June 7, 2022 • 30 mins
Gam sits down with the creator of P-Valley, Katori Hall, and they discuss everything from how the show came to be, who inspired the characters, and how they both have taken pole dancing classes.
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@KatoriHall Katori’s Twitter
@katorihall Katori’s Facebook
Host Information:
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
What's up, everybody. I'm Gammy and this is positively gam
I'm so excited for today's guests because we're talking about
the hit television show on Stars P Valley. I mean,
I love that show like it was so innovative. I
was like, what is happening? Oh my god? We love Yeah.
The series is an adaptation of Katri halls play Pussy
(00:26):
Valley and follow several people who work at a strip
club in the Mississippi Delta. The critically acclaimed and record
breaking series returned for its second season on June the three,
So if you haven't already, you gotta get to it.
Joining me today is my guest Katri Hall. She is
a Pulitzer Prize, Olivier Award winning and Tony nominated playwright
(00:51):
from Memphis, Tennessee. The play that I love so much
that you wrote was Mountain Top, which was the fictionalized
version of the Last Night of Martin Luther King's Life.
I love that play. I didn't even know you had seen. Oh,
of course, absolutely absolutely. I saw it in Baltimore. She
(01:12):
is the showrunner and executive producer of the hit Stars
drama series P Valley. So welcome, Kuturi to positively gam
I'm so happy to be here. And like I said,
I'm such a such a fan, but we are a
fan of yours and definitely a fan of P Valley.
So tell me what made you decide to write a
(01:33):
play number one about strippers and then to then turn
it into a television series like what Sparred that? So
you know, I'm just a home girl from the South
and I grew up going to trip last Okay, so
I knew that it was this strong, vibrant culture. I think,
you know, when most people think about a shrip club,
(01:56):
they think, you know, it's a full of sad, struggling women.
And and I would go to strip clubs, I would
see athletes, I would see like do so latesque performers
whipping around the pole and so fast forward. I was
living in New York and I started taking pole dancing
classes myself, and yeah, that's right, that's right. Yeah took
(02:19):
pole dancing classes. Like. I didn't do it for very long, though,
I have to say that I did not keep up
with it. I only took it. I only took three classes.
But it was very liberating. It really was absolutely and
what you said right there liberating, and when I took
those classes, I felt so sexually empowered. I felt limba,
(02:40):
you know, I was just like such a beautiful art form,
and so I really wanted to delve into the lives
of the women who created this art form. And I
knew that obviously, you know, it comes out of you know,
the exotic dancing and the South, and so I just
really wanted to do this fusion of my love for
(03:02):
the South, my love for dancing, and my love for
just you know, women who are about their hustle. So
I ended up researching it for six years. I visited
over forty clubs, interviewed over forty dancers. I remember I
celebrated my thirtieth birthday in the locker room of Sin
City in New York City. I was just really in
(03:24):
love with the strength of the women and how resilient
they were, even though, as we all know, the choice
is hard. It can be hard when it comes to
deciding to be a part of that life. And so
you know, Pussy Valley just ended up being this excavation
of the hardships, the struggles, but also the dreams, Like
these women are dreamers, their hustlers, and so I was
(03:47):
just so grateful that I was able to research for
so long so I can get all these details. And
so I ended up doing this play, which ended up
being produced at Mixed Blood Theater in Minneapolis. And and
when I saw the play, I was like, oh, Ship,
this is the wrong medium. This is supposed to be
a TV show. Ah, So you saw that as soon
(04:08):
as you saw the thought as soon as I saw
the plays, like, there's so much going on, and I
wanted people to have Uncle Clifford and Mercedes and Miss
Mississippi in their living rooms, not just in the theater.
I didn't want people to have to travel to a
space to be in the same room with them. I
wanted to bring those characters inside of people's houses. And
(04:29):
so that's why I decided to flip it into a
TV show, because TV is just such an accessible medium
and quite frankly my favorite medium. Yeah, it's so interesting
because I took that class, but I've never been to
a strip Closs. Know what we gotta get you to
the Closs. I know. Now I'm feeling like I've done
myself and injustice, like I probably need to actually experience
(04:52):
it live and see what it's really like. If I
were to do that, Katri, where do you think I
should go for that experience? You have to get down
to Magic City and they lay on them. Okay, Okay,
I was so inspired by that place. We actually have
more than a few dancers who are our core dancers
who actually work at Magic City Kingdom Diamonds down in
(05:13):
Miami and in Atlanta. That got an Atlanta spot now
is a really great place to go, just because it's
a theatrical experience. It is, it's spectacle, its show. You know,
there's new to the Yes that it's kind of the
requirement being a stripper, but like I said, these women
are athletes what they can do on the pole with
(05:34):
their bodies and also together. Like I get blown away
when I see two women on the pole together because
they're literally holding each other up and the figure around
like the wind. So those are the two places that
I think, you know you should go. You gotta get
down South because the other strip club culture is different. Yeah.
I actually am trying to plan a trip to Atlanta
(05:59):
and this year for a different event. So I might
have to include a trip to what was the name
of it, magic Magic City City? Okay, I might have
to do that. So when you were in the room
pitching p Valley to the TV executives, you know what
was their response? They're like, is this woman insane? Or
(06:21):
was it well received? Did they jump on it right away?
There was a lot of collection of pearls. I remember
I brought this sizzle reel and it had that song
as the background, like cut off together, and they were
just like, whoa, this is a lot and you don't.
(06:41):
It's understandable, but also frustrating, right, you know, I knew
that the strip club culture was something to be celebrated
and understood, and you know they were just looking at
it with you know, something of their noses. Me I'm like,
oh my gosh, it could be exploited. It could you know,
it could. It could have easily gone in the complete
wrong direction, in the wrong hands. I totally get that,
(07:04):
totally got it. There are some places that wouldn't even
let me come in and pitch. They were like, no,
we're not stepping on that cultural land mind. But stars.
