in this movie becomes horny for
monogny immediately, yes, which I um. If everybody is super

(19:17):
horny for monogamy, it's hard for me to belief that
there would not just be like a sea change in
their society where people would be like all of the
population is going to be miserable if they can't like
take a whack at monogamy, So let's give it a try.
And I think that's only enhanced by having this tourist
attraction where you get to see INDs and violence, but

(19:41):
like a very passionate, heartfelt wedding where somebody talks about
how desperately they love the woman that they're going to
be monogamous with. I will set the wedding. The thing
that's funny about the wedding for me is there supposed
to be like a shotgun wedding and the woman is pregnant,
and I love loved it on TV when you're pregnant,

(20:02):
you're always nine months pregnant, very visibly pregnant, which is
not at all how a shotgun wedding works. So I
like the idea of the like park engineers from New
London being like, ah, yes, she's pregnant, we must make
her very very pregnant. I do. I do like that
in this world too, that there's a respect for theater

(20:26):
is still a craft that is the most date. That
line where he's like live theater is the most dangerous thing.
I was like, cool, someone who has done a lot
of life, but I'm making them feel I wish it
was full like waiting for Guffman, like like it was
my guest as the director, because it did feel I

(20:51):
loved how over the top it all was and it
just felt like an alien trying to be like I
understand marriages. I really I appreciated that part. I wish
it was a whole series, that it was just a
Christopher guest dile like adventure land of just like people
hanging out working at the Savage nothing happens that don't
just feel like George saunderstory. It just like what would

(21:14):
do and like they make friends and there's no crazy
plot and we just get to know these people. I
do think that it is important to recognize, though, that
there are people who want to leave the Savage Lands
and then they can't write, which I think is so
odd because that part of the adaptation. I get that
they didn't want to have it be the weird racist
thing that it was in them, the racism, but introduced

(21:44):
a weird new like haves and have not some thing
and like, oh, this is where we keep our poor
people to entertain us. I kind of just read it
as Americans, and um, the way America is going at
the moment, I kind of feel like it's what we deserve,
like we should just have to put on like terrible
pantomimes of for British people. Yeah, that's that's what we deserve.

(22:07):
I sayd appreciate that change obviously because of racism. And
also that's what I thought was where it was where
it was going in the book when they kept on
talking about the savages, the savages, and like, Oh, it's
just gonna be like what our society is now. And
but then I underestimated all this hugs racism um, and

(22:29):
then it turned out to be something entirely different. But
I was like, oh, yeah, black Friday wedding, shotgun weddings,
that is what you would expect. Well, they all have gone,
like the guns are a very important part of their
culture constantly. Everybody hasn't gone. But I also think that

(22:50):
it's just like a fundamental misunderstanding of what the difference
was between like the New World and then end quote
Savage Land in the book, where it wasn't like black
a Day and weddings which are like sexual and romantic
and like a shotgun wedding is like an act of
passion in romance where it's like I would think that
a stranger thing for a New London person would be

(23:12):
seeing like a big cathedral wedding with like religion and superstition,
you know, Like I just I didn't understand the ratio
where it's like, no, that the difference is New London
is all about like pleasures and consumering and buying things
and having sex and like get married if you get
want and have a baby, where it's like no, they

(23:32):
would be weirded out by, like yeah, I would think
like a ceremony with a veil and like a virgin bride,
Like they would be more scandalized by like someone waiting
for marriage to have sex than a shotgun wedding. I
just think the show misunderstood that where they were like, oh,
shotgun wedding tacky, that's what it is. They're tacky. It's

(23:52):
like you know, you don't that's not it, right, am
I No? I said, I feel like the one thing
about the shotgun wedding and the preycy is that pregnancy
is such a like oh my god London and like
the idea of motherhood specifically, So I think that's one
of the reasons that it had to be like bail
belly like Ali want. But they did such a bad

(24:15):
job of setting that up in the New in New London,
Like there was no real Like that's what I missed
about what was in the book that did not make
it to the TV show is that there wasn't any
discussion of like how this world came to be, what
like the like different factories and the cloning, and that
there aren't any mothers and like we don't see the
conditioning of children until like episode two, And I thought

(24:37):
that was like the most interesting aspects of that original book.
And all we get is just like monogamy or g sex,
we get a little conditioning later a little And in
the book it is such a layup, Like the way
the book is structured, Like the first fifty pages are exposition,
like a guy giving a tour, And I feel like

(24:58):
you could have easily taken that and just adapted that
to screen, Like I think that would be a fun
entry point into the world. You would have loved watching that. Yeah, yeah,
it's a freebee. Tell us what is happening. He'll put us,
give us a tour, give us the Jurassic Park. Like
I'm what's I'm a d n A you know that

(25:18):
whole one thing I also found a little confusing and
maybe you guys can help what you think the appeal
of this was. But um, the different inass in classes
in the cast between like alpha and epsilon, I was

(25:39):
very wildly confused about how John in the book is
able to get through this wall. And they're like, oh
my god, he's an alpha exotic. That's amazing, Like I
think that's what they call him right there, like we've
never seen this specimen. But I thought in the show,
but I thought the whole point of like the alpha

(26:01):
epsilon things was that you're like genetically made in a factory.
So how it doesn't benefit doesn't make sense that he
is in alpha. How would he be an alpha? Was
his dad was an alpha, his mother was a beta.
Here's the thing, though, I don't think it's genetic that Indra,
Indra what's it called, controls the force field. So it

(26:21):
was never about you're whether you're in alpha or not.
It was about whether Indra wanted you to leave or not.
But they examine him when they're when they're paying him,
and they're like and they're like, he has the eyes
of an of an alpha. Like whatever dumb thing they
come up with but I'm like, I thought the whole
point of the alpha's were the people who are like

