The Professional Homegirl Podcast: My Ex Was A Serial Killer

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome one and all to the Professional Homegirl Podcast. Before
we begin today's episode, we want to remind you that
the views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those
of the hosts and guests and are intended for educational
and entertaining purposes. In this safe space, no question is
off limits because you never know how someone's storyline can
be your lifeline. The Professional Homegirl Podcast is here to

(00:22):
celebrate the diverse voices, stories and experiences of women of color,
providing a platform for authentic and empowering conversations. There will
be some key king, some tears, but most importantly a
reminder that tough times don't last, but professional Homegirls do
enjoy the show.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
Hey, professional Homegirls. It Isha girl Ebine here and I hope, okay,
I hope all is cute because I know we love
some cuteness. Now, okay, now, before we dive into this
week's episode, let's take a moment for a little bit
of housekeeping. So, y'all, I am super excited to share

(01:08):
that we are gearing up for the very first annual
the Professional Homegirl Turkey Drive. This has been a dream
of mine for many years, and I am confident that
with your support this year would be a tremendous success.
Our goal is to feed one hundred families in Mephis
and I need your health professional homegirls to make it happen.

(01:29):
As professional homegirls, not only are we known for our
genna sae quhay okay, because y'all know all we the
badest and the bestest, but we're also known for our
generosity and compassion. If you're able, please click the donate
link in the show notes below to contribute. Remember every donation,
no matter how small, will go directly to providing turkeys
for families in need. Now, let's come together to make

(01:52):
a meaningful impact this holiday season and show our community
the power of kindness and support. Thank you all in
advance for your generosity. Also, I received a love letter
from our professional homegirl Dana and it reads, I just
found your podcast. I am a rupture brain ANEURYSM survivor
and had to respond, I just survived one in April

(02:14):
and this podcast is what I needed. Crazy good How
God helps you find what it is that you need.
Wanted to reach out to both of you and thank
you for your words, generosity, and wisdom. We as women
need to support so much look forward to listening to more.
So shout out to our Professional Homegirl Dana. Y'all. I

(02:35):
really love when y'all see me love letters, so please
continue to email me at Hello at thephgpodcast dot com. Also,
we have a lot of listeners here, so don't forget
to follow me on all social media platforms at the
Professional Homegirl and at the PHG podcast. Hold Me Down,
Don't hold me up Now. For this week's episode, my

(02:58):
guest life took a dramatic turn when she met her
ex on a dating app. Despite a nagging sense that
something was wrong, societal precious led her to stay in
this relationship. The situation became so tragic when she discovered
that not only were her ax a serial killer, but
he also took the life of their son, Prince. In

(03:20):
this episode, my guests were revealed the painful details of
her journey, including her ex conviction currently serving life without parole.
We'll also cover her experience as a single mother by
choice following this devastating laws and the advice she hopes
to pass on to her daughters. We'll discuss how this

(03:40):
experience reshaped her views on family courts, trust and forgiveness,
and how societal expectations influenced her choices. Y'all get ready,
because my ex was a serial killer. Starts now. So
to my guests, thank you so much for being on
a show. Thanks for having me of course. How are
you doing. How you feeling?

Speaker 3 (04:01):
Uh, feeling good. It's you know, the struggle is real.
It's a Thursday.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
So we were just talking about what I was telling her.
I think they putting something in the air because I
was like super tired. And then she was telling me
about you know, it's the first week of school, so
she's been super busy where her kids.

Speaker 3 (04:20):
Yeah, I have their intwo. They're in two separate campuses
this year, so I feel like I'm being stretched into
separate directions. So it's been a struggle.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, that's all. Hard to get a drink, Yaga, she
like she over it. Yes, Well, how was your vacation.

Speaker 3 (04:38):
Uh it was good, it was really good. We go
to coastry. You've been going to Costa Rica for like
three years now, as at the end of the summer,
and it's just like always it's like my happy place
because it's such a chill environment and it's like place
where you can sort of come off the stress of

(04:58):
the United States, and so it's always a really good recharge.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, I love Coasta Reco. What makes you go there
every year?

Speaker 3 (05:06):
Like I mean I first went, it was like twenty
twenty one, right after things what after they had really
just like reopened the border after COVID, and I just, yeah,
I just fell in love with it, Like it's just
so laid back and a really kid friendly place. And
so then I found a summer camp there that that

(05:28):
my kids can go to, and so they go to
camp and usually it's a local well I don't know
about all that, but it's a great it's a great
like language camp that they go to for a couple
of weeks in the summer, and it allows me to
like still work for part of the trip, so I
don't have to take off the whole time. Yeah, and

(05:50):
they have fun and we all surf and do just
like you know, just really fun vacation y type stuff.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
So yeah, and the food there is really good, y'all
should Yeah amazing. Now I was telling you this off air,
but when I was reading your book the whole time,
I was just like, WTF. So do you ever look
back in your life and think to yourself like how
did all this happen?

Speaker 3 (06:15):
I have had those moments, for sure, but I try
not to be that type of person that's like, oh
my gosh, you know, I'm like suck in this victimhood
of like all this stuff happening to me. Right, I
have learned that, you know, there's just there's scary people
out there, and I think this could really happen to anyone.

(06:38):
And for sure, I think I was fairly naive when
I met him, So I think, yeah, there's definitely like
risk factors that I had that I probably that at
least for me as a parent, I'm trying to teach
my daughters recognize those sorts of things so that they
do not repeat the same mistakes that I made. But yeah,

(06:59):
I mean, I don't necessarily feel that I am like
highly unlucky or you know, I have because because I
don't actually feel that way. I think I am very
fortunate and I've had a lot of amazing blessings in
my life. But I you know, I just think, yeah,
I am a person who had a terrible tragedy happened

(07:19):
to me. But I think that, you know, a lot
of people live through really terrible things so I don't
necessarily think that, Yeah, I don't. I try not to
dwell too much on like, oh, my gosh, this happened
to me, because I also don't want it to be
like a defining moment in my life.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
Right, you know. That's one of my next question about
after all these years, have there been any misconceptions about
your story that you like to address? And one of
the things that I felt like is very relatable is
that this can happen to anyone.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
Yeah, I think there is a lot of misconception. I
think there's it's actually psychologically protect to hear about tragedies
like this. You know, hear about women and sometimes men too,
who fall in love with psychopaths and have horrible things
happen to them. It's protective to think that to kind

(08:14):
of take this mentality of like, oh, they must have
been a bad person themselves, or it must be something
wrong with him that they didn't pick up on this, right.
And I think a lot of people think that way
because it helps them feel safe walking through the world
thinking like that could never happen to me. And I
think we see like a similar mentality with like school shootings,
for example, people know that the United States is very dangerous.

(08:37):
They know that we have this obsession with violence, and
yet every single time it happens, they're like, oh my gosh,
I can't believe this happened to me. And I'm like,
we're really like can't.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
Right.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
So I think it's just I mean, I think we
have to sort of wake up as a culture and realize, like,
you are not immune to this. And typically people who
are dangerous and scary like this, they're not going to
go pick somebody else who's also dangerous, scary, dangerous and scary.
They're going to pick somebody who is caring, who is empathic,

(09:10):
and just a good person and a good person, right,
They're going to for good people because why would they
go back, Why would they go after someone as evil
as they are. They don't want to get themselves into it, right, right.
So I do think that there is a common misconception
or I don't even know if it's a misconception or
really just I think it's this protective mechanism. People have
to try and focus on what the person did to

(09:34):
get themselves in that situation instead of focusing on what
is so society we're doing that is creating these people.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, you know, you also make another good point because
my cousin he thinks I'm crazy, but I was like,
I think it's time that we start teaching my niece
how to survive, God forbid if there's a school shooting,
because there was just a school shooting well a day
or two ago in Atlanta. And he was like, well,
I don't want to put fear on her. I say, yeah,
but I also want her to be prepared. Unfortunately, but yeah.

Speaker 3 (10:03):
And I think that, you know, I think that we
also need to start talking about toxic masculinity, we start
talking about the culture of violence that we have in
this country.

