Living on the Edge

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
A mother came to me recently, completely distraught, saying, the
way the world's going, I'm so afraid that my child
won't walk with God. So many people are leading the faith.
What can I do? If that's you? You don't want
to miss today's broadcast.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Thank you for being with us for this edition of
Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram. Chip serves as
our Bible teacher for this global teaching and discipleship ministry,
helping Christians develop an authentic faith. You know that desperate
question ship shared is repeated by many parents, pastors, and grandparents.
So today we'll speak more hope and encouragement to those

(00:53):
anxious about this next generation. To the second half of
Chip's discussion with author and pastor John Dickerson.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
In fact, they have a lot to get to, so
let's get going.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Here's Chip with the remainder of his interview the church
and the deconstruction movement.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
It's so interesting at times when I'll hang out with
some people that are very strong on social justice and
I get it. They were pounding the table on some
of these values and attacking Christianity, and I want to say, pause,
do you know where that came from? Do you know
where they came from. And so I think education really

(01:29):
is important. I think we've got to help people understand
who is Jesus, what has he done, and what do
you believe him to be.

Speaker 4 (01:37):
Amen. It's so true. And one of the really unique
things about this book, Jesus Skeptic, is it shows actual
pictures and images of these artifacts, because we live at
a time when if you tell a young person, hey,
did you know Harvard was actually started by a group
of pastors. They were Puritan Christians. It was a Bible college.
And it's not just Harvard, every single one of the

(01:59):
top ten universities in the world were all started by
Christians as Bible seminaries. They'll look at you and just
be like, there's no way that's true. So what we
do in the Jesus Skeptic book is we actually have
a picture. Here's the founding charter of Harvard. It's a
historic artifact and it says this would be Yale's. It
says for the propagation of the Protestant Christian religion. Harvard

(02:20):
has its own language for that. And similar with the
Scientific Fathers, if you tell someone you know Isaac Newton,
Blasee Pascal Johannes Kepler. The list goes on, we're devout
followers of Jesus. People say, in no way it's true.
So we actually show images of their journals where they've written,
you know, poems about their love for God. Same with
women's rights, the ending of slavery, the creation not just

(02:45):
public education, but literacy in general. And this is all
public record. You go back five hundred years, most of
the world ninety percent was illiterate. Literacy only happened where
Christians were because they wanted their kids to learn how
to read the Bible. Even the word kindergarten comes out
of the German Lutheran movement to say, we want to

(03:05):
teach our kinders German for children how to read so
they can read the Bible. And once you start to
see it and you see the undeniable evidence, by God's grace,
we are seeing this open up the eyes of young people.
So earlier I was telling you about Amelia who was
thirteen and was completely doubting all of it. And when
she went to her mom, her mom, by God's grace,

(03:28):
didn't express her panic, played it cool, said hey, let's
talk it through, then went to her room, closed the
door cried, prayed, and as she was praying, God reminded
her of this book Jesus Skeptic. So, then, Emelia, and
this is that thing where only God can control the timing.
You know, if you hand a book to a teenager,
typically they're not going to read it. But Amelia was

(03:49):
curious and she was hungry, and her mom said, here's
a book about you said, is Christianity good? And that
really is the thesis if you will of Jesus Skeptic.
Now in my journey, if you go twenty years when
I was a teenager, my journey was is it true?
And so for me it was a lot of Josh
McDowell books, It was a lot of resources around skeptics answered,

(04:11):
and God used that. So Emelia had a very similar
moment with God to what I had sixteen or so
years ago, and she had it now and Jesus Skeptic
opened her eyes to Oh, Christianity is good for the world.
It's full of data that isn't just from Christian resources,
so lots of world health and other data of what

(04:32):
are the countries where women have the best rights, and
it's all countries. You just then parallel, what's the percentage
of Christians. What are the countries where women have the
worst rights, and it's countries where Christianity is illegal. And
at the end of Jesus Skeptic, lots of evidence that
Jesus actually lived. That didn't used to be a question,
but now it is, and so the evidence is overwhelming.

