Focus on the Family

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, trust is the oxygen of all human relationships. So
you starve a relationship of trust, and you'll starve it
a vibrancy, and potentially you'll starve it of life.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
Lisa, I think you speak so effectively to women particularly,
but men too, because you are so vulnerable, you know,
And it's one of the things we miss in Christian
leadership is guess what, we are not perfect and it
shouldn't shock anybody, and yet we try to put that
on display.

Speaker 3 (00:34):
That somehow we've got it all together.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
And certainly you've experienced some things in the recent past
that have decimated that illusion of perfection, but you've managed
it with such grace and straightforwardness. I really want to
applaude it for that.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
So welcome, thank you, thank you, well, those are such
kind words. I appreciate it so much, And I think
to some extent, you know, people, you're so brave, you know,
to share your story, and maybe it does take courage
to share my story. But also I feel like I
was I'm not sure I really had a choice, because

(01:13):
you know, I was, I was going to walk through
the death of my marriage, and to me, it really
was a death, and so I knew that my divorce
was going to become very public, and so I had
a choice. I could either get ahead of it and
tell it with truth and grace and with the amount
of you know, emotional angst that was present with this

(01:37):
whole thing, or I could let the rumor, Ma'll tell
my story, And so I chose to be the one
to use my voice to share it.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
I think again the topics that you're hitting, this idea
of trust. We have something called Hope Restored. It's a
marriage intensive that's one of the core values that they're
teaching these wounded couples to reinitiate and re engage and
rebuild the trust in relationship. It seems to be one
of the core issues in the breakdown of marriage that
one spouse doesn't trust the other, or both of them

(02:06):
don't trust each other. Speak to what you experienced in
your first marriage, what was happening that eroded that trust?
And I think a lot of women and some men too,
are going to identify with That's what I have felt like.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Well, trust is the oxygen of all human relationships. So
you starve a relationship of trust, and you'll starve it
a vibrancy and potentially you'll starve it of life, and
it's impossible to repair trust that keeps getting broken. And
that was the pattern that I saw in my marriage,

(02:42):
and it was devastating at first. I think as a
Christian woman, I wanted to believe the best so much
that I intentionally tidied up things in my mind that
I was seeing with my eyes so that you know,
it would it wouldn't be true. I just didn't want
what I was seeing to be true. I didn't want

(03:04):
my husband to be having an affair. I didn't want
my husband to be struggling with substance abuse. I didn't
want my family to fall apart. And so I think
sometimes you can overlook red flags, and I'll own it.
I think sometimes a flag, a red flag, has to
be like burning down to the ground before I tilt

(03:26):
my head and go, huh, I guess that was a
little red, wasn't it, you know?

Speaker 2 (03:30):
And so let me let me ask you and certainly
continue with that. But it just strikes me that so
many of us could say, well, it's better to air
on the side of trusting than to air on the
side of suspicion all the time. And I would think
our personalities might play into this as well. Again whether
you're a woman or a man, but you know, speak

(03:54):
to that because it sounded like you were a trusting
spouse and then it actually ensnared you.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yes, it absolutely did. And I think there's a big
difference between wise trust and blind trust. You know, as
I studied the scriptures, because I was really struggling like,
shouldn't my trust be unconditional? And I discovered no, trust
should be very conditional, you know, based on the choices

(04:21):
of the other person, and sometimes distrust is the wisest
choice to make. You know, Look, we all make mistakes,
and that's what grace is for. And you know, I
make mistakes. You make mistakes. But there's a big difference
between a mistake where someone breaks your trust and it
was a mistake that they broke it, and they repent
for it, and you know, they say they're sorry, and

(04:42):
then they commit to not doing that again, and they
also want to walk through the repair process. There's a
big difference between that that I just described, a mistake,
and a repeated pattern of behavior that continues to go
on where there isn't lasting repentance. Sometimes you can not
temporary repentance, but I mean lasting repentance to the point

(05:05):
where the other person is willing and capable of making
the necessary changes so trust doesn't continue to get broken,
but also that they have the humility to repair the
rips in the trust that are there.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
That's good.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
Let me mention one of the things you talked about
was a brain scan that you did with doctor Amen.
I know of doctor Amen, and I know some of
the work that he does, but describe the physiological impact
of emotional trauma.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, each trauma we walk through, it's fact an impact.
So I wanted to better understand the impact because long
after that initial finding out of you know, his infidelity
and walking through very long process ten years to try
to work on this repair, this renewed my valves at

