May 16, 2025 • 34 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:23):
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Speaker 3 (00:56):
Hey everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the
GEB America Potter Cast.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Today.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I'm your host David Groves from the studio in Tulsa, Oklahoma,
and joining us from around the globe. On the other
side and Jerusalem, Israel is Wayne Hillsden. He is the
co founder of a number of amazing ministries that are
going on there. He's been there for four decades, and
we're so glad to have you here with us.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
Sir, thank you and shalom from Jerusalem.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
So right from the start, you know what drew you
to move to Israel. I think you told me forty
two years ago this summer, that's.
Speaker 5 (01:29):
Right, August twenty third, nineteen eighty three. To be honest,
I grew up in a pastor's home, and when I
thought of travel, I thought of going to Hawaii. I
thought of going to nice beaches. I didn't really think
about going to Israel. And in fact, I hitchhiked all
over Europe and North Africa as a nineteen year old,
(01:52):
and somebody said, why don't you come to Israel. You
know you're in the neighborhood. And I did not take
them up on the offer there was. I didn't have
an interest in Israel, to be honest. So I was
doing my seminary training at the University of Toronto with
Cliffe College, Happy in Toronto. Got a job in a
local congregation in downtown Toronto. I thought I could live
(02:14):
here the rest of my life. I'm a city boy.
It's a great church. I love the senior pastor I
was serving. My wife was the music director, there and
had a ministry called one hundred Huntly Street Christian Television Ministry.
He was the music director and she was having fun too.
And then out of the blue, we stopped at a
(02:36):
church north of Toronto on a vacation and went to
church that Sunday morning, and the pastor saw us and
he said to his wife, invite Wayne and Ann over
for dinner. And you know, we weren't close friends, and
they were a bit older than us, but out of
the blue invited us for Sunday dinner after the service,
and over dinner, Jim Cantalon, this pastor said, I just
(02:58):
got back from Israel. I feel called to go there
to plant a ministry there. And we haven't told our
congregation yet that we're leaving, but probably in six months
will be gone. And without praying, without consulting his wife,
he said, when it's time to start the church in Jerusalem,
would you and An come and help us do that.
(03:19):
And we hadn't even been thinking about Israel. We'd never
been to Israel. I taught New Testament Greek at a
Bible college while I was pastoring in Toronto, never even
took a course in Hebrew. So this thing came out
of left field or right field, whatever you prefer.
Speaker 6 (03:36):
And.
Speaker 5 (03:39):
We decided we would take a spy out the land trip.
We got our relatives together and a few others that
heard we were going, and we toured the country, but
it was mostly is this the will of God? Or
is this just some crazy pipe dream? And we got
to Israel and felt, yes, this is God. And so
it took a while to get there, a year and
(04:01):
a half to get our act together. But when we moved,
we moved as if this could be our life calling,
and indeed it has been.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
So really, like Joshua of old you you made it.
You made it to the Promised Land. You went to
the Holy Land, and God had you do a lot
of founding of a number of initiatives. So talk a
little bit about king of Kings in that community and
what it's grown into.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
Yeah, So this was the congregation. We helped the plant
and it grew and developed, moved into a beautiful ymca.
They say it's the most beautiful y in the world.
In fact, the architect was the man who built or
was the architect for the Empire State Building and helped
in the thirties across from the famous King David Hotel.
(04:49):
We rented the beautiful concert hall that had one time,
prior to us renting, it was the home of the
Jerusalem Symphony and they used to do live radio broadcasts
every Sunday night. Well, their contract came to an end
and we said, hey, we'd love to take over the space,
and we did so for twenty one years. We rented
(05:10):
this beautiful classic concert venue on King David Street in
downtown Musalem, and it developed and grew, and about two
years into our ministry there we got we got some
clarity on what we should be doing the rest of
our ministry there, and it was three things. Plant churches,
(05:31):
train people for ministry, and to be a catalyst for
unity as much as we can in the Body. And
that last one we knew that that was not something
we could do within the first few years, you know,
that would be a little bit presumptuous to think we
can bring unity to the Body as a brand new ministry.
But over the years we developed I think wonderfully trusting
(05:56):
relationships with leaders across the country in the Messianic and
Arab community, and ten years ago that came to fruition
in a more official way and we formed what's called firm,
which is Fellowship of Israel Related Ministries, and we invited
what we considered some of the most effective ministries in
(06:16):
the country and said, would you join in a collaboration
not just for unity's sake, but to work together for
the Kingdom, to bring the Gospel, to make disciples, to
transform lives. And today we have seventy two Israel based
ministries that are part of our what we call a
(06:37):
local Partner network. And what we do is we try
to encourage these ministries to the degree that we can.
We try to equip provide resources, and we also introduce
these ministries to Christians around the world who have a
heart for Israel, whether it be for Jewish ministry or
(06:58):
Arab ministry. They want to get involved. But where would
we start and who's doing good work? And what's good
soil to plant seed in. And because we vet every
one of those ministries and they all apply to be
part of this network, we look at their governance, we
look at the theology, we look at their finances and
(07:19):
their track record, and they have to be endorsed by
ministries that are already part of our network. And once
they're part then we can really with enthusiasm and confidence
say to people around the world, these are the kinds
of ministries that is a good ground for you to
invest in. And so that's been very helpful I think
(07:42):
to those local ministries in Israel here, but also to churches, individuals,
business people around the world who want to get involved,
and we are a kind of doorway gateway into ministry
in Israel.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
So keeping with that talking about firm so obviously unity
is one part of about really getting people to collaborate
and pool their their abilities and skills and resources. You know,
in today's complex, you know world, with the geopolitical climate
and all that. How have you navigated that the challenges
(08:18):
of fostering unity between Christian organizations, Messianic organizations, Arab organizations
those there. I know you mentioned you had to build trust,
but how do you kind of navigate that.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
Well, we try to be we keep our promises, We
probably under promise and hopefully over deliver good so that
there is that trust I think. You know, I mentioned
earlier before we broadcast that we bought the largest movie
theater in Jerusalem. It's a six hundred seat, amazing facility.