(04:53):
And again we show the artifacts. We show a Josephus manuscript,
we show you know, the coins of Herodias and others
who who wrote about Jesus of Nazareth at that time,
even though they weren't Christians, Jewish, Greek and Roman writers
of the time. So all that to say, God used
that book to get Amelia to okay, Christianity is good,
and then he used Lee Strobel's work to move her

(05:15):
to okay, Jesus is God. So Christianity's good and Jesus
is God. And God answered her mom's prayers, and not
only is she now a believer, but she's now a leader.
There's a group of about twenty they're now sophomores in
high school, so it's been a couple of years here,
and they get together and they're all girls who are
just in love with Jesus and they kind of lead

(05:37):
their own Bible study. They're all public school kids and
they get together at our church or at homes and
just have these times of worship and Bible studies, something
that only God could do. And so parents' grandparents be encouraged,
keep praying, keep providing the resources, keep being a safe
place that they can ask these questions, and God will

(05:58):
answer your prayers in time.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
What a great reminder and a great word. What grew
out of my journey was I really had to stop
and I had to say why do I believe? And
because I was ministering at Santa Cruz at the time,
it was a super progressive area, I mean, very anti Christian,
anti God. And then yet we saw literally thousands of
people come to church, come to Christ. And when they did,

(06:23):
then it would be like, well, wait a second, this
is counterintuitive to everything I've ever known. And so I
wanted to write a book from my own journey and
from the research I'd done. How do you sit with
a cup of coffee and not give people a bunch
of facts, but how do you have a conversation? Is
it intellectually feasible that the documents of the Bible could

(06:45):
actually be true? Is it true that, like you say,
was Jesus actually a historical person? And what is amazing? John?
You know, I didn't know this, but my journey sent
me on a level of research that was like wow, wow.
And actually that's Lee Strobel's story as well. I mean
his wife came to know Christ. It was like, my lands,

(07:06):
what am I gonna do? She's into this religious junk
and I've got to prove it's not true. And so
we're gonna have a great month together where some will
be some interviews, some will be some questions, some geared
toward young people. Other stuff we're gonna do is just
going to be Okay, are you open? Are you willing

(07:28):
to look at the facts? Could the Bible be true?
We'll look at some scientific issues like okay, in light
of DNA, in light of the most recent scientific research
by non Christians who are now saying, well, there's a
lot of options. And even from Darwin's own words, we're

(07:48):
not saying that the God of the Bible made everybody.
But this did not happen by random chance. It is
absolutely impossible. So anyway, we're gonna have a lot of
fun with all of this. I do want to say
something too, I've never heard of anyone doing this, and
I'm so thrilled that you've done it. You've actually come
up with a game plan that starts about twelve years

(08:10):
old middle school through age twenty nine or like age thirty.
So it's not like you send them off the college
say good luck, hope things go well. So talk about
why you do what you do, what you're actually doing
in this sort of raising up the strongest generation, and
then be unapologetic. If someone wanted to get this, tell

(08:34):
them how to get it. I mean, one of our
roles at Living on the Edge is we're a catalyst.
If there's something great other people have produced, we want
everyone to hear about it and get it.

Speaker 4 (08:44):
All the resources that we are building are completely free
and available to any parent and any church. So if
you go to Worldview, that's one word Worldview dot CP
for Connectionpoint dot Church, So Worldview dot CP dot church.
Everything is hosted there. And so if you're at a

(09:04):
church where you have Sunday School or you have youth group,
whatever model you use as a church, this curriculum is available.
The curriculum is built, like Chip said, from age twelve
all the way up to age twenty nine. Our focus
in the local church is on middle school and high school.
And really what we're doing is we're trying to anticipate

(09:26):
what are the obstacles to faith, and so we have
different curriculum pieces, everything from here's an overview of world religions,
so that kids who attend our church know, here's what
a Muslim believes, Here's what an atheist believes. We treat
atheism and agnosticism as a world religion and we show
where each of them break down intellectually. We show the
cultural results and then the other issues culturally that our