(05:55):
one point, you know all of this, I just knew
that the impact had been great, and so I wanted
to know exactly what that was. So yes, I went
and had my brain scanned. And I'll never forget it
wasn't just a scan either. By the way, you have
to do so many cognitive tests, and you know they're
measuring a lot of things and doing several scans. But

(06:16):
when he finally put up the results of my scan.
He showed on one side the results of a healthy brain,
and on the other side he showed me a picture
of my brain, and what I saw were four lit
up spots on my brain. Those are four anxiety centers
that stayed lit up whether I was at rest or
whether I was acted.

Speaker 3 (06:37):
So they were on overdrive.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
They were on overdrive. And he pointed out these four
anxiety centers and showed how they form a diamond, and
he called it the trauma diamond. And it's a direct
result of the betrayal that I walked through. And then
he started to describe for me, Okay, when this is
lit up and it's not calming down this one right here,

(06:59):
this is indicative of PTSD. This one over here, it's
indicative of catastrophic thinking. This one down here means that
you may have a hard time with people's facial expressions
or even cues because you're always worried what's their hidden
agenda here? And I remember standing there looking at that

(07:23):
and seeing how my brain has been altered. There are
physical ramifications for emotional abuse. And I'll never hesitate again
to say emotional abuse, whereas before I was always really
scared of that Phraseology because it felt like I just
didn't have proof. Now I want to say to anybody

(07:46):
listening today, you don't have to go get your brain scanned.
I've just described some pretty tailtale signs of this kind
of emotional trauma, and I just want to encourage you
that it's not hopeless and you're not helpless, you know.
And that's one of the reasons why I wrote this book.

(08:07):
I want to trust you, but I don't.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, And in fact, that's part of the discussion, is
where hope comes in, where the Lord comes.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
In, and your reliance upon him.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
And again we're going to uncover a lot of that,
but let's move to the idea of hope and trusting
another person. What happens when you give up on hope,
because I'm sure you experience that, and it's a big thing.
Hope carries you through so much that you are hopeful
that there is a light at the end of the tunnel,
even in terrible circumstances. I experience that as an orphan,

(08:40):
you know, think, Okay, tomorrow's got to be better.

Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah, And that's hope.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
It is.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
Hope is amazing. Hope is also one of the most
brutal risk that a person can take, because to dare
to hope is to look forward to something that if
you're experience has told you over and over and over
and over that it's not probably going to go the
way that you want it to go, then it starts

(09:08):
to feel scary to even hope. It used to be
I truly before this happened, I was always like, worst
case scenarios never happen, and so I used that thought
process to better manage what I was whatever I was facing.
So I remember telling myself, you know, you can look
at this and chances are it's not going to be

(09:31):
worst case scenario. It's not gonna best case scenario. It's
going to land somewhere in the middle. And I use
that to manage my hope for my future. But I
think when I went through so many repeated things in
my first marriage where worst case scenarios did absolutely happen,
and I think that can really start to mess with you.

(09:52):
So I wrote in the book about quietly quitting on hope,
and here's how it would play out for me. I
would say the right answer, like I would say, yes,
you know, I think things are going to get better.
Yes you know, I think I'm going to be okay.
But inside my heart, I didn't believe it, and I
was already trying to put things in place, like safeguards, walls,

(10:16):
hesitancies and connecting with people so that I could try
to stay a little bit better in control. I didn't
want to risk hope. I wanted to just know, like
I could say it with my mouth, that I hoped
for things, But inside my heart, I was already doing
the work to manage because I didn't really think that
I should hope for that.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
You had two similar scenarios that happened involving a rushed
goodbye and a suitcase. So explain that analogy, which I
so appreciate the way you bring in these observations of
regular life into a spiritual context.

