Love and Truth Network

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey Arreon, Welcome to Love and Truth Network.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
We are excited to engage with each of you and
our Prey dot Com audience. Whether you're checking on our
content for the very first time or you're a regular
on our channel. It's our goal to bless, challenge, and
equip local churches and christ followers across the United States
and beyond. Through discussion based interviews, you'll engage with challenging
and often avoided topics within the church, particularly related to

(00:22):
God's design for sexuality, vulnerable and authentic relationships, and biblical identity.
This week's broadcast begins right now.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
Often, you know, for guys that have experienced same sex attraction,
we'll see another guy that is someone we might put
on a pedestal.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
What so many of us do is we see ourselves
in a lower place that it isn't just something we
can acknowledge and feel good about where we're at. We
automatically begin to feel badly about ourselves and it can
even stir up feelings of self hatred and just old
the old tapes to kind of run in our heads,
the stories we tell ourselves.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
Good line of Satan's giving me that something sexual with
another man is going to be a benefit to me.
I think in that moment, what I'm really wanting is
to be seen, to belong and to become. So I
said to myself that I had less to offer a woman.
You know, I always wanted to be a man that
a woman can lean on, and I thought that meant

(01:19):
a certain thing.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
There are things that have happened to me where I
was a victim of certain things that should have never
happened to me.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Same thing I'm sure is true for you.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
But there's a difference between having been a victim in
certain situations versus living like you're constantly victimized. And that's
that's where I found myself for a long time.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
And then you know the story we tell ourselves about
how God's es us after we sin. Like I said,
I think people would say God is disappointed to me.
Maybe he's tired of forgiving me. I've gone too far
this time, you know. But those stories are from the.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
Enemy, They're from shame many times people for those listening
watching the many times that we do feel like we
don't have any strength or power. But yet I see
people over and over and over again really hardening their
hearts and doubling down and refusing to turn, refusing when
the Lord is coming to them as the one sheep,
you know, refusing to turn and come to him.

Speaker 3 (02:17):
When I think about what the lies are that Satan
has handed, you know, guys like me that experience and
wanted same sex attraction, and the stories that we've told
each other, it's got fed up with it. So, you know,
eighteen months ago was when I started this journey of
content creation and coaching.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
Well, hey, everybody, thanks so much for joining us for
another episode of the Love and Truth Network podcast. We
were so glad that you're here with us, and we
have a return guest here. I'm excited to have Jason
Mellard back with us again. We did an episode back.
I was looking back on the archives a little bit
and see that we did an episode on number sixty two,
and you can go back and listen to him unpack

(02:56):
more of his story and get into all the kind
of the details of that that would probably help give
our podcast now a little background if you didn't hear
that one. And then on episode sixty three, the next episode,
his wife and my wife joined us, and honestly, that
was one of my favorite podcasts.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
That we've done so far.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
I enjoyed the interaction and the just the honesty and
the transparency that was shared by all, and I think
you'll enjoy that too. So episode again, sixty two and
sixty three, and we're picking up with Jason.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
I can't believe so much time has gone by. It's
so good to see you, my friend.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
It's great to see you as well. Gary, Thanks for
having me on.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
And you know, Jason and I were talking recently, are
texting back and forth recently, and I wanted to do
another podcast with him, but you know, the natural conversation is,
since we've done one or two already, what will we
talk about? Well, there's no shortage of things for us
to talk about. I have no doubt about that. But
in terms of a real theme we wanted to talk about,
Jason brought this up, and I think it's such a

(03:55):
great idea, talking about the stories we tell ourselves. And
I wonder for those listens watching right now, even as
I say that phrase, as I put that out there,
like what goes through your mind in terms of the
stories we tell ourselves? And so we want to just
kind of unpack different perspectives for primary perspectives, but unpack
some of those with you today, and Jason's going to

(04:16):
get us kicked off on that topic.

Speaker 3 (04:20):
Thank you Garry so much. You know, one of the
things I'm passionate about is what story we tell ourselves
about our attractions, about how we measure up to somebody else,
about what's possible for our future, about what God thinks
of us after we sin. You know, those are the
things that really make an impact and how we show
up every day. Yeah, because you know, for example, the

(04:43):
story of how God sees us after we sin. You know,
I can look at porn and in the past, you know,
I've just sat in shame, you know, from doing that
and kind of check myself out of life for a while.
But when I say, you know, know the truth is
that God moves towards me in my sin, and that
it's an opportunity for me to open up and godly
repentance and sorrow in a beautiful way that's productive and

(05:04):
moving me forward. You know, that story is going to
take me to a much better place in life than
I say. It's got to take me out of the
game for a while. And I did a podcast episode
on my own podcast on Your Identity, which is on
Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It was titled and the point
behind that was often, you know, for guys that have

(05:26):
experienced same sex attraction, we'll see another guy that is
someone we might put on a pedestal, and we'll say
he's an attractive guy because he's an attractive guy, and
I'm less of an attractive guy. That means he's better
than me. I don't measure up. He may, you know,
not want to be my friend. I have to achieve
something before I can feel like I'm on the same

(05:48):
playing field with him. And then all of a sudden,
all these things are going on in our mind that
keep us formally living in the present moment right, And
so God has designed us to show up fully ourselves
into interact in a way that is just beautiful with
other folks. And we have all these lies, all these stories,
went on our heads about.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
It well, And I remember, Jason, when two things come
to my mind. One is that idea of what you
just talked about in thinking of somebody as being.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
Attractive or better than or whatever.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
Of course, what winds up happening is we don't just
see that person as objectively. I mean, I don't mean
they we're not objectifying, but we don't see them necessarily
as objectively in one way, being good looking and just
being able or whatever the case is, working out well,
taking care of themselves, walking with confidence, talking with confidence,

(06:41):
those kind of things. It isn't that we just noticed
that and think, oh, that's good. But what we do immediately,
for what so many of us do, is we see
ourselves in a lower place that it isn't just something
we can acknowledge and feel.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
Good about where we're at.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
We automatically begin to feel badly about ourselves, and it
can even stir up feelings of self hatred and just
old the old tapes to kind of run in our heads,
the stories we tell ourselves. And I was also reminded
you were saying earlier the I remember Cy Rogers talking
just you know, about the idea of when his daughter,

(07:17):
you know, falls down and gets hurt, when when she
he referred to something specific, when she fell off of
her bike, which you know, who of us as parents
haven't had that happen with our kids, And you know,
rather than you know, the natural thing for a child
in that situation is to run to daddy or run
to mommy, you know, and he was the one there.
So she runs to him, and it was just if
she he felt like the Lord just really quickened him, like,

(07:39):
why do you not do that with me? You know,
when you fail, when you sin, when you just as
you said, And my response was the same as yours,
as you described, would typically be to turn in shame.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
You know. I know God sees me. I understand that.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
But there was this posture in my heart of turning
away somehow, trying to hide, trying to yeah, cover up
the garbage until I repented enough or beat myself up enough,
and then somehow came crawling back to him. And that
is a waste so much time, and it also just
further demoralizes us in terms rather than just turning to
him quickly. He's the only one who can clean us.

