July 12, 2022 • 43 mins
Code-switching is at the forefront of Gam’s conversation with Jarrett Hill, Tre'vell Anderson & Dr. Alfiee Breland-Noble. They talk about watering oneself down in white spaces, why people do it, and the negative effects of code-switching.
#PositivelyGam
Guest Information:
@jarretthill Jarrett’s Instagram
@itsjarretthill Jarrett’s Facebook
@jarretthill Jarrett’s Twitter
@rayzhon Tre’vell’s Instagram
@trevellanderson Tre’vell’s Twitter
@dralfiee Dr. Alfiee’s Instagram
@dralfiee Dr. Alfiee’s Twitter
@dralfiee Dr. Alfiee’s Facebook
@dralfiee Dr. Alfiee’s TikTok
Host Information:
@gammynorris Gammy's Instagram
@gammynorris_ Gammy's Twitter
@gammynorris Gammy's Facebook
@gammynorris Gammy’s TikTok
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
What's up, everybody. I'm Gammy and this is positively gam
The topic for today's discussion on wadering yourself down in
white spaces, or code switching as most people call it.
I got interested in the topic based on something that
you said, Dr Alphie. I asked you, what were some
of the things that you wanted to get off your chest,
and part of what you said was I love myself
(00:32):
and I demand that people show up and respect me
exactly as I show up in the world, and don't
ask me to change anything. And I was like, okay, okay,
Now that's that's a conversation. That's a conversation to be
able to present and be yourself in any space unapologetically.
(00:55):
So if you haven't listened to the episode on self doubt,
please check it out. But today joining me is Jared Hill,
an award winning journalist, writer, and professor. Jared is the
co host of the podcast Fanti from Maximum Fund. Jared
is a returning guest, as he was on the episode
two America's with Brittany pat Nick Cunningham. Hey, Jared, welcome back.
(01:18):
Thank you so much for having me back. I'm excited
to be here. Oh, thank you alongside Jared, we have
Travell Anderson, an award winning journalist editor for Toronto's Extra
magazine and co host of the podcast What a Day
by Cricket Media and Fanti, which they co host with Jared.
(01:39):
Welcome travel, Hey, gam, thanks so much for having me.
At last, but not least, we have back on positively gam.
Dr Alfie Dr Alfie is a licensed psychologist, author and
host of the video podcast Couched in Color. Hey Dr Alfie,
welcome back, Hello utiful, Thank you for having me. So
(02:02):
I want to start with you, Dr Alphie, because I
want you to actually tell us what code switching is. Sure. So,
code switching is something I think most often it impacts
those of us we have marginalized identities, where depending on
the situation that we're in, we change up how we speak,
maybe how we stand or present ourselves in order to
(02:23):
make ourselves. Most often, I hate to stay acceptable, but
too I think for many of us is to allow
a space for us to fit in and kind of
assimilate in some ways with the situations that we're in.
So it's not always bad, um, sometimes it's necessary, particularly
if you have certain marginalized identities. I do think it's
(02:43):
sort of a not a defense mechanism, but it's a protection,
a way to protect yourself. So that's what code switching
is for me, just changing who you are, how you speak,
how you engage depending on the situation. And what about you,
guys travel, did you have anything to add to that description?
I completely agree. I feel like it is one of
the situations that I often bring up when I'm describing
code switching. Is like, for a lot of like black
(03:06):
LGBTQ people, you know, we do what we do, you know,
in the streets with our friends, but when we go
to the barbershop, right, we butchered up for example, right,
as a means of, you know, trying to be feel
more safe or more welcome or more accepted in a
particular space. Yeah, what about you, Jarret? Well, it's interesting
(03:27):
because we I promise this is not promotion, but like
Travilla and I are in the final week of writing
our book, historically black phrases, and so we've been talking
about code switching for months, right, and so in our
interviews that we've been doing with folks, we've been talking
a lot about code switching. And one of the things
that's become interesting to me about code switching is the
ways in which we find it looking different in different places,
(03:50):
And I was saying to travel. We ended up doing
a whole episode on code switching because it was interesting
to me how when I was on the phone with
my girls, right, like, we talked one kind of white
when we're I'm a phone, hey, you know what I mean, Like,
it's it's very animated and excited. But if I'm here
at home by myself and I'm just like on FaceTime
with you know, a different friend, it might be a
lot more chill, and it might be kind of you
(04:11):
know what it is, and blah blah blah. I'm on
the phone with my dad, it might be something else.
But if any I go downstairs and I go to
the mailbox and I see miss Betty, it's like, hey, girl,
how's it going. It's good to see you. You look good,
you know what I mean. So I started to recognize
the ways in which code switching isn't always just about
entering a white space. Sometimes it's just about entering anything
that's outside the front door, right, And sometimes it's about tone,
(04:33):
and sometimes it's about voice. Sometimes it's about vocabulary. Sometimes
it's about intonation, and so now I'm starting to think
of it more as like code calibration, right, and like
every interaction we have, like we kind of like calibrate
ourselves to either feel safe or to to be safe
or to signal safety to another person who is also black,
Like we see each other, right, Like I see you
(04:54):
and I want you to know that I'm here too.
So it's been an interesting conversation to have. I'm glad
you talked about that too, because I feel like that
I feel like, Okay, my example would be how I
present myself on Red table Talk, right, I feel like, um,
how I present myself how I feel like I definitely
(05:17):
feel like I'm doing a lot of codes with Red
table Talk because I'm trying to be relatable to a
wide range of people. And then in my person and
even in my personal life, you know, in different spaces,
I may have to change, um, maybe like you were saying, um,
(05:39):
the language that I use or my tone. But it's
not just when I'm in a white space, you know,
it could be when I'm in a black space. I
may need to toughen up a little bit more, you know,
you know, I may cuss a little bit more, I
may you know, how I carry myself, how I you
know whatever, like yeah, you know, yeah, you know, it
(06:02):
depends on what what space you're in. So, like you said,
code switching isn't always bad, but it does lead me
sometimes feeling like, um, a little inauthentic. Well can I
can I jump in here? Yes? Please do so, agam.
I think what's interesting about what we see you do
(06:23):
on red Table Talk is red table Talk is a
space that is really vulnerable, right. It's a place where
we're asking you to accept ideas that or at least
here ideas that may not be your own right, to
open up a space, to be able to make a
place for what this person is giving me that I'm
I don't know if I really work with that, or
I hadn't really I hadn't thought about it that way,
(06:46):
or I need to say with that for a little bit, right.
And So I think that in that place when we're
talking about wanting to feel safe and wanting to figure
out how we address a space, I think that on
Red Table Talk, oftentimes we're asking you to like open
yourself up in a way that viewers are often always
able to do, right, and that viewers are often hoping
that they can. And so I think that with that
(07:08):
kind of a code switch, it's a it's a safety thing.
It's like, Okay, let me let me see exactly what's
happening here, let me see how much I can how
much I can give. But I'm still with my daughter,
with my granddaughter and at home, you know what I mean.
It's a different kind of space. But I think that
that is probably why you feel that way, right. You
feel like I'm trying to navigate this conversation and do
it in front of people. Always remind people like in
(07:31):
media training and stuff like, there's nothing normal about like
getting in front of cameras and talking to the world. Um,
so there's there's the realization of some safety there. Yeah. Yeah,
because in the back of your mind you're wanting to
be accepted and not wanting to be attacked either. Okay, Jarrett,
and travel is code switching something you find yourself doing
in your everyday life. Mm hmm. Let's start with you travel.
(07:57):
I feel like more and more, why I should say
less and less, I'm code switching right mainly because I'm
I'm no longer interested in being, you know, a partial
person in this space and a different person in this space.
I also say this recognizing that I have a whole
lot of privilege, right, Like so much about my identities,
(08:20):
which are marginalized, are also in many ways being exploited
by various industries. Right, So I can make money off
of being a professional queer or trans person in that
particular way. Um, but I do recognize that for a
lot of folks, they don't have that ability, right. And
I remember when I used to work at the Los
(08:40):
Angeles Times in particular a decade ago, I would go
into that space a very different way because I felt
like there was a particular way that I had to
like present as a journalist and then as a black
journalist in that white newsroom. Right because I want them
to make I want them to know that I'm you know,
worthy of being here. I want them to know that
(09:03):
I'm just as professional as they are, that my HBCU
education is just as good as their you know, Ivy
League education or whatever the case may be. But what
that does to us, right is it I think it
forces us to just like contort ourselves in different ways
(09:24):
to try to be palatable ultimately to white people's sensibilities
about you know what is right or wrong or professional
or unprofessional when like, you know, why can't around the
way girls on the block also be professional? You know,
That's the question that I'm always working through. Yeah, that
(09:46):
That's what I feel mostly too, that that that trying
to be palatable to the white community that is so
challenging and feel so false and feels I mean, I
actually kind of get piste off about it, you know, uh,
you know, it's it's irritating to me. It's irritating to
(10:07):
me sometimes. Dr Alphie, what what what are your feelings
about all of that? The same as yours, Which is
why I said what I said on the last time
I was on one of it, I said what I said,
you know what I'm saying that So it's like because
his tire is exhausting. I first thinned about it is exhausting.
