August 5, 2021 • 43 mins
Chiropractic was born out of holistic mysticism from the magnetic healer D.D. Palmer. Is there any value in it or is it complete bulls**t? I spoke with Dr Jeff Langmaid, a credible and evidence based chiropractor about how he approaches treatment.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Prodigy is a production of I Heart Radio. Harvey Lillard
was a janitor in the late eighteen hundreds. One day,
he moved the wrong way, which made an audible pop
in his back, and he immediately lost the majority of
his hearing. Sometime later, while cleaning the office of a
magnetic healer named Daniel David Palmer, he bent over to
empty the trash. Daniel David Palmer, who went by de
(00:23):
d noticed that Lillard had a vertebrate out of position,
so he had lillard life face down on the floor
and adjusted it back into place. The next day, Lillard
made the now famous quote, I can hear the rackets
on the streets. Two years later, Did E. Palmer opened
the first school of chiropractic. It's been over a century
(00:44):
since then, and this is the first sentence about it
on Wikipedia. Chiropractic is a pseudo scientific alternative medicine that
is concerned with the diagnosis and treatment of mechanical disorders
of the musculo skeletal system, especially the spine. My name
is Lull Berlante and this is Prodigy. I've never been
(01:12):
to a chiropractor. The only interaction I've had was ten
years ago when one hired me to shoot a video
for their website, remember seeing multi level marketing products in
their waiting area and getting the general feeling that they
were the medical equivalent of a snake oil salesman or salesperson.
It was actually a woman. That's the mindset I had
going into this episode. And actually the more I learned,
(01:34):
the weirder it sounded. See. At the heart of chiropractic
treatment is the sub luxation. Chiropractors believe that disease and
injury is caused by a misaligned vertebrae, which causes interference
in the vital flow of the nervous system. D D
Son b J. Wrote nine nine quote. Chiropractors have found
(01:54):
that in every disease that is supposed to be contagious
a cause in the spine, in the spinal column, we
will find a sublixation that corresponds to every type of disease.
If we had one cases of smallpox, I can prove
to you where in one you will find a sublixation,
and you will find the same conditions in the other.
Ninety I adjust one and return its functions to normal.
(02:17):
There is no contagious disease. There is no infection. There
is a cause internal to man that makes of his
body in a certain spot more or less a breeding
ground for microbes. It is a place where they can
multiply propagate, and then because they become so many, they
are classed as a cause. So this makes me very skeptical,
but I'm open to the idea that maybe I just
(02:40):
don't fully understand it yet. I do recognize the effect
the mind has over the body, But why would a
sublixation correspond to an infectious disease? And how would it
cause hearing loss? The origins of chiropractic are rooted in
holistic medicine. D. D. Palmer believed that people have a
divine inn energy which all OUs for self healing. Spinal
(03:02):
sublixations cause interference, which interrupts the ability to heal oneself.
Since then, chiropractors have split into two basic schools of thought.
They're known as the straits and the mixers. The straits
prescribed Todd's philosophy and view sublixations as the soul cause
and manipulations as the sole cure of all human disease.
(03:23):
Mixers are more open to science and believe that sublixations
are just one of the causes and combined treatments with
that of other disciplines. While mixers are more mainstream and
currently make up the majority of chiropractors, they do believe
that sublixations contribute to most internal organ disorders. D. D.
Palmer believed that mixers were polluting the sacred teachings. Since
(03:44):
the time of D. DE Palmer, the field has seen
a lot of growth. There's an estimated seventy thousand registered
chiropractors in the US, with ten thousand more in training.
If the origin is so questionable, then why has there
been so much growth. Chiropractors counter Wikipedia or anyone that
is skeptical with the argument that they simply just don't understand.
(04:05):
In fact, there has been research showing moderate results treating
low back and neck pain for manipulations, but that's kind
of where convincing evidence currently ends. If we come back
to the divide between straits and mixers, it paints a
picture of the disconnect. Mixers use manipulation of sublixations as
a tool to treat low back and neck pain, while
straits believed that sublixations are the cause of nearly every
(04:27):
disease or disorder. But just because DD's belief was questionable
doesn't necessarily mean he didn't stumble upon something scientifically valid. However,
if you dig a little deeper, you'll find that d
D was trained in osteopathy before he founded chiropractic. Osteopathy
is a branch of medical practice that emphasizes the treatment
of medical disorders through the manipulation and massage of the bones, joints,
(04:51):
and muscles. So d D combined osteopathy with spiritualism and
came up with chiropractic. In my personal opinion, mixers can
provide value and are evidence based. Well. Straits are observation based,
which means they gained validation of their treatment from what
they've personally observed. They aren't deceiving patients. They've just had
personal experiences which convinced them that the treatment is valid.
(05:15):
And it's very difficult to tell someone their personal experiences
aren't valid. If someone sees an alien spacecraft, I could
spend weeks explaining all the different possibilities for why they
are mistaken, but I still probably won't convince them. This
leaves me the question how valid our personal experiences versus
scientific evidence or the lack of I spoke to a
(05:37):
straight while working on this episode, and while he was
a really nice guy, the example he used to help
me understand his view was questionable. He believes that COVID
is infecting more people because the media reports about it
a lot, which makes people believe it's going to harm them.
Disbelief makes them more likely to get a serious case
of it. He made this point using the example of Haiti. Haiti,
(05:59):
with the population of eleven million, has had a little
over twenty thou COVID cases with just five and fifty
five deaths, even though they have a poorly funded healthcare system,
a lack of vaccines, and a large disregard for masks
and social distancing. They didn't even accept the first allotment
of the astrosenica vaccines they could have received. Why has
(06:20):
Haiti not had serious spikes like the rest of the world.
Is it because they aren't concerned with it and therefore
aren't as affected by it. Maybe, But if you dig
a little deeper, you're finding the population of Haiti is
quite young compared to other countries. Younger people are at
a lower risk for death, and since it support country,
many people can't afford to go the doctor, and the
(06:41):
record keeping isn't very good, so many cases and desks
go unreported or misreported. And lastly, Haiti is seeing a
spike with the new variant. So while this argument quickly
breaks down when you analyze it, it was used to
convince me by a straight but all it really did
was convinced me that straits are influenced by unsupported beliefs.
Wall mixers incorporate evidence based research. I wanted to understand
(07:05):
how mixers approached treating patients, so our reselts to Dr
Jeff lang Made. He helps chiropractors grow their clinics and
is the very well spoken host of a podcast called
The Evidence Based Chiropractor. So when somebody comes in with pain,
is really three primary causes that we look back to
or evaluate as doctors and specifically as chiropractors. One is physical,
(07:28):
What physical stress has somebody been under? You know, in
habits that we do day in and day out form
the majority of what I'm going to discuss here. If
are we moving enough? You know, our bodies are designed
to move. Are we sitting eight hours at a computer
and then commuting an hour into work and spending all
that time in a seated position as opposed to up
and moving. That will take its toll over time. Again,
(07:49):
we could do that for days, weeks, or months, but
as months become years, become decades, if we're not balancing
that out with proactive exercise, then the lack of movement
can catch up with us and certainly you know, accelerate
degenerative changes, et cetera. Now, on the other side, you
do have a slim percentage of people that overdo it,
right if somebody that goes to the gym and there's
working out so much that they're in a chronic state
(08:10):
of injury. But the bottom line is physical stress. How
we use and move our body is one aspect of
our health. Another aspect of our health that I think
all physicians look at is the mental component, And specifically
with chronic pain and spinal pain, low back neck pain,
the mental aspect of it is huge. Not only is
it very debilitating and it could be depressing to struggle
(08:34):
with low back pain or neck pain, but additionally there's
a fear of movement that's real. Very often people who
have an acute low back injury or an acute neck injury,
there's a fear of movement when they're going to a chiropractor,
if they're going to physical therapy, they're scared to move
because they're scared of feeling that pain again. Now the
(08:54):
irony there is that movement is often the best medicine,
no pun intended to help some the hell, however, it
can be challenging, and that's a real thing. So mental
stress can play a huge role in our overall health
and wellness, and specifically in our ability to recover and
recuperate as well. In the final component, the third component
(09:17):
we talked about physical, we talked about mental is chemical,
or if you want to think about that as what
you put into your body. You know, are you putting
good fuel into your body or are you're not putting
good fuel into your body? A lot of that is
dependent upon our state of inflammation. So if you're eating
fried foods and these merry unhealthy foods all day every day, well,
(09:37):
your body is gonna be sensitized and it's gonna be inflamed,
and any little thing that goes on has the propensity
to cause pain much easier than if you are deflamed,
or you're you're you're eating whole foods, you're eating organic foods,
and we could go into diet in nutrition. However, mental stress,
chemical stress, and physical stress ultimately play a huge role
(09:58):
in whether we are nically ill or whether we are
chronically well. And what we've seen and what I've seen
the literature is that over six of individual specific in
the United States have some chronic disease going on. In
an overwhelming majority of those, you can tie back to
lifestyle habits. So as a chiropractor, we see acute patients, which, again,
(10:19):
somebody who has an injury is very clear as to
what happened and they're looking to recover from that. But
the second component are these chronic injuries where something might
sneak in over time or I don't know, my back
just started bugging me and I noticed it and I
tried to think not think about it, and now all
of a sudden, it's really caught up to me. And
those chronic cases can be a little bit more difficult
(10:41):
to uncover the true cause, but it can make a
huge lifestyle impact when you're able to help somebody live
a higher quality of life and get moving again. Many
people are unaware of how healthy they can be, but
it does take two to tango it's not just the
chiropractor or the doctor's responsibility. A lot of responsibility falls
all so to the patient to live their life in
(11:02):
a way that promotes health instead of discourages it. When
you do think that the person um is experiencing a
lot of mental stress or anxiety, what sort of things
do you recommend? Yeah, mental stress or anxiety is a
is a huge component to spine pain and chronic pain
in general. And while chiropractors are definitely not psychologists or
(11:25):
psychiatrist by any stretch, and those professions have their distinct
role in it when we're dealing with specifically spine pain,
the mental component of getting over the fear of movement
is probably the number one aspect of what a chiropractor
can help. But so how do you do that. You
do that by starting slow. You do that by gaining confidence,
(11:47):
and you do that by really guiding individuals to health.