Speaker 4 (10:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
Just today at my daughter's school, there was a bunch
of little boys that were taking off their shirts and
wrestling on the ground right on school grounds, right, and
the parents were standing there laughing about it. And I
was mortified. I was like, this is not funny. And
it's like Lord of the Flies, And I'm like, did
you ever read Lord of the Flies? Like Lord of
the Fries was literally about like the moral depravity that

(10:37):
happens without like parental oversight, right right. And I'm thinking
to myself, I'm like, why would you be laughing about this,
about your kids sitting here fighting on school grounds with
their shirts off, right in the middle of the day,
like and so I think about these things, and I'm like,
I think one of the misconceptions in society is that

(10:58):
we don't like to hold ourselves accountable for the culture
that we're creating, and then when it happens to us, we're.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
Like, oh my god, I'm a surprised.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
I can't believe this, Like, right, we're all contributing to it, right,
every single parent who was sitting there looking at that
and not saying anything about it. And even my five
year old I asked her, I said, you know, did
any of the girls take off their shirts and started fighting?
And she looked at me like I was crazy, and
she's like, no, Mama, they know we can't, like we
know we can't get away with that. And I'm like,
you know, at five years old, we have already internalized

(11:30):
here that women cannot get away with or you know,
it's like somehow okay for men to act a certain way,
and so it's like it's all fun and games until
those little boys become men who as salt and rape people,
and we all act like we don't know where it
came from. It's like, I know where it came from.
It came from the playground when we're sitting around watching

(11:51):
and not doing anything about it.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
You know, I have a whole section about this. But
the other person that was also the coprit in your story,
I feel like with society, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
I mean it's not just so I tell people a
lot that. You know, people are like, oh, well, are
you angry at your ex or like, you know, do
you feel like justice was served? And I think that
the thing I tried to get across in my book
was like, my son's father is not the demon in
the story, right, Like, to me, yeah, it's not that

(12:25):
he's not responsible for what he did. He absolutely is,
and he's a horrible person who deserves to rot in
prison for the rest of his life. However, the demon
in my story is the system. Yeah, like the like
literally injustice system, right, because this man was enabled for
over a decade and son wasn't even the first person

(12:47):
he killed. So we can look at the situation and
be like, Okay, he did this, But the thing that
really keeps me up at night is that the people
who enabled him are still walking the streets making the mistakes,
having not learned from what happened.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Still protecting the law. Exactly what was your life like
before you met Prince Father? Because I feel like you
was lit like you had a good job, You was
a CIA agent, you had todt.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
A great job. I was over educated. Yeah, I came
from you know, a good family, you know. I think
I think if I were just to describe me, I
was very naive, you know. And I was taught that
you don't judge a book by its cover. You know,
That's not what I'm teaching my kids. I'm going to

(13:40):
teach my kids. If you have a weird feeling in
your gut about what books or acts, you know, it's
okay to keep it moving. And that's not being mean,
that's being self protective. And I think, yeah, like, I
think there was somebody who, right after my son died,
had the nerve to say, well, you know, mother Teresa

(14:02):
never falls for Saddam Hussein. And I think the whole
idea is she was trying to say, oh, there must
be something wrong with me, because I think and I
was like, actually, mother Teresa is the kind of person
who does fall from Saddam Hussein. Because that type of
person is going to try to see the good in everybody, right, yeah,
and so I'm like, that's your flawed, like your logic
is flawed.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Mm hmm. Now can you share how you first met
Prince Father and what were your initial impressions of him?
Because when I was reading, I was like, come on, now,
come on.

Speaker 3 (14:31):
Now, right, I mean, okay, I think I say this
in the book, like society is a traitor's bitch, right,
society as a traders be.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
No, we ocur because the whole time was like girl
like this nigga is trash, Like, oh, he was terrible,
he was terrible, sounded crazy.

Speaker 3 (14:52):
I think I think that, you know, I won't lie.
I was not in the best place when I met him.
I was, you know, I had just returned from serving overseas,
and anyone who has been in sort of like a
US government overseas state department, military, they're also like similar

(15:13):
in this way, people get married very young, and it's
typically I was at it. I was stationed in a
place where everyone was married. It was pretty much just
like me and the really young Marines that weren't. Yeah,
and I felt like I had just spent years with
people being like, why are you still single? Like what's

(15:34):
wrong with you? Why are you still single? Mind you?
I was still much twenties, so it's not like I was,
you know, like pushing fifty or anything, right single was
I was super young, and so when I came back,
I think that was weighing on me. You know, I
felt like I was running out of time, even though
that sounds silly now, you know, like in my early forties,
I'm like, okay, like this is ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
I had a desible society. Will that's how to make
you feel?

Speaker 3 (15:57):
Yeah, And I felt like I was rushed And I remember,
you know, it really was a perfect storm, like we
had just had a snowmagedd in in Washington, DC. I
was just starting to sort of try to meet people.
And at the time, internet dating was not that popular.
I mean, everybody was doing it, but nobody was willing
to admit that they were doing it right, but there

(16:20):
was really it was really hard to organically meet people,
similar to how it is now, really right, because I
wasn't in school anymore. I didn't want to date anyone
that I had worked with right, been there, done that,
didn't want to do it again. And I was kind
of craving a relationship with somebody who was not in
my circle. I was like, I want someone out of

(16:42):
my circle. In hindsight, I'm like, there is safety and
dating someone who like you at least can vet through friends.
But that's a whole other thing, right, And so another
mistake I think I made was that because it was
snowing outside and we couldn't actually leave, we had had
several phone conversations, and you know, you can't really catch

(17:04):
a vibe for someone over the phone, like you're hearing
them and like he was a great storyteller, and so
we spent several times on the phone, and by the
time we met up in person, I kind of had
this like false sense of loyalty where I was like, oh,
I have to see this through because we had such
a good conversation. And again going back to like, you know,
the first time I saw him, he did not look

(17:25):
like his pictures, and I had a feeling in the
pit of my stomach, Like I remember talking to my friend.
I was like, Lisa, he doesn't look like the pictures,
and Lisa's like, you gotta go go, just leave, and
I was like, I can't leave. That's mean, and you know,
in hindsight, I'm like, I should have left, right, I
should have.

Speaker 5 (17:41):
Just left, Yeah, But I didn't because I had this
feeling of like, oh, well, that's really mean to like
look at someone and be like, oh, I don't want
to sit and have coffee with you because you like
look a.

Speaker 3 (17:54):
Certain way, you know. Yeah, But realistically, like when you're dating,
if you think someone's not your jam, it's not mean.
You could just be like, okay, like you can't fish
me right, Like these pictures are not like right, it
looks like him. It just looked like he was much older,
and just there was something about his vibe that was off.
I was like, it just doesn't something's not.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
The way he dressed, the way he described he.

Speaker 3 (18:17):
Dressed, that something was off right. But I think the
hard part and like anyone who's dealt with a psychopath
and I don't even say narcissistic personality, because I feel
like there is a difference between psychopath and somebody who's
even just on the spectrum. But people like this have
a tendency. You know, once they sort of have you
in their grasp, they can be so charming that it

(18:41):
almost just makes you forget like you just see a
different person. Right.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
He definitely love bomb you.

Speaker 3 (18:46):
Oh he loved Bombie, but he also you know, it
wasn't just me, Like he had people working for him.
He didn't pay his lawyer more than six hundred dollars
the whole year that we were like we were in
that whole fight. I spent over one hundred and fifty
grand in fifteen months trying to protect my son and
he paid six hundred bucks. And it wasn't because like
you know, she was doing this pro bono like she

(19:09):
she I think she actually fell for him, Like.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
I think they was messing around with each other it.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
You know, I I could not come right out and
say what I thought, because you're not supposed to do
that in books. You know, you're not supposed to well.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
You're gonna do it on here.

Speaker 3 (19:22):
I didn't want to be dude right right. There was
a lot of stuff like even just the police. It's like,
I I will never know what exactly motivated these people
to continue to protect him. You know, I have theories,
of course, you know, like I think, like I have
heard rumors that there were something that he had on

(19:43):
the police, right that would certainly make sense given.

Speaker 4 (19:46):
All the trafficking ring that they did exactly like that
would make sense, right, Was it ever proven?

Speaker 3 (19:52):
No? But it just doesn't Like there's no there's no
logical explanation to why they'd be the way that they behaved.
And knowing what I know from other police officers who
were in that department, mostly female officers, who were basically
whistleblowing on them, like there was just some shady shit

(20:12):
going on. Yeah, I don't know, right, Like, but see
that's to me, like those people are the demon in
my story because they're still out there and they never
had to they never had their day in court, right,
And so that to me is scarier because he didn't

(20:33):
act alone, you know, like he just one single person
could not have carried out the death and destruction that
he perpetrated for over a decade if it hadn't been
for people helping him.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah. Now I will say this y'all because I don't
want y'all think that my guess was just all naive.
Because my guests over here looking like a young Vanessa
Williams and her prime So.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yes, I don't want y'all think like, oh, she ugliest
men I know like this can really happen to anybody.
So with that being said, but also I'm so surprised
that you said that you were so naive because being
at your dad is from the South, and he's like
a black man, Like he taught you how to be tough.
So I'm surprised that you feel.