And I first learned about cose switching as an undergrad
at Howard. I had his professor. Her name was Dr
(10:29):
Calherd cw h r D. That's how I just remember her,
and she talked to us about that. And I grew
up in a predominant white environment in Virginia Beach, Virginia
and that was my life. So being a high achieving
black kid, we were always the only it was like
six of us who were always the only black kids
in the classes, right, And so I'm good at oh
my god, like really, like are you serious? Like I can't.
(10:53):
I can't, oh my god. And so, but that was
a way too not that was the way to not
have to deal with the drama that I had to deal,
like the stupid questions like can I touch your hair?
Can you now? I'm gen x, I'm goa date myself?
Do you know all the words to rock the bells? Like?
I didn't want to talk about that all the time.
And so if I did the other stuff like oh
(11:14):
my god, I love you too, I love starfing, yes,
oh my god, then you know, people would leave me alone.
And I think it started over time. It's exhausting, and
so I would get home at night and I just
felt like I would just take all of that off
and put it to the side. So I'm like traville.
I got to a certain point in my career where
I was like, y'all catch the smoke because I ain't
got time that I can't be bothered, right, And so
(11:35):
I would get in staff meetings and people would say
so I'd be like, Chad, please, you know what I mean?
And they would be like Mr. Pearls because they were
like child, please, what is that exactly? Oh my, I'll
feel like that's very ethnic. Oh wow, But you get tired,
and so I agree with you, and I think for me,
the real answer is when you get to a place
(11:56):
like Travelle said, where you feel that you have enough
privilege that you don't have to fit into anybody else's box.
And so me having a nonprofit, I gotta feel in
y'all box almost I do what I want to do.
So yeah, it's exhausting, That's what I'll say. What about you,
jarret Um, I hate to get all deep on you,
but I feel like lately, I feel like lately I've
(12:19):
been thinking about this a lot. As I said, we're
writing the book, but also I've just been kind of
on my own like spiritual journey over the last couple
of years. I don't know if y'all heard about this
quarantine thing that happened, but it certainly slowed me down,
um and made me think about things and I started
to really realize. And I don't know that I've articulated
this out loud. But I started to realize that my
(12:42):
life has become my job, right, and my personality and
what I think and what I believe and what I
see has become a part of my work every day, right,
my personality is what pays the bills. Um. And so
I can't can tinue to like shrink myself down when
(13:03):
I go into places if my job is to show up,
right and so as I'm as I'm working as a
professor right at USC, when I'm talking to my students,
it's been incredibly important for me to always make sure
that they know how what this journey looked like, right, um.
And in our final class, they reflected back to me,
like I one of the things that they got from
(13:23):
our class that was about media reporting, journalism, uh for
for pop culture and entertainment. One of the things that
I always wanted to make sure that they got was
that everybody's journey is their own, and like your story
is your your path is your story, and that's like
the power that you have. And so I find myself
trying to coach switch less and less and less when
I go into exceedingly white spaces or or you know,
(13:46):
high power spaces, or when I'm in conversation with my therapist,
or when I'm hanging out with my friends or whatever
it is. I'm trying not to like dumbed down parts
of myself, turned down parts of myself, but to show
up as much as I can. And because I find
that when I show up as myself that is when
I have the most power. Wow, that that is really
(14:08):
interesting and it's really inspiring to hear, because I'm not
sure that I feel that way, but I have my
own I have my own issues with self doubt and
not the most confident person. So it's actually really good
to hear you say that. Because darr alphie what triggers
(14:30):
in our brain to to code switch safety? I really
think it's about safety, right. So, when going back to
where everyone has said, I really loved that Jared specifically
has talked about code which is not just what happens
when black we as black people are in white spaces.
We coach, which when we talk to our grandparents, think
about that. I happen to be married to a person
(14:51):
whose father is a preacher. Now I know how I
like to dress, especially like twenty years ago, I ain't
never had no clothes one right, but I wouldn't do that,
I please, and if I can still get away with it,
and then sometimes I do. But it was when I
would go to their house right the coast, which was
I wouldn't wear the stuff that I would wear every
day because I felt like it wouldn't be respectful for
(15:12):
their values. And more so, I really do think what
triggers in our brain a couple of things. One is safety,
but two is you're remembering times when you've been chastised
with little or something negative has happened in response to
you showing up in a certain way. Think about little kids,
right the first time the little kid. Think about people
we knew growing up with my family from the Deep South,
(15:32):
I'm not what my family is. The first time a
kid come out their mouth the wrong way to the parents,
some kid, you get popped in the mouth, so the
next time you're not gonna open your mouth and say
anything sideways or I can remember with you know, being
with friends and parents would be like, don't look at
me in that tone of voice, fix your face. Do
you know what I'm saying? And so I think it's
(15:52):
those are just examples from within our community. But I
think when you're in other situations, just like Travel was saying,
think about what it means to be a visibly open
out person of the lgbt Q community and go into
spaces where you're not sure where people are right how
they feel. Your literal safety depends on you scoping that
(16:14):
out before you reveal who you are, because that literally
count me in life or death. So I think that's
what it is. You know, past past behavior is the
best predicted future behavior. So if people are not treating
you right, then I think the next time you think
about go ahead, Jared, I would say, gam as as
I think about you specifically. Um, I I found earlier
(16:37):
today I'd forgotten this, but on my wall up here,
I just I just read design my Office. So on
my wall up here, this photo is of you and
I and Jada when we met when you guys launched
Red Table Talk, and it was I didn't interview with
you all for essence because you guys were doing the
big launch event and we all got to sit down
(16:58):
with y'all for like five or in minutes, and uh
it was special to me because I felt like I
know Jada Pinkett Smith and like I just saw this show,
and I'm I'm meeting this new woman named Adrian who's
like brand new to me, and like I didn't know
her story before, right, And I was immediately calling you
gam and like all of this stuff, and I felt
like there was a connection. But then I sat down
(17:19):
with you all, and it was so surprising to me
because y'all felt so like like family immediately, right. You
were just open and um kind and welcoming. And I
could show you the photo up close, but like it
is like us, like in a good cackle, right, and
it felt so welcome. Right. But I think that what
(17:39):
we've seen from you and Red Table Talk in general,
is like how much you're willing to open up yourselves, right,
And like I think that there are moments when you
are probably trying to code switch to not feel whatever
that negative thing is that you're telling yourself. But like
all of those things are the things that we love
(18:00):
about you, right, Like you've you've talked about one of
the things in the interview that we did. You talked
about how you had been married multiple times and how
that was kind of challenging for you, right, and the
ways that that showed up in your next marriage. But
it's like, yeah, but my daddy's been married three times,
and my parents, my mom and dad have been married,
my mom and said dad have been married twice. And
I've been in and out of a lot of relationships
that never showed up to a marriage, right, And so
(18:22):
like to hear your story, I'm like, well, gam is
doing the damn thing, so like let's keep it going, right,
And like it's a thing that makes you feel weaker, insecure,
or something that you want to run away from, but
it's something that I want to lean into and be like,
you know what, she kept going and kept trying, and
like I want to do that too. And as I'm
a single person that's thirty seven years old, I'm like,
you know what, Gam Gamm is doing it, So Damna,
(18:46):
why don't I keep trying? Like and and like that
is something that I want to lean into because I
see how you do it. And so as you are
being honest and real and genuine about who you are
and what you want and what you're doing and what
you believe and how you feel, like it encourages saw.
And then I go to my show, right and we
get letters all the time from people who are saying like, oh,
I send my your show to my students, or I
(19:08):
send my your show to UM to be a part
of my dissertation, or I play it for my clients
or whatever, and so all of that has this really
beautiful ripple effect when we show up as who we are.
What do you think if there are any negative effects
that code switching can have? Though? Yes, what do you think?
Dr Alfrey? I think that's sometimes we struggle with who
(19:31):
am I? If I'm a different person in all these
different spaces? Who's me? Right? And I think there's also
a part of it where it's am I valuing not
just who am I? But am I valuing all of
who I am? If I'm showing up as a different
version of me in all these spaces? And I think
for me personally, one of the things that I have
struggled with in the past is who am I not
(19:53):
representing effectively? If I show up and I'm something other
than you know, proud African American woman, Do you know
what I mean? In these spaces? Are proud gen X
black woman? Yeah? For me, sometimes it just feels like
I'm being phony, Yes, you know, yes, absolutely absolutely it
feels like that. So I think those are the some
(20:13):
conversations that we have internally when we coach with and
think about. And I'm telling like, I was doing my
little valley girl thing before, but I can't remember how
difficult it was to I would show up in spaces
and think that's what I was supposed to do, and
now I get beat down for it. So my freshman year,
Howard Chad wan't no joke. They like they snashed me hard.