Speaker 3 (10:48):
You do that very well.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
Well, thank you. There were many times when my ex
husband would suddenly announce he was going somewhere, and you know,
it would catch me off guard, and he would pack
his suitcase and he would go, and you know, he
would say, like, I have a business meeting that I
suddenly got called into, which felt odd and it always

(11:13):
made me uncomfortable. And so anytime I saw that suitcase
coming out, anytime that it was like a quick announcement
that he was going somewhere, and it was rolled away
from me quickly. It was so alarming and triggering, and
it usually meant that something wasn't right. So here we
are years later, fast forward, and it took me a

(11:35):
very long time after my divorce to even consider dating.
But eventually I met a wonderful man. And spoiler alert,
I am married to him today. And I met him
wonderful he is his name is jaz So. I remember
when we were dating and he would come for a visit,

(11:58):
and you know, he was a very, very trustworthy. He
had a track record of being trustworthy. But I remember
one day he just said like, hey, I've got to
go back suddenly, and we were standing in the parking
lot and I saw him like wheel his suitcase really fast,

(12:18):
you know, towards his car. Now, in my mind it
was really fast. He was doing what was normal, like goodbye,
turned around, pulled a suitcase to the car, But in
my mind, it brought back the trauma from the past,
and I could not figure out and I burst into tears,
not because he was doing anything wrong, but because that
scene was such a close replica of something that didn't

(12:44):
mean great danger from my past. So I went and
talked to a therapist friend of mine and I asked her,
how can I tell the difference between a trigger from
past trauma and present day discernment. She said, to me, investigate,
and it caught me off guard and I just thought,
what do you mean? Investigate? Then she said, ask questions

(13:06):
and how the person that you're asking the question of
how they react will tell you a lot.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
Yeah, they said, let.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
Me just plow a little bit of something you said
a moment ago, because there's probably three or four situations
in marriage that you're speaking to.

Speaker 3 (13:24):
What I mean by that is.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
The infidelity is occurring, you have a red flag, you
don't know what to do.

Speaker 3 (13:31):
You're suspicious.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
We call it instinct, intuition, all those things that we
call it, and it's valid. And then there's going to
be the other side of this where maybe out of
childhood pain, childhood trauma, other things that have occurred, abuse
of some sort, you can also develop those same kind
of triggers and it's not going to be valid And

(13:53):
speak to that side of the equation where you have
a more paranoid fear that has gripped you for whatever reason,
how do you dig in and become satisfied that everything's okay.
That's very dangerous ground to walk into, but you need
to how do you do that in a way that's

(14:14):
healing and not hurtful.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Well, that's where we have to work on ourselves and
we have to really address our story of origin. My
counselor said something to me when I was going to counseling.
He's a wonderful Christian counselor, and I was going to
counseling because I'd been through this devastation in my marriage
and I wanted to deal with how I was wounded.

(14:38):
And so I remember one day he said, okay, but
let's talk about what you need to work on. And
I was honestly kind of offended because I'm like, well,
I didn't cheat, you know, so what, like, what do
you mean? And he was like, well, Lisa, you know
you've been working harder on another person than they were
willing to work on themselves. So now let's work on you.

(15:01):
And he had me do this exercise where he drew
out this big egg shape on a poster board and
he had me divided up into little compartments and he
told me to draw a little stick figure scene of
any time that I had been wounded from my earliest memories.

(15:21):
Maybe I had been wounded because someone said something that
was deeply hurtful. Maybe it was abuse of some kind,
maybe it was abandonment of some kind, maybe it was
even sexual abuse or whatever. But just from earliest memory
of childhood, all the way up to present day, you know,
draw these little stick figure scenes. And I didn't know

(15:41):
what he was getting at. And also I'm not into drawing,
so I was like, so stick figure is right up
your yes, yes, So I did the activity, and then
he had me stand in front of him and he said,
go each little scene and just briefly tell me about it.
And I did that, and what he was listening for
was a shame script that was consistent that he could

(16:05):
hear as we went through the story. And when I
finished describing all the compartments of that trauma egg, I
figured out my shame script had been playing a part
in how I process every relationship interesting and my shame
script was this, Lisa, don't inconvenience other people. You are