You know, it's not about loading up on how much
weight can you lift when somebody is injured just to
get them moving, But it's a matter of just going
through it. Might be starting with simple range of motion
exercises and supporting and guiding and being there. That's really
can make a huge difference in the ability for somebody
(12:08):
to expedite or make their recovery quicker is just overcoming
that fear of movement in motion, and I think the
best way to do that is to be encouraging, to
be in tune, and also to prepare set agreements and expectations.
Anytime you're dealing with the patient, that's some of the
most important thing. Anybody has been injured and going into
(12:29):
the doctor's office, it's intimidating. And I can speak for myself,
like I mean going into just the dentist for myself,
I'm like, I don't know what's happening. These people are new,
what's going on. You know, that just adds stress to
the whole situation. So I think whether you're a chiropractor
or any provider, really setting agreements and expectations, letting the
patient know, Hey, here's what we're gonna be doing today.
(12:50):
We're gonna go through some simple range of motion exercises.
I know that you're here because of your low back,
and I know that you're probably a little scared to
get moving because of the pain you've been experienced. However,
here's what we're going to do, and here's why we're
going to do it, and if at any point in
time you know you're experiencing challenges you're apprehensive, just let
me know and we can modify in a way that
(13:11):
makes you comfortable and also helps get the results that
we both want. A lot of it comes down to
agreements and expectations and letting people know not only what
you want to do together, not what you're going to
do to them, but what you're going to do together
and why you are going to do it. You think
the majority of the time that's related to fear of movements.
I'm assuming that's because they're feeling pain. In your opinion,
(13:35):
and you're not like a psychologist or psychiatrist, but like that,
you know, anxiety not related to fear of movement um
plays a factor in the pain that they're experiencing. Yeah, definitely,
there's a huge link between depression and low back pain.
I think that's been really well established over the last
twenty years plus, is that you know, low back pain
(13:55):
and depression sort of sit and mix and mingle together.
So as a chiropractor, I think anytime you see a
patient that you think is you know, really clinically depressed,
it's important to ask those questions. A lot of times
we'll get that on our initial intake. When you're doing
an intake with a new patient as a chiropractor, you're
gonna ask all of those questions, what other healthcare providers
are they seeing, what medications are they taking, so you
(14:17):
kind of get clued into their overall state of health
and wellness. And clearly, I think if there's an opportunity
to make a referral to another healthcare provider that's gonna
be able to assist the patient, then that's definitely something
obviously within our scope and ear within the expectations of
you know, I think what all chiropractors would hope of
each other and what the patients would would hope of chiropractors.
(14:37):
Um but absolutely depression from and that could happen for
a variety of reasons. Right, maybe there isn't even that
acute injury, and it's not necessarily the fear of movement,
but it's it could be totally unrelated to their spine
pain and depression and spine pain absolutely lived together and
overcoming mental challenges for men many people is a huge
(15:01):
part of getting well from muscular, skeletal or spinal issues.
Even though they seem totally separate, they're just seemed to
be intertwined. And a lot of it comes down to
quality of life. And I'll give you a little bit
of an example when when I say that if you
hurt your finger, for instance, you might be able to
make accommodations then you know, use your other hand for
(15:22):
a task that you need to do, or sort of
work around it in a relatively easy fashion. Of course,
there's exceptions, but when you hurt your low back, it's
very very difficult to do anything without feeling that pain.
It's very difficult to get enough rest and recovery at night,
sleep becomes an issue. It's very difficult to do those
hobbies and spending time with your family and getting up
(15:43):
and moving. Quite often, it's exceptionally distracting from work related activities,
whether those activities are our computer activities or whether their
physical activities. So you know, spine pain just affects people's
lives overall in such a multidimensional way that there just
tends to be a very very big link between spinal
and or musculoskeletal issues and depression and mental challenges. How
(16:07):
often do you treat things that uh like as do
and don't show up on like an m R I
or an X ray scan. You know that is a
great question. Uh, you know, as a matter of things
showing up on an X ray or m R I, I
I think sometimes the challenge is exactly the opposite. And
what I mean by that is, you know, I'm sure
that there's gonna be a few listeners out there that
(16:29):
you know, I've gone and got an X ray and
m R I because you know, something was bothering them,
and the twenty seven pages of findings came back at
them like, oh my gosh, I had no idea this
much was wrong with me. Um, and that you know
that tends to be. This is really the art of
a good chiropractor and a good doctor. It's what I
used to tell patients all the time. My job is
to separate the not perfect from the problems. X rays
(16:53):
and m r S. Identify every single thing that's quote
unquote not perfect, but not perfect is far I'm a problem.
The physician's job is to understand the case history, to
understand why the patients there and what they're dealing with,
and to really identify which of these not perfects is
the most likely problem or issue, and that is really
(17:16):
the art and skill of a great doctor, a great chiropractor,
any type of provider is really being able to do that.
So it's very i would say, it's less frequent that
you don't see something on an image. It's more frequent
that you see a whole bunch of things that might
be the normal process of aging, that might be you know,
(17:37):
just incidental findings, as we'd say, meaning yet people are
walking around with disk bulges and they're not necessarily feeling
any pain at all. But if a patient comes back
and you know, they might have a problem at one
level of their spine, but they see that there's six
or seven disc bulgies, they're freaking out, saying, oh my gosh,
do I have to get all of these things taken
(17:58):
care of? And sometimes the answers yes, but quite often
the answer is no. And it's really, again a matter
of sifting through all of those not perfects and figuring
out which of those is the actual problem or issue
at hand. All right, let's take a quick break to
manipulate our sublixations. You're right back. Welcome back to Prodigy.
(18:20):
I play computer games, and I hit the shift key
with my left pinky. Um, I guess this maybe I
don't know, do you guys? If you guys treat like
digit and like joint stuff and like, okay, So it's
a repetitive motion because you know, I do it all
the time because it's like one, it's my push to
talk button. So I would experience pain in that and
not like all the time. But if I like push
(18:41):
on it or whatever, what would you suggest for something
like that? So that's a good question. So I'll give
you him account of my blanket caveat here, which is
you know, very difficult to and imprudent to, you know,
assassin without a full case history and examination. However, repetitive
stress injuries are common. So as you described clicking a mouse,
(19:01):
regardless of what finger it might be clicking a key,
repetitive stress is challenging on the body. Our body loves balance.
So if it is if you're overdoing it with one
motion and consequently you're not taken care of it when
you're not doing that motion, that tends to be some
of the biggest challenges. So that could be a tendon
(19:22):
apathy and it's sort of an in or a tendonitis
and inflammation of the tendon could be a very likely
cause for an injury like that. Now, in a general sense,
what would be recommended for a repetitive or an overuth
century A lot of times inflammation sort of has crept
up and into it like a golfer's elbow if you
(19:42):
want to if you ever heard of tennis elbow or
golfer's elbow, those are also like tendonitis type injuries where
attendants become inflamed because of repetitive use. Right, so how
do you get over that? Wow? Rest and recovery is key.
So in extreme cases you really got to take time
off of the activity, bombing it out. But most of
the time people can find relief by just taking care
(20:06):
of and reducing the inflammation when they're not doing that motion.
So that might be uh, you know, using ice on
the area, going through some range of motion exercises. And
it also might be just taking breaks when you can,
so instead of going at something for x amount of
hours without taking a break, just trying to whenever you
can every fifteen or twenty minutes, taking a short break
(20:28):
and using some ice. Things like that. What is the
sort of the origin of how chiropractic I guess you
would call it chiropractic care. Okay, Uh, Like, how did
it get started? Yeah, so chiropractics started actually in eighteen five,
so well over I guess, well over twenty years ago
at this point time. Uh. And it started in of
all places, in Iowa by a gentleman named D. D. Palmer. Indeed,
(20:53):
Palmer was actually a magnetic healer at the time who
had a janitor basically in the building where he was
either practicing or working. I'm not sure, um, and this
is this is this story. Get this story is a
little weird. I'm gonna on a caveat this by this
story is a little bit weird. But the janitor was
named Harvey Lillard, and he was having difficulty hearing. And
(21:15):
I'm not sure exactly what led to what happened, but uh,
D D. Palmer thought that he felt a bone out
of place in Harvey Lillard's spine and d D, as
he says, racked it into place, which we now call
spond a manipulation or adjustment. And lo and behold, as
the story goes, Harvey Lillard said, I can hear the
footsteps of the horses on the street, and that was
(21:38):
the first time he had an X amount of years,
so um, you know that was really the origin. Now
things have evolved, have changed, and have been refined over
the last hundred and twenty years to a great degree,
but that's ultimately where it started. And from that point forward,
I guess the biggest tenants of chiropractic and where it started.
