June 23, 2020 • 42 mins
During this week's episode, I had the pleasure of interviewing a Colorism Expert. She's has been a guest on Red Table Talk, gave a Ted Talk that has over one million views, and appeared on BET with sharing her journey on self-love. She shares the history of colorism, how it affects the Black community, and how colorism affected her while growing up. Such a good and informative episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome. You are now listening to the Professional h Professional.
(00:37):
Hey guys, welcome to this week's episode of the PhD Podcast.
It's your girl, eban A and like always, I am
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(02:02):
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link will also be available in the show notes, so
(02:23):
please keep in mind that all of my guests are anonymous.
So let's begin this week's episode. Now, Before we begin
this week's episode, I want to do a humble flex
for my guests. She was a guest on the Red
Table Talk discussing colorism within our community. In addition, she
did a TED talk which was viewed over one million times.
(02:45):
She is a Harvard graduate and she received her NBA
from Stanford. I am beyond proud of her and I
am super excited to have her on the PhD Podcast.
So to my guests. How are you feeling. I am
feeling really good. It's really exciting, need to be here.
I love supporting just different platforms that amplify black voices.
(03:05):
So I'm feeling great. So once again, I just want
to say thank you so much for sharing your knowledge
and your story with us. This is one of those
episodes that is there to me because like Minnie Brownies,
I too experience colorism. So once again, thank you so much. Um,
when did you become so passionate about colorism? Yeah, that's
a great question. It's I mean, it's something I've always
(03:28):
lived with and known about, right so, or I guess
it's something I experienced before I knew what it was called.
And so you know, growing up while I grew up
in a in a neighborhood that did not have very
many black people, so one always kind of being on
the outside as one of the few black people. And
then you know, I kind of remember what I finally
(03:49):
was was able to be in spaces are an opportunities
with other black people, but still feeling lesser than or
still feeling marginalized. And I remember I had it first
became clear to me when you know, I was walking
through the mall. So that was some time in high school,
and it was me and my two friends. One of
(04:10):
my friends who was think complexion as me, you know,
brown skin girl, and my other friends. She's mixed to
was half black, half Mexican, so you know, very light skin,
you know, the long hair, blu curtain type of hair, right,
you know, and like, you know, all the guys would
kind of make a bee line to talk to her.
Um and my friend who who's brown skin like me,
(04:32):
she was like, you know, all the guys only like
her because she's light skinned. And I remember when she
said that, it was like a light bulb went off
and like that shed light and all the experiences that
if I've always had and how come I you know,
it was always passed over or you know, was you know,
wasn't I wasn't looked upon as as worthy or wasn't
(04:55):
looked upon as good enough. And I think it's even
more problem amongst women. You know, I have two brothers,
and you know, they like they definitely had a more
welcoming experience and men don't go through that for some reason.
Well I think they do a little bit, but not
nearly to the extent of that women do. And so
(05:18):
that that was the first time I was really able
to understand my experience of like, oh, that's why even
within black spaces, I'm still um, not as view I'm
still not viewed as as worth, you're not as not
viewed us favorably. And then it wasn't really until I
got to college where I took a lot of African
(05:40):
American studies, my the social studies made without the name
of my major, UM, and I focused on sociology and
even more specifically on like race and gender and identity
and all of that. And so that's when I was
really able to study black identity and you know, critical
race theory. And that's when I learned that this thing
had a name. It's called colorism, and you know, it
comes from slavery and and so that's that's always something
(06:03):
I was interested in. I know, I wrote my thesis
on black identity when I was in college. UM, and
so it's just you know, just because my own lived
experience is something that's always piqued my interest. Um. Then
when I got to grad school, there was a we
had a public speaking of course, if you will, and
(06:23):
I've always enjoyed public speaking black. In high school, I
was like in debate club and I did oratory, so
I'll give speeches, um, and so on this particular public
speaking class. UM, they said, you know you can to
the topic as of your choice. You know, the whole
objective is just to help you your presentation skills and
to coach you and things like that. So you know,
(06:44):
we're all able to pick a topic that we're passionate about.
And so I got into the class the year before,
so I had the summer to think about what I
wanted to talk about, and then the fall of the
next year because we meet our coaches and and we're
able to ask you prepare. And I've always known that
I wanted to talk about race and identity, like that's
always something I'm interested in, I'm passionate about and have
(07:05):
studied UM. And then it was the summer and that's
when I saw that thread up Compton casting call and
oh wait, wait, wait, we don't listen it. So I
feel like a lot of people don't understand what colorism is,
So can you explain it? Yes, So, colorism is discrimination
(07:26):
against those with a darker skin tone, and it typically
happens within the same racial group. And so within the
black community, it's one black people discriminate against other black
people for having darker skin. Um. And it happens in
other communities too. It's very prevalent in the Indian community
or the Southeast Asian community, um, you know, and they're
much more open about the you know, favoring lighter skin.
(07:50):
There's tons of bleaching cream or it's called brightening cream
or lightning cream. Um. Because know, a lot of Southeast
Asian Indian women really you know, are striving to be
fair skinned. UM. We see it a lot in you know,
Asian community, East Asian communities. You know, you see Korean culture,
Japanese culture ever wants to be white, white, white, and
(08:12):
those that are darker tanner um are definitely looked upon negatively.
So it's it's something that that you see globally, you know.
It's it really stems from the whether it's the from
in the US, the history of slavery um, and a
lot of other countries, the history of colonialism, and just
(08:34):
really that kind of Western the oppression that comes from
the Western Anglo world. That was gonna be my next question,
um winded colorism began because I remember you saying it
it started during slavery in the US. In the US,
it starting slavery, um, but you know it's been happening
(08:55):
even before them. We're looking globally, you know, even from
colonialism and you know the continent of Africa and India, um,
you know, and even before then, just that you know,
whether it's comes from that mindset of you know, the
elite class. They aren't doing hard labor, you know, they're
(09:17):
indoors and so to have darker skin that really means
that you're in the lower cast of society, which means
that you're working in the field there, you're out in
the sun doing more laborious work. Actually stems from many
different places in the US our history. Um, it begins
a slavery. So in what ways do you think that
(09:41):
we discriminate against each other within our community? Yeah, no,
a lot, definitely lots of different ways. And you know
there's the subtle ways of actually it's not even very subtle. Um.
You know, we see that preference of people feeling like,
you know, light skinned men or women are you guys
more desirable? You know, they're called more beautiful. Um. You know,
(10:06):
you're often hear things like you know, the girl with
the good hair, you know, don't stay in the sun.
You don't want to get too dark, um, you know,
and you hear it within within your your community like
oh no, she's so beautiful with her fair skin, and
you don't really hear that about drown skin, and so
(10:26):
I don't really age. You can pick up on the pattern.
You may not know what it's called, Like I didn't
know what it was called, but I can pick up
on the pattern, all right. One of the things that
I learned from you, it was the three tests that
determined how dark a woman was. And before you go
into the three tests, who came up with those tests? Yeah? No,
that's a great question, you know these tests have because
(10:47):
I couldn't find that answer for nothing. Yeah no, I
don't think of who would actually originated from. But definitely
it's them from the times, uh, you know, still dating
back to you know, I say, right after slavery and
you know, needing to define the black population and needing
(11:09):
and wanting to be able to you know, segment who
is allowed, who is allowed into certain spaces and certain
um social circles, and who had access to other types
to certain resources um and the unfortunate thing is, we
as black people are typically the ones that you know,
(11:30):
took on those classifications and you know, really utilize those tests.