(26:42):
genetically engineered or not. There aren't moms and dads can
How can you be an alpha if you have a
mom and dad? Even if your mom is it's not
like eye color, Maybe it is. Maybe maybe whatever you're
supposed to determine that are like eye color, and they're
passed down to me. It's dumb. But I mean, no

(27:05):
shade to the people who wrote this. I'm sure they
did a lot of really hard work and it's a
difficult piece to agree. It's very good. They made nine
episodes of it, nine whole episode But here's my thing
about it. My understanding in the book was that alpha's
were always one egg, one sperm, and every other every

(27:26):
other cast was what's it called the splitting method? I
forgot the new game. Yeah, So for me, my understanding,
having read the book and then watched the show was, Okay,
the reason he has an alpha eyeball is because he
was actually conceived with one egg and one But then

(27:47):
everyone everyone, everybody, Okay, really maybe it's just okay, you
can't like not a blank it solved? Okay, no, but
indraw was what was controlling the force field? Sure, yeah,
you know fun a fact. Okay, both of my parents

(28:08):
are Canadian, but I was born in America. But that
means that I'm still a Canadian citizen because both of
my parents are not Canadian. Okay, have you guys seen
Gattica because I think Gatica that was really good at it? Like, Jen,

(28:30):
does that mean you have Canadian eyeballs? Is that is
that what the meaning of that is? To text that
I should be allowed into Canada because I have Canadian eyeballs? Yes,
that is how it would work, all right, So that
that is my Those are my like big qualms where
I was like, I don't think the people who understood
who made this understood like the message the parable of

(28:51):
the book. And then also I don't find the show entertaining.
But again, it's very hard to make a show. So
if you're listening to this and and worked on it,
I'm you job. I mean, my god, it's so hard
to get anything made. It is so hard to get
anything made. I will say that. Like. Also glaring things
to me are that, like the main characters are all white.

(29:11):
We're just like I can't believe you're like coming out
with a new like streaming service, and the characters that
were mostly focused well, I've seen the first three so
like it all focused, so you're correct day and that
I wish it was queerer. It really isn't like everyone

(29:33):
ends up matching very like seemingly straight, and even in
the orgy scenes, I'm like, everyone is still paired up
in interestingly straight couplings. And if there is there's a
later orgy, how everybody is bisexual you yourself half of
the population, that's yeah, but the visual of it is

(29:55):
still very straight and very white and very character They
do mean because there is the scene where Bernard is like, oh,
I forgot savages are weird about dudes? Fucking dudes? Yeah,
I know he explicitly says that because Bernard's like, go
grab yourself a dude, and he's like no, I'm good.
Like He's like, no, homo, but and Bernard's like, don't

(30:17):
do that. What's your problem? Dude? But I'm yeah, and
miss listen. I only got through episode two. But in
that episode, when they're talking about how like the new
London or stole our land and all that stuff, it's
a lot of like mapping over Native issues, real Native issues,

(30:41):
and it's a bunch of white people saying that I
guess correct, And I was like, oh, I don't I
don't love that. Uh, you know, it felt tricky and
like a little bit disappointing. I couldn't agree more. I
agree with you. There is a way to successfully out
of orically talk about issues without including those people. Like

(31:04):
the movie pleasant Bill, which is a movie about segregation
and race that hasn't marry a black person, And I
love that movie. I think it's great. It has one
of my favorite lines in the world where she's talking
to Reese Spoon is talking to her friend and she's like,
you can't believe you guys are twins. You must have
been from the cool side of the uterus, which is

(31:26):
truly the dumbest thing I've ever heard. My favorite, my favorite.
I love Pleasantville because it's my favorite movie in which
a woman. Yeah, but I think that they dropped the
ball on being able to allegorically talk about the issues
of land thievery and not include Native voices. I think
that there might have been a way to do it,

(31:46):
but they didn't figure it out. And I don't know
what that way is either. I'm not saying they should
have done this. I don't know what that way either is,
but like, yeah, having that one woman keep saying like
they stole our land. She said like a million times,
and I'm like, you got stop saying. I don't know
if that even made sense for they're British. They're British

(32:07):
and they're just coming to visit this. I think a
computer simulation. Yeah, like, what is this white lady who
lives in America. You're in America, right, what is what
are you accusing them of the land? And they made
it into a theme park? But it's a big land.
I mean, it seems very very big. It's not like
they're using that, you know. I don't know. I felt

(32:27):
like that wasn't the message that it could have been.
It could have been like there the halves and where
they have not and they have this technology and bro
whatever they were saying. I just don't think her grievance
like made the most sense emotionally to me. Okay, another
thing that bothered me a lot um. One of the

(32:48):
things that I think is really interesting in the book,
and that he's one of the downsides of their society
that the really clear about is that entertainment is not
very good, Like theater is not very good. They can't
do Shakespeare there. But they're taking all these eleven year
old children to see what is like. It's not a

(33:08):
great theatrical productionant at least one, but the people involved
in care about a lot that has like legitimate emotions
involved and and gonna shoot out and like a lot
of people are yelling and saying lives and there's a
little poetic bit in the middle. But the bonything they're
seeing is like, not great theater, but it certainly qualifies

(33:32):
in my mind just to see it. Um, these are
all very very smart people seeing it. Are you really
telling me that everyone would see this and be like, well,
the only thing we can make is pornographic movie. That
is what we're gonna do. Not all pornographic though, But
like Jennifer, you're right where it's like they make it
very clear that there's an upper limit to the amount

