January 31, 2025 • 32 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It is easy to be depressed if I just look
at the bad news, because every day we keep receiving
the bad news after another, especially reading the testimonies of
those brothers and sisters who are tortured that you know
in person. It's very hard, I have to admit. But
(00:20):
the same time I'm upbeat is knowing that our Lord
was tortured in the same way and was being persecuted
and even died on the cross.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Jesus never promised his followers an easy path. In fact,
he told his disciples that the world would hate them.
He sent them out as sheep among wolves. Jesus' words
came true in the life of the Apostles, and they're
still coming true today in the lives of his followers
around the world. Join host Todd Nettleton's we hear their
inspiring stories and learn how we can help right now
(00:54):
on the Voice of the Martyrs Radio Network.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Welcome again to the Voice of the Martyrs Radio My
name is Todd Nettleton in the studio today in Bartosow,
Oklahoma with Bob fu. He has been here before. He
is the founder and president of the China Aid Association.
He is also the author of a fantastic book called
God's Double Agent. Bob, welcome back to Voice the Martyrs Radio.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Thank you Toud for having me again.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Well, it is our pleasure. The last time we talked,
we were talking about China's at that time new patriotic
education law. We were talking about protests actually happening in China,
which was kind of earth shattering that people would publicly
protest against the government. It seems like at every single
point Shijinpang and his government have tried to tighten control
(01:42):
over religious expression in China ever since he took over.
It seems like every year it's like a little tighter,
a little tighter, a little tighter. What's going on now,
and is there any sign of that shifting? Is there
any sign that they feel like, Okay, we've got religion
where we want it now, we don't have to keep
tightening the screws anymore.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Actually it's still the Communist Party continue to tighten is
absolute control and grouping on the churches and any other
so called i'm patriotic religious institutions. You know. Now we're
in twenty twenty five, so twenty twenty four would mark another,
(02:24):
you know, worse year. We can tell the religious persecution
in China across the board.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
I'm interested that you use that word unpatriotic. And why
is it that Hi Jinping and the Communist Party would
say you cannot love your country and also love Jesus,
Like it's unpatriotic for you to say I love Jesus.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, it really goes to the core of a Communist
party's doctrine or ideology that the party, the CCP represents
the best interests of the pel He's the most advanced
culture of the whole world and the most advanced productivity
(03:09):
of the world. So if from any institutions, any especially
religious institutions, that is found not complied with this doctrine,
not showing absolute loyalty to Seeing Ping himself, these are
(03:30):
all called ampitriotic and certainly subject for crushing persecution, even
the Catholic Church. I mean after remember Vatican, right, the
Vatican signed a secret deal back to twenty eighteen, supposedly
kind of giving the Communist Party the latitude to appoint
(03:54):
the Catholic clergyman and Vataicans have the authority to concur well,
you know, so far at least the ten of the
bishops are either kidnapped, or arrested a long time, disappearing
and some like we're arrested for the past six years
(04:18):
multiple times and still have nowhere to see them. And unfortunately, yeah,
man can continue naively implement this secret deal with the CCP.
I call it dancing with the wolf.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
It seems like there's a long history, even going back
to Pastor Wormbrand's days in Romania. Pastor Wormbrand the founder
of the Voice of the Martyrs. There's a long history
of the church trying to make nice with the Communists
and no, you know, you do the politics, will do
the religion. You leave us alone. We won't say bad
things about you. It never works out very well.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
It never worked that well. I mean just considering the
Pangho first time, the German Confession churches, right, I mean
the Lutheran Church at the time, they are try to
appeace the Nazis, right, they think they can get more
space by so called work with the Nazis government hateler. Unfortunately,
(05:15):
the church has a really black mark, very tragically in
the history of the Holocaust.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Even We're talking this week on Voice Smarties Radio with
Bob fu He is the founder and the president of
the China Aid association. Bob, I want to go back
to that word unpatriotic, because I would imagine that the
average pasture in China very rarely preaches on politics or
preaches on anything against the Communist Party. I mean, they're
(05:44):
preaching out of the Bible, they're talking about the Gospel,
they're talking about Jesus. Probably pretty rare for them to
say anything at all about the party or about shijin Ping.
And yet Jesus is unpatriotic, like just preaching the word
is patriotic in the eyes of the Communist government.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
That's right. I mean, essentially, if you take the Holy
Bible as the supreme authority of your faith and your life,
that itself is an unforgivable things periodic and if you
don't surrender yourself. I mean especially those pastors. You look,
(06:26):
you walk into the government sanctioned church and basically number one,
all the so called patriotic pastors have to now go
through re license time. And the first thing this licensed
committee consists to be the party secretary of the city,
the director of Religious Afairs Bureau, the director of Public
(06:49):
Security Bureau. They're all Communists, but they are your colarity.
Like pastoral counsul Right members. Basically, you have to vow
make an absolute commitment to adhere to socialism, communism and
the singing Ping's new thought and certainly the so called
(07:10):
cinicization doctrine.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
So that's how pastors are approved to keep their job,
to keep their lives in the registered church.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah, and now they expand that they expanked areas of
so called patriotism, including the called singing patriotic songs. So
all the patriotic zones are communist revolutionary songs. Can you believe,
you know, in a church before you're singing doxology praising
the Lord Jesus Christ, then you have to sing the
(07:41):
Communist Party's national anthem. And then they said we need
to synthesize the church construction, structure, architect Like suddenly the
Communist Party's theologians found hmmm, you know across on the
rooftop of the church building. It's really not very sentitized.
(08:02):
It's not Chinese Christianchinese. That's you know why they want
the order the takedown of the cross campaign, and thousands
of crosses were suddenly became the enemy of the state
they called national security threat and taken down at least
un official propaganda for the new five year plan by
(08:24):
the three cel Pertiodic Moment and Chinese Christian Consul. The
two arms of Communist parties institution control Christian faith in
the next five years, and they want to kind of
have a cinicized version of the retranslation of the Bible.