Speaker 3 (21:15):
Like I would see. I mean, even I think, like
I think they're there. There is a way and I
and I described this in one of my opening scenes
in the book, like my dad had this way about
him where he raised us as though we were growing
up in the sixties in Mississippi, right, and like we
obviously weren't right. And I think that, you know, part

(21:35):
of the reason I put that in the book is
I think that there is a there's probably a deeper
discussion that needs to be had about generational trauma.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
Right.

Speaker 3 (21:44):
A lot of people would read that and be like,
oh my gosh, it was abusive. I don't I didn't
put that in there to say that.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
I put that I didn't get that from them. But
I'm also from the South too.

Speaker 3 (21:51):
So exactly. And that's the thing. And it's interesting because
black people and white people have had completely different responses
to that site. But what I was trying to explain
is there was a way, like I was raised that
when you are in danger, you don't flip out. You
get the composure, right, Yeah, you have a certain level
of composure. And I think that some of that is

(22:14):
remnants of generational trauma, because like we had to be
a certain way, you know, that's what we teach our kids.
But I think that the interesting way that it played
out in my story is that when I was in
situations where I had to like talk to the police
about what was happening, they had an expectation of a
way that I should be acting based on what I

(22:35):
was saying, and I wasn't acting the way they expected.
Right Now, I didn't deal with black officers, right, were
white officers, And perhaps they just didn't realize they didn't
understand what they were seeing, right or there was something
else going on possibly, But either way, I think I

(22:58):
think even if you're prepared for it, I think there's
still a certain level of naivete that you experience. Like,
you know, I think many black people or most black
people grow up knowing that, like police brutality is a possibility,
but there's a difference between like thinking you're prepared for
it and then how you act when it actually happens, right,

(23:19):
And so I think we also in order to survive,
we sort of have to live in this like we
just we have to have some of this like cognitive
diffidence between like what we know could happen and like
really feeling like it's going to happen. And so even
though I mean part of being trained at the CIA

(23:40):
is like you're trained to be aware, but you can't
live with the level of hyper vigilance yep, every single day, right,
And so when you're on us soil and you're feeling
comfortable and you're feeling at home, you're not going to
be living with that sense of hyper vigilance, and you're
not going to expect like I think that you know,

(24:00):
we all take for granted, like when someone tells you
something about themselves and you're dating, like you're not going
to be like, oh, I'm gonna just like run his
so security number right, right, And we also have to
realize like back in twenty ten, twenty eleven, like even
just googling somebody wasn't all that yeah, right, you know,
right now it's like you can changed times have definitely changed,

(24:24):
and like I did google him, there was nothing there, right,
he did change his name, right, so I didn't have
his real name. But I think even if I had
had his real name, like the police all the other
things that he had been involved in, they had never
released his name publicly, so like unless I knew more

(24:45):
information about him, there was nothing. There was nothing to find, right, right,
And even ultimately when I hired the private investigator, But
that point, I had had his social Security number just
based on paperwork we had filed for my son. So
like that's not something I would have had, like pre
him being born. It's not like he was going to
be like, oh and my social Security number is you know, right, right,

(25:09):
So I think and I like, like I said, I mean,
I think we just take for granted, like if you
see someone who owns their own house and they have car,
they have been raising their other son, you know, and
presumably they work, like you're not gonna just like I
don't think anybody would make exactly, and like I wasn't

(25:30):
going to make the exumption that he was living off
like social Security death benefits from the people he had murdered,
Like yeah, that was crazy, right, And so this just
like it was so completely out of my normal construct
of like what happens in the world. Yeah that you know,
it's like so yeah, like he dressed funny, but other

(25:51):
than that, like there and then and then for someone
to present to you, like you know, everyone's like, oh,
you should meet their family. I met people who said
they were his family.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
But I thought they were all weird too.

Speaker 3 (26:02):
They were all a little of a strange shoe. But like, realistically,
you know, when someone's like I'm his aunt, I'm his uncle,
and then you don't find out until you meet his
real on uncle, right that these people were not even
related to him. You know, it's like, how do you know?
It's not like I was doing cheek swabs and like
DNA tests to see if they were actually related. So

(26:24):
I don't know, it's a mess, Like it's crazy. But
I also think that I think that perhaps to the
degree that it happened to me, it doesn't necessarily happen
to that degree on a regular basis. But I do
think that there are a lot of really problematic people
in the world. Yeah, and you know, I have heard
stories of women who get into relationships and the man

(26:46):
steals the money, or you know, like there's just a
lot of really bad people out there, and you know,
I hooked into a particularly terrible one. But I but
I don't think it's as abnormal as people think. I
think that it's just that people typically like this do
not get away for so many years with what he

(27:09):
got away with.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
Do you think there's a lot of Syracullis walking amongst us?
Because I think a lot of people do some weird shit.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
I think there are a lot of morally depraved people
walking amongst us, and I think there are a lot
of people like that who think that who if they
thought they could get away with it.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
They definitely do it.

Speaker 3 (27:38):
And I think that people also don't realize that there
are many people probably living amongst us who have killed
people who have gotten away with it. M hmmm, because
if you look at my ex, for example, like you know,
I think he probably killed more than three people.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
I think the three I was just about to ask
you that, right, But he.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
Lived in New York for a very long time, and
and we never found where he came from in New York.
I mean it was like literally he popped up in Virginia,
And so you know, I suspect. He had a whole
life there, Uh, and a whole bunch of dead bodies
that nobody ever him.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
You know.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
Another thing that I thought was weird was that he
shared a bank account with a man. And you've mentioned
briefly in your book that John spoke about the concept
of being bisexual.

Speaker 3 (28:29):
Uh, we spoke, it wasn't It wasn't that he.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
Because I'm like, why was he sharing his account with
his name?

Speaker 3 (28:36):
He was he he wanted to he wanted to be
a swinger. But it was interesting because he waited until
after I was pregnant to be like that was part
of his lifestyle. I think that I don't know he
calls this man his cousin. This man is not related
to him at all. I don't know what he had

(28:57):
on this man or what was going on there. But
I know why he didn't have a bank account in
his name. It was because a lot of people were
trying to sue him. He couldn't have any money in
his name or else. All other people, all the creditors
and everything. You know, he was basically I forget what
you call those people. But but like he wanted to

(29:19):
make himself to the point where he could do whatever
he wanted to people financially because he had stolen money
from people, He had done all sorts of crazy stuff,
and he just didn't pay a bunch of bills, and
so he wanted to make himself basically like Sue Proof.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Man, I'm surprised ain't nobody put him down?

Speaker 3 (29:37):
I mean, uh, it's it is. It is fairly amazing.
But then if you think about it, like Pete, there's
a reason people like this don't go after bad people, right, yeah,
Because if you're gonna go after somebody who's gonna who's
gonna have have the same you know, moral compass as
you obviously mm hmmm, it gets.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
One of those ain't gonna make it right, right, right, And.

Speaker 3 (29:58):
So he knew that he was not, you know, he
didn't he didn't go after people who were going to
come after him like that.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yeah. And I also got the sense that you might
have felt a responsibility to fixed or saved a relationship
because of society will pray. So I mean, I think,
like I coud you really try.

Speaker 3 (30:17):
I was raised in a in a I was raised
with Christian culture, where you know, you stay with the
father of your child, and I think that I certainly
spent a considerable amount of time feeling responsible and worrying
about my son not having a father. I mean, the

(30:39):
irony is that I'm a single mom by choice now
and like chose my daughters by myself. I have evolved
in some ways. Not that I don't think men are important.
I absolutely do think men are important. I think that
kids need, uh, kids need healthy role models. And I
think that society's session with children having a mother and

(31:03):
a father and it is misguided. And you know, you
look at like Barack Obama, who was raised by a woman,
became President of the United States, clearly did well for himself.
You look at Kamala Harris, who like never talks about
her dad. I think she mentioned him once, right, there's
a reason for that. She turned out just fine. So

(31:26):
not to say that, like, you know, I think it's
great if people have both parents in their life. But
I think that in hindsight, I think what I should
have realized is that this man was toxic. But another
problem that our society has is that the way our

(31:47):
family courts are designed, they aren't looking at making sure
that healthy parents are attached to kids. They're making sure
that parents have the right to be attached to their child,
regardless of whether or not they're healthy. Yeah, I And
I also think there was part of me that knew
that too, So I felt like, you know, maybe if

(32:07):
I save him, maybe if I fix him, you know,
which is one of the most dangerous things that women
do often, I mean people. I mean I've seen men right.
Thinking you can change someone or fix someone is just
you know, it's it's an exercise and futility.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
Yeah, but you make a good point because I feel like,
as a single woman with no kids, and I do
desire to have children and you know, hopefully have a
good man that can be my husband. I feel like
since I'm so focused in trying to do things, you know,
the right way, that a lot of people judge me,
and you know, sometimes it does get to me because
it's like, damn, like all my friends are either you know, married,

(32:47):
or they have kids and stuff. And I just know
that what you water will grow, and I water with
my business. So I feel like when I was reading
your story, it really resonated with me because I just
felt like you just wanted love. But yeah, I feel
like that time and of it, society just really just
it makes us feel like we're not worthy or we're
not woman.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
And that's hard about it, you know, because like even now,
it's like I don't want to get married because I
have feelings about being financially and legally connected to someone.
But I do want to find a person. I want
to feel chosen. I want I want to partner. Right,
you're not dated, I that's a whole other can of worms.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, No, I'm much try to get the tea.

