February 1, 2021 • 58 mins
Cheryl's best friend Leah Remini joins AJ, Cheryl, and Rene to tell them her truth about Scientology.
Leah has been very public about her experience but to hear her share her story with her close friends allows for a very different perspective. Now, she's helping us understand what her journey has really been like.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm pretty bad. Hey you guys, welcome to another episode
(00:21):
of Pretty Messed Up on I Heart Radio. Um, we
have an unbelievable guest on our show today. She is
become a new friend of mine. Um. She has known
Cheryl for quite some time and this will be your
first time meeting Renee. Uh. She is an amazing, amazing actress, activist,
(00:42):
amazing human being all the way around. She Yes, she
really is. Ladies and gentlemen, Miss Leah remedy there she is,
my book, my puppy. Oh, miss you. You know, even
with my glasses, I really can't see anybody. Um, Leah,
(01:04):
meet Renee. Welcome. Hi. My name's Ajee Beautiful and I
miss you too. You look beautiful as always. You're a
sweet angle. I have a new sweatshirt on it says
don't I thought it said country, but it does not
say says COULTI yeah, don't be CULTI the same. Leah
(01:29):
Lea was nice enough to get us member Pretty Messed
Up sweaters from the right before the premiere of the
last season. Is that where you got that? No, this
is from a company called represent and we actually use
the proceeds to give to the Foundation Scientology the Aftermath Foundation,
which helps people who want to leave Scientology and they
(01:49):
have no resources, so the money goes to that. I
want one. I will totally donate. Yeah. Yeah, I'm so excited.
Thank you? So hi, So how much to talk to
you about? Even though we spent the last two nights
together talking so it's not like that much. But making
your vision boards? Oh my god, don't gorge. Thanks, I
(02:12):
didn't sleep last night. Um, okay, what's new? Well, nothing really,
that's very normal for you. Yes, okay, So I'm just
going to read a passage from your book because I
think people need to understand, um, what fair Game is
and just what scientology is all about. Are you ready?
I'm gonna put my reading voice on. It's going to
(02:32):
be the same voice. Okay. So this is how Leah
starts her book. Let me start with this. I am
an apostate. I have lied, I have cheated. I have
done things in my life that I'm not proud of, including,
but not limited to, falling in love with a married
man nineteen years ago, being selfish and self centered, fighting
with virtually everyone I have ever known via hateful emails,
text and spoken words, physically threatening people from parking ticket
(02:55):
meter maids, to parents who hit their kids in public.
Not showing up at funerals of people I loved because
I don't deal well with death, being on occasion a
horrible daughter, mother, sister, aunt, stepmother, wife. This this list
goes on and on. So um that I start the
book Troublemaker in this way because I knew once I
(03:19):
left Scientology, which is a cult, uh and not a religion.
That's not my opinion, um. And I could explain more
if you guys want to know, because I don't. I'm not.
I don't shy away from like why And you know,
playing Devil's an advocate is fine. But I knew the
policies that would follow once I publicly spoke out against
(03:43):
the abuses that is that is is basically the teachings
of Scientology is abuse in itself. Um. And I knew
that they had a set of directives and policies called
fair Game, which means once you buy elate Scientology law
because they have their own laws, and those laws range
(04:05):
from speaking out publicly they actually categorized as high crimes. Um.
For that you no longer have any rights per Scientology.
They are allowed to post your sins, some true, some
that of context, some made up uh to to to
(04:28):
in an attempt to discredit you, so that people you
know won't listen to you, or won't hire you. Uh to,
reporting your rape to the police, to talk into government agencies.
These are all things categorized as high crimes for which
this fair game doctrine is executed and activated. And that
(04:52):
means so I just like briefly quote some of the policies,
some of the policies to that that just to find
that that that I don't know how they've justified it is,
but I'm quoting. Now, find out what the person seeks
to protect and go after it. And then it has
you know, family, friends, job, and then it says and
(05:16):
at the very least or this I'm not quoting, but
the words are used to utterly destroy the person. And
so I knew that scientology would call my folders, you know,
because I've been as I was a scientologist for thirty
five years. Every sin I've ever confessed has been written
down into a folder. So they what they do is
(05:36):
they go through those folders. They get a team of
employees and they go through every one of your folders
and they write down. Okay, she you know, admitted to masturbating,
or she admitted to getting to a fist fight with
her mother, whatever it was, right, And so they they
tried to use those things against you, And so I
knew that that would be that would happen, which there
(05:59):
are doing today after many years of my leaving um.
And so that is why I started the book that way.
And I also don't don't ever want people to think
that I have claimed or will ever claim that I'm
a perfect person. I'm a person coming out of a
mind controlling cults. You know, you could be in my cult,
(06:22):
you or you could have grown up extremely religious with
extremist ideas. It's all kind of the same banner. But
where mental health and mental well being is concerned, we
are raised to hate anybody who isn't us. We we
(06:43):
are raised to believe that, uh that police. The police
are bad, the AMA is bad, the apia is bad,
psychology is bad. Um. If anything has happened to you,
if if you were raped, molested as a child, if
you had a drug problem alcohol, all of this stems
(07:04):
from your own from your own causation, and you truly
believe all this. Not only did I believe it. I
promoted it right, and like I could never um if
you said you are depressed. There's no word depressed in scientology.
There's no word. They literally would laugh at you and go,
are you've been talking? And what they call log it's
(07:27):
a it's but actually it's a it's a it's a
racial slur in in some countries, but it is. The
word wog is used here as a degraded term for
anybody who isn't us right or subscribed to science alogy.
They would say things like are you using wog? Fucking
psych terms like they're against psychiatry because they actually are
(07:49):
in the field of mental health. They they rail against psychology,
They rail against a a the rail against like anything.
You're not even allowed to do spiritual yoga as a
set of colost So when you talk about children growing
up that way, thinking that anything that's happened to them
is their fault, and children are not allowed to say
(08:13):
that they're depressed or having dark thoughts, are not feeling
good about that. You learn to suppress who you really are,
and what is created is almost like a different person,
a different version of yourself, who is not compassionate to
the world at large, but most, and I think more important,
(08:36):
hateful and shameful about your true condition. What you know
is lying right beneath Sorry a J. No, I was
gonna say, well, first of all, Hi, I miss you.
You look fantastic. We're still going to have my dinner party.
It's still happening. We just oh my god, sorry, it's okay,
that's okay, Like he said, he sent me a few
(08:57):
texts like, you know, sorry to say that, but you know,
like everybody does have to be COVID, so you know,
AJ doesn't know this about me. But I was like no,
but I said, make sure it's this test and it's
not a fucking rapid test, and right, I want to
see results. And also, if they were honest with you,
whoever's gonna be there, We don't know if exactly you know,
(09:22):
a club somewhere or a club family event, well ship,
you know you keep seeing on the news shutting, trust me,
it's gonna be all. Yeah, So I have I have
to well, one is a statement and one is a question. First,
I'll start with the statement. So probably back in around
two thousand and two, two and three, I was at
(09:46):
Clive Davis's Grammy party. Well, myself and the rest of
my you know, band and I won't name names, but
I was talking to an athlete outside. I was having
a cigarette and he had mentioned to me scientology. At
the time time, I was living in Los Felis, right
down the street from the Mega Center of you know,
(10:07):
of science of scientology, and so I was cerious. You know,
I didn't know what it was. I didn't know anything
about it. So but I wanted to like not go alone.
So I took a friend with me. We went down there,
and we got a tour of the facility and they
brought us to this media room and they sat us
down and they said, would you mind watching the short film?
(10:29):
And we watched the short film. It was about fifteen
minutes long. And then I said, okay, well that was interesting,
and we went to leave and the door was locked.
They wouldn't let us out, and then they replayed the
same film again. We didn't get out of that room
for about fifteen minutes they played them, or no longer
than that. They played it three times until somebody heard
(10:51):
me knocking, like hello, and so that freaked me out
because I'm like, okay, this seems like a brainwashing type technique.
This doesn't seemed normal to me. So I got close,
but I never would have because again, you know, I'm
I'm a very spiritual person. That's how I've been raised,
That's how I've been living. My life is more on
(11:12):
spirituality than actual organized religion. But my my question for
you is, well, this isn't this isn't Well yeah, yes exactly.
But my my question you is, thirty five years ago,
what what was the draw for you? What what brought
you in? I was a child that had no choice,
(11:34):
brought in as a child. Um and like I said,
the study of scientology. What they demand us two and
a half hours a day minimum, seven days a week.
So this is not a faith based like you can
go in when you know, no, no priest is knocking
on your door asking you why then are you not
on course? Like that's what they say, Like you need
(11:54):
to be on course, so you need you know, they
have these little courses and you and and also the
other thing that I want to bring up is that
scientology as a priceless you're not allowed to just these
are going in just to they don't believe in God,
even though they sell the idea that you could be
a Catholic Scientologist, a Christian site like they sell that nonsense.
(12:17):
Now just on a technical point to receive tax exemption,
which Scientology is unique in that it has right like
as opposed to like other cults who are have been
taken down because they don't have tax exemption, they're not
recognized as a religion. Uh it you have to say
(12:37):
to to the I R S, to the Commission that
you only believe in one thing, right to be seen
as a tax exempt organization when you're calling yourself religion.
So Catholics will say, we believe in our scripture, right,
we don't believe we're we don't have take from other places,
(12:58):
like we believe in God, we believe and saints, you know,
Christians believe in you know, I mean like they have
to say, this is what we believe in independent of
any other religious philosophies or ideologies. So you have to
only believe what you believe what you're saying you believe.
So they had to say the truth, which is, we
(13:19):
do only believe in Scientology, we don't believe in other faiths, right,
so that that they will be recognized as their own religion.
But then they separately sell that you can be a
Christian and a scientologist. Well, so the I R S
knows what they've done. I just assume, because not enough
(13:39):
people are speaking out that there hasn't been enough pressure
applied to the investigation, to the criminal investigation department of
the I R S. Um So, but rewind us for
a second. So your your mom got you. My mom
got me into scientology and my family and I was
very young, and like I said, because the indoctrination starts
(14:02):
very early, and it's very rigorous, two and a half
hours a day of studying your self brainwashing. So you
believe that the world at law is evil, you believe
that you have the only answers to mankind's uh, your
your mankind savior. It's an extreme She she showed me
her sorry, she showed me her book that she was,
(14:24):
like all these books that she basically that Leah has
in her garage of scientology and it's yeah, this is
required reading. And I test you, and yes, you're tested.
You're supervised. Like you're sitting in a room with other
people doing their scientology studies and there's somebody walking around
the room. If you sneeze, if you call off, they
(14:45):
say get up, get your pack that you're reading, and
come into the other room. You're not allowed to yawn.
They'll make you look up every word you don't understand.