So we'll wait and see what a maybe kingdom and
(08:44):
style of Bible will come out.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Well, what's interesting to me is that in my early
years here at Voice of the Martyrs, the story was
always it's not about control, it's just about registration. We
just want to license the churches. If the unregistered churches,
if the house churches would just register with the government,
they wouldn't have any trouble. And I think what you're
saying is showing how wise those house church pastors were
(09:12):
to say no, no, no, we don't want anything to do
with the government, we don't want anything to do with
the Communist party, because eventually they are going to come
in and put their thumb on stuff and say, hey,
you have to do this. And I can imagine pastors
sitting before the Communist leaders of their city trying to
get their license renewed and having to say, well, of
course I want to be a good Communist. Of course
(09:34):
I want all the people in my church to be
good members of the party. It just shows, I think,
the wisdom of them standing up even twenty years ago
and saying, no, we're not going to join the registered church.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yeah, I mean I remember we talk about this issue
like at the time when Communist Party made arguments, Oh,
if you want to be legal, just to come to
register with ours.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Compare it to the tax laws in the US, Like, hey,
you know, churches in the US registered, they get irs,
you know, tax exempt status, and that's all we're talking about.
It's just a little minor thing like that.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
But it's not. It's totally deception. I mean, as you said,
I think the discernment by at least the vast majority
of house churches not to join the wolf's camp, you know,
Commanist Party, I think it is a wise one. It's
from the Lord to protect their purity, certainly knowing that
they will pay a price. I mean now, actually the
(10:33):
Commanist Party use that to prosecute by the house church
leaders by criminalizing pithing and offerings. I mean, this is
the new trend of twenty twenty four. I mean, we
have seen really many many church pastors and even deacons,
(10:54):
elders are being rounded up arrested in the name of
a business fraud. You know. The logic the Commanist Party
had on their prosecution paper very simple, said well, you
are not registered, thus you are an illegal social organization
if you are collecting money, tithing and offering. After of
(11:15):
course the collect so called evidenced by the believers and
after Arno torture, all of them signed oh I was
coerced to donate, then you were engaging illegal business. Yeah,
that's called fraud. I think there was a trial supposed
to happen in like August twenty twenty four for twelve
(11:39):
house church leaders at the Gold Lamp Church, you know,
the Limping Church. I mean they were persecuted, remember back
to twenty twelve, and many were sentenced to longtime imprisonment.
I mean, the same twelve church leaders had been imprisoned
for another three years. And this time they were supposed
to have a trial in October twenty twenty four, but
(12:02):
I heard it was delayed, maybe moved to tiny twenty five.
But they will face hard sentence because remember you even
interviewed some of their members who escaped to the US
asked her, Yeah, one of the pastor's daughter, and she
was sitting here, and they have like one hundred and
(12:22):
fifty thousand members. I mean, just to think about how
much tithing and offering or ten percent, that's millions.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And it's in some ways it's genius by the Communist Party,
if I can say that, because this case is easy
to prove. You're accepting offerings on behalf of a church,
but we don't have any documents to say that you
have a church. There's no, you don't have a church
because we don't have any documents that say you have
a church. So therefore it's fraud, it's illegal business practice,
(12:53):
And how do you defend yourself again, No, I really
do have a church. Well, no, we don't have any
paperwork that says you have a church, so you don't.
It's almost a crime that that the pastors and the
church leaders. There is no way to take it off.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Oh, there's no way to defend I mean in the
in the congru court of the crime, and his party
basically says that, yeah, they set it up from the
very beginning. They actually preemptively declared, like you sued a
Redhead document said lin Fan, you know Golden lamb Turt
is a illegally operating a social organization. And then when
(13:33):
they prosecuted these so the papers that see we we
already created that you are illegal organization. You continue to
gather and collect money than business fraud.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
We're talking this week on Voice Smarties Radio with Bob fu.
He is the founder and the president of the China
Aid Association. He is also the author of a book,
God's Double Agent. I would encourage you to read his book.
It is fantastic. Bob, I want to talk about what
I'm going to call the mysterious case of pastor John
Saw seven years in prison, sentenced to seven years for
(14:09):
Italy crossing the border, which I'm putting air quotes around
that illegally crossing the border. He serves his full seven
year sentence, full seven years, he's released, but he's not free,
like they won't let him leave the country, they won't
give him his documents back. It's essentially like he's not
(14:29):
a person. And so this seven year sentence is now
turning into eight years and who knows nine years, who
knows ten years? What's the latest on his case? And
maybe catch us up on how he's being punished after
fully being punished, Like he served his full punishment, but
he's still being punished.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yeah, Pastor Dhneh Hall, you know, a Chinese American pastor
who really just fill the call by the Lord to
go back to the motherland to share the gospel. Very simple,
I mean one.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Let me let me One of the things I so
admire about him is he is married to an American lady.
He could have gotten US citizenship.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Have his American dream in full, but.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
He did not do that specifically because he didn't want
the Chinese to be able to lock him out of
the country. Like he still wanted to be able to
go back and minister to the people there, and as
long as he was a citizen, he's well, he can't
do that, he can go back. So he he didn't
get US citizenship intentionally to be able to go back
and minister in China. So he could have all the
(15:37):
protections and all the freedoms that you and I have, Yes,
but he did not take them in order to keep
on ministering.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
So now that's the US State Department capitelling. He said, sorry,
you know, unfortunately he's still a Chinese citizen. He does
not enjoy the counsular protection, you know protection.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Basically, there's nothing I can do Chinese.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
But you know, John Thall, as you said, served the
full seven years. Not a single day was reduced from
his sentence, unlike other criminals, I mean, real criminals usually
get a year, you know, out of seven years of
sentence reduction, and he served the full seven years and
(16:21):
not a single moment actually was reduced. And he, according
to his own words, he said, well, I was freed
from a smaller prison, now entered into a bigger prison.