Speaker 3 (33:30):
I mean, okay, like I am dating. I I am
dating in the most casual sense of the word. I
think that the hard part is I think you have
to be I think you have to be open to
finding a needle in a haystack. I don't necessarily think
there's one person for everyone only. It's just that, like

(33:52):
is you have to go through a lot of badats. Yeah,
And at this point in my life, I'm struggling with
time and you know, trying to make the time between
like my career and my kids and like all the
things I want to do.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
Right, it's a lot.

Speaker 3 (34:07):
It's a lot. Uh that said, you know, I am
hopeful that one day. Plus the caveat is like I
really hate app dating, like really really really hate it,
and I think it killed dating. I really do.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
I'm not gonna lie, so I mean, my listeners know this.
I join an online app and I would have never
thought at this age that I would be online dating.
Like I hate it, Like I feel like there's no
real connection. I feel like the niggas is weird.

Speaker 3 (34:37):
I feel like and they like, if I have another man,
text me good morning and that's it.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
I'm in what you're doing.

Speaker 3 (34:45):
I know, I'm just gonna like lose my mind. It's
like I don't know, I'm awake in getting dressed, like
you have nothing else I'm.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Texting you, right. But then I feel like when I
go outside, like men wild stare at me, but I
feel like they never come up to me. I'el like
they intimidated by me. I feel like once they know
who I am and like what I do and who
who I'm affiliated with, I got to make sure that
they have good intentions. Like I just feel like it's
just so fucking ghetto.

Speaker 3 (35:09):
I think the hardest part though, and this is why
I think app dating and internet dating ruined dating, is
that before it existed, people had to talk to each other, right,
And so we've gotten so accustomed to like being trolls
behind screens and like right not taking you know, just

(35:29):
like not taking chances and going up to people and
saying hello. And it's hard because, you know, unless you're
in a social setting with someone like work, you know,
your kids' school, whatever, places that you don't necessarily like
want to be dating because if it doesn't go well,
you're sort of right, it gets weird and it gets

(35:49):
all weird. And so I I I don't know how
to I don't. I don't really know how to put
myself out there at this age, you know, with kids
and with a career and like, you know, not all
the time in the world unless I go on apps,
and then the apps are just full of just yeah,

(36:11):
you know. And so I every once in a while,
I like dip my toe in the water, and then
I'm just like, hmm, I'm dipping right back out right right.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
Right right right now. I feel like you don't. I
feel like, after reading your story, you don't believe in
an abortion, but I feel like you was kind of
hesitant when once you found out that you was pregnant.

Speaker 3 (36:32):
I believe an abortion. I don't. I'm I'm very much
pro choice. Okay, I think that for me, And I
don't know whether I put this in my book. I
can't remember whether or not I mentioned it. I had
had one already.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
Oh no, you didn't put that in your book.

Speaker 3 (36:51):
So the first time, my first time was not consensual,
and it resulted in a pregnancy. And I remember even
back then, and I was pretty young, uh, I mean
I was out of college, but still pretty young. I
remember thinking to myself, like, you know, I'm I am

(37:15):
pro choice, but I also like love kids and feel
very responsible, you know, for like all of my actions
right when I had it, when I when I had
the non consensual encounter when I was when I was raped.
I also was wise enough to know that, like I
was like, I cannot, I do not think I can

(37:37):
bring a child into this world knowing how it how
it happened, and also like potentially continuously being connected to
this person I did this thing, and so uh after that,
you know, when when I got pregnant with Prince Uh,

(37:57):
I guess in my head, I was like, this is
not the same situation. I'm old enough and I have,
you know, a fairly stable career, like I can take
care of this child and like I wasn't. I wasn't
considering that I wouldn't end up with his dad. Like
at that point, I was like, Okay, it felt to

(38:19):
me like it would be irresponsible to make that decision.
In hindsight, I should have, right, Like, I love my
son and I'm and I'm grateful that I got to
know him for the fifteen months that I got to
know him. But I think realistically, like if I had
had the option, I never would have wanted him to

(38:39):
have to go through what he went through. Yeah, so,
but I you know, it's like hindsight's twenty twenty, right, Like,
and I think that, you know, part of not making
the decision to have an abortion was probably also somewhat
trauma based.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah. I was listening to one of your interviews from
a different show and you said that your son shouldn't
have not been born, and I was like, wow, like
that was real.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
I mean, it's it's it's sad, right, and like I
say that just being a complete realist.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 3 (39:14):
I don't think. I don't think he should have ever
been conceived, Like I should never have met his dad.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
Hey, you didn't even enjoyed the sex.

Speaker 4 (39:22):
One exactly you know, I feel like, what are we
doing here?

Speaker 3 (39:26):
No, it's terrible. It was just it was a terrible
and I think, like, I mean, if you have watched
the like the movie get Out, it was like I
was in the sunken place. I just yeah, there's no
more way to describe it better than like being completely
in a sunken place. And I think it, like, I
think it's hard. It's really hard to describe what it

(39:48):
feels like to be an abusive relationship you haven't been
in one, because I think people are often like I
can't stand when people are like, well you should just left, right,
Well that's like really sweet and like you know, special
snowflake of supportive, right, but that's possible, like or that's yeah,
you know, it's like by the time someone shows that

(40:09):
side of them, it's too late, you know, like just leaving.
It's like, yeah, the woman before me tried to just
leave and she's dead, Like yeah, you know, so yeah,
I mean, I think it's all. It's also really easy
for people to make assumptions that, you know, just because

(40:30):
of the way someone looks or whatever, that like you're
completely secure, right, because I wasn't.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
Yeah, So what was the turning point when things started
to go wrong.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
I mean I think that it was probably when I
got pregnant. I mean I think he just he realized
he had me and he was not wrong, you know,
And I think that was sort of when the masks
started coming down, and you know, I really just started
I felt like I was chasing the person that I

(41:09):
thought he was in the beginning, and that person's not
who he was, and so I was like trying to
bring that person back.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
Yeah, And I.

Speaker 3 (41:17):
Remember there was this moment where we were in like
a deposition during our court case and he looked at
me and it was like this moment where he was
like trying to get empathy, and I almost threw up
on him. I was like, how could you try? Like
how could you now like at this point when I
know what I know? And so I turned to him

(41:38):
and I'm like, I know who you are now, so
fucking knock it off, right. And it was funny because
like his face it just like went right back to
being a monster. It was like he turned it right off.
And I remember thinking to myself, like, wow, like that
is such like that that is a level of evil talent,
that is if you could bottle it up. You know,

(42:00):
you could probably like be very effective at warfare because
I mean just being able to turn it off just
like that was so so cacary and scary. Yeah, because
you you know, when he was on he I mean

(42:20):
he had people eating out of his hand, and I
mean I remember what it looked like in court, and
I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, how the hell do
you believe him? And then I thought to myself, of
course I believed him.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yeah, it was another part in your story when you
was I think he was sleeping and you were pregnant
and you felt like you couldn't breathe, and I'm like,
is this nigga trying to suffocate her?

Speaker 3 (42:40):
I think so I think he was.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah, and he when you woke up, he was standing
over you.

Speaker 3 (42:46):
Yeah. Like it it felt like you know, and I've
had this conversation with his now adult son about what
it felt like to be in that house, and it
like it felt like one of those like horror movies
where there's like a house of mirrors and you're like
trapped out of hor and you like can't figure out
what is real and what's not, you know, because he

(43:06):
would do things that were just evil and then you know,
like even like the suffocation incident, like I woke up
and he's hovering over me, and I'm just like what
the hell man, like uh yeah, and he and he's like, oh,
you must have had a nightmare. Oh, it must have
been your hormones. Like it just and I remember thinking
like I just don't know what's real and what's not real.

(43:29):
Like I felt like I was going crazy?

Speaker 2 (43:32):
But how did you not feel like that?