(08:12):
He's the only one that can wash us and set
us in a right place again. And so the sooner
we learn to run to him after failure, obviously before
a failure too, so we don't fail in the first place,
but the scenery run to him after failure, the quicker
we can get back on track and be restored.

Speaker 3 (08:28):
Yeah, we don't have to shame ourselves for telling us
ourselves a story or for accepting Satan's lie. You know,
we can let that be a reminder that, you know what,
this is not true. I'm smart enough to know that
I'm equal with this other guy. Yeah, and that can
remind me to go to the one that tells the
true stories. You know. I think on this earth we're
here to know Christ more and to make him known.

(08:50):
So thinking about this concept is a great way to
do that. But yeah, we don't need all the drama
in our heads. We can just appreciate an attractive person.
We can acknowledge, you know, somebody that is achieved great
success and just leave it there without adding all these
other sentences in our heads.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
So practically, practically speaking, how do you when you say that?
So Melissa and I have been involved in the Living
Living Waters program for two decades, mean for twenty years,
and love the ministry it does, her stream and their
different programs. We're developing one on our own right now,
but in an interhaling kind of program.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
But the.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
What we found is it wasn't like I would start
to recognize like this is lousy thinking, stinking thinking, this
is this actually isn't helpful, and but I until living
waters came along, until I began to really lean into
that and have some brothers praying with me, and I
praying with them on a regular kind of weekly basis,
working through a lot of this stuff, Like I didn't

(09:49):
really know what to do exactly with those thoughts that
would come up over and over again. Now you know,
when I'm struggling, I go to my brothers and I
talk with them about stuff that's coming to the surface,
and you know, they gather around me pray with me.
I'm often the one doing that for them too, but
when they're wrestling, but we pray together and bind that

(10:10):
stuff to the cross, believing that there's something in the
spiritual realm that actually as I give that to Jesus,
as I bind that to his finished work, that something
actually is there's a transaction that's happening that is really powerful.
And as we do that over time, like I don't
have I don't have those kinds of feelings the way
that I used to, and in the magnitude that I
used to have them. They still crop up from time

(10:31):
to time, but nothing like they used to be. And
I think a lot of that is through that practice
of with my brothers, or even when Melissa and I
praying together, my wife and I binding that stuff to
the cross and we have a place to take it.
What are some of the practical spiritual tools that you
recommend or use? And if I'm diving into that too

(10:53):
quickly and you wanted to get to that a little
bit later, that's fine too.

Speaker 3 (10:57):
Yeah, it's great to have the tools, you know, when
you're in the moment and just need something to go to.
I often tell myself that, hey, it's gonna be okay.
You know, I'm having a big emotion and response to something.
You know, all of a sudden, I have this thought
that feels so true, and if I can just allow

(11:19):
it to be there without having to attach myself to it,
or you know, spin a story about you know what's
coming up and just observe it and then you know,
take it to God and invite him into it. I
love that idea of inviting God into the scene, you know,
having him come in. He just diffuses everything right, and

(11:40):
he can take myself as a sheep, you know, he
feels lost and all of a sudden, all of these
you know, thoughts and emotions are coming up. And he
can gently nudge me and pull me in the right direction.
And I think when I invite him into the story,
it gets rewritten. That scene is so different when Christ
is in there and he sees me just as I am.

(12:00):
He doesn't judge me, but he invites me into something better.
And kind of like you're saying before, I want my
knee jerk reaction to be to go to God. Yeah,
when something happens, I wanted to think to myself, Oh God,
He's got the answer, not chat GBT, you know, not
some you know, temptation that I feel like I need
to give myself to. But I want that to be

(12:22):
the case because he's the one that writes our stories.
He embedded who we are uniquely when he created us,
and he has a grand plan in mind. And when
I truly believe that he doesn't just know what's best,
but he is what's best, I think that changes everything.
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
And I wonder for our listeners just you know, is
just on this first, this one example of what's something
we tell ourselves. How does that strike them when we
talk about going to God first? You know, learning to
go to God first. That's something I've had to learn
over time. I'm sure you have to, But does that
feel really foreign to you? Does that feel there may

(12:58):
be something about it that like like logical, like that
makes sense that I would do that, that his word
would underscore that, But you know it, but it just
it doesn't feel natural or it doesn't feel like something
I should do. Guilt, shame, fear, pride, whatever tends to
get in the way of that. So I think it's
just beginning. Learning to begin to do that. I think

(13:20):
starts with recognizing the resistance or things that are getting
the way of it, and then recognizing, oh wait a minute,
this is a goal that I want to lean into.
This is something I want to learn to do more
and more quickly as go to God. And so what's
what's in the way, And then can I push past
those things anyway? Knowing they never those things that keep
me from God never lead me to life. They never

(13:42):
lead me to anything that's good or wholesome or healthy.
They always lead into either further isolation or further sin,
which then creates more shame. So just thinking through some
of that and being willing to push through, I think
is it can be a critical beginning point.