And he was from his prison gate immediately escorted by
the group of Public Security Bureau officers and from Claiming
(16:42):
all the way twelve thousand miles back to Townshaw City
in Hunan Province and pretty much under kind of a
house arrest, and he is being watched. And the John
actually showed their digital like face recognition cameras were deliberately
(17:04):
installed both on the road and also on the in
the aisle of his apartment and facing his door. I mean,
he's under total transparency.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
We're basically they're saying, we are going to watch you
every moment of every day as soon as you leave
your apartment.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
We're following him. Yeah, and then not only that, initially
the refused to I mean after canceling his passport Chinese passport,
so that he can't travel overseas to reunite with his
family in the US. They initially even refused to issue
him a national ID, which will prevent him from even
seeing a doctor. So he has he has to borrow
(17:46):
a house church Christians ID in order to visit the doctor.
Use a fake idea, and he kind of feel awkward.
He kind of make it public, said, I if if
the Commonist Party gave me idea, I will be able
to use it. But if you don't give me ID,
I have no other way. And so good news is recently,
(18:10):
maybe because of that report, the Communist Party gave him
the national ID, but he was still being told he
won't be allowed to travel overseas or to back to
America for another three years. So essentially it's a ten
year sentence, right if the fulfill the promise to give
(18:32):
him a new passport in ten years, I mean in
the next three years. So he said, after I got
reassurance by the State security agents that I won't be
allowed to travel to reunite with my family. I feel
that is the call from the Lord. So he started
(18:53):
his new house church and he started a mini Bible school. Wow,
he is in chart of every day. You know, there
is a called a five pm prayer meeting for China.
So at five pm every day, a group of several
hundred nationwide house Turchi warriors are preing. So he's in charred,
(19:16):
preying for the persecuted. So he's really now he feels
annointed almost right, that's his doll.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
So his perception is as long as I'm here, I
having us stop, they're watching me, I might as well
do something useful for the kingdom.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeap. Recently he even baptized some new believers in the river.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
I mean, yes, what is the logic of the Chinese government?
And I mean it seems to me Johns was a
troublemaker for them. The easiest thing for them to do
would be to hand him a passport and say, go
to America. You can preach all you want in America.
Just just get out of here. You're making so much
trouble for us. Is it just a matter of if
(19:56):
they want to punish him further or why would they
hate on to him when he his wife is American.
I mean, he could easily come to America and they
could be rid of him. Why not let him go?
It just doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
You know, this is a kind of the Communist Party's logic.
I mean, if you kind of are found with the
political criminal charge and then your punishment will be extra,
you know, will have some extra like you know, so
(20:30):
called three years, five years, deprivation of political rights or
these kind of deals. So this is I think is
John Hall is being in a sense taken as a
hostage for his standings, you know, strong for the faith
(20:51):
and Christ and to punish his family members. I mean
it's really it's very cruel. I mean the logic I
mean that is they use this kind of family relationship
as a hostaging point. Just like recently the Communist Party
decided to stop all the children orphans adoption, remember by
(21:15):
the foreigners, Like it doesn't make sense, like the foreigners Americans,
you know, go to China to adopt those many are
disabled children who could die at any time and who
really are living a miserable life in China and provide
them an opportunity to come to the US. Adopting them.
(21:37):
I mean, how many beautiful like stories like you know,
the adopted children have the Chinese government in order to
punish Americans adopting parents all of a sudden, some are
like already half finishing half of the process, all of
a sudden suspended. Yeah, cut off.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
With regard to Pastor johnso is there an element of
making an example of him? Like, hey, this guy is
married to an American. He's well known all around the world.
If we can keep him under our thumb, you know,
you know, we can keep you under your thumb. Pastor
out in a village somewhere that nobody's ever heard of.
You know, look what we did to him, Imagine what
(22:22):
we can.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Do to you.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Is that is that part of the threat process.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, that's a culting. There is a Chinese freeze. Actually
it says to kill the chickens in order to scare
the monkeys. Uh. Basically they want to use that as
an example to scare, you know, others, to you know,
if you are like don Hoo, want to go to
mission in China just to think him as an example, right,
(22:48):
try to scare a way of those missionaries.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
We're talking this week on Voice the Martich Radio with
Bob fu. He is the founder and the president of
the China Aid Association. Bob, there's another prisoner that I
want to get an update on, and that is Pastor Wangee.
We have him on prisoner alert dot com. He is
serving a nine year prison sentence. I believe we just
passed six years into the nine years. Okay, so we're
(23:14):
five years into the nine years. Is there any update
on his situation in prison? Is there any update on
his personal condition, how he's doing health wise?
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, I have, you know, more details than I could
share obviously, you know, because of the sensitivity, and I'm
aware and with the confidence that he is deal continue
his faith very strong. And I heard he even wrote
like two or three books. Oh wow, without writing a
(23:45):
single word on any paper. He's burned, right. He's a writer.
He's an author of many books.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Pastor Richard Armbrand did the same thing solitary confinement. He
wrote sermons and wrote books, and then when he came
out of prison, he wrote it all down.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
We need some good AI, you know, after he comes out,
maybe to dictate that. And he's having a prayer list
of over a thousand items. Wow, he's praying for America.
He's praying for really the people in the free world,
prey for ours. I mean, he's have one thousand, more
than one thousand items. I heard that takes a little
(24:21):
while to finish, right, a lot. So, but he sees
in prison, so he's twenty four hour prayer warriors and
for us I think. I mean, he loves his family
and his father was a non believer before he was arrested,
and after seeing the tremendous love of Christ from the
body of Christ, his father decides to be baptized after
(24:44):
he was in prison.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
He sound in prison, What a blessing for him?