(08:50):
The theater was really run down and was closed for
eleven years, and old movie reels lying on the floor
at old popcorn containers, and and no electricity and no seats.
But we rebuilt it into what we would really if
anybody visits, they would say, hey, this is a beautiful
(09:11):
concert hall, and we use it for concerts, for worship events,
prairie events, and then it's the home of our local congregation,
King of King's Community. But the fact that we named
it the Pavilion and not the King of Kings Worship Center,
and all the other properties we bought in this one location.
(09:32):
We bought a wedding hall, We bought the top floor,
the twenty first floor of the building turned into a
prayer center. We didn't call it the King of King's
Prayer Center. It's called right now, it's called the Jerusalem
Summit Farehouse. The wedding hall is called the Celebration Center.
We bought out two former porn shops right outside the
(09:54):
entrance to our theater, and one is called the Anchor
of Hope Counseling Center. Another one is a while it's
a local congregation office called Chem and Sason Oil of Joy.
We have a soup kitchen. It's more than soup, but
we call it the Mana Kitchen. We've got King's Kindness
Distribution Center for clothing for the poor. We have all
(10:18):
kinds of different ministries with all these different names, and
so I think that says to people, you know, we're
not trying to build our own King of Kings empire.
We're here to serve. We host twelve congregations in our
various worship halls that we've developed. So when you say
how do you build trust, well, you don't just say
(10:41):
we love you and we're here to help, but you
know kind of you demonstrate that in practical and practical ways.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, And people begin.
Speaker 5 (10:48):
To say this. I don't want to sound boastful anyway.
I mean this challenges from time to time where you
just sometimes we play the referee, you know, sometimes there's
understandings between ministries, but for the most part, there is
incredible collaboration going on.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Well, and when you're actually meeting some physical and real
world needs of people, they know that, you know, you're
not just in it to get the glory or or
just to you know, to make money or something, but
you're truly trying to help and try to be the
hands and feet of Jesus in a in a real way,
and that's that's what ministry and the gospel really is,
and that's awesome. We love hearing that. So before we
(11:31):
go any further, I do for those that are kind
of maybe in and out of the podcast, tell people
how they can connect with you and what you're doing.
Maybe they've already said, man, I want to be I
want to support what they're doing. I love what I'm hearing.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Yeah, well the best way is probably on the web.
So we have a website for King of Kings Ministries
that would be kkm dot network. So that's King of
Kings Ministries kkm dot Network, and that's not just our congregation,
King of Kings, but it's all network of fifteen congregations
(12:03):
around Israel and several abroad. And in fact, we have
a brand new congregation we've just planted a month ago
in Melbourne, Florida. We have one in Los Angeles, one
in the Boston area, one in Taiwan, we have one
in Italy, we have one in Germany. It's growing quite rapidly.
But if you go to kkm dot network, you'll see
(12:24):
all of these different congregations and ministries that are connected
with us, and then Firm is Firm Israel dot RG,
Firm dot org and there you'll see most of these
seventy two ministries that are part of our local partner network.
(12:45):
There's bios of each of those ministries. And in fact,
here's another way we've built trust, I think, is when
you read their bio at the bottom of the page,
it's got their website and they're giving page so people
can give directly those mysteries. They don't have to do
it through Firm. Love that, But there are others that
want to give through Firm because they've gotten to know
us and they don't know these other ministries and they
(13:06):
don't maybe have the ability to do their own research
and just say, hey, Firm, you guys believe in those ministries.
Hey where where things are most needed, the latest project
that's going to meet a great need. Hey, we trust
you with that.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
If you are commuting to our listeners, or maybe you're
unable to write down those websites, our GB team has
put those websites in the show notes so you can
click on that at any time. Maybe you're on your
phone or you're listening on prey dot com and if
you're in any of those areas, like you said, go
to the website. Floridians, you know, Californians, you know, wherever
(13:48):
you're at. Maybe you're in Italy and you're looking for
a place to visit a congregation. I think that would
be super amazing. That is the one thing that every
podcast I do, I learn something and about our guests,
And I had no idea you had those I just
thought you were Israel only. So that's that's amazing, you know,
Bravo to you and what the Lord is doing, that's
that's great.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
Well, a lot of these things have started very organically.
We haven't had this master strategy. In many cases, it's
been people that have been part of our congregation in Jerusalem.
They feel called to go back home from where they've
come from or to a new country, and they like
the DNA, they like our vision, and they'd like to
(14:29):
kind of do love that something similar.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
You know, so talk a little bit if you would.
I know, you've mentored a lot of young Israeli leaders.
You've been here for four decades and you've helped a
lot of like you just mentioned others leave take that
DNA and create new church plants. What's what would you
say are the unique and cultural dynamics that you feel
like are a part of this, the Messianic movement, what's
(14:54):
happening in the twenty first century, and how that's really
kind of in some ways originating of the Holy Land.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
Yeah, well, we believe in teaching the whole counsel of God,
as Paul spoke about. Of course, Paul was a rabbi
and wrote a good chunk of the New Testament and
continued to connect with his Jewish identity and people and
(15:22):
would write his letters in a way that people would
understand the Hebrew roots of their faith. And we're just
being trying to be consistent with you know, Jesus being Jewish,
God sent him in Jewish flesh into the world, So
we're just trying to basically do that. And if you
(15:45):
were to come to one of our services, there'll be
a few unique elements. One would be that we do
some of the Jewish blessings that he was here. In synagogue,
we do what's called the tor portion. So every week
in the synagogue they read a passage from the first
books of Moses and then an additional reading from often
from the prophets or from some of the other writings,
(16:08):
And so we followed the same calendar that the synagogues do,
but we bring a New Covenant, New Testament perspective on
those passages, and you would hear the way we preach.
I think it would be true to say that we
very much go back to the Old Testament to give
(16:29):
context to the New Testament. We just believe that we
are not to be unhitched from the Old Testament. But
it's all one story, one meta narrative, from Genesis to Revelation.
So we were trying to recapture what we think was
the early church in Jerusalem. You know, it says right
(16:53):
in Acts chapter two that those local believers, who you know,
many of the three thousand that God saved, stayed in Jerusalem.