It's really unique in its abuse and how they get
the information in there. So if you could imagine, you guys,
two and a half hours a day required reading, it's
(15:05):
a preset priceless. You have to read. You have to
read what they want you to read. And on the
counseling side of science. And by the way, this all
cost about minimum three hundred thousand. And over time, you
start to dehumanize everybody that isn't you. Like I said,
you grow up to be almost like I could. Only
(15:29):
the only analogy I can make is a Nazi youth,
like there's just no you have no compassion for anybody
that isn't you, And you believe that if you leave,
your eternity is at stake. Right. They believe in future lives.
They believe you've lived many lives before and you'll live
(15:49):
many lives after, which is where the child abuse starts
very early, because they tell you that you're not a child.
They tell you you're an old soul in a big body.
You know you're an old soul in a little body.
I just want to do say I had a chance
to talk to Leah, so I want to get in there. Welcome,
Welcome to our podcast. Um we it started. Our podcast
(16:15):
started because each one of us flamed out in life
at some point and had to piece our life back
together a little bit at a time. And one of
our mantras is we made a mistake, but we're not
a mistake, right. So I wanted to a couple of
points that I wanted to make is one, I understand
(16:35):
why you got out in front of them in your book,
but because they'll try to destroy you and saying, well,
you can't destroy me if I put it out there,
this is I'm not claiming to be this, this or
this right. So for me, oddly enough though, that kind
of transparency is where I found my personal freedom. Right.
(16:56):
Part of my journey and a j's journey, has been
looking in word, being able to accept the mistakes we've made,
being able to not claim that we're saint and say
this is me. I made mistakes, but I'm not a mistake.
So so it seems to me that by getting out
in front of the story is also perfect for you too.
(17:16):
Because you don't have to pretend to be something you're
not right, And that's where the personal freedom comes in. Yes,
you're absolutely right. That's that's like step one. But step
two is also acknowledging um that you have been a
victim trauma, which is the work that I'm doing now right,
trauma work and working with my therapist and accepting the
(17:43):
fact that we are not perfect and unless we deal
with our trauma, we all have trauma. We think of
trauma as you know, big horrible, horrific events like being raped,
and you know, horrible crimes are committed against people every day,
but there are very there's many, many categories of trauma
(18:06):
in our lives. And I mean I was reading the
other day just yelling at your child could be a
traumatic event for that child. And you know, well I
fear from the East Coast. That's like that's good nuts
and mean look yelling I yell at Christmas dinner, Like
that's the way I show my love. But when we
when we like doing like I'm reading parenting books. You know,
(18:28):
as old as I am, I'm still wanting to evolve
and learn, And victim is literally a curse word in scientology,
there's a saying that if you call yourself a victim,
you are incapable, and we'd rather have you dead than incapable.
So dealing with people who were raised with that mentality,
(18:51):
fathers or mothers or caretakers saying things like get up,
stop crying, come on, who get like, just brush yourself off,
and you're not. You should have worked harder at that,
you should have been better at that, you should have
made more money, shouldn't you know? All these things should
have gotten in a All of these things from our
(19:11):
primary caretaker do do really cut you to your core?
And until you deal with that, you're not going to heal.
So it's something that's not perfect. But we all need
to be working on the trauma in our lives, even
if you think you haven't had trauma. I I recommend
(19:35):
um waking the tiger, healing the trauma, the betrayal bonds.
We were talking about Renee Brown. You know, I have
a whole list of books that I've been parenting from
the inside out. When I heard the examples in the book,
I was like, holy you on top of scientology, Like
I never she literally said to me. She my therapist
(19:57):
once said to me could you imagine like just growing
up in an unconditional love household? She goes, can you
just take a moment to think about growing up in
the context of the book Parenting from the Inside Out?
And I sat there and said, okay, let me Thank
(20:19):
god we're on the phone, because I was like looking
at my nails. I was like, I was you know,
she said, you know, at a certain point, she went,
did you did you get there? And I don't know,
it's a in foreign con I don't even know what
that means, Like I actually don't know what that. I
can't even imagine just getting unconditional love from a caretaker.
(20:39):
Now imagine Scientology was my primary caretaker, as well as
every child who was raised in Scientology and as employees,
our parents just sent us there like they'll take care
of you. But I couldn't even imagine, even with the
time that I have with my mom, the concept of
unconditional love, of failing at something. Her going, You're an
(21:01):
amazing person. You did your best, you know what I mean?
Like this is the stuff that I feel like it's
really big, a big part of our healing. I love
that you love that you talked about these I won't
call them covert traumas, but things that I like you.
I used to think traumas were the big ticket items, right,
only that, And then you start to realize that there's
(21:25):
a lot of other traumas that you don't realize how
profoundly affected you were. Like, for example, you know, and
my mom doesn't listen to this podcast God. Yeah, but
you know, she grew up old school Catholic in a
very sort of condemning God. And I didn't make my
(21:46):
first communion and she always told me I'm going straight
to hell. She just said that. And I said, well,
but what if I do charitable things? She says, it
doesn't matter, You're going straight to hell. And then when
when she'd be mad at me, she'd call me Judas, right,
and it's it's like, for for a long time, I
thought it was funny, but then I realized, holy shit,
(22:06):
that's a hell of a thing to call a kid
the worst person to ever live, right, And so I
had to work through that stuff, you know, And and
without working to that stuff, I was tied to my past.
I was not going to live a life where I
felt I was good enough, you know. And so I'm
glad that you mentioned that about these other traumas that
(22:28):
are not the ones that everyone else you know, getting
hit by a car, right, which are huge traumas, But
a lot of this covert stuff that happens. God bless
my parents. They only did what they were taught, right, Well,
that's what they say. It hurt people hurt, right, that's
what they But you know, it's what I'm telling my
mother now, you know, I told her, I think you
(22:49):
should read this parenting book. And she's like, are you
kidding me? Lee? I'm like almost dead, what are you
talking about? Like, you know, and I have the mentality
of fifty like what can I really change? Right? Like
this has been me all my life? Right, But you know,
if if we all thought that way, we just would
never learn, we would never evolve. And I said, because
you know, you're with my daughter, you know, like you're
(23:11):
a grandparent, and I don't want you doing the things,
are saying things that you think are funny because my
daughter is quick as like, so you you think that
you know she can handle this or that's not going
to be hurtful. And I said, and I just I'm
just not going to have you doing that to my daughter.
You know, I just as her parents, if you can't
(23:33):
subscribe to the way that I that I want to
raise her, which is in this unconditional love way. And
don't get me wrong, unconditional love doesn't mean me not
saying to her, Hey, do you think I work for you?
Because I don't. So you put your freaking dish in
the damn dishwasher. I don't want to give anybody the
(23:53):
idea that that thinking in these terms is you're running
a around like you know, flower power person. You're not
like love bombing everybody. But it's very poignant things that children.
We often do to our children, right, because that's what
(24:13):
we know. So that's why I'm pushing my mother to
read the book, and I'm reading the book and I'm
trying to apply those principles to my life because teaching,
teaching responsibilities, and teaching morality in our children today is
absolute key. Listen, we gotta take a quick break and
when we come back, more from my crush. And I'll
(24:35):
say it to her face right now, still my crush really?
Oh yeah, Okay, we'll come back to that. We'll pick
pick up right from there from there, Yes, after this, Hey,
(25:01):
you guys, we're back and uh we're here with the
amazing Leah Remini and uh Leah, how's uh, how's your
better half doing? How's that? How's that handsome devil? Oh
he's great, honey, thank you. He's you know, listen, and
he's learning all this ship too, you know, because he's
old school. He's like, what what do you mean not
yell at Sophia when she's being an asshole? You know,
(25:23):
I mean, I'm like, yeah, we got But it's funny
how you mentioned East Coast because you know, I'm I'm
also East Coast. And it's interesting because that's how I
was raised, was you know, like not necessarily yelling, but
it was more disciplinary from my parents, mainly my grandfather
because my parents were split up when I was really young,
(25:44):
so my grandfather kind of was the masculine you know,
symbol in my life. And oh yeah, I mean I
I never got hit as a child. I'm not a
I'm not a hitter, like I'll never strike my kid.
But you could say things in a certain tone that
registered it's disappointment. It's it's you know, uh, degrading like
(26:08):
we were talking about earlier, right, like thinking to call
you ju this is or to think that you know,
you're you were damned to hell no matter what your character,
these are things that are very damaging. Oh absolutely. I
mean you talk about traumas and things like, you know,
my family and I had to be out of our
home for nine months because of the Wolvesy fire and
(26:29):
the Wolvesy fires to this day is still in the
back of both of my both my kids minds, like
they won't sleep in separate beds, they won't close their
doors still anymore, and it's, you know, it's it's still
affected them. So like when there was a fire a
couple of weeks ago, two and a half miles from
my house, they were in full on panic mode even
(26:50):
though they you know, now there's more preparation here with
the fire department. People know. But what I wanted to
ask you, you know, because you because you brought up
your you know um and she's the one that got
you into this, is she still active? Number one? And
number two? Like, what is the relationship now between you
and her that you've removed yourself and you're speaking so
(27:12):
openly about the truth. Well, she just so you know,
you're not allowed to talk to people who who uh
publicly leave scientology, so I couldn't know my mother if
she chose to stay in which a lot of people do.
So they also have a policy of disconnection. You're not
allowed to talk to your own son or daughter who
(27:33):
reported they're a crime committed against them. Uh. They force
you to disconnect from your own children, like I said,
and then they create hate websites and they make your parents,
your sons and daughters, uh, say horrible things about you
and attempt to discredit you. So there would be no
relationship if she didn't leave with me. I mean, how
(27:54):
long was that process for you? Six years? It took
me six years to leave, six years to totally come
completely be done out free, Leah. That separation is sort
of standard issue for cults, right, isn't that one of
the main tools the cults use. Yes, it separate you
from anyone that might disagree or taint your brain with
(28:18):
doubt or anything like that. Right, Yes, as well as
this dehumanization that we're talking about, where they make the
other side, who's the enemy not human? Right, so that
you it justifies your behavior towards them. Right, So if
you're destroying them, it doesn't matter because they're not. They're subhuman.
(28:38):
So yes, that is part of the you know, it's
important parcel to how cults set themselves up. Of course
they start with the love bomb and the a j
of course, come in, we're gonna give you a tour.
We're gonna serve you coffee on a tray, and here
are the courses that we have and they're only thirty
five dollars and you know, but that is all part
(29:00):
of the game, right right, I mean you you have
to you're to be friends with somebody for ten twenty
years before you even bring it up. That's all part
of the game. Never allowed the lure, Yeah, exactly, that's
the lure. You're you're you're throwing it in the water,
waiting for for you know, a fish to bite, and
(29:21):
it's you know, and then you are that. But but
that's the thing. You're the fish. You don't realize that
you're the fish. And if you bite, you know, Yeah,
it's it amazes me. Yeah. Well, I did want to
just briefly touch on unconditional love because you had mentioned
that and and I agree, I think it people have
(29:43):
a misconception of what unconditional love is. It means I
could be stern with my daughter, right, and but let
her know I love you like you made a mistake.