(21:58):
Even with that, as you can tell, all was not
necessarily a medication that was given, but it was really
about using the bodies you know, own systems to be
able to heal itself. And I think at the root
of it, while we've evolved quite a bit, the tenants
of hey, our bodies are self healing and self regulating
by nature, and by definition, that's how we maintain homeostasis.
(22:20):
And you know it's only in extreme events that really
do we need aggressive interventions. I still think that's the case,
and we look at medicine even over the last hundred years,
I think the pendulum has swung back to being more conservative, right,
and more of the mind body connection, and we've seen
the popularity of that, and that's really been where chiropractic
and what chiropractic has been rooted in since the beginning
(22:42):
and chiropractors over time became more and more focused in
the spine because that's where the nervous system communicates and
coordinates the rest of the body. Right, we have our
brain up top and our skull, and then our spinal
cord runs back down through our vertebra or our spine,
and then the nerve of branches go out the left
and right side into our all of our selves of
(23:04):
our body. Right in our neck, those nerves go out
and transmit down into our shoulders, arms and hands, in
our mid back, around our chest, and our low back
down into our buttocks, legs, feet, and toes. So really
understanding that many times challenges to the spine can affect
other body systems and regions is one of the areas where,
(23:24):
for instance, when somebody has leg pain and it's caused
by a low back issue, sometimes chiropractic care adjusting and
taking care of the low back can make a huge
difference and the leg pain goes away, even though the
chiropractor might never touch the leg. So a lot of
musculo skeletal challenges can be not all, but many can
be traced back to spinal issues, and chiropractors focus on
how can we address this in a natural and holistic way. Great.
(23:48):
And um, how would you say that, um, chiropractors have
changed up their approach over the last fifty years. Yeah,
over the last fifty years has been sort of uh,
I'd say a pretty big shift in how chiropractors have
adjusted their approach. So it starts with, you know, if
we trace it all the way back, maybe just a
touch before that, to the nineteen twenties and thirties, chiropractors
(24:11):
were being jailed for practicing medicine without a license. Um.
And you know, which was a sort of ironic because
many chirobrodters weren't trying to disperse medicine. They were trying
to you know, trying to provide healthcare to their communities
in a natural way. Um. But by that point, the
American Medical Association had gained a lot of steam and
headway and and sort of lobbying power. So all of
that came to a head probably almost about fifty years ago. Now, um,
(24:34):
where you know, basically I'm gonna oversimplify this, but basically
there was the A M. A version. It's like called
the Wilke case, and it was the A M A
versus the chiropractic profession, and the sort of came out
that the a m A had tried to extinguish the
chiropractic profession amongst others, where they wanted you know, everybody
to become medical doctors or kind of you know, not
not practice at all um and chiropractical chiropractors. I guess
(24:57):
you could essentially say one that case they won the
right to be able to be a licensed independent, uh
you know, physician, right. So you know, with that, I
think also came a lot of changes. So over the
last twenty to thirty years, the biggest areas of opportunity
and biggest changes that I've seen within chiropractic, I would say,
are more in the sports performance realm. So you know,
(25:21):
while if you looked back fifty years, you know, chiropractors
were not really integrated with any medical systems at all.
Today that's not the case at all. I've practiced at
a few different multi disciplinary and orthopedic groups with medical
doctors side by side. There are chiropractors now throughout the
v A system. For instance, the United States taking care
(25:42):
of um, you know, our military personnel. There are chiropractors
on nearly all major sports teams, collegiate, professional, and it's
very very common for chiropractors to be a part of
an overall healthcare team. And fifty years ago that just
wasn't the case. We were really really distinct and really
isolated and an island from a majority of other healthcare providers,
(26:02):
where now I think everybody is more appreciative of the
team approach and also more appreciative of the individual skill
set that everybody can bring to the table. If somebody
has been involved in a huge accident and they need
immediate surgical intervention, hey, that's not a chiropractor's place and role.
It's great to practice in a place where there might
be assertion that can take care of that, But then
(26:23):
the chiropractor in the physical therapist for instance, can help
that patient rehab afterward. So I think really identifying roles
in a team approach is something that's dramatically changed over
the last forty to fifty years. The name of your
podcast is the Evidence Based Chiropractor, So it seems to
me like, and this may be just be like a
(26:43):
negative stereotype that I had, but like you guys seem
to be shifting more towards um scientific evidence research and
then also incorporating some other things into it as well. Yeah,
I would, I would agree with you. I think that
there's a couple of different ways to look at that, right.
There's the there's the practical way in the historical way,
(27:04):
and I think both are true. Meaning, you know, my
great grandfather was actually a chiropractor in the nineteen twenties
and thirties and so up and up until the forties.
So when I look back at that, I'm like, man,
the landscape was so different. There were not a ton
of chiropractic journals that you certainly we're not going to
have a chiropractic study published in a medical journal at
that point in time. So there was just sort of
(27:25):
this isolation that led chiropractic to kind of do its
own thing. But again, I think over the last twenty
to thirty years now, we've seen so much published research
in you know, chiropractic focused journals that are peer reviewed,
that are esteemed, that are published worldwide and referenced on
pub med. We've seen chiropractic based studies published in Spine,
(27:46):
in the Spine Journal, in the British Medical Journal, in
you know, the New England Journal of medicine. In nearly
every esteemed journal, we've seen chiropractic focused papers come out.
So I don't think that that was I think it
was the opportunity that finally presented itself that really sort
(28:07):
of gave chiropractors the chance to showcase who we are
and and what we do. Now, one thing I will
say is that, you know, over time as well, chiropractic
as a whole, and it ties back to your last
question a little bit, but chiropractic as a whole has
continued to you know, evolve. So early on, there were
some of like the metaphysical within chiropractic, right, you know,
(28:29):
there's you know, there's and and some of this that
we found to be true and and some of it
is still up for discussion, and some of it seems
a little bit dated, um, but there was a metaphysical
component to chiropractic early on. Now, Incidentally, if we look
back at surgery and blood less and like, you know,
what was going on in other healthcare professions was not
wildly different in many ways. However, I would say that
(28:52):
while most other medical professions really have I guess in
some ways you'd say let go of the past and
built up on it. There are some chiropractors that still
practice in what I would refer to as a very
traditional sense now, and some of them are doing a
great job helping take care of people, absolutely, but some
of the nomenclature or the descriptions of how they do
(29:13):
things might be a little bit either oversimplified or they
might be a little bit dated. And sometimes when that
nomenclature goes out to another healthcare provider, it can seem like, Wow,
what the heck is that chiropractor doing. So some of
it's like a language transitional kind of thing, but overall,
I would also say that meant much of this is
(29:34):
the opportunity for chiropractors finally to be able to do
to do research, have funded research, and be able to
publish research on a on a nationwide and worldwide level.
Do you do preregistration? Is it like similar to um
like a medical study? Yep, So there's all yeah, I
mean chiropractics journals and studies they could there would be identical.
So there are you know, there are research reviews, there
(29:54):
are randomized control trials, there's double blinded randomized clinical trials.
There's protocol us for a try I mean the same hierarchy,
case studies, you name it. Uh, it's all out there
for sure. Great. And then I want to ask, when
you were talking about the like ones with like the
more traditional ones, is that like the terminology like straight
versus mixer that they maybe that's all outdated term too.
(30:16):
But yeah, that's that's a great question. So that is
it's a little bit of an outdated term at this
point in time. I think about fifteen or twenty years ago.
It's probably the height of when that was used. But
here's what exactly what that means. And in a chiropractic sense,
so a traditional straight chiropractor would mean adjustment only, meaning
you know, straight and narrow. I do one thing. My
job as a chiropractor is to adjust the spot. So
(30:39):
straight chiropractor usually has a exclusive scope. Not that they're
not that their state has limited to them to the scope.
They have the option to do other things, but they've
chosen to do one thing and one thing only. And
that's a just the spine. Now, as I said at
the top of the interview, that's the hallmark of chiropractic care.
That's kind of our chiropractic power tool. But those docs
(31:00):
used to do that and only that. Now, a mixer
in a in a traditional sense, quote unquote, is somebody
who mixes in other modalities. So that might be rehab,
that might be stretching, that might be soft tissue work, ice, heat,
electrical stimulation, ultrasound, all of those things would be what
(31:21):
why somebody would in a chiropractic sense, would be a mixer. Now,
at this point in time, those terms probably aren't used.
I haven't heard them used as often nearly in the
last five years as maybe I did in the first
five years of my practice, So I think that they're
more at this point historical than anything else. But if
you hear anybody use those terms, that's really the definition
(31:44):
a chiropractic. A mixer chiropractor mixes in other things into
their treatment beyond the adjustment itself, whereas a straight chiropractor
is exclusively focused on spinal manipulation or a chiropractic adjustment. Okay, great, Yeah.
My sister is a physical therapist and I guess they
like work their offices right next to a chiropractor and
they recommend patients to each other. And she said, the
(32:06):
way that you can tell if one's good or about
is whether or not they say that they can treat
a cold. Yes, it's that's an interesting point. So incidentally,
my wife's a physical therapist as well, so I always
say that gives me carte blanche to say whatever I
want about physical therapists. But um, physical therapists are great,
I think, uh, And many times I've worked together with
tons of physical therapists practice out one of the orthopedic
(32:29):
groups I worked in, I worked within a physical therapy location.
So I think there's a couple ways to break down
what you said specifically. Number one is is a chiropractic
adjustment going to directly treat and cure the common cold?