Others went back to their homes. They were there for
the pilgrim feast of Pentecost or chevu which is the
Hebrew word. And what it says that they would gather
in the temple on a regular basis and in their
(17:14):
own homes. Yeah, so they didn't disconnect themselves from their
Jewish culture and religious context. Jesus is the great fulfillment
of their messianic. That's right, and I would hope the
whole church could you know, get appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah, speak to because you brought up something that we've
been discussing a lot lately and has come up on
some programs where we've talked about it seems that the
Western Church, the modern Church, has really kind of taken
in some circles, not all, but has taken a position
of well, that was the Old Covenant. We're in the
New Covenant. And I mean I've been to churches where,
(17:57):
you know, you don't hear a lot talked about the
Old Testament, and you know, children's church doesn't spend a
lot of time telling those stories that we grew up
hearing in Sunday school. Speak to the importance of what
you just said about we need to have the context
of the entirety of the Bible.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Right.
Speaker 5 (18:16):
Well, just to give a biblical basis for this, Jesus
constantly was quoting from Old tests from the Old Testament
and alluding to lots of speeches in the Old Testament.
Of course, the Gospel writers, Paul Peter, you know, the
Disciples would consistently base their New Testament teaching on the
(18:40):
Old Testament, so I think we should be doing the
same thing. Maybe I could just interject something that I
think is related to your question. Some people will call
this replacement theology or super sessionism, and what that means
is it's a teaching that the Jewish people, yes they
were called the chosen people, Yes they were called to
(19:03):
be a light to the nations, but when Jesus came,
they for the most part rejected him. And therefore God
has rejected them as his chosen people. And so he
has turned his face away from them and toward a
new Israel, which would be primarily a gentile church with
(19:26):
some Jews mixed in, but clearly, and I would say,
if anybody has doubts about whether or not that's heretical
to read Romans eleven over and over again, and Paul
makes it very clear. The very first thing he says
in that chapter is has God rejected or cast away
his people? And he said, absolutely not. And he makes
(19:49):
the case throughout the chapter that God has not finished
with Israel, and in fact, he says even now there's
a remnant being saved, and then goes on to say
that verse eleven, this is quite amazing. He says salvation
has come to the nations to make Israel envious. So
(20:10):
what Paul is clearly stating is that God still wants
to save his people Israel, and he's using gentile Christians
to cause them to want what we have, which is
Jesus and the life transformation that he enables us to have.
And then says, you know, if the spiritual blessings they
(20:37):
received happen through their fall, what will it be like
when they get into their fullness of understanding of who
Jesus is? And that's verse twelve, And then verse fifteen
it says, if their rejection results in the reconciliation of
the world, the gentile world, what will their acceptance be
(21:00):
life from the dead. And then in verse twenty six
and twenty seven, it says, and all Israel shall be saved.
The Deliverer will come from Zion. He will take away
on godliness from Jacob. For this is my covenant with them,
when I take away their sins. So clearly Paul understands
that God still has a plan for the ancient people
(21:20):
of Israel. He has not cast them away forever. There's
going to be a great return to the Father, and
they're going to have a great revelation of who Jesus is.
And in fact, it says Zechariah chapter eight, that people
from every nation will come up to Jerusalem and say
(21:43):
to a Jew in fact, that the word is jew
We hear that God is with you now, the word
you there is in the plural you all. And so
because this is going to be these redeemed Jewish people,
and I wouldn't be surprised that many of them are
Rabbis and know the Word of God, and now have
come into the fullness.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Of the Word.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
Knowing who you show what Jesus is, they're going to
be some of the greatest evangelists on the planet. I
haven't got all figured out the chronology of that and
when that's going to happen, But to me, the theology
is clearly presented in many chapters. I'll give you one more.
Ezekiel chapter thirty six. God says I cast you out
(22:28):
of the land. He went into exile because of your
sin and your idolatry. But I'm going to bring you
back to your own land. And he says, I don't
do this for your sake, oh house of Israel, I
do it for my holy Name's sake, my reputation's sake. Now,
why would his reputation be on the line if Israel
(22:49):
is scattered from their homeland. Well, it says to the world,
God doesn't care about Israel anymore. Right, he doesn't keep
covenant with the people that he said, I love you
forever and I have made an eternal covenant with you.
That would bring into question God's credibility or his Maybe
(23:09):
he's maybe he's too weak to keep the people in
the land, and their enemies are stronger, and his enemies
are stronger than him. He cares about his reputation, so
he says, I'm going to bring you out from the
nations back to your own land. And it's not just
about land, although you can't ignore the fact he says,
your land. To the people who say, he says, then
(23:31):
when you're in the land, something's going to happen. What
is it, he says, I will sprinkle clean water on you,
and you will be clean. I will take out your
heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh.
I will put my spirit within you and move you
to follow my commandments. I mean, this is the story. So, yes,
(23:51):
Israel has not perfect. Yes, the Jewish people wandered and
God sent them into exile. But that's not the end
of the story. Deeming God, he's the one who seeks
and saves the lost. He doesn't save good people. He
didn't save me because I'm so good. He's a redeemer.
(24:14):
And Israel's story is not over. And the crazy thing
about it is I sometimes use this analogy of a
soccer game or a football game. You know, Israel's been
on the bench for a long time, but God has
this special role. Yeah, you could even say maybe a
(24:34):
hero of the story takes Israel off the bench, gets
onto the field, and there's this great end time victory.
God will use them as a strategic player on his
team to bring about the redemption of the whole world.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
You know, God's ways are always That's kind of his style.
You know. I think that, you know, we are always.
We lose sight sometimes of the fact that Jesus is
revealed throughout the entire Bible, and you know, God's promises
don't have an expiration date. And and I love what
(25:11):
I love what you said about the bench analogy. I
think you're I think you're spot on, and I think
that as Christians you know, there's a reason why we
we always hear that mantra to pray for the peace
of Jerusalem and to pray for Israel, because this is
this is the origination point that God started the whole
process of then throughout the context of the Old end
(25:33):
of the New Testament, of revealing his plan for rescue
and redemption. And it's just, you know, I think it's
important that we as Christians support and pray and really
remember the importance that Israel will play. And I love
how you so well explained that so eloquently. Thank you
for doing that. And I hope that people that are
listening maybe that you had some questions and that filled
(25:55):
some filled some answers that you had, or some questions
you had. Those are that those answers, and I hope
that you'll let us know. Shoot us a note there
under the testimony section, or leave a comment there if
you're watching on YouTube or one of the other platforms.