But I'm not saying I don't love you anymore. Right,
you cannot stop being a teacher. Some people think unconditional
(30:03):
love means, oh, you want and I'm not yes, and
I'm not going to stop you. That's not what unconditional
love is in my opinion. Do you know, it's just
you love them no matter even when they make mistakes,
and you let them know I love you no matter what, yes,
or you know, or or even things like overreacting to
(30:26):
a child's winning at a game or being able to
do it sends a message, a subliminal message that you
get this huge reaction from me when you're number one,
You've got this huge reaction from me when you're the best.
As opposed to that kind of love should be a
(30:46):
steady go, right, I mean it should should be constant,
right whether or not you won that game or you
were the best of this. Doesn't you know my love
for you is any miss just on a daily like
I've just started practicing that with my own daughter, where
every day I just in conversation, I go, I love
(31:09):
the way you think I love how funny you are.
I love that you got through today. You know, I
know how hard today was, you know for you just
in general, and how hard it's been for you as
you know, being a child in a pandemic. You know, like,
so it's it's that kind of thing. I was actually
going to switch back to programming, you know how how
(31:30):
you were programmed from you know, you never even made
a choice. You were just brought up the way people
are brought up. Catholic people are brought up, and I
was so I wouldn't say that we were We were
brought up in the way that Catholics are not taught
to hate their fellow man. And we were not taught
any kind of charitable We were not thinking, we were
(31:53):
not involved in any out teach or belief in God.
We were not. We were raised to hate people. Yeah,
I don't. I don't mean to compare the two. What
I meant was, you never consciously made a decision I'm
going to join scientology. It was made for you, right.
I was only comparing those two in that way. Uh.
(32:14):
And I constantly think about how society programs us to
think other things that, let's say, not cold tish, But
I know I've I've realized that, like all the I'm
a songwriter and a director, and a lot of this
stuff I've written is so codependent. Movies are codependent, right,
songs are codependent. I would die without you, uh, you know,
(32:37):
I can't breathe without you. And we're taught that you
want to be happy, get that car, And then you
get that car and you realize you were excited to
get the car, it wasn't making you happy, right, So
it's like we've it's almost like society conditioned me to
think that if I wanted to be happy, I needed
(32:58):
a Y, you know, a B or C. Right. So
I've had two deprogram through help those feelings that I'm
only good enough if I know so and so, or
if I'm married to so and so, or if I
do this, this or this. And it turns out that
right that there's a big difference between excitement and happiness. Now, listen,
(33:23):
I am all four people wanting things and getting the
beautiful house that they dreamed of and getting the beautiful car,
Like two things can exist at the same time. You
could want those things and have those things and be
joyful and happy that you've achieved it. You know, like
that's one thing I could say about my mom. Like
(33:44):
I used to say, you know, we couldn't even we
didn't even have food in the house or our heart
water was turned off. And I was like, I want
a big Cadillac. You know, for people like back in
the day, this was the car to half. I'm not
saying Mercedes because that wasn't even a thing in my neighborhood,
you know, like it was a Cadillac. If you didn't
(34:05):
have a Cadillac, you were just not anything. So and
she'd go, then get it, Leah, I want you to
get it. I want you to have that Cadillac. And
then as I got older, I was like, I want
a big house. She was like, then damn it worked
for it. Get it. And you can also understand that
you can have those things, but those things do bring
(34:25):
you happiness, right. Money brings you security, and that gives
you happiness, and you're able to provide for your family
and make great memories with your family with or without it.
But at the same time, sometimes it could be discouraging
because you think that is your key to happiness, and
then you realize you actually never dealt with a little
(34:47):
boy or girl who was hurt, who never felt good
enough because you grew up a certain way like I did,
where I didn't have much and felt judged and not
right and I isn't like part of the right crowd.
And I still feel like that today. You know, when
I was accepting the Emmy, you know it's on the
Emmy stage. You know, I thought, one day I'll feel
(35:09):
like I belong in this business, like I'm accepted by
this business, and even up there, I was like, but
I'm not. You know, am I still But am I
really accepted in the Hollywood you know crowd? Or am
I I still feel like I'm on the outside not
still that poor girl that people are judging and looking
at my sneakers and saying they're not like new or
(35:32):
why do you have laces that look like that? Or
what you know what I mean. So it's like, if
I don't heal that stuff, none of it means like
outside resources, like yeah, you have to be find that
thing in yourself that you feel you have gotten to
a place where you can fully accept yourself with every
flaw that you have, because none of us are not.
(35:56):
Don't give up how many podcasts we listen to, how
many books we read, how many counseling sessions we have,
we are never going to be perfect. And when we
accept that that would never gonna be and stop beating
ourselves up for those things and giving ourselves labels and
all of that, Like we just need to accept that.
(36:19):
But anyway, go ahead, Cheryl. Sorry, So you know, just
the whole scientology way of thinking, right, Like, they didn't
promote any of self love or any of any type
of confidence. They wanted just to bash you and wanted
you to feel like you were dependent on them in
a way. Um, is that right? Well? Yes, like I said,
it's it's because it's a study of two and a
(36:41):
half hours a day and the concepts are everything that
happened to you is bad. If you say you're you
were molested by a scientologist, uh, they would then put
you on their lie detector and ask you in what
other life you have molested a child? Right? And what
did you do? And it's we're not concerned with what
(37:03):
happened to you, but what did you do? Because you
won't fully recover from this unless you figure out that
it was your responsibility. So that's that's just part and
parcel to say you're never allowed to like hugging somebody
if somebody died, and like, I'm so sorry that your
lust you They're like, are you kidding me? Like we
(37:23):
don't believe in like that, like the mother is already
off getting another body, like get the like these are
the words they use, extremely abusive. I don't are you
you groom to accept this kind of abuse? But you
also work to be an abuser. I had to work
do that ship. I mean I would when you when
you started dancing with the stars with a weird transition
(37:46):
for you, like to have to because you left the
church and went straight to dancing with the stars. Is
that right, right? Yes? So like having to have to
interact with um non scientologists and all of a sudden
kind of showcasing maybe you're life but more trying to
learn how to ball room dance. Did you find the
transition to be um? Like, how are people reacting to you?
(38:07):
Because I'm sure you still had, you know, the same
type of mannerisms maybe you had in the Church of Science.
I still do. I mean I still have to call
my therapist and say is this abusive? And she's like yep,
And I'm like, uh, you know, like, that's not norm
want to talk to you know, it's it's or to
say these things in anger, like what the funk? You know?
(38:29):
It's it's it's it's still learning. I mean, I'm out
what seventy year? I don't even know, but yeah, what
I did dancing with the stars, I was felt liberated.
But also imagine losing all of your friends and community
and you're basically your mother and father because they were
your primary caretakers, right. Everybody in scientology represented a mother
(38:50):
or father to me. So losing all of that in
what overnight of thirty five years? So I felt like
I was part of this enemy walk group. And then
I'm drinking and carrying on, you know, and I'm like
I'm everything that I'm not supposed to be. But yet
I don't hate people. I don't. I'm not judging people
(39:12):
when I'm talking to them, going, well, they just need scientology.
I mean, if I knew you as a scientologist, Cheryl,
all I would be thinking about or age like, all
I'd be thinking about you, guys, is how how I
can help you? How I can turn away from the
bullshit you're doing and bring you into scientology. And it
might take five years of me never saying anything bad
(39:34):
about me, never saying anything bad about that therapy you're doing,
just pretending to hear you and be your friends. But
eventually I'd say, you know, I have something that can
help you, um, because I never really had a chance you.
You know, when I was doing Dance with the Stars,
you and I had some great conversations because you had
(39:55):
done the show, um, and you had a lot of insight,
and you know, I you and I had a lot
of conversations about me kind of battling myself and my
insecurities of like can I do this? Can I not
do this? And I just want to say to you
thank you because you really were such a blessing. Um.
(40:15):
You know, being introduced to you through Cheryl really did
help me. Both of you guys were fantastic. I mean,
Cheryl and I are going to be friends for the
rest of our days. But but no, but I just
wanted to say thank you too. You were such a great, um, yeah,
(40:38):
mentor figure to me and just kind of just just
a great shoulder to kind of lean on. And I
just want to say thank you for that because you
really did help me kind of get over get over
my fear. You know, people would think, why would you
be afraid? You do this for a living? No, I
don't that. I want to say thank you because look,
(40:59):
if you were still active in what you were doing,
that would never have happened. I would never have met you,
the relationship would never have grown. I wouldn't have gotten
the insight that I did from a loving, caring, compassionate individual,
non judgmental individual that you are today that you may
not have been seven or eight years ago. You know
(41:20):
what I'm saying, thank you, Yes, thank you. I'm going
to have to ask you this question that everybody wants
to know. I just want to respond to a j
RELI fast because I want to. I want to say
something back to you. You being you being vulnerable right
you were You were brave enough to be vulnerable with
somebody who didn't know, and you said, I am you know?
(41:43):
Should I don't know if I could do this? Yes,
I sell out studios, yes you know, but this is
just me without my boys that like, this is me
raw and I'm feeling all kinds of things and I
don't take that lightly. When people tell me I'm a afraid,
I I almost burst into cheers. Because that meant that
(42:04):
they trust me enough to be vulnerable. I also feel
that way when people are mad at me, when they
yell at me and go you whatever, because I feel like, oh,
they trust that our relationship is gonna stay intact, like
they they know that I love them, and I'm gonna
like we're gonna be frendsy after this. Like I'm actually
touched when people tell me how they really feel, because
(42:27):
it it means you trust me. But but more so
the compliment back to you that you are able in
your life to be the man that is vulnerable and
allows that to be shown, and that for you to communicate,
that says a lot about who you are. And so
you you gave me that compliment by giving me all
of that. Indeed, Yeah, sorry, go ahead. What's the big question, Cheryl?
(42:52):
I mean the question that everyone has, including yourself. Where
the hell Shelly Muscavenge, Well, for people who don't know
Shelly Muscavige, just the leader of Scientology's wife. She has
not been seen in public, I think now for twelve years.
I don't have the answer. I have filed a police
report to missing person's report. The detective who was in
(43:13):
charge of the case was at Scientology speaking events at
the place that you went to, a j celebrity center.
So I don't think that he was really the most
trustworthy source. As well, the Hollywood Police Division of the
l a p D. They go to Scientology events down
the street constantly. UM, the captain their Polka, who, thank god,
(43:34):
is not there anymore. They were just buddy buddy with Scientology,
and so I didn't get any answers. He basically told
me that she's fine and doesn't want to be found.
