April 25, 2025 • 25 mins
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
When believers only have Christ and not have other substitutes
for him, it seems that they're able to taste of
that joy more deeply. Christ is proving himself in the
hardest situations to be truly sufficient for his people.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Jesus never promised his followers an easy path. In fact,
he told his disciples that the world would hate them.
He sent them out as sheep among wolves. Jesus' words
came true in the life of the Apostles, and they're
still coming true today in the lives of his followers
around the world. Join host Todd nettletons we hear their
inspiring stories and learn how we can help right now
(00:44):
on the Voice of the Martyrs Radio Network.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Welcome again to the Voice of the Martyrs Radio My
name is Todd Nettleton and we are in our studio
today with doctor Michael Reeves. He is the president of
Union School of Theology in the United Kingdom. He also
teaches in the areas of systematic theology historical theology. Doctor Reeves,
Welcome to the Voice of the martysch Radio.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Thank you great to be with you.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Well, we are excited to have you here and I
know part of Union School Theology's ministry is not just
training pastors in the UK. It's training pastors even in
places where they could be arrested, they could be persecuted.
Tell me a little bit about that ministry and what
it is, and also I'm very curious about some of
(01:26):
the mechanics of it, like how do you actually do that?
Maybe just describe what that looks like.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yes, our passion really is to serve and grow the
local church that it might be blessed around the world.
And so we've started in the UK, but we're serving
across the continents, and we're serving with a particular desire
to serve those areas that are underserved where it is
(01:52):
difficult for leaders to be able to be raised up.
And so we resource Christians. We have many audio, video,
print courses, books that people can study in multiple languages
to be able to grow. And we want through those
to give a taste to some who might be thinking
(02:12):
a Christian leadership to press into more, to know God,
delighten him more, and so to be raised up as
faithful pastors to lead his church.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
And the website for those of you who are now
wanting to go there, maybe you already got your phone
out ust dot ac dot UK. That is the website
for Union School of Theology. Michael, how does that work
as far as security? I'm thinking, you know, I'm a
pastor in communist China, or I'm a pastor in Islamic
(02:42):
North Africa, and yes, I do want some more training
and I find the website, but also that website might
be blocked.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
Getting a mail from you might get me in trouble.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
How does that work from a security standpoint?
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, So it started with we wanted to have as
much as we can could learning happening in real communities
where people are. But let me give an example of
one location. I'm not going to say what it is,
but one location where it would have been possible, not
easy to raise up leaders. We actually had a physical
(03:15):
learning community in that location. It was a part of
the world where many of the countries around it it
would have been simply impossible. And so we were finding
that multiple pastors were getting in touch with us when
they heard this physical learning community was set up. Multiple
pastors were getting in touch with us from surrounding nations
(03:36):
to say, we'd like to be part of this, but
we cannot physically be present, and so we said, what
we'll do is we'll virtually extend that out, so from
where you are, we will link you in, so you're
actually learning in community with others, but based where you are,
because it does help not just to be downloading material individually,
(03:58):
but to be trying to learn together with others. And
what we found that that's done, it's helped create supportive
networks of people who can know each other look after
each other in that. So we're learning in communities together,
but those can be virtual and therefore you don't have
to travel, you don't have to be physically present.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
It seems to me that sense of community and togetherness
may be just as valuable and just as important as
the knowledge the learning that's happening absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
What we're seeking to do is we want to be
able to raise up pastors, leaders of the church. I
think a problem many people have when they think about
theological education is they think that seems to be distracted
to be apart from serving the church. Do I really
have time for that when there's so much practical to
get on with. But the sort of education we want
(04:52):
to give people is one where we're bringing them to
know God and therefore love and adore him and his
ways to know the gospel so that they can preach
it more faithfully. And that actually happens better when you
(05:12):
can talk through together with other pastors. What does that
actually mean in practice? We've been talking about how Jesus
saves by his grace alone. How does that change how
we preach to people? How does that change how I
pastor with someone that they're not to approach God on
the basis of their works and behavior, but on the
basis of Jesus perfect obedience and sacrifice. And we found
(05:34):
that community is a great way of ensuring that theology
that's learned translates well into better pastoral practice.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yeah and yeah, just those kin well, how do you
actually do that? What does that look like in your community,
in your church when you're at the bulpit?