I think part of it was for survival, you know,
like those that were you know when you're when you
had light of skin, that was a huge advantage, right,
you had better access to education, you had better access
to jobs. And you know, because the white people who
(11:50):
hold the access, you know, we we as black people,
wanted to be favorable to them. So to show that hey,
we're just like you. You know, look my my hey
is is straight. I can run a puncil through it.
Look my my skin isn't dark. And so to be
able to say, hey, well we are the black people
who are lighter skin and we are just like the
white people, you know, please give us these resources, Please
(12:13):
give us access to this education. They needed a way
to separate from those that weren't. Dean does work being
mm hmm. So how do you think that the media
plays a role in colorism? That is a great question.
The media plays a huge role in perpetuating it and
perpetuating it simply because you know, when you look on screen,
(12:37):
all the black people, you know, when they if they
only look a certain way, and if that way that
it looks like isn't the way you look like a
brown skin and curly hair, it sends a very clear
signal into what's acceptable. Right. Another thing about to my
attention was the partnership between Vasilin and Facebook. And when
(12:59):
I saw it, I was like, Yo, what is wrong
with people? You know? It's it's so crazy, And it's
so crazy because like here in the US, you never
see that, right, like here in the U. Right, But
to think about how today, like in twenty twenty, it
is perfectly acceptable to sell lightning cream in in other countries,
And it just shows that, like it's so deep rooted
(13:22):
and though in the US it's taboo, you're not allowed
to talk about it, those feelings have not yet been
rooted out, you know, And so you know, just the
fact that in other places you can still you know,
they still talked about so openly. It just shows that, hey,
that sentiment is still there. And the fact that the
(13:43):
lightning and bleaching cream is a multimillion dollar business, It's
just like, how is that even possible? Like is the
dead many people out there that's really changing their skin color?
I mean, it's it's crazy and even for me, it
was it was such an eye opening experience. Even at
the Red Table talk, one of the gats, her name
is Stacy Summers, who's so bread and absolutely incredible, she
(14:05):
talked about her skin weaking story, and I was like, WHOA,
I actually didn't know anyone in the US that that that.
And I'm from Nigeria, so I have family overseas, and
it's it's a bit more prevalent there, like you can
buy skin bleaching cream. It was never really done amongst
my family, but it's like there are people that that
(14:27):
do you buy that there? So I just I was
very surprised that he and at least in her community
in Florida, it was widespread. And so it's just once
again just a reminder that you know, those sentiments are
still there even if people don't explicitly say it. Um.
Those beliefs are still there, and it's perpetuated by you know,
who's on the cover of a magazine who gets pass
(14:48):
for certain roles um. And then as the brown skin girls,
we feel it right ian f its never explicitly spoken about,
we can feel that preference and we all for the
same thing. Another story that went by it was the
straight at the content casting call sheet. So when you
broke that down, I was like, Yo, that's just so
(15:11):
crazy to me that somebody was that boat to even
write that down and people were going to buy it, right,
So that you know that it was that casting call
that moved me to that That's when I knew, oh,
I'm not talking gonna be about colorism. It's not the
thing about bracing them specifically about colorism. And that was
a turning point for me. Really, it's really turning point
(15:38):
for me because I I felt like Summer well, I
feel like it was the start of what I'll called
this kind of like black renaissance in Hollywood. Whereas I think, now,
you know, we there's so many um there's way more
content for us than there was for a very long time, right,
(15:58):
but they're insecure that black canther. You know, there's a
moonlight won an oscar like, so there was more excitement now.
But I remember once Day Panting came back, that was
still kind of the beginning of this resurgence of black art.
And I was so excited for that movie because I'm
from l a Um. The Storm but still from l
(16:21):
a Um. I remember just being so excited for this,
like mainly black cast telling the story about black people
in l A. And I remember that whole summer I
had felt so seen. I saw the movie three times
in theaters, like I was just I was so hype
about that movie and stories being told and just you know,
(16:43):
black excellence being shown. Because when I came across that
casting call, it really felt like a slap in the face.
How did you come across? Like on Facebook, it was
starts lating around like it was. It was huge that
call came out. It was like no spread out of Compton,
you know casting call or you know, this racist casting call,
(17:05):
And it broke my heart because I was like, whoa, Like,
these are the people the community where I can finally
be seen because I've spent most of my time in
predominant white institutions, predominant predominantly white spaces, so you know, I,
you know, I've always found a lot of solace in
(17:26):
the black community. Um and so, but the black community
does have its own prejudices, and so this read that
casting call with this painful reminder that even within the
one space right I should feel safe and accepted and seen,
you know, within the black community, even there there's still
(17:47):
divisions and discrimination and preferences of which I am in
the unfavorable bucket. And so yeah, when I was doing
some touch because I watched the documentary Dark Girls, and
everybody just kept saying the same thing. Even Um, one
of the guests in the Red Tables, her daughter said it,
(18:08):
and she was saying how white people made her feel
more appreciative of her skin color than black people. Hey guys,
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this week's episode. And I thought that was crazy because
(18:51):
I'm like, how can black how can black people make
you feel a certain way towards your own complexion. But
I'm from the South, and I was always being told
that I was pretty for a dark skinned girl, and
I used to be like, what the hell does that
even mean? Yeah, No, I think about that a lot.
I think I think it stems a lot from our
own as a community, you know. I think it's something
(19:14):
the fact that I think as a black community, there's
a lot of just self hate ingrained within the community,
which is which is really unfortunate. And I don't think
it's a matter of well, whether or not you have
a little self esteem or whether or not you have confidence.
I just think as a community, I think about our
parson in the US, we've you know, we've been taught
(19:34):
to not not like our blackness, and that's been for survival,
you know, Like for so it's been a matter of
survival to distance ourselves from our blackness. And so I
think that you know, has just been so ingrained within
our psyche as a community that I think that's why
(19:54):
as black people were more noticeable of distancing ourselves from
you know, very dark skinned, very kinky hair, you know,
like we've been so programmed to know that, hey, those
types of things might hold me back. Those types of
things you know, can will hinder me from success in
(20:15):
a way that as a white person, they just see
a black person with your light skinned or dark standards
like you're black, which just means that you are not white,
which treature accordingly. But for you know, as a black community,
as we're trying to get ahead, and we can pick
up on the signals from society, and the signal term
society is that you need to align yourself as close
(20:36):
to whiteness as possible. That's a fact. That's so after
these companies show support when it comes to break in
society standards of what beauty is. That is a great question.
And I will say this, and I will say this forever.
I will forever be a Rihanna stand because of Fenty.
(20:57):
And that signifies so much because any brand could have
done what Fenty did. They just didn't want to. Any brand,
all these billion dollar beauty companies they could have, They
have the formulations, they have the money, they just didn't
think that it They didn't see the market value of it.
(21:18):
So the fact that Rihanna could come out and be like,
I am going to have a brand whose mission is
to serve you know, browns, could women of all shades,
and the fact that she was able to be so
successful and now all these other legacy beauty companies are like,
oh wait, well now we need to do this that too,
And so, you know, I think it's very easy for
(21:40):
the people at the top to you know, just look
at black people as almost like like like a line
item and very quickly see, well, well, how much money
will I make by focusing on this on this market
segment and if and if it's it's not gonna be profitable,
then then why doesn't matter? Um? And so you know,
(22:01):
not not viewing you know, as as a people as
just um, a market segment that you can do the
math and say, hey, it's not profitable to focus on them,
so we're not going to and really seeing it as like, hey,
these are people whose you know, needs and wants aren't
currently being serviced, and so what can I do to
(22:26):
to service this market? I'm just curious, So what is
your thoughts who all these companies coming out now saying
black lives matter, we support black people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's it's been interesting Instagram and you know, I'm seeing
companies and it's no it's it's hard to say until
(22:47):
unless I'm in that particular company, right, So, because it's
at the end of the day, you hope it's authentic,
and you hope it's genuine, and you hope that you know,
I think this was a wake up call. This, this
moment um with George Floyd has really been a wake
up call for a lot of non black people that like,
(23:08):
oh wait, like something is going is going on. Maybe
because of since Corona were all inside and have had
less distractions, we're able to two it in a bit more.
