August 19, 2021 • 46 mins
Juan Manuel Santos was president of Colombia from 2010 to 2018, during which time he won the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts to negotiate a peace treaty to resolve the multi-decade conflict with the FARC guerrilla group. He also emerged as the outstanding political leader in Latin America, indeed the world, advocating for far-reaching reform of global drug policy while still in office. We discussed his interactions with Presidents Obama and Trump, as well as other Latin American presidents, during a period when momentum for drug policy reform was greater than ever. I asked President Santos about the evolution in his own thinking about drug policy, and the challenges he confronted in advocating for reforms within his own country. We talked about the impact of marijuana legalization in the United States within Latin America, and the steps he took to advance drug policy reform discussions and policies at the Summit of the Americas and the United Nations. And we discussed current drug policy developments in Colombia, the United States and the broader region.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production
of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the
show where we talk about all things drugs. But any
views expressed here do not represent those of I Heeart Media,
Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, Heed, as
(00:23):
an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not
even represent my own and nothing contained in this show
should be used his medical advice or encouragement to use
any type of drug. Today's episode is really quite remarkable. U.
(00:45):
First of all, it's because of who our guest is.
It's not often I'm going to be having former presidents
on this show. And Juan Manuel Santos was the President
of Columbia for eight years. He also won the Nobel
Piece rise back in sixteen for his very courageous work
trying to bring and successfully bringing a long civil war
(01:07):
in Columbia, involving the far to a successful land. And
he's been outspoken on issues the environment and free speech.
So there's so many reasons I've admired President Santos over
all these years. And one thing he did when he
stepped down just shortly after. In twenty eighteen, he joined
a very distinguished group called the Global Commission on Drug Policy,
(01:29):
which is a group of former presidents and other world
leaders who have decided the war on drugs is doing
a lot more harm than good. Half of its members
of its two days of members or sol our former
Presidents Kofe and Nan the former head of the United Nations,
used to be on it till his death. George Schultz
and Paul Voker, the American Statesmen, were on it till
their recent passing. But a remarkable group. So President Santo's welcome.
(01:52):
Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you, Ethan,
and I'm very very glad to be here with you.
We've on each other for some years and I'm very
glad to participate in your program. Thank you. Yes, I
we we had a really very interesting meeting for me
back in twelve when things were really heating up, and
I visited you in your office in Bogata and we
(02:13):
had a frank conversation about the developments then. But I
want to start off by asking you first. You joined
the Global Commission a few years ago. Tell me why
you did that and why you made that one of
your priorities after leaving office. Well, I come from a
country which perhaps is the country that has suffered most
(02:34):
in this world War on drugs, Colombia. For years, for decades,
I have been fighting this war, and we have sacrificed
our best leaders, are best journalists, are best judges at
a terrible cost. And we are still the number one
(02:55):
exporter of cocaine to the world. Marks and my experience
fighting drugs suffered sort of an evolution. I was a
very hardliner. I was Minister of Defense before being president.
We sprayed the coca plantations, We interdicted many, many thousands
(03:19):
of tons of drugs. We went after the money of
the drug traffickers, We went after the consumers, and we
went after the peasants who were growing mariguana and the
coca plants. And we did that with tremendous intensity, with
the help of the US. The US provided funds and
(03:40):
provided airplanes and provided helicopters, and we continued to have
the problem. The same thing has happened to the world.
We declared university the War a Drugs in the United
Nations and President Nixon, and we still have the problem.
(04:01):
So I started to learn that we were doing the
wrong thing. I call it like in a static bicycle.
You pedal, you pedal, you pedal, and you look to
the right, you look to the left, and you're in
the same place. So a war that has been going
on for fifty years that has not been one. It's
a war that has been lost. So you have to
(04:24):
change your strategy. You have to change your mind frame.
And so I started two change my mind frame. And
now I am convinced that the only way to control
the negative consequences of drug trafficking is by regulating and legalizing.