Speaker 4 (05:54):
How are you doing that exactly? I think those conversations.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
I'd love to be a fly on the wall for
some of those conversations, but I think that's a huge
part of the learning. You know, it seems like every
hostel area restricted nation I have gone to, one of
their biggest challenges is leadership development. Maybe the church is
growing so fast it's wonderful, but now we need a
(06:19):
lot of new leaders because we have a lot of
new churches, we have a lot of new believers. How
do you see the church in the free world helping
to meet that need in hostel areas and restricted nations.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
I think so much of the model of raising up
leaders has been based on an old Western model which
requires two things. One, it requires a lot of money,
so the courses are particularly expensive, which is just a bottleneck,
so not enough people can afford them. And the other
(06:54):
is geographical that they're put in one fixed location and
so you have to travel to that. And what many
seminaries have tried to do to overcome that is simply
do an online version, but you're not then learning in community,
and often it's not really then what you're learning related
(07:14):
to your environment. You might be able to know the
Gospel of Matthew better, but you're not quite discussing it
with local pastors to so how does this really affect
how we in our situation then preach through this pastor
people with this message. So I think there's a need
and this is exactly what we've sought to meet to
(07:36):
have a pasta church leader training and education where we
strip the costs right down to make them truly accessible
in every context so that we can raise up the
leaders we need and make it not only financially accessible,
but geographically accessible as well, bring it to where people are.
(07:57):
And that's how we're going to be able to serve
the church, because otherwise we simply won't have enough leaders.
But we need to be able to grow leaders with
this robust theological education, because I think this is the
weakness of a lot of global mission today that you
might see some fast advance, but it's a mile wide
and an inch deep because there isn't a deep knowledge
(08:19):
of God in his ways.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
And one of the challenges then in a place where
persecution is common is if you're an inch deep, persecution
can knock you off course.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Exactly right, absolutely right. I think we can think of
the strength to endure persecution being something that some people have,
but actually it is a deeper knowledge of God and
the Gospel that will give a pastor and a church
the spiritual resilience to be able to go through those
hard times of opposition persecution.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
We're talking this week on Voice of the Martist Radio
with doctor Michael Reeves. He is the president of Union
School of theology in the United Kingdom. Is there a
different in the training that's needed by a pastor in
a free nation from a.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Pastor who is likely to face persecution? Are there? And
maybe it's not completely different?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
But are there certain classes, books, passages that you really
want to drill down on with somebody who, hey, the
police could knock on the door of your church this Sunday.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yes, in a sense they are almost superficial differences, but
they do matter. I think in many ways. In the
free world it would be good to have some conversation
about what suffering for Christ means, because there is I
think a problem of too much comfort, which means that
(09:45):
there is a double mindedness in so much of the
free world, whereas in restricted nations, in places that are
spiritually harder. The simply isn't that kind of choice? And
so yes, there is a need to tailor to some extent,
(10:05):
How exactly do we deal with this? How do you
deal with comfort in one location a rich nation, How
do you deal with hardship and persecution and opposition in another?
The answers you give actually all going to be rooted
back to the same God and the same gospel. But
just how it applies in each situation.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Are there some times where you've learned in this process?
You know, I think of a pastor reading the story
of Paul and the Philippi and Jail. If that pastor
has been in jail, that story is a little different
to them than it is to me reading in comfort
in my you know, in my armchair. Are there times
(10:46):
where some of the pastors that you're training have have
kind of trained you?
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yes? There are. From my very first experience of global
missions was living on the Pakistan Afghanistan border in a
difficult situation spiritually and to see not only the courage
but the joy of believers. There set a theme going
(11:12):
that I've traced through the decades ever since, and possibly
a verse that would capture it is when Paul says
in Philippians, for me to live is Christ. And what
I've seen is when believers only have Christ and not
have other substitutes for him, the joy in him, it
(11:36):
seems that they're able to taste of that joy more deeply.
And there's a great encouragement because it shows all of us,
however spiritually hard. Our particular context is Christ is proving
himself in the hardest situations to be truly sufficient for
(11:56):
His people. And it's easy to think, if you're in
an easier context, to think, if some small comfort is
taken away from me, joy will be taken away from me.
But believers in the hard situations are showing Christ truly
is all sufficient, and that's a lesson I'd love the
church to learn more deeply worldwide.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
We're talking this week on Voice of Martyrs Radio with
doctor Michael Reeves, the president of Union School of Theology.