But it's definitely been a wake up call. So the
question is, um, is this was this a wake up
call that, oh well I really need to reflect and
think about how I've been participating in um, you know,
(23:31):
anti black sentiments and how I can change versus well,
what's the Instagram post I need to put up so
I don't get dragged? And it's hard to say from
the outside. Um, So you know, my my only ask
is that you know, if anyone that's listening to this,
that's that's working somewhere, is you know, let's let's hope
that the leadership is genuine and that's being held accountable. Yeah,
(23:57):
I can't wait to see these people leadership boards because
a lot of people want to be pro black and
black lives matter, but representation matters, and I don't see
a lot of black people at these boards meeting. So
let's see, right, so exactly and so and this is
you know, I feel like this is will be a
big opportunity for a lot of black people that have
been overlooked, like there was no way someone can be
(24:20):
to you now you know, right, this is the perfect
time for you. Gotta get your stuff out. Yeah, have
your start up there like people brought like you're gonna
get fund being like this is the time because everybody
got money for black people. So one of my favorite
talks that you did was on bat and you gave
your thoughts on how beauteous to find by men. So
(24:42):
I want you to share with the listeners. But before
you do, one of the things that you did when
they talk and when you gave the definition, how you
feel about how many of you be women? A lot
of the women the audience were black women, and they
were just shaking their heads and agreeing with you, and
some people was even like tearing up. How did that
make you feel? Yeah, I know that talk was that
(25:06):
was amazing. I think that was one of your best talks.
Like I was, like, I even started tearing up, and
I'm gonna talk about why I teared up later, but
go ahead, I saying thank you so much. Yeah, that
was Can I did that talk? Um, I gotta maybe
six months after my Ted talk and I almost do
that as part two. Um. I definitely see the growth
between part one with the Ted talk and part two
(25:29):
to where you was at. And I'm gonna explain that later,
but go ahead, yeah. Yeah, And so I don't I
don't want to get way whatever you're gonna explain, So
I'll just kind of talk about, um, how I how
I felt about my thought was is so after the
the Ted talk and the big thing with the Ted talk,
it was it was my opportunity to um shared this,
share what this phenomenon of colorism was to to my audience.
(25:52):
And remember I gave this in grad school Stanford that
doesn't have that many black people. So it was more
so like explaining to the audience, Hey, this is what
rhythm is. You guys may never have heard about it,
but this is what it is that affects a lot
of people. And it's affected me and how that's something
that I'm still working through is how can I really um,
(26:13):
you know, love my blackness? And you know, how how
do I really you know, I I say, you know,
I'm a strong black woman, I'm smart, blah blah blah.
But you know, there's always been that this part of
me that I never fully embraced, and that giving that
talk really enabled me to do a lot of reflection.
(26:35):
I really thinking, like you know, I I'm just in
the beginning of my journey of self love and self acceptance.
And it's just it was a really important tire for
me to really root out. Okay, like, what what are
the things that's that's called that's stopping me from fully
(26:56):
embracing myself? You know, what are the different fall narrative
I've always told myself about how I'm, how I'm supposed
to act, what I'm supposed to look like, And really think,
if you're what's that next step I can take to
truly self accept myself free from trying to to get
outside validation And how can I transition into you know,
(27:19):
surviving off of my own internal validation and internal self acceptance.
And that was really the premise of the talk I
gave UM for bt UM. You talked about how you
try to find other ways to fit in and feel
like you to be more acceptant in one of those
ways where you were wearing long weaves, and that's when
(27:40):
you start talking about the impostera syndrome. So can you
explain with the impostor syndrome is and how it was
affecting you. Yes, the imposter syndrome is when you know
you're you're in a position that you've worked hard for,
but no matter how much you've achieved, no matter how
much you've how much you've earned a spot to be there,
you you're always worried that that someone is going to
(28:02):
find out that or someone is going to you yourself
think you're not good enough, and they're always worried that
someone's going to discover that you're a fraud. You're always
questioning your worthiness of being in a certain position or
being in a certain space, and so you think you're
impostor um. You know, it's It's something that I've often
felt at the different schools I went to UM. You know,
(28:25):
maybe someone realizing that you know, I'm I'm not actually
smart enough to be here, you know, you know, believing
the things other people say of, well did I get
here just because affirmative action? Maybe I'm actually not as
smart as my as my white classmates, and let me
not speak up in class because if I answer the
question wrong, then they're gonna know that I I don't
actually belong here. And that's a fear that a lot
(28:48):
of marginalized people feel when we when we in spaces
that we we've earned our rights to be there, but
because we see so few examples, it's it's more natural
to question then why we're there in the first place.
So how do you overcome that? Yeah, that that is
really doing that work of self acceptance, confidence, self love. Um,
(29:15):
I have a black female therapist who I love, So
if you important, and I love therapy, so yes to therapy, yes, yes, yes, no,
And I think you know, black people just asks the community,
you know, if if anyone needs to listen. I think
we should have free therapy forever to there to work
(29:38):
through craziness people put through in this country. And it's
a lot of generational persons, everything just going on within
this country. These past couple of weeks have been so
difficult for me. So I know my therapist has been
very pleased with my payments because I've been talking her
head off. That's a it's alive exactly. So you know,
(30:04):
it's really trying to, you know, work through a lot
of these perceptions we've held about ourselves. You know, I
think a lot of us we learned to compartmentalize it
in order to move through the world, to walk through
our days. And it's exactly to show face. Um that's
a fact, but we really need to you know, reflect
(30:25):
the really confront a lot of these false narratives you've
been holding on too, and really work through rooting them
out versus just covering them up. Right. Um, So back
to the BT special. So the reason why this BT
special was one of my favorites because if you watch
her first head talk, you can tell that, I don't know,
(30:47):
you could tell that you were still trying to figure
things out within yourself. That's what I got from it.
And then to see where you was at with the
B E. T Talk and then you snatch your wig off,
and for one I was like yes, But I think
for me it was kind of like symbolism and it
sis like I'm finally here, like I see me from me,
and I think what really made me get emotional and
I started tearing up because it was just so many
(31:09):
different black women from a just probably in the twenties today,
early fifties, and they always just well you were speaking,
they was looking at you, and it's like I felt
like they stawed themselves in you. And I just thought
that was just so dope. Like I was just so
proud to see that moment. I know there had to
be a such a wonderfulfill into the experience because even
the older woman when the audience were like crying, Yeah,
(31:33):
I know that was that was crazy and it's like
you you have to be some arsed that perfectly that yes,
And I gave that ted talk. I was still working
through it. You know, if you think about where I
was in my life, I had really learned how to
compart to mentalize then, like how to show face and
how to fit in and smile for the white people
and like, you know, and just never really confronted a
(31:54):
lot of things. And you know, I forget that talk.
I'm like, you know, how can I say that I
am a confident, you know, strong black woman if my
greatest fear is getting you know, caught you know, outside
in public with without my weave, you know, and so
(32:16):
just you know, I'm really realizing, like, whoa, I that's
a huge part of myself that I've yet to accept.
