September 14, 2020 • 49 mins
I don’t know what your Twitter timeline looks like, but if it’s anything like ours, every week, like clockwork, it has been filled with people absolutely freaking out about HBO’s Lovecraft Country—how scary it is, how surprising, how interesting and refreshing a show it is. We covered the book a few episodes ago and now that the show is about halfway through its season, we are returning to Lovecraft Country to talk about how the adaptation compares to the source material.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, they're friends. So I don't know what your Twitter
timeline looks like, but if it's anything like mine, Every week,
like clockwork, it has been filled with people absolutely freaking
out about HBO's Lovecraft Country. How scary it is, how surprising,
how interesting and refreshing a show it is. We covered
the book a few episodes ago, and now that the
show is about halfway through its season, we are returning
(00:26):
to a Lovecraft Country to talk about how the adaptation
compares to the source material. In the book, the most
horrifying thing is always a racism that these characters have
to experience, and in the TV show, the most horrifying
thing is not the racism. The most horrifying thing is
your body babbing, its skin peeled off. And also there's
a sneak penis, and there was a snake penis. Yeah
(00:50):
it was the one that Yeah, yeah, the snake penis
really got me. Welcome back to Popcorn Book Club. I'm
joined by Tian Trans, Jennifer Right, and Karama down Qua. Uh.
Today is screen time what I newly dubbed this segment
where brand new information to everyone, but the up for workshops,
I just thought I thought of it and ran with
(01:10):
it where we discussed the adaptations of the books that
we've discussed on this show. And today we're going back
to love Craft Country to talk about the HBO adaptation,
which is a departure. I think I can say comfortably, Yeah,
it left that very different. I will say personally, I
(01:32):
was kind of all in on this show and it's
like camp horror gore until episode five, where the gore
got a little too much from were out of control wildly.
I was saying, no, no, no, I don't want it.
I don't want the episode five. So I know that
(01:53):
we're starting kind of at the end because we're just
talking about the first five episodes. But um, I will
say that one of my worst fears is having my
skin removed, and episode five played into that. And it's
funny because whenever I tell people that, they're like, let's
into a weird thing to be a rain of, and
I'm like, then, why does it keep coming up in
media all the time in scary things like in Buffy
(02:16):
the vampire Slayer Willow Flade, what's his face? Warren? And
what's it called? The Silence of the Lambs, which I
didn't watch love was an adult so it's not because
of that. There was Buffalo Bill who was like, what
if I made a skin suit out of fat girls?
And I'm like, I'm a fat girl. Did you watch
Did you watch Birds of Prey the Harley Quinn movie.
(02:36):
I did watch. I did watch Birds of Prey. YEP. Basically,
there's there's space space removing. I did not enjoy and
it's a thing that people don't notice all the instances
of it unless you're like afraid of it. So I'm like,
what's happening again? So episode five was literally my worst nightmare.
I was like screaming watching it next to my mom
(02:57):
and she was like, what's wrong with you? I think Also,
it does change the tone of the story because in
the book it was more like this deal with the
devil type thing, where it's like, you have this fantasy
and what's the cost? Is it going to cost your soul?
And in the TV show it's like it's a deal
with the devil, It's gonna cost you your soul. And
also existential horror. And one of the things that I
(03:26):
really liked about the book was it feels like in
the book, the most horrifying thing is always the racism
that these characters have to experience, and in the TV show,
the most horrifying thing is not the racism. The most
horrifying thing is your body bebingnet skin peeled off. And
also there's a sneak penis and snake. There was a
(03:46):
snake penis. Yeah, the snake the one that Yeah, the
snake penis really got me another, Jennifer, You're so right that, Like,
I think part of that is because it's a TV
show and so it has to be visual where it's
like a lot of the racism they described in the
book is settle, but they also just fall on ad
scary imagery like a baby head monster. Yeahs baby had
(04:10):
monster made me laugh because it was I think I
was so it was something I didn't expect at all,
and it's appearance. I was like, okay, well we have
baby head monster. Now baby head monster. If you're just
listening and don't recall that off the top of your head,
but how could you not? I think that was episode
(04:31):
uh three where Letty buys the haunted house and it's
a little different. Instead of working with the old racist
white ghost, she vanquishes him with the help of all
the creepy uh ghost Monsters. I will say episode three
had something that is totally something I really enjoyed about
(04:54):
the show, which is that it placed it. It felt
more in the contact of nineteen fifty five and of
what was happening. So we had Letty with all of
her artist friends moving in, and like one of them
was James Baldwin and they're all like at a party
talking about Martin Luther King Jr. And how he changed
his name from Michael to Martin, which was brand new
(05:17):
information for me. I did not know that, um, and
I felt embarrassed that I didn't know that. But I
asked a couple of other people and they also didn't
know that, so I felt And there were black people too,
so I was like, Okay, I get to keep my
black herd today. But the point of this show in
that episode where I was like, oh, this show means
business is when that guy got decapitated by the elevator.
(05:37):
But then we get like a full few seconds of
the blood pumping up. Of all the episodes, I loved
the third episode just because I felt like Karma, like
you said, like they I think they centered so much
how this group, this group of people are like dealing
with white supremacy at this time, and I think that
like four and five do that as well. But there
(05:59):
full they're there are added elements from the the show
that are not in the book that we're wild, that
I think are wild choices that I don't think served
the story. Well, is it the gay stuff in episode five?
Because for me, it's the gay stuff in episode five
it's all it's all the queer stuff to me specifically,
just because like I feel like it's so glaring. Um,
(06:21):
especially in episode four. Loved all the like Indiana Jones
esque like may I mean, I love like a booby
trap and a puzzle that needs to be solved and disintegrating.
My favorite trope of like any sort of like narrow
thing that people walk across is like at the beginning,
they're like, oh my god, I'm gonna fall, and then
they just like sprint across towards the middle of it. Um.
(06:45):
So loved that. But the like introduction of yahima Um,
the indigenous character two Spirited, was just so token izing
and done with such little care that it was like
very upsetting to see that in one hand, you know,
addressing white supremacy and how black folks have to deal
(07:05):
with it is being done with such care, and then
like it's not being it's not being thought of intersectionally.
At that moment felt like a missed opportunity. It also
felt to me and again we had the serious hasn't
finished yet, that Mantros is being closeted, hasn't served the
story yet. That it felt like a sort of a
(07:27):
strange interstitional where we pull away and see that and
then come back to this main story that's completely unrelated. Yeah,
like love a drag ball love the love the acknowledgment
that like ballroom culture comes out of black culture, but
also in the larger context of this story that we've
been telling, it just felt very um unmoored. It didn't
(07:49):
make sense in its placement. I didn't understand why it
was the story we were telling. It didn't for me,
really give Montrose much character growth. And it just felt
like somebody was like, we should because it have queer characters,
and I'm like, but also maybe have them as part
(08:10):
of the story, or have their queerness be part of
the story. Have it saved somebody, have it be important
in some way other than just like hey, information, or
even have like a spooky lovecraft thing happen in that culture,
Like you couldn't even like some of this is sort
of interconnected stories that happen in different locations, and if
they were interested in exploring like black ballroom culture, they
(08:32):
could have done some some spooky lovecraft stuff there. Yeah,
and especially with Montre, Like I at the very end
with the ballroom culture, I loved that scene and I
loved seeing him like, you know, enjoy himself and finally embrace.
But I'm like, why couldn't we have that from the beginning,
Like what was what was the point of making it
like a salacious reveal in episode three and then also
(08:55):
like a bizarro like back Ali d J in the
first episode, Like neither of those things needed to happen. Well,
the interesting other Mantrose mystery element. Uh obviously spoiler alert
everything on this podcast. But they decided to kill off
George in the second episode, and they also maybe I
(09:18):
read too much into this, did they sort of implied
that George was Atticus as real father implied that, Yeah,
there's a lot of soap op stuff going on these
So I think that the thing about implying that Montrose
was not Atticus is real father was uh an early
hint at Montrose's queerness as well, because um, we also
(09:43):
have the fact that George is involved with atticus mother
as she appears to him in this vision when they're
in their rooms. And I have more to say on
the being in the rooms thing later with the visions,
but um, I also thought that the I was having
this guession with one of my friends about the show
because a lot of my friends have been texting me
about the show, and she read the book as well.
(10:07):
So shout out to my friend Margaret whoo whoop who
read the book and watched the show, and she was like, well,
in the book, I felt like nobody was ever dying.
So like three stories in, I felt like, Okay, I'm
not worried that any of them are actually going to die.
And I thought that was a really interesting point how
there was a departure from that where we have a
main character that we're like, oh, I read the book,
(10:29):
I know is going to be fine, And then they
were like gone, sort of Game of Thrones, ask um,
So I feel like that, in a way is them
telling us, hey, it's not safe for anyone. This isn't TV. Yeah,
they spent all the budget on the blood and the
baby heads. But something that bothered me a little bit,
(10:52):
And I don't know how other people felt about it,
because I can see how it would be cathartic. Is
the character's gonna show feels so free to express their anger.
And I kept thinking, No, you can't just like take
a baseball bat to a bunch of white men's cars.
You will die. It's the nineteen fifties and you're a
black woman. No, you can't be a black woman covered
in blood added as club, You're you're going to get shot. Um.