I said, but where did you see her? Did you
actually see her with your own two eyes? Was she
with a Scientology handler? What? What? What location was she at?
(43:55):
Give me something from the one to file the police
report and he said, if you want to know any information,
you'll have to file through the Public Information Act, which
I did. Uh. Then had to hire a lawyer, which
I spent a nice chunk of money trying to get further.
And basically we went to the end and the lawyer said,
I'm gonna need a hundred thousand dollars retainers or to
move for further. Uh, it might be better if you
(44:17):
get a family member to to to pursue this. Um.
I did the family member is in fear if her
sister is alive. She knows that if she does file
a welfare check on her sister, that her sister will
never call her if she is alive, and okay, because
she'll be on the list of enemy. Um all all
(44:40):
calls in or out of the place that has been
rumored she is. You can't pick up the phone, call
nine one one. Um, what do you think she would
even leave? Would she leave? If that's the other thing?
I I if she is alive, I pray that she is.
You know, there's the prison of belief, and so we'd
have to work through through that. But even getting to her,
(45:01):
there's no door to knock on. There's a trespass on
property even but there's no where to there's no where
to to go. There's no where to actually try to
find somebody. She if she is alive, she's being held.
She's watched twenty four hours a day, seven days a week.
She cannot come and go. She doesn't have a cell phone.
(45:21):
So this is just not so that's so that's the answer.
But also, guys, being that we're in the same family,
you know, we do a podcast called fair Game, and
we discussed this every week. We just we take people's questions,
but we also have guests on and we cover the
activities a fair game that's happened. It's not a thing
of the past. It happens every day to me. Two
(45:44):
victims that have current cases going with the l a
d s Office here, Uh, these these brave women survivors. Um.
Every day they have p I s at their house.
They have of people who were mentally unstable, who failed
scientology is you know, drug programs that don't work, and
(46:04):
they unleash these people onto us and to our property. Um.
And this is what's been happening since the day they
found police reports. So I'm just so proud of you,
Like I'm really proud of you for having the balls
to do all of this and to really just put
your own life at risk, I guess you can say,
(46:25):
but not really. I just feel like you're just speaking
up for all, you know, the people that have been
a part of the church that can't speak up for themselves.
And I think what you're doing is is such an amazing,
such amazing work, you know, and um, it's and thank
you to you guys, because you give me a voice
for them. Right, like we're now I'm talking on your podcast.
(46:45):
You guys had me on and you're supporting me, and
Cheryl your public about your support of me, which you
know for scientology that you're picking the side of right,
and so you two would be proud of their gamed um,
and so you are putting herself at risk and you know,
listen for me, you know, I'm well prepared and my
(47:06):
husband's well prepared to protect my home and my daughter
and our household. But for people who are not prepared
for that, the psychological damage to what they're doing to
already traumatized victims should be a crime. Um. But I
think that when you're when you're on the side of right, eventually, uh,
(47:28):
you know, dark becomes light. Like I'm just educating everybody.
You're educating everybody through your experience. So thank you, thank you.
I wanted to also throw in my admiration because I
do know a little bit about scientology. I used to
be married to an entertainer. They also try to recruit us,
(47:49):
um and when they she had a boyfriend. When they
broke up, he lived with me for a month and
his scientologist and my feeling and understanding of scientology was
don't ever turn on them because you'll be done kind
of like the mafia, kind of like you know, taking
(48:11):
I always I try not to insult the mafia because
they do have morals and they do respect family, and
let's insult the mafia, right, But we do know don't
don't turn on the mafia. We do know that, right,
more and moralistic. But anyways, I just wanted to say that, like,
like what Cheryl just said, the hood spa to take
(48:34):
on this monolith that everyone is afraid of. So I
also admire the fact that you would be willing to
do that, especially given that you were indoctrinated, had to
fight that off and then somehow get the internal sort
of power and forced to then take on the monolith.
That's huge. So congratulations for that. Yeah, I didn't know
(48:56):
you were such an You were such an amazing game show.
How By the way, I just saw your I saw
one episode just now when I was getting ready for
this podcast. I was so shocked. You guys, Lea was
trying to teach me in my family, Rummy cup. I'm
telling you, she's a different person when went on television
than you are in person. That's all I'm gonna say, okay,
(49:18):
so listen, Leah before we because unfortunately we have to
wrap things up. But before we do, um, can you
tell people out there that may not know about People
Puzzler and let them know what this is before we
let go. So the People Puzzlers, the crossword game, the
crossword Puzzle, and People Magazine, right, you know, it's pop
culture and fun facts and game show Network got together
(49:41):
and it's called the People Puzzler. I'm hosting it. It's
it's an amazing little gift or like it came. Probably
not the best wait time for me because like everybody else,
I was just acting like you know, I was never
gonna eat again every meal, um since mark uh so
I threw on you know, ten pairs of spanks. But
(50:04):
it was at a time that I really needed to
connect with people and laugh with people. And every time
because only one person, well two people win. One wins
a thousand dollars and the other wins a ten but
if the one person every time the person left, like
was walking out the stage, I was like, sorry, Mary,
you know you want a pen or you know, looking
(50:24):
for like water. I felt so every time. So we
did sixty five shows, right, like six shows a day.
Every single time I said, oh, sorry, thank you for coming,
every single person was like, are you kidding me? At
the best time? Are you kidding me? That's the first
time I laughed today? Are you kidding me? Like I
got to get out of the house and be with
people and laugh and just get away from it all
(50:46):
for a couple of hours. And so that's why I'm
so grateful, like to do the podcast that I do
with Mike, and then to have the people Puzzler working
on other projects that I that are close to my heart,
some comedies, some are just things that I thought I
was doing in scientology that I wasn't doing. And you know,
(51:06):
I'm just looking into the areas now that you know,
I feel like for the first time, like I'm really
becoming the person that I wanted to be, and I
want to do those things that you know I will
later be proud of myself for and that you know
that it's not just scientology, you know what I mean,
It's not just scientology yet. I just want to plant
one last seed. I want to plant one last seed
(51:29):
before we let you go. So obviously everyone knows you
from the King of Queens, but I just want to
plant the seed. So new show, Queen of New York.
I play your younger annoying brother, go perfect, love it.
I love it. Thank you so much, thank you, thank you. Hey,
(51:49):
I love and thank you guys. You were very gracious
and so loving to me. Probably unwarranted, but I really
thank you for all the love. Thank you. Yes, love
you so much. Thank you. And uh, I'll hit you
up about that dinner party. We're all gonna have it.
It's coming. I'm making another lasagna. Oh god, yes, yes, please,
(52:09):
thank you all right you guys. So, uh, it's that
time during the podcast where we like to read your
(52:32):
emails and as always, thank you guys for sending us
emails and amazing questions. Um, and thank you guys for
hitting that subscribe button and giving us five stars. Uh.
So this question is from Danetta. What Backstreet Boys song
would you say best reflects how you feel about your
sobriety and recovery and why whoa okay? Um you know yeah,
(53:00):
actually's back night. Um, one time you would have loved
to have gotten advanced question? Oh yeah, no, no, for sure. Um,
you know it's it's kind of a tie. Um, there's
a song called Siberia, UM, which you know, in my
opinion was was was hands down one of our best,
(53:20):
our best records. It should have been a single, it
never was. UM, sadly, but when you think of Siberia,
in my mind, you think of just like beauty, but
also like very alone. That to me is kind of
what I felt when I was in my disease. Actively.
I was just kind of in this you know, huge
(53:41):
open space of being by myself. But then on the
flip side, UM, a song called Showing what You're made Of,
which was written by myself and my bandmate Kevin. It
was actually written about all of our kids, UM, and
the inspiration that they are to to to each of
us and in my recovery today. My kids are a
(54:05):
massive part of my sobriety. UM. You know, they inspire
me daily. They drive me to want to continue to
be a better father, a better person, UM, and to
hopefully continue to set a good example for both my girls. UM.
I've just had to live life on life's terms. And look,
(54:27):
you know, if God forbid, either one of my girls
turns out to be an alcoholic or an addict, God
forbid it does happen. Um. The longer that I stay sober,
I think the more support and knowledge I can bring
to the table at that point. Um. And obviously the
doors of A A and and any at all programs
(54:51):
of recovery would be open to my to my girls obviously,
but you know, music in general, to button it up,
Music in general is a big part of my recovery.
If there was no music, I think more than half
of this entire globe would be depressed. Yes, that is true. Yes,
(55:13):
speaking of songs, a J. One one day we were
in the studio and A J played for me a
lot of songs that never even made it on the album.
And what really tripped me out, aside from them being insane,
is he knew the lyrics to all those songs. I'm like,
how could your brain remember all the ones that were
(55:36):
released publicly, all the B sides? You know, It's like
how we do choreography, Renee, But like you know you,
it kind of gets instilled. I guess maybe you know.
I don't even listen to lyrics. That's how crazy it
is for me. When I listened to the song, I
listened to the rhythm and not the lyrics. You and I,
both you and I both. I swear to use some
of the most famous songs. The lyrics I thought that
(55:57):
they were were not even and then on the opposite
being being a musician, Yes, I do listen to the
to the music obviously, but the lyrical content and the
melody is what is what drives me. My friends think
it's weird because I'm a lyricist, right, so you would
think I would be listening to lyrics, but I don't.
(56:18):
I think my dancer takes over totally. Can I do
a run back to this exactly? And you feel the
rhythms coming and you, even if you've never heard a song,
you could tell when the changes coming. Yes, yes, the
next like the next verse, or like the arrangement of this.
So I I also want to give one one more
quick shout out to an amazing fan. She goes by
(56:42):
s J, but Sarah is her name. Thank you so much,
Sarah for sending us these custom made, pretty messed up cups.
I was like when she said, m how come I
didn't know she sent three? Here? I gotta get you yours.
You guys, here's the thing. You guys are the smart ones,
(57:04):
and I'm the one giving up my home address. I
know I was gonna say, I'm going to give him
to Renee, and I'm like, oh, you know, you might
want to thank no I honestly, I'm sure you've been
in touch with her. I'm in touch with her over
Instagram and honestly, like she's just such a cool person. Yeah.
(57:26):
I mean so, I'm like that would have been perfect
Christmas gifts. I'm so, I'm like, I didn't even think
of it. I was such a great idea, great idea.
Thank you so much, Sarah. Well listen, listen everybody out there. Um,
you know, thank you guys for tuning in. We want
to thank our amazing guest, Leah Remedy. She is freaking
She is like my new big sister. Uh love you, darling.
(57:47):
Thank you so much for blessing us with your presence.