That's a stretch, right, And you know, like now I
(32:49):
will say, however, if somebody has a cold and they
are you know, their nutrition stinks, right, you know they're
super stressed out, they're moving very well because their body hurts,
and our bodies are meant to move, and the more
sedentary we are, the more likely we are to get sick. Well, absolutely,
in an indirect sense, a chiropractor, if you they can
(33:12):
help somebody feel better, move better, recommend nutritional supplements to
kind of strengthen you know, their ability to send things
off or get well. I think that's not necessarily a
stretch to say a chiropractor can help somebody. But I
think it would be a stretch to insinuate that there's
a specific adjustment that could you know, reverse a cold
(33:34):
with just one crunch. Right, So there's a little bit
of gray to what you describe. I would agree that
if a chiropractor was out there and there, you know,
unique selling proposition in the field was that they take
care of upper respiratory challenges, that might be a little
bit suspect. But if a chiropractor that is focusing the
neuromuscular skeletal system had a patient with a cold and said, hey,
(33:58):
you know, getting moving, making sure that all the segments
of your spine are moving correctly, and let's have a
conversation about your nutrition. I don't think that's a stretch
or a bad idea whatsoever. You failed the test, kid,
All right, let's take a quick break to do some
evidence space research. You're right back, Welcome back to Prodigy.
(34:20):
My only experience of the chiropractor I did like a
video for one long time ago, and I remember that
she was doing manipulation on a baby and she was
like holding it up by its back feet. Do you
guys do that sort of thing or is that common
or I'm just curious, like what benefit it could have provided.
Pediatric chiropractic is common. It's estimated that somewhere between two
(34:40):
to ten percent of children will see a chiropractor at
some point, you know, during their childhood or adolescents. And additionally,
there are chiropractic certifications and diplomat programs that are specifically
around pediatric care. So I would say that if you
are apparent and you are looking for a car proctor
for your child, asking about you know, certifications or diplomats
(35:03):
is a good idea because there's some absolutely great programs
out there that help chiropractors be super specific with their
pediatric care now in terms of kind of hanging babies
upside down and things like that. Um, I'm not a
pediatric focused chiropractor, so I don't want to misanswer the question,
but you know, I have seen that, you know, you know,
(35:25):
a baby upside down and you're holding one leg and
you're seeing how a baby moves. Now in terms of
exactly how that plays in diagnostically or what they're looking
for as somebody is not a focused on being a
pediatric chiropractor. I cannot, you know, exactly say, but one
thing I would say in terms of can chiropractors provide
benefit to a pediatric population? Absolutely, I think that's you know,
(35:49):
unequivocal in terms of can they add benefit? And some
of that comes down to I would give a couple
of easy examples. Um, as somebody gets older, you know,
an older pediatric patient meaning a teenager. Sports, I mean,
sports is just a huge area of opportunity, you know,
again injury recovery, you know, reducing likelihood of injury, sports
performance huge benefits in areas of opportunity there. If we
(36:10):
bring that back a little bit earlier in childhood, we
see just like crazy and hopefully this is changing now
with like iPads and stuff like that, but like backpacks
that way like eighty pounds in the kid weighs sixty pounds, right,
and it's like these are just challenges waiting to happen, right,
you know, it's like one strap of a backpack. It's
like postural deviations and postural imbalances. The you know, when
(36:31):
you see that early on in life, it greatly increases
the likelihood that it's going to progress later on in life.
So being able to really identify, Okay, what stretches, what exercises?
Can this patient do this, this this kid do this
child do to help kind of like balance out, you
know what I mean? Or and and or like guide
the parents. Hey, here's how you could load this back back.
(36:52):
Here's you know, something you might look at you, something
you might ask is definitely true. And if we even
go earlier than that, I mean, heck, we all learned
to walk by fallen bazillion times, right, So there's you know,
there's like I say, trauma. I don't mean like you
need to have surgery trauma, but I mean there's trauma
as we get up and movement, as we're crawling, as
we're walking, and those sort of things. You know, they
(37:12):
can cause aches and pains and people of all ages.
So you know, those are always I think important things.
And then if I if I go back to the
earliest component to answer your question very very directly, Yeah,
there are patients that come out at patients and his
childhrendn't that come out with like torta callis and things
like that. And while physical therapy can be extremely beneficial,
my wife is actually a pediatric physical therapist to be
(37:33):
super specific. Um, So, things like torta callas and that
can affect a baby's ability to latch on and breastfeed
as a small child, and you know, being able to
ensure that child has good range emotion in the cervical
spine is very important. There's a little bit across over there, right.
I think historically that's been the realm of physical pediatric
physical therapist. I think it do a fantastic job with
(37:54):
those types of things. But there's plenty of fantastic chiropractors
out there that can do very similar things and help
with latching and that that sort of thing. Early on.
Do you have any sort of, um, broad advice for
maybe somebody who's interested in chiropractic care or takeaways that
you want people to have about it or anything like that. Yeah,
(38:14):
if you're thinking about seeing a chiropractor, I would say
the best thing you can do is ask for or
for all and ask a friend. Um. You know, when
we talked, I talked to chiropractors all time and speak
around the world and things like that, and we always say, man,
the best patients we get are those that are referred in, right,
because they come in like ready, they know a little
bit about that practice, they're confident, they're comfortable, and I
think that's always I think it with the same works
(38:36):
the other way. So if you're patient looking for a chiropractor,
I would say the same thing. Ask around, Ask friends,
ask family, ask colleagues or co workers, and find out, hey,
have you had a great experience somewhere? You know, who
have you seen? And that goes a long way, you know,
or for a healthcare professional, for a service oriented healthcare professional,
I think getting a referral from a friend or family
(38:58):
member is absolutely the best way to go. Now if
you want to go one step beyond that, A couple
other ways that I'd recommend learning about chiropractors that are
great in your area would be, you know, you can
look online, so you know, look online, check out their website,
check out their Google reviews, check out their Facebook page,
and see if they're putting out content that resonates with you,
(39:20):
see if their vibe is what you're looking for, right,
So you know, I wouldn't just go on one of
those things alone, just Google reviews, for instance, and then
look nowhere else, or just look at their website. But
take five or ten minutes check out their website, give it,
give it a quick gander. Check out their Google reviews,
and make sure that other people you believe that they
got great care and great service and a great patient experience.
(39:40):
And then check out their Facebook feed and make sure
that they're consistently putting out great content and things that
resonate with you. I think if you checked out those
three things, you'd have a really great idea of kind
of what that chiropractor is about. Because, as we discussed earlier,
different chiropractors kind of practice in different ways, and you
might not be looking for a sports chiropractor, or you
might be looking for a sports car director. You know,
(40:00):
there's a variety of different um you know, focuses of practice.
So checking those things three things out would be a
great way. And the final component would be you could
always ask another healthcare professional. So I just want to
give a little bit of a caution with this because
while I said, and it's true that chiropractors work now
in an integrated way more than ever before, there still
(40:21):
is a significant portion of the medical field that has
not worked intimately with chiropractors. So if you ask a
medical professional and they sort of he and haw over it.
I would caution you against thinking that chiropractic is not
right for you. There's many guidelines out there that showcase
for low back, for neck pain, and for headaches, you know,
(40:41):
non pharmacological care, movement based care. The care that chiropractors
deliver is the recommended first line treatment. However, there still
are a lot of healthcare providers that don't make those
referrals against the guidelines. Sometimes it's not due to malice,
it's just that they just don't No, it's just that
they don't know a chiropractor. It's might that they may
(41:03):
have a bad experience before. So it's quite often, again
not out of malice or spite, but it's out of
ignorance or lack of information. However, if you don't have
a referral from a friend, if you're struggling to get
internet connection or really find somebody that I think asking
your other healthcare providers if they've ever worked with a chiropractor,
and if if so, who is a great way to
(41:24):
find somebody who would be a good fit for you. Yeah,
because I mean you've thoroughly convinced me. But you know,
Wikipedia is not kind to chiropractic. Wikipedia is not kind
to many professions. Yeah, Wikipedia is definitely you know, and
it's funny you mentioned that because there's a you know,
there's this thing I think Wikipedia opens up with a
chiropractic is a pseudo science, like you know, which is
(41:46):
absolutely crazy, because chiropractic has representation at the World Health Organization.
I've worked in hospital settings and you know, I mean, heck,
the the United States military and VA system has hired
chiropractics to provide care. So if it were that, while
all than crazy, I can assure you, Um, and insurance
covers it absolutely insurance insurance has covered it for decades,
(42:07):
you know, decades at this point in time. So um, yeah,
you know, I don't know who the editors are of
the Wikipedia articles, but it's funny you used to mention
it because that's been a bone of contention a lot
of chiropractic groups online, Like man I changed this and
like by the time I had saved practically it was
like re edited back. So um, they're just you know, again,
there is I would say I would agree with you.
(42:28):
The Wikipedia articles are unkind to to say the least,
but hey, there's all types of healthcare professionals and providers
out there. There's fantastic medical doctors and there are ones
that you wouldn't want to send you your worst enemy too.
And to be super clear, these chiropractors are the same way.
There are plenty of awesome chiropractors out there, um, and
there are plenty, there are some chiro rectors that you
(42:51):
would not want to send your worst enemy to. Like
all fields and professions that have tens of thousands of providers,
there's all makes and models, and that's why asking for
referrals and doing your due diligence ultimately it will always
get you the best results. Thanks for listening to Prodigy.
(43:12):
You can find Dr lange Maid online at Jeff Langmaid
dot com or The Evidence Based Chiropractor dot com. If
you're a chiropractor or want to learn more about it,
check out this podcast, The Evidence Based Chiropractor. Prodigy was
creating produced by me loberl Anti. The executive producer is
Tyler Klang. For more podcast in my Heart Radio, visit
the Ihear Radio app or wherever we get your podcasts.