Do you know what I'm saying, Like, girl, this ay? No?
(20:34):
Like they would say the name of the white radio station.
We don't listen to YouTube up and here you better
get your mind right, you know. And so that was
a struggle. So it's sort of there's a piece of
it where it was, okay, where can I be all
of who I am all in one place at one time?
And I think, to Jared's point, in Travell's point, over time,
what I learned is I have to take ownership of that.
(20:57):
But that was my journey, Like I have to be
in control with that, and I still struggle with it.
But for me, those are some of the struggles that
I think people have when they code switch. I feel
like for black people, I just feel like we're doing
it all the time. We're doing it all the time.
It's like it's always been us trying to assimilate into
(21:18):
this white world. But can you imagine if a white
person came into a black space and tried to like
talk like how we do and our lingo and all
of that, Like it would be insulting. We'd be like stop,
we don't even have to imagine exactly, don't you do it? Hanks?
(21:46):
The whole time, I was like chet Hanks had mercy
first of all. First of all, like you know, and
you know immediately when it's happening, right when the person
comes in and they're speaking language that is not theirs, right,
when they're when they're affecting a dialect that does not
belong to them, right, or something that they have. Yeah,
(22:07):
one of our linguists, one of the linguals that we've
been interviewing for the book, has been talking about how
there's a difference between seeing something and learning it right,
and like you can see something but like you didn't
learn that, you just saw it on TikTok right, like
you know it and you feel it, you feel it
is different and like I think when you say, like
what are the negative sides of like of code switching. UM.
(22:29):
A friend of mine would just shared this with me
in the last week, and he was saying how he
was talking with his pastor about his sexuality and how
challenging it was for him, UM as a bisexual person
to like be able to embrace his his his truth,
but also to like share that with his family, And
his pastor said to him, if you don't tell your family,
if you don't come out, you're never gonna fully believe
(22:51):
that they really love who you are, right. And I
thought that that was so powerful, it like it rocked
me because I thought to myself, like, if we are
not fully honest about who we are and show up
in these places without like having to play a role
or coach switch or beat something else, like, it's really
hard to to receive the positive feedback if we don't
(23:11):
feel like we're being genuine. Because I feel like you're
giving me feedback to like this character that I put
on as opposed to who I am, UM, and I
think that that's been something really important for me. I
agree with you, Jared, and I think there's a fear
that when I reveal all of who I am to
you You're gonna reject it absolutely, you know what I'm saying.
And so I think that sometimes holds people back from
(23:32):
because it's beautiful when people receive us. It's really as
hard as hell when they don't, especially people we love
for people we have affection for. So I think when
we do that, we're so vulnerable. So, you know, I
just I would just add that one tiny little travel
I see you shaking your head. What do you want
to say? I'm nodding throughout all of this. Well, first
(23:54):
on the on the aspect of like, you know, white
people who have their black sense, and it also gets
me thinking about, you know, the black people who who
don't come from a particular type of black experience, but
also wanna you know, yo yo yo it up right,
And it makes me think to what you said earlier,
(24:15):
gam about that authenticity. And I think what it is
is that like those of us who come from certain
types of communities, right where we talk a particular type
of way, you can hear it and you can feel
the authenticity, right. You can feel when someone has lived,
you know, a yo yo yo type of experience, right,
(24:37):
and you can feel when somebody just learned it like
Jared said on Ticktop, because we know, we all know
of those white folks right that did grow up you know,
in the hood, right, who have that little particular swagger
that we find acceptable, right and that we that we
you know, put our hands around. We know those folks,
(24:57):
and we provide space for those folks. It's the folks
who don't know the culture, who don't know the community,
the struggle, the experience, who were all side eyeing in
a particular way. And it goes back to this this
point about authenticity. It's about the culture. It's about what
you have lived and experience, not just what you know,
have seen on TV. And you know, we've been kind
(25:29):
of focusing really on the black and the white community,
but there's all cultures in in here in the United States.
So I'm wondering how it might feel for other cultures.
I don't know, because I'm I'm not that you know.
I think that when we think about code switching and
like dumbing ourselves down as any person that's a part
(25:52):
of a marginalized community, is code switching somewhere? Right? And
I would dare say when we did our episode of
code switching, um, we got emails from white folks that
were like, oh, well, I coach which when I go
from this place to that place? And I was like,
I don't know if that's the same. And I was like,
hold on, straight, white man, I don't know if that's
(26:13):
what we're talking about, right, But but I do recognize
that there is a bit of a way that we
turned something on when we get home to our family,
as opposed to something on when we're at work, versus
something on when we're on the road and they cut
us off and we have a couple of choice words
about who your mama might be, right, so, and so
(26:35):
we engage all of those things in different ways. And
so I was like, Okay, white people, you might be
coach witching, but it's not the same, right it is.
It is similar, but it's not exactly the same. It's
not necessarily for the same safety. That's right. And no,
it sounds cliche. All of our lives would be if
we just had the opportunity to be with people in
the fullness and unapologetic nous to coin a phrase of
(26:59):
who they are, Like, how beautiful would that be? To
just enjoy people exactly as they are in the most
authentic versions of themselves. I just feel like it would
just be heavenly. Oh absolutely, But we've got such a
long way to go to get to that, sadly sadly enough,
but that's just the truth of the matter. But Jared
and and Travel, you guys have mentioned this book that
(27:22):
you're working on several times. So Travel, let's start with you.
I want you to tell us what this book is about,
because you guys, once it's out, you guys are gonna
come back and we're gonna talk about it. But I'm
very excited, So tell everybody what this book is all about. Yeah.
So the name of the book is historically Black Phrases.
It's basically going to be this coffee table sized homage
(27:46):
to the special way that that unique razzle dazzle that
we as black folks put on the English language. And
so we've come up with these phrases that we think
are historically black, everything from I ain't want of your
little free ins to do you have McDonald's money? Okay?
(28:09):
And so we're putting we're putting definitions to these phrases.
We're pulling pop culture moments about these phrases, and we're
interviewing a variety of different folks about how black language
has shown up in their own unique experiences, because ultimately,
our goal is really to pay homage to how we
(28:30):
as black folks speak, because it's it's unique, it's special,
and it deserves kind of that type of treatment. Jared,
did you want to add anything? Um, I, first of all,
really glad to have Travel as a co writer and
co publicist on this because they can sum it up
very very well. Um. This started out as like a
(28:50):
joke that I was doing on Facebook, like doing like
posts about what it meant to, you know, to say
trouble don't last always or you know what, I guess
I can say fun boy, but like what a funk
boy is, right, and and why we use that language
and where it comes from and what he probably is
acting like right, And so it started off as that,
(29:13):
and then people were saying back to me like, um, well,
when are you putting this in a book? And I
was like, UM, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm I'm working
on that right now. And so over the course of
six years, it has become uh, this book that is
now going to be available next fall and uh is
due in a couple of days, so you know, pray
for us. But but we're excited about it, and I'm
(29:35):
excited to get a copy. Put me first on the list.
I think it's gonna be awesome. So is there anything
else in this conversation about code switching? Is there? I
want to give each of you an opportunity to like
(29:57):
give your last comments on it before we wrap up. Um. Oh,
the one thing I always tell myself and I want
people to remember, sometimes showing up justice who you are
is an act of resistance. That's it. Uh Now, I
didn't think about it that way. Yeah, you being gam
(30:18):
and think about it when Gam is at the table.
I remember one episode you you said something like I
don't remember what the topic was, but you're like, you know,
my generation, we can talk about stuff like that. That's real.
And you gave permission for a lot of other people
who are of your generation to say, she write won't
won't get down like that. You know what I'm saying.
And so, just like Travell and Jared talking about the book,
(30:39):
the two things came to mind for me. Let's red
table it all all the black folks. We know what
that means. We're saying, let's red table it right. And um,
you know just what they're doing. Or when you were
talking about I think it was travel white folks who
you know, if you grew up in that environment. The
first thing that came to my head was Tina Marie, right.
I was like Tina ree while having eternal invite to
(31:01):
the cookout. And when you're black and you say invite
to the cookout, everybody know what that means. So yeah,
So the authenticity of it, I that's and so you
just being you, gam Jared, just being Jared, Travel, just
being Travel. There's so many times when we've been pushed
and required and asked and cajoled into not being who
we are. Sometimes just you, even if it's just for
(31:23):
a moment, showing up in the fullness of who you are,
That in and of itself is an active resistance because
you're taking your control back. Wow. I needed to hear
that Travel you next. I love that. I was going
to say something very similar about the utility of bringing
your full self into spaces where you feel like that
(31:45):
full self is not welcome. Um, because what it does,
and you know, I want to be clear, it's not
always easy, you know. I think many of us who
have these conversations about code switching, like still work through
the anxiety that I know for me as a black
Clear trans person when I'm going into a variety of
(32:07):
spaces where I am the only black clear trans person,
when I make the decision to show up with a
lip on and my nails done and in some heels, like,
there's a lot of anxiety that goes into presenting this
image of confidence to the world. Um, Because to Dr
(32:28):
Alfie's point, I know that me being in these spaces
as I am will necessarily change the makeup of that space.