(33:54):
of art you can achieve in in this world where
everything is preordained and there's no suffering. But they there
there are there are no barriers in this they should
be no. I mean, they have shadowed the ceiling that
has been said in the book for one of theatrical experience. Um,
that insane guy who just starts dealing at Bernard about

(34:15):
how he is an actor. He's working without a net
all the time, is in fact correct by the standards
and play a new world. He is the greatest actor
in the world and he should be respected. But none
of them take that back, none of them like. I
like how they told lies. But it felt true. Oh, emotions,

(34:37):
when we have emotions, that's interesting, that's something for us.
Why aren't they just all doing like a little historic
place about what they think monogamy is. I love that.
I would watch that. I also think it's very It
was also a little disappointing that the whole point of
the book was like to criticize Forward and the what's

(35:02):
an assembly line? Assembly line the mechanization of the workforce,
which is a legitimate thing worth criticizing. And then uh Lenina,
who's a factory worker. She's working at like a at
a at a desk in her own little microscope. There's
no factory, there's no assembly line. This is a universe.
There was a thing, there was a conveyor belt. I

(35:22):
did not think that there was a factory vibe vibe
that I was like, this isn't it. This doesn't feel
like a universe devoted to Ford. Um. I am also
fascinated by, uh, what gammas are in this book because
Gamma is my favorite character. I think. I think it's

(35:42):
hard to read a book like this and not on
some level being like, I wonder what social class I
would fit into Gamma all the way we need talk,
but also like the little Historians, there's a Gamma on
the tour but I love that. Yeah, who got to
wear a little hat? I'm telling you people, Yeah, and

(36:08):
I told him about Gary the Gamma. Okay, So Gary
the Gamma is a gamma that is assigned to John
the Savage when he comes to New London and basically
he's his confidante and his butler, and Um. It also
shows to me that John, while he's criticizing this world,
is very much into the lifestyle that he immediately because

(36:29):
there is a moment where, um, oh my god, there's
this moment where Bernard just totally crushes Gary in his
conditioning and it is so weird and fun to watch
because he knows that John and Lenina have been having sex,
which happens in the show like a lot. He doesn't
call her a strumpet, so it's still bad their relationship,

(36:54):
it's not. Yeah. But so then Arry the Gamma is
like shamed because he has broken his confidence for John.
He's like, I thought that I was being a good
Gamma and Bernard's like, you're not a very good gamma
after all, are you. So Gry runs off feeling all

(37:15):
of his feelings and has no soma, and and then
m Garry's always baking for them. Everything Gary bakes is wonderful.
I mean, Gammas are basically housewives. It seems it seems like, yeah,
it seems like everybody's problems. You can't say that you
don't have a family stretcher if everybody gets assigned a
servant who is wildly devoted to you and the benefits

(37:42):
about Yeah. So then he John comes out of the
shower and he's like Gary, Gary, and then Gary's not there,
And then he comes out and sees Bernard and he's like,
where is Gary? I had to dry myself. Garry's been
drying him. Gary is gently chalming him off like a baby.

(38:03):
So there is monogamy, And yeah, I think that Gary
was like a little bit in love with John. I
think that's a gamma's role. I think they are essentially housewives.
People are like deeply no, um no. It seems like
if you were an upperclass person, you all get your

(38:24):
own Gamma and they're just gonna take care of you. Man,
They're just gonna stroke your hair you go sleep and
make little shift shish noises. They're like a household. Yeah, Gamma,
and they like look really good. And I think they
are like a salmon color, unless like a nice pinkish color. Yeah.
I loved Gary the Gamma and he was by far

(38:47):
my favorite character because he seemed like one of the
more complex characters. I know, what do Gammas do on
their days off? Because they seem like the only people
who are deeply feeling their feelings? Like do they just
all get together and have coffee and like, okay, if
you won't believe what my alfa did, I've got some
stuff to talk about. Another great spin another great spin off,

(39:08):
which which feels like it's a multicam you know, just
like a Gamma multicam sitcom. Yeah you get the break room,
you know. Yeah, they all baked like a special ext
retreat for this, because that's what they like doing I
would love like a I would love a series that's
for women who are all Gammas and they like hang

(39:28):
out together on their days off and their friends and
it's like the Gamma Girls, Pitt Check, Karama, Pitch. Are
you listening to the show? Sorry, we're to have opinions.
The thing is, I mean we have said that there's

(39:49):
many there are many things that are good about the show.
They just don't all come together in a way that
I think makes it the best show I've ever seen.
But there is somebody out there who thinks this is
the best show they've ever seen. Actually, somebody's favorite show. Yeah,
I think we should all take a break, check in
with our Gammas, and then come back. So we're back

(40:18):
with Popcorn Book Club for My Heart Radio, Melissa. I
think he mentioned earlier when we were talking about this adaptation,
it's so hard to make things in Hollywood that like
you just need I p and they were like, Brave
New World, that's the thing we've heard of. We can
turn that into a West World where it was less
about like the interest in what the book was than

(40:41):
the fact that this book that people have heard of existed,
which you know, kind you can in this book with
the four people sitting in a room and discussing for
seventeen pages, has said they heard that they can't do Shakespeare,
and then and then they go to an island, and
then they go off to an island and it's fine.
There's bad weather, if you know, if they're doing like

(41:02):
you said, was the c WS where I wish they
would have like leaned in even more than to all
like the weird romance and relationships that like I didn't get.
I didn't, I wasn't rooting for I didn't. I was like,
I'm not rooting for anyone. And I don't know what
you're trying to say. With this version of Brave New World,
it does feel like, as I was reading it and

(41:22):
knowing there was a show and having seen the poster
and stuff, it feels like a development and marketing super
challenge to be true to the book or like true
to the tone and the like sort of dark nature
of the book and the slowness of the book. While
starring a bunch of sexy twenty year twenty something year olds,