I remember it was the last place I pitched, and
I remember I was late, you know, the l A traffic,
and I remember getting in there and I just poured out,
you know, the why of why I wanted to do
(07:25):
this series and tell this story. And I think at
the core of it, you know, this is about celebrating
the hard work and black women and black women who
are survivors. Yes, you know, this particular profession is very
complicated and not everyone understands it. It's very misunderstood. But
they saw past the kind of lastidiousness. I think, you know,
(07:45):
some people came to the pitch with in their mind
and they really saw the truth of what I was
trying to do, which was to humanize this world and
these women. And I think the way that you do that,
the way that you humanize the character is by making
them so three dimensional, like we actually get into their
lives so that we can relate to them. Is that right? Absolutely? Absolutely?
(08:09):
You know that I was so blessed to have been
able to sit in not only the locker room with
a lot of these women, but also going to their homes,
meeting their sons, meeting their husbands, you know, really just
integrating myself into their lives like a fly on the wall.
And so I really created that almost journalistic approach when
it came to the research in helping me, you know,
(08:32):
create this fictionalized world where everyone felt so human. Everyone
feels like a sister or a cousin or a mama.
You know, we know all of these women and all
of these men. We've crossed paths with them many times,
and I'm just so glad that our audience not only
they see, you know, their family members, but oftentimes they
(08:53):
see themselves when they watch the value. Now, I want
to talk a bit about the casting too, because I'm
assuming the women and that are cast in the series
are real strippers. Is that correct or no? Then how
the hell did you so? How in the hell did
they learn to day? It was a process? Listen, because
(09:14):
what I have done is watch a pole dancing contest
on YouTube and you have to be strong and powerful
and it's no joke. It was crazy. What's so cool
is that we have very long casting process because for me,
as a writer, I'm very adamant that the soul matches
(09:35):
the soul of the character that I've created. Quite frankly,
the acting and who that person is, what they're going
to bring to the role in terms of essence, it's
the most important thing I left out in that. Let's
talk about Brandy Evans, for example, she used to be
a background dancer. She's danced for Snoop Dogg, She's danced
(09:55):
for Katie Perry. She just she was a dancer. She
had never you know, tripped, but you know she knows
about a muscle memory and getting routines down and so,
you know, for her, in terms of her particular trajectory,
we just threw her in all dancing classes. She followed
dancers like she studied and learned the art of it,
(10:19):
just like she learned the art of hip hop dance.
Then you had other people like Shannon Thornton, who has
never been off the pole in our lives. Let's step
back for a minute, because Brandy Evans plays Mercedes, so
she's the main character. So who is this Shenon Thornton
plays Miss Mississippi, right, yes, and so that's her thing.
(10:41):
But now she trained so hard, gotten so sore. You know,
we put them like in a boot camp, so if
they were where of the city that they were living in.
Once they got cast, we put them on a pole
dancing program and so they learned, you know, from level
one the way as far as they could go in
(11:01):
terms of cultivating their skill set, so that when they
got to set, they could do something, but of course
we have these amazing dance doubles who step in and
step up and do the way more complicated tricks. But
let me tell you something, our ladies they sell it
like you could. You cannot think that it's knocked them
(11:22):
up on the pole, just because the way that it's
edited and just how hard they work, Like we can
really overlap a lot of their the dancing between them
and the doubles when people are watching the show. So
it's been a hard road, but they're hard workers. And
so in terms of casting, you know, like I said,
it's all about are they really good actors? They feel
(11:44):
like the character that comes first, and you know, the
skill set of pole dancing, it's something that they've all
kind of trained together. Now, the first season of the
show was entirely directed by women. I'm sure that was intentional,
(12:08):
and why it's interesting. I was open men directing, I
really was, but you know, I have a very tough
interview process. So I remember during the interview process, I
would be like, so what's your idea of the female gays?
And also interesting was that the male directors that I
you know, asked this question too. They never really have
(12:30):
thought about it. They had never really done it in
their work. They felt like it was necessary. And for me,
the Female Gays is about centering the female experience looking
through a woman's eyes. And it just so you know,
every time a woman director, you know, stepped up to
the play, they had already been dealing with it within
their own work. And they also understood that, you know,
(12:51):
historically women have not been framed so particularly women like
strippers or or prostitute sex workers, and so you can
very easily just center on the sexiness of a woman
instead of who a woman is, who that character is.
And so because this show is so much it's filtered
(13:12):
through the female games, it's you know, those women, those
female directors, they just answered that question so well that
it was just obvious that those were the women who
were the right folks for the job. Yeah, and like
you said, it is a topic and how it's portrayed,
you know, is extremely important because it can go left
and they can go straight to the sex and the
(13:34):
sibiousness that tends to come along when you think about
strip clubs. For example, I remember asking a guy if
you were, you know, lensing a beautiful dance, what would
your focus on. And the guy was like, yeah, we'll
travel the camera will travel down her body and we
will see her shape and then we'll go behind her
and to see how plump she is. And it was
(13:56):
just like, nah, dog, that's what we need. So what
were the kinds of comments and that you've gotten from
fans of the show, Like when you're walking down the street,
I don't really be walking down the street too much.