Speaker 3 (43:34):
Yeah, I mean it was just it was it was
it was just crazy like it it was a whole
it was a whole crazy Ah, it was a whole
crazy situation. And you know, I think similar to a
lot of abusive situations. You know, like they'll they'll punch
you in the face and then they'll make you think

(43:55):
that like you somehow punched yourself, right, you did some
where you like, yeah, you fell out his fist, like
you deserve it or whatever. And I mean, so it's
I think back to that time and I'm just like,
you know, and it's interesting because it's like I feel
like it was a different lifetime. I feel like I
was a different person. I know that I'm like the

(44:17):
essence of me right, like the essence of me is
the same. But I feel I feel like I just
feel like I feel woke, right, I feel.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
Like I am you found yourself.

Speaker 3 (44:31):
I also like I understand the world. I feel like
I understand the world in a way that I never
could have imagined pre him, and I think it's impossible.
Like I think sometimes I'm like, Okay, did I did
growing up in this like sheltered Christian community like harm
me in some way because I didn't see this part

(44:54):
of the world, like even from I don't know if
I put this in the book, but like I remember
being in elementary school and then bringing police officers in
and being like they're here to help you and this
and that and the third right, and like that's not
what I tell my kids, Like sorry all police officers, right,
But like what I'm trying my kid is, if you
ever need help, you call me, right, because it might

(45:15):
be dangerous for you to call the police because they
might get there and they may actually not be on
your side. And it's like, yeah, harsh reality, but it's
but it's real, right, Like when you start thinking about
like the way our systems work, and I guess like
in some ways it's scary, you know, because like the.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
But it's a reality.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
It's the reality, right, So I feel like I'm I
feel like it's impossible to survive a situation like that
and still walk around like somebody who doesn't know what's
going on in the world, you know, like it just
starts to make you question, like okay, like what are
all these things for?

Speaker 2 (45:51):
Right? But I also feel like given that you was
a CIA agent, I feel like your expectations of the
legal system is of course is going to be high
because of you technically is a part of that world.

Speaker 3 (46:02):
No, I mean FBI is like their law enforcement, but like.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
I still like you still have some type of dealings
with them, right, I.

Speaker 3 (46:12):
Mean yes, and no, Like I think it's different though,
Like I think that you know, a lot of my
job was was around like researching like international threats, right right,
And that's like or like international threat intelligence and things
like that. Like that's that's very different than like homegrown terrorism,
right right. Like I think that's yeah, Like I I

(46:42):
I just I think it is a very it's it's
a very unique situation to be keenly aware of the
type of crime that occurs on our home soil, like
I was not trained in that, right, Like I wasn't
trained to be looking for it like right, you know.
And and I also so it like it wasn't enough

(47:03):
of my experience to even be thinking that it was
at my front door. Yeah, and I and I also
don't know. I mean I I don't I honestly don't
know how you prepare you know, kids, kids for that.
Like yeah, I think I'm hopeful that I can talk
to my kids about my experience without trying to transfer

(47:25):
anxiety onto them just to be like, hey, like you
you can't trust people, right, Yeah. But I mean I
say this knowing that even after my ex like I
you know.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
I've I've had trust your gut, trust.

Speaker 3 (47:38):
Your gut, right like I But I think, Yeah, I
mean it's not it's not just romantic relationships either, you know.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
Oh no, definitely platonic too, Yeah, like you know, bitches
be weird.

Speaker 3 (47:49):
I had a former business partner that turned out to
be like completely horrible. Yeah, and so it's like you
just I don't know, like we we all continue to
make mistakes or whatever, and people continue to do this thing.
But I do think that I think that with this
level of trauma. It's like it's it's hard to go
back to like that kind of like naive. You know, no,

(48:15):
you can't go back happy person, not necessarily, not like
I'm a very happy person, but like I think, I'm
just I'm just aware of how the world really is,
which maybe makes me cynical and perhaps why I'm single.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
But I also think, I mean, given the journey that
you've been on, I think it's normal for you to
feel this way because what you've been through would have
broke a lot of people, like you don't look like
what you've been through.

Speaker 3 (48:41):
Well, I'm glad about that.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
Yeah, because what you've been through was a lot. Because
even thank God for your dad because when y'all discovered
that your ex raped your sister, and I have never
wanted your dad to like like pop off on him
because I was I could not believe that that was
the next part of the story.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
I actually am very thankful that he didn't kill him
that night.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
Because because I couldn't imagine.

Speaker 4 (49:08):
I think that would have been terrible and it it
just I mean I think that I don't know, it
would have been heartbreaking, it would have been terrible, and
it would have ruined many people's lives, and.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
I I'm just glad he was there because I also
feel like, if you didn't have your dad presence, I
think that your ex probably would have tried it even more.

Speaker 3 (49:30):
Oh, I think so too. I think he was Yeh,
I think he. I think he thought my dad was
going to I think he thought my dad was capable
of killing him.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
Yeah, and so.

Speaker 3 (49:42):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I've said I've said this
to his older son before. I'm like, you know, fifty
percent of the people who lived with this man in
his adult life are dead. We're the lad We're the
only two that survived.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
Yeah, and the son barely survived.

Speaker 5 (49:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:58):
Like, I mean, he literally is like the boy who lived. Like,
you know, I don't know, It's it's crazy. I think
that though, Like I think choosing to survive. And I've
known a lot of people who've gone through really terrible

(50:19):
things and and similarly terrible things like people who've who've
had I've met a lot of people who've who've who've
had children murdered by their ex.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
Right.

Speaker 3 (50:29):
Sadly, it's a club that no one ever wants to
be in, but we're in it, Okay, And what I
typically tell people is, I'm like, it's a choice to
keep living. It's a choice to decide that you're going
to live your best life. And if you if you
decide like if you if you can't get past it,

(50:49):
or you like you know, continue living in that misery,
understand that that's also a choice. Right. I think sometimes
people choose to remain a victim, Like, yeah, they don't
want to get out of it. They don't they feel
like sort of some some sort of comfort in that
or what have you? For me, Like, I choose to

(51:11):
live my best life because I know that that's the
only way my son keeps living. Like if I chose that,
like I could have also chosen to die with him, right, Yeah,
but I think if that if I had done that,
then he would have then he then there'd be no
part of him that was still living. And and also
like I think I think that in many ways, like

(51:35):
my ex, it would be it winning for him, right.
But yeah, he wanted to destroy my life. He wanted
to destroy me, and he didn't succeed.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
Now, when you hired the private investigator, what was some
of the things that you found out on top of
him kill and to other people.

Speaker 3 (52:01):
I mean business had stolen money from multiple people. You know.
He had changed his name to his son's. Oh that's
I didn't even put that in the book because it
was hard to explain. So six months before his ex
girlfriend died, the mom of his older son, he changed
his name to his son's name, and then when she died,

(52:23):
tried to claim that her life insurance policy was for
him and not for her son. Wow. Yeah, it was crazy,
like when you like when I when I read, when
I poured through all the information because part of like
taking a decade to write the book was like I
wanted to be the reason it took so long, is
like I wanted to hold myself accountable. I wanted to

(52:45):
make sure I told the story in an authentic way,
and I also wanted to make sure that I, like
got the facts right.

Speaker 1 (52:51):
So I was.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
Pouring through all this data trying to make sure that,
like I had the chain of events and like all
the things that happened, and it was just crazy, like
and just looking at the autopsy reports from his own mom,
like you can't suffocate yourself to death, right, Like the
bag was not tied to her head, It wasn't like

(53:11):
you know, like you if you press a bag to
your head, you will pass out and then you will
start breathing, right, So like it's actually physically impossible to
kill yourself the way that they said she killed herself.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (53:25):
And I have since had police officers tell me that
her suicide note and I put that in quotation marks
was not in her handwriting. Yeah, And I'm like they
had all of this and like, why did no one
charge him with that?

Speaker 1 (53:40):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (53:40):
Even when y'all went to the police and you told
them about the situation with your sister, And I'm like
the fact that they charge y'all yeah because they thought
you was lying. And I'm like, where is this, Like
where are y'all at? Because this cannot be real.

Speaker 3 (53:53):
It was like, I mean, it was literally like the
Twilight Zone, right, And you know, I was just telling
someone today they were like, oh, oh yeah, I know,
like I dated someone from Gainesville, Virginia, which is Prince
William County, And I was like, man, they can cut
Prince William County off of the out of the United States,
let it float off to sea, and I would be like, peace,
what's going on in that county? But it is like

(54:16):
I mean just I know that in our country we
refuse to believe that women get raped. It happens a lot.
And frank, yeah, like back to what I said earlier
with the little boys on the playground, Like I think
we have this tendency to be like boys will be boys,
and they that's just how they are. And like, what
did you do to like make him want to rape

(54:36):
you or whatever? And so like, I know that it
is common for police not to prosecute rapes or people
not to believe women. But when someone like this comes
in and you know that he's killed multiple people, you
know they knew who he was in this town. And
I remember a police officer saying like, yeah, he's not

(54:58):
a good guy, but he's not rapist. And I'm like,
are you kidding? Like so what he's a killer but
not capable of rape? Like come on, and.