(41:45):
it feels like it's always going to veer in the
c W direction. I feel like the only show that
I've seen that does not do that in recent history.
Is Euphoria right, Like it does go darker and pushes
darker and or like transgressive. But I think you Euphoria
benefit from being like a trojan Horse and the other

(42:06):
drab looks. It looks like a teen show, and then
secretly it's a prestig show. Where this they were like, look,
it's so Prestigie, and then they try to like sneak
it in to be pulpy, and then you have to
go the other way. I agree. I disagree with the
categorization of this as a c W show one just
because I really like c W shows and I feel

(42:27):
like you're using it pejoratively and I don't appreciate it. Well,
I am a big fan of a lot of c
W shows, Okay, I love Laying the Virgin, I love
Um Craziest Girlfriend and Buffy. Ye I can't believe Supernatural
is ending this year, like that's that's half my life over.

(42:49):
But I do think that I feel like the c
W for all of its dramatic interpretations of I p
like I mean Riverdale, which we have mentioned many times
on this podcast for a good reason. Yeah, I mean
and it is an adaptation um so Riverdale, It's still
is grounded in the relationships between people. I feel like like,

(43:11):
at the end of the day, I know the Jugead
and Betty care about each other and that's what why
the choices were made, but I don't see that here.
And like Supernatural, it's the relationship between Sam and Dean
and their brotherhood that makes the show move forward and
why people have been watching it for fifteen years. Yeah, totally.
I mean that's what I mean from like the seat,

(43:32):
not pejorative, but like the seat. What people love and
what I love is those relationships. Like it felt like
this show was attempting to do that, like with the
with the even the poster of the three of them,
you're like, oh, is this going to be like a
love triangle thing that you're going to have to try
to figure out and like root for someone to win
someone over. Not that that is a part of the

(43:54):
book at all, but like it's kind of a set
up like that, or or even like it looks like
it could be that in the night there was I
was reading for no one. I didn't care about anyone's relationship,
but it's like, did anyone have a crush on anyone
where it's like the pilot of Riverdale. Do you understand
right away Betty has a crush on Archie and then
this hot girl Veronica arrives an now Archie likes Veronica. Simple,

(44:18):
we know who the conflict where it's like in this
who does Bernard like Lanina more than anyone else in
any meaningful way? And you also kind of have to
bank on the fact that in a society with your monogamy,
you found three people who were incredibly committed to the
idea of monogamy. People weren't being like, all right, let's

(44:39):
all fun. We don't believe in like not being bisexual.
So here we go. Well, I do think it. Just
to be clear, I did sort of mean as a pejorative,
but I didn't mean that the c W is a
bad thing. I mean that people try at being that,
you know what I mean, and do not succeed. I
feel like the only one I've seen recently that succeeded

(45:00):
as you on Netflix. I feel like it was Life.
Nobody watched people that talk to me about it when
it was on Lifetime. Everybody would I do to Lifetime
because they've been creating amazing content they did unreal which
wassib I watched. I watched you on Lifetime and was like,

(45:23):
is this good? Is this secretly really good? Good? It's
really good. But I will say it is such a
challenge when you think about this book, because every good
TV show is about relationships, and we care about relationships,
and this is a book that's like people don't care
about relationships any one person. That's the whole freaking thing,

(45:44):
you know. And even in the book, you're like, oh,
they're going to fall in love. John's going to come
around to with Lenny and it's like no, he just
was like, you're a strumpet and her like. That's why
Gary's the most interesting character. He's the only person who
has a strong and ever present emotional tie to someone.

(46:04):
The other person who I think is a very fascinating
character is Franny. Yeah, very interesting in her competitive friendship
with Lanina. I think that. I think it's also very sexful,
Like I definitely sex with each other. Yeah, that's what
I meant. I didn't want to spoil it for people.

(46:27):
Why is that not in the first three episodes because
they have the Trojan the queer stuff. Because I don't
I don't think they show the sex itself. There is
a moment where Franny comes into Lenina's room and like yeah,
and then Lanina this isn't the point where Lenina is like, no,

(46:49):
I believe in monogamy, but hasn't told people because so
they don't sleep with each other they have, they haven't
and they implied that because you don't want to tickle
or something the word tick, which he definitely uses tickle.
She goes, I know how you like tick. They're using

(47:10):
the lesbian vernacular. Great? Is it just me? Or In
the book Brave New World, which the Dystopia was like
bad and I get totally get that, but was the
one thing where I was like, oh that, actually this
is kind of a good thing was that people were
like less puritanical about sex, and this show was like
that is the worst thing about it. Like I thought

(47:32):
that the one good thing about the Dystopia was like
at least people didn't like sledge shame and like people
could just sleep with people when they want, which is
like a pretty I think monogamy is great, but I
also think if you want a sexual relationship, go for it.
And I was like, Okay, this this Utopia. Dystopia has
some goods and some bads, but the TV show went
hard on that it is the worst thing about this dystopia.

(47:55):
The most evil thing is I think we are having
when when Bernard and Lena are at the when they
first get to the hotel or whatever at the Savage Lands,
and it was hot, it was really hot, but it
also made it like I laughed out loud because for
them to stop and be like, let's save ourselves, it's

(48:17):
like extreme edging. I was like, Wow, what is the
message of this show? What are we Yeah, I think
that one of the things about the show is the
introduction of the lack of privacy, and that's supposed to
speak to sort of our interconnected social networking and social
media world. And I don't think that that landed like

(48:39):
the idea have no privacy, And it was actually deeply
alarming to the point where I mean, in the very
first ten minutes, Lenina walks into his office and he's like,
here's some imagery of you getting railed over the last
couple of months. Did you know that you've only been
sleeping with one man? Because I know because I can
watch you. Like that was deeply alarming to be more

(49:01):
into that, and it would have been interesting. But instead
they were just like, all these people fuck all the
time and then John comes and teaches them how to
be good. Yeah, it seems like the thesis of the
of the film. The film. The show was very Twilight
and that it's like, wouldn't it be sexy if we waited?