I'm like I'd been holed up in the house trying
to finish these scripts. But you know, when I have
(14:18):
been able to, like it's usually like my you know,
my family like it like gatherings, you know. Unfortunately, hitter
or whatever, they're just like, oh my god, look cause
listen you did. That's like my life. That's my uncle,
that's actually me. You know, there's a lot of, like
I said, people feeling reflective that you know, sometimes people
(14:38):
are like, okay, episode two, there was too much. There's
a lot of lou y'all went there. Now. I saw
an interview when you said that like Uncle Clifford was
based on some members of your family or people that
you know. Is that true? Absolutely true? So Uncle Clifford
is a fusion of my real uncle Clifford, and my
mom and my dad. I wanted this character to feel
(14:59):
very feminine and masculine and equal measure, and so I
just pulled the best and the worst attributes from those
three people and like put it in a pot, mix
it together, and then out pop the fiction of Uncle Clifford.
And something that I like to do in my work
is I always love to name a really great character
after a family member. It's a way to you know,
(15:20):
pay homage to my living ancestors, the people who are
with me, who raised me, who you know, make me
right the way that I do, which is you know,
steeped in Southern nous and just those kind of like
quick witty things that Uncle Clifford says and the rules.
So it's the way that people talk in the show
(15:41):
is how I grew up speaking. And the people who
you know, my closest family members, they just really poured
that sound into me, and so it comes out of
my fingertips every time that I write. Now for the listeners,
in case you don't know, Uncle Clifford runs the Pink.
The Pink is the club and un Clifford is the
one who runs the club. Are there any other characters
(16:04):
that were plucked from your life. Really feel like every
single character feels like someone I've known, or there's a
sliver of me inside of all of the characters, yes,
in terms of their personalities. And I grew up with
all sisters, and so the sisterhood that happens in the
locker room and on stage and on the main floor
(16:26):
is something that I know very well, having grown up
with a lot of women and a lot of extrogens
in the house, you know, for good or or bad.
It's inspired by everything that I've experienced in my life,
in addition to all of the research that I've done
over the years. When it comes to strip club and strippers. Okay,
then let's talk a little bit about the relationship between
(16:48):
Uncle Clifford and Little Murder the rapper on there. I
was surprised by that. Why were you surprised? It just
seemed like a hook up to me. I just it's like,
he's a rapper, Like, okay, so what was that about.
So that's exactly because I wanted people to be like,
oh my god, what is this? They feel like a
(17:10):
very odd couple. And yet yeah, and all the undercover
you know, because that's real it is some folks out
here any streets and they're trying to figure out who
they are, who they're attracted to. And it was very surprising,
I think, you know, in in that first episode to
Uncle Clifford for a homeboy, Little Murder played by j
(17:31):
Alfons Nicholson to be like, you know, all just like
lovey dovey, like just looking Uncle Clifford up and down.
And so we really wanted to center a black queer
relationship in the show's still very undercover, undercover, particularly in
season one, and you know, Uncle Clifford being much older
(17:54):
than the Murder, having gone through a lifegown south where
the home of be it just extremely ranked to the
point where you know, you know, you can get killed
for being who you are, still can be killed for
being who you are, right And so really did not
want to put their relationship out on front Street, and
the Little Murder was all trying to you know, take
(18:15):
care out on dates and whatnot. And so if anyone
has seen you know, the first season, at the end,
Lt Murder actually shuts her after all that kind of
you know, rolling up on her, and that really is
a slap in the face to the character of Uncle
Clifford because it's just, oh my gosh, my my worst
fear of not being recognized and embraced by someone that
(18:39):
I could potentially love. You know, it's traumatizing. And so
we spent the first season really looking into that, that
down lowness and how it's very hurtful on an emotional level. Um,
and we're gonna pull that thread into season two, and
I hope people are ready for the roller coaster that
we're about to take them off. In regards to those
two write there, Yeah, I'm ready. Now I want to
(19:01):
talk a little bit about Mercedes and her mom because
I was sick of her. I was sick to her
mom at the end of Look girl, what church lady. Yes,
it's poor Mercedes. Is she ever gonna be without I
guess you can't really give everything away, But is she
ever be able to recoup from that? Because I'm like,
that was everything. It was all her money. But for
(19:24):
all y'all who don't know, like Mercedes, who was our handline,
our best dancer at the club, you know, she had
been trying to retire for years in order to you know,
cultivate a relationship with her daughter and to get this
gym for these major retes. You know, she was a
coach for a major scene, and so she had say
to all her scuirrell, all her money and her hypocritical bible,
(19:48):
something relot of a mama, her trees would find deals,
all of her money for the dance studio. And so
her dream wiped out by her mother is trauma like
like on on twenty five, like it just up ended
everything that she'd have been working for. And so the audience,
(20:10):
which totally made sense, hates her truths were by included,
you know, And I think it's because you know, there
are a lot of mother daughter relationships that are very
traumatic and they're toxic, right, and I think that storyline,
in particular, those two characters really allow us to see
(20:32):
our own relationships with our mother's and them and beyond
the relationship with the mother. For me, what was so
off putting was the hypocritical nature of her of the
mother with the church, the whole church thing, and you know,
the thing of being down south where there's these respectability
of politics at play, where you know, I ran into
(20:54):
that when I was even pitching the series, right in
these rooms where people were thumbing their nose I don't
know if we should do a know about strippers there,
you know, are these women who have family members who
they'll take the money that they're making, you know, shaking
it because right, they'll talk about them the next second,
because it's not seen as something that's moral. Um. And
(21:16):
I really wanted to highlight that because I just think
that there's a lot of judgment in our community, in
every community, real talk, and so I think this particular
relationship allows us to really deconstruct those feelings and those
tensions when it comes to how religion oftentimes plays a
very unfortunate role when it comes to how there's divides
(21:40):
and like moral judgment communities and our families. To lastly,
but not least, I love the relationship between Mississippi and Diamond.
Is that right? Yeah? Because I think Diamond is so sweet.
Are we gonna see that blossom more? We're gonna see something.
We're gonna see something. Okay, We're not gonna give it away.