And hopefully somebody else who's in that room who has
been feeling like they had to put on a mask
to be there, they will take their mask off, right,
(32:51):
and they will allow someone else to come behind them
who also can take their mask off. And I think
that's how we shift a culture. That's how we get
to a space where we can be our authentic selves
at all times right and not have to make these
these trade offs or these calibrations for safety or to
keep our job or to you know, stay in good
(33:15):
graces with various folks. I wanted to to say lastly
that I think we touched on privilege. Um, really briefly,
but I do think that one of the things that
we are all fortunate as people whose um personalities and
careers are really informing what we do right now and
allowing us to show up um as our full selves
with our personalities. I want to also acknowledge that everybody
(33:37):
does not get to do that at work, right and
recognizing that, um, the places that you don't have to
code switch are probably the places where you have the
most privileged and probably the places that you feel the
most powerful and authentic, right, the places that you're able
to just show up and like, you know, sit back
(33:59):
in the sea, just be who you are, and where
what you wore right, your hair looks, how your hair looks,
your makeup is done or not, your voice sounds the
way that it does or does not. You use that
word as opposed to that word right, those are probably
the places where you feel like you have the most power,
the most the most ability to like be be your
(34:20):
own self. And so UM, I want to acknowledge that
everybody doesn't get to do that at work, But you
might get to do that a little bit more at church,
or you might get to do that a little bit
more with your friends or you might get to do
that a little bit more where you volunteer, or you
might get to do that a little bit more over
here over there, and and think about like how your
privilege is showing up and how you get to do
that and how you get to to to be who
(34:40):
you are, uh, and embrace it in the places that
you can, because, like I said, everybody doesn't get to
do it everywhere. Yeah. Important, I guess we gotta wrap
up because we could go on, could we not? Yes? Yes, yes, yes.
(35:02):
Now we're gonna do the segment, wouldn't you like to know?
And we're gonna start with you, Jarrett. Jarrett, what book
are you currently reading? I'm reading Balance, Positioning Yourself to
Do All Things Well by Tory Roberts, who also happens
to be my pastor. And so I'm I'm currently in
that book right now and and really enjoying the ways
that it's kind of opening me up and making anything differently.
(35:24):
And what about you, travel I just finished reading Shine Bright,
a very personal history of Black women in pop written
by a fabulous music journalist, Danielle Smith. It's part biography
of black women in pop music, part memoir of Danielle's story.
She was the first black um editor of Vibe magazine,
(35:47):
first black woman editor of Billboard magazine. And so it's
just really really good. And if you can listen to
the audio book, do that because she reads herself and
it's so wonderful. I know. I love audiobooks. What about
You to Alfie, there's two at the same time. I'm
audiobooking The Godfather and then I'm always reading this book call.
It's a very tiny short book. Um, I want to
(36:09):
see You Shining. There's a super producer. His name is
Mark Batson. He and I co wrote it and it's
just it's very uplifting and it was done during the
pandemic to help people through difficult times. And it goes
with the album that he made literally uplifting song. My
favorite song is um, you are Elegant and it's all
positive affirmations. And so I'm reading, always reading that one
(36:29):
and listening to The Godfather. Oh that's that's awesome. Okay,
moving on, what's one thing you want to get off
your chest? Jarrett? The thing I'm really upset about this week,
like that I really want to get off of my chest.
And this might feel small and don't judge me, gam
but I'm mad at like subscription services that don't let
(36:51):
me cancel their subscription within the app. And I know
that's very specific, but yes, I'm talking to you. You
can believe this out if you need to Orange theory.
But like, I just want to pause for a few months. Okay,
I just need a couple of months to like do
my own thing. But you want to charge me more money.
You want me to sign the paperwork, you want me
to come in, you want me to give blunt just
(37:13):
to pause. It's irritating me and I'm I'm feeling a
way about it, that's all. I don't blame you. I
would be irritated as well. What about you? Dr Alphie Um?
Oh god, I have to but I'll pick one. The
one I want to pick is I want to get
off my chest that we should hold space for all
(37:35):
the black people who over the weekend still showed up,
including us today, showed up and did what they had
to do in the aftermath of the terrorist attack in Buffalo.
We're mourning, it's vicarious trauma, but we're still showing up
to work. And the fact that nobody they're not too
many people who understand that they're still asking us for stuff.
(37:55):
That's what I want to get off my chest. People
need to chill for a man, just give us a minute.
Oh well, I feel like this is going to be
a very start left turn. Um from the serious nature
of Dr Alfie's point. That's okay. That was such a
good point though, Dr Alfiat because yeah, that people just
don't get it. Either they don't get it or they
(38:16):
don't care. Give me, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme. So
don't don't worry travel, will you know? Yeah? Follow that,
follow that. I just wanted to give the listener a
little a little disclaimer that I'm taking a left and
the thing that i want to get off my chest,
which is something I'm always complaining about, is you know,
(38:37):
I feel like I coined this term a few years ago.
B F B. It stands for big footed b I
T C h S. These are people such as myself
who have big feet but can't, like struggle to find
high heels in our size in store. Okay, And so
I just I want to tell all of the shoemaking
(38:58):
people out there that I need them to carry bigger
sizes in the store. Okay, somebody else was just talking
about this. I don't know who it was. When I
was just talking to somebody and they were complaining about
the same thing you are with the store. Don't even
mess with the store. You gotta order them joints. You
(39:19):
can't them jones. You can't do it. I'm telling you,
I as a as a big footed boy, if I
can keep the bee, I will say that, like trying
to find a size fourteen shoe, it is depressing, it
is upsetting. It is I'm gonna start calling it racist
and discriminatory or whatever else I how to call it.
For people to start making bigger damn shoes. Jet, you
(39:39):
were size fourteen, A fourteen. I'm six ft three and
aware of fourteen size shoe and finding it. It's not easy.
I understand your play. I haven't looked for a heel,
but you know, I mean, listen, once you get past
forget it. It's crazy, all right. What's the motto that
(40:01):
you live by? Travel um A model that I live by.
I sign all of my emails the same way, and
that slay on with an exclamation point. I just always
want myself and everyone that I come in contact with
to slay on, slay the days late, the nights late,
whatever you gotta slay, but just lay on. And what
(40:23):
about you, Jared, I lately have been saying to myself,
bring all of yourself, but don't make it about you. Um.
And that's something that I've been trying to do more.
And I mean we've been talking about that in this conversation.
Is like, I want to like bring more of myself
to the spaces where I'm asked to come and provide
thought or feedback or insight or experience or wisdom or whatever.
(40:45):
I want to bring all of myself to those spaces,
but I don't want to make it about me. Yeah,
I like that. I like that. What about you? Dr Alfhie?
This is easy. But I speak tear rble teeny bit
teeny tie a little bit of French. And so I
have this one phrase, I know phrases. One phrase I
always say is just sweet puss Um. I am peace.
(41:08):
I'm probably saying that wrong too, but I am peace.
And I always remind myself because pieces pieces paramount for me.
That's the most important thing in my life. I feel
like is peace first. And we ended on a positive note.
So I like that too, because the topic was heavy.
Where can we find you all on social media? Starting
with you, Jarret, You can find me everywhere at Jarrett's Hill,
(41:29):
Jarrett two rs and two tease because my parents wanted
to be a little bit different, and you can find
our podcast. Look, I can't ever find my name on
a key chain at at a theme park, and I've
talked to my therapist about it for years. Um. But
I also would encourage you to go check out our
podcast Fantai, where we talk about the things that we
are fans of but also have some anti feelings about.
(41:50):
It's a portmanteau of those two words fan and anti.
You can find us everywhere at fan Thai podcast Everywhere,
Fanti Podcast on Twitter and Instagram. I am on Twitter
at travel Anderson t R E v e l L
Anderson and on Instagram at Ray Jean r A y
z h O N and Dr Alfie. So my podcast
(42:11):
is couched in color um all one word, and we're
on Instagram and Facebook and YouTube, but you connect to
that through my website, which is Dr Alfie d r
A L f I E F in the middle is
the f Is and Frank Um and at Dr Alfie
like on every platform except Snapchat because I still ain't
figured it out. Yea, I feel you on that for sure.
(42:36):
Thank you Jared at Travel and Dr Alfie for stopping by.