(11:16):
There were a lot of moments where I felt in
the book the characters felt a tremendous pressure to be
very polite, to be very differential, and that was what
part of what built so much suspense for me and
so much tension in the book. And the characters in
the TV show do not feel that way, and um,
maybe that is a more pleasurable feeling for modern viewers.
(11:40):
For me, I just watched her bash for the cars
with a baseball bat and thought, like, they they'll shoot you,
Like these people have guns, they will shoot you, and
they will say it's because you're a violent criminal. I
think part of that attitude to read. I mean, not
to put words in the mouth of people who made
the show, but I think it does go back to
a sort of that conscious decision of making the real
(12:03):
enemy the supernatural in this world of racism where it's
like even consider the the episode the second story in
the book where Laticia buys the house and the third
episode in the series, the enemy the real big bad
in the short story where those white boys who break
in and she had to sort of figure out how
to use and harness the spooky power of the house
(12:27):
to her own advantage, even if it meant, you know,
working with the racist old wizard. Wherein this the big
bad that she has to conquer is the spooky, haunted house. Yeah,
but the white people can still, like I mean, should
still exist and be an ever present threat in the world.
(12:48):
I feel like it wasn't ever present threat. And she
did get arrested, and I think one of the things
that the show makes clear is that Leticia has been
arrested a bunch, so that's not necessarily a fear that
she has. And also she's not alone when she does that.
I think it would be very different if she didn't
have the support and the the um firepower of her friends.
(13:09):
They're like, there were multiple guns on her side, and
they stood there holding their guns. And to this day,
I think that there is a fear that exists in
white people of black people with guns, which is why
it's so interesting that people who are big Second Amendment
people do not stand up for black people with guns.
So like Philando Castile, he had a gun in his
(13:31):
possession when he got shot by the police, and he said, Hey,
I have a registered firearm. I'm going to pull it
out and show you, and then they shot him right
and n r A. People don't stand up in that instance,
And I thought that it was really a show of
care and support that wordlessly, all of these guys went
and grabbed their guns so that she could express her anger.
And I think that she had been trying very hard
(13:53):
not to and we find out that she'd made twenty
one complaints to the police. She did. It's sort of
that the riot is the language of the un situation.
She did everything she was supposed to do, and I
think that they didn't do a great job of showing
her doing everything she was supposed to do, because like
nobody wants to see her file paperwork, and make complaint.
But I think that in the story it is there,
(14:14):
and I don't think that it is a zero to
sixty anger. I think that it was a slow boil
over ten days. I mean it was ten days and
she filed one complaints. And you know that one thing
in the show that I thought the show did really
well to sort of show the insiduousness of like systemic
racism that wasn't in the book was in the Ruby
episode with the other black girl who gets tired as
(14:37):
the shopkeeper instead of her, and you and you find
out gradually that the manager only hired this thinner, uh,
younger woman who was objectively less qualified because he's like, well, yeah,
because then you know, we can fire her and we
can show like that all black people are like that
and unqualified and bad at it. And also because he
(14:59):
wanted to sleep brother. Yeah also that yeah probably, yeah,
I mean the assaulted her. But just like the way
he said that around, thinking that Ruby was like a
white person that he could confide that in was so
sickening and that was definitely a moment that wasn't in
the book that I really appreciate it. Yeah. In addition
(15:20):
to that, too, like Ruby with the other shop store
workers the word I've never said before, the other like
the shop girls, yes, shot girls, Yeah for them, for
them too. It's I mean, I think I think in
a position like that, like your black folks, and like
(15:43):
other women of color are like what do what do
white people say when we're not around? Not like in
that situation, And she got to stand there and listen
to these people be horribly racist and and and that
was an additional scene from the book that I also like,
really found as a as a compelling use of her
(16:04):
being like, yeah, metamorphed into a white woman. Yeah, that
was great. I didn't like snak peanuts. Let's talk to
some of her sponsors. You're listening to Popcorn Book Club
for My Heart Radio, and we'll be back right after
the break. So we're back with Popcorn book Club for
(16:33):
My Heart Radio. Yeah, I did miss the fact that Hillary,
as the white lady character is called. That name came
from Ruby's ambition to do things like climb out Everest
and her interests outside of working in a shop and
working like it's it's sad to me that on the
(16:56):
show her biggest ambition is to work in that shop.
And I know that in the book she does eventually
go and like try and get a job that she
wouldn't have been able to get otherwise. But we also
know that she wants to travel an adventure, and that's
one of the reasons that she looks into being like
an airline hostess. A word. I've also never said, what
(17:22):
do we call the flight attendant? I'm like, what's the word?
What is? And of course I spend a lot of
time on the manager, which is its own thing, And
because I don't want to have to be the one
to talk about what she does, because that I'm not
a screamish person, but that one I didn't even know
(17:44):
made me squeamish. Yeah, me too. I'm sorry that was
really uncomfortable for me. Yeah, who's going to be brave enough?
Who wants to describe what happens with the manager? Oh gosh,
I'll do it, Dan, You sounded like you were going
to the guillotine, So I'll do it. Um. So Ruby
(18:05):
sees that this manager guy hits on the other black
lady who's working at the store, and then she is like, Hmmm,
what am I gonna do? Because um, what's her face? Christina?
Was it Christina or was it what's this William? William
William who can tell them apart? My friend referred to
them as the Arian twins. Very funny. Um. So she
(18:31):
is like, she's asked the question, who are you really? Uninterrupted,
and she's like, you know what, I Am going to
get revenge on a white person and it's this man
because she feels like he has taken advantage of his
position of power. And she's like, no, what you're not
gonna do is take advantage of your position of power
and use it to subjugate this black woman and then
act like you're going to fire her because she's not
(18:51):
good at her job, which she isn't, but that's your
fault for hiring her when she was vastly underqualified, when
they have been receiving applications from Ruby herself, who was
very qualified. So if they were interested in integrating, they
had qualified applicants that they did not take advantage of,
which is a whole other thing because there's just this
level of um, like Ruby's larger and she's a little
(19:11):
bit older, like we had talked about earlier. But anyway,
so she goes in as Hillary and she acts like
she's going to seduce this manager man and then she
does a really good job. She does a great I
will say that actress is phenomenal. I enjoyed her so much.
She contains multitudes and I really liked her when she
was Dell in the beginning to and just like the
(19:34):
transformation from episode two to episode five for that actress
was just yeah, she's incredible. But so she does this
little seduction and then she like blindfolds him if I
remember correctly. And then that's when she changes and she
takes off her high heeled chew and she shoves it
up his butt and like just reck. And it's not
(19:59):
it's not even like a sexual it's like a full unstabbing. Yeah,
it's a back in the butt. It is a very
uncomfortable for viewers. And I'm sure for him right now
in the butt a butt stabbing. Yeah, And it's I mean,
it is an assault, and it is an assault born
out of revenge. And I don't like any sexual assault
(20:20):
on screen. And that's not an exception because I know
that he did a bad thing. But like we're I mean,
we can't say, oh, it's okay for people to assault
people when they're bad people, because then we're making you
decide like who's a bad person who deserves it, which
is yucky. So I felt uncomfortable with that addition story.
(20:41):
It reminds me a little bit of when people choice
about prison rape, when someone terrible like Harvey Weinstein goes
to jail and you suddenly see thousands of comments on
Twitter saying like, ha ha, you're gonna get ripe in prison.
It's gonna be great. No, I still don't want that.
I don't want rape to be happening to anybody under
any circumstances. And that feels like exactly what happened here.
(21:05):
And it's like I get that it's a television show
and that there's like a cartharsist and a power shift,
but visually I think maybe on purpose, they made it
difficult to watch. I mean the teen reasons why I
did a similar thing. And I think their second season
where somebody gets assaulted with a broom handle and that
was not in the book and they show it. I
(21:28):
know they showed space while it was happening spoiler alert
for a few er two seasons behind on Yeah, Like,
what are the ethics of showing like a rape on
T I just like what why. I mean, my thing
about it is I don't like it and I don't
think it's good, But I'm not going to like write
(21:49):
a letter about it. I mean, I guess I am
going to talk on a podcast about it. But I mean,
there are so many shows that do this and that
are run by white people. And if I'm like, I'm
going to hold this to a higher standard than the
white shows that do this, then what does that say
about me? I will also go on the record is
saying with this podcast, I found those episodes of Game
(22:11):
of Thrones hard to watch. I skip that whole season.
There's there's one particularly bad season. I just like I
didn't I didn't watch it well for me, I mean,
I know this isn't a Game of Thrones episode, but
the Sanset thing was interesting because it's like, so many
people have been assaulted before, and why is Sansea that
(22:32):
assaulted one? Right, So it's sort of like it was
the femininity, and it's I think speaks to the frigility
of white femininity that people uphold and they're like, oh, Sansea.
That's where I draw the line totally correct. I think
I peeled out like season two because I was like this,
all of this is bad. Well, look, I guess there's
(22:52):
a question in my mind, because I do think there
are shows or movies that might seems upon the fact
that a character is right, and maybe we should be
unflintsick in looking at what that looks like and how
horrifying it is, and maybe there's something to be said
for that. But I don't know if in this one,
(23:13):
or frankly if in a lot of episodes of Game
of Thrones, it's really the essential lynchpin that keeps the
story moving forward. Um, would it have worked as well
if she just like beat the ship out of that guy? Um? If?