(16:28):
an inconvenience, so don't ask other people for things because
they may disappoint you, and that'll be deeply hurtful or
you'll have to carry that feeling that you're just a
pain to that person and also deeply hurtful. So, Lisa,
you are an inconvenience, So don't exacerbate that bad feeling
inside of you by being an inconvenience to another person.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
And that really holds you back from investigation what you
just mentioned in a minute ago.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
I'm just thinking of.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
That script in your head and you're going, Okay, this
is me. So this is complicated. It is it easy
as it sounds.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
Right, and it would also cause me to be hesitant
in my connections. You know, it's crucial in a relationship
that in order for trust to be true, like woven
into the fabric of that relationship, you have to have
connection and you have to have safety. So what can
happen when your trust is broken? Sometimes some people maybe

(17:24):
because of their childhood trauma or other personality wirings, whatever,
but some people will prioritize connections so high, like they
are desperate to keep that relationship even though they are
experiencing broken trust or hurtful things being done. But they
prioritize connections so high that they diminish their own need
for safety. And what I mean by that is they

(17:46):
overlook things that they shouldn't overlook. They put up with
things they shouldn't put up with. Right, But for me,
I think what was starting to happen with me is
I was prioritizing safety so high that I is diminishing
connection in the relationships. And so our goal is to
bring it back in equilibrium. We want connections that are safe,

(18:11):
and that's where trust can be found in a relationship.

Speaker 2 (18:13):
I think it would be good to put the God
capstone on this. And you mentioned it a couple of times,
the inkling of distrust for the Lord, even because he
allowed you to be in the circumstance or allowed these
things to occur. If for today we're saying, how do
we rebuild that trust? Does it start with yourself? Does

(18:35):
it start with the Lord? And you're seeking the Lord
to forgive you for that lack of trust you have
in him, or challenge him with the fist up in
the air, saying, Lord, I can't get over this. Why
did you let me down as your daughter?

Speaker 1 (18:50):
Just describe that absolutely well. I think what I started
to realize is ultimate stability is never going to come
from a human into human relationship. We can enjoy human
human relationships, but we can't expect other people to never
break our trust that we can't build the foundation of.
This person's never going to disappoint me, this person's never

(19:13):
Those are unrealistic expectations. Interesting. In the Bible, the word
for a trust or trustworthiness is batah be a tah.
When it is directed toward the Lord, it's always in
a positive sense. When it's directed toward other people, it's
almost always in a negative sense. In other words, God
understands we are going to have our trusts broken. Obviously,

(19:35):
we want to choose wise relationships where we're not being
emotionally devastated. But what the Lord, I think wants us
to understand is if we want stability in our life,
we have to have that coming from Him. And where
I wrestled so deeply is I know God is good,
But like I said before, I would get confused, why

(19:57):
aren't you being good to me in this? And so
I would make all these suggestions to God. God, here's
what I think a good God should do, Like do
this and do that, and do this and do that.
The problem is that I can't possibly know what a
good God should do. Like I am so limited by

(20:18):
my own human thinking well and selfish, all selfish and
all those things right, And so what I have to
do is I have to remember God is good and
God is good at being God. God's plans may be
different than mine, but different doesn't mean that they're bad.
Different can also be good.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
Let me ask you about about trust.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
It's such an important ingredient in relationship, and yet it
ends up being one of the most fragile things. It's
just like the Lord to put this together right. This
is going to be the most important thing in your
relationship with people, trust, and it's really fragile.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
What do you do with that? How do you make
it not as friend?

Speaker 1 (21:00):
I guess well, I think trust will always be fragile
because you know, we can freely give trust, but when
trust is broken, it's really hard to repair it. The
only recipe that I know for repairing trust is time
plus believable behavior to lay down a new track record.

(21:22):
It's gonna take time, you know, I mean as much
time as it hurt. As it took for this hurt
to unfold, It's gonna take that much more exponentially for
the hurt to be tended well with. But time plus
believable behavior means when someone else breaks your trust, they
are going to need to make sure to demonstrate for

(21:45):
you that they're not going to continue to do that,
and that they're going to establish new patterns, maybe new
patterns of thought, new patterns of action. And so those
instances of believable behavior over a long period of time,
with humility and obviously great honesty, can help prove a
new track record that can then repair the trust in

(22:07):
that relationship.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
I'm sure you've had this question before, but you know,
in scripture we talk about the Lord instructing us to
forgive seventy times seven. And you know, I would think
inform Christian counselors who are reading the word and know
the way the human emotions work, how do you not
become a doormat in that situation? When does that line occur?