We love you and you guys. Stay tuned for our
next episode here on iHeart Radio, Pretty Messed Up, Stay,
stay classy, stay see Santiago exactly. Follow Pretty Messed Up
on I Heart Radio, or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.
I'm pretty bad. Hey you guys, welcome to another episode
(00:21):
of Pretty Messed Up on I Heart Radio. Um, we
have an unbelievable guest on our show today. She is
become a new friend of mine. Um. She has known
Cheryl for quite some time and this will be your
first time meeting Renee. Uh. She is an amazing, amazing actress, activist,
(00:42):
amazing human being all the way around. She Yes, she
really is. Ladies and gentlemen, Miss Leah remedy there she is,
my book, my puppy. Oh, miss you. You know, even
with my glasses, I really can't see anybody. Um, Leah,
(01:04):
meet Renee. Welcome. Hi. My name's Ajee Beautiful and I
miss you too. You look beautiful as always. You're a
sweet angle. I have a new sweatshirt on it says
don't I thought it said country, but it does not
say says COULTI yeah, don't be CULTI the same. Leah
(01:29):
Lea was nice enough to get us member Pretty Messed
Up sweaters from the right before the premiere of the
last season. Is that where you got that? No, this
is from a company called represent and we actually use
the proceeds to give to the Foundation Scientology the Aftermath Foundation,
which helps people who want to leave Scientology and they
(01:49):
have no resources, so the money goes to that. I
want one. I will totally donate. Yeah. Yeah, I'm so excited.
Thank you? So hi, So how much to talk to
you about? Even though we spent the last two nights
together talking so it's not like that much. But making
your vision boards? Oh my god, don't gorge. Thanks, I
(02:12):
didn't sleep last night. Um, okay, what's new? Well, nothing really,
that's very normal for you. Yes, okay, So I'm just
going to read a passage from your book because I
think people need to understand, um, what fair Game is
and just what scientology is all about. Are you ready?
I'm gonna put my reading voice on. It's going to
(02:32):
be the same voice. Okay. So this is how Leah
starts her book. Let me start with this. I am
an apostate. I have lied, I have cheated. I have
done things in my life that I'm not proud of, including,
but not limited to, falling in love with a married
man nineteen years ago, being selfish and self centered, fighting
with virtually everyone I have ever known via hateful emails,
text and spoken words, physically threatening people from parking ticket
(02:55):
meter maids, to parents who hit their kids in public.
Not showing up at funerals of people I loved because
I don't deal well with death, being on occasion a
horrible daughter, mother, sister, aunt, stepmother, wife. This this list
goes on and on. So um that I start the
book Troublemaker in this way because I knew once I
(03:19):
left Scientology, which is a cult, uh and not a religion.
That's not my opinion, um. And I could explain more
if you guys want to know, because I don't. I'm not.
I don't shy away from like why And you know,
playing Devil's an advocate is fine. But I knew the
policies that would follow once I publicly spoke out against
(03:43):
the abuses that is that is is basically the teachings
of Scientology is abuse in itself. Um. And I knew
that they had a set of directives and policies called
fair Game, which means once you buy elate Scientology law
because they have their own laws, and those laws range
(04:05):
from speaking out publicly they actually categorized as high crimes. Um.
For that you no longer have any rights per Scientology.
They are allowed to post your sins, some true, some
that of context, some made up uh to to to
(04:28):
in an attempt to discredit you, so that people you
know won't listen to you, or won't hire you. Uh to,
reporting your rape to the police, to talk into government agencies.
These are all things categorized as high crimes for which
this fair game doctrine is executed and activated. And that
(04:52):
means so I just like briefly quote some of the policies,
some of the policies to that that just to find
that that that I don't know how they've justified it is,
but I'm quoting. Now, find out what the person seeks
to protect and go after it. And then it has
you know, family, friends, job, and then it says and
(05:16):
at the very least or this I'm not quoting, but
the words are used to utterly destroy the person. And
so I knew that scientology would call my folders, you know,
because I've been as I was a scientologist for thirty
five years. Every sin I've ever confessed has been written
down into a folder. So they what they do is
(05:36):
they go through those folders. They get a team of
employees and they go through every one of your folders
and they write down. Okay, she you know, admitted to masturbating,
or she admitted to getting to a fist fight with
her mother, whatever it was, right, And so they they
tried to use those things against you, And so I
knew that that would be that would happen, which there
(05:59):
are doing today after many years of my leaving um.
And so that is why I started the book that way.
And I also don't don't ever want people to think
that I have claimed or will ever claim that I'm
a perfect person. I'm a person coming out of a
mind controlling cults. You know, you could be in my cult,
(06:22):
you or you could have grown up extremely religious with
extremist ideas. It's all kind of the same banner. But
where mental health and mental well being is concerned, we
are raised to hate anybody who isn't us. We we
(06:43):
are raised to believe that, uh that police. The police
are bad, the AMA is bad, the apia is bad,
psychology is bad. Um. If anything has happened to you,
if if you were raped, molested as a child, if
you had a drug problem alcohol, all of this stems
(07:04):
from your own from your own causation, and you truly
believe all this. Not only did I believe it. I
promoted it right, and like I could never um if
you said you are depressed. There's no word depressed in scientology.
There's no word. They literally would laugh at you and go,
are you've been talking? And what they call log it's
(07:27):
a it's but actually it's a it's a it's a
racial slur in in some countries, but it is. The
word wog is used here as a degraded term for
anybody who isn't us right or subscribed to science alogy.
They would say things like are you using wog? Fucking
psych terms like they're against psychiatry because they actually are
(07:49):
in the field of mental health. They they rail against psychology,
They rail against a a the rail against like anything.
You're not even allowed to do spiritual yoga as a
set of colost So when you talk about children growing
up that way, thinking that anything that's happened to them
is their fault, and children are not allowed to say
(08:13):
that they're depressed or having dark thoughts, are not feeling
good about that. You learn to suppress who you really are,
and what is created is almost like a different person,
a different version of yourself, who is not compassionate to
the world at large, but most, and I think more important,
(08:36):
hateful and shameful about your true condition. What you know
is lying right beneath Sorry a J. No, I was
gonna say, well, first of all, Hi, I miss you.
You look fantastic. We're still going to have my dinner party.
It's still happening. We just oh my god, sorry, it's okay,
that's okay, Like he said, he sent me a few
(08:57):
texts like, you know, sorry to say that, but you know,
like everybody does have to be COVID, so you know,
AJ doesn't know this about me. But I was like no,
but I said, make sure it's this test and it's
not a fucking rapid test, and right, I want to
see results. And also, if they were honest with you,
whoever's gonna be there, We don't know if exactly you know,
(09:22):
a club somewhere or a club family event, well ship,
you know you keep seeing on the news shutting, trust me,
it's gonna be all. Yeah, So I have I have
to well, one is a statement and one is a question. First,
I'll start with the statement. So probably back in around
two thousand and two, two and three, I was at
(09:46):
Clive Davis's Grammy party. Well, myself and the rest of
my you know, band and I won't name names, but
I was talking to an athlete outside. I was having
a cigarette and he had mentioned to me scientology. At
the time time, I was living in Los Felis, right
down the street from the Mega Center of you know,
(10:07):
of science of scientology, and so I was cerious. You know,
I didn't know what it was. I didn't know anything
about it. So but I wanted to like not go alone.
So I took a friend with me. We went down there,
and we got a tour of the facility and they
brought us to this media room and they sat us
down and they said, would you mind watching the short film?
(10:29):
And we watched the short film. It was about fifteen
minutes long. And then I said, okay, well that was interesting,
and we went to leave and the door was locked.
They wouldn't let us out, and then they replayed the
same film again. We didn't get out of that room
for about fifteen minutes they played them, or no longer
than that. They played it three times until somebody heard
(10:51):
me knocking, like hello, and so that freaked me out
because I'm like, okay, this seems like a brainwashing type technique.
This doesn't seemed normal to me. So I got close,
but I never would have because again, you know, I'm
I'm a very spiritual person. That's how I've been raised,
That's how I've been living. My life is more on
(11:12):
spirituality than actual organized religion. But my my question for
you is, well, this isn't this isn't Well yeah, yes exactly.
But my my question you is, thirty five years ago,
what what was the draw for you? What what brought
you in? I was a child that had no choice,
(11:34):
brought in as a child. Um and like I said,
the study of scientology. What they demand us two and
a half hours a day minimum, seven days a week.
So this is not a faith based like you can
go in when you know, no, no priest is knocking
on your door asking you why then are you not
on course? Like that's what they say, Like you need
(11:54):
to be on course, so you need you know, they
have these little courses and you and and also the
other thing that I want to bring up is that
scientology as a priceless you're not allowed to just these
are going in just to they don't believe in God,
even though they sell the idea that you could be
a Catholic Scientologist, a Christian site like they sell that nonsense.
(12:17):
Now just on a technical point to receive tax exemption,
which Scientology is unique in that it has right like
as opposed to like other cults who are have been
taken down because they don't have tax exemption, they're not
recognized as a religion. Uh it you have to say
(12:37):
to to the I R S, to the Commission that
you only believe in one thing, right to be seen
as a tax exempt organization when you're calling yourself religion.
So Catholics will say, we believe in our scripture, right,
we don't believe we're we don't have take from other places,
(12:58):
like we believe in God, we believe and saints, you know,
Christians believe in you know, I mean like they have
to say, this is what we believe in independent of
any other religious philosophies or ideologies. So you have to
only believe what you believe what you're saying you believe.
So they had to say the truth, which is, we
(13:19):
do only believe in Scientology, we don't believe in other faiths, right,
so that that they will be recognized as their own religion.
But then they separately sell that you can be a
Christian and a scientologist. Well, so the I R S
knows what they've done. I just assume, because not enough
(13:39):
people are speaking out that there hasn't been enough pressure
applied to the investigation, to the criminal investigation department of
the I R S. Um So, but rewind us for
a second. So your your mom got you. My mom
got me into scientology and my family and I was
very young, and like I said, because the indoctrination starts
(14:02):
very early, and it's very rigorous, two and a half
hours a day of studying your self brainwashing. So you
believe that the world at law is evil, you believe
that you have the only answers to mankind's uh, your
your mankind savior. It's an extreme She she showed me
her sorry, she showed me her book that she was,
(14:24):
like all these books that she basically that Leah has
in her garage of scientology and it's yeah, this is
required reading. And I test you, and yes, you're tested.
You're supervised. Like you're sitting in a room with other
people doing their scientology studies and there's somebody walking around
the room. If you sneeze, if you call off, they
(14:45):
say get up, get your pack that you're reading, and
come into the other room. You're not allowed to yawn.
They'll make you look up every word you don't understand.