Positively GAM. I love speaking with you guys today. Thank
you so much, and that's our show. You can follow
me online at gammy. Narris also help us out by
leaving a five star review on Apple Podcasts and by
hitting the follow button on I Heart Radio. Stay grateful, y'all.
(42:58):
Positively gam is produce used by Red Table Talk podcast
and I Heart Radio. Executive producers are Adrian Banfield, Nars,
Balin Jethro and Jada Pinkett Smith. Our audio engineer is
Calvin Bailiff and our associate producer is Irene Bischoff Berger.
Our theme song is produced by d Beats.
What's up, everybody. I'm Gammy and this is positively gam
The topic for today's discussion on wadering yourself down in
white spaces, or code switching as most people call it.
I got interested in the topic based on something that
you said, Dr Alphie. I asked you, what were some
of the things that you wanted to get off your chest,
and part of what you said was I love myself
(00:32):
and I demand that people show up and respect me
exactly as I show up in the world, and don't
ask me to change anything. And I was like, okay, okay,
Now that's that's a conversation. That's a conversation to be
able to present and be yourself in any space unapologetically.
(00:55):
So if you haven't listened to the episode on self doubt,
please check it out. But today joining me is Jared Hill,
an award winning journalist, writer, and professor. Jared is the
co host of the podcast Fanti from Maximum Fund. Jared
is a returning guest, as he was on the episode
two America's with Brittany pat Nick Cunningham. Hey, Jared, welcome back.
(01:18):
Thank you so much for having me back. I'm excited
to be here. Oh, thank you alongside Jared, we have
Travell Anderson, an award winning journalist editor for Toronto's Extra
magazine and co host of the podcast What a Day
by Cricket Media and Fanti, which they co host with Jared.
(01:39):
Welcome travel, Hey, gam, thanks so much for having me.
At last, but not least, we have back on positively gam.
Dr Alfie Dr Alfie is a licensed psychologist, author and
host of the video podcast Couched in Color. Hey Dr Alfie,
welcome back, Hello utiful, Thank you for having me. So
(02:02):
I want to start with you, Dr Alphie, because I
want you to actually tell us what code switching is. Sure. So,
code switching is something I think most often it impacts
those of us we have marginalized identities, where depending on
the situation that we're in, we change up how we speak,
maybe how we stand or present ourselves in order to
(02:23):
make ourselves. Most often, I hate to stay acceptable, but
too I think for many of us is to allow
a space for us to fit in and kind of
assimilate in some ways with the situations that we're in.
So it's not always bad, um, sometimes it's necessary, particularly
if you have certain marginalized identities. I do think it's
(02:43):
sort of a not a defense mechanism, but it's a protection,
a way to protect yourself. So that's what code switching
is for me, just changing who you are, how you speak,
how you engage depending on the situation. And what about you,
guys travel, did you have anything to add to that description?
I completely agree. I feel like it is one of
the situations that I often bring up when I'm describing
code switching. Is like, for a lot of like black
(03:06):
LGBTQ people, you know, we do what we do, you know,
in the streets with our friends, but when we go
to the barbershop, right, we butchered up for example, right,
as a means of, you know, trying to be feel
more safe or more welcome or more accepted in a
particular space. Yeah, what about you, Jarret? Well, it's interesting
(03:27):
because we I promise this is not promotion, but like
Travilla and I are in the final week of writing
our book, historically black phrases, and so we've been talking
about code switching for months, right, and so in our
interviews that we've been doing with folks, we've been talking
a lot about code switching. And one of the things
that's become interesting to me about code switching is the
ways in which we find it looking different in different places,
(03:50):
And I was saying to travel. We ended up doing
a whole episode on code switching because it was interesting
to me how when I was on the phone with
my girls, right, like, we talked one kind of white
when we're I'm a phone, hey, you know what I mean, Like,
it's it's very animated and excited. But if I'm here
at home by myself and I'm just like on FaceTime
with you know, a different friend, it might be a
lot more chill, and it might be kind of you
(04:11):
know what it is, and blah blah blah. I'm on
the phone with my dad, it might be something else.
But if any I go downstairs and I go to
the mailbox and I see miss Betty, it's like, hey, girl,
how's it going. It's good to see you. You look good,
you know what I mean. So I started to recognize
the ways in which code switching isn't always just about
entering a white space. Sometimes it's just about entering anything
that's outside the front door, right, And sometimes it's about tone,
(04:33):
and sometimes it's about voice. Sometimes it's about vocabulary. Sometimes
it's about intonation, and so now I'm starting to think
of it more as like code calibration, right, and like
every interaction we have, like we kind of like calibrate
ourselves to either feel safe or to to be safe
or to signal safety to another person who is also black,
Like we see each other, right, Like I see you
(04:54):
and I want you to know that I'm here too.
So it's been an interesting conversation to have. I'm glad
you talked about that too, because I feel like that
I feel like, Okay, my example would be how I
present myself on Red table Talk, right, I feel like, um,
how I present myself how I feel like I definitely
(05:17):
feel like I'm doing a lot of codes with Red
table Talk because I'm trying to be relatable to a
wide range of people. And then in my person and
even in my personal life, you know, in different spaces,
I may have to change, um, maybe like you were saying, um,
(05:39):
the language that I use or my tone. But it's
not just when I'm in a white space, you know,
it could be when I'm in a black space. I
may need to toughen up a little bit more, you know,
you know, I may cuss a little bit more, I
may you know, how I carry myself, how I you
know whatever, like yeah, you know, yeah, you know, it
(06:02):
depends on what what space you're in. So, like you said,
code switching isn't always bad, but it does lead me
sometimes feeling like, um, a little inauthentic. Well can I
can I jump in here? Yes? Please do so, agam.
I think what's interesting about what we see you do
(06:23):
on red Table Talk is red table Talk is a
space that is really vulnerable, right. It's a place where
we're asking you to accept ideas that or at least
here ideas that may not be your own right, to
open up a space, to be able to make a
place for what this person is giving me that I'm
I don't know if I really work with that, or
I hadn't really I hadn't thought about it that way,
(06:46):
or I need to say with that for a little bit, right.
And So I think that in that place when we're
talking about wanting to feel safe and wanting to figure
out how we address a space, I think that on
Red Table Talk, oftentimes we're asking you to like open
yourself up in a way that viewers are often always
able to do, right, and that viewers are often hoping
that they can. And so I think that with that
(07:08):
kind of a code switch, it's a it's a safety thing.
It's like, Okay, let me let me see exactly what's
happening here, let me see how much I can how
much I can give. But I'm still with my daughter,
with my granddaughter and at home, you know what I mean.
It's a different kind of space. But I think that
that is probably why you feel that way, right. You
feel like I'm trying to navigate this conversation and do
it in front of people. Always remind people like in
(07:31):
media training and stuff like, there's nothing normal about like
getting in front of cameras and talking to the world. Um,
so there's there's the realization of some safety there. Yeah. Yeah,
because in the back of your mind you're wanting to
be accepted and not wanting to be attacked either. Okay, Jarrett,
and travel is code switching something you find yourself doing
in your everyday life. Mm hmm. Let's start with you travel.
(07:57):
I feel like more and more, why I should say
less and less, I'm code switching right mainly because I'm
I'm no longer interested in being, you know, a partial
person in this space and a different person in this space.
I also say this recognizing that I have a whole
lot of privilege, right, Like so much about my identities,
(08:20):
which are marginalized, are also in many ways being exploited
by various industries. Right, So I can make money off
of being a professional queer or trans person in that
particular way. Um, but I do recognize that for a
lot of folks, they don't have that ability, right. And
I remember when I used to work at the Los
(08:40):
Angeles Times in particular a decade ago, I would go
into that space a very different way because I felt
like there was a particular way that I had to
like present as a journalist and then as a black
journalist in that white newsroom. Right because I want them
to make I want them to know that I'm you know,
worthy of being here. I want them to know that
(09:03):
I'm just as professional as they are, that my HBCU
education is just as good as their you know, Ivy
League education or whatever the case may be. But what
that does to us, right is it I think it
forces us to just like contort ourselves in different ways
(09:24):
to try to be palatable ultimately to white people's sensibilities
about you know what is right or wrong or professional
or unprofessional when like, you know, why can't around the
way girls on the block also be professional? You know,
That's the question that I'm always working through. Yeah, that
(09:46):
That's what I feel mostly too, that that that trying
to be palatable to the white community that is so
challenging and feel so false and feels I mean, I
actually kind of get piste off about it, you know, uh,
you know, it's it's irritating to me. It's irritating to
(10:07):
me sometimes. Dr Alphie, what what what are your feelings
about all of that? The same as yours, Which is
why I said what I said on the last time
I was on one of it, I said what I said,
you know what I'm saying that So it's like because
his tire is exhausting. I first thinned about it is exhausting.