I mean, was there was there an option there that
wasn't raping him? I think a lot of television shows
(23:33):
and visual medium use sexual violence to shock viewers on
hers and again no reaction, but she's like bloody skinned
and transforming in front of us. There's so much shock
happening already. Yeah, I think that's it's a problem. Sometimes
I have that people paint strong female character sometimes with
(23:55):
a very broad brush, And I thought that I liked
that Ruby was a little different than Letitia. That's her
strength was a softer or more feminine strength. And that
it was more practical, but she was still like an
essential and sexual person, but in a different way than Letitia.
And I think sometimes Hollywood is so used to having
(24:16):
a badass female character that they just pushed the badass
female character button and it's one a little one size
fits all. Yeah, that a strong female character just means
somebody who behaves as a man would if he was
suddenly forced to wear a dress and deal with the
limitations that accompany femininity, and that that's not necessarily true.
We should I would hope gravitate towards seeing strong female
(24:40):
characters as being characters who are able to make decisions
and take control over their lives and make decisions that
they think are going to align with their values of
what they want, and I think the book does a
really beautiful job of that. One of the other things
that bothered me was that Letisa gets a romance so
immediately and so forth fully in the television show. I
(25:02):
love the fact that Latisha's big dream was she was
going to start a boarding house and it was going
to be really great and she was going to be
a successful business owner. Um I liked the Ruby's trajectory
where she didn't know exactly what she wanted to do
with her life, and she figured that out by the end.
Those were really lovely arts to me, but they feel
(25:23):
like maybe much smaller arts than the TV show has
chosen to give the characters, and television shows tend to
always say, a very attractive male lead, very attractive female lead,
gotta get him kissing. That's all we gotta do together.
Want I mean, I wish it was. Of course that
(25:43):
is what audiences want, but it would be It would
have been such a great opportunity just to show like
a strong, respectful friendship between like opposite gendered folks, like
people too hot, people can be friends. Yeah, we are
all hot and we are all friends. We were speaking
(26:10):
about femininity and transformation, and I feel like that is
the segue to the other big change from the show,
which is Christina instead of William slash Christina slash William.
How do you How do you guys feel about that?
For recap in case you haven't watched the show yet
but are listening to this anyway. In the book, it
(26:32):
was just sort of a character of William, who is
Samuel Braithwaite's uh son. In this it is Christina who
is his daughter, and William was just sort of like
skulking around as sort of a butler, but not really,
and then it's revealed that it's Christina taking poly juice potion.
This William is also like an alex Scars Guard knockoff,
like like even down to the ras venus. I'm here
(26:58):
for it. I'm not complaining in the car sunglasses down.
I love the Alexander's Scars Guard archetype, and I think
that that's should that should be in most the show,
just like voice barely above a whisper and always all
(27:21):
right here yea. I will say um in terms of
characters being turned into female characters when they were male characters. Initially,
I enjoyed the complex nature of Christina's relationship with the
sons of Adam, and I think that it does give
dimension to the story. But I don't know why Horace
(27:42):
was changed to Diana, and I don't think that it's
added much to the story. And I yet, I don't
know because we haven't gotten to the Devil Doll or
whatever it's equivalent will be on the show, so I
don't know how that's going to pan out. But so far,
I'm just kind of like, Okay, I mean, yeah, more
women on screen, always happy about that, but why yeah,
(28:02):
I totally get it. Where for Christina, it's like very
clear they want to bring up issues of like white
feminism and complicity and the ways that even like a
white lady would want to transform into a white man
to feel that kind of privilege. But you're a we
we've gotten Diana, but she hasn't done anything yet. And
I think that with killing Uncle George, I think that
(28:23):
it could be really fascinating to see Hippolyta as they
call her on the show. It pains me to say
it that way because I'm just like, that's not what
I was trained in Shakespeare, but I want to respect
the show and the way that it's pronounced on the show.
But Hippolyta would be raising Horace without a father, and
(28:43):
I think that there is a lot of, uh, there's
a lot of conversation about black men in America being
raised without fathers and what that looks like when America
demonizes and vilifies the black man and you don't have
this sort of role model, and so it's like, who's
going to be his role model? Is it going to
be montros Is gonna be tick. So I think that
that could be really interesting and we sort of do
(29:06):
not see that in the same way with Diana, And
I will say that that actress is phenomenal, and I
think that she is adorable and funny and has good
comedic timing and is interesting thus far. But I just
I'm curious to the the story of it and why
in the writer's room they were like, no, now, let's
change her. So that's that's what I'm wondering. It could
(29:29):
be an interesting thing because the power with the devil Doll,
right is like that the fear of the racist representations
where there is no shortage of the way young black
women are racistly portrayed in the media. So it could
be and just speculating that they wanted to do more
with that. M Yeah, I wonder too if some of
(29:51):
it is like I think there's such a trope of
sci fi and like comic book writing is such a
like young male pastime, young male interest, And I totally
agree with what you're saying drama that it would have
been interesting to see Horace's horse, but I wonder if
that is what they're playing at two, that like this
(30:13):
young girl is like drawing comic books and like super
into sci fi, super into comics, and I hope more
of that gets talked about as we move forward. What
an amazing point to stop talking and get some ads in.
This is Popcorn book Club. We'll be right back after
this quick break. Okay, we're back with Popcorn Book Club,
(30:45):
coming back a little bit to the anger, which I
know can be cathartic. Something I really loved about these
characters in the book was a kind of gentle pragmatism
of them, that these are all very practical, very sensible people,
and they have to be the surper live and I
feel like a little bit of that has been lost
for the sake of drama in the television show, so
(31:06):
that they can have more dramatic couplings and be thrown
into more dramatic situations. And I guess that makes for
better television. Maybe what I want is for this to
be like a BBC drama where people have like very
quiet conversations over coffee and try to make the best
possible choices to keep everybody safe. But midway that but
(31:29):
I do miss that a bit. I think that there
is just because of the legacy of Martin Luther King Jr.
Formerly known as Mike King, which is just again mind
blowing um. But I think because of his legacy, there
is this sort of view of the past of black
people being very complacent and very like you said, respectful
(31:53):
in the ways that they're addressing racism. And I do
like that we're seeing this story from the past, and
it's not just yes or yes ma'am. It's black people
who were like, Okay, you've been torturing me for ten days.
I'm gonna funk your ship up, I'm going to destroy
your car. And with the exception of Ruby, it's not
about like actively harming the white people, but it is
(32:14):
about showing like, I'm not going to take this lying down.
And I think that that is very important, and I
think that there is for a lot of black people
this reluctance to be seen as angry because you get
labeled as this angry black person. It is like, but
there's so much to be angry about, and there's so
much to be angry about still today, and it just
(32:34):
sort of feels similar to the well I feel like
they should protest in a different way sort of feeling
that people have been expressing recently so I think that, yes,
there are a lot of reasons for them to be restrained,
and I think in the book that does show more
of that. But I also think that that speaks to
the fact that the book was written by a white
person and the show is helmed by black people like
(32:55):
Misha Green and Jordan Peele m and Jordan peele who
is biracial, and he does have, you know, a white
mother as well, so I think that he can sort
of he gets he's visibly black, so it's not like
he's living in the white world unencumbered, but I think
that he comes at it from a different perspective. Yeah,
(33:15):
And I also thought that the plotting moved ahead quickly
to a point where like even in the first episode
when they were talking about this about the Sundown County,
like I didn't think like the map was clear in
my head of where they were going, even though I
had read the book, Like it just happened very fast.
And I also think that has something to do with
like a television show needing like one clear through line story,
(33:40):
where the book did feel like they were very distinct
stories that then all kind of came together in the
end where they were like Okay, no, we are going
and making this one show with one storyline, and so
I think, um, the pacing is different a little bit.
M hmm. What is Is there a thing about the
(34:03):
show that you guys love, one thing that you were like,
I think they're doing this really really well. There is
so much to love about this series. Um, Like even
just from getting to see this world on screen is
so amazing, Like the sets, the costumes, all of that,
(34:27):
the effects and everything, and and I like, I do
think that this this series is doing a very good
job of both showing the horror of the monsters and
the horror of the racism as well. Like we are
getting a full range of like you know, there's the
cross burning that's on the front yard, and then we're
(34:48):
also seeing like police being violent and like in and
that in the scene where Latitia is handcuffed in like
the cop holds onto the thing and the the driver's
just going back and forth, and so like, I think
there there is a good balance of those things, and
I think that seeing that at this time is so
(35:12):
important and very compelling. Right now, for sure, I was
gonna say, I think it's like visually is stunning, and
the actors are all great almost across the board, and
just it. It gives you a lot to chew on
as you watch it, and then you sit with it,
like once the shock of the gore wears off. I
find myself just like sitting thinking about an episode for
(35:34):
like a full five minutes. I will say what I
enjoy about the show. But I wanted to address something
that happened in episode two when they had these visions.
There was the tenis snake that so deeply traumatized jen Um,
and it was upsetting. It was upsetting to all of us.
But um there there was the the woman from Korea
(35:57):
in the army uniform that was attacking, and then there
was also Tick's mom in uh in George's room, and
um there were They were all being watched by the
members of the Sons of Adam during their like cocktail hour,
which to me sort of spoke to the idea that
like the primarily white viewership of HBO is watching these
(36:20):
horrors happened to black people, and I thought that was
really interesting in terms of holding up a mirror to society.