Tell me more about your experiences in Pakistan and along
that border. That's a volatile place in the world to
particularly to be a Christian.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yes, it is, and was very early on I was
told that evangelism will bear the death penalty coming from
England from the UK. This suddenly made things deadly serious.
What do you want to give your life for? What
you prepared to die for? That was a wonderful lesson.
(12:55):
And to see beautiful believers faithfully serving ga Christ in
difficult circumstances there was transformative for me. The flip side
to that is I saw a culture there that had
been shaped by centuries of worshiping another God, and it
(13:18):
showed me the profound difference that worship of a god
makes that you become like the God you worship, and
so that there was very little conception in the culture
of truth interesting, which makes sense for the culture. So
if you ask a question, you'd be told something that
is what you want to hear, not what is true.
(13:41):
You're going for a long walk through the hills, and
you want to know how far away is that town,
and the answer is always an hour, an hour and
a half, and you know, it's just you don't want
to hear how long you still got to walk.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
It's three hundred miles. You have to walk really fast
to an hour.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
In Islam, Allah is to described as having ninety nine
names that describe who he is eternally in and of himself.
He's not described as holding to truth. He describes himself
as perverting and deceiving people for his ends, and therefore
(14:18):
it is no surprise that to worship him simply means
not coming to value truth. Whereas with the God seen
in Jesus Christ, Jesus I am the Way, the Truth
and the life. To come to love Jesus means to
love truth. That pushed me into a deeper study of
(14:43):
the Triune God and how this triune God of the
Bible is distinct from all the gods of the nations,
and it's led me on a beautiful journey of being
able to see the sheer beauty of a truth Christians
often think is something the Trinity is often something to
be embarrassed about or shied away from. And I've seen
(15:05):
here's the trump God, who our God is is the
most beautiful good news. You've got three persons, father, son,
and Spirit who love each other in truth, so there
is a loving, truthful relationship between them. The Word of God,
the Son of God, is the very truth of his father,
revealing who his father is. And that's something that I
(15:27):
think Christians could do with pressing into more rather than
thinking there is a generic belief in God across cultures,
and we've just got one message about this God. To see,
the living God, the triune God of the Bible is
quite distinct in his character and his being and his
attributes from all the gods of human religion and all nations.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
And I would say that it seems to me that
American culture is slipping away from that understanding of truth.
And we talk now about your truth and my truth,
and it's like we're kind of going backwards instead of,
like you say, pressing into that.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I think what's happened in the West is that there's
been a basic denial of the foundations of Western culture,
which is built on Christianity. And so by denying the
metaphysical reality of truth, then truth in ordinary conversation doesn't happen.
To deny the being of God means you deny being
(16:31):
made in the image of God. And therefore whole conversations
about identity and human rights suddenly are happening in a
place where none of these assertions make any sense, because
they only make sense within a Christian context.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
We're attacking this week on Voice of the Martist Radio
with doctor Michael Reeves. He is the president of Union
School of Theology in the UK. Michael, the Book of
Revelation says they overcame him by the blood of the
Lamb and the word of their testimony. And I want
to talk about the word of their testimony because one
of the things we do here in Voice of the
Martyrs is share the stories, share the testimonies of persecuted
(17:12):
brothers and sisters. Why is that so valuable and how
does that connect to us? Even those of us who
read the testimonies or hear the testimonies were strengthened, and
we're encouraged and we're able to overcome, even if it's
someone else's testimony that's blessing us.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
Can you talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
I think it's good to relate that verse in Revelation
to what Paul says in Romans one sixteen, that the
Gospel is the power of God for salvation for everyone
who believes, us for the jew then for the gentile,
the Gospel is the power of God to save anyone
who believes. So what we get to see in the
(17:52):
testimony of a Christian is the profession of the power
of God for the salvation of anyone who believes. So
we can say, yes, yes, the Gospel's the power of
God for the salvation of those who believe. But when
you hear a testimony, that's an evidence showing us once
(18:12):
again it's flagging up. Yes, the Gospel can save the
most wicked, those who are furthest off, those who are
at the end of themselves, those who are at the
ends of the earth. The Gospel is able to save
all those who believe. And that's why it's so powerful
because we hear afresh through so many different voices. We're
hearing afresh and remembering, Oh, yes, God is a god
(18:36):
so gracious, he reaches out to all. He's a God
so powerful. He can shatter the blindness. He can speak
life to the dead, to those who are in situations
we thought they would be beyond grace, but through testimonies
we see no and more. He can give joy to
those in situations where it seems it would be impossible
(18:59):
to have joy. So testimonies are powerful because they evidence
the power of the Gospel.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Amen, how long were you in Pakistan Afghanistan region?