Before we end today, I wanted to ask you what
are some current or planned initiatives. What's some exciting things
(26:16):
that we can be praying for or people may want
to get behind you guys and supporting.
Speaker 5 (26:21):
Yeah, well, I said the three main things we are
doing is planting congregations, training people for ministry, and being
a catalyst for unity. In all three of those areas,
I think there's some exciting things happening. So we're in
the midst of planting new congregations. We've got one in
a city called mod En. It's a city of about
one hundred and twenty five thousand people and it's master
(26:43):
planned to be two hundred and fifty thousand people. We've
got two congregations there have been planted, one Hebrew local congregation,
ones in Russian because we have a lot of Russian immigrants.
And we've got one in Romley, which isn't far from
the international air that's just been planted, and another one
in the works. So get evolved in planting new congregations.
(27:07):
We believe that a local congregation is the most effective
way of reaching a nation. It's kind of a test
tube where people can see that it actually works. It's
not just theory, but there's disciples who love one another
and lives are being transformed and you can see it
with your own eyes through a local.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
And your ministries have been involved with humanitarian efforts as well.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
Oh yeah, yeah, And I mentioned earlier man A Kitchen,
which is a soup kitchen that we have here in Jerusalem.
We serve it's around three hundred and fifty hot meals
a week to those in need off the streets of Jerusalem,
and we have a clothing distribution center as well, so
it can help in those areas. And then because of
(27:52):
the war that's been going on, we've been helping in
very practical ways, getting people back in their homes, back
in schools. We've been building classrooms, bomb shelters, getting practical
aid to these communities on the edge of Lebanon and
on the edge of Gaza. And we want to do
more in Gaza, but it's a challenge to get stuff
(28:13):
in there that won't be stolen and used by the
wrong people, right, But we do hope to get more
involved in there in there at one point hopefully those
doors will open and through uh. You know, the other
thing is trained leaders. So we know we have a
we're relaunching a school of Media. King's School. Media starts
right another month. We ran it for seven years and
(28:36):
most of our graduates are in media full time. Love
that now we've got the right leaders back in place,
so we're going to relaunch.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
I love hearing that, you know, I don't know imagine
maybe in the media world. I like hearing the people
are learning and being trained. It's awesome.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:53):
And we also have a school we call i AM,
which stands for Israel Academy Ministry. I like a full
time Bible college. This is a training in practical ministry.
There's good Bible college that we co planted many years
ago called Israel College of the Bible. They do the
whole gamut all to the doctoral level. But this particular school,
(29:17):
which we run in intensive classes, is more on the
practical training of how to plan a congregation and how
to build a worship team, how to do sound and lighting.
I mean, it's real practical stuff.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
I love that now. Is that is i AM something
that like somebody that you know they're working a full
time job that they feel called to ministry part tect Yeah, awesome,
that's so great. Well, I'd love that you joined us
all the way from Jerusalem. I think it's a real
treat to hear what you guys are doing there. And
I wanted to ask you for we go if you
would just say a prayer for those that are. We
don't have any idea half the time who listens and
(29:51):
watches from around the world, but if you could say
a prayer for those that are listening to the podcast
or watching, and as we kind of close out the program.
Speaker 5 (30:00):
Mm hmm okay, thank you, David. Father, we come to you,
and we know that your eyes scan the whole globe,
and you know each and every one of us intimately,
every cell of our body, every thought that goes through
our mind, every word that we speak, Lord, and you
know the needs of each and every one of us.
So Lord, those who hear or see this podcast, Lord,
(30:23):
we ask that they would reach out in a fresh
way to knock on your door, knowing that you will answer.
And we pray God, whether it's healing, a financial breakthrough,
for new faith and confidence in you, trust, new trust level,
(30:44):
whatever the need is, God, you know what it is.
And Lord, with those who have heard us share today
about what you're doing in Israel, Lord, may you open
up hearts to what God is doing and how they
could partner in some way even to come and see
it with their own eyes, not to see the ancient stones,
(31:04):
but the living stones, and see your body and see
the work of your spirit in this land in a
fresh way. God, we just pray for a mighty move
of your spirit around this globe, and I asked that
it started Jerusalem. I'm selfish in that regard. Lord, but
we know your heart is for the redemption of the
city in this nation and for the peace of Jerusalem.
(31:28):
So God bring your peace. May this war come to
an end. May you rule and reign from the city
of the Great King. And we give you all the
glory and the honor of Say for David and this
ministry that you've established, this media outreach, God may even
expand and reach even further recesses of this world. We
(31:51):
pray in Jesus name, and you see His name. We
pray Amen.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Well, we send a blessing, speak blessing over you and
your ministry from here in tuls Oklahoma, affectionately called for
a number of years Tulserusalem, as you probably have heard,
and we hope that you will come back on maybe
later this year and give us some updates. We'd love
to connect and stay in touch. And for those of
(32:17):
you that are listening and viewing, remember in the show
notes we have links to the information there of how
you can find out more about Firm and King of
Kings in our community in Israel and around the world.
They're congregations that are being planted and if you have
interest in supporting or being involved, you can find those
details there. Again, thank you Wayne for joining us, and
for those of you that are regulars, thank you. We
(32:39):
appreciate you so many of you. Every single Tuesday we
drop a new episode and we love having you as
our listeners and our followers. From here at GB America,
I'm David Grove saying God's blessings to you and remember
to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
Bye for now.
Speaker 6 (33:00):
Thank you for joining us for the GEB America podcast.