I really enjoy the sort of meta criticism of that,
which I think is really interesting because I mean, HBO
does have shows like The Wire where people it's like, oh,
we're looking at black people in the ghetto and watching
(36:41):
how they live. And it is an incredible show from
what I've heard because I've never watched it, that delves
into interesting characters and stuff like that. But still at
the end of the day, it is about It's not
as much about black triumph and black joy. Um to
HBOS credit, I will say they have a black lady
sketch show. They have Insecure. I'm not saying they only
traffic black pain, but it is something that media in
(37:03):
general does. But something I really enjoy about the show.
I briefly mentioned this earlier. I like how it positions
itself in history in a way that I felt the
book did not. So like one of Diana's friends is
Emmett Till, and I thought that was really interesting and
that they didn't like if you knew, you knew, but
if you didn't know, it wasn't like and look now
it's Emmett Tail. They were just regular people living their
(37:26):
regular lives. And it was really sad because he was
with the wigi aboard. He was like, oh am, I
gonna enjoy my trip and it said no, and I'm like,
oh or not um um. And something else that I
really enjoy is just the multitudinous of blackness, like the
multitudinous nature of blackness that the show has. So we've
talked about how Ruby is different from Letitia, and just
(37:48):
because I feel like, as we all know, there is
a blackness as monolith narrative and a lot of black
media that is starting to shift. And it's weird because
it was it wasn't like that in the nineties, and
then it was like and then now it's sort of
shifting out of it again. So I hope that we
stay in the out of it and there are more
shows like this that show that there are Mantroses and
(38:09):
George's and they get to be different, but all be
black and all still you know, keep their black cards,
and that they all get to have agency in this
Like I think that is something like they all even
though all these in the so these characters are experiencing
all of these terrible things, both magical and real, they
(38:29):
all have agency, which is not always the case. Yeah
in some in some stories they're the sidekick, and then
some story they're the hero. Everyone they all and hero
no one wants to go through this, but they're all
are the focal point of a story except for Uncle George. Yeah,
and like in a different show, I think someone like
(38:50):
Letty would have been, you know, a sidekick to Tick.
But I love in that third episode where she grabs
a map and she literally like jumps down the rope
into the tomb and I'm like, oh, your hands, um,
And like she has that moment where Tick tries to
stop her in Montrose, and I love that scene where
she was like, you act like you're the only one
(39:11):
that this is happening to, Like I was shot at
he was kidnapped, Like, I think that is so exciting
because like that doesn't happen in every show for like
a female, like a black female character, So having to
see that is like very exciting. And Journey is hot. Yeah,
and I love the Journey is first build on the show.
She is number one. M h. It's her show is
(39:36):
good really everybody, and it is so good. I just
have to say, my favorite character that has no bearing
on the story at all, just like a little co
Star was the little boy in the library in episode
was reading Journey to the Center of the Earth. I
love a rule following kid who has to like tell
(39:58):
the adults that they're out of line. That's such character.
I hope he comes back, but I hope he does
in that realm of camp. Okay, have any of you
watched The Floor is Lava? No? I haven't. It's such
a good quarantine shop. Watching this so silly and stupid.
(40:22):
But when when Tick puts his hand into the door
in episode three before the tomb and then the like
rope ladder drops down, I was like, this feels just
like guts or like the production value of that moment
felt very where. No one could ever build the shrine
(40:44):
of the Silver Monkey. It's three pieces and it's a
monkey head and feet and what do you think, Well,
it's probably very stressful, but you're doing there are a
lot of lights everywhere. You're a child. Yeah, they know
what they signed up for. They do a walk through
before with the kids, so they let them do everything.
Oh well, yeah, ostensibly seen the show talk about it.
(41:11):
Oh gosh, the Legends in the Hidden Tumble What a
what a what a show that does not hold up
and is so problem what what storylines do you think
or predict you will see from the book that haven't
been touched on yet, or that you would want, that
you would like to see in the rest of the episodes.
(41:33):
I'm really interested in the devil doll and how they're
going to handle that. I don't think that Hippolyte is
going to go to another planet, because they actually say
at a certain point that the um, what's the spinny
thing he called? They have a loss for that. No, no, no,
not the actually the solar system model thing. There's a
word for it. Oh it starts, what's it's airline hostess,
(41:55):
That's what it is. Yes, but the worry she says,
isn't that the key to Hiram's time machine? Yeah? I
mean that could be an H two Wells reference because
that h I was gonna drop that and be like
that h might have stood for hire Um it did not,
(42:17):
but well so, and then like I watched them, I
watched the episodes again, and I watched them on HBO Max,
not the screeners that they gave us, because you get
to see the little like coming up this season, And
there was like a thing where she looked like Hippolyta
looked like she was in ancient Rome or something. So
I think that she's not going to space, She's going
(42:40):
to time. Doctor who nice little twist you since you
watched on HBO, did you notice any changes in the
special effects? Just out of my own career? Okay, I
thought this. I mean I thought the some of the
stuff looked a little better. I don't remember any I
(43:04):
don't remember noticing anything. Oh, we have never addressed the
weird birth scene that happened in episode two. That was weird.
O the yeah, that was weird. She Christina goes to like,
there's a cow that's breaching, but it's a monster. Yea,
(43:26):
she makes a monster baby. It's I think I get
that out. I think I really did. I think I
was like, this is so off. I don't even I
can't even remember it. It's very strange that they made
the decision not only to show like the dark thing
(43:47):
lurking in the forest, which the book just like alluded to,
but they show it in detail and then they're like,
that's not enough. We should show you. Everyone's gonna wonder
how they were born now to answer that question. They
come from those question on everybody's lips. I'm excited to
see Hippolytis story as well. Um whether it is time
(44:10):
travel or space travel. I'm excited to get more of her.
She seems like a fascinating character on the show. I
love that when Stastic, when George dies, she just starts
ripping out pages of Dracula, which is bizarre also very
disturbing in like, oh she's in pain. Way. Um. Something
(44:30):
I'm curious about is the Korean War and the Korean
character that has shown up and is on the credits,
so I think it's coming back. And I saw in
the preview thing that like there are more Korean people.
So she's on the phone with him at the end
of episode five, Right, is that her? That's her? Right?
Definitely her. I checked that. I'm curious to see that. Yeah,
(44:56):
she was my favorite Real World cast member. She didn't
know she was she was on the real World. Yeah,
she was in the real World. I don't I don't
watch the Real World, Like yes, oh gosh, am I
lying now? No, I'm I'm one positive because I remember,
(45:16):
do you confuse to Asian people? No? No, actually I
remember watching MTV and being like an Asian person, And
I will follow her career after this. We must be
so satisfying. Yeah, she goes under her San Diego and
(45:36):
the spinoff Real Real World Road Rules Challenge. I loved
those seasons too. I feel that way about Karamo Brown,
especially because our names are instagrams of each other. I
always forget that he was on Real World back before
he was out out of the closet yep, yep. I
(45:57):
saw him on an episode next once and that was funny.
Was next? That is very funny. I always wonder what
happened to those people. That episode has been scrubbed from
the internet to the show. Oh, I wanted to say
what I was excited for. Um, I love like a
heist and a con and then that feeling when everyone
gets one over on the person, which I was like,
(46:18):
but then it's gone, like the end devotion to Liven.
So I really hope that a similar thing happens Christina
at the end of the series, just because I love
a ragtag group coming together and that would be so fun.
I wonder. So I was thinking, sorry, this is changing
the subject again in terms of queer representation. Would the
(46:40):
show have been fundamentally different if just Christina and Ruby
were lean super hot. When at the end of that
that episode where she turns William turns into Christina, I
was like, yeah, yeah, this is what we wanted. Why
not from the beginning? Um, but then there's you know,
the jaty Trump of evil gay people. So this make
(47:04):
Christina what's the world? What, what's the what's the status there?
And maybe she's I mean yeah, yeah, but yeah. So
there are a lot of interesting changes. I think we
can all agree. Just like a visually stunning and compelling show.
But next week we are diving into a different world.
(47:25):
We're going into a dare I say, brave new world.
I couldn't even do that. I'm so sorry, I'm gross.
Oh forgive me. Similarly to Lovecraft Country, we'll be talking
about the book and the show, but since the show
is already out on Peacock, we'll be reading the book,
discussing the book, and then discussing the show right after.
(47:46):
And I don't know if you've started spoiler alert. Our
next book is Rebecca. And I want to fully apologize
to Jennifer because I was like kind of being stodgy
and being like, oh, it's gonna be like old fashioned,
and I secretly thought that it was going to be
like kind of boring. And I am like fifty pages
and I am enthralled. I just want to definitely apologize
(48:07):
for thinking that it would be like Stagy in my
worst impulses. Thank you for listening to Popcorn book Club.
We'll be back next week talking about Brave New World.
Nail that. Thank you, Jenniver. That's our show for the week.
Thank you so much for listening. I'm Danish Schwartz and
(48:30):
you can find me on Twitter at Danish Schwartz with
three z's. You can follow Jennifer Wright at Jen Ashley Right,
Garama Downqua is at Garama Drama, Melissa Hunter is at
Melissa f t W and Tan Tran is smart enough
to have gotten off Twitter, but she is on Insta
at Pink Tina. Our executive producer is Christopher Hessiotes and
we're produced and edited by Mike Johns. Popcorn book Club
(48:53):
is a production of I Heart Radio. See you next week.