(49:25):
Which I also want to say it's a valid choice, totally, totally,
but but but is it the most relevant thesis of
Brady World a property? He is very relevant today. I
just want to say on the record that if you
think it's sexy to wait, then I am so happy
for you. But it is not sexy for everyone. And
that's okay. And that's sort of what we talked about

(49:46):
in the book episode is that choice is good. Yeah,
to return to that, like to the discussion that we
had about the book, great did I only watched two
episodes this but but if that's I thought, the more
poignant message about the like non monogamy and the sort
of dystopian nature of it, is less about like, oh
you shouldn't have a partner. It's like, oh, you shouldn't

(50:07):
love anyone, you shouldn't care about one person's life or
relationship with one person. If someone dies, who cares? You
shouldn't have a maternal, paternal or parental love, romantic love,
friendship love. None of that matters. And I'm kind of
disappointed that none of that seems like it's in the show.
It's right about monogamy, it's good. I think a lot

(50:32):
of the problem with that is turning turning all of
these things into this George Saunders esque being park because well,
obviously they at least say this is to show how
bad it was back then, but there are obviously parts
of it that are very alluring and enticing. Like I
I don't think you could be a thirteen year old
child and here a man recite a love home to

(50:54):
a woman and not be like, oh, I'd like somebody
to do that for me one day. That would be cool.
Have you met thirteen year olds recently, because I'm scared
of all of them. I'm thinking of thirteen year old boys,
old girl. Yeah, yeah, okay, But I feel like by

(51:17):
showing them the fascinating passions experienced by these people, you
obviously make those passions alluring right away. Like, I just
don't believe that you could have this theme park where
you give people a guide book of like they saved
themselves your marriage and it was so erotic, exciting, and
they went out to see highly oiled men before the

(51:39):
bride gave herself away, but she couldn't touch them, and
nobody went back to New London. It was like, I'm
going to start doing mad that's my empty thing now, Um,
everybody would do that. It's just um the entire Brave
New Girl Books. Society I think is built around the
idea of ignorance the love could be a desirable thing,

(52:01):
and that families and passion could be a desirable thing,
and that art and theater could be desirable. Um. That
society works because you've distracted people so much that they
just don't think about it. And there are so many
instances in the television show where like whether it's John
coming back and like giving this speech up parties where

(52:22):
he talks about how like he's never gonna love again
because like the girl he loved died, um, where you
make all of those emotions immediately desirable, Like you can't
tell me that people don't hear him give that speech
at a party and be like I think it would
I love now I'm in love with Mary jeez, who
I'm in love with now. It's also it looks very
weird that like that you're right that the whole point

(52:44):
of like the Brave New World Utopia is that distraction
and that like we only have new games if it
it capitalistically makes you need to buy more uh accessories,
and all our movies are are propaganda that well is
just crazy and erotic and whatever. And it's like this
world is very minim list and there's nothing distracting. It's
all just like modest jumpsuits that are obstacle golf. Maybe

(53:10):
you would tell us that it showed up later it
tennis like tennis with a light ball, but like a
lot of empty space, a lot of minimalism, a lot
of walks where someone might be alone with their thoughts. Yeah,
there's not enough distraction to keep these people numb, like
the soma is. That's it, and that's not good enough

(53:31):
for this world to like keep them numb to even
feeling remotely like discontent with how content I do feel
like that was one of the things that really shook
me in the book, was never being alone with your thoughts,
because it does feel like something that I personally struggle
with of like going on walks. I'll listen to a podcast.

(53:53):
I hope you're listening to a podcast right now. It's
very good. Um, but it does feel like that is
things so in our culture of like where you're alone
for five minutes, you check Twitter, you check Instagram, whatever,
and it does feel disappointments such an opportunity to to
like hit people. You know, I will say there is indra,

(54:13):
and I know keep saying in this case, I am correct,
because the whole kind of indra is you just think
about a person and you're with them. But they dedicate
using that, so it's like the best targeted ad. They
didn't like visually convey injury. Injury was like very minimalist.
Also in the eye and like very like modern and yeah,

(54:34):
minimalist where it's like injur wasn't like distracting. Yeah, I
was hoping for like times square times a million. Yeah,
just like also like Versailles, like a fashion that would
be fun. Yeah, like weird stuck, give me like excess.
Well look it's Peacock's HBO. They didn't have that kind

(54:54):
of budget. The budget and they didn't have money and
be see universal they have a lot of money Peacock,
although I will say that does speak to the model
of Peacock itself, and just because this is sort of
the first big property that Peacock has, I think we
should talk about how they have this freemium model where

(55:17):
Peacock itself is free to sign up for, but then
they have like levels, so if you wanted to watch
Brave New World, you do have to pay money for it,
and they can't guarantee that everybody is going to want
to pay money for things when they have free things. Also,
like all of Downto Nabby, so you can still see
Lady Sybil. Oh thank god. My question for the four
of you, who are all intelligent, television adjacent slash in people,

(55:42):
if you were given the book Brave New World, what
would your approach to turn into a television series of
nine or or fewer or more episodes? Well, first of all,
we make an eight. I didn't earn the nine, and
that's when Melissa Hunter said, wow, yeah, would make it eight.