(22:29):
And is it reasonable to the Lord that Lord this
line is out there? What is that balance in there?
I'm thinking of that woman that is trying, and she's
trying to forgive and the husband's not changing, and maybe
he runs to her and says, I'm so sorry, this
will never happen again. The next week it's the same
thing and the same apology, and then the next week

(22:51):
the same thing and the same apology.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
What do you do with that as a Christian?

Speaker 1 (22:57):
Well, I think we have to look at the context
of who Jesus is is and how he has a heart,
a compassionate heart for the person being taken advantage of.
And so when Jesus says forgive seventy times seven, I
believe that he's not saying stay in close proximity with
that person who continues to hurt you over and over

(23:17):
and over. I believe we have to create enough emotional
or physical distance that if the other person never changes,
that we can forgive them seventy times seven without getting
destroyed in the process. So I think in order to
do this, we've got to have really clear boundaries. And
so in that situation you just mentioned, if the husband says,

(23:37):
I promise I'll never do this again, and then he
does it again next week, it's going to be impossible
to rebuild trust that keeps getting broken. So there needs
to be a protocol. There needs to be a communicated boundary.
It doesn't have to be mean, it doesn't have to
be manipulative. It doesn't even have like it shouldn't be
to punish the person who's breaking trust, but it does
need to be clear and how you can communicate a boundary.

(24:00):
You are free to continue to do whatever it is
that you want to do, and I am free to
draw appropriate boundaries because I'm responsible to keep myself sane
and self controlled, which is what the Lord has told
me is evidence of fruit of his spirit in me. Therefore,
if you continue to do this, then this is what

(24:23):
my response will be. And again, communicate it kindly, but
also make sure it's firm, and make sure that you're
consistent with holding fast to that boundary. And remember every
boundary has to have a consequence. A boundary without a
consequence is nothing but a poor suggestion.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
Yeah, no, those are good things to remember. Let me
ask you.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
You mentioned God's compassion for the victim. You didn't say
it that way, but I'll just put it in plain terms.
Here's the thing that's so difficult, that he has compassion
for the accused m and that in our humanness, that's
a hard one to grapple with it, especially if the
fence is proven in the case of your first marriage,

(25:02):
where he was having an affair or more than one
affair and drug addictions and other things. How do you
develop compassion for that broken person that can't climb out
of that sin hole seemingly and have some kind of
heart still for the brokenness that is that person that

(25:23):
you loved at one point.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
Right? Well, sometimes the line between compassion and enabling is
paper thin. So we have to really remember Jesus did
lay down his life. He instructs us to lay down
our life for those that we love. But Jesus laid
down his life to accomplish a high and holy purpose
seeking other people's highest good. Jesus did not lay down

(25:45):
his life to enable bad behavior to continue.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
Wow, that is powerful.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
That is really good and very important for us to
think through it is I think we lean the other direction.

Speaker 3 (25:56):
We just take it. As Christians, you know this is
what the Lord wanted us to do.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
Absolutely. Well, listen, I'll just do personal confession here. I
am set up to be a classic enabler because I
have so much compassion, and so the secret for me
wasn't to diminish my compassion, but the secret to me
was remembering, sometimes the most compassionate thing I can do

(26:21):
is to seek the other person's highest good, and it
is not seeking the other person's highest good to enable
destructive patterns and sinful patterns to continue without calling those
into question. Remember, we're after whise trust here, not blind trust.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
Yeah, that is so good.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
Let's hit the red flags of distrust. I think you've
noted eleven in the book. Why don't you just rattle
them off and give us a couple of the ones
that stick.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
Out for you.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
Absolutely. Let's talk about a couple of my favorite ones.
Not favorite because they're good, but favorite because they were
eye opening to me.