And I first learned about cose switching as an undergrad
at Howard. I had his professor. Her name was Dr
(10:29):
Calherd cw h r D. That's how I just remember her,
and she talked to us about that. And I grew
up in a predominant white environment in Virginia Beach, Virginia
and that was my life. So being a high achieving
black kid, we were always the only it was like
six of us who were always the only black kids
in the classes, right, And so I'm good at oh
my god, like really, like are you serious? Like I can't.
(10:53):
I can't, oh my god. And so, but that was
a way too not that was the way to not
have to deal with the drama that I had to deal,
like the stupid questions like can I touch your hair?
Can you now? I'm gen x, I'm goa date myself?
Do you know all the words to rock the bells? Like?
I didn't want to talk about that all the time.
And so if I did the other stuff like oh
(11:14):
my god, I love you too, I love starfing, yes,
oh my god, then you know, people would leave me alone.
And I think it started over time. It's exhausting, and
so I would get home at night and I just
felt like I would just take all of that off
and put it to the side. So I'm like traville.
I got to a certain point in my career where
I was like, y'all catch the smoke because I ain't
got time that I can't be bothered, right, And so
(11:35):
I would get in staff meetings and people would say
so I'd be like, Chad, please, you know what I mean?
And they would be like Mr. Pearls because they were
like child, please, what is that exactly? Oh my, I'll
feel like that's very ethnic. Oh wow, But you get tired,
and so I agree with you, and I think for me,
the real answer is when you get to a place
(11:56):
like Travelle said, where you feel that you have enough
privilege that you don't have to fit into anybody else's box.
And so me having a nonprofit, I gotta feel in
y'all box almost I do what I want to do.
So yeah, it's exhausting, That's what I'll say. What about you,
jarret Um, I hate to get all deep on you,
but I feel like lately, I feel like lately I've
(12:19):
been thinking about this a lot. As I said, we're
writing the book, but also I've just been kind of
on my own like spiritual journey over the last couple
of years. I don't know if y'all heard about this
quarantine thing that happened, but it certainly slowed me down,
um and made me think about things and I started
to really realize. And I don't know that I've articulated
this out loud. But I started to realize that my
(12:42):
life has become my job, right, and my personality and
what I think and what I believe and what I
see has become a part of my work every day, right,
my personality is what pays the bills. Um. And so
I can't can tinue to like shrink myself down when
(13:03):
I go into places if my job is to show up,
right and so as I'm as I'm working as a
professor right at USC, when I'm talking to my students,
it's been incredibly important for me to always make sure
that they know how what this journey looked like, right, um.
And in our final class, they reflected back to me,
like I one of the things that they got from
(13:23):
our class that was about media reporting, journalism, uh for
for pop culture and entertainment. One of the things that
I always wanted to make sure that they got was
that everybody's journey is their own, and like your story
is your your path is your story, and that's like
the power that you have. And so I find myself
trying to coach switch less and less and less when
I go into exceedingly white spaces or or you know,
(13:46):
high power spaces, or when I'm in conversation with my therapist,
or when I'm hanging out with my friends or whatever
it is. I'm trying not to like dumbed down parts
of myself, turned down parts of myself, but to show
up as much as I can. And because I find
that when I show up as myself that is when
I have the most power. Wow, that that is really
(14:08):
interesting and it's really inspiring to hear, because I'm not
sure that I feel that way, but I have my
own I have my own issues with self doubt and
not the most confident person. So it's actually really good
to hear you say that. Because darr alphie what triggers
(14:30):
in our brain to to code switch safety? I really
think it's about safety, right. So, when going back to
where everyone has said, I really loved that Jared specifically
has talked about code which is not just what happens
when black we as black people are in white spaces.
We coach, which when we talk to our grandparents, think
about that. I happen to be married to a person
(14:51):
whose father is a preacher. Now I know how I
like to dress, especially like twenty years ago, I ain't
never had no clothes one right, but I wouldn't do that,
I please, and if I can still get away with it,
and then sometimes I do. But it was when I
would go to their house right the coast, which was
I wouldn't wear the stuff that I would wear every
day because I felt like it wouldn't be respectful for
(15:12):
their values. And more so, I really do think what
triggers in our brain a couple of things. One is safety,
but two is you're remembering times when you've been chastised
with little or something negative has happened in response to
you showing up in a certain way. Think about little kids,
right the first time the little kid. Think about people
we knew growing up with my family from the Deep South,
(15:32):
I'm not what my family is. The first time a
kid come out their mouth the wrong way to the parents,
some kid, you get popped in the mouth, so the
next time you're not gonna open your mouth and say
anything sideways or I can remember with you know, being
with friends and parents would be like, don't look at
me in that tone of voice, fix your face. Do
you know what I'm saying? And so I think it's
(15:52):
those are just examples from within our community. But I
think when you're in other situations, just like Travel was saying,
think about what it means to be a visibly open
out person of the lgbt Q community and go into
spaces where you're not sure where people are right how
they feel. Your literal safety depends on you scoping that
(16:14):
out before you reveal who you are, because that literally
count me in life or death. So I think that's
what it is. You know, past past behavior is the
best predicted future behavior. So if people are not treating
you right, then I think the next time you think
about go ahead, Jared, I would say, gam as as
I think about you specifically. Um, I I found earlier
(16:37):
today I'd forgotten this, but on my wall up here,
I just I just read design my Office. So on
my wall up here, this photo is of you and
I and Jada when we met when you guys launched
Red Table Talk, and it was I didn't interview with
you all for essence because you guys were doing the
big launch event and we all got to sit down
(16:58):
with y'all for like five or in minutes, and uh
it was special to me because I felt like I
know Jada Pinkett Smith and like I just saw this show,
and I'm I'm meeting this new woman named Adrian who's
like brand new to me, and like I didn't know
her story before, right, And I was immediately calling you
gam and like all of this stuff, and I felt
like there was a connection. But then I sat down
(17:19):
with you all, and it was so surprising to me
because y'all felt so like like family immediately, right. You
were just open and um kind and welcoming. And I
could show you the photo up close, but like it
is like us, like in a good cackle, right, and
it felt so welcome. Right. But I think that what
(17:39):
we've seen from you and Red Table Talk in general,
is like how much you're willing to open up yourselves, right,
And like I think that there are moments when you
are probably trying to code switch to not feel whatever
that negative thing is that you're telling yourself. But like
all of those things are the things that we love
(18:00):
about you, right, Like you've you've talked about one of
the things in the interview that we did. You talked
about how you had been married multiple times and how
that was kind of challenging for you, right, and the
ways that that showed up in your next marriage. But
it's like, yeah, but my daddy's been married three times,
and my parents, my mom and dad have been married,
my mom and said dad have been married twice. And
I've been in and out of a lot of relationships
that never showed up to a marriage, right, And so
(18:22):
like to hear your story, I'm like, well, gam is
doing the damn thing, so like let's keep it going, right,
And like it's a thing that makes you feel weaker, insecure,
or something that you want to run away from, but
it's something that I want to lean into and be like,
you know what, she kept going and kept trying, and
like I want to do that too. And as I'm
a single person that's thirty seven years old, I'm like,
you know what, Gam Gamm is doing it, So Damna,
(18:46):
why don't I keep trying? Like and and like that
is something that I want to lean into because I
see how you do it. And so as you are
being honest and real and genuine about who you are
and what you want and what you're doing and what
you believe and how you feel, like it encourages saw.
And then I go to my show, right and we
get letters all the time from people who are saying like, oh,
I send my your show to my students, or I
(19:08):
send my your show to UM to be a part
of my dissertation, or I play it for my clients
or whatever, and so all of that has this really
beautiful ripple effect when we show up as who we are.
What do you think if there are any negative effects
that code switching can have? Though? Yes, what do you think?
Dr Alfrey? I think that's sometimes we struggle with who
(19:31):
am I? If I'm a different person in all these
different spaces? Who's me? Right? And I think there's also
a part of it where it's am I valuing not
just who am I? But am I valuing all of
who I am? If I'm showing up as a different
version of me in all these spaces? And I think
for me personally, one of the things that I have
struggled with in the past is who am I not
(19:53):
representing effectively? If I show up and I'm something other
than you know, proud African American woman, Do you know
what I mean? In these spaces? Are proud gen X
black woman? Yeah? For me, sometimes it just feels like
I'm being phony, Yes, you know, yes, absolutely absolutely it
feels like that. So I think those are the some
(20:13):
conversations that we have internally when we coach with and
think about. And I'm telling like, I was doing my
little valley girl thing before, but I can't remember how
difficult it was to I would show up in spaces
and think that's what I was supposed to do, and
now I get beat down for it. So my freshman year,
Howard Chad wan't no joke. They like they snashed me hard.
Do you know what I'm saying, Like, girl, this ay? No?
(20:34):
Like they would say the name of the white radio station.
We don't listen to YouTube up and here you better
get your mind right, you know. And so that was
a struggle. So it's sort of there's a piece of
it where it was, okay, where can I be all
of who I am all in one place at one time?