I understand, I totally understanding. Before we wrap up, Cotri,
(22:09):
I want to focus a little bit just on your
own career, and I wanted to know if there was
anyone growing up as you were coming and navigating your
career that you emulated. I actually had a conversation with
some folks and entertainment directors, and I was saying how
important writing is, and I just feel like we need
(22:31):
more writers, We need more Black writers, because I think
there's just such an array. We have, this an abundance
of stories that we could be telling about our lives.
And it's not all just about slavery. It's all just
about you know, drugs and gangs. We live full lives
(22:52):
as a culture, just like anybody else, but the stories
aren't being told. So I just think writing is so
important because can't you gotta start from somewhere, and it
starts with the writing. To me, I love this question
because as a Black writer, I am stepping into such
a beautiful tradition. There's so many amazing Black writers that
(23:14):
have come before me, whether it's Tony Morrison, Augus Wilson.
I would say, growing up, I thought I was going
to be a novelist. I didn't think that I was
going to step into the world of drama just because
you know, I'd like to be by myself. But then
as I grew up, I love the idea of community
(23:35):
and that's what drew me to theater. So I think
one of the writers that probably has influenced me the
most is August Willson. August Wilson absolutely giants of the
American theater, you know, just everything that he's written and
everything that he stood for. I used to remember I
met him one day and I was like, I want
to be like you when I grow up. Obviously he
(23:57):
laughed at me, but eventually I got to a u
is where I wanted to be more like me when
I grew up, and it was seeing August Wilson, you know,
write his world like the people around him that I
think made me feel as though that I could do that.
And so I would say August Wilson is probably one
of my greatest influences, particularly stepping into the world of
(24:18):
dramatic right. Yeah, I think I've seen every one of
his plays. I absolutely love him. What advice would you
have for any up and coming play rights out there?
Keep your eyes on your own paper. What I mean
by that is, oftentimes we get swept up into what
the trend is and what the industry says it's the
(24:41):
thing to do, and we want what other people got,
who they got their deal or they've getting their play
done at that place. And at the end of the day,
you have to write what makes you special, what makes
you unique. It's your voice. Try not to replicate somebody else.
You're gonna be inspired influenced by another writer. But the
more you write the stories that only you can write,
(25:03):
I think the more successful you'll be. Good advice, Good advice.
Now what do you have coming up next? What can
we look forward to? So? I have this play called
The Hot Wing King that won the Pulitzer last year.
It is going up at the Alliance Theater down in
Atlanta and early and I'm directing it, so it'll be
(25:24):
my theater directorial debut. I actually got a chance to
direct the season finale of The Valley season two, okay
this past earlier this year, which I was super proud of.
So I'm definitely stepping into my little directing lane, which
I really love. Like we need more directors of color,
female directors. This season was directed by all women as well,
(25:47):
so I just really excited to become part of the
directing family when it comes to artists. Congratulations, I'm excited
for you. Thank you, You're very welcome. I look forward
to seeing that play as well. Yeah, come on down
to Atlanta. We got to get you there, and I
know I gotta be that way. Now it's time for
(26:12):
a segment. Wouldn't you like to know? I have a
couple of rapid fire questions I'd like you to answer. Okay,
what book are you currently reading? It's interesting, I'm actually
rereading The Piano Lesson by August Wilson. It's one of
my favorite plays and it's about to be on Broadway
with Senor Jack. Yes, okay, what is one thing you
(26:33):
want to get off your chest that people need to
stop being racist? It's heartbreaking the other day the young
white kid going to Buffalo and shooting up you know,
black folks, just because of all this hatred. It's just
something that obviously is They talk about COVID being a virus,
but that's a virus. Just you know, I want everybody
(26:55):
to figure out a way to not just be Oh
I'm not racist. People have to be ti racist. So
that's you know, I'm always on my soapbox about that
is a lot of people are. Yeah, that's a really
good conversation to have. And I was on Instagram and
was looking at a comment that Amanda Seals made and
my response to that was like, yeah, how do we
(27:17):
because because it is something that we can't continue to ignore, um,
the hate of white supremacy. But it's also like, how
do you fight that exactly? You know, how do you
fight that? It's something to really think about and it's
a really important conversation that I think we need to
start having. So thank you for that. And what's the
model that you live by? That's a good one. Um.
(27:39):
Uncle Clifford has a new rule this season, and it
goes like this, don't try to be everybody a cup
of tea because you have nothing left to sit on
for yourself. That's the rule, as that thing of you
know you, you really gotta protect yourself, be yourself, don't
try and just be out there. Make sure you keep
(28:02):
something special for for you at the end of the day. Yeah,
got you. That sounds like a good one. Where can
we find you on social media? You can find me
at Atuatory Hall, Instagram, and Twittle. I was able. I
was of that generation. I was actually able to get
my name. I got it early, alight, I got my name.
(28:24):
So that's how you can find me. That where y'all
can get me a inquator Hall dot com. Awesome, thank
you so much, Thank you for stopping by Positivity Gamp
and everyone go watch p Valley. New season is out now,
come on down to the pank. My first takeaway after
(28:45):
this conversation, it's really just acknowledging the importance of black writers.
We have so many stories to tell and no one
is gonna tell them better than we will. Secondly, every
show isn't for everybody, but I hope you guys will
check out pe Valley and not dismiss it because of
some preconceived idea that you've cooked up in your head.
(29:06):
It's really a good show. It's out on Stars right now,
so check it out and that's our show. You can
follow me online at Gammy. Naris also help us out
by leaving a five star review on Apple Podcasts and
by hitting the follow up button on I Heart Radio.
Stay grateful, y'all, See you at the peak Positively. Gam
(29:28):
is produced by Red Table Talk Podcast and I Heart Radio.