Speaker 2 (55:09):
Why would you supposed to lie about that?

Speaker 3 (55:10):
She wouldn't. It's crazy, Like the whole situation is is
is crazy. It's just crazy. But but they also thought
I was lying. They were like, oh, that never happened.
I'm like, I have two witnesses, Like two witnesses, and
if my son could speak, he'd be a third.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
Do you think that if you weren't black, that the
alcohol would be different.

Speaker 3 (55:35):
I think about that a lot, and I think perhaps,
you know, I do think that I do think racism
played a part both in what happened with us with
the police and what happened in family court. I do
think it played a part. But I also think that

(55:59):
you can't ignore just how this police department acted and
and the lengths that they went to to sort of
like cover up their misbehavior.

Speaker 2 (56:09):
To protect them.

Speaker 3 (56:10):
Yeah, and so you know it, it leads me to wonder, Look,
my accident kill people who weren't black. We all had
something in common, right, And so I think I think
there is something to that, right, Like he didn't date people,
he didn't date women that weren't black. And I think that,
you know, even though he liked to walk around saying

(56:32):
he was Dominican, motherfucker, was not Dominican, like he was
white Puerto Rican.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
He was white Porto Rican. Because I google him, I'm like, yo,
he's not right.

Speaker 3 (56:42):
And when when it came down to it, and it
was his word against mine, you know, And I think
that was another thing that that made me that I
have learned I think, you know, as as black people,
we have a tendency to like, you know, kind of
like try to wear our degrees as like like like like.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
A badge of honor.

Speaker 3 (57:02):
Yeah, or it's gonna protect you from something, right, right, right,
So I I thought I had the misguided idea that
because I'm educated and because I had a good job
and all this stuff, that somehow I could like come
into a police station and be believed. I think at
the end of the day, like we cannot wipe our

(57:22):
blackness from our skin. Yeah, it's like you can. You
can have a whole you know, like you can you
can drape yourselves in your diploma, and that's not going
to protect you because it doesn't it doesn't matter. Like
when they look at you, they see a black person,
a black person, right and like and and so you know,

(57:46):
but then again, like I can't. I do think that
there was something with my ex and the police. There's
too many people in the system that have told me
that there's something with my ex and the police. I
think it got to a point if I hadn't gone
to the media and blown it up, I don't think
he would have ever gotten arrested, even for killing my son.

(58:07):
I think they would have been like, oh, you know,
he died of natural causes and just like brush it
under the carpet.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
Listen, I'm not gonna lie. When I was reading a
story and I felt like you were starting to find
your voice, I was like, come on, that's what I'm
talking about, Like you was not playing, and I was
just so proud and so happy for you because it
was evident from where we first started in the beginning
of your book to where we at towards the end
or even now, like you really stood up for yourself
and you wasn't afraid no more.

Speaker 3 (58:34):
Yeah, I mean I had nothing to lose at that point.
Like that's why I told people. I tell people all
the time, I'm like, I am the system's worst nightmare because.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
My because you was giving them hell.

Speaker 3 (58:44):
Right, So I'm like, you can you can say or
do whatever you want. I'm not going to be in
family court. And that's one of the reasons I had
my kids via donor, because yeah, I feel like I
can't be quiet. I feel like part of parenting my
son is continuing to speak out about this, and I
think if I had to worry that like one day
my kids could be in family court again. Even if

(59:04):
I like loved the person and thought they were great,
like I think, there would always be this fear in
the back of my mind, like, oh my gosh, what
if this happens, if this happens again? Right, And so yeah,
now I'm at the point where I'm just like, you
know what, I can say whatever because I'm not in
that system anymore and I'm not gonna be.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
Yeah, can you share how much you into the pain
and legal fees throughout the entire party?

Speaker 3 (59:26):
It was like a little bit more than one hundred
and fifty thousand, because it was a lot. It was
a lot. I felt like, I mean, I'm thankful that
my parents, you know, my parents let us live with them,
which was you know, I don't know how, I don't
know how I would have like afforded to to rent
anywhere because I was using my entire salary towards legal

(59:49):
fees and and I liquidated all of my four one
K and all that stuff. Yeah, just because I was like,
I can't I can't not fight, you know, like I
have to, And and these attorneys, I mean, they're like,
you know, two hundred and fifty to four hundred thousand

(01:00:09):
dollars a year, yeah, or I'm sorry, two hundred and
fifty to four hundred dollars an hour. And so when
you like what people don't realize, like even sending your
attorney an email, they'll charge you a half an hour
just to read the email. So like, think about every
time you send an email. That's like two hundred dollars
right there, and it just it adds up. You know,

(01:00:31):
it's like it's so expensive.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
But you also made a good point in your book
about the importanness of having a therapist, so you can
avoid all those fees.

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
Oh totally. And I think I made a lot of
mistakes early on because I was so I mean I
was just like a walking trauma bond or a walking
trauma bomb. You know, It's like I would just I
would just pour out everywhere, and you know, I really
really people need to separate, like that is your attorney,
and you need to have a therapist for you, you know,

(01:01:01):
to kind of process what you've been through because if
you try, you know, look, your attorney will let you.
They'll just be like sure, I'll charge you four hundred
dollars to keep talking.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
But they didn't even do nothing it's like, where's the
integrity yet, I.

Speaker 3 (01:01:14):
Don't know, like that's part of but see that's part
of I think that if we took the money out
of family court, I think kids would be safer anything.
People in the system don't want to hear that, right,
But it should never come down to like how much
money someone has to be able to protect the kids, right,
because it sets up a system of inequity, and it
also it it puts people in the game with false motivations, right,

(01:01:39):
So like they let him go pick his own therapist
to give his psychological datls crazy, and so he picks
this woman who's not even licensed, right, And it's like
I feel like people are just you can pay these
people to say whatever the whatever you want. And if
you had licensed therapists that worked for the courts that
didn't have like you know, skin in the game for

(01:02:02):
like honesty, and you take the money out of it,
like you take the private money out of it, it
becomes like a more equitable process and it becomes more
authentic because you aren't going to have a situation where
someone's like, oh, I'm going to say this because they
paid me, And now I feel weird about like you know,
calling him.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
So path Yeah. Throughout the custody battle, you advocated so
strongly for supervised visits, as if your spirit knew something
terrible was going to happen. Did you ever feel like
a deeper, deeper, spiritual intuition guiding you, warning you for
what's to come? Because I feel like when I was
reading that part about your son and like you was

(01:02:39):
going so hard, Like it's like you kind of knew that.
I knew you were preparing. Yeah, I knew.

Speaker 3 (01:02:44):
I remember. So when they lifted the supervised visitation, I
called an organization called Child Justice and I and I
and the first thing I said to them is, I
think he's going to try to kill him. I need
to try to appeal this. And I'm fortunately my son
never lived long enough for us to do an appeal, right.

(01:03:05):
And I think, you know, I think it's like, how
could you not worry about that after learning all that
I learned, you know, And I mean I remember this,
this supervised visitation provider. She was like, oh, do you
think he has a policy on him?

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
And I thought that was crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
I was like, why would you say that unless you
know something?

Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
And I remember calling like I called insurance companies asking,
and the reality at the end of the day is
unless you have the policy number, you can't get that information.
And the fact that he said that I was dead,
you know, and no one checked, Like these insurance companies
just took out like hundreds of thousands of dollars on

(01:03:45):
my son under this false reality that I was dead,
and I didn't even get a right to know, because like,
if I had known, I could have taken that to police.
Not to say that they would have done anything, because.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
But here's the motive.

Speaker 3 (01:03:56):
But yeah, but at least it would have been clear,
like I could have taken it to the court to
be like like, hey, look like you know, we see
here two other people who he killed for life insurance policy,
or at least we suspected, and now he's got a
policy on him. Like I mean, I wish I hadn't
had that information because at the end of the day,
like having a suspicion isn't going to be something that

(01:04:19):
holds up in court. And I didn't find out about
the policies until two weeks after he died and the
police gave it me.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
Wow, is there a place for forgiveness in your journey?
And then so what does that look like just with
the and not just with your ex but just with
the people who were supposed to partake good questions.