And I know that this is something that so many
black women can relate to hair, you know, black hair,
what that means, and what that represents and all of that,
(32:37):
because for black women is not his hair. For black people,
it's not his hair. Hair has one of the things
that's been weaponized against us. So you know, we we
put a lot of value in our hair. And my hair.
For those that knew about the different curl type, it's foresty,
so it's you know, it's it's the curliest, it's the coyliest,
(32:59):
it's it's all that. And so just so much of
my struggle with self acceptance has been with you know,
me wish and I had quote unquote good hair and
so and it says I just had an experience. So
it's like my hairstyles was like you have to cancel
an appointment last minute, and so also wordable, my god,
(33:22):
I'm gonna look so crazy. He's gonna deal with my hair.
But I was like, you know, I just need to
be over this. And so I I remember I told
my friend camp kind of my hair, I'm just like, no,
do I told some things, you're depressed, I don't ee
think then I think you're going through something. You completely
cut off your hair, and I was like, no, Like
(33:44):
I am so tired of being I felt like being
a slave to my hair and like, you know, and
so I thought of them, and beach Here approached me.
I'm like, this is what I want to give my
talk about. I wanted to really chronicle my journey to
having the confidence to just cut off my hair, and um,
(34:08):
I don't want to I want to share it on
this stage with these women so they can kind of
see that progression and it's Cutting my hair was definitely
probably one of the top three best decisions of my life,
because I remember, like when I did that, it's like,
you know what, who knows that people are gonna think
I'm attractive? Who gets it that? It put me in
(34:31):
the space where I was forced to not rely on
outside validation. Um, And so that's it's it's the point
that I hope everyone gets to just knowing that you
don't need other people to validate your words, and you
know what, when when you snatched the wig off you
called me off guards because I wasn't expected. I said, Okay,
(34:53):
that's what we're doing. That's what we're doing. Has that
big top it literally, So where are you at now
with their journey and stuff? Love? Yeah, No, that's a
great question. You know, I've come a really long way,
but you know, there's there's still there's still work to
be done. I think it's it's like as as Missail
(35:15):
Obama says her books Becoming, We're always becoming U such
a great book, and so it's you know, always always developing.
I mean, I think I've come such a long way
from where I was and what when I gave that
Ted talk for your go to where I am now?
And I think I'm in a better position to really
share my testimony and speak with others and help others.
(35:38):
But they're still you know, I can get even you know,
further deep into truly rooting out and what are the
parts of me that I hide away? Why do I
hide that away? How can I trying to light and
embrace that? And I almost feel like I'm in a
bit of a timer. I'm I'm not married, I'm gonna relationship,
(35:58):
but I'm not married, but I know I kind of
had the sense of, you know, how do I want
to show up for my teacher daughters? And I know
that I need to be my most calm, Like there's
no way I can teach my daughters love themselves if
I don't really love my love myself. And so that's
why I'm like, you know, let me put in this
work so I can be a living example or my feature.
(36:24):
Well that's so funny because my next question is pertaining
to kids, because I was watching this documentary which I'm
pretty sure everybody saw um and it was just so sad,
like they literally broke my heart with a young girl
I think c and then did like a study on
young kids between the age just write A five and seven,
and the young girl was asked to place values based
on the color of the skin tone of the dolls,
(36:44):
and she was saying how the white doll was smart
and pretty when the dark skinned doll was just ugly
and dumb. And then or even when the little girl
went viral on the Instagram and she was saying how
ugly she was. That's gonna make me girl, I know,
And I was just like, I'm like, yo, like what
do we got to do to teach our kids, especially
(37:05):
these these young girls that they're beautiful, because like I
don't understand, like who's teaching them this? Ye that at
such a young age you think that, um, and and listen,
that's very top of mind for me. I'm very blessed.
My boyfriend is a very strong black man and he
is the kid top of the king Black love. And
(37:29):
so that's something that we think about and talk about.
It's like, all right, like what what is that environment
that we need to create so our black daughter knows
that she is beautiful and powerful and has no limits. Um.
So so yeah, we we are definitely going to be
those annoying parents that like after school you're going to
(37:51):
get a separate lesson which is on black culture and
you know drew black history. Um. And that's just really
my can sure that you know she's not just concerned
because you can't trust this regular media, right. I think
that's that's what perpetuates a lot obviously negative negative All right,
like haw me make sure that you know our what
(38:14):
we can control our community and what she's exposed to
is affirming. Mhm um, what's an advice she would give
to the Brownies best listener on embracing the skin that
they're in it. Yeah, my advice is to surround yourself
with life affirming people. Um. You know, surround yourself with
with people who let you just be as you are. UM.
(38:38):
I think a lot of time the difficulties happen when
we're younger and trying to fit into certain friend groups
or grab certain people at attention and just knowing that
you know you have value just being yourself. You don't
need to convince anyone else to to like you or
accept you. Um. And with at confidence, that's when you'll
(39:02):
then get get get the love, but at that inner love.
So I would say, you know, don't resist the temptation
to to look outside for someone to to validate you.
And is there anything else you would like to say
to the male listeners. I don't know why my male
listenership is growing because I stay talking about them. But
(39:24):
that's listening that continues to make comments or to put
light skin and dark skinned women against each other. Yes, no,
this is I think black men definitely, this is the
opportunity that you know, you could really be an ally
to your brown skin. You know, your brown skin friends,
you know, think about all the different brown skin women
(39:45):
in your life. You're you know, maybe your mother, you're sibling,
you know, you're friends, which I don't understand. You know,
it's always it's you know, in draft the Dark Girl's documentary,
because one girl's commenting about comments talking about comments are
cousin had made and it's like, you know, family. So
(40:06):
I really want this to be a call to action
to black men to see, Okay, how can you step
up as allies? So that way, when if you're in
a room where jokes are being made about putting down
dark skinned women, rather than just laughing along or thinking,
oh well, if I don't say anything, I'm not part
of the problem. You know, as as we're seeing in
this movement, you know, silence is just the same thing
(40:29):
as perpetuatedalnced. So you know, use your position to step
in and say hey, that's not cool, Hey that's not cool.
You know that that could be your mom, that's a
one's sister, um, and so you know, oftentimes, you know,
as a black women, we may not be in the room.
We're not in those locker room conversations. So I feel
(40:50):
like black men using your your privilege to stop a
lot of the negative things that are said about dark
skinned women. And remember, you're gonna have a black daughter
one day, so right, you don't want the body say
that about your daughter. I'm just curious what's next for
you within the whole colorism movement, because I feel like
(41:11):
there's so much more you can like be doing. I'm
pretty sure that you will be doing in the future.
So what's next. Yes, I definitely want to speak more,
find different opportunities to share my method. I would like
to work work more with with women about beyond just colorism,
but overall just self love, self empowerment, building confidence UM.
(41:34):
So being able to spread that message more, be a
talk like this, UM, different webinars when we're able to
be out of quarantine, whether it be a conferences, and
also even more one on one work, maybe more small
group work to really think about how we can as
a community build up UM love for love for ourselves.
(42:00):
Mm hmm. Well, I'm very super excited about this interview.
If you'll have any questions, comments you want to reach
out to my guests, please email me at Hello at
the PhD podcast dot com. To my guests, thank you
so much for sharing this conversation with me and until
next time. Everyone later, this was so much fun. Thank you,
(42:24):
thank you,
Welcome. You are now listening to the Professional h Professional.
(00:37):
Hey guys, welcome to this week's episode of the PhD Podcast.
