The Hate U Give (Part 1)

Just in case you are listening to this from the future, here’s a quick refresher that the summer of 2020 was… “unusual,” though there are a lot of other words we could use. It was notable for the Black Lives Matter protests and violent clashes with cops in cities across the country sparked by a number of black people being killed by police officers.

So it might be tempting to look at Angie Thomas’ 2017 novel The Hate U Give as prescient. But really, she’s writing about something that has been happening for decades, for centuries. This week we’re talking about Thomas’ novel and its 2018 film adaptation.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, there everyone, So just in case you are listening
to this from the future, here's a quick reminder that
the summer of was uh, let's say unusual. There are
a lot of other words I could use, but it
was also incredibly notable for the Black Lives Matter protests
and violent clashes with cops in cities across the country,
sparked by a number of black people being killed by

(00:27):
police officers. So it might be tempting to look at
Angie Thomas's two thousand seventeen novel They Hate You Give
as prescient, but really she's writing about something that has
been happening for decades, for centuries really in this country.
But we will get to that. This is Popcorn book
Club and this week we're talking about Thomas's novel and

(00:47):
it's film adaptation. And I promise you even dealing with
sensitive topics like these are commitment to correcting people remains spadfast.
She's been inaccurate. That just really get if I'm gonna
be hateful, do it right. So, without further ado, here's
Popcorn book Club. Hey, welcome back to Popcorn book Club.

(01:12):
I'm Danish Schwartz and joined as always by Karamad Unqua,
Jennifer Wright, Melissa Hunter, Antiene Tran. Hey, everyone, h I
hate you give Obviously, it was a book that came
out in two thousand seventeen and had a film version
in two thousand eighteen, But we are revisiting it now
for reasons that should be obvious. And also obvious should

(01:34):
be that I, Danish Wartz, I'm a white person, and
so I'm going to throw guidance of this conversation and
leadership of this conversation over to my friend, I am
a black person. You guys can't see realize that I
have one actual question for you, Karama, before you before
you take the Uh the issue so terrified? What's the question? No,

(02:01):
it's just the there's a big issue of of code
switching in this book and star the version of that
she is at home and the version she is at school.
You went to, uh as you've told me, not that
I'm guessing a predominantly white prep school, boarding school, fancy
fancy Virginia. Uh. What was that experience like for you? Well, well,

(02:28):
just to clarify, I did go to for three years
of high school. I went to in all girls boarding
school in central sort of basically northern Virginia, but like
rural northern Virginia in Loudon County, which is, fun fact,
one of the richest counties in the nation. And it
was an equestrian school, so most of the girls rode

(02:48):
horses and I did not ride horses. I owned zero horses.
My my roommates sophomore year horse girls school. Yes, I
went to horse girls school. I the horse girls have
become radicalized. I will say that, like my roommate from
sophomore year who had a horse named Jack, and she
showed me like a picture album of her, pictures of
her and Jack. Uh. And she now lives on a farm.

(03:10):
She met her husband on farmers only she's uh. And
she was she having sex with the horse. No, she
had a photo album of her and her horse. No,
she was not having sex with a horse. There was
a rumor spread about another girl at school that she
had performed falacio on a horse, and the rumor. The
worst part about that rumor is that somebody said that
I started it, and I was like, no, I did not.

(03:31):
I have nothing to do with this horse falacio rumor.
But back to the point, it's just ever since Catherine
the Great people just keep going with the same staring
back away from horse Falatio, staring it back to the
conversation of race. I did not come from uh like
horse background, but I did. My mom also went to

(03:53):
that school. I was one of the first sort of
legacies that was black. And I think that it is
important to note the blackness is not a monolith, and
stars experience in this book is not every black person's
experience in this book, and there's overlap was mine. I
did feel like I had to be different at school
than I was at home. Um. But the thing is
I lived at school, so that also makes it a

(04:15):
whole different situation where I was there like nine months
out of the year. Uh. And for me, I felt
like I was definitely encouraged to remember that my situation
in life was not the same as their situations in life,
so if I got in trouble, the consequences would be different.

(04:38):
And that was something that I think was always over me.
And I kind of got this reputation very early on
that I was a narc because I was like, if
you guys do anything that is bad, I will tell
on you because I'm not trying to be an accomplice
to anything. I'm not trying to affiliate myself with anything
that is untoward, and so that did not earn me
many friends early on, but as people got to know me,
I think they got to figure out out that, oh,

(05:01):
she's not an arch, she's just scared. So uh yeah,
I did go to a primarily white institution for high
school p w I for short, and I went to
one for college, and uh so that I have a
lot of experience with what Star went through in terms
of having a code switch and having these two worlds
and living and existing in a world where people are

(05:23):
very educated and have this idea of knowing a lot
about what's going on in the world, but still don't
really see you for who you are. And there's a
line I think it was in the movie, I don't
remember if it was also in the book, but Hailey
says to Star, Oh, you're different. And there's that sort
of feeling that like, oh, you're not like other black

(05:44):
people because you're a person that I understand that you're palatable,
and I feel like that's something that happens a lot
with black people who have a lot of white friends
and have a lot of non black friends in general,
and krama for listeners who maybe don't know. Can you
explain code switching? Oh? Absolutely, yeah. Code switching is something

(06:07):
that everyone does. Uh. Just to be clear, it's not
exclusive to black people, but a lot of times we
have conversations about it in relation to blackness. Code switching
is when the language and behaviors that you engage in
with one group of people you change them when you're
around another group of people. So we all code switch

(06:28):
in in smaller ways, like, oh, when I'm with my friends,
I don't talk the same way I talk at work
because that would be inappropriate unless you're us and you
can talk about horse Falacio both at work and with
your friends. US with black comedy writer, yes, that is true,
or a group chat does not have many conversations about

(06:50):
horse Falacio yet, so uh so, code switching for black
people in particular can be a switch from African American
Vernacular English also known as A A V E, sometimes
pejoratively termed ebonics into standard American English. So that's something

(07:11):
that some people in their neighborhoods, like Star says in
the book, and we'll get into plot in just a second,
but Star says, if a rapper would say it star
At Williamson Williamson, Oh, I know the name of the school.
Starr At Williamson would not say it. So there's this
sort of division of this is my academic language and

(07:32):
this is my I'm at home with my friends language,
even when she's in the social aspects of her school,
so not just in the classroom, but also when she's
talking to her peers. And there's also that scene in
the movie I think we also watched the movie where
she's like walking down the hall and all the white
kids are like those kids are lit, and she's saying
thank you. Yeah. That scene made me want to retch.