Prodigy is a production of I Heart Radio. Harvey Lillard
was a janitor in the late eighteen hundreds. One day,
he moved the wrong way, which made an audible pop
in his back, and he immediately lost the majority of
his hearing. Sometime later, while cleaning the office of a
magnetic healer named Daniel David Palmer, he bent over to
empty the trash. Daniel David Palmer, who went by de
(00:23):
d noticed that Lillard had a vertebrate out of position,
so he had lillard life face down on the floor
and adjusted it back into place. The next day, Lillard
made the now famous quote, I can hear the rackets
on the streets. Two years later, Did E. Palmer opened
the first school of chiropractic. It's been over a century
(00:44):
since then, and this is the first sentence about it
on Wikipedia. Chiropractic is a pseudo scientific alternative medicine that
is concerned with the diagnosis and treatment of mechanical disorders
of the musculo skeletal system, especially the spine. My name
is Lull Berlante and this is Prodigy. I've never been
(01:12):
to a chiropractor. The only interaction I've had was ten
years ago when one hired me to shoot a video
for their website, remember seeing multi level marketing products in
their waiting area and getting the general feeling that they
were the medical equivalent of a snake oil salesman or salesperson.
It was actually a woman. That's the mindset I had
going into this episode. And actually the more I learned,
(01:34):
the weirder it sounded. See. At the heart of chiropractic
treatment is the sub luxation. Chiropractors believe that disease and
injury is caused by a misaligned vertebrae, which causes interference
in the vital flow of the nervous system. D D
Son b J. Wrote nine nine quote. Chiropractors have found
(01:54):
that in every disease that is supposed to be contagious
a cause in the spine, in the spinal column, we
will find a sublixation that corresponds to every type of disease.
If we had one cases of smallpox, I can prove
to you where in one you will find a sublixation,
and you will find the same conditions in the other.
Ninety I adjust one and return its functions to normal.
(02:17):
There is no contagious disease. There is no infection. There
is a cause internal to man that makes of his
body in a certain spot more or less a breeding
ground for microbes. It is a place where they can
multiply propagate, and then because they become so many, they
are classed as a cause. So this makes me very skeptical,
but I'm open to the idea that maybe I just
(02:40):
don't fully understand it yet. I do recognize the effect
the mind has over the body, But why would a
sublixation correspond to an infectious disease? And how would it
cause hearing loss? The origins of chiropractic are rooted in
holistic medicine. D. D. Palmer believed that people have a
divine inn energy which all OUs for self healing. Spinal
(03:02):
sublixations cause interference, which interrupts the ability to heal oneself.
Since then, chiropractors have split into two basic schools of thought.
They're known as the straits and the mixers. The straits
prescribed Todd's philosophy and view sublixations as the soul cause
and manipulations as the sole cure of all human disease.
(03:23):
Mixers are more open to science and believe that sublixations
are just one of the causes and combined treatments with
that of other disciplines. While mixers are more mainstream and
currently make up the majority of chiropractors, they do believe
that sublixations contribute to most internal organ disorders. D. D.
Palmer believed that mixers were polluting the sacred teachings. Since
(03:44):
the time of D. DE Palmer, the field has seen
a lot of growth. There's an estimated seventy thousand registered
chiropractors in the US, with ten thousand more in training.
If the origin is so questionable, then why has there
been so much growth. Chiropractors counter Wikipedia or anyone that
is skeptical with the argument that they simply just don't understand.
(04:05):
In fact, there has been research showing moderate results treating
low back and neck pain for manipulations, but that's kind
of where convincing evidence currently ends. If we come back
to the divide between straits and mixers, it paints a
picture of the disconnect. Mixers use manipulation of sublixations as
a tool to treat low back and neck pain, while
straits believed that sublixations are the cause of nearly every
(04:27):
disease or disorder. But just because DD's belief was questionable
doesn't necessarily mean he didn't stumble upon something scientifically valid. However,
if you dig a little deeper, you'll find that d
D was trained in osteopathy before he founded chiropractic. Osteopathy
is a branch of medical practice that emphasizes the treatment
of medical disorders through the manipulation and massage of the bones, joints,
(04:51):
and muscles. So d D combined osteopathy with spiritualism and
came up with chiropractic. In my personal opinion, mixers can
provide value and are evidence based. Well. Straits are observation based,
which means they gained validation of their treatment from what
they've personally observed. They aren't deceiving patients. They've just had
personal experiences which convinced them that the treatment is valid.
(05:15):
And it's very difficult to tell someone their personal experiences
aren't valid. If someone sees an alien spacecraft, I could
spend weeks explaining all the different possibilities for why they
are mistaken, but I still probably won't convince them. This
leaves me the question how valid our personal experiences versus
scientific evidence or the lack of I spoke to a
(05:37):
straight while working on this episode, and while he was
a really nice guy, the example he used to help
me understand his view was questionable. He believes that COVID
is infecting more people because the media reports about it
a lot, which makes people believe it's going to harm them.
Disbelief makes them more likely to get a serious case
of it. He made this point using the example of Haiti. Haiti,
(05:59):
with the population of eleven million, has had a little
over twenty thou COVID cases with just five and fifty
five deaths, even though they have a poorly funded healthcare system,
a lack of vaccines, and a large disregard for masks
and social distancing. They didn't even accept the first allotment
of the astrosenica vaccines they could have received. Why has
(06:20):
Haiti not had serious spikes like the rest of the world.
Is it because they aren't concerned with it and therefore
aren't as affected by it. Maybe, But if you dig
a little deeper, you're finding the population of Haiti is
quite young compared to other countries. Younger people are at
a lower risk for death, and since it support country,
many people can't afford to go the doctor, and the
(06:41):
record keeping isn't very good, so many cases and desks
go unreported or misreported. And lastly, Haiti is seeing a
spike with the new variant. So while this argument quickly
breaks down when you analyze it, it was used to
convince me by a straight but all it really did
was convinced me that straits are influenced by unsupported beliefs.
Wall mixers incorporate evidence based research. I wanted to understand
(07:05):
how mixers approached treating patients, so our reselts to Dr
Jeff lang Made. He helps chiropractors grow their clinics and
is the very well spoken host of a podcast called
The Evidence Based Chiropractor. So when somebody comes in with pain,
is really three primary causes that we look back to
or evaluate as doctors and specifically as chiropractors. One is physical,
(07:28):
What physical stress has somebody been under? You know, in
habits that we do day in and day out form
the majority of what I'm going to discuss here. If
are we moving enough? You know, our bodies are designed
to move. Are we sitting eight hours at a computer
and then commuting an hour into work and spending all
that time in a seated position as opposed to up
and moving. That will take its toll over time. Again,
(07:49):
we could do that for days, weeks, or months, but
as months become years, become decades, if we're not balancing
that out with proactive exercise, then the lack of movement
can catch up with us and certainly you know, accelerate
degenerative changes, et cetera. Now, on the other side, you
do have a slim percentage of people that overdo it,
right if somebody that goes to the gym and there's
working out so much that they're in a chronic state
(08:10):
of injury. But the bottom line is physical stress. How
we use and move our body is one aspect of
our health. Another aspect of our health that I think
all physicians look at is the mental component, And specifically
with chronic pain and spinal pain, low back neck pain,
the mental aspect of it is huge. Not only is
it very debilitating and it could be depressing to struggle
(08:34):
with low back pain or neck pain, but additionally there's
a fear of movement that's real. Very often people who
have an acute low back injury or an acute neck injury,
there's a fear of movement when they're going to a chiropractor,
if they're going to physical therapy, they're scared to move
because they're scared of feeling that pain again. Now the
(08:54):
irony there is that movement is often the best medicine,
no pun intended to help some the hell, however, it
can be challenging, and that's a real thing. So mental
stress can play a huge role in our overall health
and wellness, and specifically in our ability to recover and
recuperate as well. In the final component, the third component
(09:17):
we talked about physical, we talked about mental is chemical,
or if you want to think about that as what
you put into your body. You know, are you putting
good fuel into your body or are you're not putting
good fuel into your body? A lot of that is
dependent upon our state of inflammation. So if you're eating
fried foods and these merry unhealthy foods all day every day, well,
(09:37):
your body is gonna be sensitized and it's gonna be inflamed,
and any little thing that goes on has the propensity
to cause pain much easier than if you are deflamed,
or you're you're you're eating whole foods, you're eating organic foods,
and we could go into diet in nutrition. However, mental stress,
chemical stress, and physical stress ultimately play a huge role
(09:58):
in whether we are nically ill or whether we are
chronically well. And what we've seen and what I've seen
the literature is that over six of individual specific in
the United States have some chronic disease going on. In
an overwhelming majority of those, you can tie back to
lifestyle habits. So as a chiropractor, we see acute patients, which, again,
(10:19):
somebody who has an injury is very clear as to
what happened and they're looking to recover from that. But
the second component are these chronic injuries where something might
sneak in over time or I don't know, my back
just started bugging me and I noticed it and I
tried to think not think about it, and now all
of a sudden, it's really caught up to me. And
those chronic cases can be a little bit more difficult
(10:41):
to uncover the true cause, but it can make a
huge lifestyle impact when you're able to help somebody live
a higher quality of life and get moving again. Many
people are unaware of how healthy they can be, but
it does take two to tango it's not just the
chiropractor or the doctor's responsibility. A lot of responsibility falls
all so to the patient to live their life in
(11:02):
a way that promotes health instead of discourages it. When
you do think that the person um is experiencing a
lot of mental stress or anxiety, what sort of things
do you recommend? Yeah, mental stress or anxiety is a
is a huge component to spine pain and chronic pain
in general. And while chiropractors are definitely not psychologists or
(11:25):
psychiatrist by any stretch, and those professions have their distinct
role in it when we're dealing with specifically spine pain,
the mental component of getting over the fear of movement
is probably the number one aspect of what a chiropractor
can help. But so how do you do that. You
do that by starting slow. You do that by gaining confidence,
(11:47):
and you do that by really guiding individuals to health.