Executive producers are Adrian Banfield, Naris Balin, Jethro and Jada
Pinkett Smith. Our audio engineer is Calvin Bailiff, and our
associate producer is Irene Bischoff Burger. Our theme song is
produced by D Beats five
What's up, everybody. I'm Gammy and this is positively gam
I'm so excited for today's guests because we're talking about
the hit television show on Stars P Valley. I mean,
I love that show like it was so innovative. I
was like, what is happening? Oh my god? We love Yeah.
The series is an adaptation of Katri halls play Pussy
(00:26):
Valley and follow several people who work at a strip
club in the Mississippi Delta. The critically acclaimed and record
breaking series returned for its second season on June the three,
So if you haven't already, you gotta get to it.
Joining me today is my guest Katri Hall. She is
a Pulitzer Prize, Olivier Award winning and Tony nominated playwright
(00:51):
from Memphis, Tennessee. The play that I love so much
that you wrote was Mountain Top, which was the fictionalized
version of the Last Night of Martin Luther King's Life.
I love that play. I didn't even know you had seen. Oh,
of course, absolutely absolutely. I saw it in Baltimore. She
(01:12):
is the showrunner and executive producer of the hit Stars
drama series P Valley. So welcome, Kuturi to positively gam
I'm so happy to be here. And like I said,
I'm such a such a fan, but we are a
fan of yours and definitely a fan of P Valley.
So tell me what made you decide to write a
(01:33):
play number one about strippers and then to then turn
it into a television series like what Sparred that? So
you know, I'm just a home girl from the South
and I grew up going to trip last Okay, so
I knew that it was this strong, vibrant culture. I think,
you know, when most people think about a shrip club,
(01:56):
they think, you know, it's a full of sad, struggling women.
And and I would go to strip clubs, I would
see athletes, I would see like do so latesque performers
whipping around the pole and so fast forward. I was
living in New York and I started taking pole dancing
classes myself, and yeah, that's right, that's right. Yeah took
(02:19):
pole dancing classes. Like. I didn't do it for very long, though,
I have to say that I did not keep up
with it. I only took it. I only took three classes.
But it was very liberating. It really was absolutely and
what you said right there liberating, and when I took
those classes, I felt so sexually empowered. I felt limba,
(02:40):
you know, I was just like such a beautiful art form,
and so I really wanted to delve into the lives
of the women who created this art form. And I
knew that obviously, you know, it comes out of you know,
the exotic dancing and the South, and so I just
really wanted to do this fusion of my love for
(03:02):
the South, my love for dancing, and my love for
just you know, women who are about their hustle. So
I ended up researching it for six years. I visited
over forty clubs, interviewed over forty dancers. I remember I
celebrated my thirtieth birthday in the locker room of Sin
City in New York City. I was just really in
(03:24):
love with the strength of the women and how resilient
they were, even though, as we all know, the choice
is hard. It can be hard when it comes to
deciding to be a part of that life. And so
you know, Pussy Valley just ended up being this excavation
of the hardships, the struggles, but also the dreams, Like
these women are dreamers, their hustlers, and so I was
(03:47):
just so grateful that I was able to research for
so long so I can get all these details. And
so I ended up doing this play, which ended up
being produced at Mixed Blood Theater in Minneapolis. And and
when I saw the play, I was like, oh, Ship,
this is the wrong medium. This is supposed to be
a TV show. Ah, So you saw that as soon
(04:08):
as you saw the thought as soon as I saw
the plays, like, there's so much going on, and I
wanted people to have Uncle Clifford and Mercedes and Miss
Mississippi in their living rooms, not just in the theater.
I didn't want people to have to travel to a
space to be in the same room with them. I
wanted to bring those characters inside of people's houses. And
(04:29):
so that's why I decided to flip it into a
TV show, because TV is just such an accessible medium
and quite frankly my favorite medium. Yeah, it's so interesting
because I took that class, but I've never been to
a strip Closs. Know what we gotta get you to
the Closs. I know. Now I'm feeling like I've done
myself and injustice, like I probably need to actually experience
(04:52):
it live and see what it's really like. If I
were to do that, Katri, where do you think I
should go for that experience? You have to get down
to Magic City and they lay on them. Okay, Okay,
I was so inspired by that place. We actually have
more than a few dancers who are our core dancers
who actually work at Magic City Kingdom Diamonds down in
(05:13):
Miami and in Atlanta. That got an Atlanta spot now
is a really great place to go, just because it's
a theatrical experience. It is, it's spectacle, its show. You know,
there's new to the Yes that it's kind of the
requirement being a stripper, but like I said, these women
are athletes what they can do on the pole with
(05:34):
their bodies and also together. Like I get blown away
when I see two women on the pole together because
they're literally holding each other up and the figure around
like the wind. So those are the two places that
I think, you know you should go. You gotta get
down South because the other strip club culture is different. Yeah.
I actually am trying to plan a trip to Atlanta
(05:59):
and this year for a different event. So I might
have to include a trip to what was the name
of it, magic Magic City City? Okay, I might have
to do that. So when you were in the room
pitching p Valley to the TV executives, you know what
was their response? They're like, is this woman insane? Or
(06:21):
was it well received? Did they jump on it right away?
There was a lot of collection of pearls. I remember
I brought this sizzle reel and it had that song
as the background, like cut off together, and they were
just like, whoa, this is a lot and you don't.
(06:41):
It's understandable, but also frustrating, right, you know, I knew
that the strip club culture was something to be celebrated
and understood, and you know they were just looking at
it with you know, something of their noses. Me I'm like,
oh my gosh, it could be exploited. It could you know,
it could. It could have easily gone in the complete
wrong direction, in the wrong hands. I totally get that,
(07:04):
totally got it. There are some places that wouldn't even
let me come in and pitch. They were like, no,
we're not stepping on that cultural land mind. But stars.