Speaker 4 (19:11):
How long did you.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Spend that I was there about fifteen months or so.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
Okay, are there some seeds that you looking back now
you see were planted that are now part of your
ministry and part of your understanding of the world, and
that you see really bearing fruit in the work you
do today.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yes, I'd say the number one seed is who your
God is drives everything in your life. And therefore press
into know who God is, and you will become more
like your God. And so if you worship another God,
(19:49):
if you worship an idol, you will become more like
that but press into know who the living God is,
and you will start becoming like him. So Psalm thirty four,
verse five beautifully says, those who look to him will
become radiant. They will be radiant like he is. And
(20:10):
that's been the great lesson. I learned that there I
saw a culture that was shaped in the image of
another God, and I got to see our God can
shape us in a beauty that is well beyond any
one of us.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
How would you compare that to say, like in India,
where there are millions of gods, how does that And
maybe that's a hard question.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I think a common point is only with the triune
God can you say this God is love. You can
ask the question why did God choose to have a creation.
And if you have a single person God who's been
alone for eternity, the answer often given is to have
slaves or to have friends to worship. It's a need
(21:02):
being satisfied. But with the triying God, what's he doing
for eternity before creation? Jesus tells us in John seventeen
twenty four, Father, you loved me before the creation of
the world, and that tells us that God is love
eternally love because there has eternally been a relationship of
(21:25):
love between these persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.
And you can only have a God who is eternally
loving if he's trying. So, whether you have one person
or whether you have millions who are claiming to be gods,
these beings are not inherently loving if they don't for
(21:47):
eternity find their very being in relationship with each other.
And so only the triying God is a God who
is love, and therefore only the triune God will offer
a gospel of pure grace because he's inclined to be
gracious because he's eternally loving. No other God is wired
(22:11):
like that, whether a singular god or one of millions.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Doctor Reeves.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
We like to always equip our listeners to pray, and
I would like to get your insights in how we
can pray this weekend.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
And I'm thinking especially.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Of pastors, pastors in hard places around the world, but
also my pastor, also the pastor who I see every
week in church. How do we lift up our shepherds
and shepherds around the world.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
I think the key thing to shape your prayer life,
especially if you find your struggling, is think what Jesus says,
and he says, it is out of the overflow of
your heart that the mouth will speak. It is out
of the overflow of your heart that you will pray. So, therefore,
(22:59):
the key to growth in a prayer life is delight
yourself in God. Delight in Him and the prayer will flow.
Praise Him and the prayer will flow. So when He
is more glorious to you, you will start finding the
prayer coming. And always when he's more delightful, good, enjoyable
(23:23):
to you. What happens then is you become like him,
more loving to others. You start finding love for others,
His love for others overflowing into you, and that's where
prayer for others is just going to start bubbling up. So, actually,
if you can nurture your delight in God, that's going
(23:45):
to feed your prayer life. Amen.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
And I would say then that the if you are
struggling in your prayer life, if you don't like what
you're seeing in your own life, press into that and
understand you are going to become like what you're worshiping.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
What are you worshiping exactly?
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Doctor Michael Reeves is the president of Union School of Theology,
Doctor Reeves, thank you so much for blessing us this week.
Thank you for your work to train gospel workers and
pastors in hard places around the world, places where Voice
of the Martyrs is working. Thanks for being our guests
this week on VOME Radio.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Thank you so much. Wonderful to be with you.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
If you are just now joining us, you will want
to go to vomradio dot net and listen to this
in hire conversation with doctor Michael Reeves. We will also
give you a link there to the website of Union
School of Theology. Maybe you want to pursue some of
this training, some of these classes again our website vomradio
dot net and be back with us next week as
(24:47):
we continue to talk about what God is doing around
the world, especially in hostelarias and restricted nations, right here
on the Voice of the Martyrs Radio Network.