(09:50):
young people run into. For example, sexuality. You know what
is biblical sexuality? And not only what does scripture teach
about biblical second uality? Including our LGBTQ classmates and coworkers.
That's the world we live in. Their classmates and coworkers
and relatives, right there can be siblings or cousins. What
does scriptures say about it? And then how do we

(10:12):
hold that position in a way that is full of
grace and full of truth, in a way that says, hey,
if you claim to be a follower of Jesus, here's
what your life needs to look like. If you're not
yet a follower of Jesus. My priority is to get
you to the foot of the cross and let you
know about Jesus, not to just change you morally, but
to get you to Jesus. And we know that if
anyone gets to Jesus, then he changes us morally. So

(10:35):
it is a wide array of intellectual, cultural, social, even
some historical things where we feel like maybe if they're
public school educated, they might be getting a different narrative
that we kind of have to deconstruct. Yes, yes, And
what's really kind of encouraging, you know, you hear this
metaphor of a pendulum swinging in culture, and in the

(10:56):
last ten years probably we saw the pendulum swing really
extream anti Christian and pro a bunch of other stuff.
What I'm seeing right now with especially what I'd say
is like kind of eighth to twelfth graders right now,
is the pendulums almost go in the other way. And
when I described at the beginning of our time, I

(11:17):
grew up in such a cloistered Christian environment that I,
in my teenage curiosity, thought they're hiding something from me.
I need to go see what else is out there.
We are meeting more and more teenagers who feel that
way about Christianity. They're like, everyone says it's bad, but
I know Christians who are good? What's it actually about?
And then we're able to meet them there, take them
into Jesus skeptic. Oh, look, historically Christians have been good

(11:41):
and there have been bad people in history who claim
to be Christians. And that goes all the way back
to Jesus. He said there would be wheat, there will
be terrors. There was a judas from Jesus own twelve,
so we can acknowledge. Were there some people who claim
to be Christians who own slaves who did bad things? Yes,
there were, But what our young people are being taught
is only that. And when we come in and we

(12:02):
show actual documentation to show that group was the minority,
and if you look at that group's writings, they weren't
really sincerely following Jesus. They were just kind of utilizing
Christianity for their own benefit. They weren't the sincere What
did Jesus words say? How are we living it out?

Speaker 3 (12:18):
So?

Speaker 4 (12:19):
I could go on and on, but we've got this system. Now,
be patient with us. We're still building a lot of this.
The curriculum for eight to twelfth is built. What we're
now doing is we pair every high school graduate with
a career mentor. So whatever field they're going into, let's
say they're going to go pre law, we pair them
up with an attorney in our church to guide them

(12:39):
through their college years. And then the other thing we
do is wherever they go to college, if they don't
go to a Christian college, we partner with the Christian
ministries on campus, and we know those ministries, so we're
in Indiana, if they're going to Purdue, we know exactly
what ministry we're walking them there. We're introducing them to
the leader so that during their college years they're surrounded
by believers, they have a career mentor, and then we

(13:02):
continue with them to age twenty nine. And by God's grace,
only God could do it, but we believe He's going
to use us to end the trend of two out
of three drifting. So all that to say, our tools
are completely free. We'd love to share it with all
of you. Maybe someday this could all be nationwide where
we've got career mentors all around the country, but right
now we're kind of building it all in the local

(13:23):
church and willing to share it freely with parents and
other churches.

Speaker 1 (13:27):
Well, thank you first for doing it. Second, thanks for
being generous. And just one thing I know that you
didn't say is you kind of gave the curriculum for
the headside of it, but you all actually have not
just the relationships afterwards, but during and you have the feet.
You have these young people interacting with believers and unbelievers

(13:50):
and meeting some of the least of these needs. So
instead of this over in this church and this is
what we believe and there's poor people over here, or
there's a gay pride parade, they're getting in the world,
building relationships, meeting these people, loving them and learning. You know,
we all have stereotypes, and if you're a follower of Jesus,