Be sure to follow us or subscribe on the podcast
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The views and opinions expressed on this program are solely
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Speaker 3 (00:56):
Hey everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the
GEB America Potter Cast.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Today.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I'm your host David Groves from the studio in Tulsa, Oklahoma,
and joining us from around the globe. On the other
side and Jerusalem, Israel is Wayne Hillsden. He is the
co founder of a number of amazing ministries that are
going on there. He's been there for four decades, and
we're so glad to have you here with us.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
Sir, thank you and shalom from Jerusalem.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
So right from the start, you know what drew you
to move to Israel. I think you told me forty
two years ago this summer, that's.
Speaker 5 (01:29):
Right, August twenty third, nineteen eighty three. To be honest,
I grew up in a pastor's home, and when I
thought of travel, I thought of going to Hawaii. I
thought of going to nice beaches. I didn't really think
about going to Israel. And in fact, I hitchhiked all
over Europe and North Africa as a nineteen year old,
(01:52):
and somebody said, why don't you come to Israel. You
know you're in the neighborhood. And I did not take
them up on the offer there was. I didn't have
an interest in Israel, to be honest. So I was
doing my seminary training at the University of Toronto with
Cliffe College, Happy in Toronto. Got a job in a
local congregation in downtown Toronto. I thought I could live
(02:14):
here the rest of my life. I'm a city boy.
It's a great church. I love the senior pastor I
was serving. My wife was the music director, there and
had a ministry called one hundred Huntly Street Christian Television Ministry.
He was the music director and she was having fun too.
And then out of the blue, we stopped at a
(02:36):
church north of Toronto on a vacation and went to
church that Sunday morning, and the pastor saw us and
he said to his wife, invite Wayne and Ann over
for dinner. And you know, we weren't close friends, and
they were a bit older than us, but out of
the blue invited us for Sunday dinner after the service,
and over dinner, Jim Cantalon, this pastor said, I just
(02:58):
got back from Israel. I feel called to go there
to plant a ministry there. And we haven't told our
congregation yet that we're leaving, but probably in six months
will be gone. And without praying, without consulting his wife,
he said, when it's time to start the church in Jerusalem,
would you and An come and help us do that.
(03:19):
And we hadn't even been thinking about Israel. We'd never
been to Israel. I taught New Testament Greek at a
Bible college while I was pastoring in Toronto, never even
took a course in Hebrew. So this thing came out
of left field or right field, whatever you prefer.
Speaker 6 (03:36):
And.
Speaker 5 (03:39):
We decided we would take a spy out the land trip.
We got our relatives together and a few others that
heard we were going, and we toured the country, but
it was mostly is this the will of God? Or
is this just some crazy pipe dream? And we got
to Israel and felt, yes, this is God. And so
it took a while to get there, a year and
(04:01):
a half to get our act together. But when we moved,
we moved as if this could be our life calling,
and indeed it has been.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
So really, like Joshua of old you you made it.
You made it to the Promised Land. You went to
the Holy Land, and God had you do a lot
of founding of a number of initiatives. So talk a
little bit about king of Kings in that community and
what it's grown into.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
Yeah, So this was the congregation. We helped the plant
and it grew and developed, moved into a beautiful ymca.
They say it's the most beautiful y in the world.
In fact, the architect was the man who built or
was the architect for the Empire State Building and helped
in the thirties across from the famous King David Hotel.
(04:49):
We rented the beautiful concert hall that had one time,
prior to us renting, it was the home of the
Jerusalem Symphony and they used to do live radio broadcasts
every Sunday night. Well, their contract came to an end
and we said, hey, we'd love to take over the space,
and we did so for twenty one years. We rented
(05:10):
this beautiful classic concert venue on King David Street in
downtown Musalem, and it developed and grew, and about two
years into our ministry there we got we got some
clarity on what we should be doing the rest of
our ministry there, and it was three things. Plant churches,
(05:31):
train people for ministry, and to be a catalyst for
unity as much as we can in the Body. And
that last one we knew that that was not something
we could do within the first few years, you know,
that would be a little bit presumptuous to think we
can bring unity to the Body as a brand new ministry.
But over the years we developed I think wonderfully trusting
(05:56):
relationships with leaders across the country in the Messianic and
Arab community, and ten years ago that came to fruition
in a more official way and we formed what's called firm,
which is Fellowship of Israel Related Ministries, and we invited
what we considered some of the most effective ministries in
(06:16):
the country and said, would you join in a collaboration
not just for unity's sake, but to work together for
the Kingdom, to bring the Gospel, to make disciples, to
transform lives. And today we have seventy two Israel based
ministries that are part of our what we call a
(06:37):
local Partner network. And what we do is we try
to encourage these ministries to the degree that we can.
We try to equip provide resources, and we also introduce
these ministries to Christians around the world who have a
heart for Israel, whether it be for Jewish ministry or
(06:58):
Arab ministry. They want to get involved. But where would
we start and who's doing good work? And what's good
soil to plant seed in. And because we vet every
one of those ministries and they all apply to be
part of this network, we look at their governance, we
look at the theology, we look at their finances and
(07:19):
their track record, and they have to be endorsed by
ministries that are already part of our network. And once
they're part then we can really with enthusiasm and confidence
say to people around the world, these are the kinds
of ministries that is a good ground for you to
invest in. And so that's been very helpful I think
(07:42):
to those local ministries in Israel here, but also to churches, individuals,
business people around the world who want to get involved,
and we are a kind of doorway gateway into ministry
in Israel.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
So keeping with that talking about firm so obviously unity
is one part of about really getting people to collaborate
and pool their their abilities and skills and resources. You know,
in today's complex, you know world, with the geopolitical climate
and all that. How have you navigated that the challenges
(08:18):
of fostering unity between Christian organizations, Messianic organizations, Arab organizations
those there. I know you mentioned you had to build trust,
but how do you kind of navigate that.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
Well, we try to be we keep our promises, We
probably under promise and hopefully over deliver good so that
there is that trust I think. You know, I mentioned
earlier before we broadcast that we bought the largest movie
theater in Jerusalem. It's a six hundred seat, amazing facility.
(08:50):
The theater was really run down and was closed for
eleven years, and old movie reels lying on the floor
at old popcorn containers, and and no electricity and no seats.