When believers only have Christ and not have other substitutes
for him, it seems that they're able to taste of
that joy more deeply. Christ is proving himself in the
hardest situations to be truly sufficient for his people.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Jesus never promised his followers an easy path. In fact,
he told his disciples that the world would hate them.
He sent them out as sheep among wolves. Jesus' words
came true in the life of the Apostles, and they're
still coming true today in the lives of his followers
around the world. Join host Todd nettletons we hear their
inspiring stories and learn how we can help right now
(00:44):
on the Voice of the Martyrs Radio Network.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Welcome again to the Voice of the Martyrs Radio My
name is Todd Nettleton and we are in our studio
today with doctor Michael Reeves. He is the president of
Union School of Theology in the United Kingdom. He also
teaches in the areas of systematic theology historical theology. Doctor Reeves,
Welcome to the Voice of the martysch Radio.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Thank you great to be with you.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Well, we are excited to have you here and I
know part of Union School Theology's ministry is not just
training pastors in the UK. It's training pastors even in
places where they could be arrested, they could be persecuted.
Tell me a little bit about that ministry and what
it is, and also I'm very curious about some of
(01:26):
the mechanics of it, like how do you actually do that?
Maybe just describe what that looks like.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yes, our passion really is to serve and grow the
local church that it might be blessed around the world.
And so we've started in the UK, but we're serving
across the continents, and we're serving with a particular desire
to serve those areas that are underserved where it is
(01:52):
difficult for leaders to be able to be raised up.
And so we resource Christians. We have many audio, video,
print courses, books that people can study in multiple languages
to be able to grow. And we want through those
to give a taste to some who might be thinking
(02:12):
a Christian leadership to press into more, to know God,
delighten him more, and so to be raised up as
faithful pastors to lead his church.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
And the website for those of you who are now
wanting to go there, maybe you already got your phone
out ust dot ac dot UK. That is the website
for Union School of Theology. Michael, how does that work
as far as security? I'm thinking, you know, I'm a
pastor in communist China, or I'm a pastor in Islamic
(02:42):
North Africa, and yes, I do want some more training
and I find the website, but also that website might
be blocked.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
Getting a mail from you might get me in trouble.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
How does that work from a security standpoint?
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, So it started with we wanted to have as
much as we can could learning happening in real communities
where people are. But let me give an example of
one location. I'm not going to say what it is,
but one location where it would have been possible, not
easy to raise up leaders. We actually had a physical
(03:15):
learning community in that location. It was a part of
the world where many of the countries around it it
would have been simply impossible. And so we were finding
that multiple pastors were getting in touch with us when
they heard this physical learning community was set up. Multiple
pastors were getting in touch with us from surrounding nations
(03:36):
to say, we'd like to be part of this, but
we cannot physically be present, and so we said, what
we'll do is we'll virtually extend that out, so from
where you are, we will link you in, so you're
actually learning in community with others, but based where you are,
because it does help not just to be downloading material individually,
(03:58):
but to be trying to learn together with others. And
what we found that that's done, it's helped create supportive
networks of people who can know each other look after
each other in that. So we're learning in communities together,
but those can be virtual and therefore you don't have
to travel, you don't have to be physically present.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
It seems to me that sense of community and togetherness
may be just as valuable and just as important as
the knowledge the learning that's happening absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
What we're seeking to do is we want to be
able to raise up pastors, leaders of the church. I
think a problem many people have when they think about
theological education is they think that seems to be distracted
to be apart from serving the church. Do I really
have time for that when there's so much practical to
get on with. But the sort of education we want
(04:52):
to give people is one where we're bringing them to
know God and therefore love and adore him and his
ways to know the gospel so that they can preach
it more faithfully. And that actually happens better when you
(05:12):
can talk through together with other pastors. What does that
actually mean in practice? We've been talking about how Jesus
saves by his grace alone. How does that change how
we preach to people? How does that change how I
pastor with someone that they're not to approach God on
the basis of their works and behavior, but on the
basis of Jesus perfect obedience and sacrifice. And we found
(05:34):
that community is a great way of ensuring that theology
that's learned translates well into better pastoral practice.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yeah and yeah, just those kin well, how do you
actually do that? What does that look like in your community,
in your church when you're at the bulpit?