Speaker 3 (13:59):
You know what I think about the story I tell
myself as to what another guy has to offer me,
what the lie that Satan's giving me, that something sexual
with another man is going to be a benefit to me.
I think in that moment, what I'm really wanting is
to be seen, to belong and to become something. But right,

(14:19):
isn't it that the thing that God gives us? And
I think and answer you to your question, if I
truly believe that God is good, you know that he's
the one that sees me, He's the one that I
belong to, that he's the one that wants me to
grow and become something better, then it's just going to
make a lot more sense to reach out to him.
One of the things I do in my coaching group
is to allow us to envision that we're waking up

(14:42):
in the garden of a Veeden before the fall, when
everything was perfect, and you know, we're laying there on
the ground and kind of sit up. You know, we're
opening our eyes and looking around at the beautiful scenery,
and all of a sudden, we feel a presence come
from behind us, and we turn when hand touches our shoulder,
and we see the presence of God, and it's so big,

(15:04):
and we look at his face, and you know what
I envision on his face is that he's like really
excited to see me, excited to see me, but also
excited to show me something. He wants to tore me
around the garden of Eden and say, this is the
place I've created you for uniquely, and then he takes

(15:24):
me to a place in the garden that's made just
for me, for me to flourish. And I think the
idea of that that God doesn't just like us or
love us, but he's generally excited about us because he's
excited for the story that he's writing in us, that
he's implanted, and he wants us to get excited about
it too. You know, I think sometimes just kind of waiting, like, ah, Jason,

(15:47):
if you just turn to me right now, I've got
something exciting I want to show you in the place
I want to take you. But so often we limit
him and what he can do and where we can
go by you know, our view of what's possible and
who we are.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah, And I think that's so well said.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
And I just think everything we're talking about right now,
there could be you know a number of our listeners,
maybe the majority of our listeners or viewers don't necessarily
come out of an LGBT background or what have you,
but they have their own struggles with heterosextual stuff, you know,
and or maybe maybe something else entirely, or maybe they're
listening because they have loved ones who are LGBT or

(16:23):
far away from God. But this obviously translates regardless whether
it's a same sex attraction struggle or it is a
where so many men or women find themselves Christian men
or women find themselves constantly looking for affirmation from the other,
from as a woman, from a man, from a man

(16:45):
from a woman, always looking for affirmation, very easily brought
underneath kind of the the allure of flirting, even as
maybe married, already married to somebody, and yet.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
Still drawn toward that.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
So the the even that is, it's going to have
some different nuance to it.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
I always say I can't stand that word, but I
think it applies here.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
There there's there's some different nuance to what's going on.
But the root issue is still this longing to be
seen and known and and invited into something, as you're saying,
and and so getting down to the root issues. And
and by the way, we're not minimizing the uh, the
the sinfulness of the you know, active sex outside of

(17:30):
marriage and outside of God's design and all the stuff
that kind of goes along with that. We're not minimizing
any of that. But we also know that only beating
ourselves up for it, and and not not trying to
understand and invite God into or allow God to invite
us into what He wants to reveal about what's really
going on, what got broken?

Speaker 1 (17:50):
Uh and and and.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
How can how he wants to be able to repair that,
and and and set us in a in a in
a wholesome place, not a perfect place, in a wholesome place. Again,
whether it's LGBT or it's heterosexual or whatever, I think
a lot of the same root issues apply.

Speaker 3 (18:10):
Yeah. I think all of these things, you know, apply
across the board.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (18:15):
One of the other stories I wanted to talk about
is the stories that our unwanted attractions mean about us.
So those of you listening, maybe you don't experience that yourselves,
but give you a little bit greater empathy on this,
because I think this is something that can be something
to really wrap your arms around the person that's struggling,

(18:36):
and to say, you know, often it's a burden to
have these unwanted attractions. I remember the first time I
had a really strong attraction, the first thought that came
into my head is something's wrong with me. You know,
I am broken. This is awful. Oh no, what am
I gonna do? Right? And all of a sudden, you know,

(18:57):
it's the reaction to it that put me in a
tail spin and really led me into a hole of well,
I need to hide, you know this, because it's some big,
terrible thing. I need to hurry up and get this
fixed so I can get back to regular life as
I know it, you know, and be normal. And that's
really a challenge. But when I say, hey, this thing

(19:19):
is here. We live in an imperfect world, you know,
that's all kinds of things are going to happen. But
I can trust that God's in control. One of the
things that is a story I told myself and related
to having on wanted same sex attraction. So I said
to myself that I had less to offer a woman.
You know, I always wanted to be a man that

(19:40):
a woman can lean on, and I thought that meant
a certain thing. It meant I had to be confident
all the time and walk forward with a sense of
purpose and always have the right thing to say. And
you know, know every verse in the Bible that I
can you know, lead and share the truth of God
at any moment. You know, all of those things that

(20:00):
are great. But I had made this list of things
that I thought I needed to get and to have,
and I also told myself that, oh, you know, these
attractions are a liability because of this. You know, she's
not going to want me, or I'm not qualified for her,
i won't be able to meet her needs. I'm a
weak all of that. But you know, I think we

(20:23):
can flip the script on those types of things. Often
when we think something is a weakness or a liability,
you know, that's where God wants to come in and
do something really cool. Yeah, and I think I have
an opportunity to say ah, because I have these attractions
that are trying to pool me in a sinful direction
and tell me I'm something that I'm not and getting

(20:44):
me to do something that's not in line with who
God's created me to be. I've had to really decide
who I am and what's true. You know, we have
something that feels so true, but it's not. We're all confused.
We really have to get certain about what is true.
And I think, you know, and find that very attractive
somebody that's certain about who they are. And when we

(21:05):
show up saying hey, you know, my mess is my
message and God has this in my life to use
it for good and I can believe that it's not
a liability, then that's another step of confidence that we're
owning our particular story. And you know, women find that
really attractive. And if I don't worry so much about

(21:26):
you know, am I going to be able to be
everything she needs? Well, you know, God is everything she needs.
And when I consistently point her to God to meet
all of our needs together, Wow, you know, isn't that
the definition of someone to lean on? Somebody's just gonna say, hey,
I'm leaning on Christ, so you can lean on me.
That's the story I was able to tell myself there

(21:48):
and really, you know, lean into the girl that I
think was perfect for me, that God brought into my life.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
And I do talk to a number of people who
feel like, you know, they've they've wrestled with same sex
attraction or or heterosexual sexual addiction or whatever, and and
just feel disqualified, you know, because of those things, like
they'll never just what you said, especially at the same
sex attraction stuff, that they'll never be able to no
woman is ever going to want them. And and again