(07:56):
I just it was I mean, it was a visceral
reaction because we've all had it. And like, there are
people in my life, like people that have known for
a very long time, who will talk differently to me,
a black person, than they do to other white people
in their lives. Like, um, there is a family friend
who whenever I come over to their house, he's like, Oh,

(08:17):
what's up, dog, And I'm just like, I don't talk
like that. I legitimately don't, And I don't know why
you would talk to me like that, because you also
don't talk like that, and there's nothing wrong with talking
like that, but it's just not how either of us talk,
and it's the shift into that when my face walks
into the room. I've had to not catch myself. But

(08:38):
I have noticed sometimes on the internet, like with like
a Twitter slang that like cool teens are using, but
obviously and primarily comes from the black community, where sometimes
I'm like doing a meme and it's more in in
you know, like more casual language or slang that I
wouldn't really use, and I sort of have to catch
myself and being like, Okay, what am I trying to

(08:59):
do here? That's like not an accurate representation of myself.
So I think, like in watching this movie, it's so
easy and reading the book, obviously, like for Haley, who's
like the most villainous white character in the world, which
we'll get to, it's easy to dismiss and be like, oh, well,
I'm not like that, so I'm good. But I think
that it does sort of sneak up on people and

(09:20):
well meaning people in everything. There's a spectrum of all
of that stuff, and uh, it's easy to think because
I'm not one fifteen the cop, that I'm not engaging
in racist behavior, or because I'm not Haley, I'm not
engaging in racist behavior. But there are so many thousands
of things in between those two people and on the

(09:40):
other side of Haley that might seem more innocuous. But yeah,
let's get into some plot. Um, Melissa, do you want
to start us off? Oh gosh, sure, Sorry to throw
the intense beginning at you. You look serene and I
thought i'd put that up. Thank you so much. I
need to get out of my neutral space. Uh. So

(10:05):
we have Star Carter. She is our lead, our heroine. Um.
She is I believe sixteen years old. Is that correct? Um?
And she is going to a party with Kenya, who
we later learn is not her not related. She's not

(10:26):
related to Kenya, but they share a brother. They both
share a half brother on different sides, dad and mom respectively. So,
and it's a primarily black party, and or um, mostly
mostly black people are there, teenagers. It's it's a you know,
a really big party. And she feels very uncomfortable in

(10:48):
this space. She's not. She's not because she goes to
this prep school she is. Most of her social circle
is now white, so she feels a little bit un
off her footing. She doesn't. She feels self conscious because
she talks about how at her school she's the cool

(11:08):
black girl, because you, by nature get when you're around
a bunch of white people, they think you're cool and
say your shoes are lit um. But here everyone is
cooler than her, or at least she thinks so and Um.
She runs into Kenya has Um Uh is in sort
of a fight. She wants to fight with this girl

(11:29):
who I think there's some boy drama between them, and
so she goes off and Khalil, her old friend, comes
up to her, and they haven't seen each other in
a while, and they're talking and it's clear there's some
intimacy between them. They really care for each other and
he it's also you can tell there's like a little

(11:50):
bit of flirtation too. There's just a lot of layers
to this relationship. And then all of a sudden, shots
are fired in the party and everyone is scrambling to leave,
and Khalil grab star and says, come with me, and
so they go into his car and drive away and

(12:12):
they're driving. They're catching up some more Uh Khalil makes
either at the party or in the car. I forget
it seems to imply that he's has some money now,
and she's a little bit worried that it might be
related to drugs and um. And then all of a
sudden they get pulled over. And when they get pulled over,

(12:35):
we hear star sort of of what she's learned when
she had the talk with her parents when she was
younger about how to be safe as or as safe
as you can be as a black person with a
police when you're pulled over, and you, uh, you know,
are very polite. You don't make any sudden moves, you
answer their questions, you don't reach for anything too quickly.

(12:58):
So she's kind of reciting all that as this cop
is coming up, and the cop is immediately antagonistic and
suspicious of these two black teenagers, and Khalil is not
um abiding by stars sort of rules that she has

(13:18):
in her head of how to be safe with police present.
Is being a little bit more, a little bit more
of an attitude um in a way that is justified
because the cop is being very antagonistic and she gets
really worried. Um. But it escalates very quickly. Uh. They
the cops says to get out of the car for

(13:40):
Khalil to get out of the car and put his
hands I believe, on the top of the car while
he goes and runs his license and Star is getting
very scared and Khalil asks if she's okay, And in
the middle of Khalil asking if she's okay, he gets
shot and killed. Um. She runs out of the car

(14:03):
and Khalil dies in her arms, and it's very very sad.
Uh and uh and that at the cop also points
the gun at her um and someone else wants I
think that's a good place to I think it's a
good place to about that scene. Yeah. Can I make

(14:24):
one comment of a thing that I really like that
Angie Thomas did with the setup of this book. Was
she she made it. She gave it the sense that
it could have been a very different book. Like the
sexual chemistry between Kalil is really cute, and you're like, oh,
this is her former friend, but she has this white boyfriend.
Were in a different universe, this book would have been

(14:44):
about like a love triangle between a girl sort of
who feels herself caught between two worlds. Like I was
like wing for her and Khalil, I was like, oh
my god, are they going to kiss. They have this
chemistry and then this cop I mean like he kills
Khalil and cuts his life so or completely changes the
trajectory of the book. Yeah, And I think that's one
of the things that makes it especially tragic that it's