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, so his wife and San Joshua, so they're doing well. Yeah,
that's great to hear.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
I would encourage you to continue to pray for Pastor Wangee.
Also Pastor John sal Wangi is on prisoner alert dot com,
so i'd encourage you go there. You can write a letter,
you can send it to the prison in China where
he's at. You can also write to Chinese authorities on
his behalf encourage them to release him. Bob A couple
(25:16):
more questions, How do you stay encouraged personally because you're
dealing with grief and loss and suffering all the time.
Every day I've been with you. When your phone rings
and it's a Chinese path. Oh this person just got arrested.
Oh this person is in jail. Now, how do you
stay encouraged through the long years of this kind of work?
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Well, thank you for asking that question. I was easy,
you know, to be depressed if I just look at
the bad news, because every day we keep receiving the
bad news after another, especially reading the testimonies of those
brothers and sisters who are tortured, right that you know
(26:01):
in person, it's very hard. I have to admit, you know,
sometimes have to pause, like really, to weep, to really
just think about that. Right, is the l part of
the body sufferers, the whole body suffer. Right, But the
same time I'm upbeat. Is the word of the Lord
(26:22):
keep you know, reminding us. And this is a price
that those brother sisters knowingly and joyfully. I mean remember
Sarah Lew's story, right, I mean Sarah's trail of blood.
Torture was never intended by our Lord right to give
them torture, but knowing that our Lord was tortured in
(26:45):
the same way and was being persecuted and even died
on the cross. So the kind of identification, the alignment
with the Lord Jesus Christ that gives us the most
beautiful comfort when we know this is a reality, not
a real self comfort, and also knowing that all of
(27:09):
this suffering of the church, we see, like capacitor John Hall,
I mean, continue to see the fruits of the Holy Spirit,
the Gospel, continue to flourish and prosper. I mean, nothing
will make you happier than seeing even one soul who's
brought from the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of light,
(27:32):
from the kingdom of eternal condemnation to the Kingdom of
eternal salvation. That's the Gospel. I think, really only the
Gospel can be our best comfort and counseling. So it's
a constant battle. But ultimately, I mean, I think my
family also, my wife supports me, and we have a
(27:54):
big church, right. I mean, whenever I travels, I always,
you know, like a voice matar families, we always get
the stories of stories. It's not only in China. How
the persecution and revival happens in the midst of that,
how the courageous brother and sisters in the middle despite
(28:16):
the persecution, continue to stand strong, and not only in China,
you know, in Iran, North Korea, Eritrea, and Saudi Arabia
mini countries. Testimonies. I mean, these are the kind of
the cloud of witnesses, as Hebrew says, right, key parts going.
(28:38):
So I'm forever really grateful the Lord give me this hit.
I feel it was my second job. By my initial
dreamed of was to become a theologian, you know, training
in Westminster Seminary for seven years. I was ready to
write many more books than God's double agent, to teach
(29:02):
a seminary and train the treach leaders. That the Lord said, Okay,
well you have so many persecutive brothers and sisters, be
their voice. So that's how it ends up.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Amen, Bob. Last question. We always like to equip listeners
to pray, and we've talked about Pastor Wanghi, We've talked
about Pastor johnsle more broadly. How can we pray this
week for China and for our Christian brothers and sisters there.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah, it's were coming into the new year. I think
we continue to lift up those who are in the
prison and many could have been also sentenced. More individuals
we're waiting, I mean, so we need to pray that
(29:50):
they won't lose heart and pray that they know their
story are being known to the outside world, so they're
not isolated, they're not lonely in their solitary confinement. As
Pastor down Hall said repeatedly, that is one of the
(30:10):
single most important things that gives him the comfort in
the prison. It's knowing that many Bland sisters writing letters
to his prison and even the prisoner officials told him.
And we also need to pray for their family members,
for their church. Some like in this new wave of
(30:34):
criminalizing tithing and offering, certainly some Christians under torture have
to sign false confession in that sense, I mean underground
point right, Their evidence were presented in their prosecution paper,
became accusatory to their pastors. So many feel very guilty.
(30:55):
So there is a psychological I mean the hard consoling sight.
We pray the Lord will cover them, and the Lord
knows their weakness and so they can continue to stand
strong and pray for Really the persecutors, as you know
we have Richard Luombret always said told us, right, you know,
(31:15):
those persecutors, they really don't know what they're doing. And
pastor one ye pray for President cy Gameping right, I
mean basically his top persecutor, and even or for the
television of Christ on the pulpit. I mean that's called
subversion of state Parker for nine years imprisonment if you
(31:37):
name his name. Wow. But I guess the pastors now
are more hesitant to name names to pray for the prosecutors. Yeah,
we need to live them up too.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Amen, Bob, It's always such an honor to have conversation
with you. I love that we get to share it
with our v radio listeners. Thank you for your work,
thank you for your decades of being a voice for
Chinese Christians, and thanks for being our guest this week
on Voice of the Martyrs Radio.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Thank you, my pleasure and my privilege.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
You've been listening to the Voice of the Martyrs Radio
as always. If you are just joining us, you can
catch up at vomradio dot net. You can also find
Voice of the Martyrs Radio wherever you listen to podcasts.
If you want to connect with Bob and with China Aid,
their web address is ChinaAid dot oorg chinaaidaid dot org.
(32:27):
And I would encourage you to connect with them, sign
up for the emails that they send out so that
you can pray regularly for the Church in China. And
join us again next week as we continue to talk
about what God is doing all around the world, especially
in hostile and restricted nations, and pray this week for
our Chinese brothers and sisters suffering in prison. Be back
with us next week right here on the Voice of
(32:50):
the Martyrs Radio Network.