But we rebuilt it into what we would really if
anybody visits, they would say, hey, this is a beautiful
(09:11):
concert hall, and we use it for concerts, for worship events,
prairie events, and then it's the home of our local congregation,
King of King's Community. But the fact that we named
it the Pavilion and not the King of Kings Worship Center,
and all the other properties we bought in this one location.
(09:32):
We bought a wedding hall, We bought the top floor,
the twenty first floor of the building turned into a
prayer center. We didn't call it the King of King's
Prayer Center. It's called right now, it's called the Jerusalem
Summit Farehouse. The wedding hall is called the Celebration Center.
We bought out two former porn shops right outside the
(09:54):
entrance to our theater, and one is called the Anchor
of Hope Counseling Center. Another one is a while it's
a local congregation office called Chem and Sason Oil of Joy.
We have a soup kitchen. It's more than soup, but
we call it the Mana Kitchen. We've got King's Kindness
Distribution Center for clothing for the poor. We have all
(10:18):
kinds of different ministries with all these different names, and
so I think that says to people, you know, we're
not trying to build our own King of Kings empire.
We're here to serve. We host twelve congregations in our
various worship halls that we've developed. So when you say
how do you build trust, well, you don't just say
(10:41):
we love you and we're here to help, but you
know kind of you demonstrate that in practical and practical ways.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, And people begin.
Speaker 5 (10:48):
To say this. I don't want to sound boastful anyway.
I mean this challenges from time to time where you
just sometimes we play the referee, you know, sometimes there's
understandings between ministries, but for the most part, there is
incredible collaboration going on.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Well, and when you're actually meeting some physical and real
world needs of people, they know that, you know, you're
not just in it to get the glory or or
just to you know, to make money or something, but
you're truly trying to help and try to be the
hands and feet of Jesus in a in a real way,
and that's that's what ministry and the gospel really is,
and that's awesome. We love hearing that. So before we
(11:31):
go any further, I do for those that are kind
of maybe in and out of the podcast, tell people
how they can connect with you and what you're doing.
Maybe they've already said, man, I want to be I
want to support what they're doing. I love what I'm hearing.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Yeah, well the best way is probably on the web.
So we have a website for King of Kings Ministries
that would be kkm dot network. So that's King of
Kings Ministries kkm dot Network, and that's not just our congregation,
King of Kings, but it's all network of fifteen congregations
(12:03):
around Israel and several abroad. And in fact, we have
a brand new congregation we've just planted a month ago
in Melbourne, Florida. We have one in Los Angeles, one
in the Boston area, one in Taiwan, we have one
in Italy, we have one in Germany. It's growing quite rapidly.
But if you go to kkm dot network, you'll see
(12:24):
all of these different congregations and ministries that are connected
with us, and then Firm is Firm Israel dot RG,
Firm dot org and there you'll see most of these
seventy two ministries that are part of our local partner network.
(12:45):
There's bios of each of those ministries. And in fact,
here's another way we've built trust, I think, is when
you read their bio at the bottom of the page,
it's got their website and they're giving page so people
can give directly those mysteries. They don't have to do
it through Firm. Love that, But there are others that
want to give through Firm because they've gotten to know
us and they don't know these other ministries and they
(13:06):
don't maybe have the ability to do their own research
and just say, hey, Firm, you guys believe in those ministries.
Hey where where things are most needed, the latest project
that's going to meet a great need. Hey, we trust
you with that.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
If you are commuting to our listeners, or maybe you're
unable to write down those websites, our GB team has
put those websites in the show notes so you can
click on that at any time. Maybe you're on your
phone or you're listening on prey dot com and if
you're in any of those areas, like you said, go
to the website. Floridians, you know, Californians, you know, wherever
(13:48):
you're at. Maybe you're in Italy and you're looking for
a place to visit a congregation. I think that would
be super amazing. That is the one thing that every
podcast I do, I learn something and about our guests,
And I had no idea you had those I just
thought you were Israel only. So that's that's amazing, you know,
Bravo to you and what the Lord is doing, that's
that's great.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
Well, a lot of these things have started very organically.
We haven't had this master strategy. In many cases, it's
been people that have been part of our congregation in Jerusalem.
They feel called to go back home from where they've
come from or to a new country, and they like
the DNA, they like our vision, and they'd like to
(14:29):
kind of do love that something similar.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
You know, so talk a little bit if you would.
I know, you've mentored a lot of young Israeli leaders.
You've been here for four decades and you've helped a
lot of like you just mentioned others leave take that
DNA and create new church plants. What's what would you
say are the unique and cultural dynamics that you feel
like are a part of this, the Messianic movement, what's
(14:54):
happening in the twenty first century, and how that's really
kind of in some ways originating of the Holy Land.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
Yeah, well, we believe in teaching the whole counsel of God,
as Paul spoke about. Of course, Paul was a rabbi
and wrote a good chunk of the New Testament and
continued to connect with his Jewish identity and people and
(15:22):
would write his letters in a way that people would
understand the Hebrew roots of their faith. And we're just
being trying to be consistent with you know, Jesus being Jewish,
God sent him in Jewish flesh into the world, So
we're just trying to basically do that. And if you
(15:45):
were to come to one of our services, there'll be
a few unique elements. One would be that we do
some of the Jewish blessings that he was here. In synagogue,
we do what's called the tor portion. So every week
in the synagogue they read a passage from the first
books of Moses and then an additional reading from often
from the prophets or from some of the other writings,
(16:08):
And so we followed the same calendar that the synagogues do,
but we bring a New Covenant, New Testament perspective on
those passages, and you would hear the way we preach.
I think it would be true to say that we
very much go back to the Old Testament to give
(16:29):
context to the New Testament. We just believe that we
are not to be unhitched from the Old Testament. But
it's all one story, one meta narrative, from Genesis to Revelation.
So we were trying to recapture what we think was
the early church in Jerusalem. You know, it says right
(16:53):
in Acts chapter two that those local believers, who you know,
many of the three thousand that God saved, stayed in Jerusalem.