(15:08):
cut off that potential story, that it's cut off all
potential stories for I mean, it can't be a story
about him getting out of drug dealing or them both
getting to live in a better place. Um, although stories
are ended incredibly prematurely by an act of violence. I
think that we've talked a lot about some really heavy

(15:29):
stuff and we should just take a breather for a sec.
You're listening to Popcorn Book Club from my Heart Radio,
and we'll be back right after the break. So we're

(15:51):
back with Popcorn book Club for my Heart Radio. I mean,
I think the one thing that I would love to
talk about is that they listened to Tupac on the
way to to get back to UH Stars house and

(16:12):
they Khalil brings up the fact that thug life actually
means something much more than what I had never I
did not know this, um and that thug life stands
for they hate you give little infants, Fox everyone, which
is kind of a shorthand acronym for systemic racism, which
they talk about and then gets It's it's sort of

(16:33):
a theme that we keep coming back to that these
cycles of violence are because of you know, as we
as we were all starting to learn about like under resourced,
under underserved communities being forced into economic situations that they
can't break the cycle of because of state violence. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I thought it was interesting also that Melissa you

(16:57):
had talked about how there was an indication that Khalil
had money, and the indication, if I recall, was that
he had like this big earring with a diamond in it,
and he had these like new fresh sneakers, which she
did stuff and we get to see a little bit,
like Dana was saying, of the tension there because she's like, oh,
let me clean your sneakers because she's a sneaker head,

(17:19):
which I love. I love that she's a little sneaker head. Um.
I love Star just as a character, and she loves
Harry Potter and Karon Potter. I know. You know, I
kept going back to the Harry Potter thing as well,
because he kept reminding me how young these people were that. Um,
I think something that we as a society do is

(17:42):
sometimes we have prematurely adultified black children. And a lot
of times, when um, a black person gets shot by
the police, newspapers talk about how like they were a thug,
and it seems like they posted danger. And I think
if you look back to what you were like at fifteen,
those are those are just making Those are little people

(18:04):
who like Harry Potter, well that and that's something I
will I'm sure keep going back to. But what I
loved about this book was it was, you know, a
book about about systemic violence or violence against black people
and this incredible tragedy and all of the tragedies um

(18:25):
against black people. And at the same time it was
a young adult teenage drama. Like there's a teenage drama.
There's romance, there's like going to prom and then the
beginning it starts with a flirtation, and it it does
feel like black teenagers can't just be teenagers. And that's

(18:48):
the thing, like you you see over and over again,
like with her tumbler, I think it's a really good
example of how, like Hayley thinks, it's so disgusting posting
these pictures of them att till and it's like that's what,
that's what they're faced with, their face with that duality constantly.
And I think that was really well told. And we'll

(19:08):
get into m until stuff later. It's fine, we And
I think that also the fact that it's there's this
huge argument it's about tumbler again speaks to the fact
that these are teenagers in um like sen whose main
issues surround on this like microblogging social media platform that

(19:28):
was very cool at the time. Would just like, can
I just add that I love that it's a young
adult book, but I think everyone should read this book,
Like I think that is such it's like wonderful read.
It's so important and thoughtful, and like everyone should read
this book. It shouldn't beat as young adults. So anyone listening, like,
share it with everyone that you're that you're friends with,

(19:51):
not friends, enemies, anyone. Something I was wondering about a
little bit, since a lot of members of this group
are white, did anybody else have a conversation with their
parents growing up about what to do with please pull
you over? The most brief one and it was never
for your own safety. It was just like how always
have your registration on you. Yeah, you should keep that

(20:13):
in the glove compartment. Was the extent of the conversation
was have your registration. But well, when I was ten,
actually the cop pulled my mom over, and um, I
had not had a conversation with her at the time
about anything. And I remember recently I had been at
j C. Penny with my family friends and we had

(20:33):
all been like shopping at j C. Penny and then
my friend who was like my mom's friend's daughter, and
I were lagging behind and we get to the car
and we heard that, um, they got to see the
inside of a cop car, and I was super jealous
that I didn't get to see the inside of a
cop car. Um, because they like gave my friend's little
brother a tour. And I think that he also seems

(20:55):
less of a threat because he was younger. We were
all black. I think that's important to note he's younger
and he has down syndrome. He's not younger now. He's
like twenty two now, which is crazy to me. But
then I was super jealous that I hadn't gotten see
the inside of a cop car. So my mom gets
pulled over because she has like dead tags on her car,
which sometimes we all forget or we're just broke and

(21:16):
can't do it. Um. And it was like by a month,
it wasn't like years later anything. And the cop pulled
us over and I leaned over and I said, can
I see the inside of your car? And my mom
looked like she wanted to strangle me because she's like, please,
do not engage with police like that. Don't talk to them,

(21:36):
just let them. He did let me see the inside
of his car, which made me super happy at the time,
And now I hope to never see the inside of
a cop car ever again. But it's interesting because I
was just a kid in that sense and not with
the weight of this is the police under my decision making.
I was just like, Oh, my friend got to see

(21:58):
the inside of a cop car. I want to see
all the button um. But I also had the privilege
of not growing up in the same type of neighborhood
as Star Granma. I want to go back briefly to
the point that Ten made about this being a way book,
but it um, you know, really should be read by everyone.
You and I we texted about this briefly when we

(22:19):
started reading it, where it's like, there are certain advantages
to it being a y A story in that it
young people hopefully also will read this, like I've heard
stories about high school student traits, in which I think
it's also important to note that it was awarded a
couple of different awards by the American Library Association. So
it got the Cretis got King Award, obviously named for

(22:41):
Martin Luther King Jr's wife, Um, and that's for black
young adult books. And it also won the William C.
Morris Award, which was for first time young adult writers.
And it was on the National Book Award Young Adult
long List, so it's killing it in the y A game.
And it was highly recognized, and it was on the
New York Times bestseller list for over eighty weeks when