It is easy to be depressed if I just look
at the bad news, because every day we keep receiving
the bad news after another, especially reading the testimonies of
those brothers and sisters who are tortured that you know
in person. It's very hard, I have to admit. But
(00:20):
the same time I'm upbeat is knowing that our Lord
was tortured in the same way and was being persecuted
and even died on the cross.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Jesus never promised his followers an easy path. In fact,
he told his disciples that the world would hate them.
He sent them out as sheep among wolves. Jesus' words
came true in the life of the Apostles, and they're
still coming true today in the lives of his followers
around the world. Join host Todd Nettleton's we hear their
inspiring stories and learn how we can help right now
(00:54):
on the Voice of the Martyrs Radio Network.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Welcome again to the Voice of the Martyrs Radio My
name is Todd Nettleton in the studio today in Bartosow,
Oklahoma with Bob fu. He has been here before. He
is the founder and president of the China Aid Association.
He is also the author of a fantastic book called
God's Double Agent. Bob, welcome back to Voice the Martyrs Radio.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Thank you Toud for having me again.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Well, it is our pleasure. The last time we talked,
we were talking about China's at that time new patriotic
education law. We were talking about protests actually happening in China,
which was kind of earth shattering that people would publicly
protest against the government. It seems like at every single
point Shijinpang and his government have tried to tighten control
(01:42):
over religious expression in China ever since he took over.
It seems like every year it's like a little tighter,
a little tighter, a little tighter. What's going on now,
and is there any sign of that shifting? Is there
any sign that they feel like, Okay, we've got religion
where we want it now, we don't have to keep
tightening the screws anymore.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Actually it's still the Communist Party continue to tighten is
absolute control and grouping on the churches and any other
so called i'm patriotic religious institutions. You know. Now we're
in twenty twenty five, so twenty twenty four would mark another,
(02:24):
you know, worse year. We can tell the religious persecution
in China across the board.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
I'm interested that you use that word unpatriotic. And why
is it that Hi Jinping and the Communist Party would
say you cannot love your country and also love Jesus,
Like it's unpatriotic for you to say I love Jesus.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, it really goes to the core of a Communist
party's doctrine or ideology that the party, the CCP represents
the best interests of the pel He's the most advanced
culture of the whole world and the most advanced productivity
(03:09):
of the world. So if from any institutions, any especially
religious institutions, that is found not complied with this doctrine,
not showing absolute loyalty to Seeing Ping himself, these are
(03:30):
all called ampitriotic and certainly subject for crushing persecution, even
the Catholic Church. I mean after remember Vatican, right, the
Vatican signed a secret deal back to twenty eighteen, supposedly
kind of giving the Communist Party the latitude to appoint
(03:54):
the Catholic clergyman and Vataicans have the authority to concur well,
you know, so far at least the ten of the
bishops are either kidnapped, or arrested a long time, disappearing
and some like we're arrested for the past six years
(04:18):
multiple times and still have nowhere to see them. And unfortunately, yeah,
man can continue naively implement this secret deal with the CCP.
I call it dancing with the wolf.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
It seems like there's a long history, even going back
to Pastor Wormbrand's days in Romania. Pastor Wormbrand the founder
of the Voice of the Martyrs. There's a long history
of the church trying to make nice with the Communists
and no, you know, you do the politics, will do
the religion. You leave us alone. We won't say bad
things about you. It never works out very well.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
It never worked that well. I mean just considering the
Pangho first time, the German Confession churches, right, I mean
the Lutheran Church at the time, they are try to
appeace the Nazis, right, they think they can get more
space by so called work with the Nazis government hateler. Unfortunately,
(05:15):
the church has a really black mark, very tragically in
the history of the Holocaust.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Even We're talking this week on Voice Smarties Radio with
Bob fu He is the founder and the president of
the China Aid association. Bob, I want to go back
to that word unpatriotic, because I would imagine that the
average pasture in China very rarely preaches on politics or
preaches on anything against the Communist Party. I mean, they're
(05:44):
preaching out of the Bible, they're talking about the Gospel,
they're talking about Jesus. Probably pretty rare for them to
say anything at all about the party or about shijin Ping.
And yet Jesus is unpatriotic, like just preaching the word
is patriotic in the eyes of the Communist government.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
That's right. I mean, essentially, if you take the Holy
Bible as the supreme authority of your faith and your life,
that itself is an unforgivable things periodic and if you
don't surrender yourself. I mean especially those pastors. You look,
(06:26):
you walk into the government sanctioned church and basically number one,
all the so called patriotic pastors have to now go
through re license time. And the first thing this licensed
committee consists to be the party secretary of the city,
the director of Religious Afairs Bureau, the director of Public
(06:49):
Security Bureau. They're all Communists, but they are your colarity.
Like pastoral counsul Right members. Basically, you have to vow
make an absolute commitment to adhere to socialism, communism and
the singing Ping's new thought and certainly the so called
(07:10):
cinicization doctrine.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
So that's how pastors are approved to keep their job,
to keep their lives in the registered church.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah, and now they expand that they expanked areas of
so called patriotism, including the called singing patriotic songs. So
all the patriotic zones are communist revolutionary songs. Can you believe,
you know, in a church before you're singing doxology praising
the Lord Jesus Christ, then you have to sing the
(07:41):
Communist Party's national anthem. And then they said we need
to synthesize the church construction, structure, architect Like suddenly the
Communist Party's theologians found hmmm, you know across on the
rooftop of the church building. It's really not very sentitized.
(08:02):
It's not Chinese Christianchinese. That's you know why they want
the order the takedown of the cross campaign, and thousands
of crosses were suddenly became the enemy of the state
they called national security threat and taken down at least
un official propaganda for the new five year plan by
(08:24):
the three cel Pertiodic Moment and Chinese Christian Consul. The
two arms of Communist parties institution control Christian faith in
the next five years, and they want to kind of
have a cinicized version of the retranslation of the Bible.