Speaker 3 (26:53):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
One is insincerity when someone tells you what they think
you want to hear, but they don't really mean it,
and you can tell and you can feel it. Another
one is inconsistency. You never know what version of that
person you're gonna get, Like sometimes they are so uber
sweet and other times they are angry and fly off

(27:18):
the handle, And that inconsistency can create a lot of
tension for you because you just don't know. Another one
is self centeredness. They only think about themselves. Another one
is insecurity. They lack confidence in themselves. But not just
that they lack confidence in themselves, but they expect you

(27:41):
to fill up those holes for them, and of course immorality.
They lack a moral compass, super alarming in a relationship.
In subordination, they reject reasonable authority. That should be concerning too,
So it continues to go on. The last one I'll
mention is inflated sense of self. They think you cannot

(28:04):
manage without them. So if someone says to you, you know,
I'm the best thing that ever happened to you, You'll
never find a friend like.

Speaker 3 (28:13):
Me saying that or hearing that, well.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
It's said yeah, like or you know, you'll never find
another friend like me, or you would be nothing without me,
you would never be able to do your job without me.
Those kinds of things that inflated sense of self really
big red flag.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
Lisa, let me ask you how can trust issues with
other humans affect our trust with the Lord? I think
the linkage is obvious, but again, give us handles to
that concept that when people let us down, we start
to doubt that God's even there for us, And then
what do we do with that emotion, that feeling, that

(28:51):
sense of betrayal.

Speaker 3 (28:53):
This sounds heavy, but it.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
Is well, what we don't trust will try to control.
So this happen when we've experienced a lot of broken
trust with other people, or maybe not even a lot,
but a significant broken trust scenario with another person, and
we don't understand why God allowed it. We don't understand, like,

(29:15):
especially if it's with another Christian, it's like, God, whose
side are you on here? Because they say that they're
praying about the situation, but they're interpreting the situation so
much differently when I feel like I'm the one that
got hurt, and it can really feel very, very confusing.
But I think one of the most confusing parts of
it is when it appears that the person who hurt

(29:36):
us got away with it and God just didn't address it,
and that can be really confusing. So we have to
remember that we don't always have to see the justice
of God to know that it's in play. Sin comes
as a package deal, So when someone sins, there's a
part pleasure to it or part satisfaction to it, but
then there's also it's a package deal with consequences are

(29:59):
built into sin, So when someone sins, they start to
unleash the consequences that are already built into that sin,
And so we don't have to see it to know
that it exists. And just because we don't see the
justice of God right away, we just have to be
assured in his word. He says that we will sow.

(30:21):
I mean, whatever we sow, we will reap. So we'll
reap what we sow right. And just because we can't
see God's justice in our minds, the absence of God's
justice does not equate to the absence of God's presence.
And where God is present, he is working on things
and he will not be mocked.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, it's difficult to tolerate injustice. I mean, I think
we as Christians have a high sense of justice. That's
in part why we've come to the Lord. I think
it's in us. It's part of our spiritual DNA, and
the Lord certainly values that this idea of justice. But
when it's aimed at us and we feel an injustice

(31:01):
toward us, and then we don't even feel like the
Lord is vindicating this or making it right, how do
we mature to a point where we can manage that? Okay, Lord,
we know that you've got it, that if it's not
dealt with this week, this month, this year, this lifetime,
that you've got it in the long run, that takes
a lot of maturity. I think at Paul being thrown

(31:21):
into prison for proclaiming Jesus as Lord, and you know
he's in this dungeon prison and singing songs, I would
say that's mature Christianity.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Yeah too.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
How much of our life where we're falling short in
that regard where you know, we didn't get the right
response from a friend and it hurts our feelings and
we hold that as a grudge.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
Are we just that.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
Much on the milk of the word that we're not
mature enough as Christians to kind of take that and
let the Lord work in that situation.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
Well, I think it's natural to feel that way, and
I think it's important for us to express when we
go through things that we feel are terribly unfair, it's
okay to express those to the Lord. I mean, if
you read my journal, you would see not only would
you see me express what I feel like are areas
of time and situations I've walked through that are so unfair,
but you'll also see me making so many suggestions to

(32:14):
God of how he can right this wrong, of how
he can make this better. But I want to say
this just with so much tenderness. Give it some time.
Just give it some time, because the very things that
I thought God should do to right these wrongs that
I walk through and to make them fair over a

(32:37):
long period of time years. I can go back in
my journal now and I can say, Wow, God, if
you would have done that, which in the moment would
have given me this feeling like oh yay, God, You're
making this fair, it would have had dire consequences for
me now. And I couldn't have understood that back then

(33:00):
the words I was asking God, God like do this,
like make them make this consequence come about. But actually
I can see now God used not allowing that consequence
to protect me later in the situation, because had that
consequence come about, it would have actually had ramifications for me.