I remember it was the last place I pitched, and
I remember I was late, you know, the l A traffic,
and I remember getting in there and I just poured out,
you know, the why of why I wanted to do
(07:25):
this series and tell this story. And I think at
the core of it, you know, this is about celebrating
the hard work and black women and black women who
are survivors. Yes, you know, this particular profession is very
complicated and not everyone understands it. It's very misunderstood. But
they saw past the kind of lastidiousness. I think, you know,
(07:45):
some people came to the pitch with in their mind
and they really saw the truth of what I was
trying to do, which was to humanize this world and
these women. And I think the way that you do that,
the way that you humanize the character is by making
them so three dimensional, like we actually get into their
lives so that we can relate to them. Is that right? Absolutely? Absolutely?
(08:09):
You know that I was so blessed to have been
able to sit in not only the locker room with
a lot of these women, but also going to their homes,
meeting their sons, meeting their husbands, you know, really just
integrating myself into their lives like a fly on the wall.
And so I really created that almost journalistic approach when
it came to the research in helping me, you know,
(08:32):
create this fictionalized world where everyone felt so human. Everyone
feels like a sister or a cousin or a mama.
You know, we know all of these women and all
of these men. We've crossed paths with them many times,
and I'm just so glad that our audience not only
they see, you know, their family members, but oftentimes they
(08:53):
see themselves when they watch the value. Now, I want
to talk a bit about the casting too, because I'm
assuming the women and that are cast in the series
are real strippers. Is that correct or no? Then how
the hell did you so? How in the hell did
they learn to day? It was a process? Listen, because
(09:14):
what I have done is watch a pole dancing contest
on YouTube and you have to be strong and powerful
and it's no joke. It was crazy. What's so cool
is that we have very long casting process because for me,
as a writer, I'm very adamant that the soul matches
(09:35):
the soul of the character that I've created. Quite frankly,
the acting and who that person is, what they're going
to bring to the role in terms of essence, it's
the most important thing I left out in that. Let's
talk about Brandy Evans, for example, she used to be
a background dancer. She's danced for Snoop Dogg, She's danced
(09:55):
for Katie Perry. She just she was a dancer. She
had never you know, tripped, but you know she knows
about a muscle memory and getting routines down and so,
you know, for her, in terms of her particular trajectory,
we just threw her in all dancing classes. She followed
dancers like she studied and learned the art of it,
(10:19):
just like she learned the art of hip hop dance.
Then you had other people like Shannon Thornton, who has
never been off the pole in our lives. Let's step
back for a minute, because Brandy Evans plays Mercedes, so
she's the main character. So who is this Shenon Thornton
plays Miss Mississippi, right, yes, and so that's her thing.
(10:41):
But now she trained so hard, gotten so sore. You know,
we put them like in a boot camp, so if
they were where of the city that they were living in.
Once they got cast, we put them on a pole
dancing program and so they learned, you know, from level
one the way as far as they could go in
(11:01):
terms of cultivating their skill set, so that when they
got to set, they could do something, but of course
we have these amazing dance doubles who step in and
step up and do the way more complicated tricks. But
let me tell you something, our ladies they sell it
like you could. You cannot think that it's knocked them
(11:22):
up on the pole, just because the way that it's
edited and just how hard they work, Like we can
really overlap a lot of their the dancing between them
and the doubles when people are watching the show. So
it's been a hard road, but they're hard workers. And
so in terms of casting, you know, like I said,
it's all about are they really good actors? They feel
(11:44):
like the character that comes first, and you know, the
skill set of pole dancing, it's something that they've all
kind of trained together. Now, the first season of the
show was entirely directed by women. I'm sure that was intentional,
(12:08):
and why it's interesting. I was open men directing, I
really was, but you know, I have a very tough
interview process. So I remember during the interview process, I
would be like, so what's your idea of the female gays?
And also interesting was that the male directors that I
you know, asked this question too. They never really have
(12:30):
thought about it. They had never really done it in
their work. They felt like it was necessary. And for me,
the Female Gays is about centering the female experience looking
through a woman's eyes. And it just so you know,
every time a woman director, you know, stepped up to
the play, they had already been dealing with it within
their own work. And they also understood that, you know,
(12:51):
historically women have not been framed so particularly women like
strippers or or prostitute sex workers, and so you can
very easily just center on the sexiness of a woman
instead of who a woman is, who that character is.
And so because this show is so much it's filtered
(13:12):
through the female games, it's you know, those women, those
female directors, they just answered that question so well that
it was just obvious that those were the women who
were the right folks for the job. Yeah, and like
you said, it is a topic and how it's portrayed,
you know, is extremely important because it can go left
and they can go straight to the sex and the
(13:34):
sibiousness that tends to come along when you think about
strip clubs. For example, I remember asking a guy if
you were, you know, lensing a beautiful dance, what would
your focus on. And the guy was like, yeah, we'll
travel the camera will travel down her body and we
will see her shape and then we'll go behind her
and to see how plump she is. And it was
(13:56):
just like, nah, dog, that's what we need. So what
were the kinds of comments and that you've gotten from
fans of the show, Like when you're walking down the street,
I don't really be walking down the street too much.
I'm like I'd been holed up in the house trying
to finish these scripts. But you know, when I have
(14:18):
been able to, like it's usually like my you know,
my family like it like gatherings, you know. Unfortunately, hitter
or whatever, they're just like, oh my god, look cause
listen you did. That's like my life. That's my uncle,
that's actually me. You know, there's a lot of, like
I said, people feeling reflective that you know, sometimes people
(14:38):
are like, okay, episode two, there was too much. There's
a lot of lou y'all went there. Now. I saw
an interview when you said that like Uncle Clifford was
based on some members of your family or people that
you know. Is that true? Absolutely true? So Uncle Clifford
is a fusion of my real uncle Clifford, and my
mom and my dad. I wanted this character to feel
(14:59):
very feminine and masculine and equal measure, and so I
just pulled the best and the worst attributes from those
three people and like put it in a pot, mix
it together, and then out pop the fiction of Uncle Clifford.