(14:13):
you're narrow, anti intellectual, bigoted, on and on and on
and then, like you said, until they meet a genuine
follower of Christ. Well, my experience has a lot of
Christians they have this idea that everyone who says they're
transgender or everyone who's LGBTQ is like they've got this
picture and I just want to scream. People are individuals

(14:37):
and you never learn to love you don't love them
you don't judge them. Every single person has a story
and they believe what they believe, or they're living how
they live, or they have a behavior or a lifestyle
that actually makes sense from where they've come from. And
most of them have never met a Christian that loves

(14:58):
them except them. You don't have to agree with their
lifestyle or what they think or why. And I just
love that you are having young people build relationships with
people that aren't in that sort of what'd you call it,
cloistered sort of view and have the confidence that, guess what,

(15:19):
that's a good thing. Moms and dads relax. Let you know,
they need to have friends that are very very different.
They're closest friends need to be on the same page.
So I just think you are. You're addressing the intellectual,
the head, the heart issues, and also the feet. You're
taking them to some places that maybe moms and dads

(15:42):
might be a little uptight now and then. But you've
seen some really good things happen, haven't you.

Speaker 4 (15:46):
Oh we have. And you know the encouragement for parents
and grandparents is, you know, what we believe really is
true and it really does work. And so that's where
your safety is it's not that they'll never encounter something
thing opposite. The only way for that to happen is
to you know, seal them off from all of society,
so they will encounter a lot of opposition. But the

(16:10):
truth prevailed, It really does work, and that's what the
Jesus Skeptic book demonstrates. It works for societies and it
works for individuals. And so we want to be guiding them,
coaching them, and that's where the more we can be
a safe place for them to process those things. And
of course we want to be praying God bring them
close friends. I know with my own kids that's a

(16:30):
daily thing. I'll go through seasons where I'm watching their
closest friends and you know, for one or another, Hey Lord,
please bring maybe a little stronger Christian or bring you
and so keep praying. And so if I just want
to thank the Living on the Edge family for really
these resources that our church is building are the result

(16:50):
in a lot of ways of the time where I
got to be mentored by you. So anyone who's supporting
you and what you're doing, what God's doing through me
is fruit that is connected to your branch, which is
of course connected to the vine of Christ himself. But
thank you to everyone who's invested into Chip, because he's
invested into me in a way that God's really using
right now, and I'm humbled to be part of Well.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
We are a disciple making ministry seeking to produce Romans
twelve Christians who live out their faith, and John, you
are doing that in a tremendous way and it brings
me great joy. And you talk very clearly about you know,
if your kid goes to a secular university of Purdue
or whatever, you know good schools. I mean I went
to a secular university. And please don't assume that because

(17:37):
your son or daughter goes to a Christian university that
all the students there and the values there will be
what you hope they'll be. Therefore, you can take your
foot off the gas, because what I've found is one
of the most dangerous places in the world for Christians
to be is in what I call a pseudo Christian environment.

(17:57):
In other words, it verbally says this is what we believe,
but then you know, underneath of it, the great majority,
maybe sometimes even the professors, but usually the faculty is
on board. But if there's a significant percentage of students
that really aren't walking with God and they're living alternative lifestyles.
What you experience is a level of hypocrisy that turns

(18:20):
you off. And so I would just say choose your
college as well, and also don't assume even if it's
a good school. I have a granddaughter who's a sophomore
in an excellent I mean a really really excellent Christian
university that's doing so many things so well, so right.
And she was home on break and she said, Grandpa,

(18:43):
could you pray that God will bring some really serious
Christians into my life? She said, you know, they all,
you know, they love God and we go to classes
and we're learning the Bible. But I mean people that
really hunger for Jesus, that are in the Bible and
regular basis, that want their lives to count. I'm just

(19:03):
having a hard time finding those kind of Christians. And
she said, and you know, I struggle. I want to
be that kind of a Christian. And so I think
your word about who your friends are is a really
good word. And just say to parents, they still need
your support. One of the cop outs that we can
as parents have or grandparents is oh, they're just going