And I think, to Jared's point, in Travell's point, over time,
what I learned is I have to take ownership of that.
(20:57):
But that was my journey, Like I have to be
in control with that, and I still struggle with it.
But for me, those are some of the struggles that
I think people have when they code switch. I feel
like for black people, I just feel like we're doing
it all the time. We're doing it all the time.
It's like it's always been us trying to assimilate into
(21:18):
this white world. But can you imagine if a white
person came into a black space and tried to like
talk like how we do and our lingo and all
of that, Like it would be insulting. We'd be like stop,
we don't even have to imagine exactly, don't you do it? Hanks?
(21:46):
The whole time, I was like chet Hanks had mercy
first of all. First of all, like you know, and
you know immediately when it's happening, right when the person
comes in and they're speaking language that is not theirs, right,
when they're when they're affecting a dialect that does not
belong to them, right, or something that they have. Yeah,
(22:07):
one of our linguists, one of the linguals that we've
been interviewing for the book, has been talking about how
there's a difference between seeing something and learning it right,
and like you can see something but like you didn't
learn that, you just saw it on TikTok right, like
you know it and you feel it, you feel it
is different and like I think when you say, like
what are the negative sides of like of code switching. UM.
(22:29):
A friend of mine would just shared this with me
in the last week, and he was saying how he
was talking with his pastor about his sexuality and how
challenging it was for him, UM as a bisexual person
to like be able to embrace his his his truth,
but also to like share that with his family, And
his pastor said to him, if you don't tell your family,
if you don't come out, you're never gonna fully believe
(22:51):
that they really love who you are, right. And I
thought that that was so powerful, it like it rocked
me because I thought to myself, like, if we are
not fully honest about who we are and show up
in these places without like having to play a role
or coach switch or beat something else, like, it's really
hard to to receive the positive feedback if we don't
(23:11):
feel like we're being genuine. Because I feel like you're
giving me feedback to like this character that I put
on as opposed to who I am, UM, and I
think that that's been something really important for me. I
agree with you, Jared, and I think there's a fear
that when I reveal all of who I am to
you You're gonna reject it absolutely, you know what I'm saying.
And so I think that sometimes holds people back from
(23:32):
because it's beautiful when people receive us. It's really as
hard as hell when they don't, especially people we love
for people we have affection for. So I think when
we do that, we're so vulnerable. So, you know, I
just I would just add that one tiny little travel
I see you shaking your head. What do you want
to say? I'm nodding throughout all of this. Well, first
(23:54):
on the on the aspect of like, you know, white
people who have their black sense, and it also gets
me thinking about, you know, the black people who who
don't come from a particular type of black experience, but
also wanna you know, yo yo yo it up right,
And it makes me think to what you said earlier,
(24:15):
gam about that authenticity. And I think what it is
is that like those of us who come from certain
types of communities, right where we talk a particular type
of way, you can hear it and you can feel
the authenticity, right. You can feel when someone has lived,
you know, a yo yo yo type of experience, right,
(24:37):
and you can feel when somebody just learned it like
Jared said on Ticktop, because we know, we all know
of those white folks right that did grow up you know,
in the hood, right, who have that little particular swagger
that we find acceptable, right and that we that we
you know, put our hands around. We know those folks,
(24:57):
and we provide space for those folks. It's the folks
who don't know the culture, who don't know the community,
the struggle, the experience, who were all side eyeing in
a particular way. And it goes back to this this
point about authenticity. It's about the culture. It's about what
you have lived and experience, not just what you know,
have seen on TV. And you know, we've been kind
(25:29):
of focusing really on the black and the white community,
but there's all cultures in in here in the United States.
So I'm wondering how it might feel for other cultures.
I don't know, because I'm I'm not that you know.
I think that when we think about code switching and
like dumbing ourselves down as any person that's a part
(25:52):
of a marginalized community, is code switching somewhere? Right? And
I would dare say when we did our episode of
code switching, um, we got emails from white folks that
were like, oh, well, I coach which when I go
from this place to that place? And I was like,
I don't know if that's the same. And I was like,
hold on, straight, white man, I don't know if that's
(26:13):
what we're talking about, right, But but I do recognize
that there is a bit of a way that we
turned something on when we get home to our family,
as opposed to something on when we're at work, versus
something on when we're on the road and they cut
us off and we have a couple of choice words
about who your mama might be, right, so, and so
(26:35):
we engage all of those things in different ways. And
so I was like, Okay, white people, you might be
coach witching, but it's not the same, right it is.
It is similar, but it's not exactly the same. It's
not necessarily for the same safety. That's right. And no,
it sounds cliche. All of our lives would be if
we just had the opportunity to be with people in
the fullness and unapologetic nous to coin a phrase of
(26:59):
who they are, Like, how beautiful would that be? To
just enjoy people exactly as they are in the most
authentic versions of themselves. I just feel like it would
just be heavenly. Oh absolutely, But we've got such a
long way to go to get to that, sadly sadly enough,
but that's just the truth of the matter. But Jared
and and Travel, you guys have mentioned this book that
(27:22):
you're working on several times. So Travel, let's start with you.
I want you to tell us what this book is about,
because you guys, once it's out, you guys are gonna
come back and we're gonna talk about it. But I'm
very excited, So tell everybody what this book is all about. Yeah.
So the name of the book is historically Black Phrases.
It's basically going to be this coffee table sized homage
(27:46):
to the special way that that unique razzle dazzle that
we as black folks put on the English language. And
so we've come up with these phrases that we think
are historically black, everything from I ain't want of your
little free ins to do you have McDonald's money? Okay?
(28:09):
And so we're putting we're putting definitions to these phrases.
We're pulling pop culture moments about these phrases, and we're
interviewing a variety of different folks about how black language
has shown up in their own unique experiences, because ultimately,
our goal is really to pay homage to how we
(28:30):
as black folks speak, because it's it's unique, it's special,
and it deserves kind of that type of treatment. Jared,
did you want to add anything? Um, I, first of all,
really glad to have Travel as a co writer and
co publicist on this because they can sum it up
very very well. Um. This started out as like a
(28:50):
joke that I was doing on Facebook, like doing like
posts about what it meant to, you know, to say
trouble don't last always or you know what, I guess
I can say fun boy, but like what a funk
boy is, right, and and why we use that language
and where it comes from and what he probably is
acting like right, And so it started off as that,
(29:13):
and then people were saying back to me like, um, well,
when are you putting this in a book? And I
was like, UM, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm I'm working
on that right now. And so over the course of
six years, it has become uh, this book that is
now going to be available next fall and uh is
due in a couple of days, so you know, pray
for us. But but we're excited about it, and I'm
(29:35):
excited to get a copy. Put me first on the list.
I think it's gonna be awesome. So is there anything
else in this conversation about code switching? Is there? I
want to give each of you an opportunity to like
(29:57):
give your last comments on it before we wrap up. Um. Oh,
the one thing I always tell myself and I want
people to remember, sometimes showing up justice who you are
is an act of resistance. That's it. Uh Now, I
didn't think about it that way. Yeah, you being gam
(30:18):
and think about it when Gam is at the table.
I remember one episode you you said something like I
don't remember what the topic was, but you're like, you know,
my generation, we can talk about stuff like that. That's real.
And you gave permission for a lot of other people
who are of your generation to say, she write won't
won't get down like that. You know what I'm saying.
And so, just like Travell and Jared talking about the book,
(30:39):
the two things came to mind for me. Let's red
table it all all the black folks. We know what
that means. We're saying, let's red table it right. And um,
you know just what they're doing. Or when you were
talking about I think it was travel white folks who
you know, if you grew up in that environment. The
first thing that came to my head was Tina Marie, right.
I was like Tina ree while having eternal invite to
(31:01):
the cookout. And when you're black and you say invite
to the cookout, everybody know what that means. So yeah,
So the authenticity of it, I that's and so you
just being you, gam Jared, just being Jared, Travel, just
being Travel. There's so many times when we've been pushed
and required and asked and cajoled into not being who
we are. Sometimes just you, even if it's just for
(31:23):
a moment, showing up in the fullness of who you are,
That in and of itself is an active resistance because
you're taking your control back. Wow. I needed to hear
that Travel you next. I love that. I was going
to say something very similar about the utility of bringing
your full self into spaces where you feel like that
(31:45):
full self is not welcome. Um, because what it does,
and you know, I want to be clear, it's not
always easy, you know. I think many of us who
have these conversations about code switching, like still work through
the anxiety that I know for me as a black
Clear trans person when I'm going into a variety of
(32:07):
spaces where I am the only black clear trans person,
when I make the decision to show up with a
lip on and my nails done and in some heels, like,
there's a lot of anxiety that goes into presenting this
image of confidence to the world. Um, Because to Dr
(32:28):
Alfie's point, I know that me being in these spaces
as I am will necessarily change the makeup of that space.