You know, it's not about loading up on how much
weight can you lift when somebody is injured just to
get them moving, But it's a matter of just going
through it. Might be starting with simple range of motion
exercises and supporting and guiding and being there. That's really
can make a huge difference in the ability for somebody
(12:08):
to expedite or make their recovery quicker is just overcoming
that fear of movement in motion, and I think the
best way to do that is to be encouraging, to
be in tune, and also to prepare set agreements and expectations.
Anytime you're dealing with the patient, that's some of the
most important thing. Anybody has been injured and going into
(12:29):
the doctor's office, it's intimidating. And I can speak for myself,
like I mean going into just the dentist for myself,
I'm like, I don't know what's happening. These people are new,
what's going on. You know, that just adds stress to
the whole situation. So I think whether you're a chiropractor
or any provider, really setting agreements and expectations, letting the
patient know, Hey, here's what we're gonna be doing today.
(12:50):
We're gonna go through some simple range of motion exercises.
I know that you're here because of your low back,
and I know that you're probably a little scared to
get moving because of the pain you've been experienced. However,
here's what we're going to do, and here's why we're
going to do it, and if at any point in
time you know you're experiencing challenges you're apprehensive, just let
me know and we can modify in a way that
(13:11):
makes you comfortable and also helps get the results that
we both want. A lot of it comes down to
agreements and expectations and letting people know not only what
you want to do together, not what you're going to
do to them, but what you're going to do together
and why you are going to do it. You think
the majority of the time that's related to fear of movements.
I'm assuming that's because they're feeling pain. In your opinion,
(13:35):
and you're not like a psychologist or psychiatrist, but like that,
you know, anxiety not related to fear of movement um
plays a factor in the pain that they're experiencing. Yeah, definitely,
there's a huge link between depression and low back pain.
I think that's been really well established over the last
twenty years plus, is that you know, low back pain
(13:55):
and depression sort of sit and mix and mingle together.
So as a chiropractor, I think anytime you see a
patient that you think is you know, really clinically depressed,
it's important to ask those questions. A lot of times
we'll get that on our initial intake. When you're doing
an intake with a new patient as a chiropractor, you're
gonna ask all of those questions, what other healthcare providers
are they seeing, what medications are they taking, so you
(14:17):
kind of get clued into their overall state of health
and wellness. And clearly, I think if there's an opportunity
to make a referral to another healthcare provider that's gonna
be able to assist the patient, then that's definitely something
obviously within our scope and ear within the expectations of
you know, I think what all chiropractors would hope of
each other and what the patients would would hope of chiropractors.
(14:37):
Um but absolutely depression from and that could happen for
a variety of reasons. Right, maybe there isn't even that
acute injury, and it's not necessarily the fear of movement,
but it's it could be totally unrelated to their spine
pain and depression and spine pain absolutely lived together and
overcoming mental challenges for men many people is a huge
(15:01):
part of getting well from muscular, skeletal or spinal issues.
Even though they seem totally separate, they're just seemed to
be intertwined. And a lot of it comes down to
quality of life. And I'll give you a little bit
of an example when when I say that if you
hurt your finger, for instance, you might be able to
make accommodations then you know, use your other hand for
(15:22):
a task that you need to do, or sort of
work around it in a relatively easy fashion. Of course,
there's exceptions, but when you hurt your low back, it's
very very difficult to do anything without feeling that pain.
It's very difficult to get enough rest and recovery at night,
sleep becomes an issue. It's very difficult to do those
hobbies and spending time with your family and getting up
(15:43):
and moving. Quite often, it's exceptionally distracting from work related activities,
whether those activities are our computer activities or whether their
physical activities. So you know, spine pain just affects people's
lives overall in such a multidimensional way that there just
tends to be a very very big link between spinal
and or musculoskeletal issues and depression and mental challenges. How
(16:07):
often do you treat things that uh like as do
and don't show up on like an m R I
or an X ray scan. You know that is a
great question. Uh, you know, as a matter of things
showing up on an X ray or m R I, I
I think sometimes the challenge is exactly the opposite. And
what I mean by that is, you know, I'm sure
that there's gonna be a few listeners out there that
(16:29):
you know, I've gone and got an X ray and
m R I because you know, something was bothering them,
and the twenty seven pages of findings came back at
them like, oh my gosh, I had no idea this
much was wrong with me. Um, and that you know
that tends to be. This is really the art of
a good chiropractor and a good doctor. It's what I
used to tell patients all the time. My job is
to separate the not perfect from the problems. X rays
(16:53):
and m r S. Identify every single thing that's quote
unquote not perfect, but not perfect is far I'm a problem.
The physician's job is to understand the case history, to
understand why the patients there and what they're dealing with,
and to really identify which of these not perfects is
the most likely problem or issue, and that is really
(17:16):
the art and skill of a great doctor, a great chiropractor,
any type of provider is really being able to do that.
So it's very i would say, it's less frequent that
you don't see something on an image. It's more frequent
that you see a whole bunch of things that might
be the normal process of aging, that might be you know,
(17:37):
just incidental findings, as we'd say, meaning yet people are
walking around with disk bulges and they're not necessarily feeling
any pain at all. But if a patient comes back
and you know, they might have a problem at one
level of their spine, but they see that there's six
or seven disc bulgies, they're freaking out, saying, oh my gosh,
do I have to get all of these things taken
(17:58):
care of? And sometimes the answers yes, but quite often
the answer is no. And it's really, again a matter
of sifting through all of those not perfects and figuring
out which of those is the actual problem or issue
at hand. All right, let's take a quick break to
manipulate our sublixations. You're right back. Welcome back to Prodigy.
(18:20):
I play computer games, and I hit the shift key
with my left pinky. Um, I guess this maybe I
don't know, do you guys? If you guys treat like
digit and like joint stuff and like, okay, So it's
a repetitive motion because you know, I do it all
the time because it's like one, it's my push to
talk button. So I would experience pain in that and
not like all the time. But if I like push
(18:41):
on it or whatever, what would you suggest for something
like that? So that's a good question. So I'll give
you him account of my blanket caveat here, which is
you know, very difficult to and imprudent to, you know,
assassin without a full case history and examination. However, repetitive
stress injuries are common. So as you described clicking a mouse,
(19:01):
regardless of what finger it might be clicking a key,
repetitive stress is challenging on the body. Our body loves balance.
So if it is if you're overdoing it with one
motion and consequently you're not taken care of it when
you're not doing that motion, that tends to be some
of the biggest challenges. So that could be a tendon
(19:22):
apathy and it's sort of an in or a tendonitis
and inflammation of the tendon could be a very likely
cause for an injury like that. Now, in a general sense,
what would be recommended for a repetitive or an overuth
century A lot of times inflammation sort of has crept
up and into it like a golfer's elbow if you
(19:42):
want to if you ever heard of tennis elbow or
golfer's elbow, those are also like tendonitis type injuries where
attendants become inflamed because of repetitive use. Right, so how
do you get over that? Wow? Rest and recovery is key.
So in extreme cases you really got to take time
off of the activity, bombing it out. But most of
the time people can find relief by just taking care
(20:06):
of and reducing the inflammation when they're not doing that motion.
So that might be uh, you know, using ice on
the area, going through some range of motion exercises. And
it also might be just taking breaks when you can,
so instead of going at something for x amount of
hours without taking a break, just trying to whenever you
can every fifteen or twenty minutes, taking a short break
(20:28):
and using some ice. Things like that. What is the
sort of the origin of how chiropractic I guess you
would call it chiropractic care. Okay, Uh, Like, how did
it get started? Yeah, so chiropractics started actually in eighteen five,
so well over I guess, well over twenty years ago
at this point time. Uh. And it started in of
all places, in Iowa by a gentleman named D. D. Palmer. Indeed,
(20:53):
Palmer was actually a magnetic healer at the time who
had a janitor basically in the building where he was
either practicing or working. I'm not sure, um, and this
is this is this story. Get this story is a
little weird. I'm gonna on a caveat this by this
story is a little bit weird. But the janitor was
named Harvey Lillard, and he was having difficulty hearing. And
(21:15):
I'm not sure exactly what led to what happened, but uh,
D D. Palmer thought that he felt a bone out
of place in Harvey Lillard's spine and d D, as
he says, racked it into place, which we now call
spond a manipulation or adjustment. And lo and behold, as
the story goes, Harvey Lillard said, I can hear the
footsteps of the horses on the street, and that was
(21:38):
the first time he had an X amount of years,
so um, you know that was really the origin. Now
things have evolved, have changed, and have been refined over
the last hundred and twenty years to a great degree,
but that's ultimately where it started. And from that point forward,
I guess the biggest tenants of chiropractic and where it started.
(21:58):
Even with that, as you can tell, all was not
necessarily a medication that was given, but it was really
about using the bodies you know, own systems to be
able to heal itself. And I think at the root
of it, while we've evolved quite a bit, the tenants
of hey, our bodies are self healing and self regulating
by nature, and by definition, that's how we maintain homeostasis.