(33:20):
And so that's where we just we really do need
to trust God. There.

Speaker 4 (33:25):
It's really profound, Lisa, And it takes a lot of
courage to get to that point to see that you
mentioned something earlier where that which we fear we try
to control. It seems like when trust is broken, like
I personally I trust God. My struggle is what am
I supposed to do as I'm trusting you? So how
did that look for you in terms of close relationships

(33:48):
with that violation of trust? Did you seek to control
and manage things or did you just do a trust
fall in say Okay, God's got it.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
Yeah, why don't we just go right now? Okay, Well,
I'm not typically a controlling person, but it sneaks in.
So I put this little list of awareness, like, let's
pay attention to these things. These might be some indicators
that we're in a situation that we don't trust. Therefore
we're trying to take control. One of those is needing

(34:19):
to know every detail. Now, being responsible, being a responsible
steward is great, but we can easily cross the line
from being a responsible steward to being controlling of a
situation because we don't trust, right, So, needing to know
every detail, obsessively trying to figure out how to prevent
bad things. I'm raising my hand really high here. So

(34:41):
remember when we talked about the trauma diamond in my brain.
Trying to figure out how to prevent bad things is
often playing out in my brain by catastrophic thinking, because
somehow I feel like if I can run ahead, figure
out all the bad things that could happen, figure out

(35:02):
the worst case scenario. Then somehow today I can prepare
myself so that if that happens, it's I'm not going
to be as shocked by.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
It, right, Yeah, And that's not unusual.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
It's not unusual tastrophization.

Speaker 3 (35:16):
And that's a coping skill.

Speaker 1 (35:17):
It is a coping skill. But doesn't that leave us
in a place where we are not looking forward to
the future, but we're always trying to brace for impact?

Speaker 3 (35:27):
Well, fear, Yeah, and we're.

Speaker 1 (35:29):
Just we're walking in constant fear. Another one is getting
annoyed when people deviate from your plan. Another one is
having unrealistic expectations of others because again, if we're not
trusting them, we want to control them, and so we
can have unrealistic expectations of what they should do and
what they shouldn't do because we don't want to get

(35:50):
caught off guard. And then here's a big one, thinking,
really always thinking your way is the right way, and
not giving space for other people to express that their
way may be different. But remember, different isn't always bad.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yeah, let me let me ask us what is it
we can control? Maybe that's the right question.

Speaker 1 (36:14):
Well, God calls us and tells us that one of
the fruit of the spirit is self control. So you
know ouch, I mean, I think you know. We we
cannot control what happens in the future. We can be responsible,
we can do everything today that we're supposed to do,

(36:34):
to plan well and to work effectively in all of that,
but we ultimately cannot control the outcome of the future.
We cannot control other people. We you know, we can't
control like we get on the road today. Ultimately we
can't control what the other drivers do or don't do. Right,
There's so much that we can't control. So I think

(36:54):
it's important to remember there is a part of this
that we are going to have to accept that we're
going to have to except that there are things we
cannot control, but take responsibility for what we can control.
I can't control what someone else says, but I can
control my reaction to it. I can't control if I
walk into a coffee shop and someone just bumps into

(37:16):
me and says rude things to me because the coffee
shop frepaid their latte and waylaid their whole day right,
and now they're trying to take it out on me.
But here's what I can do. I can look at
them and think Just because you lay down in a
fence doesn't mean I have to pick it up, carry
it with me and let it ruin my day.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yeah, I do want to take just a minute here
at the end and allow you to talk about your
new man, Chaz, and how long have you been married now?
And what on the positive side of things for those
that are struggling, may not see the light at the
end of the tunnel, just what the Lord has done
to rescue and save and restore. I want to see

(37:54):
the blossom in your face, is what I'm looking for
right now.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
Well, when here's to the death of my marriage, I
thought that it was me signing up to not have
a partner in life the rest of my life. That
I probably wouldn't get remarried. I couldn't fathom dating, so
it took a long time, and I'm thankful it took
a long time because I wanted to heal enough not

(38:18):
to need another person to help me walk through what
I was walking through. I wanted to heal enough where
I could be freed up and help they enough to
want the right person. Otherwise, if I would have jumped
into relationships too quickly, I probably would have been attracted
to what was normal to me, and dysfunction had become normal,
and I didn't want to jump into another dysfunctional relationship.