(56:04):
I don't know. I think i'd make it. I think
I'd make it like a mini series sort of. Allah.
I know as much as true um, and I feel
like there's stuff that just needs to come out. I
think that some of the things that they were trying
to incorporate, like maybe we don't have world controller Mond
and we can't we like mash that character up with

(56:26):
Henry with the director and Henry because they he becomes
the director whatever. I think that there were too many
characters in the show, and characters that were not in
the book that we're in the show, and I think
that we could actually pare down the characters in the
book and then focus on one person, so focus on Bernard,
focus on Lenina. I would probably focus on Bernard, despite

(56:50):
the fact that I think that Lanina as a woman
is somebody that I identify more with, but Bernard in
terms of fish out of water and having this sort
of legacy that he's supposed live up to as an
alpha that he is being questioned on. It's funny, however,
dunk Son, It's funny that everyone dunk Son, Burner Rama.

(57:11):
We would do a great show together because I feel
like I have the same instincts I think when you
think about Black Mirror, like I'm a big Black Mirror fan,
and I feel like some some episodes are super strong
and some aren't as strong. And I feel like the
strongest ones are always a big world with a small
central relationship that has like very high stakes and like

(57:35):
the one with Lady Sybil, Yes, very I think it's
a very distracting world. I think, Yes, the one that
really got me, that has always stuck with me is
the one where um, they everyone records things with their
eyes and every memory is recorded and uh, and it's
like this jealous guy who thinks his wife is cheating

(57:58):
on him. And again it's guess simple right in a
big world. And I think that's what you do with
Bernard and Um and Lanina. It's like make them the
central relationship. John is the one that kind of comes
in between them. Um. But but it's like what is

(58:18):
their central conflict and their dynamic and really hone in
on that, and then you have John sort of like
blow it all up. Yeah. My ark would be that
Bernard starts feeling like a fish out of water and
then in the end he goes to his island and
he gets to feel like he belongs and it's like, oh,
maybe sometimes it's not you, sometimes it's society, And maybe

(58:42):
being a misfit is an okay thing in a world
where everyone expects you to be a misfit. Um. But yeah,
I don't know what the show was trying to do
or say. Yeah, I think, um, I think it touches
on something that we meant it earlier. I'd like to
see them lean into these characters being antiherists. Like in

(59:05):
the book, everybody picks on Bernard, Bernard's awful. Everybody picks
on him for understandable reasons, um, and the Savage is
maybe has a better knowledge of Shakespeare, but it is
also awful and probably murders the central woman in the

(59:28):
book by the end. So I think not leaning into
those characteristics is what makes it feel like a c
W show that it feels like they've watered this down
so really gloss over the murder that he does in
the show, like straight marks his dad and nobody ever
brings it up ever again at all. I forget that
he doesn't. Yeah, exactly my point. Yeah, yeah, it's just

(59:53):
kind of painted as like, um, I guess, an acceptable
moment of feeling. But I'm sure Gary would like help
him get a passport and get him out to another
country because because sports in that world. Indra in this

(01:00:14):
podcast episode sponsored by Indra, what about you, Dana. I
think that definitely makes it. I mean you you're all
those instincts all sound right. I think like the one
major thing or like the fix because of the book,
racism of the Savage Land is true, like you need
to fix that. But I don't know if the theme
park worked for me. I do kind of like the

(01:00:36):
idea that they would just go and it would just
be regular America. But it's just just jet actual regular America.
What I would do, which is just like not a
theme park. It's just really hard to get a travel
visa to go. If you're like a high ranking alpha,
you can go, and it's just they just go to

(01:00:57):
like the Cleve Cleveland and just like like this is
kind of shitty in a different way. So that's my
that would be my one. But I would spend like
a week in Cleveland with no silma. Yeah you can
whether they're like it's a stressful experience. They like watch
a movie that's like a normal movie and they're like, Okay,

(01:01:19):
it's fine. They seem like they see like a Cleveland
production of like Wicked, and then they're like theatery scarbage.
If they go back home and that feeling is true,
It's fine. It was a little flat, like not not
bad listening when you're in Cleveland, They're not. I really

(01:01:44):
I enjoyed Cleveland the perspective of a of a New
London asshole. They wouldn't appreciate the joys of Cleveland like
I would. I've never been to Cleveland, but I think
I mean regular. I only know Cleveland from the thirty

(01:02:04):
Rock bit where they're like that, I love that bit.
Wasn't the Drew Carey show set in Cleveland? Yes? It was?
Did they just choose a spot on a map ors
from Cleveland? I feel like he has feel like he
has to be from Cleveland, you know what. I feel
like the only reason we're thinking of Cleveland is because

(01:02:26):
he's a lot of pop culture, Like Cleveland is too sophisticated.
Send them to this moy Tiowa. Cleveland doesn't sound like
a real word anymore. Yeah, did you tell us how
you would write the show? I mean I would. I
would do something similar to Melissa and Karma is just
like focus on that those relationships of Bernard uh Lanina

(01:02:48):
and John. I mean my dream would be too. I
would clear the hell out of it and follow Lanina
and maybe have Bernard to be a woman as well
and have them kind of like play around with the
fact that this world is what do you say, Bernard
debt um, because it does seem like, you know, we

(01:03:09):
still get to see these men making these decisions based
on their emotions, and I want to I want to
give the women in this world that opity opportunity to
do that and not just have like John b Emo
and Bernard b also Emo in his wheels weird Weasley way.
Also in terms of people who are related to famous people.