Speaker 4 (05:54):
How are you doing that exactly? I think those conversations.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
I'd love to be a fly on the wall for
some of those conversations, but I think that's a huge
part of the learning. You know, it seems like every
hostel area restricted nation I have gone to, one of
their biggest challenges is leadership development. Maybe the church is
growing so fast it's wonderful, but now we need a
(06:19):
lot of new leaders because we have a lot of
new churches, we have a lot of new believers. How
do you see the church in the free world helping
to meet that need in hostel areas and restricted nations.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
I think so much of the model of raising up
leaders has been based on an old Western model which
requires two things. One, it requires a lot of money,
so the courses are particularly expensive, which is just a bottleneck,
so not enough people can afford them. And the other
(06:54):
is geographical that they're put in one fixed location and
so you have to travel to that. And what many
seminaries have tried to do to overcome that is simply
do an online version, but you're not then learning in community,
and often it's not really then what you're learning related
(07:14):
to your environment. You might be able to know the
Gospel of Matthew better, but you're not quite discussing it
with local pastors to so how does this really affect
how we in our situation then preach through this pastor
people with this message. So I think there's a need
and this is exactly what we've sought to meet to
(07:36):
have a pasta church leader training and education where we
strip the costs right down to make them truly accessible
in every context so that we can raise up the
leaders we need and make it not only financially accessible,
but geographically accessible as well, bring it to where people are.
(07:57):
And that's how we're going to be able to serve
the church, because otherwise we simply won't have enough leaders.
But we need to be able to grow leaders with
this robust theological education, because I think this is the
weakness of a lot of global mission today that you
might see some fast advance, but it's a mile wide
and an inch deep because there isn't a deep knowledge
(08:19):
of God in his ways.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
And one of the challenges then in a place where
persecution is common is if you're an inch deep, persecution
can knock you off course.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Exactly right, absolutely right. I think we can think of
the strength to endure persecution being something that some people have,
but actually it is a deeper knowledge of God and
the Gospel that will give a pastor and a church
the spiritual resilience to be able to go through those
hard times of opposition persecution.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
We're talking this week on Voice of the Martist Radio
with doctor Michael Reeves. He is the president of Union
School of theology in the United Kingdom. Is there a
different in the training that's needed by a pastor in
a free nation from a.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Pastor who is likely to face persecution? Are there? And
maybe it's not completely different?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
But are there certain classes, books, passages that you really
want to drill down on with somebody who, hey, the
police could knock on the door of your church this Sunday.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yes, in a sense they are almost superficial differences, but
they do matter. I think in many ways. In the
free world it would be good to have some conversation
about what suffering for Christ means, because there is I
think a problem of too much comfort, which means that
(09:45):
there is a double mindedness in so much of the
free world, whereas in restricted nations, in places that are
spiritually harder. The simply isn't that kind of choice? And
so yes, there is a need to tailor to some extent,
(10:05):
How exactly do we deal with this? How do you
deal with comfort in one location a rich nation, How
do you deal with hardship and persecution and opposition in another?
The answers you give actually all going to be rooted
back to the same God and the same gospel. But
just how it applies in each situation.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Are there some times where you've learned in this process?
You know, I think of a pastor reading the story
of Paul and the Philippi and Jail. If that pastor
has been in jail, that story is a little different
to them than it is to me reading in comfort
in my you know, in my armchair. Are there times
(10:46):
where some of the pastors that you're training have have
kind of trained you?
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yes? There are. From my very first experience of global
missions was living on the Pakistan Afghanistan border in a
difficult situation spiritually and to see not only the courage
but the joy of believers. There set a theme going
(11:12):
that I've traced through the decades ever since, and possibly
a verse that would capture it is when Paul says
in Philippians, for me to live is Christ. And what
I've seen is when believers only have Christ and not
have other substitutes for him, the joy in him, it
(11:36):
seems that they're able to taste of that joy more deeply.
And there's a great encouragement because it shows all of us,
however spiritually hard. Our particular context is Christ is proving
himself in the hardest situations to be truly sufficient for
(11:56):
His people. And it's easy to think, if you're in
an easier context, to think, if some small comfort is
taken away from me, joy will be taken away from me.
But believers in the hard situations are showing Christ truly
is all sufficient, and that's a lesson I'd love the
church to learn more deeply worldwide.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
We're talking this week on Voice of Martyrs Radio with
doctor Michael Reeves, the president of Union School of Theology.