Hey, they're friends. So I don't know what your Twitter
timeline looks like, but if it's anything like mine, Every week,
like clockwork, it has been filled with people absolutely freaking
out about HBO's Lovecraft Country. How scary it is, how surprising,
how interesting and refreshing a show it is. We covered
the book a few episodes ago, and now that the
show is about halfway through its season, we are returning
(00:26):
to a Lovecraft Country to talk about how the adaptation
compares to the source material. In the book, the most
horrifying thing is always a racism that these characters have
to experience, and in the TV show, the most horrifying
thing is not the racism. The most horrifying thing is
your body babbing, its skin peeled off. And also there's
a sneak penis, and there was a snake penis. Yeah
(00:50):
it was the one that Yeah, yeah, the snake penis
really got me. Welcome back to Popcorn Book Club. I'm
joined by Tian Trans, Jennifer Right, and Karama down Qua. Uh.
Today is screen time what I newly dubbed this segment
where brand new information to everyone, but the up for workshops,
I just thought I thought of it and ran with
(01:10):
it where we discussed the adaptations of the books that
we've discussed on this show. And today we're going back
to love Craft Country to talk about the HBO adaptation,
which is a departure. I think I can say comfortably, Yeah,
it left that very different. I will say personally, I
(01:32):
was kind of all in on this show and it's
like camp horror gore until episode five, where the gore
got a little too much from were out of control wildly.
I was saying, no, no, no, I don't want it.
I don't want the episode five. So I know that
(01:53):
we're starting kind of at the end because we're just
talking about the first five episodes. But um, I will
say that one of my worst fears is having my
skin removed, and episode five played into that. And it's
funny because whenever I tell people that, they're like, let's
into a weird thing to be a rain of, and
I'm like, then, why does it keep coming up in
media all the time in scary things like in Buffy
(02:16):
the vampire Slayer Willow Flade, what's his face? Warren? And
what's it called? The Silence of the Lambs, which I
didn't watch love was an adult so it's not because
of that. There was Buffalo Bill who was like, what
if I made a skin suit out of fat girls?
And I'm like, I'm a fat girl. Did you watch
Did you watch Birds of Prey the Harley Quinn movie.
(02:36):
I did watch. I did watch Birds of Prey. YEP. Basically,
there's there's space space removing. I did not enjoy and
it's a thing that people don't notice all the instances
of it unless you're like afraid of it. So I'm like,
what's happening again? So episode five was literally my worst nightmare.
I was like screaming watching it next to my mom
(02:57):
and she was like, what's wrong with you? I think Also,
it does change the tone of the story because in
the book it was more like this deal with the
devil type thing, where it's like, you have this fantasy
and what's the cost? Is it going to cost your soul?
And in the TV show it's like it's a deal
with the devil, It's gonna cost you your soul. And
also existential horror. And one of the things that I
(03:26):
really liked about the book was it feels like in
the book, the most horrifying thing is always the racism
that these characters have to experience, and in the TV show,
the most horrifying thing is not the racism. The most
horrifying thing is your body bebingnet skin peeled off. And
also there's a sneak penis and snake. There was a
(03:46):
snake penis. Yeah, the snake the one that Yeah, the
snake penis really got me another, Jennifer, You're so right that, Like,
I think part of that is because it's a TV
show and so it has to be visual where it's
like a lot of the racism they described in the
book is settle, but they also just fall on ad
scary imagery like a baby head monster. Yeahs baby had
(04:10):
monster made me laugh because it was I think I
was so it was something I didn't expect at all,
and it's appearance. I was like, okay, well we have
baby head monster. Now baby head monster. If you're just
listening and don't recall that off the top of your head,
but how could you not? I think that was episode
(04:31):
uh three where Letty buys the haunted house and it's
a little different. Instead of working with the old racist
white ghost, she vanquishes him with the help of all
the creepy uh ghost Monsters. I will say episode three
had something that is totally something I really enjoyed about
(04:54):
the show, which is that it placed it. It felt
more in the contact of nineteen fifty five and of
what was happening. So we had Letty with all of
her artist friends moving in, and like one of them
was James Baldwin and they're all like at a party
talking about Martin Luther King Jr. And how he changed
his name from Michael to Martin, which was brand new
(05:17):
information for me. I did not know that, um, and
I felt embarrassed that I didn't know that. But I
asked a couple of other people and they also didn't
know that, so I felt And there were black people too,
so I was like, Okay, I get to keep my
black herd today. But the point of this show in
that episode where I was like, oh, this show means
business is when that guy got decapitated by the elevator.
(05:37):
But then we get like a full few seconds of
the blood pumping up. Of all the episodes, I loved
the third episode just because I felt like Karma, like
you said, like they I think they centered so much
how this group, this group of people are like dealing
with white supremacy at this time, and I think that
like four and five do that as well. But there
(05:59):
full they're there are added elements from the the show
that are not in the book that we're wild, that
I think are wild choices that I don't think served
the story. Well, is it the gay stuff in episode five?
Because for me, it's the gay stuff in episode five
it's all it's all the queer stuff to me specifically,
just because like I feel like it's so glaring. Um,
(06:21):
especially in episode four. Loved all the like Indiana Jones
esque like may I mean, I love like a booby
trap and a puzzle that needs to be solved and disintegrating.
My favorite trope of like any sort of like narrow
thing that people walk across is like at the beginning,
they're like, oh my god, I'm gonna fall, and then
they just like sprint across towards the middle of it. Um.
(06:45):
So loved that. But the like introduction of yahima Um,
the indigenous character two Spirited, was just so token izing
and done with such little care that it was like
very upsetting to see that in one hand, you know,
addressing white supremacy and how black folks have to deal
(07:05):
with it is being done with such care, and then
like it's not being it's not being thought of intersectionally.
At that moment felt like a missed opportunity. It also
felt to me and again we had the serious hasn't
finished yet, that Mantros is being closeted, hasn't served the
story yet. That it felt like a sort of a
(07:27):
strange interstitional where we pull away and see that and
then come back to this main story that's completely unrelated. Yeah,
like love a drag ball love the love the acknowledgment
that like ballroom culture comes out of black culture, but
also in the larger context of this story that we've
been telling, it just felt very um unmoored. It didn't
(07:49):
make sense in its placement. I didn't understand why it
was the story we were telling. It didn't for me,
really give Montrose much character growth. And it just felt
like somebody was like, we should because it have queer characters,
and I'm like, but also maybe have them as part
(08:10):
of the story, or have their queerness be part of
the story. Have it saved somebody, have it be important
in some way other than just like hey, information, or
even have like a spooky lovecraft thing happen in that culture,
Like you couldn't even like some of this is sort
of interconnected stories that happen in different locations, and if
they were interested in exploring like black ballroom culture, they
(08:32):
could have done some some spooky lovecraft stuff there. Yeah,
and especially with Montre, Like I at the very end
with the ballroom culture, I loved that scene and I
loved seeing him like, you know, enjoy himself and finally embrace.
But I'm like, why couldn't we have that from the beginning,
Like what was what was the point of making it
like a salacious reveal in episode three and then also
(08:55):
like a bizarro like back Ali d J in the
first episode, Like neither of those things needed to happen. Well,
the interesting other Mantrose mystery element. Uh obviously spoiler alert
everything on this podcast. But they decided to kill off
George in the second episode, and they also maybe I
(09:18):
read too much into this, did they sort of implied
that George was Atticus as real father implied that, Yeah,
there's a lot of soap op stuff going on these
So I think that the thing about implying that Montrose
was not Atticus is real father was uh an early
hint at Montrose's queerness as well, because um, we also
(09:43):
have the fact that George is involved with atticus mother
as she appears to him in this vision when they're
in their rooms. And I have more to say on
the being in the rooms thing later with the visions,
but um, I also thought that the I was having
this guession with one of my friends about the show
because a lot of my friends have been texting me
about the show, and she read the book as well.
(10:07):
So shout out to my friend Margaret whoo whoop who
read the book and watched the show, and she was like, well,
in the book, I felt like nobody was ever dying.
So like three stories in, I felt like, Okay, I'm
not worried that any of them are actually going to die.
And I thought that was a really interesting point how
there was a departure from that where we have a
main character that we're like, oh, I read the book,
(10:29):
I know is going to be fine, And then they
were like gone, sort of Game of Thrones, ask um,
So I feel like that, in a way is them
telling us, hey, it's not safe for anyone. This isn't TV. Yeah,
they spent all the budget on the blood and the
baby heads. But something that bothered me a little bit,
(10:52):
And I don't know how other people felt about it,
because I can see how it would be cathartic. Is
the character's gonna show feels so free to express their anger.
And I kept thinking, No, you can't just like take
a baseball bat to a bunch of white men's cars.
You will die. It's the nineteen fifties and you're a
black woman. No, you can't be a black woman covered
in blood added as club, You're you're going to get shot. Um.
(11:16):
There were a lot of moments where I felt in
the book the characters felt a tremendous pressure to be
very polite, to be very differential, and that was what
part of what built so much suspense for me and
so much tension in the book. And the characters in
the TV show do not feel that way, and um,
maybe that is a more pleasurable feeling for modern viewers.