Others went back to their homes. They were there for
the pilgrim feast of Pentecost or chevu which is the
Hebrew word. And what it says that they would gather
in the temple on a regular basis and in their
(17:14):
own homes. Yeah, so they didn't disconnect themselves from their
Jewish culture and religious context. Jesus is the great fulfillment
of their messianic. That's right, and I would hope the
whole church could you know, get appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah, speak to because you brought up something that we've
been discussing a lot lately and has come up on
some programs where we've talked about it seems that the
Western Church, the modern Church, has really kind of taken
in some circles, not all, but has taken a position
of well, that was the Old Covenant. We're in the
New Covenant. And I mean I've been to churches where,
(17:57):
you know, you don't hear a lot talked about the
Old Testament, and you know, children's church doesn't spend a
lot of time telling those stories that we grew up
hearing in Sunday school. Speak to the importance of what
you just said about we need to have the context
of the entirety of the Bible.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Right.
Speaker 5 (18:16):
Well, just to give a biblical basis for this, Jesus
constantly was quoting from Old tests from the Old Testament
and alluding to lots of speeches in the Old Testament.
Of course, the Gospel writers, Paul Peter, you know, the
Disciples would consistently base their New Testament teaching on the
(18:40):
Old Testament, so I think we should be doing the
same thing. Maybe I could just interject something that I
think is related to your question. Some people will call
this replacement theology or super sessionism, and what that means
is it's a teaching that the Jewish people, yes they
were called the chosen people, Yes they were called to
(19:03):
be a light to the nations, but when Jesus came,
they for the most part rejected him. And therefore God
has rejected them as his chosen people. And so he
has turned his face away from them and toward a
new Israel, which would be primarily a gentile church with
(19:26):
some Jews mixed in, but clearly, and I would say,
if anybody has doubts about whether or not that's heretical
to read Romans eleven over and over again, and Paul
makes it very clear. The very first thing he says
in that chapter is has God rejected or cast away
his people? And he said, absolutely not. And he makes
(19:49):
the case throughout the chapter that God has not finished
with Israel, and in fact, he says even now there's
a remnant being saved, and then goes on to say
that verse eleven, this is quite amazing. He says salvation
has come to the nations to make Israel envious. So
(20:10):
what Paul is clearly stating is that God still wants
to save his people Israel, and he's using gentile Christians
to cause them to want what we have, which is
Jesus and the life transformation that he enables us to have.
And then says, you know, if the spiritual blessings they
(20:37):
received happen through their fall, what will it be like
when they get into their fullness of understanding of who
Jesus is? And that's verse twelve, And then verse fifteen
it says, if their rejection results in the reconciliation of
the world, the gentile world, what will their acceptance be
(21:00):
life from the dead. And then in verse twenty six
and twenty seven, it says, and all Israel shall be saved.
The Deliverer will come from Zion. He will take away
on godliness from Jacob. For this is my covenant with them,
when I take away their sins. So clearly Paul understands
that God still has a plan for the ancient people
(21:20):
of Israel. He has not cast them away forever. There's
going to be a great return to the Father, and
they're going to have a great revelation of who Jesus is.
And in fact, it says Zechariah chapter eight, that people
from every nation will come up to Jerusalem and say
(21:43):
to a Jew in fact, that the word is jew
We hear that God is with you now, the word
you there is in the plural you all. And so
because this is going to be these redeemed Jewish people,
and I wouldn't be surprised that many of them are
Rabbis and know the Word of God, and now have
come into the fullness.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Of the Word.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
Knowing who you show what Jesus is, they're going to
be some of the greatest evangelists on the planet. I
haven't got all figured out the chronology of that and
when that's going to happen, But to me, the theology
is clearly presented in many chapters. I'll give you one more.
Ezekiel chapter thirty six. God says I cast you out
(22:28):
of the land. He went into exile because of your
sin and your idolatry. But I'm going to bring you
back to your own land. And he says, I don't
do this for your sake, oh house of Israel, I
do it for my holy Name's sake, my reputation's sake. Now,
why would his reputation be on the line if Israel
(22:49):
is scattered from their homeland. Well, it says to the world,
God doesn't care about Israel anymore. Right, he doesn't keep
covenant with the people that he said, I love you
forever and I have made an eternal covenant with you.
That would bring into question God's credibility or his Maybe
(23:09):
he's maybe he's too weak to keep the people in
the land, and their enemies are stronger, and his enemies
are stronger than him. He cares about his reputation, so
he says, I'm going to bring you out from the
nations back to your own land. And it's not just
about land, although you can't ignore the fact he says,
your land. To the people who say, he says, then
(23:31):
when you're in the land, something's going to happen. What
is it, he says, I will sprinkle clean water on you,
and you will be clean. I will take out your
heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh.
I will put my spirit within you and move you
to follow my commandments. I mean, this is the story. So, yes,
(23:51):
Israel has not perfect. Yes, the Jewish people wandered and
God sent them into exile. But that's not the end
of the story. Deeming God, he's the one who seeks
and saves the lost. He doesn't save good people. He
didn't save me because I'm so good. He's a redeemer.
(24:14):
And Israel's story is not over. And the crazy thing
about it is I sometimes use this analogy of a
soccer game or a football game. You know, Israel's been
on the bench for a long time, but God has
this special role. Yeah, you could even say maybe a
(24:34):
hero of the story takes Israel off the bench, gets
onto the field, and there's this great end time victory.
God will use them as a strategic player on his
team to bring about the redemption of the whole world.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
You know, God's ways are always That's kind of his style.
You know. I think that, you know, we are always.
We lose sight sometimes of the fact that Jesus is
revealed throughout the entire Bible, and you know, God's promises
don't have an expiration date. And and I love what
(25:11):
I love what you said about the bench analogy. I
think you're I think you're spot on, and I think
that as Christians you know, there's a reason why we
we always hear that mantra to pray for the peace
of Jerusalem and to pray for Israel, because this is
this is the origination point that God started the whole
process of then throughout the context of the Old end
(25:33):
of the New Testament, of revealing his plan for rescue
and redemption. And it's just, you know, I think it's
important that we as Christians support and pray and really
remember the importance that Israel will play. And I love
how you so well explained that so eloquently. Thank you
for doing that. And I hope that people that are
listening maybe that you had some questions and that filled
(25:55):
some filled some answers that you had, or some questions
you had. Those are that those answers, and I hope
that you'll let us know. Shoot us a note there
under the testimony section, or leave a comment there if
you're watching on YouTube or one of the other platforms.