Tell me more about your experiences in Pakistan and along
that border. That's a volatile place in the world to
particularly to be a Christian.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yes, it is, and was very early on I was
told that evangelism will bear the death penalty coming from
England from the UK. This suddenly made things deadly serious.
What do you want to give your life for? What
you prepared to die for? That was a wonderful lesson.
(12:55):
And to see beautiful believers faithfully serving ga Christ in
difficult circumstances there was transformative for me. The flip side
to that is I saw a culture there that had
been shaped by centuries of worshiping another God, and it
(13:18):
showed me the profound difference that worship of a god
makes that you become like the God you worship, and
so that there was very little conception in the culture
of truth interesting, which makes sense for the culture. So
if you ask a question, you'd be told something that
is what you want to hear, not what is true.
(13:41):
You're going for a long walk through the hills, and
you want to know how far away is that town,
and the answer is always an hour, an hour and
a half, and you know, it's just you don't want
to hear how long you still got to walk.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
It's three hundred miles. You have to walk really fast
to an hour.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
In Islam, Allah is to described as having ninety nine
names that describe who he is eternally in and of himself.
He's not described as holding to truth. He describes himself
as perverting and deceiving people for his ends, and therefore
(14:18):
it is no surprise that to worship him simply means
not coming to value truth. Whereas with the God seen
in Jesus Christ, Jesus I am the Way, the Truth
and the life. To come to love Jesus means to
love truth. That pushed me into a deeper study of
(14:43):
the Triune God and how this triune God of the
Bible is distinct from all the gods of the nations,
and it's led me on a beautiful journey of being
able to see the sheer beauty of a truth Christians
often think is something the Trinity is often something to
be embarrassed about or shied away from. And I've seen
(15:05):
here's the trump God, who our God is is the
most beautiful good news. You've got three persons, father, son,
and Spirit who love each other in truth, so there
is a loving, truthful relationship between them. The Word of God,
the Son of God, is the very truth of his father,
revealing who his father is. And that's something that I
(15:27):
think Christians could do with pressing into more rather than
thinking there is a generic belief in God across cultures,
and we've just got one message about this God. To see,
the living God, the triune God of the Bible is
quite distinct in his character and his being and his
attributes from all the gods of human religion and all nations.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
And I would say that it seems to me that
American culture is slipping away from that understanding of truth.
And we talk now about your truth and my truth,
and it's like we're kind of going backwards instead of,
like you say, pressing into that.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I think what's happened in the West is that there's
been a basic denial of the foundations of Western culture,
which is built on Christianity. And so by denying the
metaphysical reality of truth, then truth in ordinary conversation doesn't happen.
To deny the being of God means you deny being
(16:31):
made in the image of God. And therefore whole conversations
about identity and human rights suddenly are happening in a
place where none of these assertions make any sense, because
they only make sense within a Christian context.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
We're attacking this week on Voice of the Martist Radio
with doctor Michael Reeves. He is the president of Union
School of Theology in the UK. Michael, the Book of
Revelation says they overcame him by the blood of the
Lamb and the word of their testimony. And I want
to talk about the word of their testimony because one
of the things we do here in Voice of the
Martyrs is share the stories, share the testimonies of persecuted
(17:12):
brothers and sisters. Why is that so valuable and how
does that connect to us? Even those of us who
read the testimonies or hear the testimonies were strengthened, and
we're encouraged and we're able to overcome, even if it's
someone else's testimony that's blessing us.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
Can you talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
I think it's good to relate that verse in Revelation
to what Paul says in Romans one sixteen, that the
Gospel is the power of God for salvation for everyone
who believes, us for the jew then for the gentile,
the Gospel is the power of God to save anyone
who believes. So what we get to see in the
(17:52):
testimony of a Christian is the profession of the power
of God for the salvation of anyone who believes. So
we can say, yes, yes, the Gospel's the power of
God for the salvation of those who believe. But when
you hear a testimony, that's an evidence showing us once
(18:12):
again it's flagging up. Yes, the Gospel can save the
most wicked, those who are furthest off, those who are
at the end of themselves, those who are at the
ends of the earth. The Gospel is able to save
all those who believe. And that's why it's so powerful
because we hear afresh through so many different voices. We're
hearing afresh and remembering, Oh, yes, God is a god
(18:36):
so gracious, he reaches out to all. He's a God
so powerful. He can shatter the blindness. He can speak
life to the dead, to those who are in situations
we thought they would be beyond grace, but through testimonies
we see no and more. He can give joy to
those in situations where it seems it would be impossible
(18:59):
to have joy. So testimonies are powerful because they evidence
the power of the Gospel.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Amen, how long were you in Pakistan Afghanistan region?