(11:40):
For me, I just watched her bash for the cars
with a baseball bat and thought, like, they they'll shoot you,
Like these people have guns, they will shoot you, and
they will say it's because you're a violent criminal. I
think part of that attitude to read. I mean, not
to put words in the mouth of people who made
the show, but I think it does go back to
a sort of that conscious decision of making the real
(12:03):
enemy the supernatural in this world of racism where it's
like even consider the the episode the second story in
the book where Laticia buys the house and the third
episode in the series, the enemy the real big bad
in the short story where those white boys who break
in and she had to sort of figure out how
to use and harness the spooky power of the house
(12:27):
to her own advantage, even if it meant, you know,
working with the racist old wizard. Wherein this the big
bad that she has to conquer is the spooky, haunted house. Yeah,
but the white people can still, like I mean, should
still exist and be an ever present threat in the world.
(12:48):
I feel like it wasn't ever present threat. And she
did get arrested, and I think one of the things
that the show makes clear is that Leticia has been
arrested a bunch, so that's not necessarily a fear that
she has. And also she's not alone when she does that.
I think it would be very different if she didn't
have the support and the the um firepower of her friends.
(13:09):
They're like, there were multiple guns on her side, and
they stood there holding their guns. And to this day,
I think that there is a fear that exists in
white people of black people with guns, which is why
it's so interesting that people who are big Second Amendment
people do not stand up for black people with guns.
So like Philando Castile, he had a gun in his
(13:31):
possession when he got shot by the police, and he said, Hey,
I have a registered firearm. I'm going to pull it
out and show you, and then they shot him right
and n r A. People don't stand up in that instance,
And I thought that it was really a show of
care and support that wordlessly, all of these guys went
and grabbed their guns so that she could express her anger.
And I think that she had been trying very hard
(13:53):
not to and we find out that she'd made twenty
one complaints to the police. She did. It's sort of
that the riot is the language of the un situation.
She did everything she was supposed to do, and I
think that they didn't do a great job of showing
her doing everything she was supposed to do, because like
nobody wants to see her file paperwork, and make complaint.
But I think that in the story it is there,
(14:14):
and I don't think that it is a zero to
sixty anger. I think that it was a slow boil
over ten days. I mean it was ten days and
she filed one complaints. And you know that one thing
in the show that I thought the show did really
well to sort of show the insiduousness of like systemic
racism that wasn't in the book was in the Ruby
episode with the other black girl who gets tired as
(14:37):
the shopkeeper instead of her, and you and you find
out gradually that the manager only hired this thinner, uh,
younger woman who was objectively less qualified because he's like, well, yeah,
because then you know, we can fire her and we
can show like that all black people are like that
and unqualified and bad at it. And also because he
(14:59):
wanted to sleep brother. Yeah also that yeah probably, yeah,
I mean the assaulted her. But just like the way
he said that around, thinking that Ruby was like a
white person that he could confide that in was so
sickening and that was definitely a moment that wasn't in
the book that I really appreciate it. Yeah. In addition
(15:20):
to that, too, like Ruby with the other shop store
workers the word I've never said before, the other like
the shop girls, yes, shot girls, Yeah for them, for
them too. It's I mean, I think I think in
a position like that, like your black folks, and like
(15:43):
other women of color are like what do what do
white people say when we're not around? Not like in
that situation, And she got to stand there and listen
to these people be horribly racist and and and that
was an additional scene from the book that I also like,
really found as a as a compelling use of her
(16:04):
being like, yeah, metamorphed into a white woman. Yeah, that
was great. I didn't like snak peanuts. Let's talk to
some of her sponsors. You're listening to Popcorn Book Club
for My Heart Radio, and we'll be back right after
the break. So we're back with Popcorn book Club for
(16:33):
My Heart Radio. Yeah, I did miss the fact that Hillary,
as the white lady character is called. That name came
from Ruby's ambition to do things like climb out Everest
and her interests outside of working in a shop and
working like it's it's sad to me that on the
(16:56):
show her biggest ambition is to work in that shop.
And I know that in the book she does eventually
go and like try and get a job that she
wouldn't have been able to get otherwise. But we also
know that she wants to travel an adventure, and that's
one of the reasons that she looks into being like
an airline hostess. A word. I've also never said, what
(17:22):
do we call the flight attendant? I'm like, what's the word?
What is? And of course I spend a lot of
time on the manager, which is its own thing, And
because I don't want to have to be the one
to talk about what she does, because that I'm not
a screamish person, but that one I didn't even know
(17:44):
made me squeamish. Yeah, me too. I'm sorry that was
really uncomfortable for me. Yeah, who's going to be brave enough?
Who wants to describe what happens with the manager? Oh gosh,
I'll do it, Dan, You sounded like you were going
to the guillotine, So I'll do it. Um. So Ruby
(18:05):
sees that this manager guy hits on the other black
lady who's working at the store, and then she is like, Hmmm,
what am I gonna do? Because um, what's her face? Christina?
Was it Christina or was it what's this William? William
William who can tell them apart? My friend referred to
them as the Arian twins. Very funny. Um. So she
(18:31):
is like, she's asked the question, who are you really? Uninterrupted,
and she's like, you know what, I Am going to
get revenge on a white person and it's this man
because she feels like he has taken advantage of his
position of power. And she's like, no, what you're not
gonna do is take advantage of your position of power
and use it to subjugate this black woman and then
act like you're going to fire her because she's not
(18:51):
good at her job, which she isn't, but that's your
fault for hiring her when she was vastly underqualified, when
they have been receiving applications from Ruby herself, who was
very qualified. So if they were interested in integrating, they
had qualified applicants that they did not take advantage of,
which is a whole other thing because there's just this
level of um, like Ruby's larger and she's a little
(19:11):
bit older, like we had talked about earlier. But anyway,
so she goes in as Hillary and she acts like
she's going to seduce this manager man and then she
does a really good job. She does a great I
will say that actress is phenomenal. I enjoyed her so much.
She contains multitudes and I really liked her when she
was Dell in the beginning to and just like the
(19:34):
transformation from episode two to episode five for that actress
was just yeah, she's incredible. But so she does this
little seduction and then she like blindfolds him if I
remember correctly. And then that's when she changes and she
takes off her high heeled chew and she shoves it
up his butt and like just reck. And it's not
(19:59):
it's not even like a sexual it's like a full unstabbing. Yeah,
it's a back in the butt. It is a very
uncomfortable for viewers. And I'm sure for him right now
in the butt a butt stabbing. Yeah, And it's I mean,
it is an assault, and it is an assault born
out of revenge. And I don't like any sexual assault
(20:20):
on screen. And that's not an exception because I know
that he did a bad thing. But like we're I mean,
we can't say, oh, it's okay for people to assault
people when they're bad people, because then we're making you
decide like who's a bad person who deserves it, which
is yucky. So I felt uncomfortable with that addition story.
(20:41):
It reminds me a little bit of when people choice
about prison rape, when someone terrible like Harvey Weinstein goes
to jail and you suddenly see thousands of comments on
Twitter saying like, ha ha, you're gonna get ripe in prison.
It's gonna be great. No, I still don't want that.
I don't want rape to be happening to anybody under
any circumstances. And that feels like exactly what happened here.
(21:05):
And it's like I get that it's a television show
and that there's like a cartharsist and a power shift,
but visually I think maybe on purpose, they made it
difficult to watch. I mean the teen reasons why I
did a similar thing. And I think their second season
where somebody gets assaulted with a broom handle and that
was not in the book and they show it. I
(21:28):
know they showed space while it was happening spoiler alert
for a few er two seasons behind on Yeah, Like,
what are the ethics of showing like a rape on
T I just like what why. I mean, my thing
about it is I don't like it and I don't
think it's good, But I'm not going to like write
(21:49):
a letter about it. I mean, I guess I am
going to talk on a podcast about it. But I mean,
there are so many shows that do this and that
are run by white people. And if I'm like, I'm
going to hold this to a higher standard than the
white shows that do this, then what does that say
about me? I will also go on the record is
saying with this podcast, I found those episodes of Game
(22:11):
of Thrones hard to watch. I skip that whole season.
There's there's one particularly bad season. I just like I
didn't I didn't watch it well for me, I mean,
I know this isn't a Game of Thrones episode, but
the Sanset thing was interesting because it's like, so many
people have been assaulted before, and why is Sansea that
(22:32):
assaulted one? Right, So it's sort of like it was
the femininity, and it's I think speaks to the frigility
of white femininity that people uphold and they're like, oh, Sansea.
That's where I draw the line totally correct. I think
I peeled out like season two because I was like this,
all of this is bad. Well, look, I guess there's
(22:52):
a question in my mind, because I do think there
are shows or movies that might seems upon the fact
that a character is right, and maybe we should be
unflintsick in looking at what that looks like and how
horrifying it is, and maybe there's something to be said
for that. But I don't know if in this one,
(23:13):
or frankly if in a lot of episodes of Game
of Thrones, it's really the essential lynchpin that keeps the
story moving forward. Um, would it have worked as well
if she just like beat the ship out of that guy? Um? If?