(01:03:31):
Tom Stoppard's son is also in it, and he plays
the I'm forgetting his name, just the the guy in charge,
Bernard's boss who shows up something to say to lecture
him worked, the white guy, the one who gets pushed
over the cliff. No, I didn't, I didn't finish this fathers. Yeah, sorry,

(01:04:02):
I kind of do. Sometimes have white guy face blindness
with really generic looking handsome guys. Were handsome in there
to make it okay, but like if someone is like
a certain level of handsome, they just all look the
same to me, like every every like bachelor guy, every
guy who's ever been on the badelor I can never
I can't tell a part. I mean, I think that's

(01:04:23):
done on purpose. They all, yeah, they're all casting cast
to look the same the same there twice And I
found it out recently and I was like, really, I
would have never known if you lined them up. They
should just be renaming the same guys every season with
a different name and a different occupation. Like, wow, Matthi

(01:04:46):
architect really looks a lot like Mark the Pilot. I
just take it over it. They make them like change
their whole identity every time social Security number. Also, I
think for if we were to write this, I would
love to see just like capitalism even grosser than what's
being shown, just like they don't really gross capitalists. No

(01:05:10):
person buy a thing. Do they have money? Like it
doesn't it's not clear. It's certainly clear in the book
that they have to keep consuming that someone guys because
Lenina talks about that someone bought her like a darling
Mouth Lucian belt. Yeah, and that was a gift. And
the show, do they have money, It's very unclear. It's
unclear they don't. It's unclear how they like have their

(01:05:33):
their apartments and like how they get and their damas,
just as signed the game just like you have a
person that's your person, Yeah, my person, and they just
love you. Yeah. I there was something that was really
intriguing that I don't remember at least being explored in

(01:05:55):
the book. I've blocked out the majority of the book
because I was like, I don't care for this. This
is racist, racist in a lot of ways. Um, but
they get There's a part where Lenina and Bernard do dating,
as they call it. Um. They try out doing a
date like a monogamous, savage person would do, and Bernard

(01:06:18):
is basically like trying to see if Lenina like likes him,
which is sweet in a way, but then he gets
really frustrated when she clearly is like I want to go.
But then he like plays chicken with her in a
way where he's like, okay, so now we fuck, and
then she's like clearly not interested in it, but starts

(01:06:39):
taking her clothes off because it's what she's supposed to
do because she's a beta, and he does stop her,
he doesn't assault her, but like the fact that he's
willing to humiliate her in that way was very weird,
and I don't know it sort of got into this
idea like the betas are supposed to be good time

(01:06:59):
girl all the time, and I are all the fascinating.
Not all of the women are betas. I think in
this they do have alpha's that are women. I'm pretty sure.
I'm pretty sure all the women are betas because he
wrote it in and women didn't develop full brains until
women didn't get the right to vote in Switzerland until

(01:07:21):
the nineteen seventies. Did you know that? But I found
it out today. It is curious though maybe I mean, again,
only watch two episodes, but in the second episode on
the bus that like, there's like a shitty kid who's like, yeah,
you're a beta, like and why would he say that
if like every woman was a beta like that, you're

(01:07:42):
a lady Helm is a I'm pretty sure. I felt
the tender swopping on that was fun, was very good.
She was too artistic for a dystopia. She was too cool.
That ended up being her problem. And she became so
fascinated by the idea of John's feelings and how she
got to explore his feelings, like she downloaded his feelings

(01:08:05):
and she was like, I've never seen anything like that before.
And then she like takes off her wig and he's
a new person, Like again giving these people full history books,
why wouldn't you just do like a bunch of historical promise. Um,
the the amount of information they have given them is

(01:08:25):
not compatible with the art that this world is turning out.
Part of a part of a dystopia is you have
to restrict information, like the difference with this and they
haven't at all. There's that famous essay of like the
difference between comparing Brave New World with n and it's like, yeah,
the dystopia in nineteen eight four is they destroy all
the books and restrict it and center it. And the

(01:08:46):
difference in Brave New World is they give you so
much that you don't even care to read the history books.
So it's like they're not doing either of those things.
So why is the system working in a bit of
the matrix? Because that's the at the end of the series,
and it's like a test. It's like to see if
Indra can withstand the Savage coming in and he's like

(01:09:08):
a virus. Like it's so weird. It's such a bizarre
ending that came from nothing. In the book Full Scale Revolt,
I forgot that part. They murder people, they murder people.
The exons just completely revolt and c Jack sixty is

(01:09:29):
the leader of the revolt, and then when he sees
how it actually ends up happening because it's done with
the use of Indra, because you can't tell anybody apart
other than with Indra because they don't have their color
coordinated outfits like they did in the book. So, um,
if there were a couple of people who like took
Indra out and he was like, oh god, this is
this is not good, what's happening, and those people get

(01:09:52):
to live and they're like, it's it's really interesting to
see how Indra is the only way that they can
tell what class anybody is. So once you take that out,
everybody's the same. Maybe that maybe that is what the
remake should have been, is just follow ce Jack see
Jack sixty. Yeah, and not following alpha and not follow

(01:10:12):
a beta, not follow someone who's like up in that society,
because they start doing it a little bit where they're
where he like touches the person that jumped up like
touches his clone, and he has a feeling that was bizarre.
But if that's what you wanted, if that is something
that you wanted to explore, that like people are starting
to like play with emotion and feeling. I would buy that.