Speaker 4 (19:11):
How long did you.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Spend that I was there about fifteen months or so.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
Okay, are there some seeds that you looking back now
you see were planted that are now part of your
ministry and part of your understanding of the world, and
that you see really bearing fruit in the work you
do today.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yes, I'd say the number one seed is who your
God is drives everything in your life. And therefore press
into know who God is, and you will become more
like your God. And so if you worship another God,
(19:49):
if you worship an idol, you will become more like
that but press into know who the living God is,
and you will start becoming like him. So Psalm thirty four,
verse five beautifully says, those who look to him will
become radiant. They will be radiant like he is. And
(20:10):
that's been the great lesson. I learned that there I
saw a culture that was shaped in the image of
another God, and I got to see our God can
shape us in a beauty that is well beyond any
one of us.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
How would you compare that to say, like in India,
where there are millions of gods, how does that And
maybe that's a hard question.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I think a common point is only with the triune
God can you say this God is love. You can
ask the question why did God choose to have a creation.
And if you have a single person God who's been
alone for eternity, the answer often given is to have
slaves or to have friends to worship. It's a need
(21:02):
being satisfied. But with the triying God, what's he doing
for eternity before creation? Jesus tells us in John seventeen
twenty four, Father, you loved me before the creation of
the world, and that tells us that God is love
eternally love because there has eternally been a relationship of
(21:25):
love between these persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.
And you can only have a God who is eternally
loving if he's trying. So, whether you have one person
or whether you have millions who are claiming to be gods,
these beings are not inherently loving if they don't for
(21:47):
eternity find their very being in relationship with each other.
And so only the triying God is a God who
is love, and therefore only the triune God will offer
a gospel of pure grace because he's inclined to be
gracious because he's eternally loving. No other God is wired
(22:11):
like that, whether a singular god or one of millions.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Doctor Reeves.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
We like to always equip our listeners to pray, and
I would like to get your insights in how we
can pray this weekend.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
And I'm thinking especially.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Of pastors, pastors in hard places around the world, but
also my pastor, also the pastor who I see every
week in church. How do we lift up our shepherds
and shepherds around the world.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
I think the key thing to shape your prayer life,
especially if you find your struggling, is think what Jesus says,
and he says, it is out of the overflow of
your heart that the mouth will speak. It is out
of the overflow of your heart that you will pray. So, therefore,
(22:59):
the key to growth in a prayer life is delight
yourself in God. Delight in Him and the prayer will flow.
Praise Him and the prayer will flow. So when He
is more glorious to you, you will start finding the
prayer coming. And always when he's more delightful, good, enjoyable
(23:23):
to you. What happens then is you become like him,
more loving to others. You start finding love for others,
His love for others overflowing into you, and that's where
prayer for others is just going to start bubbling up. So, actually,
if you can nurture your delight in God, that's going
(23:45):
to feed your prayer life. Amen.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
And I would say then that the if you are
struggling in your prayer life, if you don't like what
you're seeing in your own life, press into that and
understand you are going to become like what you're worshiping.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
What are you worshiping exactly?
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Doctor Michael Reeves is the president of Union School of Theology,
Doctor Reeves, thank you so much for blessing us this week.
Thank you for your work to train gospel workers and
pastors in hard places around the world, places where Voice
of the Martyrs is working. Thanks for being our guests
this week on VOME Radio.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Thank you so much. Wonderful to be with you.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
If you are just now joining us, you will want
to go to vomradio dot net and listen to this
in hire conversation with doctor Michael Reeves. We will also
give you a link there to the website of Union
School of Theology. Maybe you want to pursue some of
this training, some of these classes again our website vomradio
dot net and be back with us next week as
(24:47):
we continue to talk about what God is doing around
the world, especially in hostelarias and restricted nations, right here
on the Voice of the Martyrs Radio Network.
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