I mean, was there was there an option there that
wasn't raping him? I think a lot of television shows
(23:33):
and visual medium use sexual violence to shock viewers on
hers and again no reaction, but she's like bloody skinned
and transforming in front of us. There's so much shock
happening already. Yeah, I think that's it's a problem. Sometimes
I have that people paint strong female character sometimes with
(23:55):
a very broad brush, And I thought that I liked
that Ruby was a little different than Letitia. That's her
strength was a softer or more feminine strength. And that
it was more practical, but she was still like an
essential and sexual person, but in a different way than Letitia.
And I think sometimes Hollywood is so used to having
(24:16):
a badass female character that they just pushed the badass
female character button and it's one a little one size
fits all. Yeah, that a strong female character just means
somebody who behaves as a man would if he was
suddenly forced to wear a dress and deal with the
limitations that accompany femininity, and that that's not necessarily true.
We should I would hope gravitate towards seeing strong female
(24:40):
characters as being characters who are able to make decisions
and take control over their lives and make decisions that
they think are going to align with their values of
what they want, and I think the book does a
really beautiful job of that. One of the other things
that bothered me was that Letisa gets a romance so
immediately and so forth fully in the television show. I
(25:02):
love the fact that Latisha's big dream was she was
going to start a boarding house and it was going
to be really great and she was going to be
a successful business owner. Um I liked the Ruby's trajectory
where she didn't know exactly what she wanted to do
with her life, and she figured that out by the end.
Those were really lovely arts to me, but they feel
(25:23):
like maybe much smaller arts than the TV show has
chosen to give the characters, and television shows tend to
always say, a very attractive male lead, very attractive female lead,
gotta get him kissing. That's all we gotta do together.
Want I mean, I wish it was. Of course that
(25:43):
is what audiences want, but it would be It would
have been such a great opportunity just to show like
a strong, respectful friendship between like opposite gendered folks, like
people too hot, people can be friends. Yeah, we are
all hot and we are all friends. We were speaking
(26:10):
about femininity and transformation, and I feel like that is
the segue to the other big change from the show,
which is Christina instead of William slash Christina slash William.
How do you How do you guys feel about that?
For recap in case you haven't watched the show yet
but are listening to this anyway. In the book, it
(26:32):
was just sort of a character of William, who is
Samuel Braithwaite's uh son. In this it is Christina who
is his daughter, and William was just sort of like
skulking around as sort of a butler, but not really,
and then it's revealed that it's Christina taking poly juice potion.
This William is also like an alex Scars Guard knockoff,
like like even down to the ras venus. I'm here
(26:58):
for it. I'm not complaining in the car sunglasses down.
I love the Alexander's Scars Guard archetype, and I think
that that's should that should be in most the show,
just like voice barely above a whisper and always all
(27:21):
right here yea. I will say um in terms of
characters being turned into female characters when they were male characters. Initially,
I enjoyed the complex nature of Christina's relationship with the
sons of Adam, and I think that it does give
dimension to the story. But I don't know why Horace
(27:42):
was changed to Diana, and I don't think that it's
added much to the story. And I yet, I don't
know because we haven't gotten to the Devil Doll or
whatever it's equivalent will be on the show, so I
don't know how that's going to pan out. But so far,
I'm just kind of like, Okay, I mean, yeah, more
women on screen, always happy about that, but why yeah,
(28:02):
I totally get it. Where for Christina, it's like very
clear they want to bring up issues of like white
feminism and complicity and the ways that even like a
white lady would want to transform into a white man
to feel that kind of privilege. But you're a we
we've gotten Diana, but she hasn't done anything yet. And
I think that with killing Uncle George, I think that
(28:23):
it could be really fascinating to see Hippolyta as they
call her on the show. It pains me to say
it that way because I'm just like, that's not what
I was trained in Shakespeare, but I want to respect
the show and the way that it's pronounced on the show.
But Hippolyta would be raising Horace without a father, and
(28:43):
I think that there is a lot of, uh, there's
a lot of conversation about black men in America being
raised without fathers and what that looks like when America
demonizes and vilifies the black man and you don't have
this sort of role model, and so it's like, who's
going to be his role model? Is it going to
be montros Is gonna be tick. So I think that
that could be really interesting and we sort of do
(29:06):
not see that in the same way with Diana, And
I will say that that actress is phenomenal, and I
think that she is adorable and funny and has good
comedic timing and is interesting thus far. But I just
I'm curious to the the story of it and why
in the writer's room they were like, no, now, let's
change her. So that's that's what I'm wondering. It could
(29:29):
be an interesting thing because the power with the devil Doll,
right is like that the fear of the racist representations
where there is no shortage of the way young black
women are racistly portrayed in the media. So it could
be and just speculating that they wanted to do more
with that. M Yeah, I wonder too if some of
(29:51):
it is like I think there's such a trope of
sci fi and like comic book writing is such a
like young male pastime, young male interest, And I totally
agree with what you're saying drama that it would have
been interesting to see Horace's horse, but I wonder if
that is what they're playing at two, that like this
(30:13):
young girl is like drawing comic books and like super
into sci fi, super into comics, and I hope more
of that gets talked about as we move forward. What
an amazing point to stop talking and get some ads in.
This is Popcorn book Club. We'll be right back after
this quick break. Okay, we're back with Popcorn Book Club,
(30:45):
coming back a little bit to the anger, which I
know can be cathartic. Something I really loved about these
characters in the book was a kind of gentle pragmatism
of them, that these are all very practical, very sensible people,
and they have to be the surper live and I
feel like a little bit of that has been lost
for the sake of drama in the television show, so
(31:06):
that they can have more dramatic couplings and be thrown
into more dramatic situations. And I guess that makes for
better television. Maybe what I want is for this to
be like a BBC drama where people have like very
quiet conversations over coffee and try to make the best
possible choices to keep everybody safe. But midway that but
(31:29):
I do miss that a bit. I think that there
is just because of the legacy of Martin Luther King Jr.
Formerly known as Mike King, which is just again mind
blowing um. But I think because of his legacy, there
is this sort of view of the past of black
people being very complacent and very like you said, respectful
(31:53):
in the ways that they're addressing racism. And I do
like that we're seeing this story from the past, and
it's not just yes or yes ma'am. It's black people
who were like, Okay, you've been torturing me for ten days.
I'm gonna funk your ship up, I'm going to destroy
your car. And with the exception of Ruby, it's not
about like actively harming the white people, but it is
(32:14):
about showing like, I'm not going to take this lying down.
And I think that that is very important, and I
think that there is for a lot of black people
this reluctance to be seen as angry because you get
labeled as this angry black person. It is like, but
there's so much to be angry about, and there's so
much to be angry about still today, and it just
(32:34):
sort of feels similar to the well I feel like
they should protest in a different way sort of feeling
that people have been expressing recently so I think that, yes,
there are a lot of reasons for them to be restrained,
and I think in the book that does show more
of that. But I also think that that speaks to
the fact that the book was written by a white
person and the show is helmed by black people like
(32:55):
Misha Green and Jordan Peele m and Jordan peele who
is biracial, and he does have, you know, a white
mother as well, so I think that he can sort
of he gets he's visibly black, so it's not like
he's living in the white world unencumbered, but I think
that he comes at it from a different perspective. Yeah,
(33:15):
And I also thought that the plotting moved ahead quickly
to a point where like even in the first episode
when they were talking about this about the Sundown County,
like I didn't think like the map was clear in
my head of where they were going, even though I
had read the book, Like it just happened very fast.
And I also think that has something to do with
like a television show needing like one clear through line story,
(33:40):
where the book did feel like they were very distinct
stories that then all kind of came together in the
end where they were like Okay, no, we are going
and making this one show with one storyline, and so
I think, um, the pacing is different a little bit.
M hmm. What is Is there a thing about the
(34:03):
show that you guys love, one thing that you were like,
I think they're doing this really really well. There is
so much to love about this series. Um, Like even
just from getting to see this world on screen is
so amazing, Like the sets, the costumes, all of that,
(34:27):
the effects and everything, and and I like, I do
think that this this series is doing a very good
job of both showing the horror of the monsters and
the horror of the racism as well. Like we are
getting a full range of like you know, there's the
cross burning that's on the front yard, and then we're
(34:48):
also seeing like police being violent and like in and
that in the scene where Latitia is handcuffed in like
the cop holds onto the thing and the the driver's
just going back and forth, and so like, I think
there there is a good balance of those things, and
I think that seeing that at this time is so
(35:12):
important and very compelling. Right now, for sure, I was
gonna say, I think it's like visually is stunning, and
the actors are all great almost across the board, and
just it. It gives you a lot to chew on
as you watch it, and then you sit with it,
like once the shock of the gore wears off. I
find myself just like sitting thinking about an episode for
(35:34):
like a full five minutes. I will say what I
enjoy about the show. But I wanted to address something
that happened in episode two when they had these visions.
There was the tenis snake that so deeply traumatized jen Um,
and it was upsetting. It was upsetting to all of us.
But um there there was the the woman from Korea
(35:57):
in the army uniform that was attacking, and then there
was also Tick's mom in uh in George's room, and
um there were They were all being watched by the
members of the Sons of Adam during their like cocktail hour,
which to me sort of spoke to the idea that
like the primarily white viewership of HBO is watching these
(36:20):
horrors happened to black people, and I thought that was
really interesting in terms of holding up a mirror to society.