(22:20):
And you know it's only in extreme events that really
do we need aggressive interventions. I still think that's the case,
and we look at medicine even over the last hundred years,
I think the pendulum has swung back to being more conservative, right,
and more of the mind body connection, and we've seen
the popularity of that, and that's really been where chiropractic
and what chiropractic has been rooted in since the beginning
(22:42):
and chiropractors over time became more and more focused in
the spine because that's where the nervous system communicates and
coordinates the rest of the body. Right, we have our
brain up top and our skull, and then our spinal
cord runs back down through our vertebra or our spine,
and then the nerve of branches go out the left
and right side into our all of our selves of
(23:04):
our body. Right in our neck, those nerves go out
and transmit down into our shoulders, arms and hands, in
our mid back, around our chest, and our low back
down into our buttocks, legs, feet, and toes. So really
understanding that many times challenges to the spine can affect
other body systems and regions is one of the areas where,
(23:24):
for instance, when somebody has leg pain and it's caused
by a low back issue, sometimes chiropractic care adjusting and
taking care of the low back can make a huge
difference and the leg pain goes away, even though the
chiropractor might never touch the leg. So a lot of
musculo skeletal challenges can be not all, but many can
be traced back to spinal issues, and chiropractors focus on
how can we address this in a natural and holistic way. Great.
(23:48):
And um, how would you say that, um, chiropractors have
changed up their approach over the last fifty years. Yeah,
over the last fifty years has been sort of uh,
I'd say a pretty big shift in how chiropractors have
adjusted their approach. So it starts with, you know, if
we trace it all the way back, maybe just a
touch before that, to the nineteen twenties and thirties, chiropractors
(24:11):
were being jailed for practicing medicine without a license. Um.
And you know, which was a sort of ironic because
many chirobrodters weren't trying to disperse medicine. They were trying
to you know, trying to provide healthcare to their communities
in a natural way. Um. But by that point, the
American Medical Association had gained a lot of steam and
headway and and sort of lobbying power. So all of
that came to a head probably almost about fifty years ago. Now, um,
(24:34):
where you know, basically I'm gonna oversimplify this, but basically
there was the A M. A version. It's like called
the Wilke case, and it was the A M A
versus the chiropractic profession, and the sort of came out
that the a m A had tried to extinguish the
chiropractic profession amongst others, where they wanted you know, everybody
to become medical doctors or kind of you know, not
not practice at all um and chiropractical chiropractors. I guess
(24:57):
you could essentially say one that case they won the
right to be able to be a licensed independent, uh
you know, physician, right. So you know, with that, I
think also came a lot of changes. So over the
last twenty to thirty years, the biggest areas of opportunity
and biggest changes that I've seen within chiropractic, I would say,
are more in the sports performance realm. So you know,
(25:21):
while if you looked back fifty years, you know, chiropractors
were not really integrated with any medical systems at all.
Today that's not the case at all. I've practiced at
a few different multi disciplinary and orthopedic groups with medical
doctors side by side. There are chiropractors now throughout the
v A system. For instance, the United States taking care
(25:42):
of um, you know, our military personnel. There are chiropractors
on nearly all major sports teams, collegiate, professional, and it's
very very common for chiropractors to be a part of
an overall healthcare team. And fifty years ago that just
wasn't the case. We were really really distinct and really
isolated and an island from a majority of other healthcare providers,
(26:02):
where now I think everybody is more appreciative of the
team approach and also more appreciative of the individual skill
set that everybody can bring to the table. If somebody
has been involved in a huge accident and they need
immediate surgical intervention, hey, that's not a chiropractor's place and role.
It's great to practice in a place where there might
be assertion that can take care of that, But then
(26:23):
the chiropractor in the physical therapist for instance, can help
that patient rehab afterward. So I think really identifying roles
in a team approach is something that's dramatically changed over
the last forty to fifty years. The name of your
podcast is the Evidence Based Chiropractor, So it seems to
me like, and this may be just be like a
(26:43):
negative stereotype that I had, but like you guys seem
to be shifting more towards um scientific evidence research and
then also incorporating some other things into it as well. Yeah,
I would, I would agree with you. I think that
there's a couple of different ways to look at that, right.
There's the there's the practical way in the historical way,
(27:04):
and I think both are true. Meaning, you know, my
great grandfather was actually a chiropractor in the nineteen twenties
and thirties and so up and up until the forties.
So when I look back at that, I'm like, man,
the landscape was so different. There were not a ton
of chiropractic journals that you certainly we're not going to
have a chiropractic study published in a medical journal at
that point in time. So there was just sort of
(27:25):
this isolation that led chiropractic to kind of do its
own thing. But again, I think over the last twenty
to thirty years now, we've seen so much published research
in you know, chiropractic focused journals that are peer reviewed,
that are esteemed, that are published worldwide and referenced on
pub med. We've seen chiropractic based studies published in Spine,
(27:46):
in the Spine Journal, in the British Medical Journal, in
you know, the New England Journal of medicine. In nearly
every esteemed journal, we've seen chiropractic focused papers come out.
So I don't think that that was I think it
was the opportunity that finally presented itself that really sort
(28:07):
of gave chiropractors the chance to showcase who we are
and and what we do. Now, one thing I will
say is that, you know, over time as well, chiropractic
as a whole, and it ties back to your last
question a little bit, but chiropractic as a whole has
continued to you know, evolve. So early on, there were
some of like the metaphysical within chiropractic, right, you know,
(28:29):
there's you know, there's and and some of this that
we found to be true and and some of it
is still up for discussion, and some of it seems
a little bit dated, um, but there was a metaphysical
component to chiropractic early on. Now, Incidentally, if we look
back at surgery and blood less and like, you know,
what was going on in other healthcare professions was not
wildly different in many ways. However, I would say that
(28:52):
while most other medical professions really have I guess in
some ways you'd say let go of the past and
built up on it. There are some chiropractors that still
practice in what I would refer to as a very
traditional sense now, and some of them are doing a
great job helping take care of people, absolutely, but some
of the nomenclature or the descriptions of how they do
(29:13):
things might be a little bit either oversimplified or they
might be a little bit dated. And sometimes when that
nomenclature goes out to another healthcare provider, it can seem like, Wow,
what the heck is that chiropractor doing. So some of
it's like a language transitional kind of thing, but overall,
I would also say that meant much of this is
(29:34):
the opportunity for chiropractors finally to be able to do
to do research, have funded research, and be able to
publish research on a on a nationwide and worldwide level.
Do you do preregistration? Is it like similar to um
like a medical study? Yep, So there's all yeah, I
mean chiropractics journals and studies they could there would be identical.
So there are you know, there are research reviews, there
(29:54):
are randomized control trials, there's double blinded randomized clinical trials.
There's protocol us for a try I mean the same hierarchy,
case studies, you name it. Uh, it's all out there
for sure. Great. And then I want to ask, when
you were talking about the like ones with like the
more traditional ones, is that like the terminology like straight
versus mixer that they maybe that's all outdated term too.
(30:16):
But yeah, that's that's a great question. So that is
it's a little bit of an outdated term at this
point in time. I think about fifteen or twenty years ago.
It's probably the height of when that was used. But
here's what exactly what that means. And in a chiropractic sense,
so a traditional straight chiropractor would mean adjustment only, meaning
you know, straight and narrow. I do one thing. My
job as a chiropractor is to adjust the spot. So
(30:39):
straight chiropractor usually has a exclusive scope. Not that they're
not that their state has limited to them to the scope.
They have the option to do other things, but they've
chosen to do one thing and one thing only. And
that's a just the spine. Now, as I said at
the top of the interview, that's the hallmark of chiropractic care.
That's kind of our chiropractic power tool. But those docs
(31:00):
used to do that and only that. Now, a mixer
in a in a traditional sense, quote unquote, is somebody
who mixes in other modalities. So that might be rehab,
that might be stretching, that might be soft tissue work, ice, heat,
electrical stimulation, ultrasound, all of those things would be what
(31:21):
why somebody would in a chiropractic sense, would be a mixer. Now,
at this point in time, those terms probably aren't used.
I haven't heard them used as often nearly in the
last five years as maybe I did in the first
five years of my practice, So I think that they're
more at this point historical than anything else. But if
you hear anybody use those terms, that's really the definition
(31:44):
a chiropractic. A mixer chiropractor mixes in other things into
their treatment beyond the adjustment itself, whereas a straight chiropractor
is exclusively focused on spinal manipulation or a chiropractic adjustment. Okay, great, Yeah.
My sister is a physical therapist and I guess they
like work their offices right next to a chiropractor and
they recommend patients to each other. And she said, the
(32:06):
way that you can tell if one's good or about
is whether or not they say that they can treat
a cold. Yes, it's that's an interesting point. So incidentally,
my wife's a physical therapist as well, so I always
say that gives me carte blanche to say whatever I
want about physical therapists. But um, physical therapists are great,
I think, uh, And many times I've worked together with
tons of physical therapists practice out one of the orthopedic
(32:29):
groups I worked in, I worked within a physical therapy location.
So I think there's a couple ways to break down
what you said specifically. Number one is is a chiropractic
adjustment going to directly treat and cure the common cold?