(22:16):
I'm reminded, I don't usually talk about Cy Rodgers all
that much, but I remember him talking years and years
ago at an Exodus conference about I think his wife's
name is Karen, but talking about he's gone home to
be with the Lord. But talking about how now Side
was actually part of the Johns Hopkins program years and
years ago before it was shut down by Paul McHugh

(22:37):
for transgender surgery and all this stuff, And so he
was in the process. He was he had to live
as a as a woman for a period of time,
going to the office and all this, and before he
went through the surgery and and and so he's in
the process of this and and winds up hearing over
the radio that as he's getting ready for work, that
that the program's being shut down. So anyway, that that

(22:58):
was That's I'm only saying that to give the listeners
some backdrop for who Cy Rodgers is. He was very
identity confused, gender confused, guy, same sex, attracted all that
kind of stuff, and so naturally when his before he
got married, when he and his wife were dating before
they got married, naturally her family, I mean, hello, you know,

(23:19):
how would her father and mother feel about her dating
this guy? And her brothers and I mean, what in
the world is going on here? But you know, Karen
walked with him for a number of I don't know
how many years or months that she knew him before
they got married, but she saw the transformation.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
She saw God's work in his life.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
And it goes to what you were just talking about
a moment ago that, yeah, Cy Rogers had all kinds
of you know, wartz and you know, obvious stuff of
you know, he didn't just he was. He grew over time,
and he was a work in progress, certainly by the Lord,
and that's true for all of us. But it was
really obvious in his life kind of where he had
been and the stuff that he had struggled with. But
you know, Karen said to her, to her parents and

(23:57):
to her brother's, her family, look, I know him, I
know what God has done in his life. I know
how he's yielded to the Lord. I know how he
presses in and he is completely open and vulnerable. I
could find another man and this again, this was years ago.
I'm not getting this perfectly right, but I'm getting the
essence of it right. I could find another man that

(24:18):
looks good. You know, everything about him seems right, but
I don't know him, and I haven't seen the transformation
of the work of God in his life. I want
to go with what I know, and I see what
God's doing in his life. So I just love that story.

Speaker 3 (24:34):
Every time you say the name sy Rogers, I smile.
He's one of my heroes. And I think the phrase
that you said, yielded to the Lord is exactly how
I would describe his message and who he is. Yes,
that is something he just says over and over again,
you know, submitted to Christ. And Wow, what strength is there?
What admiration do you have for somebody that's going to

(24:56):
consistently say no to the flesh and yes to God. Yes,
that's who I want to be around, right, that's right.
And then you know the story we tell ourselves about
how God sees us after we sin. Like I said,
I think people would say, yeah, God is disappointed in me.
Maybe he's tired of forgiving me. I've gone too far

(25:19):
this time, you know. But those stories are from the enemy,
They're from shame, and Scripture says while we were still sinners,
Christ died for us, you know. I mean, wow, that
says so much right there, and we believe that we
have great worth no matter what. It changes so much.

(25:39):
My dad, he did a lot of sin. He's sinned
a lot in his life.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
You know.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
When I was a kid, he would go act out
with other guys and you just do things that that
weren't appropriate. But he checked himself out of life. You know,
it was bad the things that he did, but he
would check himself out of life. He would put his
head down, you know, in shame, maybe not physically, but
in his mind for you know, five days, ten days,

(26:09):
you know, whatever it was. And in the meantime, I
suffered present with me. He wasn't present with his family.
He wasn't you know, showing up fully. And that's a tragedy.
You know, what he did was was bad. But wow,
you know, if you said I'm going to repent, I'm
going to open up to God. I mean, don't believe

(26:30):
that he is what is best, and I believe that
I'm going to do that because he has worth in
value that my dad has worth in value. Sometimes you
just don't believe I did this, So I'm not even
worth much. I'm not worth going to God. He's too
busy with people that haven't screwed up right, And when
he says no, you know, God runs after the one

(26:51):
sheep and leaves the ninety nine. Yeah, that's a powerful thing.

Speaker 1 (26:56):
Well, I think that's such a good to others.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
It is, it is, and I think it's it's a
powerful thing for people to lean into because, you know,
so often because of our own again, whether it's self
hatred or anger with God or just feeling you know,
I went through all of that. I blamed everybody and
everything other than myself, especially Christian leaders and God and
all of that. I tended not to take much responsibility

(27:21):
for a long time for my spiritual well being or
emotional well being. But the so I'd say, I really
was very much kind of a victim mindset. So it
wasn't just that I, yes, there are things that have
happened to me where I was a victim of certain
things that should have never happened to me, same thing.
I'm sure is true for you. But there's a difference

(27:42):
between having been a victim in certain situations versus living
like you're constantly victimized. And that's that's where I found
myself for a long time. But I'm reminded of, as
you're talking about this, how God sees how we see
ourselves after we sin. I'm just reminded of the story
the contrast between Peter and Judas, you know, and and

(28:03):
both of them denied Christ. Of course, I mean in Judas.
Judas set up the whole thing, and what he did,
of course was horrible and egregious. But all of the
disciples fled as Jesus said that they would, and and
Peter was the one who denied him three times. You
know that I even knew him before the rooster crowed,
and and so, but you know, Judas went out, and

(28:26):
he was miserable. He tried to take the money back
to the Pharisees, and and of course they wouldn't accept
it or whatever, but trying to appease realizing what a
horrible thing he had done, that he goes out and
kills himself. Then he goes out. So whether that's what happens,
which is horrendous and terrible. We never want anyone to
do that kind of thing. Or we just resign ourselves
to this, this plodding along in misery and and going

(28:50):
deeper and deeper down this spiral away from away from God,
and further and further into our own bitterness, versus Jesus
showing up with Peter and Peter, you know, genuinely coming
to a place of repentance and full restoration. You know,
I just think those two things are at real contrast.
Or I remember somebody teaching on that at one time

(29:12):
early on in my life and just feeling recognizing, oh wow, yeah,
I'm living like Judas in a way. I've already resigned
myself too.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
There's no hope.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
And if we believe those things to be true, which
are all lies of Satan, if we believe those things
to be true, then they are true. I mean that,
you know, what we do, the way we act just
reinforces those things so so much, so much better to
throw ourselves on the mercy of God and trust that
He is full of loving kindness and is immerciful God