So we'll wait and see what a maybe kingdom and
(08:44):
style of Bible will come out.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Well, what's interesting to me is that in my early
years here at Voice of the Martyrs, the story was
always it's not about control, it's just about registration. We
just want to license the churches. If the unregistered churches,
if the house churches would just register with the government,
they wouldn't have any trouble. And I think what you're
saying is showing how wise those house church pastors were
(09:12):
to say no, no, no, we don't want anything to do
with the government, we don't want anything to do with
the Communist party, because eventually they are going to come
in and put their thumb on stuff and say, hey,
you have to do this. And I can imagine pastors
sitting before the Communist leaders of their city trying to
get their license renewed and having to say, well, of
course I want to be a good Communist. Of course
(09:34):
I want all the people in my church to be
good members of the party. It just shows, I think,
the wisdom of them standing up even twenty years ago
and saying, no, we're not going to join the registered church.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yeah, I mean I remember we talk about this issue
like at the time when Communist Party made arguments, Oh,
if you want to be legal, just to come to
register with ours.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Compare it to the tax laws in the US, Like, hey,
you know, churches in the US registered, they get irs,
you know, tax exempt status, and that's all we're talking about.
It's just a little minor thing like that.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
But it's not. It's totally deception. I mean, as you said,
I think the discernment by at least the vast majority
of house churches not to join the wolf's camp, you know,
Commanist Party, I think it is a wise one. It's
from the Lord to protect their purity, certainly knowing that
they will pay a price. I mean now, actually the
(10:33):
Commanist Party use that to prosecute by the house church
leaders by criminalizing pithing and offerings. I mean, this is
the new trend of twenty twenty four. I mean, we
have seen really many many church pastors and even deacons,
(10:54):
elders are being rounded up arrested in the name of
a business fraud. You know. The logic the Commanist Party
had on their prosecution paper very simple, said well, you
are not registered, thus you are an illegal social organization
if you are collecting money, tithing and offering. After of
(11:15):
course the collect so called evidenced by the believers and
after Arno torture, all of them signed oh I was
coerced to donate, then you were engaging illegal business. Yeah,
that's called fraud. I think there was a trial supposed
to happen in like August twenty twenty four for twelve
(11:39):
house church leaders at the Gold Lamp Church, you know,
the Limping Church. I mean they were persecuted, remember back
to twenty twelve, and many were sentenced to longtime imprisonment.
I mean, the same twelve church leaders had been imprisoned
for another three years. And this time they were supposed
to have a trial in October twenty twenty four, but
(12:02):
I heard it was delayed, maybe moved to tiny twenty five.
But they will face hard sentence because remember you even
interviewed some of their members who escaped to the US
asked her, Yeah, one of the pastor's daughter, and she
was sitting here, and they have like one hundred and
(12:22):
fifty thousand members. I mean, just to think about how
much tithing and offering or ten percent, that's millions.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And it's in some ways it's genius by the Communist Party,
if I can say that, because this case is easy
to prove. You're accepting offerings on behalf of a church,
but we don't have any documents to say that you
have a church. There's no, you don't have a church
because we don't have any documents that say you have
a church. So therefore it's fraud, it's illegal business practice,
(12:53):
And how do you defend yourself again, No, I really
do have a church. Well, no, we don't have any
paperwork that says you have a church, so you don't.
It's almost a crime that that the pastors and the
church leaders. There is no way to take it off.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Oh, there's no way to defend I mean in the
in the congru court of the crime, and his party
basically says that, yeah, they set it up from the
very beginning. They actually preemptively declared, like you sued a
Redhead document said lin Fan, you know Golden lamb Turt
is a illegally operating a social organization. And then when
(13:33):
they prosecuted these so the papers that see we we
already created that you are illegal organization. You continue to
gather and collect money than business fraud.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
We're talking this week on Voice Smarties Radio with Bob fu.
He is the founder and the president of the China
Aid Association. He is also the author of a book,
God's Double Agent. I would encourage you to read his book.
It is fantastic. Bob, I want to talk about what
I'm going to call the mysterious case of pastor John
Saw seven years in prison, sentenced to seven years for
(14:09):
Italy crossing the border, which I'm putting air quotes around
that illegally crossing the border. He serves his full seven
year sentence, full seven years, he's released, but he's not free,
like they won't let him leave the country, they won't
give him his documents back. It's essentially like he's not
(14:29):
a person. And so this seven year sentence is now
turning into eight years and who knows nine years, who
knows ten years? What's the latest on his case? And
maybe catch us up on how he's being punished after
fully being punished, Like he served his full punishment, but
he's still being punished.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yeah, Pastor Dhneh Hall, you know, a Chinese American pastor
who really just fill the call by the Lord to
go back to the motherland to share the gospel. Very simple,
I mean one.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Let me let me One of the things I so
admire about him is he is married to an American lady.
He could have gotten US citizenship.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Have his American dream in full, but.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
He did not do that specifically because he didn't want
the Chinese to be able to lock him out of
the country. Like he still wanted to be able to
go back and minister to the people there, and as
long as he was a citizen, he's well, he can't
do that, he can go back. So he he didn't
get US citizenship intentionally to be able to go back
and minister in China. So he could have all the
(15:37):
protections and all the freedoms that you and I have, Yes,
but he did not take them in order to keep
on ministering.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
So now that's the US State Department capitelling. He said, sorry,
you know, unfortunately he's still a Chinese citizen. He does
not enjoy the counsular protection, you know protection.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Basically, there's nothing I can do Chinese.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
But you know, John Thall, as you said, served the
full seven years. Not a single day was reduced from
his sentence, unlike other criminals, I mean, real criminals usually
get a year, you know, out of seven years of
sentence reduction, and he served the full seven years and
(16:21):
not a single moment actually was reduced. And he, according
to his own words, he said, well, I was freed
from a smaller prison, now entered into a bigger prison.