(19:26):
through a phase. So we back away and somehow, unconsciously,
five years or ten years, they're going to come out
the other end. Well, they come out the other end
when people intervene and pray passionately and ask questions and
aren't afraid to gently rock the boat. And so is
your boyfriend a Christian? And if you hear things like, well,

(19:49):
you know, I think he believes in God? Well that's
not exactly what I ask. And tell me a little
bit about your friends, because they still respect you and
they've probably heard the right things. But now they're on
their own and they're taking some steps and making some decisions.
We as parents can't be afraid of a little rejection

(20:09):
or maybe even a little mild conflict to raise those
issues gently and get them on the table, because if
we don't, there's not probably anyone who will. So just
a word from a concerned bother grandparent, fellow pastor here,
and John, any thoughts as we close up today.

Speaker 4 (20:28):
I think my closing thought would just be an encouragement
to parents, grandparents, pastors listening. Who you know someone you're
praying for them, And maybe it seems impossible six years ago,
when we as a church circled up around. We're going
to do everything in our power to raise the strongest generation.
The statistics, the cultural currents all looked impossible. And after

(20:52):
six years of praying daily and doing everything within our power,
including financially investing, we really are seen in God bring
a harvest. There's kind of a youth revival movement happening
in our teens and students. And it's six years of work.
And so I just want to encourage you. Don't give
up on praying, don't give up on you know, sending

(21:12):
those different Jesus Skeptic or Chip's book, Why I believe
other resources that you can get to folks. Get them
those resources, keep praying, Keep just asking curious questions. Even
if there's been conflict in the past. Don't give up.
The more curious you'll be and draw them out and
let them talk. It can repair past damage. So be curious,

(21:34):
ask those questions, keep praying. God can absolutely do this.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
Amen. My final thought would be all the research tells
us that of children who drift away, one of the
core issues was the lack of seeing a vibrant faith
in their family. And it's never too late. But Jesus
and Luke six point forty said, a student, when he

(21:59):
is fully trained or she is fully trained, will be
just like his teacher. And so the one thing that
we can do that we have one hundred percent control
over is we can ask ourselves, Lord, does my life
reflect Jesus? Am I walking with you in a way
that my child would like to emulate? Everything from how

(22:20):
I drive, to where my values are, to what I watch,
to how we spend our money. Not in any legalistic
but is Jesus the focus, the sinner and the Lord
of my life? Your life has such power. And even
for some of you who feel like wow, thanks Chip,
way too little, way too late, I have seen and

(22:44):
have had to in certain areas of my life pause, stop,
get one of my adult children and say, you know,
I did not model this well and I wish I
would have. And I think it's done some damage. And
I'm going to ask you to forgive me. And I'm
addressing that in my life. And that's a very humbling

(23:06):
thing to do. But it's amazing that I think brokenness,
John is something that opens doores, you know, to be
able to say to one of your kids, you know,
I wish I would have done better when I recognize
I blew it in these ways, or you know, I
did some things now looking back that you've kind of
emulated my example, and you certainly don't want the consequences

(23:30):
that I've experienced. And so I think it's that heartfelt,
deep love, fervent prayer, and then none of us are perfect.
Let's keep walking with the Lord understanding. He's our father,
he's a patient, he's understanding, and he longs to empower
us to be the mom's, dads, grandparents, young people that

(23:52):
he wants us to be. So, my friend, thanks for
what you're doing there in Indiana. And my prayer is
that you will be inun days with people going to
Worldview dot CP dot church and people will be downloading
things and discipling their kids, and we're going to see
our youth and our young adults walk with God in

(24:14):
a new way because we're going to focus on what
the way you guys are. So thanks again, my friend.

Speaker 3 (24:19):
Amen, this is living on the Edge, and you've been
listening to Chip's interview with author and pastor John Dickerson.
To go back and catch up on part one order
to get plugged in with any of the resources mentioned
in this program. Check out our resources page at Livingontheedge
dot org.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
Be sure to join us next time as we continue
our newest series, Dealing with Doubts. Until then, I'm Dave
Druey saying thanks for listening to this edition of Living
on the Edge.