And something that I like to do in my work
is I always love to name a really great character
after a family member. It's a way to you know,
(15:20):
pay homage to my living ancestors, the people who are
with me, who raised me, who you know, make me
right the way that I do, which is you know,
steeped in Southern nous and just those kind of like
quick witty things that Uncle Clifford says and the rules.
So it's the way that people talk in the show
(15:41):
is how I grew up speaking. And the people who
you know, my closest family members, they just really poured
that sound into me, and so it comes out of
my fingertips every time that I write. Now for the listeners,
in case you don't know, Uncle Clifford runs the Pink.
The Pink is the club and un Clifford is the
one who runs the club. Are there any other characters
(16:04):
that were plucked from your life. Really feel like every
single character feels like someone I've known, or there's a
sliver of me inside of all of the characters, yes,
in terms of their personalities. And I grew up with
all sisters, and so the sisterhood that happens in the
locker room and on stage and on the main floor
(16:26):
is something that I know very well, having grown up
with a lot of women and a lot of extrogens
in the house, you know, for good or or bad.
It's inspired by everything that I've experienced in my life,
in addition to all of the research that I've done
over the years. When it comes to strip club and strippers. Okay,
then let's talk a little bit about the relationship between
(16:48):
Uncle Clifford and Little Murder the rapper on there. I
was surprised by that. Why were you surprised? It just
seemed like a hook up to me. I just it's like,
he's a rapper, Like, okay, so what was that about.
So that's exactly because I wanted people to be like,
oh my god, what is this? They feel like a
(17:10):
very odd couple. And yet yeah, and all the undercover
you know, because that's real it is some folks out
here any streets and they're trying to figure out who
they are, who they're attracted to. And it was very surprising,
I think, you know, in in that first episode to
Uncle Clifford for a homeboy, Little Murder played by j
(17:31):
Alfons Nicholson to be like, you know, all just like
lovey dovey, like just looking Uncle Clifford up and down.
And so we really wanted to center a black queer
relationship in the show's still very undercover, undercover, particularly in
season one, and you know, Uncle Clifford being much older
(17:54):
than the Murder, having gone through a lifegown south where
the home of be it just extremely ranked to the
point where you know, you know, you can get killed
for being who you are, still can be killed for
being who you are, right And so really did not
want to put their relationship out on front Street, and
the Little Murder was all trying to you know, take
(18:15):
care out on dates and whatnot. And so if anyone
has seen you know, the first season, at the end,
Lt Murder actually shuts her after all that kind of
you know, rolling up on her, and that really is
a slap in the face to the character of Uncle
Clifford because it's just, oh my gosh, my my worst
fear of not being recognized and embraced by someone that
(18:39):
I could potentially love. You know, it's traumatizing. And so
we spent the first season really looking into that, that
down lowness and how it's very hurtful on an emotional level. Um,
and we're gonna pull that thread into season two, and
I hope people are ready for the roller coaster that
we're about to take them off. In regards to those
two write there, Yeah, I'm ready. Now I want to
(19:01):
talk a little bit about Mercedes and her mom because
I was sick of her. I was sick to her
mom at the end of Look girl, what church lady. Yes,
it's poor Mercedes. Is she ever gonna be without I
guess you can't really give everything away, But is she
ever be able to recoup from that? Because I'm like,
that was everything. It was all her money. But for
(19:24):
all y'all who don't know, like Mercedes, who was our handline,
our best dancer at the club, you know, she had
been trying to retire for years in order to you know,
cultivate a relationship with her daughter and to get this
gym for these major retes. You know, she was a
coach for a major scene, and so she had say
to all her scuirrell, all her money and her hypocritical bible,
(19:48):
something relot of a mama, her trees would find deals,
all of her money for the dance studio. And so
her dream wiped out by her mother is trauma like
like on on twenty five, like it just up ended
everything that she'd have been working for. And so the audience,
(20:10):
which totally made sense, hates her truths were by included,
you know, And I think it's because you know, there
are a lot of mother daughter relationships that are very
traumatic and they're toxic, right, and I think that storyline,
in particular, those two characters really allow us to see
(20:32):
our own relationships with our mother's and them and beyond
the relationship with the mother. For me, what was so
off putting was the hypocritical nature of her of the
mother with the church, the whole church thing, and you know,
the thing of being down south where there's these respectability
of politics at play, where you know, I ran into
(20:54):
that when I was even pitching the series, right in
these rooms where people were thumbing their nose I don't
know if we should do a know about strippers there,
you know, are these women who have family members who
they'll take the money that they're making, you know, shaking
it because right, they'll talk about them the next second,
because it's not seen as something that's moral. Um. And
(21:16):
I really wanted to highlight that because I just think
that there's a lot of judgment in our community, in
every community, real talk, and so I think this particular
relationship allows us to really deconstruct those feelings and those
tensions when it comes to how religion oftentimes plays a
very unfortunate role when it comes to how there's divides
(21:40):
and like moral judgment communities and our families. To lastly,
but not least, I love the relationship between Mississippi and Diamond.
Is that right? Yeah? Because I think Diamond is so sweet.
Are we gonna see that blossom more? We're gonna see something.
We're gonna see something. Okay, We're not gonna give it away.
I understand, I totally understanding. Before we wrap up, Cotri,
(22:09):
I want to focus a little bit just on your
own career, and I wanted to know if there was
anyone growing up as you were coming and navigating your
career that you emulated. I actually had a conversation with
some folks and entertainment directors, and I was saying how
important writing is, and I just feel like we need
(22:31):
more writers, We need more Black writers, because I think
there's just such an array. We have, this an abundance
of stories that we could be telling about our lives.