It's really unique in its abuse and how they get
the information in there. So if you could imagine, you guys,
two and a half hours a day required reading, it's
(15:05):
a preset priceless. You have to read. You have to
read what they want you to read. And on the
counseling side of science. And by the way, this all
cost about minimum three hundred thousand. And over time, you
start to dehumanize everybody that isn't you. Like I said,
you grow up to be almost like I could. Only
(15:29):
the only analogy I can make is a Nazi youth,
like there's just no you have no compassion for anybody
that isn't you, And you believe that if you leave,
your eternity is at stake. Right. They believe in future lives.
They believe you've lived many lives before and you'll live
(15:49):
many lives after, which is where the child abuse starts
very early, because they tell you that you're not a child.
They tell you you're an old soul in a big body.
You know you're an old soul in a little body.
I just want to do say I had a chance
to talk to Leah, so I want to get in there. Welcome,
Welcome to our podcast. Um we it started. Our podcast
(16:15):
started because each one of us flamed out in life
at some point and had to piece our life back
together a little bit at a time. And one of
our mantras is we made a mistake, but we're not
a mistake, right. So I wanted to a couple of
points that I wanted to make is one, I understand
(16:35):
why you got out in front of them in your book,
but because they'll try to destroy you and saying, well,
you can't destroy me if I put it out there,
this is I'm not claiming to be this, this or
this right. So for me, oddly enough though, that kind
of transparency is where I found my personal freedom. Right.
(16:56):
Part of my journey and a j's journey, has been
looking in word, being able to accept the mistakes we've made,
being able to not claim that we're saint and say
this is me. I made mistakes, but I'm not a mistake.
So so it seems to me that by getting out
in front of the story is also perfect for you too.
(17:16):
Because you don't have to pretend to be something you're
not right, And that's where the personal freedom comes in. Yes,
you're absolutely right. That's that's like step one. But step
two is also acknowledging um that you have been a
victim trauma, which is the work that I'm doing now right,
trauma work and working with my therapist and accepting the
(17:43):
fact that we are not perfect and unless we deal
with our trauma, we all have trauma. We think of
trauma as you know, big horrible, horrific events like being raped,
and you know, horrible crimes are committed against people every day,
but there are very there's many, many categories of trauma
(18:06):
in our lives. And I mean I was reading the
other day just yelling at your child could be a
traumatic event for that child. And you know, well I
fear from the East Coast. That's like that's good nuts
and mean look yelling I yell at Christmas dinner, Like
that's the way I show my love. But when we
when we like doing like I'm reading parenting books. You know,
(18:28):
as old as I am, I'm still wanting to evolve
and learn, And victim is literally a curse word in scientology,
there's a saying that if you call yourself a victim,
you are incapable, and we'd rather have you dead than incapable.
So dealing with people who were raised with that mentality,
(18:51):
fathers or mothers or caretakers saying things like get up,
stop crying, come on, who get like, just brush yourself off,
and you're not. You should have worked harder at that,
you should have been better at that, you should have
made more money, shouldn't you know? All these things should
have gotten in a All of these things from our
(19:11):
primary caretaker do do really cut you to your core?
And until you deal with that, you're not going to heal.
So it's something that's not perfect. But we all need
to be working on the trauma in our lives, even
if you think you haven't had trauma. I I recommend
(19:35):
um waking the tiger, healing the trauma, the betrayal bonds.
We were talking about Renee Brown. You know, I have
a whole list of books that I've been parenting from
the inside out. When I heard the examples in the book,
I was like, holy you on top of scientology, Like
I never she literally said to me. She my therapist
(19:57):
once said to me could you imagine like just growing
up in an unconditional love household? She goes, can you
just take a moment to think about growing up in
the context of the book Parenting from the Inside Out?
And I sat there and said, okay, let me Thank
(20:19):
god we're on the phone, because I was like looking
at my nails. I was like, I was you know,
she said, you know, at a certain point, she went,
did you did you get there? And I don't know,
it's a in foreign con I don't even know what
that means, Like I actually don't know what that. I
can't even imagine just getting unconditional love from a caretaker.
(20:39):
Now imagine Scientology was my primary caretaker, as well as
every child who was raised in Scientology and as employees,
our parents just sent us there like they'll take care
of you. But I couldn't even imagine, even with the
time that I have with my mom, the concept of
unconditional love, of failing at something. Her going, You're an
(21:01):
amazing person. You did your best, you know what I mean?
Like this is the stuff that I feel like it's
really big, a big part of our healing. I love
that you love that you talked about these I won't
call them covert traumas, but things that I like you.
I used to think traumas were the big ticket items, right,
only that, And then you start to realize that there's
(21:25):
a lot of other traumas that you don't realize how
profoundly affected you were. Like, for example, you know, and
my mom doesn't listen to this podcast God. Yeah, but
you know, she grew up old school Catholic in a
very sort of condemning God. And I didn't make my
(21:46):
first communion and she always told me I'm going straight
to hell. She just said that. And I said, well,
but what if I do charitable things? She says, it
doesn't matter, You're going straight to hell. And then when
when she'd be mad at me, she'd call me Judas, right,
and it's it's like, for for a long time, I
thought it was funny, but then I realized, holy shit,
(22:06):
that's a hell of a thing to call a kid
the worst person to ever live, right, And so I
had to work through that stuff, you know, And and
without working to that stuff, I was tied to my past.
I was not going to live a life where I
felt I was good enough, you know. And so I'm
glad that you mentioned that about these other traumas that
(22:28):
are not the ones that everyone else you know, getting
hit by a car, right, which are huge traumas, But
a lot of this covert stuff that happens. God bless
my parents. They only did what they were taught, right, Well,
that's what they say. It hurt people hurt, right, that's
what they But you know, it's what I'm telling my
mother now, you know, I told her, I think you
(22:49):
should read this parenting book. And she's like, are you
kidding me? Lee? I'm like almost dead, what are you
talking about? Like, you know, and I have the mentality
of fifty like what can I really change? Right? Like
this has been me all my life? Right, But you know,
if if we all thought that way, we just would
never learn, we would never evolve. And I said, because
you know, you're with my daughter, you know, like you're
(23:11):
a grandparent, and I don't want you doing the things,
are saying things that you think are funny because my
daughter is quick as like, so you you think that
you know she can handle this or that's not going
to be hurtful. And I said, and I just I'm
just not going to have you doing that to my daughter.
You know, I just as her parents, if you can't
(23:33):
subscribe to the way that I that I want to
raise her, which is in this unconditional love way. And
don't get me wrong, unconditional love doesn't mean me not
saying to her, Hey, do you think I work for you?
Because I don't. So you put your freaking dish in
the damn dishwasher. I don't want to give anybody the
(23:53):
idea that that thinking in these terms is you're running
a around like you know, flower power person. You're not
like love bombing everybody. But it's very poignant things that children.
We often do to our children, right, because that's what
(24:13):
we know. So that's why I'm pushing my mother to
read the book, and I'm reading the book and I'm
trying to apply those principles to my life because teaching,
teaching responsibilities, and teaching morality in our children today is
absolute key. Listen, we gotta take a quick break and
when we come back, more from my crush. And I'll
(24:35):
say it to her face right now, still my crush really?
Oh yeah, Okay, we'll come back to that. We'll pick
pick up right from there from there, Yes, after this, Hey,
(25:01):
you guys, we're back and uh we're here with the
amazing Leah Remini and uh Leah, how's uh, how's your
better half doing? How's that? How's that handsome devil? Oh
he's great, honey, thank you. He's you know, listen, and
he's learning all this ship too, you know, because he's
old school. He's like, what what do you mean not
yell at Sophia when she's being an asshole? You know,
(25:23):
I mean, I'm like, yeah, we got But it's funny
how you mentioned East Coast because you know, I'm I'm
also East Coast. And it's interesting because that's how I
was raised, was you know, like not necessarily yelling, but
it was more disciplinary from my parents, mainly my grandfather
because my parents were split up when I was really young,
(25:44):
so my grandfather kind of was the masculine you know,
symbol in my life. And oh yeah, I mean I
I never got hit as a child. I'm not a
I'm not a hitter, like I'll never strike my kid.
But you could say things in a certain tone that
registered it's disappointment. It's it's you know, uh, degrading like
(26:08):
we were talking about earlier, right, like thinking to call
you ju this is or to think that you know,
you're you were damned to hell no matter what your character,
these are things that are very damaging. Oh absolutely. I
mean you talk about traumas and things like, you know,
my family and I had to be out of our
home for nine months because of the Wolvesy fire and
(26:29):
the Wolvesy fires to this day is still in the
back of both of my both my kids minds, like
they won't sleep in separate beds, they won't close their
doors still anymore, and it's, you know, it's it's still
affected them. So like when there was a fire a
couple of weeks ago, two and a half miles from
my house, they were in full on panic mode even
(26:50):
though they you know, now there's more preparation here with
the fire department. People know. But what I wanted to
ask you, you know, because you because you brought up
your you know um and she's the one that got
you into this, is she still active? Number one? And
number two? Like, what is the relationship now between you
and her that you've removed yourself and you're speaking so
(27:12):
openly about the truth. Well, she just so you know,
you're not allowed to talk to people who who uh
publicly leave scientology, so I couldn't know my mother if
she chose to stay in which a lot of people do.
So they also have a policy of disconnection. You're not
allowed to talk to your own son or daughter who
(27:33):
reported they're a crime committed against them. Uh. They force
you to disconnect from your own children, like I said,
and then they create hate websites and they make your parents,
your sons and daughters, uh, say horrible things about you
and attempt to discredit you. So there would be no
relationship if she didn't leave with me. I mean, how
(27:54):
long was that process for you? Six years? It took
me six years to leave, six years to totally come
completely be done out free, Leah. That separation is sort
of standard issue for cults, right, isn't that one of
the main tools the cults use. Yes, it separate you
from anyone that might disagree or taint your brain with
(28:18):
doubt or anything like that. Right, Yes, as well as
this dehumanization that we're talking about, where they make the
other side, who's the enemy not human? Right, so that
you it justifies your behavior towards them. Right, So if
you're destroying them, it doesn't matter because they're not. They're subhuman.
(28:38):
So yes, that is part of the you know, it's
important parcel to how cults set themselves up. Of course
they start with the love bomb and the a j
of course, come in, we're gonna give you a tour.
We're gonna serve you coffee on a tray, and here
are the courses that we have and they're only thirty
five dollars and you know, but that is all part
(29:00):
of the game, right right, I mean you you have
to you're to be friends with somebody for ten twenty
years before you even bring it up. That's all part
of the game. Never allowed the lure, Yeah, exactly, that's
the lure. You're you're you're throwing it in the water,
waiting for for you know, a fish to bite, and
(29:21):
it's you know, and then you are that. But but
that's the thing. You're the fish. You don't realize that
you're the fish. And if you bite, you know, Yeah,
it's it amazes me. Yeah. Well, I did want to
just briefly touch on unconditional love because you had mentioned
that and and I agree, I think it people have
(29:43):
a misconception of what unconditional love is. It means I
could be stern with my daughter, right, and but let
her know I love you like you made a mistake.