(29:45):
and desires as you said, he leaves the other the
ninety nine and comes after the one. He wants us
to come back to him, but we have to be
willing to yield and move in that direction.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
Man. That's really powerful demise, you know, of Judas and
God raising Peter up to be the foundation of his church.
Contrast there. You know, my dad committed suicide about eight
years ago, and twelve years prior to that, he'd left
the family to go into the gay lifestyle. He believed

(30:18):
the lie that it had something to offer him. And
you know, I don't know what was going through his
head when he decided to take his life. Obviously, you know,
some things were going on up there that needed some
help and some work, but he was stressed about finances.
He had a lot of fears, a lot of anxieties,
a lot of need, and my hypothesis is that he

(30:43):
just didn't feel like he was worthy of receiving help.
You know, we're like, Dad, gosh, what do you need?
You know we're here for you. Don't worry about run
out of money. You know, we're gonna take care of you.
But I think at that point he looked back on
his life and you know, it's just decided that he
had done too many things wrong. He told me leaving

(31:05):
my mom was the most worst mistake that he had
made in life. And I think he just let so
many things crush him that God wanted to lift off
of him, want to lift those things off and lift
him up. But it may have been that he just
didn't know how to give himself, you know, permission to
do that and say okay, yes, God, you know, please
do that. And yeah, I wanted so much to be

(31:27):
able to say, what do you need, We'll take care
of it for you, right, And I don't know that
he was ready to accept it, you know.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
I I'm so sorry, and I remember this came out
in our last conversation as well. I mean, what a
what a sadness, you know, for you as a son
to have lost your father that way. I mean, that's
that's a deep pain, I'm sure, and you know it.
It just it reminds me of our need to well,

(32:00):
it reminds me of how I often looked back at
my life and I felt so out of control, and
I felt so weak and and I'd say that in
weak would be the word, and I hated my weakness,
but I felt weak in every way.

Speaker 1 (32:15):
But it was years later that I.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
Feel like the Lord prompted me to recognize that I
always saw myself as weak and as the victim and
all this kind of thing for a long time into
my probably into my twenties. But there was a I had.
I didn't have any idea how stubborn and rebellious I was.
I mean, I knew I did lots of things wrong
and sinful. I didn't that was abundantly clear.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
But the.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
Strength of my rebellion, in the midst of my feeling
like a victim and all that, I didn't have any
awareness of that until the Lord really brought that and
put it right in front of my face, that a
lot of what had kept me away from him for
so long and kept me doing things that I didn't
even and I was so sick of even doing. But

(33:02):
yet it was familiar, and it was a momentary. I
don't know, it felt like something, but I just I
was tired of the whole thing. But there was a
strength in my rebellion and in my stubbornness against the Lord.
And I think that many times people, for those listening watching,

(33:24):
there are many times that we do feel like we
are just that we don't have any strength or power
but yet I see people over and over and over
again really hardening their hearts and doubling down and refusing
to turn, refusing when the Lord is coming to them
as the one sheep, you know, refusing to turn and
come to him. And that was certainly true for me

(33:46):
as well, and it was helpful for me to recognize, Oh,
wait a minute, you're not just this poor lost little lamb. Yes,
in some sense that's true, but you're actually working against
yourself and actually working against the goodness that God wants
to pour into your life. You've got to open your
eyes up and start to see that.

Speaker 3 (34:04):
Man, that's well said. It's beautiful opening your eyes up
and seeing what God has for you.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
Would you summarize?

Speaker 2 (34:12):
So we've hit I think on three stories we tell
ourselves basically, and what are the three so far that
we've done, and that I'd love for you to if
you're ready to move into that fourth one to unpack
that too.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
But as a reminder, yeah, the first was the story
of how we measure up to somebody else. The second
was the story of what our attractions mean about us.
The third was the story about how God sees us
after we sin. The last one I had in mind
is the story we tell ourselves about what's possible in life.

(34:45):
You know, for me, I have thought, because of my
attractions or my trauma, my sin, that my life will
always be small, or I'm too damaged to have a
great future. But I think, you know, what if our
past is not a disqualifier but a qualifier. What if
the very things that we've been through are what God
is going to use to shape our purpose and our impact.
Our mess can become our message. You know, Ephesians three

(35:08):
twenty says that God is able to do immeasurably more
than all we ask. That's right or imagine And I
think that that promise doesn't stop at the edge of
our weakness. It begins there. And when I think about that,
it really empowers me. You know, it's excited. And I
think some of the guys I work with as I
coach one on one and group coaching again, they say, ah,

(35:31):
I've done too much, you know, I've seen too much,
or I'm not enough because I'm not enough, I'm not
going to be loved and my past determines my future.
All of these things. And when they look at Gosh,
can I get my hopes up about the future. I'm
not sure, maybe not, because everything in my past, an
example in my life not as significant, but really important

(35:55):
in relation to what I'm doing right now, is a
story I told myself is that I'm not as much
of a leader as other men, that somebody that works
within a framework. I don't create the framework. I never
saw myself as an entrepreneur, so you know, when opportunity

(36:15):
came up, I would often let another guy who seemed
more qualified take it, take the action on that, and
I would maybe stand on the sideline. Excuse me, I
would stand on the sidelines. But when I think about
what the lies are that Satan has handed, you know,

(36:35):
guys like me that experience and wanted same sex attraction,
and the stories that we've told each other, He's got
fed up with it. So, you know, eighteen months ago
was when I started this journey of content and creation
and coaching, and I've had to unlock a different part
of myself. I've had to decide that, you know what,
maybe that story of being somebody that sits on the
sidelines like I did in soccer when I was a

(36:57):
little kid, when I instantly.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
You know, ran the wrong direction yeah, me too.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
Yeah, that's not who I am anymore. Or God has
something bigger for me, because he sees me as somebody
that can speak a unique message into the lives of
men and other folks that are being limited by what
Satan is trying to offer them as truth and not
opening themselves up to God. So when I said, you know,

(37:27):
I want my message to be what are the stories
we're telling ourselves? What are the stories that Satan is
offering to us, and how can we give those to
God and let him infuse the truth into us, I'd
say that's one of my primary messages. Then I said,
you know what, I've got to be somebody that's willing
to take risk. I have to be somebody that's willing
to create a business. I have to be willing to