(23:02):
it first came out, So this was clearly something that
sparked something in people. But it was also banned by
several people, and there were fringe groups saying that it
was dangerous because it humanized the victims of police violence,
which just I don't know if that's why it was banned.
It does have a lot of swear words and a

(23:23):
penis joke at one point, which I thought was great
because that's life when you're sixteen. But I don't think
that the single penis joke in the book is the
reason that people were banning it. I think it's because
it was about race a lot. It humanizes the human
It does humanize the human beings. But yeah, I was
doing some reading on the book online and there are

(23:43):
people who were like, this is bad because of humanization,
and I was like, God, God forbid people see black
people as humans. I remember seeing someone on Twitter like
coming at Angie and the author and they were like, Um,
how am I supposed to take a book about black
people's seriously when the title spells out thug t h

(24:04):
U g ever think of that? And she's like, yeah,
literally she did, Like it's spelled purposely like you to
make that. They talked about it in the course like
a lot. It's it's probably the most recurring theme, but
it's someone most chief. It's someone who thought they found

(24:26):
the illuminating Beyonce might be stars cousin. They do talk
about that in the book, that they have the same
we have the same last name, and I'm like, that's
jay Z's last name. Calm down, you're related to jay
Z at best, which is not to slander jay Z
ja Z You're wonderful. I know you're listening to this

(24:47):
as we are a top podcast. Um, jay Z is
no Beyonce. I feel like we can all say and
are different people. Yes, that is what I will say.
But they could be like cousins in law, which would
be really cool. Yes, cousins by marriage. But so we've
talked about everything sort of accept the worst part of
that first segment, which is the shooting itself, and it

(25:11):
was really illuminating to see how Uh it was very
upsetting for me to watch it and film. It was
hard to read, but it was harder to watch. And uh,
it's interesting to see how she focuses on tiny details
like the badge number because her dad was like, make
sure you have a badge number, And for the rest

(25:32):
of the book she only refers to him by his
badge number, even after learning his name. And I think
also just her insistence like hey, Khalil, you need to
listen to to me. It also really shows that there's
a family cohesiveness in her life and there's like a
familial care in her life that wasn't in Khalil's life

(25:54):
because Khalil's mother has has a drug problem and isn't
fully present in his life. And I think that later on,
Star sort of blames his mother in a way for that,
because if someone had had to talk with him, he
might still be alive. Mm hmm, yeah, I hate you
give a little infants everyone. Yeah. Um. So I think

(26:22):
that also the fact that she was so overwrought with
emotion after this shooting happens, that she forgets everything that
she's been taught and she does run after him and
sort of put herself in danger. The gun probably wouldn't
have been pointed at her if she hadn't left the
car to go run to help Khalil Uh shows that
there's a love there for him, just a friend love,

(26:45):
maybe more because they did have a little kiss when
they were younger, but a friend love that supersedes everything
else and supersedes all of her training and conditioning to
not do these things, and that in a way, the
love is stronger been the hate that's been given by
the police and everything. Um yeah, I'm done. Yeah. And

(27:08):
it was so interesting to see Khalil's reaction to the
police because when you're when I was watching in the movie,
I was with Star you're like, just just put your
hands on the dashboard, just do what he says. But
you also recognize that like, yeah, from Khalil's perspective and
from the world's perspective, like it is absolute bullshit, like
the fact that the cop is treating him that way

(27:29):
and the fact that Khalil has had to deal with
that for his entire life, Like you're asking someone to
behave I'm putting air quotes around this rationally in an
irrational system. And one detail I forgot to mention was
that they're pulled over because of a broken tail light.
So it's not even for anything like any traffic violation,

(27:52):
not that that would cause any more reason to be
antagonizing the way that one fIF was, but it is
like that is his life and just being you know,
harassed constantly, and you understand exactly why you know, um,
he's like that, but but you also, yeah, you were

(28:12):
on star side outside of just like don't go back
into the house, you know, don't go into the basement.
You know, it feels like watching a horror movie. That's real.
There's no question in my mind that if Khalil had
been white and been openly antagonistic with the cop. It
would have been fine. I grew up in a wealthy

(28:32):
white community. There were kids who got pulled over and
told cops to go funk themselves, and it was like, well,
we'll talk to your father about this, young match. Um.
So yeah, I think it's very clear that this only
happened because of race, and that he was so trigger
happy that he was so ready to shoot at the

(28:55):
first sign of movement. I mean that is only because
Khalil was black. I um. And they do go into
that a little bit more in the movie than in
the book, the trigger happiness of the white the white
cop in the face of a black Uh. To use
a word, I guess suspect I don't like using that word.
But um. But something else that I thought, sorry, um

(29:20):
who um. Something else that I thought was really interesting
was the choice to make it a more specific visible
thing that Khalil didn't do in the in the movie,
because in the movie it wasn't a broken tail light,
it was failure to signal when changing lanes. And that

(29:43):
also caused the mind of course Sandra Bland, who got
pulled over for the same thing. And I thought that
it was interesting, And there were a couple of things
while watching the movie that made me wonder did a
white person write this? Which a white person did write this?
And that was the first thing, especially because I could

(30:04):
see watching the movie that his tail lights weren't out,
and I was like, oh, is this guy's still gonna
pull him over for a broken tail light? And in
the book, there's no way to tell whether or not
there was a legitimate, quote unquote legitimate reason to pull
him over because we don't see the tail light at
any point, so it doesn't matter whether it was something
that he did wrong or not. In the book, he

(30:25):
was pulled over and then he was treated poorly. And
this in the film version. I found it. I don't
want to stay upsetting, but I found it interesting that
one could justify them being pulled over objectively. I do.
I want to point out not that this just I
guess part of the conversation. Actually the screenwriter, Audrey wells Uh,

(30:46):
died of cancer the day the day before it was released. Yeah,
I also saw that God just its own weird tragedy,
But yeah I did. I was like, well, why out
of every screenwriter in Hollywood may be with what a
black person not right? This incredibly black species, every single screenwriter,
just there's so many people. There was also a moment