And he was from his prison gate immediately escorted by
the group of Public Security Bureau officers and from Claiming
(16:42):
all the way twelve thousand miles back to Townshaw City
in Hunan Province and pretty much under kind of a
house arrest, and he is being watched. And the John
actually showed their digital like face recognition cameras were deliberately
(17:04):
installed both on the road and also on the in
the aisle of his apartment and facing his door. I mean,
he's under total transparency.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
We're basically they're saying, we are going to watch you
every moment of every day as soon as you leave
your apartment.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
We're following him. Yeah, and then not only that, initially
the refused to I mean after canceling his passport Chinese passport,
so that he can't travel overseas to reunite with his
family in the US. They initially even refused to issue
him a national ID, which will prevent him from even
seeing a doctor. So he has he has to borrow
(17:46):
a house church Christians ID in order to visit the doctor.
Use a fake idea, and he kind of feel awkward.
He kind of make it public, said, I if if
the Commonist Party gave me idea, I will be able
to use it. But if you don't give me ID,
I have no other way. And so good news is recently,
(18:10):
maybe because of that report, the Communist Party gave him
the national ID, but he was still being told he
won't be allowed to travel overseas or to back to
America for another three years. So essentially it's a ten
year sentence, right if the fulfill the promise to give
(18:32):
him a new passport in ten years, I mean in
the next three years. So he said, after I got
reassurance by the State security agents that I won't be
allowed to travel to reunite with my family. I feel
that is the call from the Lord. So he started
(18:53):
his new house church and he started a mini Bible school. Wow,
he is in chart of every day. You know, there
is a called a five pm prayer meeting for China.
So at five pm every day, a group of several
hundred nationwide house Turchi warriors are preing. So he's in charred,
(19:16):
preying for the persecuted. So he's really now he feels
annointed almost right, that's his doll.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
So his perception is as long as I'm here, I
having us stop, they're watching me, I might as well
do something useful for the kingdom.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeap. Recently he even baptized some new believers in the river.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
I mean, yes, what is the logic of the Chinese government?
And I mean it seems to me Johns was a
troublemaker for them. The easiest thing for them to do
would be to hand him a passport and say, go
to America. You can preach all you want in America.
Just just get out of here. You're making so much
trouble for us. Is it just a matter of if
(19:56):
they want to punish him further or why would they
hate on to him when he his wife is American.
I mean, he could easily come to America and they
could be rid of him. Why not let him go?
It just doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
You know, this is a kind of the Communist Party's logic.
I mean, if you kind of are found with the
political criminal charge and then your punishment will be extra,
you know, will have some extra like you know, so
(20:30):
called three years, five years, deprivation of political rights or
these kind of deals. So this is I think is
John Hall is being in a sense taken as a
hostage for his standings, you know, strong for the faith
(20:51):
and Christ and to punish his family members. I mean
it's really it's very cruel. I mean the logic I
mean that is they use this kind of family relationship
as a hostaging point. Just like recently the Communist Party
decided to stop all the children orphans adoption, remember by
(21:15):
the foreigners, Like it doesn't make sense, like the foreigners Americans,
you know, go to China to adopt those many are
disabled children who could die at any time and who
really are living a miserable life in China and provide
them an opportunity to come to the US. Adopting them.
(21:37):
I mean, how many beautiful like stories like you know,
the adopted children have the Chinese government in order to
punish Americans adopting parents all of a sudden, some are
like already half finishing half of the process, all of
a sudden suspended. Yeah, cut off.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
With regard to Pastor johnso is there an element of
making an example of him? Like, hey, this guy is
married to an American. He's well known all around the world.
If we can keep him under our thumb, you know,
you know, we can keep you under your thumb. Pastor
out in a village somewhere that nobody's ever heard of.
You know, look what we did to him, Imagine what
(22:22):
we can.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Do to you.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Is that is that part of the threat process.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, that's a culting. There is a Chinese freeze. Actually
it says to kill the chickens in order to scare
the monkeys. Uh. Basically they want to use that as
an example to scare, you know, others, to you know,
if you are like don Hoo, want to go to
mission in China just to think him as an example, right,
(22:48):
try to scare a way of those missionaries.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
We're talking this week on Voice the Martich Radio with
Bob fu. He is the founder and the president of
the China Aid Association. Bob, there's another prisoner that I
want to get an update on, and that is Pastor Wangee.
We have him on prisoner alert dot com. He is
serving a nine year prison sentence. I believe we just
passed six years into the nine years. Okay, so we're
(23:14):
five years into the nine years. Is there any update
on his situation in prison? Is there any update on
his personal condition, how he's doing health wise?
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, I have, you know, more details than I could
share obviously, you know, because of the sensitivity, and I'm
aware and with the confidence that he is deal continue
his faith very strong. And I heard he even wrote
like two or three books. Oh wow, without writing a
(23:45):
single word on any paper. He's burned, right. He's a writer.
He's an author of many books.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Pastor Richard Armbrand did the same thing solitary confinement. He
wrote sermons and wrote books, and then when he came
out of prison, he wrote it all down.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
We need some good AI, you know, after he comes out,
maybe to dictate that. And he's having a prayer list
of over a thousand items. Wow, he's praying for America.
He's praying for really the people in the free world,
prey for ours. I mean, he's have one thousand, more
than one thousand items. I heard that takes a little
(24:21):
while to finish, right, a lot. So, but he sees
in prison, so he's twenty four hour prayer warriors and
for us I think. I mean, he loves his family
and his father was a non believer before he was arrested,
and after seeing the tremendous love of Christ from the
body of Christ, his father decides to be baptized after
(24:44):
he was in prison.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
He sound in prison, What a blessing for him?