Speaker 3 (01:04:38):
So I remember right after I think I put this
in the book. Actually, so like right after my son died,
I remember being at the funeral and I was talking
to the priest and I said to him, I said,
I don't understand the I don't understand how somebody could
like I hate when people say, oh, you should forgive,

(01:04:59):
you should forgive, and like somehow it's like gonna set
you free, right right, And so he said something was
really wise and he was like, forgiveness should be should
be only for people who have the capacity or understanding
what they did wrong and truly feeling something about it. Right,

(01:05:22):
And so he was like, right now you're angry, and
he was like, you hold on to that anger, because
it's that anger that's going to get you justice. And
I appreciated him so much because I made the assumption that, like,
because he was a man of God, he would be
like you have to forgive and he's like, fuck that, right,
like goes it is not like he was like it's

(01:05:42):
a waste of your energy, because he was like, look
forgive yourself, right, But like, if I think my ex
is useless for me to ever even think about, like
spending the energy required to even consider what forgiveness of
him would look like, I do feel bad for him, right,

(01:06:03):
There is a part of me that like it is
sad for him because I think somebody who is incapable
of connecting to even his own son, that's just a
that's a very sad human condition, right, Yeah, And so
I do feel bad for him. I think his mental
capacity or whatever was going on in his head, that's

(01:06:24):
just that's a sad existence. I don't forgive him because
I just don't think he's capable, Like I don't think
he is. I don't think his brain is capable for
to really have like attrition for what he did. So
I think that's never gonna happen. As far as other
people in the system, I think I think I would

(01:06:44):
have forgiveness, but it would require what the priest said, right,
he would It would require them to acknowledge the harm
that they did and actually do something to work towards
making sure that doesn't happen again. And I haven't received
that from anyone in the process, And so I think
like that is something that for me, it would be

(01:07:06):
required to extend that, like I can think about like,
for example, the judge, I think in many ways he.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
Was, Oh he was disgusting, Oh he was.

Speaker 3 (01:07:15):
He was.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
He was a fucker, Like yeah, a piece of shit,
Like oh the way he talks to y'all in that
coom was.

Speaker 3 (01:07:21):
And he's never he has never apologized publicly or privately,
has never apologized. He's talking to he's talked to third
parties and I've heard back from him. He retired after
like you know, he resigned or whatever. But like I'm like,
you know, if you can't be man enough to just
say I'm sorry, even privately, right right, nothing said has

(01:07:44):
said zero words to me since my son died. And
so I'm like, do I forgive him? No, because even
though this is a man who goes to church every Sunday, right,
I don't think I think he is. I think he's
a lost cause you know, like if he if he look,
he's gonna have to be on his deathbed, he's gonna
have to go and deal with.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
His own like, you know, he know he fucked up.

Speaker 3 (01:08:08):
Though of course he knew he fucked up, I'm just
saying that, Like, I would like to believe that if
I had committed the same atrocity, I would at least
have the decency to say, I'm sorry for right, I'm
sorry for what I said to you, I'm sorry for
how this turned out, I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
Sorry how I made you feel.

Speaker 3 (01:08:28):
Right, Because like, really, at the end of the day,
I can't sue him. He's completely unsuable. Right, So it's like,
what are you gonna lose by just being decent and
saying I'm sorry, right?

Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
But how can we hold the legal system accountable? Because unfortunately,
your story is very common. So what can we do,
especially in the family course? Because the one good thing
about your book is you definitely gave a playbook on
this is what you need to do and avoid when
it comes to being a family course.

Speaker 3 (01:08:58):
Yeah, I mean that's I had two reasons for writing
the book. One of them is I wanted to write
the book that I needed while I was going through
it and to I wanted to give a playbook for
you know, people who want who want to understand all
the things that are wrong and want to make changes.
You know, I really think that there are so many things,

(01:09:20):
there are so many things that can be done on
the state level. I think many of the laws that
need to change are the state level. But I also
think the federal government needs to take a stand because
I think that what's happening to kids in this country
is one of the biggest civil rights crisises since the
Civil Rights movement with black people, and I think the

(01:09:42):
sad reality is that kids can't vote, and so politicians
aren't thinking about the kids. They're thinking about making parents happy, right,
And so what I think the federal government needs to
take a stand on is I think they need to
hold states accountable for not having child protective policies in place.
And there are ways to do it. We've done it before,
like when you didn't integrate the schools, the federal government

(01:10:03):
was like, well, okay, we won't pave your roads, right, right,
And so there are ways that the federal government can
hold the states accountable. They just choose not to. And
I think that it's gotten to a point where I
think as society, you know, I say this all the time,
that so many people choose to ignore this because they're like, well,
I don't have a kid in family court, and my

(01:10:24):
kid is safe and fine but what I always say is, like,
what happens when that kid who's been terrorized for the
last sixteen years knocks on your door and wants to
take your daughter to prom? Yeah, right now, it's your problem.
And we don't live in a bubble, you know. It's
like you work with these people, you encounter them at
the grocery store. And so I really think we need

(01:10:48):
to as a society invest in protecting our kids. And
the way we do that is instead of thinking about
parental rights and how much time a parent should get,
I think we really need to think about, like what
is in the best interest of child safety, especially when
there's like a safety risk at play, Like no kid
is going to die by having to have supervised visitation

(01:11:10):
with their like you know, derelict parent. Like it's like, okay,
they get access to this person. Like I was not
fighting Prince getting to know this man. I just wanted
to make sure that it was in a safe environment
and that he wasn't going to be able to kill him.
Because realistically, like you know, Prince could have been in
supervised visitation for his entire childhood and he would have

(01:11:31):
been just fine. He probably would have eventually figured out
his dad was effing crazy, right, but he wouldn't have
been dead, right.

Speaker 2 (01:11:41):
Do you ever think about what your life will look
like if he was still if he was still alive.

Speaker 3 (01:11:45):
I do, And it's really hard because I often wonder
if there was a world in which both he and
my daughters could exist, which is a really hard thing
to think about. Like I wish there was, Like I
sometimes think about, like, you know, would they be fighting
with him? Would would my oldest be like, ah, like

(01:12:05):
Princes coming into my room again and like being annoying
and be like, ah, she stole my computer or whatever, like,
you know, I would love to imagine that world, but
I think the you know, the sad reality is I
also cannot imagine a scenario in which that was sustainable

(01:12:26):
because I think that my ex was so deranged, you
know that I don't know. It feels very much like
Prince never had a chance, which is part of the
reason I go back to like he should never have
been born, because I think that it was horrible to
put him through that. Like I would like to believe
that I gave him the best life possible, but I

(01:12:47):
also am realistic enough to know that I was not
the best version of myself for him, Like, yeah, my
daughters see a very different mom. Like I am a
better mom to them because I can be because I'm
not you know, Like I think what's hard is like
when you're in this like heightened state of a cute trauma,
you can never heal from it, right, because you're constantly

(01:13:10):
in it. And yeah, for his yeah, like for his
entire life. I was afraid that he was going to
die and I and I was like, I think back
to like the moments that I was on an email
or a phone with an attorney and not spending time
with him, and I'm like, gosh, I wish I could
have those moments back because it didn't matter, you know,

(01:13:31):
like it's still ended up the way it ended up,
and I would have anything to like hug him again.
And and I don't have the you know, I don't
have that opportunities, not here anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Do you still keep in contact with his older brother?

Speaker 3 (01:13:44):
I do. Yeah, he is a great kid. I mean
he's a guy now, so I can't call him kid.

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
And I'm always he's a man now, right, I'm always
going to.

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
See him as a ten year old. I don't care
how old I told him this before. I'm like, look,
you're ten. I know you're twenty five, but you're ten.
You know, I think I I want the best for him,
and you know, I tell him a lot, like you know,
you're I call him Mysuno because he.

Speaker 2 (01:14:15):
Was like my your first son, Like.

Speaker 3 (01:14:17):
I feel like he's the kid that you know I
I he made he made me feel like a mom,
which was also really hard because I think my attachment
to him made it harder for me to leave his
dad when I should have, because I couldn't take him
with me. I mean, even in the end, it was
a decision where I was like, I can't save him,

(01:14:40):
but I can try to save Prince. But it's still,
you know, it's still weighs on me having had to
make to make that decision to leave.

Speaker 2 (01:14:49):
What do you hope that he takes away from this journey.

Speaker 3 (01:14:54):
For my book or just the journey?

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
I mean, I think just overall, because I wanted to.
Does he ever talk to you about how he he
thought it?