(31:08):
in the movie too that I found interesting that I
was like, Okay, this might be attributed to having a
white screenwriter. Is that they gave the cop a moment.
You got to see there was a moment where the
cop realized that he had sucked up. And to me,
that I think humanized it in a way that I

(31:30):
don't agree with necessarily in that situation, it was copaganda.
It's like it's Coppa. It was totally capaganda. And I
was like, ah, that wasn't exactly. They also made it
so that Khalil was actively reaching for the hairbrush and
like pulled the hair brush out, which in the book
he doesn't do the same way, and then the cop

(31:52):
like sees it and he's like ship And that's like
what you were talking about, Like the moment where he's like, oh,
I sucked up. Um. I think like a decision to
call him one fifteen throughout the book was like a
really choice on Andrew's part for that reason that you're
talking about, where it's like, for once, we're going to
humanize Kali. Yeah, I really appreciated that choice and it

(32:15):
felt so intentional throughout, Like, the only time you ever that,
the only time you ever see him again is in
this cappaganda interview with his father, and that's the only
time he is quote unquote humanized. But it is seen
through the lens of Star, which is which I felt
was of such a good choice because you were there

(32:37):
with her, not with them, and it is intentionally capaganda. Absolutely, Yeah,
it was very clearly. And I think they had mentioned
before he's probably going to do these interviews, and that
was one of the reasons that Starr was encouraged to
also do an interview. All right, so here, maybe it's
a good spot for for a little break. M hmm,
sounds great. This is Popcorn book Club. We'll be right

(33:07):
back after this quick break. Okay, we're back with Popcorn
book Club. Yeah, do you want to handle the next
part post shooting? Yes? Um, so, I think the cops
do not help Khalil and he dies in the street,

(33:30):
and it immediately triggers stars memory of another best friend
of hers who is murdered. We find out that Star
has a trio of best She's part of a trio
of best friends. It's her, Khalil and her friend Natasha
and Natasha is murdered by a gang violence, UM, and
it's kind of she's having this like flashback happening in

(33:52):
that moment. UM. The next day we get back to
I Believe uh stars home and she shares with her
parents that she really doesn't want to share or want
people to know that she was the witness at the
shooting at the murder um and because she's afraid of
the backlash. She knows that this could be become a

(34:14):
national news story and that she has seen what other
witnesses have had to experience of like online backlash, harassment,
death threats, um, and she doesn't want to put herself
in that position. UM. We also learn in these in
in this chapter that she has a love for Fresh Prince. UM,
that she's a huge fan of Will because in some

(34:36):
ways her and Will share a similarity in that they,
you know, went to a mostly like a predominantly white
private school. UM, and she kind of like relates to
Will in that way. And also she shares I think
that's when we find out that her boyfriend also likes
Fresh Prince to Chris, and that they have kind of

(34:58):
shared a shared love of Fresh Prince. It's their high
school love connection. UM. We also are introduced to Maverick
uh Stars dad and his You know that he really
has a lot of the with them, trying that a lot.
He takes a lot of his values in or follows

(35:18):
the lives his life through the rules and principles of
Black Panther Party and Black Power. UM. We learn about
the ten point Uh program. UM. And then we also
learned about stars relationship to King, that he is her
godfather and that he kind of is this villain in

(35:42):
the neighborhood. He is the big drug lord UM, and
that him and Maverick her dad have had a history,
which we will learn about more later on. And I
do think that we we briefly talked about it earlier,
but it's important to just note very clearly that the
boyfriend who also likes Fresh Prince Chris, he is white.
Oh yes, Chris is white. UM. Very important to make

(36:07):
sure we know that. And and then we move on
in Star weeks up from a nightmare and Uh finds
her parents and Uncle Carlos are talking about the murder
and Uncle Carlos wants start to testify, and it almost
I mean, it's already complicated that Uncle Carlos is a cop.

(36:28):
We find out that he's a cop, and he once
started to testify to almost maybe justify the shooting. He
doesn't say it as much, but there's kind of an
illusion of like trying to get to the truth of
the matter, and that Khalil might have been a drug
dealer and that maybe this is why this incident he
keeps calling it happens and Uncle Carlos, as Scart started

(36:52):
testify and she agrees despite being kind of terrified to
confront the police again. UM. We also learned at this
time that Uncle Carlos has stepped in as a father
figure while Maverick was in jail because Maverick was a
part of the King Lords, which we learn more about
later um, but that he actually went to jail because

(37:13):
he took the fall for King, so we will learn
more about later um. And then this chapter ends with
I believe the fam visits Khalil's grandmother and we learned
that he was dealing. We again don't get the full
picture and stars upset because we learned that Khalil's mother

(37:33):
was an addict. And so it's interesting that we get
these little tidbits about Khalil because almost as if Star
is also stereotyping Khalil as like this person who was
a drug dealer, how could he ever fall into that life?
And she hasn't fully grasped the full picture of why
someone like Khalil would have to resort to such resort

(37:54):
to something like that. Yeah, absolutely, I think that. Um,
the thing about Carlos being the father figure becomes complex
because there's this cop that she loves and there's this
cop that she hates right now, and how do you
reconcile those two things? And how do you fear and

(38:17):
hate the cops but also love and care for your
uncle who for the first like three or four years
of her life was the only father figure that she knew. Uh.
And also we get this the scene where we do
meet Khalil's mom, Miss Brenda, and she comes into the
clinic where Lisa Carter Stars mom works, and she is crying.