I really enjoy the sort of meta criticism of that,
which I think is really interesting because I mean, HBO
does have shows like The Wire where people it's like, oh,
we're looking at black people in the ghetto and watching
(36:41):
how they live. And it is an incredible show from
what I've heard because I've never watched it, that delves
into interesting characters and stuff like that. But still at
the end of the day, it is about It's not
as much about black triumph and black joy. Um to
HBOS credit, I will say they have a black lady
sketch show. They have Insecure. I'm not saying they only
traffic black pain, but it is something that media in
(37:03):
general does. But something I really enjoy about the show.
I briefly mentioned this earlier. I like how it positions
itself in history in a way that I felt the
book did not. So like one of Diana's friends is
Emmett Till, and I thought that was really interesting and
that they didn't like if you knew, you knew, but
if you didn't know, it wasn't like and look now
it's Emmett Tail. They were just regular people living their
(37:26):
regular lives. And it was really sad because he was
with the wigi aboard. He was like, oh am, I
gonna enjoy my trip and it said no, and I'm like,
oh or not um um. And something else that I
really enjoy is just the multitudinous of blackness, like the
multitudinous nature of blackness that the show has. So we've
talked about how Ruby is different from Letitia, and just
(37:48):
because I feel like, as we all know, there is
a blackness as monolith narrative and a lot of black
media that is starting to shift. And it's weird because
it was it wasn't like that in the nineties, and
then it was like and then now it's sort of
shifting out of it again. So I hope that we
stay in the out of it and there are more
shows like this that show that there are Mantroses and
(38:09):
George's and they get to be different, but all be
black and all still you know, keep their black cards,
and that they all get to have agency in this
Like I think that is something like they all even
though all these in the so these characters are experiencing
all of these terrible things, both magical and real, they
(38:29):
all have agency, which is not always the case. Yeah
in some in some stories they're the sidekick, and then
some story they're the hero. Everyone they all and hero
no one wants to go through this, but they're all
are the focal point of a story except for Uncle George. Yeah,
and like in a different show, I think someone like
(38:50):
Letty would have been, you know, a sidekick to Tick.
But I love in that third episode where she grabs
a map and she literally like jumps down the rope
into the tomb and I'm like, oh, your hands, um,
And like she has that moment where Tick tries to
stop her in Montrose, and I love that scene where
she was like, you act like you're the only one
(39:11):
that this is happening to, Like I was shot at
he was kidnapped, Like, I think that is so exciting
because like that doesn't happen in every show for like
a female, like a black female character, So having to
see that is like very exciting. And Journey is hot. Yeah,
and I love the Journey is first build on the show.
She is number one. M h. It's her show is
(39:36):
good really everybody, and it is so good. I just
have to say, my favorite character that has no bearing
on the story at all, just like a little co
Star was the little boy in the library in episode
was reading Journey to the Center of the Earth. I
love a rule following kid who has to like tell
(39:58):
the adults that they're out of line. That's such character.
I hope he comes back, but I hope he does
in that realm of camp. Okay, have any of you
watched The Floor is Lava? No? I haven't. It's such
a good quarantine shop. Watching this so silly and stupid.
(40:22):
But when when Tick puts his hand into the door
in episode three before the tomb and then the like
rope ladder drops down, I was like, this feels just
like guts or like the production value of that moment
felt very where. No one could ever build the shrine
(40:44):
of the Silver Monkey. It's three pieces and it's a
monkey head and feet and what do you think, Well,
it's probably very stressful, but you're doing there are a
lot of lights everywhere. You're a child. Yeah, they know
what they signed up for. They do a walk through
before with the kids, so they let them do everything.
Oh well, yeah, ostensibly seen the show talk about it.
(41:11):
Oh gosh, the Legends in the Hidden Tumble What a
what a what a show that does not hold up
and is so problem what what storylines do you think
or predict you will see from the book that haven't
been touched on yet, or that you would want, that
you would like to see in the rest of the episodes.
(41:33):
I'm really interested in the devil doll and how they're
going to handle that. I don't think that Hippolyte is
going to go to another planet, because they actually say
at a certain point that the um, what's the spinny
thing he called? They have a loss for that. No, no, no,
not the actually the solar system model thing. There's a
word for it. Oh it starts, what's it's airline hostess,
(41:55):
That's what it is. Yes, but the worry she says,
isn't that the key to Hiram's time machine? Yeah? I
mean that could be an H two Wells reference because
that h I was gonna drop that and be like
that h might have stood for hire Um it did not,
(42:17):
but well so, and then like I watched them, I
watched the episodes again, and I watched them on HBO Max,
not the screeners that they gave us, because you get
to see the little like coming up this season, And
there was like a thing where she looked like Hippolyta
looked like she was in ancient Rome or something. So
I think that she's not going to space, She's going
(42:40):
to time. Doctor who nice little twist you since you
watched on HBO, did you notice any changes in the
special effects? Just out of my own career? Okay, I
thought this. I mean I thought the some of the
stuff looked a little better. I don't remember any I
(43:04):
don't remember noticing anything. Oh, we have never addressed the
weird birth scene that happened in episode two. That was weird.
O the yeah, that was weird. She Christina goes to like,
there's a cow that's breaching, but it's a monster. Yea,
(43:26):
she makes a monster baby. It's I think I get
that out. I think I really did. I think I
was like, this is so off. I don't even I
can't even remember it. It's very strange that they made
the decision not only to show like the dark thing
(43:47):
lurking in the forest, which the book just like alluded to,
but they show it in detail and then they're like,
that's not enough. We should show you. Everyone's gonna wonder
how they were born now to answer that question. They
come from those question on everybody's lips. I'm excited to
see Hippolytis story as well. Um whether it is time
(44:10):
travel or space travel. I'm excited to get more of her.
She seems like a fascinating character on the show. I
love that when Stastic, when George dies, she just starts
ripping out pages of Dracula, which is bizarre also very
disturbing in like, oh she's in pain. Way. Um. Something
(44:30):
I'm curious about is the Korean War and the Korean
character that has shown up and is on the credits,
so I think it's coming back. And I saw in
the preview thing that like there are more Korean people.
So she's on the phone with him at the end
of episode five, Right, is that her? That's her? Right?
Definitely her. I checked that. I'm curious to see that. Yeah,
(44:56):
she was my favorite Real World cast member. She didn't
know she was she was on the real World. Yeah,
she was in the real World. I don't I don't
watch the Real World, Like yes, oh gosh, am I
lying now? No, I'm I'm one positive because I remember,
(45:16):
do you confuse to Asian people? No? No, actually I
remember watching MTV and being like an Asian person, And
I will follow her career after this. We must be
so satisfying. Yeah, she goes under her San Diego and
(45:36):
the spinoff Real Real World Road Rules Challenge. I loved
those seasons too. I feel that way about Karamo Brown,
especially because our names are instagrams of each other. I
always forget that he was on Real World back before
he was out out of the closet yep, yep. I
(45:57):
saw him on an episode next once and that was funny.
Was next? That is very funny. I always wonder what
happened to those people. That episode has been scrubbed from
the internet to the show. Oh, I wanted to say
what I was excited for. Um, I love like a
heist and a con and then that feeling when everyone
gets one over on the person, which I was like,
(46:18):
but then it's gone, like the end devotion to Liven.
So I really hope that a similar thing happens Christina
at the end of the series, just because I love
a ragtag group coming together and that would be so fun.
I wonder. So I was thinking, sorry, this is changing
the subject again in terms of queer representation. Would the
(46:40):
show have been fundamentally different if just Christina and Ruby
were lean super hot. When at the end of that
that episode where she turns William turns into Christina, I
was like, yeah, yeah, this is what we wanted. Why
not from the beginning? Um, but then there's you know,
the jaty Trump of evil gay people. So this make
(47:04):
Christina what's the world? What, what's the what's the status there?
And maybe she's I mean yeah, yeah, but yeah. So
there are a lot of interesting changes. I think we
can all agree. Just like a visually stunning and compelling show.
But next week we are diving into a different world.
(47:25):
We're going into a dare I say, brave new world.
I couldn't even do that. I'm so sorry, I'm gross.
Oh forgive me. Similarly to Lovecraft Country, we'll be talking
about the book and the show, but since the show
is already out on Peacock, we'll be reading the book,
discussing the book, and then discussing the show right after.
(47:46):
And I don't know if you've started spoiler alert. Our
next book is Rebecca. And I want to fully apologize
to Jennifer because I was like kind of being stodgy
and being like, oh, it's gonna be like old fashioned,
and I secretly thought that it was going to be
like kind of boring. And I am like fifty pages
and I am enthralled. I just want to definitely apologize
(48:07):
for thinking that it would be like Stagy in my
worst impulses. Thank you for listening to Popcorn book Club.
We'll be back next week talking about Brave New World.
Nail that. Thank you, Jenniver. That's our show for the week.
Thank you so much for listening. I'm Danish Schwartz and
(48:30):
you can find me on Twitter at Danish Schwartz with
three z's. You can follow Jennifer Wright at Jen Ashley Right,
Garama Downqua is at Garama Drama, Melissa Hunter is at
Melissa f t W and Tan Tran is smart enough
to have gotten off Twitter, but she is on Insta
at Pink Tina. Our executive producer is Christopher Hessiotes and
we're produced and edited by Mike Johns. Popcorn book Club
(48:53):
is a production of I Heart Radio. See you next week.
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