And it's not all just about slavery. It's all just
about you know, drugs and gangs. We live full lives
(22:52):
as a culture, just like anybody else, but the stories
aren't being told. So I just think writing is so
important because can't you gotta start from somewhere, and it
starts with the writing. To me, I love this question
because as a Black writer, I am stepping into such
a beautiful tradition. There's so many amazing Black writers that
(23:14):
have come before me, whether it's Tony Morrison, Augus Wilson.
I would say, growing up, I thought I was going
to be a novelist. I didn't think that I was
going to step into the world of drama just because
you know, I'd like to be by myself. But then
as I grew up, I love the idea of community
(23:35):
and that's what drew me to theater. So I think
one of the writers that probably has influenced me the
most is August Willson. August Wilson absolutely giants of the
American theater, you know, just everything that he's written and
everything that he stood for. I used to remember I
met him one day and I was like, I want
to be like you when I grow up. Obviously he
(23:57):
laughed at me, but eventually I got to a u
is where I wanted to be more like me when
I grew up, and it was seeing August Wilson, you know,
write his world like the people around him that I
think made me feel as though that I could do that.
And so I would say August Wilson is probably one
of my greatest influences, particularly stepping into the world of
(24:18):
dramatic right. Yeah, I think I've seen every one of
his plays. I absolutely love him. What advice would you
have for any up and coming play rights out there?
Keep your eyes on your own paper. What I mean
by that is, oftentimes we get swept up into what
the trend is and what the industry says it's the
(24:41):
thing to do, and we want what other people got,
who they got their deal or they've getting their play
done at that place. And at the end of the day,
you have to write what makes you special, what makes
you unique. It's your voice. Try not to replicate somebody else.
You're gonna be inspired influenced by another writer. But the
more you write the stories that only you can write,
(25:03):
I think the more successful you'll be. Good advice, Good advice.
Now what do you have coming up next? What can
we look forward to? So? I have this play called
The Hot Wing King that won the Pulitzer last year.
It is going up at the Alliance Theater down in
Atlanta and early and I'm directing it, so it'll be
(25:24):
my theater directorial debut. I actually got a chance to
direct the season finale of The Valley season two, okay
this past earlier this year, which I was super proud of.
So I'm definitely stepping into my little directing lane, which
I really love. Like we need more directors of color,
female directors. This season was directed by all women as well,
(25:47):
so I just really excited to become part of the
directing family when it comes to artists. Congratulations, I'm excited
for you. Thank you, You're very welcome. I look forward
to seeing that play as well. Yeah, come on down
to Atlanta. We got to get you there, and I
know I gotta be that way. Now it's time for
(26:12):
a segment. Wouldn't you like to know? I have a
couple of rapid fire questions I'd like you to answer. Okay,
what book are you currently reading? It's interesting, I'm actually
rereading The Piano Lesson by August Wilson. It's one of
my favorite plays and it's about to be on Broadway
with Senor Jack. Yes, okay, what is one thing you
(26:33):
want to get off your chest that people need to
stop being racist? It's heartbreaking the other day the young
white kid going to Buffalo and shooting up you know,
black folks, just because of all this hatred. It's just
something that obviously is They talk about COVID being a virus,
but that's a virus. Just you know, I want everybody
(26:55):
to figure out a way to not just be Oh
I'm not racist. People have to be ti racist. So
that's you know, I'm always on my soapbox about that
is a lot of people are. Yeah, that's a really
good conversation to have. And I was on Instagram and
was looking at a comment that Amanda Seals made and
my response to that was like, yeah, how do we
(27:17):
because because it is something that we can't continue to ignore, um,
the hate of white supremacy. But it's also like, how
do you fight that exactly? You know, how do you
fight that? It's something to really think about and it's
a really important conversation that I think we need to
start having. So thank you for that. And what's the
model that you live by? That's a good one. Um.
(27:39):
Uncle Clifford has a new rule this season, and it
goes like this, don't try to be everybody a cup
of tea because you have nothing left to sit on
for yourself. That's the rule, as that thing of you
know you, you really gotta protect yourself, be yourself, don't
try and just be out there. Make sure you keep
(28:02):
something special for for you at the end of the day. Yeah,
got you. That sounds like a good one. Where can
we find you on social media? You can find me
at Atuatory Hall, Instagram, and Twittle. I was able. I
was of that generation. I was actually able to get
my name. I got it early, alight, I got my name.
(28:24):
So that's how you can find me. That where y'all
can get me a inquator Hall dot com. Awesome, thank
you so much, Thank you for stopping by Positivity Gamp
and everyone go watch p Valley. New season is out now,
come on down to the pank. My first takeaway after
(28:45):
this conversation, it's really just acknowledging the importance of black writers.
We have so many stories to tell and no one
is gonna tell them better than we will. Secondly, every
show isn't for everybody, but I hope you guys will
check out pe Valley and not dismiss it because of
some preconceived idea that you've cooked up in your head.
(29:06):
It's really a good show. It's out on Stars right now,
so check it out and that's our show. You can
follow me online at Gammy. Naris also help us out
by leaving a five star review on Apple Podcasts and
by hitting the follow up button on I Heart Radio.
Stay grateful, y'all, See you at the peak Positively. Gam
(29:28):
is produced by Red Table Talk Podcast and I Heart Radio.
Executive producers are Adrian Banfield, Naris Balin, Jethro and Jada
Pinkett Smith. Our audio engineer is Calvin Bailiff, and our
associate producer is Irene Bischoff Burger. Our theme song is
produced by D Beats five
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