(37:48):
be somebody that's on a podcast here with you, or
to create my own podcast. And sometimes I look back
and think, what am I doing here? This is not me,
and but I'm glad it is. I'm glad this is
who I am now. And so I've had it right.
Allow God, God to rewrite the story of what I
thought was possible in my life. I couldn't imagine I'm

(38:09):
be doing what I'm doing right now, and I'm so
grateful that I was willing to say, Okay, God, you know,
I see a need here, show me how I can
contribute to it, and he allowed me to step into that.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
Yeah, yeah, I so agree. I think you said that
so well, and I look back on just you know,
one of the greatest fears for anybody is public speaking,
you know, when it's certainly when they're in school, when
they're maybe in.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
College, that's that's always regarded.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
I think, as you know, kind of top on the
list is one of the biggest fears that people face.
And so it isn't so it isn't surprising, you know
when I say, oh that was that was kind of
terrorizing for me, Like I just I was sick about
it for you know, days, weeks coming into a time
that I knew that I'd have to in some ways
speak publicly, and I would avoid going to meals when

(39:00):
I was in Bible College because I was afraid that
out of all the students there, they would randomly pick
They always randomly picked a student to pray be for
the meal, and I was horrified that I'd have to
say so I'd have to pray in front of it,
you know, before the meal, and so I would I
would be hungry, and I would ski, I wouldn't go.
And but but there was there's so many ways of

(39:22):
having a hard time even engaging in an actual conversation
with a person like I, speaking so quietly and being
so ashamed and so insecure that people thought I was
kind of stuck up, and and when I wasn't at all.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
But I just couldn't.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
I didn't know how to talk to people, and and
and for this to be a chronic thing.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
My first job was I put this in my book.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
My first job, I was working in a mall and
a at a little clothing store, and they gave me
a chance. I hadn't hadn't worked in an area like
that at all. It was very, very, very part time.
But I came in and was doing so I showed
up several times asking about the job, and so they
had an opportunity or an opening, and so I got hired.

Speaker 1 (40:04):
Well, the manager and I were working.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
It was my first or second third day, and it
was a weekday, and it was very quiet, and there
were some customers in the store, and then they left
and my manager, like yelled at me from the back
room and said, Gary, you've got to actually talk to
the customers. You know, you can't just I'm like wanting
to hide into the you know, in the men's pants
somewhere along the wall and just not have a conversation.

(40:26):
So my point is just going along with what you're
talking about, Like, yes, it's amazing that God has has
entered in and done so much in terms of diminishing
same sex attraction and developing my love for my wife
and we've been married eighteen years in September, and being
a father to my boys. And I'd love to unpack

(40:48):
some more of this with you as well, in terms
of potential just being fathers and that kind of thing.
But you look at all that and think, wow, that's amazing,
and it is, but also so just the the more
basic reality of going from being so painfully socially inept
and unbelievably shy and avoiding everything that could possibly you know,

(41:14):
put me in a public light or anything, to now
being on stage talking about all my junk, you know,
and and you know, because I want to minister, I mean,
that's that's something that God has done as well, and
I'm so grateful that that somehow, you know, he worked
like that happened in a way. In some ways, I

(41:34):
feel like looking back, like that, I wasn't even preparing
for that. I wasn't thinking about that, but like this
opportunity just kind of opened up. And I think you
probably would agree, Like you know where you're at now
and some of the things that you're doing. We had
to make a conscious choice to say yes to the
next step. But I never thought that i'd be doing
this now.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
You know, I'm glad that you are, and it's fun
that we can both talk having a similar experience there. Yeah,
I find that when I start to step outside my
comfort zone, like that's when all those lies start to
come in. And if I'm just doing what I've always done,
steps on the sidelines, then there's not as much noise
in my head that I have to deal with. And

(42:14):
that's one reason it's so attractive to say that that's right.
And it's as soon as we go to lunch and
sit there, all we're all you're doing is sitting there
at lunch knowing that there's an opportunity to be called
on to pray, and you're sitting there and that's when
all the things are coming. More that we consistently do that,
believing that God's got us, the more that we can
keep taking the steps in that direction, you know. And

(42:36):
here you're doing what you're doing now.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's all, It's all God, It's amazing.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
And then I mean, and then of course I did
talk about being a husband to Melissa, which is something
in a million years I never thought and way back
when that would even be possible, you know, not even
desirable on my part.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
And and and.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
So it's it's amazing how God can give us the
most incredible gifts that we never think we want, you know,
and can prepare us to receive these unbelievably undeserved and
beautiful gifts such as our my wife and your wife.
And but then also being a father. I mean, I
never wanted to be a father because I thought it'd

(43:17):
be horrible at it. I thought I would just yeah,
I just I just couldn't imagine poor kids being brought up,
you know, under my tutelage. And but I absolutely, of
course I don't do it perfectly. And of course I
go back to my boys and ask for their forgiveness
on a number of things. But overall, like the delight
of being a father and the delight of pouring into

(43:39):
these guys and and trying to give them what wasn't
given to me when I was young, when I was
their age. Later on, my dad and I became very close,
but didn't really have that in my growing up with him.
And so some people will tend to repeat what's happened,
and then some people, I think, will buy the grace
of God, will will under stand, Oh, that was a

(44:01):
major deficit, and I don't want to pass that along.
I want, I need God, You need to give me
what I don't have naturally. It wasn't passed along to
me naturally to be able to pass this along to
my own my own children. So what are your thoughts
about just fatherhood and being a husband?

Speaker 3 (44:20):
That's huge, you know. I'll talk about that in a second,
but I want to talk about a story with my
wife real quick that came up because when we were dating,
she told me that, Jason, just so you know, I
don't want to have kids because I'm going to hurt
them because I had all the deficits like you're saying,
you know, growing up. And I hope you're okay with

(44:42):
that if you're not totally understand if you want to
break this off, And I said, well are you Are
you open to it, like if God decides that he
wants that for you in the future, and she's like, well, yes,
you know, if God wants that for me. And later
on he did give her desire for children, so I
think it's just a beautif example.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:01):
Wow, she had really stuck to that story. You know that, No,
she's not gonna be good to be a mom. Yeah,
and didn't believe that maybe God could do something in her.
Then Wow, I wouldn't have children to father right now,
that's right.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
And I think she talked about that and when when
The Four of Us did episode sixty three, she kind
of got into that more detail and it's a beautiful story.