And hopefully somebody else who's in that room who has
been feeling like they had to put on a mask
to be there, they will take their mask off, right,
(32:51):
and they will allow someone else to come behind them
who also can take their mask off. And I think
that's how we shift a culture. That's how we get
to a space where we can be our authentic selves
at all times right and not have to make these
these trade offs or these calibrations for safety or to
keep our job or to you know, stay in good
(33:15):
graces with various folks. I wanted to to say lastly
that I think we touched on privilege. Um, really briefly,
but I do think that one of the things that
we are all fortunate as people whose um personalities and
careers are really informing what we do right now and
allowing us to show up um as our full selves
with our personalities. I want to also acknowledge that everybody
(33:37):
does not get to do that at work, right and
recognizing that, um, the places that you don't have to
code switch are probably the places where you have the
most privileged and probably the places that you feel the
most powerful and authentic, right, the places that you're able
to just show up and like, you know, sit back
(33:59):
in the sea, just be who you are, and where
what you wore right, your hair looks, how your hair looks,
your makeup is done or not, your voice sounds the
way that it does or does not. You use that
word as opposed to that word right, those are probably
the places where you feel like you have the most power,
the most the most ability to like be be your
(34:20):
own self. And so UM, I want to acknowledge that
everybody doesn't get to do that at work, But you
might get to do that a little bit more at church,
or you might get to do that a little bit
more with your friends or you might get to do
that a little bit more where you volunteer, or you
might get to do that a little bit more over
here over there, and and think about like how your
privilege is showing up and how you get to do
that and how you get to to to be who
(34:40):
you are, uh, and embrace it in the places that
you can, because, like I said, everybody doesn't get to
do it everywhere. Yeah. Important, I guess we gotta wrap
up because we could go on, could we not? Yes? Yes, yes, yes.
(35:02):
Now we're gonna do the segment, wouldn't you like to know?
And we're gonna start with you, Jarrett. Jarrett, what book
are you currently reading? I'm reading Balance, Positioning Yourself to
Do All Things Well by Tory Roberts, who also happens
to be my pastor. And so I'm I'm currently in
that book right now and and really enjoying the ways
that it's kind of opening me up and making anything differently.
(35:24):
And what about you, travel I just finished reading Shine Bright,
a very personal history of Black women in pop written
by a fabulous music journalist, Danielle Smith. It's part biography
of black women in pop music, part memoir of Danielle's story.
She was the first black um editor of Vibe magazine,
(35:47):
first black woman editor of Billboard magazine. And so it's
just really really good. And if you can listen to
the audio book, do that because she reads herself and
it's so wonderful. I know. I love audiobooks. What about
You to Alfie, there's two at the same time. I'm
audiobooking The Godfather and then I'm always reading this book call.
It's a very tiny short book. Um, I want to
(36:09):
see You Shining. There's a super producer. His name is
Mark Batson. He and I co wrote it and it's
just it's very uplifting and it was done during the
pandemic to help people through difficult times. And it goes
with the album that he made literally uplifting song. My
favorite song is um, you are Elegant and it's all
positive affirmations. And so I'm reading, always reading that one
(36:29):
and listening to The Godfather. Oh that's that's awesome. Okay,
moving on, what's one thing you want to get off
your chest? Jarrett? The thing I'm really upset about this week,
like that I really want to get off of my chest.
And this might feel small and don't judge me, gam
but I'm mad at like subscription services that don't let
(36:51):
me cancel their subscription within the app. And I know
that's very specific, but yes, I'm talking to you. You
can believe this out if you need to Orange theory.
But like, I just want to pause for a few months. Okay,
I just need a couple of months to like do
my own thing. But you want to charge me more money.
You want me to sign the paperwork, you want me
to come in, you want me to give blunt just
(37:13):
to pause. It's irritating me and I'm I'm feeling a
way about it, that's all. I don't blame you. I
would be irritated as well. What about you? Dr Alphie Um?
Oh god, I have to but I'll pick one. The
one I want to pick is I want to get
off my chest that we should hold space for all
(37:35):
the black people who over the weekend still showed up,
including us today, showed up and did what they had
to do in the aftermath of the terrorist attack in Buffalo.
We're mourning, it's vicarious trauma, but we're still showing up
to work. And the fact that nobody they're not too
many people who understand that they're still asking us for stuff.
(37:55):
That's what I want to get off my chest. People
need to chill for a man, just give us a minute.
Oh well, I feel like this is going to be
a very start left turn. Um from the serious nature
of Dr Alfie's point. That's okay. That was such a
good point though, Dr Alfiat because yeah, that people just
don't get it. Either they don't get it or they
(38:16):
don't care. Give me, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme. So
don't don't worry travel, will you know? Yeah? Follow that,
follow that. I just wanted to give the listener a
little a little disclaimer that I'm taking a left and
the thing that i want to get off my chest,
which is something I'm always complaining about, is you know,
(38:37):
I feel like I coined this term a few years ago.
B F B. It stands for big footed b I
T C h S. These are people such as myself
who have big feet but can't, like struggle to find
high heels in our size in store. Okay, And so
I just I want to tell all of the shoemaking
(38:58):
people out there that I need them to carry bigger
sizes in the store. Okay, somebody else was just talking
about this. I don't know who it was. When I
was just talking to somebody and they were complaining about
the same thing you are with the store. Don't even
mess with the store. You gotta order them joints. You
(39:19):
can't them jones. You can't do it. I'm telling you,
I as a as a big footed boy, if I
can keep the bee, I will say that, like trying
to find a size fourteen shoe, it is depressing, it
is upsetting. It is I'm gonna start calling it racist
and discriminatory or whatever else I how to call it.
For people to start making bigger damn shoes. Jet, you
(39:39):
were size fourteen, A fourteen. I'm six ft three and
aware of fourteen size shoe and finding it. It's not easy.
I understand your play. I haven't looked for a heel,
but you know, I mean, listen, once you get past
forget it. It's crazy, all right. What's the motto that
(40:01):
you live by? Travel um A model that I live by.
I sign all of my emails the same way, and
that slay on with an exclamation point. I just always
want myself and everyone that I come in contact with
to slay on, slay the days late, the nights late,
whatever you gotta slay, but just lay on. And what
(40:23):
about you, Jared, I lately have been saying to myself,
bring all of yourself, but don't make it about you. Um.
And that's something that I've been trying to do more.
And I mean we've been talking about that in this conversation.
Is like, I want to like bring more of myself
to the spaces where I'm asked to come and provide
thought or feedback or insight or experience or wisdom or whatever.
(40:45):
I want to bring all of myself to those spaces,
but I don't want to make it about me. Yeah,
I like that. I like that. What about you? Dr Alfhie?
This is easy. But I speak tear rble teeny bit
teeny tie a little bit of French. And so I
have this one phrase, I know phrases. One phrase I
always say is just sweet puss Um. I am peace.
(41:08):
I'm probably saying that wrong too, but I am peace.
And I always remind myself because pieces pieces paramount for me.
That's the most important thing in my life. I feel
like is peace first. And we ended on a positive note.
So I like that too, because the topic was heavy.
Where can we find you all on social media? Starting
with you, Jarret, You can find me everywhere at Jarrett's Hill,
(41:29):
Jarrett two rs and two tease because my parents wanted
to be a little bit different, and you can find
our podcast. Look, I can't ever find my name on
a key chain at at a theme park, and I've
talked to my therapist about it for years. Um. But
I also would encourage you to go check out our
podcast Fantai, where we talk about the things that we
are fans of but also have some anti feelings about.
(41:50):
It's a portmanteau of those two words fan and anti.
You can find us everywhere at fan Thai podcast Everywhere,
Fanti Podcast on Twitter and Instagram. I am on Twitter
at travel Anderson t R E v e l L
Anderson and on Instagram at Ray Jean r A y
z h O N and Dr Alfie. So my podcast
(42:11):
is couched in color um all one word, and we're
on Instagram and Facebook and YouTube, but you connect to
that through my website, which is Dr Alfie d r
A L f I E F in the middle is
the f Is and Frank Um and at Dr Alfie
like on every platform except Snapchat because I still ain't
figured it out. Yea, I feel you on that for sure.
(42:36):
Thank you Jared at Travel and Dr Alfie for stopping by.
Positively GAM. I love speaking with you guys today. Thank
you so much, and that's our show. You can follow
me online at gammy. Narris also help us out by
leaving a five star review on Apple Podcasts and by
hitting the follow button on I Heart Radio. Stay grateful, y'all.
(42:58):
Positively gam is produce used by Red Table Talk podcast
and I Heart Radio. Executive producers are Adrian Banfield, Nars,
Balin Jethro and Jada Pinkett Smith. Our audio engineer is
Calvin Bailiff and our associate producer is Irene Bischoff Berger.
Our theme song is produced by d Beats.
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