(38:42):
She's distraught. She's like, that killed my baby, and Star
blames her and she gets angry and she says like, oh,
now she wants to be his mother. And Lisa is
much more sympathetic and she says, no matter what she's done,
she's still his mother. And he's still gone, and I
think that that's an important and just this sort of
running theme of family and parents. And also when we

(39:08):
meet Maverick, we do get to find out a little
bit more about like you mentioned the Black Panthers and
then in the book. I found it really interesting that
they got rid of this in the movie. Again, the
thing that I was like, did a white person write this? Uh,
the whole praying specifically to black Jesus and making that
not not Jesus, specifically black Jesus. And there's a lot

(39:29):
of interesting religious stuff where they pray to black Jesus.
But also Maverick seems to sort of adhere to some
of the beliefs of the Nation of Islam and he
gets upset that there's pork in his house and he's
just like, don't eat that stuff. But he's not actually Muslim,
and he's not there's no indication that he is active

(39:52):
in the Nation of Islam. Which I don't know if
you all knew this, but the Southern Property Law Center
qualifies as a hate group, um, which is really interesting.
I did not know that. I mean, there's a lot
of complicated stuff with some people and very anti Semitic things.

(40:12):
Oh yeah, I didn't know about the until I saw it.
I was like, oh yeah, this sounds like a hate group. Yeah,
I would say, like like Louis Farrakon. It was who
was that like influencer who quoted Ferrikon and was like
who is this guy? Like it was, Oh, yes, that

(40:35):
was somebody I can't remember. Yeah. I think it was
Women's Smart And I think it was Jamill Legimil who
posted like a picture of Louis Ferakon and a and
a quote from him, and it was like a good
quote because you know, sometimes people with bad beliefs can
say Hitler was a great man. Yeah, so you should

(41:01):
maybe distance yourself from anybody who feels that way about Yeah.
Yeah and so and so you're like, all right, there's
there's nuance here. Do you shouldn't. Let's let's not hate
Jews or black people. I think that both. I think
we can stand as a podcast and say, don't hate Jews,
don't hate black people for being Jewish or for being black.
If like a black person like says a mean thing

(41:23):
to you, then you can be like, hey, you're a
mean person who was also black. You don't have to
love every single black person. But like maybe if they
say Hitler's great, don't Yeah, yeah, I'd like to go
on the record of saying that Hitler was not a
great man. He was a very bad man and a
mediocre artist too. Well, I'm glad that we as a

(41:47):
podcast are navigating these very controversial really well. I hope
we get more episodes after this. I think it's so
interesting of Angie. I just want to go back to
what you said, Karama about like, you know how the
medias and story media and stories like to make like

(42:08):
a monolith of black folks. And it's interesting that Maverick
and Carlos are two very specific black men responding to
white supremacy in different ways. One lives to fight it
with his family in the neighborhood. The other arguably assimilates
and wants to try and fix it from within, like

(42:29):
to see and he is just doing so much with
this book. It's just like so important. I would say
that each character navigates their blackness in a really different way.
And um, I thought it was interesting that in the
movie Lisa the mom had relaxed hair. Do you all
know what it means to have relaxed hair? Is that

(42:50):
a thing that you understand, not to like maybe you,
but I just know that sometimes non black people don't
know terms that are very common in the black community.
So for those of you listening who don't know what
that means, relaxing your hair is when you chemically straighten
it with a combination of chemicals like lie is one
of them. If you haven't seen Chris Rocks documentary Good Hair,

(43:13):
you should see it. It's incredible. Uh, it's like ten
years old at this point, but it's still really important,
really incredible to learn about black hair and just a
lot of the hatred and stereotypes that come with having
black hair in various forms. And there are a lot
of people who say that people who relax their hair

(43:34):
are trying to quote unquote be white or try to assimilate.
And um, I thought that was an interesting choice because
given the conversations that Maverick and Lisa tend to have
about her wanting to leave the neighborhood and her being like,
we need to move out of Garden Heights, that this
needs to happen now that she was the one that
had relaxed hair, and Starr has her hair and braids,

(43:56):
which is a protective style for natural hair, and so
stars kind of in this in between where she doesn't
have her natural hair, like fully out, but she has
this decidedly black hairstyle that is more quote unquote palatable
to white people. And I feel like they say a
lot in the movie with visual cues, like early on

(44:18):
when she's part of it, is like her mom uh
drives her from their neighborhood to this uh more wealthy
neighborhood into this predominantly white school and uh Starry is
wearing a hoodie, and when she gets to school, she
pulls the hood off and takes the hoodie off. But
then later in the film, when she finally sort of

(44:40):
embraces both sides of herself and becomes decides to just
be Star everywhere, when she confronts Haley, she's wearing a
hoodie with a hoodie with the hood up, and I
was like, oh, there it is. It's like it's part
of her uniform still, like it's like a white uniform sweatshirt.
But it's clearly they made the choice to to communicate
that visually, which I appreciated because otherwise I did sort

(45:03):
of feel like the movie gave short thrift to um
Regina Hall's character as Lisa Carter, and Regina Hall is
like such a wonderful actress again, but I think that
the movie. I think the movie didn't give her a
lot to do, and she she blew me out of
the water with what she did do. But yeah, I

(45:24):
think that the Mother. I felt like all of the
women characters in the book, aside from Star or in
the movie, aside from Star kind of got short change.
Like they completely got rid of Nana, the grandmother character,
and the and then the aunt, and April almost disappears
she's been a little bit. But there were a lot

(45:46):
of characters that sort of there's only so much time
that you can make a movie. And I just noticed
that a lot of the cutting room floor stuff ended
up being these strong black women in the story outside
of star Um. But they also cut DeVante. Yes, I
was very upset about cutting, which I was very surprised by,

(46:07):
especially because Davante, I feel like, comes up very early
on in the party where Kenya is there to beat
DeVante's girlfriends asked in Asia because she's been fighting with
in Asia, which I appreciated. I appreciated that Kenya is
not subtle and she's like I'm not going to psychologically
sabotage her. I'm just gonna beat the ship out of her.