Speaker 3 (45:22):
Then we had two girls and we were pregnant with
the third kid. We were pregnant and my wife was
pregnant and we found out it was a boy. And
I was like, I don't know, Teresa, I'm not sure
I know how to raise a boy. You know, We've
got two girls. I kind of know what that's about.
And I'm kind of messed up. And she's like, well, Jason,

(45:42):
you got this. You know, you're a guy. You know
how men work. You're amazing. It's gonna be great. And
I think I just needed her to say that.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:54):
It was really powerful that she kind of knew what
I needed to hear at that moment and gave me
the thumbs up. All right, you got this, You're qualified.
The other day, I was in the pool with my son.
It was a beautiful evening. This was Monday night. I
got home from work and Teresa was going to take
the girls out back to school shopping early because they
just like to go shop and it was an excuse

(46:16):
to do that. And so he and I were out
there and I was just like pinching myself. He's five
and a half years old now, and we're there, I
don't know, two and a half three hours. He was
like jumping on the flotation device and he wanted me
to try to get him to fall off of it. Yeah, yeah,
you know, I come underneath it and kind of push

(46:37):
it from below, and then he wanted me to throw
him up in the air. Just went on forever, and
I was thinking, oh, it's getting kind of late, you know,
I need to go to bed. But I was just
pinching myself, and I think one of the most important
things I can tell myself is, you know, it's just
about being present, showing up to not having a bunch
of junk, you know in my head when I'm doubting

(47:00):
myself or doubting that God's qualified me for this, and
I can really focus on him and what his needs
are and be curious about him. Think like, presence and
curiosity are two really key things that are pretty simple
to think about, and that can allow me to be
the father that I want to be. Like I can
get excited about who he's going to grow up into

(47:23):
to be, just like God is excited about me and
what He has in store for me and for my son.
And that gives me a lot of freedom just to
kind of chill. I don't have to have so many
expectations that I need to do everything just the right way.
But if I you know, I'm present, I'm curious, I'm kind,
If I invite God into the story, then wow, you

(47:44):
know what's God going to write for him and for
us together?

Speaker 1 (47:47):
That's right, I'm so well said.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
And as you're sharing that, and I was thinking back
of what you were sharing about your wife as well,
and just turr encouragement to you. You know, I kind
of like to add a fifth story line here, and
it's the story that we tell one another. And you know,
your wife took that opportunity to rather than tear you
down or not offer anything, instead, she turned and she

(48:11):
poured in something that really gave you life. And I'm reminded,
and certainly I think we have the capacity to do
that for one another within our marriages. For sure, we
don't do that enough. I don't do that enough, and
yet and yet the heart is there to do that,
but the we need to, we need I need to
be more intentional about about doing that. I have intention

(48:32):
there and I have awareness there, and I teach a
lot about those things. A lot of times teachers are
the worst ones to you know, make application of their
own stuff. But I'm reminded about, you know, like my
band of brothers that I have now and I've had
different ones over the years, that there's something so stabilizing
and and such a blessing. Hebrews Chapter three talks about

(48:55):
encouraging one another day after day, as long as it's
still called today, so that your hearts are not deceived,
hardened by the deceitfulness of sin and the idea, you know,
when we're wrestling against those negative things that we can
tell ourselves or we believe God feels about us, the
things that we talked about, how stabilizing and powerful it is.

(49:16):
And again I'm saying this for those that are listening
or viewing as well, and just our conversation too, But
how stabilizing it is when we learn to speak life
and learn to speak truth into and truth it isn't
just like you're doing this wrong and you're kind of
barking at somebody about that or whatever, but rather not
that at all actually at the moment, but rather truth

(49:38):
that builds up, truth that helps them break through this
familiar place of believing lies, maybe not just for years,
but for decades about themselves. And when we can speak
in and affirm what's true and affirm how God sees
that person and just keep blessing and pouring in. I
remember years and years ago one of my friends, Dave

(49:59):
Katroll and his wife Kathy. I lived with them for
a period of years and it was it was such
a blessing to live with a Christian family that were
really devoted to their walk with Christ. But there were
times when and I was I was such a mess,
and I was so broken, and I saw him way
way way up here. But it wasn't there was no
like sexual struggle or emotional admiration of that kind of stuff.

(50:23):
It was just he was a godly man always in
the word, a great teacher. I mean so many, so
many good and positive things. And there there was a
period of time when when he would kind of treat
me like a peer like and and actually it really
annoyed me.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
It kind of made me mad.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
And when he would say things like, well, you're my
brother in Christ, and I you know, I trust you.
Well I knew that technically that was true, but I'm like,
you're so up here and I'm such a worthless kind
of you know whatever down here. I remember being irritated
and angry about how he was equalizing kind of who
we are and what he and he was doing the

(50:59):
right thing, for sure. He was speaking life, he was
speaking truth. He saw that one day, you know, we
were going to be very much. He's on our ministry
board and we ministered. You know, we've ministered together at
different things. Love him to death, but I was the
one who saw this huge disparity between the two of us,
and he kept trying to narrow that and and speak
life into me and calling out who Jesus saw me

(51:21):
to be and who I was going to become, and anyway,
it was just it's funny how we can really resist
the very thing that we would desire, because somehow it's
more comfortable to stay in that place of condemnation.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
Yes, absolutely, you know, talk about stepping outside your comfort zone.
It may look like an action that you're taking, It
may look like a new belief, like yeah, okay, that's right,
that I'm enough you know in Christ on equal standing
with so true. It's a bit uneasy for me. And
I love what you said about speaking truth to other people.
One of the favorite verses I like to say to

(51:56):
folks is Isaiah forty three eighteen, which is forget the
form things, not do what dwell on the past. See
I am doing a new thing. You know. Someone that
told me that, it's like Jason, don't worry about who
he used to be. You know, see that God is
doing a new thing in you right now. And you
are more than qualified to be a father, you know,

(52:16):
to be somebody that speaks life and to other men
have a voice, you.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
Know, yep, so powerful.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
Well, Hey, as we're kind of wrapping down here on
this episode, are there is there another thought or to
anything that as we've gone back and forth that you
would have liked to bring up. I want you to
talk a little bit about more about like what you're
doing in ministry and how people can connect with you
and those things. But are there any thoughts that you
haven't had a chance to kind of express that you'd

(52:45):
like to.