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, so his wife and San Joshua, so they're doing well. Yeah,
that's great to hear.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
I would encourage you to continue to pray for Pastor Wangee.
Also Pastor John sal Wangi is on prisoner alert dot com,
so i'd encourage you go there. You can write a letter,
you can send it to the prison in China where
he's at. You can also write to Chinese authorities on
his behalf encourage them to release him. Bob A couple
(25:16):
more questions, How do you stay encouraged personally because you're
dealing with grief and loss and suffering all the time.
Every day I've been with you. When your phone rings
and it's a Chinese path. Oh this person just got arrested.
Oh this person is in jail. Now, how do you
stay encouraged through the long years of this kind of work?
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Well, thank you for asking that question. I was easy,
you know, to be depressed if I just look at
the bad news, because every day we keep receiving the
bad news after another, especially reading the testimonies of those
brothers and sisters who are tortured, right that you know
(26:01):
in person, it's very hard. I have to admit, you know,
sometimes have to pause, like really, to weep, to really
just think about that. Right, is the l part of
the body sufferers, the whole body suffer. Right, But the
same time I'm upbeat. Is the word of the Lord
(26:22):
keep you know, reminding us. And this is a price
that those brother sisters knowingly and joyfully. I mean remember
Sarah Lew's story, right, I mean Sarah's trail of blood.
Torture was never intended by our Lord right to give
them torture, but knowing that our Lord was tortured in
(26:45):
the same way and was being persecuted and even died
on the cross. So the kind of identification, the alignment
with the Lord Jesus Christ that gives us the most
beautiful comfort when we know this is a reality, not
a real self comfort, and also knowing that all of
(27:09):
this suffering of the church, we see, like capacitor John Hall,
I mean, continue to see the fruits of the Holy Spirit,
the Gospel, continue to flourish and prosper. I mean, nothing
will make you happier than seeing even one soul who's
brought from the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of light,
(27:32):
from the kingdom of eternal condemnation to the Kingdom of
eternal salvation. That's the Gospel. I think, really only the
Gospel can be our best comfort and counseling. So it's
a constant battle. But ultimately, I mean, I think my
family also, my wife supports me, and we have a
(27:54):
big church, right. I mean, whenever I travels, I always,
you know, like a voice matar families, we always get
the stories of stories. It's not only in China. How
the persecution and revival happens in the midst of that,
how the courageous brother and sisters in the middle despite
(28:16):
the persecution, continue to stand strong, and not only in China,
you know, in Iran, North Korea, Eritrea, and Saudi Arabia
mini countries. Testimonies. I mean, these are the kind of
the cloud of witnesses, as Hebrew says, right, key parts going.
(28:38):
So I'm forever really grateful the Lord give me this hit.
I feel it was my second job. By my initial
dreamed of was to become a theologian, you know, training
in Westminster Seminary for seven years. I was ready to
write many more books than God's double agent, to teach
(29:02):
a seminary and train the treach leaders. That the Lord said, Okay,
well you have so many persecutive brothers and sisters, be
their voice. So that's how it ends up.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Amen, Bob. Last question. We always like to equip listeners
to pray, and we've talked about Pastor Wanghi, We've talked
about Pastor johnsle more broadly. How can we pray this
week for China and for our Christian brothers and sisters there.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah, it's were coming into the new year. I think
we continue to lift up those who are in the
prison and many could have been also sentenced. More individuals
we're waiting, I mean, so we need to pray that
(29:50):
they won't lose heart and pray that they know their
story are being known to the outside world, so they're
not isolated, they're not lonely in their solitary confinement. As
Pastor down Hall said repeatedly, that is one of the
(30:10):
single most important things that gives him the comfort in
the prison. It's knowing that many Bland sisters writing letters
to his prison and even the prisoner officials told him.
And we also need to pray for their family members,
for their church. Some like in this new wave of
(30:34):
criminalizing tithing and offering, certainly some Christians under torture have
to sign false confession in that sense, I mean underground
point right, Their evidence were presented in their prosecution paper,
became accusatory to their pastors. So many feel very guilty.
(30:55):
So there is a psychological I mean the hard consoling sight.
We pray the Lord will cover them, and the Lord
knows their weakness and so they can continue to stand
strong and pray for Really the persecutors, as you know
we have Richard Luombret always said told us, right, you know,
(31:15):
those persecutors, they really don't know what they're doing. And
pastor one ye pray for President cy Gameping right, I
mean basically his top persecutor, and even or for the
television of Christ on the pulpit. I mean that's called
subversion of state Parker for nine years imprisonment if you
(31:37):
name his name. Wow. But I guess the pastors now
are more hesitant to name names to pray for the prosecutors. Yeah,
we need to live them up too.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Amen, Bob, It's always such an honor to have conversation
with you. I love that we get to share it
with our v radio listeners. Thank you for your work,
thank you for your decades of being a voice for
Chinese Christians, and thanks for being our guest this week
on Voice of the Martyrs Radio.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Thank you, my pleasure and my privilege.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
You've been listening to the Voice of the Martyrs Radio
as always. If you are just joining us, you can
catch up at vomradio dot net. You can also find
Voice of the Martyrs Radio wherever you listen to podcasts.
If you want to connect with Bob and with China Aid,
their web address is ChinaAid dot oorg chinaaidaid dot org.
(32:27):
And I would encourage you to connect with them, sign
up for the emails that they send out so that
you can pray regularly for the Church in China. And
join us again next week as we continue to talk
about what God is doing all around the world, especially
in hostile and restricted nations, and pray this week for
our Chinese brothers and sisters suffering in prison. Be back
with us next week right here on the Voice of
(32:50):
the Martyrs Radio Network.
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