(46:29):
And sorry, you're gonna help he he also comes like
becomes such an incredible like source of steaks and tension
because I feel like once he is introduced, you're so
worried about him the whole time of like you know,

(46:52):
whether I don't want to get ahead of it, but
it just it feels an he's such a beautiful character,
like his growth and and Star's relationship with him, Carlo
and Maverick, it's it feels like it's a real shape,
Like he's just such a critical part of the story.
In my opinion. Yeah, I think he's sort of represented
like the potential and risk of young black boys, like

(47:15):
you know, the desperation with which Carlos and Maverick both
wanted to save him. I think really commune. And it's
the first thing they agree on. It's literally the first
thing that they agree on, and it's like, um, it's
like Tan said, they are both navigating white supremacy in
different ways with the assimilation and with the like black

(47:35):
power response, but this is the one thing that they
can agree on that they need to keep this man,
this young man is safe, and they will work together
to figure out a way to do it that works
for both of them and works for both of their beliefs.
But this is where they can meet, is that they
want to make sure that this young man lives and
they want to make sure that he is okay, and
they can do that. I just want to say, for contrast,

(47:58):
in terms of the psycholotic the war fair that you
do against a boyfriend's new girlfriend is my version of that.
And a move that I have been told is in
fact bullying. You know, it's bad. It's bad. I mean
they're both bullying. Beating the ship out of someone is bullying.
A you know when am I? I found out that
like my ex that I'm very close to started seeing

(48:20):
this other girl and like he and I are very close,
and I was like, okay, who is she? And I
looked her up on Twitter and I just like liked
a few of her tweets and he's like and then
he immediately texted me and I was like, you can't
do that, Dana. That is bullying that I haven't done that.
This was this was like two years ago. I am

(48:43):
recognizing and I am growing, Yes, it is Karama is
guest guest to which ex boyfriend. It is in it
in the chat, and it is not trying to put
you on blast in front of the world, but I
did just want to know for that is uh, that
is my version of going to a party and beating
someone else. Okay, So, Um and I feel like they

(49:08):
are both I don't want to say valid, because they're
both horrible, but they are both recognized reactions to feeling
like your quote unquote territory, territory has been infringed upon.
But I just like that we get very early on
who Kenya is, and we do get to see a

(49:28):
more nuanced version of Kenya as we move along, because
Kenya is seven sister and seven is stars brother and
Kenya's father I don't know if we mentioned this, but
Kenya's father is king, which becomes a big deal later.
But um, yeah, So we've talked about Khalil's mom, um,

(49:49):
and I think it's time to talk about the police
station and move on from there. Dana, do you want
to take that part? Yeah? Um. Starr agrees to go
to the police station and testify about what she saw
and what happened, sort of dealing with PTSD the entire time,

(50:11):
which is legitimate. She saw her friend murdered in front
of her, and so she she goes to the police station,
and these two cops uh interrogate her in a way
that immediately makes it clear that they are trying to
justify what when fifteen did to Khalil, Like they're, you know,
framing the questions is such an important part of like

(50:34):
what what lawyers do because it it, you know, immediately
reveals your perspective. And so they're they're talking to her
in a way that makes her feel uh very much
like she's not able to do justice to Khalil in
the way that she wants to. She wants to communicate
fully that like this cop pointed a gun at her too,

(50:54):
which is a detail that she doesn't remember. I mean
maybe she remembers, but a detail that she didn't end
up telling the two cops until but she tells her
family later. It's like, I think, partly of repression and
partly out of the way that like they framed these questions,
so we basically get what I think, unfortunately is probably

(51:15):
a very realistic depiction of what someone in that situation
might go through. And she's sort of rescued from that
room by her uncle Carlos. And I think that that's
the scene where we sort of see Carlos as a
as a cop and he's like, I know one, um,
you know, and he doesn't justify it, but offers the

(51:38):
cop perspective, the perspective that I think the book serves
by like the people online who's like, well, I know
a cop and he's nice when people when people are protesting,
there's always the people on Facebook who are like, well,
some cops are just trying to do a good job
and do their job. And I think that's the perspective
that Carlos voices, um, which isn't you know, a perspective

(52:00):
that people deal with and interact with and have, And
so I think it's worthwhile. I think it's worth And
I thought it was interesting that in the book that's
a perspective he holds at the beginning of the book
and at the film's perspective holds at the end of
the film. And I felt like we missed a lot
of the growth from Uncle Carlos that we had in
the book, and it made him seem like a cop apologist. Yes,

(52:24):
And I think Davante helped him with that growth in
a way that we didn't get in the in the film,
because yeah, at the beginning of the story, he is
sort of like she. He sort of acts as the
cop apologist voice perspective. Um. Although one thing I don't
want to jump ahead too much, but one thing that
I was curious to know, you your your guys perspective

(52:45):
on his very smart people in this movement. I've heard
people being like, we have to reconcile the fact that,
like the stories still end. I mean, the story still
ends with King being arrested by the police, and that's
a victory because King, you know, and I think that
that is something that we culturally need to reconcile, like

(53:07):
that is still a a victory for the story, which
is the legal system working and functioning. And you know,
people sometimes say when people when people protest and say,
arrest the cops that killed in certain name here. I mean,
that's still operating within a broken system. And I think

(53:27):
people may criticize this book for not going far enough,
although you know, it's still a young adult novel that
raises these essential points that and perspectives that I think
so many people haven't even engaged with in the first place.
So I think, you know, maybe maybe that's not a
necessary conversation, but it is one that I thought of

(53:47):
and one that I thought maybe would be worth talking about.
I mean, sociopaths do exist. Um, I don't think they
are the perpetrators of most crimes. I think most crimes
stem from desperation and from a lack of resources, and
from a lack of education. But there are going to
be serial killers who exist in the world, because psychopaths

(54:08):
are a real thing, and some people kill people for fun. Um,
some people, you know, enjoy doing terrible things to other people.
Some people are serial rapists. But I don't know if
you mean the billions of dollars that currently go towards
the police to take care of what I think is

(54:32):
generally a smaller portion of people than the people that
the police are regularly called on. I think, um, at
the moment, you call a police if you find like
a dead body in an alley that has been stabbed
multiple times, with like a note that says the dogs
told me to do the best I have the dog killer.
And you also call the police if a house party