It's your girl, eban A and like always, I am
super excited about this week's episode. Before we begin, let's
do some housekeeping. Please make sure to follow me on
Instagram at the Professional home Girl, at the PhD Podcast
and at eban A Beauty. Follow me on Twitter at
(00:59):
th h E p h G Underscore Show the website
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(02:02):
really dope stories that I've been working on, including a documentary,
but I need you all to support the kids. So
hold me down. Don't hold me up, niggas. Those that's
been sliding in my d M opened up that wallet
and show me some love and support me um. The
link will also be available in the show notes, so
(02:23):
please keep in mind that all of my guests are anonymous.
So let's begin this week's episode. Now, Before we begin
this week's episode, I want to do a humble flex
for my guests. She was a guest on the Red
Table Talk discussing colorism within our community. In addition, she
did a TED talk which was viewed over one million times.
(02:45):
She is a Harvard graduate and she received her NBA
from Stanford. I am beyond proud of her and I
am super excited to have her on the PhD Podcast.
So to my guests. How are you feeling. I am
feeling really good. It's really exciting, need to be here.
I love supporting just different platforms that amplify black voices.
(03:05):
So I'm feeling great. So once again, I just want
to say thank you so much for sharing your knowledge
and your story with us. This is one of those
episodes that is there to me because like Minnie Brownies,
I too experience colorism. So once again, thank you so much. Um,
when did you become so passionate about colorism? Yeah, that's
a great question. It's I mean, it's something I've always
(03:28):
lived with and known about, right so, or I guess
it's something I experienced before I knew what it was called.
And so you know, growing up while I grew up
in a in a neighborhood that did not have very
many black people, so one always kind of being on
the outside as one of the few black people. And
then you know, I kind of remember what I finally
(03:49):
was was able to be in spaces are an opportunities
with other black people, but still feeling lesser than or
still feeling marginalized. And I remember I had it first
became clear to me when you know, I was walking
through the mall. So that was some time in high school,
and it was me and my two friends. One of
(04:10):
my friends who was think complexion as me, you know,
brown skin girl, and my other friends. She's mixed to
was half black, half Mexican, so you know, very light skin,
you know, the long hair, blu curtain type of hair, right,
you know, and like, you know, all the guys would
kind of make a bee line to talk to her.
Um and my friend who who's brown skin like me,
(04:32):
she was like, you know, all the guys only like
her because she's light skinned. And I remember when she
said that, it was like a light bulb went off
and like that shed light and all the experiences that
if I've always had and how come I you know,
it was always passed over or you know, was you know,
wasn't I wasn't looked upon as as worthy or wasn't
(04:55):
looked upon as good enough. And I think it's even
more problem amongst women. You know, I have two brothers,
and you know, they like they definitely had a more
welcoming experience and men don't go through that for some reason.
Well I think they do a little bit, but not
nearly to the extent of that women do. And so
(05:18):
that that was the first time I was really able
to understand my experience of like, oh, that's why even
within black spaces, I'm still um, not as view I'm
still not viewed as as worth, you're not as not
viewed us favorably. And then it wasn't really until I
got to college where I took a lot of African
(05:40):
American studies, my the social studies made without the name
of my major, UM, and I focused on sociology and
even more specifically on like race and gender and identity
and all of that. And so that's when I was
really able to study black identity and you know, critical
race theory. And that's when I learned that this thing
had a name. It's called colorism, and you know, it
comes from slavery and and so that's that's always something
(06:03):
I was interested in. I know, I wrote my thesis
on black identity when I was in college. UM, and
so it's just you know, just because my own lived
experience is something that's always piqued my interest. Um. Then
when I got to grad school, there was a we
had a public speaking of course, if you will, and
(06:23):
I've always enjoyed public speaking black. In high school, I
was like in debate club and I did oratory, so
I'll give speeches, um, and so on this particular public
speaking class. UM, they said, you know you can to
the topic as of your choice. You know, the whole
objective is just to help you your presentation skills and
to coach you and things like that. So you know,
(06:44):
we're all able to pick a topic that we're passionate about.
And so I got into the class the year before,
so I had the summer to think about what I
wanted to talk about, and then the fall of the
next year because we meet our coaches and and we're
able to ask you prepare. And I've always known that
I wanted to talk about race and identity, like that's
always something I'm interested in, I'm passionate about and have
(07:05):
studied UM. And then it was the summer and that's
when I saw that thread up Compton casting call and
oh wait, wait, wait, we don't listen it. So I
feel like a lot of people don't understand what colorism is,
So can you explain it? Yes, So, colorism is discrimination
(07:26):
against those with a darker skin tone, and it typically
happens within the same racial group. And so within the
black community, it's one black people discriminate against other black
people for having darker skin. Um. And it happens in
other communities too. It's very prevalent in the Indian community
or the Southeast Asian community, um, you know, and they're
much more open about the you know, favoring lighter skin.
(07:50):
There's tons of bleaching cream or it's called brightening cream
or lightning cream. Um. Because know, a lot of Southeast
Asian Indian women really you know, are striving to be
fair skinned. UM. We see it a lot in you know,
Asian community, East Asian communities. You know, you see Korean culture,
Japanese culture ever wants to be white, white, white, and
(08:12):
those that are darker tanner um are definitely looked upon negatively.
So it's it's something that that you see globally, you know.
It's it really stems from the whether it's the from
in the US, the history of slavery um, and a
lot of other countries, the history of colonialism, and just
(08:34):
really that kind of Western the oppression that comes from
the Western Anglo world. That was gonna be my next question,
um winded colorism began because I remember you saying it
it started during slavery in the US. In the US,
it starting slavery, um, but you know it's been happening
(08:55):
even before them. We're looking globally, you know, even from
colonialism and you know the continent of Africa and India, um,
you know, and even before then, just that you know,
whether it's comes from that mindset of you know, the
elite class. They aren't doing hard labor, you know, they're
(09:17):
indoors and so to have darker skin that really means
that you're in the lower cast of society, which means
that you're working in the field there, you're out in
the sun doing more laborious work. Actually stems from many
different places in the US our history. Um, it begins
a slavery. So in what ways do you think that
(09:41):
we discriminate against each other within our community? Yeah, no,
a lot, definitely lots of different ways. And you know
there's the subtle ways of actually it's not even very subtle. Um.
You know, we see that preference of people feeling like,
you know, light skinned men or women are you guys
more desirable? You know, they're called more beautiful. Um. You know,
(10:06):
you're often hear things like you know, the girl with
the good hair, you know, don't stay in the sun.
You don't want to get too dark, um, you know,
and you hear it within within your your community like
oh no, she's so beautiful with her fair skin, and
you don't really hear that about drown skin, and so
(10:26):
I don't really age. You can pick up on the pattern.
You may not know what it's called, Like I didn't
know what it was called, but I can pick up
on the pattern, all right. One of the things that
I learned from you, it was the three tests that
determined how dark a woman was. And before you go
into the three tests, who came up with those tests? Yeah? No,
that's a great question, you know these tests have because
(10:47):
I couldn't find that answer for nothing. Yeah no, I
don't think of who would actually originated from. But definitely
it's them from the times, uh, you know, still dating
back to you know, I say, right after slavery and
you know, needing to define the black population and needing
(11:09):
and wanting to be able to you know, segment who
is allowed, who is allowed into certain spaces and certain
um social circles, and who had access to other types
to certain resources um and the unfortunate thing is, we
as black people are typically the ones that you know,
(11:30):
took on those classifications and you know, really utilize those tests.