Speaker 3 (01:15:01):
Yeah? I think it's I mean I think that I
can't even imagine what it would be like to be
a kid in that environment, right, And I think right,
I think he has a lot more to unpack than
even me, because I think what is hard is that
I mean, I think I think even dealing with him,

(01:15:23):
like I've realized, kids want to love their parents. Yeah,
no matter what, they want to love their parents. Which
is why I think this whole Like when people say
parental alienation, I'm like, that's bullshit. Like kids want to
love their parents. So if you're if your kid is
telling you something about a parent that's negative, like trust them.
So I think that what's hard is that it's still

(01:15:45):
his dad, right, Yeah, you know, he's he's certainly aware
that his dad is who he is, and he's not
you know, he doesn't have rose colored glasses to think
that he didn't do what he did, right, But I
think it's a very different struggle, you know, And I
would have had it with my own son, right, Like
if Prince had survived, I think that there is there

(01:16:08):
is something he would have carried knowing that this person
who was capable and who had like perpetrated such such
terrible things on people was related to him, you know. Yeah,
So yeah, I think you know, he's he's going to
have a lifelong struggle with with that. When I I

(01:16:29):
gave him a copy of the book, and before I
gave it to him, I said to him, I was like,
I want you to protect your peace. I'm getting you
this because I love you, and I want and I
want you to have it, and I want you to
like have the opportunity to one day like read what
I what I what I felt during that situation. But
I also, you know, want you to know that if

(01:16:51):
you don't read it, it's going to be okay, Like
if you and and and to be conscious of how
you're feeling, because I think it's very different for him
him having lived his own version of it. Yeah, you know,
and he was super little. I mean he was only ten. Yeah.
And seeing my oldest right now, who's ten, Like, I mean,

(01:17:12):
I cannot imagine her having to kind of deal with
all that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
Yeah, we're almost finished. But one of the most beautiful
things that you said about your son, Prince, I don't
know if I've read it or you said it in
one of your interviews, but you said, even at fifteen
months old, he was able to do something impactful, which
was he was able to stop a serial killer. Yeah,
I mean, and I thought that was so beautiful. I
was like, Wow, I think that.

Speaker 3 (01:17:40):
I mean, I have long held the belief that our
kids find us, and so I talk to parents about
this all the time, you know, parents who are like
struggling to have kids or parents who have lost a kid,
and I'm like, you know, I think they find us. Yeah,
and you know, either via adoption or whatever, like they
find us. And I think that my son came here

(01:18:01):
for a reason. I think he chose me because he
was like, this woman is not gonna stop, right, She's
gonna do what needs to be done. And yeah, I'm
gonna put a finish to this man, and I'm gonna
do it where nobody can say that like I did anything,
because I'm just a kid, right, And so I didn't
feel very strongly that he chose me and he came

(01:18:21):
for a reason, you know, Prince, I still wish that
maybe you had chosen someone else or like, thank you
for this honor. But it also, you know, helps me
feel like he chose I feel like he had a
part in choosing my daughters to come to me, and

(01:18:43):
so like it makes me feel like connected. It makes
me feel like there's someone also connected to him, which
is which is special and powerful and yeah, I mean
he was he was the boy that finally, you know,
put this man behind bars. And I have to believe,
like I do think that he would have kept killing.
I think he would have kept doing terrible things to people.

(01:19:04):
And so, you know, it is it is a comfort
knowing that like that, even though my son is not
here anymore, like at least this man is in jail
and he can't hurt anybody else.

Speaker 2 (01:19:16):
Yeah, one of the most important lessons you want to
impart to your daughters about relationships.

Speaker 3 (01:19:24):
I think that I want them to realize that they
are important and that they don't have to settle for
you know, they don't have to settle and they can
choose their own destiny. And like, you know, some people
in my family got in my case because they're like, oh,
like my oldest has said she's like I'm just gonna

(01:19:46):
get a donor, and they're like, you should teach them that,
like there's all these other things. I was like, you know,
I love that she says that because she knows that
it's an option, right, right, And I'm like I also
tell her, like, hey, look like there's beauty and any
type of way that you create a family, right, But
I want her to know that she doesn't have to

(01:20:08):
she doesn't have to feel like she's settling, right. I
hope for them that they find very like healthy, happy relationships.
I certainly want grand babies right one day, but I
like that they, at least in that way, are sort
of like freed from societals like what is right? Yeah,
because I think that is. I think that is the

(01:20:30):
most toxic thing, like feeling like you as a woman
have to be like the property of a man. And
it's part of the reason why I'm in my feelings
about marriage in general these days, because I'm like, it
made sense in the seventies and we couldn't have bank accounts, right,
But now I'm like, you know, I want my daughters
to know that when they're in a relationship, they can

(01:20:50):
They should wake up every day choosing that person, and
they should make sure that person wakes up every day
choosing them, choose them, and not just because they have
to be legally attached with them, but just because, like
I choose to be with you because you treat me
well and because I love you, and because you're a
good person and all those things.

Speaker 1 (01:21:06):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:21:07):
Yeah, And last, but not least, if Prince were here today,
what would you want him to know about the work
you're doing.

Speaker 3 (01:21:16):
I told him the day that the day I buried him,
I like a crazy person had a conversation with the corpse,
and I remember, it's not crazy. I was like, Prince,
you were not the first, but I want you to
be the last. And I'm gonna do whatever I can
to make sure that I contribute to making sure this ends.

(01:21:37):
And so yeah, I I hope that he knows that
I'm carrying this on for him. I hope he feels
vindicated and choosing me, like, oh, I did the right
thing because she like did what I wanted. But I
also hope that he you know, I've I've tried to

(01:22:00):
work really hard on forgiving myself, and I think one
of the things that I'm very sad about is just
I feel like I feel in many ways I failed
him by not not making it so that it never happened.
And that's yeah, I mean, I would tell him, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:22:25):
Have you forgiven yourself?

Speaker 3 (01:22:26):
I don't know, that's a good question, Like I think
I have in some ways.

Speaker 2 (01:22:33):
Because I feel like you it's a wave.

Speaker 3 (01:22:37):
I think it's hard to completely feel like I don't
have any accountability right because I think that there's still
a part of me that is like I actively made
the choice to be with this person, right right, And
I think it's more it's not necessarily I blame myself.

(01:22:57):
I just feel like a level of sadness that I
wasn't able to protect him, Like I tried really really
hard and I wasn't able to do it, and it
and it. I think the thing that bothers me the
most is like I go over and over and it
was part of the book too. It's just like all
these things happen and I and I still feel like

(01:23:18):
if one thing had been different, he'd still be Yeah,
And so that's the hard part. That's hard, Like I
think part of the trauma, and like the acute trauma
of going through it is like you kind of you
always feel like you have to be a step ahead
of the crazy person, but it's like there's no there's
no knowing, you know. Yeah, but it still doesn't feel

(01:23:41):
good because you're like, damn, like if I could have
just done one thing different, if I could known this thing.
So I don't know. I mean, I think I have
forgiven myself, but it's still I think I still hold
a certain level of just like anger and disappointment that
I'll probably always hold because I couldn't do anything. I
couldn't do. I couldn't I couldn't save them.

Speaker 2 (01:24:03):
Yeah, well, listen, I'm proud of you. I think that
your story is definitely inspiring, and I know that it
is saving a lot of people. So you know, I
think that if it makes sense, this wasn't in vain,
and I think I think you're doing it like I
think that Prince came here for a reason because he
knew that you was gonna fight, and you fought a

(01:24:25):
really good fight, like God forbid, something wants to happen.
I got my money on you.

Speaker 3 (01:24:29):
Well I agree. I mean, I'm hoving like I want
to start a movement and I'm hoping that people will
get you.

Speaker 2 (01:24:36):
You did start a movement. I'm surprised have anybody reached
out to make this a movie or something or like not.

Speaker 3 (01:24:41):
Yet, But I'm still, like I joke with friends, I'm
just like, I feel like I've lived a bad lifetime movie.
So I feel like, you know, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:50):
Because we need a movie, like we need something, because
I think that a lot of women and men can
relate to your story.

Speaker 3 (01:24:59):
Yeah, I mean, I I would certainly love for the
opportunity to have more people be aware and not just
for you know, like I said in the book, like
not just for trauma porn, but really awareness people understand,
you know, like I want people to walk around as
woke as I am, Like so they start to think

(01:25:19):
about like, Okay, you know, like I let's stop trusting
people with the same level of trust you know.

Speaker 2 (01:25:30):
Yeah, Well, thank you so much for being on the show.
I'm really excited to have you on, y'all. I've read
her book literally like two days, so I'm just I'm
looking forward to keep it in contact with you because
I definitely want to have you involved in some of
the things that I'm working on, because I'm really big
on people sharing a story because you never know how
your storyline could be someone else's lifeline. So I really

(01:25:51):
appreciate you coming on.

Speaker 3 (01:25:52):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:25:53):
Yeah, and to the listeners, if you have any questions
tom It's concerns, please make sure to email me a
hello at the pahgpodcast dot com. And until next time,
everyone later, Bye bye. The Professional Homegirl Podcast is a

(01:26:14):
production of the Black Effect Podcast Network. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows. Don't forget to subscribe
and rate the show, and you can connect with me
on social media at the PHG podcast

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Host

Eboné Almon

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