But I'm not saying I don't love you anymore. Right,
you cannot stop being a teacher. Some people think unconditional
(30:03):
love means, oh, you want and I'm not yes, and
I'm not going to stop you. That's not what unconditional
love is in my opinion. Do you know, it's just
you love them no matter even when they make mistakes,
and you let them know I love you no matter what, yes,
or you know, or or even things like overreacting to
(30:26):
a child's winning at a game or being able to
do it sends a message, a subliminal message that you
get this huge reaction from me when you're number one,
You've got this huge reaction from me when you're the best.
As opposed to that kind of love should be a
(30:46):
steady go, right, I mean it should should be constant,
right whether or not you won that game or you
were the best of this. Doesn't you know my love
for you is any miss just on a daily like
I've just started practicing that with my own daughter, where
every day I just in conversation, I go, I love
(31:09):
the way you think I love how funny you are.
I love that you got through today. You know, I
know how hard today was, you know for you just
in general, and how hard it's been for you as
you know, being a child in a pandemic. You know, like,
so it's it's that kind of thing. I was actually
going to switch back to programming, you know how how
(31:30):
you were programmed from you know, you never even made
a choice. You were just brought up the way people
are brought up. Catholic people are brought up, and I
was so I wouldn't say that we were We were
brought up in the way that Catholics are not taught
to hate their fellow man. And we were not taught
any kind of charitable We were not thinking, we were
(31:53):
not involved in any out teach or belief in God.
We were not. We were raised to hate people. Yeah,
I don't. I don't mean to compare the two. What
I meant was, you never consciously made a decision I'm
going to join scientology. It was made for you, right.
I was only comparing those two in that way. Uh.
(32:14):
And I constantly think about how society programs us to
think other things that, let's say, not cold tish, But
I know I've I've realized that, like all the I'm
a songwriter and a director, and a lot of this
stuff I've written is so codependent. Movies are codependent, right,
songs are codependent. I would die without you, uh, you know,
(32:37):
I can't breathe without you. And we're taught that you
want to be happy, get that car, And then you
get that car and you realize you were excited to
get the car, it wasn't making you happy, right, So
it's like we've it's almost like society conditioned me to
think that if I wanted to be happy, I needed
(32:58):
a Y, you know, a B or C. Right. So
I've had two deprogram through help those feelings that I'm
only good enough if I know so and so, or
if I'm married to so and so, or if I
do this, this or this. And it turns out that
right that there's a big difference between excitement and happiness. Now, listen,
(33:23):
I am all four people wanting things and getting the
beautiful house that they dreamed of and getting the beautiful car,
Like two things can exist at the same time. You
could want those things and have those things and be
joyful and happy that you've achieved it. You know, like
that's one thing I could say about my mom. Like
(33:44):
I used to say, you know, we couldn't even we
didn't even have food in the house or our heart
water was turned off. And I was like, I want
a big Cadillac. You know, for people like back in
the day, this was the car to half. I'm not
saying Mercedes because that wasn't even a thing in my neighborhood,
you know, like it was a Cadillac. If you didn't
(34:05):
have a Cadillac, you were just not anything. So and
she'd go, then get it, Leah, I want you to
get it. I want you to have that Cadillac. And
then as I got older, I was like, I want
a big house. She was like, then damn it worked
for it. Get it. And you can also understand that
you can have those things, but those things do bring
(34:25):
you happiness, right. Money brings you security, and that gives
you happiness, and you're able to provide for your family
and make great memories with your family with or without it.
But at the same time, sometimes it could be discouraging
because you think that is your key to happiness, and
then you realize you actually never dealt with a little
(34:47):
boy or girl who was hurt, who never felt good
enough because you grew up a certain way like I did,
where I didn't have much and felt judged and not
right and I isn't like part of the right crowd.
And I still feel like that today. You know, when
I was accepting the Emmy, you know it's on the
Emmy stage. You know, I thought, one day I'll feel
(35:09):
like I belong in this business, like I'm accepted by
this business, and even up there, I was like, but
I'm not. You know, am I still But am I
really accepted in the Hollywood you know crowd? Or am
I I still feel like I'm on the outside not
still that poor girl that people are judging and looking
at my sneakers and saying they're not like new or
(35:32):
why do you have laces that look like that? Or
what you know what I mean. So it's like, if
I don't heal that stuff, none of it means like
outside resources, like yeah, you have to be find that
thing in yourself that you feel you have gotten to
a place where you can fully accept yourself with every
flaw that you have, because none of us are not.
(35:56):
Don't give up how many podcasts we listen to, how
many books we read, how many counseling sessions we have,
we are never going to be perfect. And when we
accept that that would never gonna be and stop beating
ourselves up for those things and giving ourselves labels and
all of that, Like we just need to accept that.
(36:19):
But anyway, go ahead, Cheryl. Sorry, So you know, just
the whole scientology way of thinking, right, Like, they didn't
promote any of self love or any of any type
of confidence. They wanted just to bash you and wanted
you to feel like you were dependent on them in
a way. Um, is that right? Well? Yes, like I said,
it's it's because it's a study of two and a
(36:41):
half hours a day and the concepts are everything that
happened to you is bad. If you say you're you
were molested by a scientologist, uh, they would then put
you on their lie detector and ask you in what
other life you have molested a child? Right? And what
did you do? And it's we're not concerned with what
(37:03):
happened to you, but what did you do? Because you
won't fully recover from this unless you figure out that
it was your responsibility. So that's that's just part and
parcel to say you're never allowed to like hugging somebody
if somebody died, and like, I'm so sorry that your
lust you They're like, are you kidding me? Like we
(37:23):
don't believe in like that, like the mother is already
off getting another body, like get the like these are
the words they use, extremely abusive. I don't are you
you groom to accept this kind of abuse? But you
also work to be an abuser. I had to work
do that ship. I mean I would when you when
you started dancing with the stars with a weird transition
(37:46):
for you, like to have to because you left the
church and went straight to dancing with the stars. Is
that right, right? Yes? So like having to have to
interact with um non scientologists and all of a sudden
kind of showcasing maybe you're life but more trying to
learn how to ball room dance. Did you find the
transition to be um? Like, how are people reacting to you?
(38:07):
Because I'm sure you still had, you know, the same
type of mannerisms maybe you had in the Church of Science.
I still do. I mean I still have to call
my therapist and say is this abusive? And she's like yep,
And I'm like, uh, you know, like, that's not norm
want to talk to you know, it's it's or to
say these things in anger, like what the funk? You know?
(38:29):
It's it's it's it's still learning. I mean, I'm out
what seventy year? I don't even know, but yeah, what
I did dancing with the stars, I was felt liberated.
But also imagine losing all of your friends and community
and you're basically your mother and father because they were
your primary caretakers, right. Everybody in scientology represented a mother
(38:50):
or father to me. So losing all of that in
what overnight of thirty five years? So I felt like
I was part of this enemy walk group. And then
I'm drinking and carrying on, you know, and I'm like
I'm everything that I'm not supposed to be. But yet
I don't hate people. I don't. I'm not judging people
(39:12):
when I'm talking to them, going, well, they just need scientology.
I mean, if I knew you as a scientologist, Cheryl,
all I would be thinking about or age like, all
I'd be thinking about you, guys, is how how I
can help you? How I can turn away from the
bullshit you're doing and bring you into scientology. And it
might take five years of me never saying anything bad
(39:34):
about me, never saying anything bad about that therapy you're doing,
just pretending to hear you and be your friends. But
eventually I'd say, you know, I have something that can
help you, um, because I never really had a chance you.
You know, when I was doing Dance with the Stars,
you and I had some great conversations because you had
(39:55):
done the show, um, and you had a lot of insight,
and you know, I you and I had a lot
of conversations about me kind of battling myself and my
insecurities of like can I do this? Can I not
do this? And I just want to say to you
thank you because you really were such a blessing. Um.
(40:15):
You know, being introduced to you through Cheryl really did
help me. Both of you guys were fantastic. I mean,
Cheryl and I are going to be friends for the
rest of our days. But but no, but I just
wanted to say thank you too. You were such a great, um, yeah,
(40:38):
mentor figure to me and just kind of just just
a great shoulder to kind of lean on. And I
just want to say thank you for that because you
really did help me kind of get over get over
my fear. You know, people would think, why would you
be afraid? You do this for a living? No, I
don't that. I want to say thank you because look,
(40:59):
if you were still active in what you were doing,
that would never have happened. I would never have met you,
the relationship would never have grown. I wouldn't have gotten
the insight that I did from a loving, caring, compassionate individual,
non judgmental individual that you are today that you may
not have been seven or eight years ago. You know
(41:20):
what I'm saying, thank you, Yes, thank you. I'm going
to have to ask you this question that everybody wants
to know. I just want to respond to a j
RELI fast because I want to. I want to say
something back to you. You being you being vulnerable right
you were You were brave enough to be vulnerable with
somebody who didn't know, and you said, I am you know?
(41:43):
Should I don't know if I could do this? Yes,
I sell out studios, yes you know, but this is
just me without my boys that like, this is me
raw and I'm feeling all kinds of things and I
don't take that lightly. When people tell me I'm a afraid,
I I almost burst into cheers. Because that meant that
(42:04):
they trust me enough to be vulnerable. I also feel
that way when people are mad at me, when they
yell at me and go you whatever, because I feel like, oh,
they trust that our relationship is gonna stay intact, like
they they know that I love them, and I'm gonna
like we're gonna be frendsy after this. Like I'm actually
touched when people tell me how they really feel, because
(42:27):
it it means you trust me. But but more so
the compliment back to you that you are able in
your life to be the man that is vulnerable and
allows that to be shown, and that for you to communicate,
that says a lot about who you are. And so
you you gave me that compliment by giving me all
of that. Indeed, Yeah, sorry, go ahead. What's the big question, Cheryl?
(42:52):
I mean the question that everyone has, including yourself. Where
the hell Shelly Muscavenge, Well, for people who don't know
Shelly Muscavige, just the leader of Scientology's wife. She has
not been seen in public, I think now for twelve years.
I don't have the answer. I have filed a police
report to missing person's report. The detective who was in
(43:13):
charge of the case was at Scientology speaking events at
the place that you went to, a j celebrity center.
So I don't think that he was really the most
trustworthy source. As well, the Hollywood Police Division of the
l a p D. They go to Scientology events down
the street constantly. UM, the captain their Polka, who, thank god,
(43:34):
is not there anymore. They were just buddy buddy with Scientology,
and so I didn't get any answers. He basically told
me that she's fine and doesn't want to be found.