I think part of it was for survival, you know,
like those that were you know when you're when you
had light of skin, that was a huge advantage, right,
you had better access to education, you had better access
to jobs. And you know, because the white people who
(11:50):
hold the access, you know, we we as black people,
wanted to be favorable to them. So to show that hey,
we're just like you. You know, look my my hey
is is straight. I can run a puncil through it.
Look my my skin isn't dark. And so to be
able to say, hey, well we are the black people
who are lighter skin and we are just like the
white people, you know, please give us these resources, Please
(12:13):
give us access to this education. They needed a way
to separate from those that weren't. Dean does work being
mm hmm. So how do you think that the media
plays a role in colorism? That is a great question.
The media plays a huge role in perpetuating it and
perpetuating it simply because you know, when you look on screen,
(12:37):
all the black people, you know, when they if they
only look a certain way, and if that way that
it looks like isn't the way you look like a
brown skin and curly hair, it sends a very clear
signal into what's acceptable. Right. Another thing about to my
attention was the partnership between Vasilin and Facebook. And when
(12:59):
I saw it, I was like, Yo, what is wrong
with people? You know? It's it's so crazy, And it's
so crazy because like here in the US, you never
see that, right, like here in the U. Right, But
to think about how today, like in twenty twenty, it
is perfectly acceptable to sell lightning cream in in other countries,
And it just shows that, like it's so deep rooted
(13:22):
and though in the US it's taboo, you're not allowed
to talk about it, those feelings have not yet been
rooted out, you know, And so you know, just the
fact that in other places you can still you know,
they still talked about so openly. It just shows that, hey,
that sentiment is still there. And the fact that the
(13:43):
lightning and bleaching cream is a multimillion dollar business, It's
just like, how is that even possible? Like is the
dead many people out there that's really changing their skin color?
I mean, it's it's crazy and even for me, it
was it was such an eye opening experience. Even at
the Red Table talk, one of the gats, her name
is Stacy Summers, who's so bread and absolutely incredible, she
(14:05):
talked about her skin weaking story, and I was like, WHOA,
I actually didn't know anyone in the US that that that.
And I'm from Nigeria, so I have family overseas, and
it's it's a bit more prevalent there, like you can
buy skin bleaching cream. It was never really done amongst
my family, but it's like there are people that that
(14:27):
do you buy that there? So I just I was
very surprised that he and at least in her community
in Florida, it was widespread. And so it's just once
again just a reminder that you know, those sentiments are
still there even if people don't explicitly say it. Um.
Those beliefs are still there, and it's perpetuated by you know,
who's on the cover of a magazine who gets pass
(14:48):
for certain roles um. And then as the brown skin girls,
we feel it right ian f its never explicitly spoken about,
we can feel that preference and we all for the
same thing. Another story that went by it was the
straight at the content casting call sheet. So when you
broke that down, I was like, Yo, that's just so
(15:11):
crazy to me that somebody was that boat to even
write that down and people were going to buy it, right,
So that you know that it was that casting call
that moved me to that That's when I knew, oh,
I'm not talking gonna be about colorism. It's not the
thing about bracing them specifically about colorism. And that was
a turning point for me. Really, it's really turning point
(15:38):
for me because I I felt like Summer well, I
feel like it was the start of what I'll called
this kind of like black renaissance in Hollywood. Whereas I think, now,
you know, we there's so many um there's way more
content for us than there was for a very long time, right,
(15:58):
but they're insecure that black canther. You know, there's a
moonlight won an oscar like, so there was more excitement now.
But I remember once Day Panting came back, that was
still kind of the beginning of this resurgence of black art.
And I was so excited for that movie because I'm
from l a Um. The Storm but still from l
(16:21):
a Um. I remember just being so excited for this,
like mainly black cast telling the story about black people
in l A. And I remember that whole summer I
had felt so seen. I saw the movie three times
in theaters, like I was just I was so hype
about that movie and stories being told and just you know,
(16:43):
black excellence being shown. Because when I came across that
casting call, it really felt like a slap in the face.
How did you come across? Like on Facebook, it was
starts lating around like it was. It was huge that
call came out. It was like no spread out of Compton,
you know casting call or you know, this racist casting call,
(17:05):
And it broke my heart because I was like, whoa, Like,
these are the people the community where I can finally
be seen because I've spent most of my time in
predominant white institutions, predominant predominantly white spaces, so you know, I,
you know, I've always found a lot of solace in
(17:26):
the black community. Um and so, but the black community
does have its own prejudices, and so this read that
casting call with this painful reminder that even within the
one space right I should feel safe and accepted and seen,
you know, within the black community, even there there's still
(17:47):
divisions and discrimination and preferences of which I am in
the unfavorable bucket. And so yeah, when I was doing
some touch because I watched the documentary Dark Girls, and
everybody just kept saying the same thing. Even Um, one
of the guests in the Red Tables, her daughter said it,
(18:08):
and she was saying how white people made her feel
more appreciative of her skin color than black people. Hey guys,
the PhD podcast is sponsored by eban A Beauty and
A Beauty is a beauty company that I found it
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A Beauty used the code and let's get back to
this week's episode. And I thought that was crazy because
(18:51):
I'm like, how can black how can black people make
you feel a certain way towards your own complexion. But
I'm from the South, and I was always being told
that I was pretty for a dark skinned girl, and
I used to be like, what the hell does that
even mean? Yeah, No, I think about that a lot.
I think I think it stems a lot from our
own as a community, you know. I think it's something
(19:14):
the fact that I think as a black community, there's
a lot of just self hate ingrained within the community,
which is which is really unfortunate. And I don't think
it's a matter of well, whether or not you have
a little self esteem or whether or not you have confidence.
I just think as a community, I think about our
parson in the US, we've you know, we've been taught
(19:34):
to not not like our blackness, and that's been for survival,
you know, Like for so it's been a matter of
survival to distance ourselves from our blackness. And so I
think that you know, has just been so ingrained within
our psyche as a community that I think that's why
(19:54):
as black people were more noticeable of distancing ourselves from
you know, very dark skinned, very kinky hair, you know,
like we've been so programmed to know that, hey, those
types of things might hold me back. Those types of
things you know, can will hinder me from success in
(20:15):
a way that as a white person, they just see
a black person with your light skinned or dark standards
like you're black, which just means that you are not white,
which treature accordingly. But for you know, as a black community,
as we're trying to get ahead, and we can pick
up on the signals from society, and the signal term
society is that you need to align yourself as close
(20:36):
to whiteness as possible. That's a fact. That's so after
these companies show support when it comes to break in
society standards of what beauty is. That is a great question.
And I will say this, and I will say this forever.
I will forever be a Rihanna stand because of Fenty.
(20:57):
And that signifies so much because any brand could have
done what Fenty did. They just didn't want to. Any brand,
all these billion dollar beauty companies they could have, They
have the formulations, they have the money, they just didn't
think that it They didn't see the market value of it.