Speaker 3 (52:47):
You know, I would just say for those you know
that are listening, that we have an opportunity to take
our stories to God and have him speak truth over
us that allows us to know Him more and inspires
us to share that hope with others and invites them
into His truth as well. And over the years, I
have been handed many stories, and I think folks that

(53:08):
are listening likely have as well, some stories written by fear,
some shape by pain, some whispered by shame. But what
we know is that our attractions don't define our identity,
Comparisons don't determine our value, our sin doesn't rewrite our belonging,
and our future is wide open because our story is

(53:29):
still being written by God, and he's just getting started.
The more that I believe that and integrate it, the
more powerful I'm able to see him work in my life.
And I can just imagine what's going to happen next.
And I'd want to leave folks with that word.

Speaker 1 (53:44):
That's so good.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
I love the phrase that my future is wide open.
You know that is there's such hope and such life
and those words and with Christ and with the Body
of Christ, I mean, our futures truly are wide open.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
So we'll share.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
Jason shared a little bit about or as much as
you would like, about ways that people can connect with you,
and also what are some of the things you've touched
on them a little bit, but be more specific on
what are some of the things that you're doing in
terms of coaching individually, groups, those kinds of things.

Speaker 3 (54:17):
I've had a blast, like I said, over the eighteen
months just developing content and beginning to coach. I've had
an opportunity to take about thirty five guys through multiple groups,
about five to seven guys each over the last year.
And it goes through twelve weeks of curriculum that I developed.
We meet two hours a week and we go over

(54:40):
some of the work that they'll have done on their
own each weekday. To really dig into the stories we're
telling ourselves. And then to go back to those scenes
where maybe some of those lies got handed to us
in a vulnerable place from the enemy, perhaps time when
we were experiencing abuse or you know, we had a
strong attraction and all of a sudden say and said,
this is what this means about you and how you

(55:02):
compare to somebody else. We go back and we honor
that version of ourselves that wasn't able to at that
time kind of refute that lie and didn't know how
to invite God in and we were just really young
and be there for him. Invite God in now into
the story, and to grieve the things in our past
that maybe shouldn't have happened, you know, that were so hard, horrific,

(55:24):
we're things that we just wanted to happen that that didn't.
And then lastly, to envision a future beyond what we
can imagine. If we're limited by our own imagination, that's
not going to get us really excited in the present.
But when we believe what God says that no ear
has heard, no I have seen, no mine has imagined
what he has in store for those that love him.

(55:47):
You know, man, I may ask him for what I
want and he make it right back to me if
that's the best thing, but he may give me something better.
But I have to believe that it's going to be amazing. Otherwise,
you know, I'm not going to show up living fully
alive each day. I'm not going to be giving as
much to other people in the here and now if
I don't really believe that. So that's one of the

(56:07):
things that really hone in on also, and it's been
a blast. Each of these guys in the groups share
a similar story of unwanted, same sex attraction, similar Christian values,
and similar goal It's a little different for everybody, but
just basically living aligned with the values of Christ. And
I've gotten to know guys from all over the world

(56:28):
doing this, and some have had the opportunity to meet
in person. You know. Most of the coaching I do
is virtual. It's just been a blast, and I do
one on one coaching as well. And then content. I
have to own your Identity podcast you can see on
Spotify and Apple Podcasts. One of the first pieces of
content I created was SSA quiz dot com, and it

(56:52):
really totally comes out of my vision to illuminate to people,
you know, the stories that they're telling themselves that I'm
not even aware of, those beliefs, those lies that are
informing their thoughts and their emotions and their actions and
how they show up. And so this quiz basically just
shines a light on that, on how maybe they're not

(57:14):
living fully alive in different areas of their life and
that right wants them to because I believe that God's
got a message that's unique for each person that he
wants to have them share with the world to build
his kingdom here on earth, to know him more and
to make him known, you know, That's what it's about.
And the more awareness you can get, the more you

(57:35):
can be like, well, I don't like that story and
where it's taken me, So let me go to God
and get him to replace it. Let me, you know,
work with somebody to help get me in a better direction. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:47):
Well, and I have a friend who has gone through
one of your groups, and so I can testify, you know,
on his behalf that it was a phenomenal experience and
really benefited he really benefited greatly from his time in
the group and just the content that you developed, and yeah,
it was it was an important not just a stepping stone,

(58:08):
but a number of stepping stones in terms of his growth.
So it's it's been really good, uh to hear that.
And so I just am highly recommending that that people
reach out if they're wrestling or struggling.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
And what's the best way for you?

Speaker 2 (58:24):
Mentioned the podcast, so it's Own your Identity podcast. Is
there a website or some way that people can reach
out to you.

Speaker 3 (58:33):
Own your Identity now dot com?

Speaker 1 (58:35):
Okay, Own your Identity now dot com?

Speaker 3 (58:39):
Email me at Hello at Jason Mellard dot com, or
you can find me on Facebook message me.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
There, okay, hello at Jason Mellard m E L L
A R D. Okay. Awesome.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
Well, Jason, it's been so great to connect with you again.
And we'll have to do this every seems like an
annual event now, so we'll have to keep doing that
and eb yeah, good, Well, thanks for being with us
and everybody, thanks for joining us for another episode of
the Love and Truth Network podcast. Check out Jason's stuff.
You'll be blessed by it, and we hope you'll tune
in again for another episode of the Love and Truth

(59:13):
Network podcast Take Care, Hey Prey dot com family, thank
you so much for joining us for this week's Love
and Truth Network broadcast on behalf of our team. I
hope this week's content has encouraged and stirred you up
to take action, committing to Jesus with greater surrender, as
well as pursuing deeper life giving connections with a band
of brothers or band of sisters within the Family of God.

(59:34):
To engage with more of our content, find us at
Love Andtruthnetwork dot com. Encourage your friends and family to
tune in to our Prey dot com channel and our website,
and we hope to see you back here again next week.