I said, but where did you see her? Did you
actually see her with your own two eyes? Was she
with a Scientology handler? What? What? What location was she at?
(43:55):
Give me something from the one to file the police
report and he said, if you want to know any information,
you'll have to file through the Public Information Act, which
I did. Uh. Then had to hire a lawyer, which
I spent a nice chunk of money trying to get further.
And basically we went to the end and the lawyer said,
I'm gonna need a hundred thousand dollars retainers or to
move for further. Uh, it might be better if you
(44:17):
get a family member to to to pursue this. Um.
I did the family member is in fear if her
sister is alive. She knows that if she does file
a welfare check on her sister, that her sister will
never call her if she is alive, and okay, because
she'll be on the list of enemy. Um all all
(44:40):
calls in or out of the place that has been
rumored she is. You can't pick up the phone, call
nine one one. Um, what do you think she would
even leave? Would she leave? If that's the other thing?
I I if she is alive, I pray that she is.
You know, there's the prison of belief, and so we'd
have to work through through that. But even getting to her,
(45:01):
there's no door to knock on. There's a trespass on
property even but there's no where to there's no where
to to go. There's no where to actually try to
find somebody. She if she is alive, she's being held.
She's watched twenty four hours a day, seven days a week.
She cannot come and go. She doesn't have a cell phone.
(45:21):
So this is just not so that's so that's the answer.
But also, guys, being that we're in the same family,
you know, we do a podcast called fair Game, and
we discussed this every week. We just we take people's questions,
but we also have guests on and we cover the
activities a fair game that's happened. It's not a thing
of the past. It happens every day to me. Two
(45:44):
victims that have current cases going with the l a
d s Office here, Uh, these these brave women survivors. Um.
Every day they have p I s at their house.
They have of people who were mentally unstable, who failed
scientology is you know, drug programs that don't work, and
(46:04):
they unleash these people onto us and to our property. Um.
And this is what's been happening since the day they
found police reports. So I'm just so proud of you,
Like I'm really proud of you for having the balls
to do all of this and to really just put
your own life at risk, I guess you can say,
(46:25):
but not really. I just feel like you're just speaking
up for all, you know, the people that have been
a part of the church that can't speak up for themselves.
And I think what you're doing is is such an amazing,
such amazing work, you know, and um, it's and thank
you to you guys, because you give me a voice
for them. Right, like we're now I'm talking on your podcast.
(46:45):
You guys had me on and you're supporting me, and
Cheryl your public about your support of me, which you
know for scientology that you're picking the side of right,
and so you two would be proud of their gamed um,
and so you are putting herself at risk and you know,
listen for me, you know, I'm well prepared and my
(47:06):
husband's well prepared to protect my home and my daughter
and our household. But for people who are not prepared
for that, the psychological damage to what they're doing to
already traumatized victims should be a crime. Um. But I
think that when you're when you're on the side of right, eventually, uh,
(47:28):
you know, dark becomes light. Like I'm just educating everybody.
You're educating everybody through your experience. So thank you, thank you.
I wanted to also throw in my admiration because I
do know a little bit about scientology. I used to
be married to an entertainer. They also try to recruit us,
(47:49):
um and when they she had a boyfriend. When they
broke up, he lived with me for a month and
his scientologist and my feeling and understanding of scientology was
don't ever turn on them because you'll be done kind
of like the mafia, kind of like you know, taking
(48:11):
I always I try not to insult the mafia because
they do have morals and they do respect family, and
let's insult the mafia, right, But we do know don't
don't turn on the mafia. We do know that, right,
more and moralistic. But anyways, I just wanted to say that, like,
like what Cheryl just said, the hood spa to take
(48:34):
on this monolith that everyone is afraid of. So I
also admire the fact that you would be willing to
do that, especially given that you were indoctrinated, had to
fight that off and then somehow get the internal sort
of power and forced to then take on the monolith.
That's huge. So congratulations for that. Yeah, I didn't know
(48:56):
you were such an You were such an amazing game show.
How By the way, I just saw your I saw
one episode just now when I was getting ready for
this podcast. I was so shocked. You guys, Lea was
trying to teach me in my family, Rummy cup. I'm
telling you, she's a different person when went on television
than you are in person. That's all I'm gonna say, okay,
(49:18):
so listen, Leah before we because unfortunately we have to
wrap things up. But before we do, um, can you
tell people out there that may not know about People
Puzzler and let them know what this is before we
let go. So the People Puzzlers, the crossword game, the
crossword Puzzle, and People Magazine, right, you know, it's pop
culture and fun facts and game show Network got together
(49:41):
and it's called the People Puzzler. I'm hosting it. It's
it's an amazing little gift or like it came. Probably
not the best wait time for me because like everybody else,
I was just acting like you know, I was never
gonna eat again every meal, um since mark uh so
I threw on you know, ten pairs of spanks. But
(50:04):
it was at a time that I really needed to
connect with people and laugh with people. And every time
because only one person, well two people win. One wins
a thousand dollars and the other wins a ten but
if the one person every time the person left, like
was walking out the stage, I was like, sorry, Mary,
you know you want a pen or you know, looking
(50:24):
for like water. I felt so every time. So we
did sixty five shows, right, like six shows a day.
Every single time I said, oh, sorry, thank you for coming,
every single person was like, are you kidding me? At
the best time? Are you kidding me? That's the first
time I laughed today? Are you kidding me? Like I
got to get out of the house and be with
people and laugh and just get away from it all
(50:46):
for a couple of hours. And so that's why I'm
so grateful, like to do the podcast that I do
with Mike, and then to have the people Puzzler working
on other projects that I that are close to my heart,
some comedies, some are just things that I thought I
was doing in scientology that I wasn't doing. And you know,
(51:06):
I'm just looking into the areas now that you know,
I feel like for the first time, like I'm really
becoming the person that I wanted to be, and I
want to do those things that you know I will
later be proud of myself for and that you know
that it's not just scientology, you know what I mean,
It's not just scientology yet. I just want to plant
one last seed. I want to plant one last seed
(51:29):
before we let you go. So obviously everyone knows you
from the King of Queens, but I just want to
plant the seed. So new show, Queen of New York.
I play your younger annoying brother, go perfect, love it.
I love it. Thank you so much, thank you, thank you. Hey,
(51:49):
I love and thank you guys. You were very gracious
and so loving to me. Probably unwarranted, but I really
thank you for all the love. Thank you. Yes, love
you so much. Thank you. And uh, I'll hit you
up about that dinner party. We're all gonna have it.
It's coming. I'm making another lasagna. Oh god, yes, yes, please,
(52:09):
thank you all right you guys. So, uh, it's that
time during the podcast where we like to read your
(52:32):
emails and as always, thank you guys for sending us
emails and amazing questions. Um, and thank you guys for
hitting that subscribe button and giving us five stars. Uh.
So this question is from Danetta. What Backstreet Boys song
would you say best reflects how you feel about your
sobriety and recovery and why whoa okay? Um you know yeah,
(53:00):
actually's back night. Um, one time you would have loved
to have gotten advanced question? Oh yeah, no, no, for sure. Um,
you know it's it's kind of a tie. Um, there's
a song called Siberia, UM, which you know, in my
opinion was was was hands down one of our best,
(53:20):
our best records. It should have been a single, it
never was. UM, sadly, but when you think of Siberia,
in my mind, you think of just like beauty, but
also like very alone. That to me is kind of
what I felt when I was in my disease. Actively.
I was just kind of in this you know, huge
(53:41):
open space of being by myself. But then on the
flip side, UM, a song called Showing what You're made Of,
which was written by myself and my bandmate Kevin. It
was actually written about all of our kids, UM, and
the inspiration that they are to to to each of
us and in my recovery today. My kids are a
(54:05):
massive part of my sobriety. UM. You know, they inspire
me daily. They drive me to want to continue to
be a better father, a better person, UM, and to
hopefully continue to set a good example for both my girls. UM.
I've just had to live life on life's terms. And look,
(54:27):
you know, if God forbid, either one of my girls
turns out to be an alcoholic or an addict, God
forbid it does happen. Um. The longer that I stay sober,
I think the more support and knowledge I can bring
to the table at that point. Um. And obviously the
doors of A A and and any at all programs
(54:51):
of recovery would be open to my to my girls obviously,
but you know, music in general, to button it up,
Music in general is a big part of my recovery.
If there was no music, I think more than half
of this entire globe would be depressed. Yes, that is true. Yes,
(55:13):
speaking of songs, a J. One one day we were
in the studio and A J played for me a
lot of songs that never even made it on the album.
And what really tripped me out, aside from them being insane,
is he knew the lyrics to all those songs. I'm like,
how could your brain remember all the ones that were
(55:36):
released publicly, all the B sides? You know, It's like
how we do choreography, Renee, But like you know you,
it kind of gets instilled. I guess maybe you know.
I don't even listen to lyrics. That's how crazy it
is for me. When I listened to the song, I
listened to the rhythm and not the lyrics. You and I,
both you and I both. I swear to use some
of the most famous songs. The lyrics I thought that
(55:57):
they were were not even and then on the opposite
being being a musician, Yes, I do listen to the
to the music obviously, but the lyrical content and the
melody is what is what drives me. My friends think
it's weird because I'm a lyricist, right, so you would
think I would be listening to lyrics, but I don't.
(56:18):
I think my dancer takes over totally. Can I do
a run back to this exactly? And you feel the
rhythms coming and you, even if you've never heard a song,
you could tell when the changes coming. Yes, yes, the
next like the next verse, or like the arrangement of this.
So I I also want to give one one more
quick shout out to an amazing fan. She goes by
(56:42):
s J, but Sarah is her name. Thank you so much,
Sarah for sending us these custom made, pretty messed up cups.
I was like when she said, m how come I
didn't know she sent three? Here? I gotta get you yours.
You guys, here's the thing. You guys are the smart ones,
(57:04):
and I'm the one giving up my home address. I
know I was gonna say, I'm going to give him
to Renee, and I'm like, oh, you know, you might
want to thank no I honestly, I'm sure you've been
in touch with her. I'm in touch with her over
Instagram and honestly, like she's just such a cool person. Yeah.
(57:26):
I mean so, I'm like that would have been perfect
Christmas gifts. I'm so, I'm like, I didn't even think
of it. I was such a great idea, great idea.
Thank you so much, Sarah. Well listen, listen everybody out there. Um,
you know, thank you guys for tuning in. We want
to thank our amazing guest, Leah Remedy. She is freaking
She is like my new big sister. Uh love you, darling.
(57:47):
Thank you so much for blessing us with your presence.
We love you and you guys. Stay tuned for our
next episode here on iHeart Radio, Pretty Messed Up, Stay,
stay classy, stay see Santiago exactly. Follow Pretty Messed Up
on I Heart Radio, or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.
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