That's a stretch, right, And you know, like now I
(32:49):
will say, however, if somebody has a cold and they
are you know, their nutrition stinks, right, you know they're
super stressed out, they're moving very well because their body hurts,
and our bodies are meant to move, and the more
sedentary we are, the more likely we are to get sick. Well, absolutely,
in an indirect sense, a chiropractor, if you they can
(33:12):
help somebody feel better, move better, recommend nutritional supplements to
kind of strengthen you know, their ability to send things
off or get well. I think that's not necessarily a
stretch to say a chiropractor can help somebody. But I
think it would be a stretch to insinuate that there's
a specific adjustment that could you know, reverse a cold
(33:34):
with just one crunch. Right, So there's a little bit
of gray to what you describe. I would agree that
if a chiropractor was out there and there, you know,
unique selling proposition in the field was that they take
care of upper respiratory challenges, that might be a little
bit suspect. But if a chiropractor that is focusing the
neuromuscular skeletal system had a patient with a cold and said, hey,
(33:58):
you know, getting moving, making sure that all the segments
of your spine are moving correctly, and let's have a
conversation about your nutrition. I don't think that's a stretch
or a bad idea whatsoever. You failed the test, kid,
All right, let's take a quick break to do some
evidence space research. You're right back, Welcome back to Prodigy.
(34:20):
My only experience of the chiropractor I did like a
video for one long time ago, and I remember that
she was doing manipulation on a baby and she was
like holding it up by its back feet. Do you
guys do that sort of thing or is that common
or I'm just curious, like what benefit it could have provided.
Pediatric chiropractic is common. It's estimated that somewhere between two
(34:40):
to ten percent of children will see a chiropractor at
some point, you know, during their childhood or adolescents. And additionally,
there are chiropractic certifications and diplomat programs that are specifically
around pediatric care. So I would say that if you
are apparent and you are looking for a car proctor
for your child, asking about you know, certifications or diplomats
(35:03):
is a good idea because there's some absolutely great programs
out there that help chiropractors be super specific with their
pediatric care now in terms of kind of hanging babies
upside down and things like that. Um, I'm not a
pediatric focused chiropractor, so I don't want to misanswer the question,
but you know, I have seen that, you know, you know,
(35:25):
a baby upside down and you're holding one leg and
you're seeing how a baby moves. Now in terms of
exactly how that plays in diagnostically or what they're looking
for as somebody is not a focused on being a
pediatric chiropractor. I cannot, you know, exactly say, but one
thing I would say in terms of can chiropractors provide
benefit to a pediatric population? Absolutely, I think that's you know,
(35:49):
unequivocal in terms of can they add benefit? And some
of that comes down to I would give a couple
of easy examples. Um, as somebody gets older, you know,
an older pediatric patient meaning a teenager. Sports, I mean,
sports is just a huge area of opportunity, you know,
again injury recovery, you know, reducing likelihood of injury, sports
performance huge benefits in areas of opportunity there. If we
(36:10):
bring that back a little bit earlier in childhood, we
see just like crazy and hopefully this is changing now
with like iPads and stuff like that, but like backpacks
that way like eighty pounds in the kid weighs sixty pounds, right,
and it's like these are just challenges waiting to happen, right,
you know, it's like one strap of a backpack. It's
like postural deviations and postural imbalances. The you know, when
(36:31):
you see that early on in life, it greatly increases
the likelihood that it's going to progress later on in life.
So being able to really identify, Okay, what stretches, what exercises?
Can this patient do this, this this kid do this
child do to help kind of like balance out, you
know what I mean? Or and and or like guide
the parents. Hey, here's how you could load this back back.
(36:52):
Here's you know, something you might look at you, something
you might ask is definitely true. And if we even
go earlier than that, I mean, heck, we all learned
to walk by fallen bazillion times, right, So there's you know,
there's like I say, trauma. I don't mean like you
need to have surgery trauma, but I mean there's trauma
as we get up and movement, as we're crawling, as
we're walking, and those sort of things. You know, they
(37:12):
can cause aches and pains and people of all ages.
So you know, those are always I think important things.
And then if I if I go back to the
earliest component to answer your question very very directly, Yeah,
there are patients that come out at patients and his
childhrendn't that come out with like torta callis and things
like that. And while physical therapy can be extremely beneficial,
my wife is actually a pediatric physical therapist to be
(37:33):
super specific. Um, So, things like torta callas and that
can affect a baby's ability to latch on and breastfeed
as a small child, and you know, being able to
ensure that child has good range emotion in the cervical
spine is very important. There's a little bit across over there, right.
I think historically that's been the realm of physical pediatric
physical therapist. I think it do a fantastic job with
(37:54):
those types of things. But there's plenty of fantastic chiropractors
out there that can do very similar things and help
with latching and that that sort of thing. Early on.
Do you have any sort of, um, broad advice for
maybe somebody who's interested in chiropractic care or takeaways that
you want people to have about it or anything like that. Yeah,
(38:14):
if you're thinking about seeing a chiropractor, I would say
the best thing you can do is ask for or
for all and ask a friend. Um. You know, when
we talked, I talked to chiropractors all time and speak
around the world and things like that, and we always say, man,
the best patients we get are those that are referred in, right,
because they come in like ready, they know a little
bit about that practice, they're confident, they're comfortable, and I
think that's always I think it with the same works
(38:36):
the other way. So if you're patient looking for a chiropractor,
I would say the same thing. Ask around, Ask friends,
ask family, ask colleagues or co workers, and find out, hey,
have you had a great experience somewhere? You know, who
have you seen? And that goes a long way, you know,
or for a healthcare professional, for a service oriented healthcare professional,
I think getting a referral from a friend or family
(38:58):
member is absolutely the best way to go. Now if
you want to go one step beyond that, A couple
other ways that I'd recommend learning about chiropractors that are
great in your area would be, you know, you can
look online, so you know, look online, check out their website,
check out their Google reviews, check out their Facebook page,
and see if they're putting out content that resonates with you,
(39:20):
see if their vibe is what you're looking for, right,
So you know, I wouldn't just go on one of
those things alone, just Google reviews, for instance, and then
look nowhere else, or just look at their website. But
take five or ten minutes check out their website, give it,
give it a quick gander. Check out their Google reviews,
and make sure that other people you believe that they
got great care and great service and a great patient experience.
(39:40):
And then check out their Facebook feed and make sure
that they're consistently putting out great content and things that
resonate with you. I think if you checked out those
three things, you'd have a really great idea of kind
of what that chiropractor is about. Because, as we discussed earlier,
different chiropractors kind of practice in different ways, and you
might not be looking for a sports chiropractor, or you
might be looking for a sports car director. You know,
(40:00):
there's a variety of different um you know, focuses of practice.
So checking those things three things out would be a
great way. And the final component would be you could
always ask another healthcare professional. So I just want to
give a little bit of a caution with this because
while I said, and it's true that chiropractors work now
in an integrated way more than ever before, there still
(40:21):
is a significant portion of the medical field that has
not worked intimately with chiropractors. So if you ask a
medical professional and they sort of he and haw over it.
I would caution you against thinking that chiropractic is not
right for you. There's many guidelines out there that showcase
for low back, for neck pain, and for headaches, you know,
(40:41):
non pharmacological care, movement based care. The care that chiropractors
deliver is the recommended first line treatment. However, there still
are a lot of healthcare providers that don't make those
referrals against the guidelines. Sometimes it's not due to malice,
it's just that they just don't No, it's just that
they don't know a chiropractor. It's might that they may
(41:03):
have a bad experience before. So it's quite often, again
not out of malice or spite, but it's out of
ignorance or lack of information. However, if you don't have
a referral from a friend, if you're struggling to get
internet connection or really find somebody that I think asking
your other healthcare providers if they've ever worked with a chiropractor,
and if if so, who is a great way to
(41:24):
find somebody who would be a good fit for you. Yeah,
because I mean you've thoroughly convinced me. But you know,
Wikipedia is not kind to chiropractic. Wikipedia is not kind
to many professions. Yeah, Wikipedia is definitely you know, and
it's funny you mentioned that because there's a you know,
there's this thing I think Wikipedia opens up with a
chiropractic is a pseudo science, like you know, which is
(41:46):
absolutely crazy, because chiropractic has representation at the World Health Organization.
I've worked in hospital settings and you know, I mean, heck,
the the United States military and VA system has hired
chiropractics to provide care. So if it were that, while
all than crazy, I can assure you, Um, and insurance
covers it absolutely insurance insurance has covered it for decades,
(42:07):
you know, decades at this point in time. So um, yeah,
you know, I don't know who the editors are of
the Wikipedia articles, but it's funny you used to mention
it because that's been a bone of contention a lot
of chiropractic groups online, Like man I changed this and
like by the time I had saved practically it was
like re edited back. So um, they're just you know, again,
there is I would say I would agree with you.
(42:28):
The Wikipedia articles are unkind to to say the least,
but hey, there's all types of healthcare professionals and providers
out there. There's fantastic medical doctors and there are ones
that you wouldn't want to send you your worst enemy too.
And to be super clear, these chiropractors are the same way.
There are plenty of awesome chiropractors out there, um, and
there are plenty, there are some chiro rectors that you
(42:51):
would not want to send your worst enemy to. Like
all fields and professions that have tens of thousands of providers,
there's all makes and models, and that's why asking for
referrals and doing your due diligence ultimately it will always
get you the best results. Thanks for listening to Prodigy.
(43:12):
You can find Dr lange Maid online at Jeff Langmaid
dot com or The Evidence Based Chiropractor dot com. If
you're a chiropractor or want to learn more about it,
check out this podcast, The Evidence Based Chiropractor. Prodigy was
creating produced by me loberl Anti. The executive producer is
Tyler Klang. For more podcast in my Heart Radio, visit
the Ihear Radio app or wherever we get your podcasts.
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