(54:54):
is too loud and it's midnight on a Wednesday, and
maybe maybe those two people that you're calling should not
be the same. Yes, I heartily agree. Um, when I
when I was in college, actually there was a party
that was broken up by the police and it was
a predominantly black party and they used pepper spray inside

(55:17):
a room. Um wait from my freshman year. It was
a party. Um, I think it was at Harambe, which
was the diversity house. I can't remember if it was
at Harambe for sure for sure, but I remember I
got two emails about it. One was from the black
organization on campus that was sent to every black student,

(55:38):
and then there was an email that was sent to
the school at large that was like, hey, so there
was an incident. And then the email from the black
students are like, we cannot let this stand. They can't
do this to us. This isn't right, and this doesn't
happen to white people. And I will say that it
didn't happen again in the four years that I was there.
It happened like in November of my freshman year. But it, uh,

(56:01):
it's still stuck with me. It's something I think about
a lot. And it was like we didn't have large
gatherings of black people at my high school because there
weren't large group numbers of black people, and so some
of the things that happened when you have black people
gathering together in a in a predominantly white space, I
was shielded from. And it was sort of my first

(56:22):
instance of that, and I was like, oh, this is
not a thing that just happens on TV. This is
bad and could happen to me. Like if I had
gone to that party, would I have been Okay? I
don't know, um, And it was all fine, everybody was fine,
nobody died. But I do think it is important to
note that, like stuff like that still happens. And I

(56:43):
think that with the issue of the cops being the
victory in the book, I saw it more as or
I tried to frame it at least as King not
being in the community was the victory and the commun
unity not being afraid to snitch was the victory. And

(57:04):
they had this like great reverse I Am Spartacus moment
where they were all like King did it, Yeah, yeah,
King did it. He did it. It was him, and
everybody was brave enough to stand up for their community
and get King out of it. And I think that's
what's important, because that in that moment is the thing
that can lead to a breaking of the cycle, because

(57:24):
you can't get out of the king lords. If King
is there and it's beating you up, and it's setting
your it is setting buildings on fire and all of
that great stuff, great in quotes, uh, but it is
a problem yet that this is sort of the system
we have. I mean, I I do think King is
a genuine subco path. Everything that he does seems indicative

(57:48):
of I'm sure he had a very hard childhood too,
but I also think he sets buildings on fire and
beats his wife and uh kills children, and UM puts
people in terrible, terrible positions. And I don't think that
community can function if you have someone who is a
sociopath to that extent in a position of power. And

(58:09):
I do think to your point, Krama, you know they
there's a lot of talk and the movement to defund
the police about UM community community organizing and communities coming
together to stop and help the dangers in their own
community because they know it the best. Like King is
the danger in that are not the only danger, but

(58:30):
is the danger in that community, not Maverick, who is
we'll talk about later, like has a very scary incident
with the police. Is the police do not know who
the danger is, so I to your I did see
it that way too, of like, it's all of the
community coming together to stop this threat um and that

(58:51):
felt like the victory, not the police arresting him. It
also reminded me a little bit of that classic map
Bars comic from the NIB where it's like someone saying,
like a surf being like, we should improve society somewhat,
and then the guy being like, and yet do you
participate in society? Curious which we live in. We live

(59:11):
in society, so we do have to like function within
the society, but we can still work for towards its improvement. Right.
And the issue with calling for, say, an arrest to
the cops that killed Brianna Taylor, for example, which as
of recording this still has not happened. I think one
has been fired, which is not what anyone asked for. Uh.
It is a step, a minor positive step, but literally

(59:35):
not the thing that anyone ask for. The problem is
that if I kill someone, I get arrested, But if
a cop kills someone, the cop has no repercussions. There
were three cops in that room and only one of
them has faced any repercussions, and not to the level
of repercussions that a civilian would face. And the problem

(59:56):
is that the cops are above the law. And that's
sort of the issue where it's like, if we live
in a society and we are participating in society, then
cops need to be a part of society too. They
don't get to be outside of society and then punish society.
Isn't it crazy the idea that maybe the people who
are enforcing the law with deadly weapons should be held

(01:00:17):
to a higher standard than civilians. You know, we really
shocked me when I realized how much training you is
actually required to be a cop, because I believe it
is lesson is required to become a beautician. Um. It
is something like eighteen months worth of training, which strikes
me as a very short amount of time to be

(01:00:39):
given a gun and essentially no legal penalties if you
kill someone with it does grow back. So I think
that the training to become a police dog in some
instances is longer than the training to become a police human.
Oh those sweet dog. UM. I also think that in

(01:01:03):
a reference to like what the end of the book
is saying. I know we're jumping ahead, but you know
they are. Starr comes into her power and into her voice.
But that one fifteen gets off scott free, and so
it is and obviously that you know the rest of
the book happens, that there's more to talk about. But

(01:01:23):
I do think that is the commentary on the system.
It is not a happy ending in that story, and
so you know, there are these small victories within this
broken system, but it's still a broken system. That's our
show for the week. Thank you so much for listening.

(01:01:45):
I'm Danish Schwartz and you can find me on Twitter
at Danis Schwartz with three z s. You can follow
Jennifer Wright at Jen Ashley Right, Karama Donqua is at
Karama Drama, Melissa Hunter is at Melissa f t W
and Tan Tran is smart enough to have gotten off Twitter,
but she is on Insta at Hank Tina. Our executive
producer is Christopher Hessiotes and we're produced and edited by

(01:02:08):
Mike John's Special thanks to David Wasserman. Next week we
will continue our conversation about the hate you give and
the week after that, we have a very special guest
that I'm very excited for you to listen to. Okay,
spoiler alert, it is the author herself, Angie Thomas, an incredible,
brilliant human being. You're definitely gonna want to stay tuned.
Uh and if you want to get a jump start

(01:02:29):
on reading our next book, it is Brave New World,
getting ready to pair with the Peacock original series. Popcorn
Book Club is a production of I Heart Radio. See
you next week.