(21:18):
So the fact that Rihanna could come out and be like,
I am going to have a brand whose mission is
to serve you know, browns, could women of all shades,
and the fact that she was able to be so
successful and now all these other legacy beauty companies are like,
oh wait, well now we need to do this that too,
And so, you know, I think it's very easy for
(21:40):
the people at the top to you know, just look
at black people as almost like like like a line
item and very quickly see, well, well, how much money
will I make by focusing on this on this market
segment and if and if it's it's not gonna be profitable,
then then why doesn't matter? Um? And so you know,
(22:01):
not not viewing you know, as as a people as
just um, a market segment that you can do the
math and say, hey, it's not profitable to focus on them,
so we're not going to and really seeing it as like, hey,
these are people whose you know, needs and wants aren't
currently being serviced, and so what can I do to
(22:26):
to service this market? I'm just curious, So what is
your thoughts who all these companies coming out now saying
black lives matter, we support black people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's it's been interesting Instagram and you know, I'm seeing
companies and it's no it's it's hard to say until
(22:47):
unless I'm in that particular company, right, So, because it's
at the end of the day, you hope it's authentic,
and you hope it's genuine, and you hope that you know,
I think this was a wake up call. This, this
moment um with George Floyd has really been a wake
up call for a lot of non black people that like,
(23:08):
oh wait, like something is going is going on. Maybe
because of since Corona were all inside and have had
less distractions, we're able to two it in a bit more.
But it's definitely been a wake up call. So the
question is, um, is this was this a wake up
call that, oh well I really need to reflect and
think about how I've been participating in um, you know,
(23:31):
anti black sentiments and how I can change versus well,
what's the Instagram post I need to put up so
I don't get dragged? And it's hard to say from
the outside. Um, So you know, my my only ask
is that you know, if anyone that's listening to this,
that's that's working somewhere, is you know, let's let's hope
that the leadership is genuine and that's being held accountable. Yeah,
(23:57):
I can't wait to see these people leadership boards because
a lot of people want to be pro black and
black lives matter, but representation matters, and I don't see
a lot of black people at these boards meeting. So
let's see, right, so exactly and so and this is
you know, I feel like this is will be a
big opportunity for a lot of black people that have
been overlooked, like there was no way someone can be
(24:20):
to you now you know, right, this is the perfect
time for you. Gotta get your stuff out. Yeah, have
your start up there like people brought like you're gonna
get fund being like this is the time because everybody
got money for black people. So one of my favorite
talks that you did was on bat and you gave
your thoughts on how beauteous to find by men. So
(24:42):
I want you to share with the listeners. But before
you do, one of the things that you did when
they talk and when you gave the definition, how you
feel about how many of you be women? A lot
of the women the audience were black women, and they
were just shaking their heads and agreeing with you, and
some people was even like tearing up. How did that
make you feel? Yeah, I know that talk was that
(25:06):
was amazing. I think that was one of your best talks.
Like I was, like, I even started tearing up, and
I'm gonna talk about why I teared up later, but
go ahead, I saying thank you so much. Yeah, that
was Can I did that talk? Um, I gotta maybe
six months after my Ted talk and I almost do
that as part two. Um. I definitely see the growth
between part one with the Ted talk and part two
(25:29):
to where you was at. And I'm gonna explain that later,
but go ahead, yeah. Yeah, And so I don't I
don't want to get way whatever you're gonna explain, So
I'll just kind of talk about, um, how I how
I felt about my thought was is so after the
the Ted talk and the big thing with the Ted talk,
it was it was my opportunity to um shared this,
share what this phenomenon of colorism was to to my audience.
(25:52):
And remember I gave this in grad school Stanford that
doesn't have that many black people. So it was more
so like explaining to the audience, Hey, this is what
rhythm is. You guys may never have heard about it,
but this is what it is that affects a lot
of people. And it's affected me and how that's something
that I'm still working through is how can I really um,
(26:13):
you know, love my blackness? And you know, how how
do I really you know, I I say, you know,
I'm a strong black woman, I'm smart, blah blah blah.
But you know, there's always been that this part of
me that I never fully embraced, and that giving that
talk really enabled me to do a lot of reflection.
(26:35):
I really thinking, like you know, I I'm just in
the beginning of my journey of self love and self acceptance.
And it's just it was a really important tire for
me to really root out. Okay, like, what what are
the things that's that's called that's stopping me from fully
(26:56):
embracing myself? You know, what are the different fall narrative
I've always told myself about how I'm, how I'm supposed
to act, what I'm supposed to look like, And really think,
if you're what's that next step I can take to
truly self accept myself free from trying to to get
outside validation And how can I transition into you know,
(27:19):
surviving off of my own internal validation and internal self acceptance.
And that was really the premise of the talk I
gave UM for bt UM. You talked about how you
try to find other ways to fit in and feel
like you to be more acceptant in one of those
ways where you were wearing long weaves, and that's when
(27:40):
you start talking about the impostera syndrome. So can you
explain with the impostor syndrome is and how it was
affecting you. Yes, the imposter syndrome is when you know
you're you're in a position that you've worked hard for,
but no matter how much you've achieved, no matter how
much you've how much you've earned a spot to be there,
you you're always worried that that someone is going to
(28:02):
find out that or someone is going to you yourself
think you're not good enough, and they're always worried that
someone's going to discover that you're a fraud. You're always
questioning your worthiness of being in a certain position or
being in a certain space, and so you think you're
impostor um. You know, it's It's something that I've often
felt at the different schools I went to UM. You know,
(28:25):
maybe someone realizing that you know, I'm I'm not actually
smart enough to be here, you know, you know, believing
the things other people say of, well did I get
here just because affirmative action? Maybe I'm actually not as
smart as my as my white classmates, and let me
not speak up in class because if I answer the
question wrong, then they're gonna know that I I don't
actually belong here. And that's a fear that a lot
(28:48):
of marginalized people feel when we when we in spaces
that we we've earned our rights to be there, but
because we see so few examples, it's it's more natural
to question then why we're there in the first place.
So how do you overcome that? Yeah, that that is
really doing that work of self acceptance, confidence, self love. Um,
(29:15):
I have a black female therapist who I love, So
if you important, and I love therapy, so yes to therapy, yes, yes, yes, no,
And I think you know, black people just asks the community,
you know, if if anyone needs to listen. I think
we should have free therapy forever to there to work
(29:38):
through craziness people put through in this country. And it's
a lot of generational persons, everything just going on within
this country. These past couple of weeks have been so
difficult for me. So I know my therapist has been
very pleased with my payments because I've been talking her
head off. That's a it's alive exactly. So you know,
(30:04):
it's really trying to, you know, work through a lot
of these perceptions we've held about ourselves. You know, I
think a lot of us we learned to compartmentalize it
in order to move through the world, to walk through
our days. And it's exactly to show face. Um that's
a fact, but we really need to you know, reflect
(30:25):
the really confront a lot of these false narratives you've
been holding on too, and really work through rooting them
out versus just covering them up. Right. Um, So back
to the BT special. So the reason why this BT
special was one of my favorites because if you watch
her first head talk, you can tell that, I don't know,
(30:47):
you could tell that you were still trying to figure
things out within yourself. That's what I got from it.
And then to see where you was at with the
B E. T Talk and then you snatch your wig off,
and for one I was like yes, But I think
for me it was kind of like symbolism and it
sis like I'm finally here, like I see me from me,
and I think what really made me get emotional and
I started tearing up because it was just so many
(31:09):
different black women from a just probably in the twenties today,
early fifties, and they always just well you were speaking,
they was looking at you, and it's like I felt
like they stawed themselves in you. And I just thought
that was just so dope. Like I was just so
proud to see that moment. I know there had to
be a such a wonderfulfill into the experience because even
the older woman when the audience were like crying, Yeah,
(31:33):
I know that was that was crazy and it's like
you you have to be some arsed that perfectly that yes,
And I gave that ted talk. I was still working
through it. You know, if you think about where I
was in my life, I had really learned how to
compart to mentalize then, like how to show face and
how to fit in and smile for the white people
and like, you know, and just never really confronted a
(31:54):
lot of things. And you know, I forget that talk.