(38:40):
So I'm thankful I took that time. But eventually I
did meet a wonderful man. His name is Chaz, and
you want to see my face blocks Yeah, here it is.
He is such an unexpected but beautiful and wonderful gift
from and I am so so thankful. The thing that

(39:05):
I really appreciate so much about Chaz is he spent
years tending well to his soul and his emotions and
healing from the things that he went through in his life.
And that was very attractive to me. So there were
many wonderful things about him, but I think my most
favorite of all is that I get to see what

(39:27):
it feels like to be really loved and adored by
a man. And that is such a gift.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
Wow, I do see that in your face. Now let's
go here for the last question. That woman that's going well,
that's great, Lisa, that's wonderful.

Speaker 3 (39:43):
I'm so glad for you.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
But in her heart there's a bit of resentment because
that's not my story. She's somewhere along your journey, but
she hasn't made it through to that blossoming, smiley effervescence
that you're showing there. What do you say to her
about hope? What does she need to do right now?

Speaker 1 (40:04):
Well, first of all, I want to tell her I understand,
and I just want to acknowledge that is a lonely,
hard place to be. I wish so much that I
could run into your future see all the good stuff
that God has ahead of you, and come back and
tell you today and let that be the very thing
that boosts hope in your life. But that would be

(40:25):
me robbing you of the journey with God. I don't
understand why different people have to wait for different things,
different seasons, different timeframes. I don't understand why God is
allowing what you're walking through right now. I don't understand
why it's taking so long, or you know, why you're
at the place you are today. But here's what I

(40:46):
do know. God got me through that season. I went
kicking and screaming through a lot of that season, but
God did get me through that season. And there's been
enough time now where I can look back on my
lonely season and I can just report what I see now.
I see that God had a plan for me. It

(41:07):
is so very different than what I ever thought that
it would be. But the less I resist trusting Him,
the less I suffer. The more I resist trusting Him,
the more I suffer. Our job today is just to
be obedient to God. God's job is everything else.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
Wow, Lisa, that is so strong and so great and
so powerful and God honoring. So thank you again for
that vulnerability, for your willingness to share. It's one of
your attributes that shines. And I'm so grateful for you
as a friend and the journey that we've watched over
the years, just what the Lord has brought you through
to provide hope to others, that's what's so wonderful. And

(41:49):
we care about you. Folks on the family has been
around for almost fifty years. We are here to help
you through those valleys and up to the mountaintops. We
have caring Christian counselors that would count the privilege to
hear your story, to pray with you, to provide resources
for you like Lisa's great book, And in that regard,
we want to get a copy of this into your hands.

(42:10):
So if you can support the ministry with a gift
of any amount monthly or one time gift. Either way,
we'll send it to you as our way of saying
thank you. If you can't afford it, we'll get it
out to you because our heart is for your relationships.
We want to make sure you're as healthy as can
be in Christ and in the relationships around you. We
also have Hope Restored. I'm throwing a lot at you,
but Hope Restored Marriage Intensives. If your marriage is in trouble,

(42:34):
come go to Hope Restored four day intensive and it's
got an eighty percent success rate for fixing and helping
those marriages be put on a better path. It's one
of the best things going on. And focus on the family.

Speaker 3 (42:47):
So we're here for you. We're doing all we can.
We're like hamster's on a.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
Wheel, trying to make the marriage as good as it
can be for you and for everybody that connects with us.

Speaker 3 (42:56):
Just take the risk and call us.

Speaker 4 (42:59):
Yeah, you're at We're a phone call away. Eight hundred,
the letter A and the word family eight hundred, two, three, two, six, four,
five nine. So many resources we have for you. All
the links are in the program description and on behalf
of the entire team Thanks for joining us today for
focus on the family with Jim Daily. I'm John Fuller
inviting you back as we once again help you and

(43:20):
your family thrive in Christ