(01:10:35):
It's very the giver that it's like, oh, people, people
are starting to have emotions. What's happening. One of the
best scenes in the book, though, is the scene that
makes it so clear that revolt it's impossible that John
in the book tries to start a revolt, and the
first of all, everybody's just really annoyed that he's growing
out their soma. And then once it got so annoyed

(01:10:57):
that they're willing to attack him, they just really a
cloud of so mane to the air and they play
a little recording saying like, why are you doing this?
Please be good, just be nice to each other. Okay,
all right, right right right right right right right right
right right yeah, nice, right right nice? Yeah, what we

(01:11:18):
do here again? I would be into that too. Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
I think one of the most interesting parts of their culture,
and the reason I think their culture keeps working is
because you just do that every time there's an attempt
at uprising. Yeah, it's a successful it's a successful dystopia.
And also if someone is too smart for it, they

(01:11:39):
send you to a nice island where it seems fine,
where then you don't. It's not like they're murdering people
and they're guillotining people and they're like, oh we have
to Okay, this system is not working. This is violent.
It's like, all right, if you don't work for the system,
go live in like the Falkland Islands with fun. Okay,
that sounds nice. I'll do that what we're saying about

(01:12:01):
that though, And I wonder do they do that with
gammas and absalon's or do they just do it with
like alpha's and baby But I think the prob the
thing in the book is it assumes that gammas and
epsilons are so programmed that they would never even have
the ability to see outside the box they love, that's true.

(01:12:22):
And they also all have like fetal alcohol syndrome. Yeah,
they're like they're like actually brain damage like on purpose, yeah,
developmentally like actively stunted. Yeah, I mean bad. But aspect
of it was missing from the show. Yes, yeah, the

(01:12:42):
AICs was gone. Yes, said they really they flattened it out,
They made it much more. They made the like questions
of morality and society just like way less pressing. I mean,
you could you could push all of those things to
make it more relevant for to and they just flattened
it out. Yeah, doing like a very eugenics heavy, um

(01:13:06):
dystopian show. That would have been interesting, scary look a
dystopian world about like the distraction of consumerism and social
media and also eugenics and also apathy that people just
don't care is very scary and I would want to
see that. And I was just like disappointed that we

(01:13:27):
didn't get that. And that's why I think so not
to harp on the nine episodes, but I feel like
if they had had episodes, if they had kind of episodes,
I feel like they might have been able to figure
out a way to stretch and explore all of those things.
But like they went for nine, not even eight, So
it doesn't feel like they were told, you only have
eight episodes. I don't I don't know what happened there.

(01:13:49):
I think that they like came up with the thing
and they were like, Okay, we said all the things
we want to say. I say all the things that
the book wanted to say. I feel like the nine
meant that they that the I was like, how many
do you need to tell the story you want to tell?
And he's like mm hmm nine, So they got exactly
what they wanted. You know, it wouldn't work if John

(01:14:11):
got completely absorbed into that society. Would that be a
kind of tragedy if he went there and just by that,
like he ended up realizing that he didn't want to
towel himself off ever again, then he wanted Gary to
gently towel off his wet body every time he came
out of the shower for the rest of his life.
I think he would have been happier. I mean maybe, Yeah,

(01:14:33):
I don't know down into the show, so I don't
know how good this toweling off is. So I can't
make it. I can't make a good judgment. Very gentle
Garry is very lovely him, and we're talking like what
kind of what kind of really fluffy? Okay, yeah, just
Gary warms it up a little bit beforehand, Pyle, Okay, well,

(01:14:56):
then that would have been tragic. I would have liked
to see. Yeah, they didn't include any of the good stuff.
I think that they did a disservice to themselves by
making the first two episodes medium good and then like
making those the three episodes because we're I not watching it.

(01:15:17):
I always will watch anything for three to five episodes
just to test it out. I'll watch truly pretty much anything. Um.
But if it weren't something that we were talking about
for this show, with the first two episodes being free,
I don't think I would have pushed to go further. Like,
I don't think I would have signed up to get

(01:15:38):
more episodes. Yeah, we had watched this for this and
we only watched two and three. Yeah, it's about relationships, right.
I feel like I could see a version where you
just really slow it all down and like really drill
into Bernard and Lenina in the first episode and like
why we care about them, and then you just an

(01:15:58):
episode three, you're with John and you don't know who
he is, you don't know like what world the whole episode. Yeah,
it's very like yeah exactly, uh, and it feels like
then you're just with him and then you you understand
how the world's intersect. Like I'd be all in. Yeah,

(01:16:19):
that sounds I want to watch that. I want to
watch that show too. Yeah, Peacock, what do you think
a reboot of Brave New World? At least? No, I
think that we've we've done enough braving of this New
World we can stick with old worlds and other new
worlds that have other adjectives, so like maybe like a

(01:16:40):
funky new world. I don't know. I would love a
world that's just about like funk music, just like funk
music and soma just like people having a good time.
People would love that. I know exactly what people would
love that. And they're on Somac show. I think that's

(01:17:03):
just like a live concert fish. It's a fish concert,
some funny music, people on drugs. Fun. Thank you so
much for listening. Next week is Rebecca, So get reading
if you want to read along or just watch the movie.

(01:17:25):
We're doing both of them. There's one coming to Netflix
with Army Hammer and Lily James. So thanks for listening.
Bye bye bye. That's our show for the week. Thank
you so much for listening. I'm Danish Schwartz and you
can find me on Twitter at Danis Schwartz with three

(01:17:45):
z s. You can follow Jennifer Wright at Jen Ashley Right, Karama,
Donqua is at Karama Drama, Melissa Hunter is at Melissa
f t W and Tan Tran is smart enough to
have gotten off Twitter, but she is on Insta at
Hank Tina Our Executive producer is Christopher Hessiotes and were
produced and edited by Mike John's Special thanks to David Wasserman.

(01:18:06):
Next week, we are going goth in time for Halloween.
Not like dressing in black listening to the care goth Unfortunately,
we're discussing the gothic novel Rebecca by Daphne Dumourier, soon
to be a film on Netflix. Popcorn book Club is
a production of I Heart Radio