I'm like, you know, how can I say that I
am a confident, you know, strong black woman if my
greatest fear is getting you know, caught you know, outside
in public with without my weave, you know, and so
(32:16):
just you know, I'm really realizing, like, whoa, I that's
a huge part of myself that I've yet to accept.
And I know that this is something that so many
black women can relate to hair, you know, black hair,
what that means, and what that represents and all of that,
(32:37):
because for black women is not his hair. For black people,
it's not his hair. Hair has one of the things
that's been weaponized against us. So you know, we we
put a lot of value in our hair. And my hair.
For those that knew about the different curl type, it's foresty,
so it's you know, it's it's the curliest, it's the coyliest,
(32:59):
it's it's all that. And so just so much of
my struggle with self acceptance has been with you know,
me wish and I had quote unquote good hair and
so and it says I just had an experience. So
it's like my hairstyles was like you have to cancel
an appointment last minute, and so also wordable, my god,
(33:22):
I'm gonna look so crazy. He's gonna deal with my hair.
But I was like, you know, I just need to
be over this. And so I I remember I told
my friend camp kind of my hair, I'm just like, no,
do I told some things, you're depressed, I don't ee
think then I think you're going through something. You completely
cut off your hair, and I was like, no, Like
(33:44):
I am so tired of being I felt like being
a slave to my hair and like, you know, and
so I thought of them, and beach Here approached me.
I'm like, this is what I want to give my
talk about. I wanted to really chronicle my journey to
having the confidence to just cut off my hair, and um,
(34:08):
I don't want to I want to share it on
this stage with these women so they can kind of
see that progression and it's Cutting my hair was definitely
probably one of the top three best decisions of my life,
because I remember, like when I did that, it's like,
you know what, who knows that people are gonna think
I'm attractive? Who gets it that? It put me in
(34:31):
the space where I was forced to not rely on
outside validation. Um, And so that's it's it's the point
that I hope everyone gets to just knowing that you
don't need other people to validate your words, and you
know what, when when you snatched the wig off you
called me off guards because I wasn't expected. I said, Okay,
(34:53):
that's what we're doing. That's what we're doing. Has that
big top it literally, So where are you at now
with their journey and stuff? Love? Yeah, No, that's a
great question. You know, I've come a really long way,
but you know, there's there's still there's still work to
be done. I think it's it's like as as Missail
(35:15):
Obama says her books Becoming, We're always becoming U such
a great book, and so it's you know, always always developing.
I mean, I think I've come such a long way
from where I was and what when I gave that
Ted talk for your go to where I am now?
And I think I'm in a better position to really
share my testimony and speak with others and help others.
(35:38):
But they're still you know, I can get even you know,
further deep into truly rooting out and what are the
parts of me that I hide away? Why do I
hide that away? How can I trying to light and
embrace that? And I almost feel like I'm in a
bit of a timer. I'm I'm not married, I'm gonna relationship,
(35:58):
but I'm not married, but I know I kind of
had the sense of, you know, how do I want
to show up for my teacher daughters? And I know
that I need to be my most calm, Like there's
no way I can teach my daughters love themselves if
I don't really love my love myself. And so that's
why I'm like, you know, let me put in this
work so I can be a living example or my feature.
(36:24):
Well that's so funny because my next question is pertaining
to kids, because I was watching this documentary which I'm
pretty sure everybody saw um and it was just so sad,
like they literally broke my heart with a young girl
I think c and then did like a study on
young kids between the age just write A five and seven,
and the young girl was asked to place values based
on the color of the skin tone of the dolls,
(36:44):
and she was saying how the white doll was smart
and pretty when the dark skinned doll was just ugly
and dumb. And then or even when the little girl
went viral on the Instagram and she was saying how
ugly she was. That's gonna make me girl, I know,
And I was just like, I'm like, yo, like what
do we got to do to teach our kids, especially
(37:05):
these these young girls that they're beautiful, because like I
don't understand, like who's teaching them this? Ye that at
such a young age you think that, um, and and listen,
that's very top of mind for me. I'm very blessed.
My boyfriend is a very strong black man and he
is the kid top of the king Black love. And
(37:29):
so that's something that we think about and talk about.
It's like, all right, like what what is that environment
that we need to create so our black daughter knows
that she is beautiful and powerful and has no limits. Um.
So so yeah, we we are definitely going to be
those annoying parents that like after school you're going to
(37:51):
get a separate lesson which is on black culture and
you know drew black history. Um. And that's just really
my can sure that you know she's not just concerned
because you can't trust this regular media, right. I think
that's that's what perpetuates a lot obviously negative negative All right,
like haw me make sure that you know our what
(38:14):
we can control our community and what she's exposed to
is affirming. Mhm um, what's an advice she would give
to the Brownies best listener on embracing the skin that
they're in it. Yeah, my advice is to surround yourself
with life affirming people. Um. You know, surround yourself with
with people who let you just be as you are. UM.
(38:38):
I think a lot of time the difficulties happen when
we're younger and trying to fit into certain friend groups
or grab certain people at attention and just knowing that
you know you have value just being yourself. You don't
need to convince anyone else to to like you or
accept you. Um. And with at confidence, that's when you'll
(39:02):
then get get get the love, but at that inner love.
So I would say, you know, don't resist the temptation
to to look outside for someone to to validate you.
And is there anything else you would like to say
to the male listeners. I don't know why my male
listenership is growing because I stay talking about them. But
(39:24):
that's listening that continues to make comments or to put
light skin and dark skinned women against each other. Yes, no,
this is I think black men definitely, this is the
opportunity that you know, you could really be an ally
to your brown skin. You know, your brown skin friends,
you know, think about all the different brown skin women
(39:45):
in your life. You're you know, maybe your mother, you're sibling,
you know, you're friends, which I don't understand. You know,
it's always it's you know, in draft the Dark Girl's documentary,
because one girl's commenting about comments talking about comments are
cousin had made and it's like, you know, family. So
(40:06):
I really want this to be a call to action
to black men to see, Okay, how can you step
up as allies? So that way, when if you're in
a room where jokes are being made about putting down
dark skinned women, rather than just laughing along or thinking,
oh well, if I don't say anything, I'm not part
of the problem. You know, as as we're seeing in
this movement, you know, silence is just the same thing
(40:29):
as perpetuatedalnced. So you know, use your position to step
in and say hey, that's not cool, Hey that's not cool.
You know that that could be your mom, that's a
one's sister, um, and so you know, oftentimes, you know,
as a black women, we may not be in the room.
We're not in those locker room conversations. So I feel
(40:50):
like black men using your your privilege to stop a
lot of the negative things that are said about dark
skinned women. And remember, you're gonna have a black daughter
one day, so right, you don't want the body say
that about your daughter. I'm just curious what's next for
you within the whole colorism movement, because I feel like
(41:11):
there's so much more you can like be doing. I'm
pretty sure that you will be doing in the future.
So what's next. Yes, I definitely want to speak more,
find different opportunities to share my method. I would like
to work work more with with women about beyond just colorism,
but overall just self love, self empowerment, building confidence UM.
(41:34):
So being able to spread that message more, be a
talk like this, UM, different webinars when we're able to
be out of quarantine, whether it be a conferences, and
also even more one on one work, maybe more small
group work to really think about how we can as
a community build up UM love for love for ourselves.
(42:00):
Mm hmm. Well, I'm very super excited about this interview.
If you'll have any questions, comments you want to reach
out to my guests, please email me at Hello at
the PhD podcast dot com. To my guests, thank you
so much for sharing this conversation with me and until
next time. Everyone later, this was so much fun. Thank you,
(42:24):
thank you,
Host
Eboné Almon
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