Before we end today, I wanted to ask you what
are some current or planned initiatives. What's some exciting things
(26:16):
that we can be praying for or people may want
to get behind you guys and supporting.
Speaker 5 (26:21):
Yeah, well, I said the three main things we are
doing is planting congregations, training people for ministry, and being
a catalyst for unity. In all three of those areas,
I think there's some exciting things happening. So we're in
the midst of planting new congregations. We've got one in
a city called mod En. It's a city of about
one hundred and twenty five thousand people and it's master
(26:43):
planned to be two hundred and fifty thousand people. We've
got two congregations there have been planted, one Hebrew local congregation,
ones in Russian because we have a lot of Russian immigrants.
And we've got one in Romley, which isn't far from
the international air that's just been planted, and another one
in the works. So get evolved in planting new congregations.
(27:07):
We believe that a local congregation is the most effective
way of reaching a nation. It's kind of a test
tube where people can see that it actually works. It's
not just theory, but there's disciples who love one another
and lives are being transformed and you can see it
with your own eyes through a local.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
And your ministries have been involved with humanitarian efforts as well.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
Oh yeah, yeah, And I mentioned earlier man A Kitchen,
which is a soup kitchen that we have here in Jerusalem.
We serve it's around three hundred and fifty hot meals
a week to those in need off the streets of Jerusalem,
and we have a clothing distribution center as well, so
it can help in those areas. And then because of
(27:52):
the war that's been going on, we've been helping in
very practical ways, getting people back in their homes, back
in schools. We've been building classrooms, bomb shelters, getting practical
aid to these communities on the edge of Lebanon and
on the edge of Gaza. And we want to do
more in Gaza, but it's a challenge to get stuff
(28:13):
in there that won't be stolen and used by the
wrong people, right, But we do hope to get more
involved in there in there at one point hopefully those
doors will open and through uh. You know, the other
thing is trained leaders. So we know we have a
we're relaunching a school of Media. King's School. Media starts
right another month. We ran it for seven years and
(28:36):
most of our graduates are in media full time. Love
that now we've got the right leaders back in place,
so we're going to relaunch.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
I love hearing that, you know, I don't know imagine
maybe in the media world. I like hearing the people
are learning and being trained. It's awesome.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:53):
And we also have a school we call i AM,
which stands for Israel Academy Ministry. I like a full
time Bible college. This is a training in practical ministry.
There's good Bible college that we co planted many years
ago called Israel College of the Bible. They do the
whole gamut all to the doctoral level. But this particular school,
(29:17):
which we run in intensive classes, is more on the
practical training of how to plan a congregation and how
to build a worship team, how to do sound and lighting.
I mean, it's real practical stuff.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
I love that now. Is that is i AM something
that like somebody that you know they're working a full
time job that they feel called to ministry part tect Yeah, awesome,
that's so great. Well, I'd love that you joined us
all the way from Jerusalem. I think it's a real
treat to hear what you guys are doing there. And
I wanted to ask you for we go if you
would just say a prayer for those that are. We
don't have any idea half the time who listens and
(29:51):
watches from around the world, but if you could say
a prayer for those that are listening to the podcast
or watching, and as we kind of close out the program.
Speaker 5 (30:00):
Mm hmm okay, thank you, David. Father, we come to you,
and we know that your eyes scan the whole globe,
and you know each and every one of us intimately,
every cell of our body, every thought that goes through
our mind, every word that we speak, Lord, and you
know the needs of each and every one of us.
So Lord, those who hear or see this podcast, Lord,
(30:23):
we ask that they would reach out in a fresh
way to knock on your door, knowing that you will answer.
And we pray God, whether it's healing, a financial breakthrough,
for new faith and confidence in you, trust, new trust level,
(30:44):
whatever the need is, God, you know what it is.
And Lord, with those who have heard us share today
about what you're doing in Israel, Lord, may you open
up hearts to what God is doing and how they
could partner in some way even to come and see
it with their own eyes, not to see the ancient stones,
(31:04):
but the living stones, and see your body and see
the work of your spirit in this land in a
fresh way. God, we just pray for a mighty move
of your spirit around this globe, and I asked that
it started Jerusalem. I'm selfish in that regard. Lord, but
we know your heart is for the redemption of the
city in this nation and for the peace of Jerusalem.
(31:28):
So God bring your peace. May this war come to
an end. May you rule and reign from the city
of the Great King. And we give you all the
glory and the honor of Say for David and this
ministry that you've established, this media outreach, God may even
expand and reach even further recesses of this world. We
(31:51):
pray in Jesus name, and you see His name. We
pray Amen.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Well, we send a blessing, speak blessing over you and
your ministry from here in tuls Oklahoma, affectionately called for
a number of years Tulserusalem, as you probably have heard,
and we hope that you will come back on maybe
later this year and give us some updates. We'd love
to connect and stay in touch. And for those of
(32:17):
you that are listening and viewing, remember in the show
notes we have links to the information there of how
you can find out more about Firm and King of
Kings in our community in Israel and around the world.
They're congregations that are being planted and if you have
interest in supporting or being involved, you can find those
details there. Again, thank you Wayne for joining us, and
for those of you that are regulars, thank you. We
(32:39):
appreciate you so many of you. Every single Tuesday we
drop a new episode and we love having you as
our listeners and our followers. From here at GB America,
I'm David Grove saying God's blessings to you and remember
to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
Bye for now.
Speaker 6 (33:00):
Thank you for joining us for the GEB America podcast.
Be sure to follow us or subscribe on the podcast
platform you prefer. Also, take a moment and share this
great content with your friends and family. You will find
us on Facebook, x, Instagram and Pinterest.
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Speaker 4 (33:46):
Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast
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Speaker 6 (33:50):
You love the host, you seek it out and download it.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even
going to the bathroom.
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