(04:46):
That's the way to take out the money from the
hands of the mafias and use it to fight the
consumption of drugs, but with an approach of a public
health issue. I also used very often in anecdotes that
I read in one of the recent biographies of Western Churchill.
(05:09):
Back in the twenties, during Prohibition, Churchill went through Canada
and landed in California, and he asked for a drink
and they said to him, no, no, Mr Churchill, this
is prohibited here in the United States. And with that
tremendous sense of humor that he had, he said, how
(05:30):
strange this country is these huge profits that come out
of the sale of liquor, you give them to the mafia's.
In my country, we give it to the treasury. That
encapsulates what I think has to be done in the
war on drugs. And in my country, I have seized
(05:51):
the largest amount of coke and marijuana in the history.
I have extradited the largest number of column this to
the US in history, more than fourteen hundred Colombians extradited
to the United States. And I am now convinced that
all this sacrifice, all this effort is in vain because
(06:13):
we still today have the same problem as we had five, ten, twenty,
or thirty years ago. So we have to change. So
with that introduction, now I'm going to put you just
a little bit on the spot. Person. Of course, so um,
you know, the Global Commission, I just think has done
an extraordinary job of opening up the debate and taking
(06:36):
bold positions in favor of legal regulation. And some people
will say, well, you know, all these prestigious presidents, why
don't they just do the right thing when they were
in office. Now they're coming around to it, and of course,
you know, I think it's better that they do it
even after office. Than just continuing to pretend that having
done what they did was right. But the other thing
is that many of the members of the Global Commission
(06:58):
say what you just said, which is well, I was
believed in the war on drugs when I was president,
and then I came to see it didn't work. But
I'll tell you something funny. So one of your predecessors,
Caesar Gavaria, right, former Colombian president on the Commission, and
I remember back in nineteen ninety when he was the
(07:19):
president elect, and there's a meeting organized for him in
Miami with a bunch of drug policy experts, and I'm
part of that and I push it on the issue
of drug legalization regulation. And first he dismisses me, blows
me off, etcetera. And finally he looks at me and
he goes eaton. Of course, I agree that legalization is
(07:40):
is in my country's interests. But the day I say
the word, the next day the US invades me by wish.
I think he meant they would cut off coffee exports,
but I mean there was a sense in which he
knew better, and just to finish this off, you know,
in there was a big United Nations General Assembly special
Session on drugs, and it was a crazy event. They
(08:01):
were talking about a drug free world, We can do it,
all this crazy rhetoric, and so I drafted a public
letter to Kofi Anan who was in the Secretary General,
and it basically called for a major reform, major rethinking.
Didn't call for the legalization, but big rethinking. And we
got a half a dozen people from Columbia to sign
that letter, and one of them was the former President
(08:22):
edincour Another one was his foreign minister, Augusta Ramirez Ocampo,
and another one was a part time politician who was
then running a good Governance foundation named Juan Manuel Santos.
So I don't know if you remember this, President Santos,
but you signed that letter back in ninety eight saying
the drug war is failing and it cannot work. So
(08:45):
I am proud to say I don't want to sound presumptuous,
but I was the only head of state that, as
head of state back in the year two thousand and twelve,
started to talk about league and station started to talk
about changing the war on drugs. And I found a
good partner. I found President Obama that said to me,
(09:10):
you know you are right, And so I said, why
don't we start, because this is an issue that one
country by itself cannot solve. This has to be an
international issue. Why don't we start trying to assemble a
special General Assembly in the United Nations that would address
(09:30):
this problem. But before that, we started to work at
a regional level. This started in the America Summit that
was held in Cartagena in the year two thousand and twelve,
and I announced it publicly that we were going to
start a crusade to change the war on drugs. In
a General Assembly of the o S, by unanimous vote,
(09:54):
they supported the call for a special General Assembly of
the United Nations to address this issue. What happened, I
underestimated the reaction that we were going to find from
other areas of the world, the Chinese, the Russians, the
Middle Eastern countries, they were all very much opposed. So
(10:18):
unfortunately this General Assembly, in a way, it was a failure.
We managed to make a little progress of introducing the
public health as an issue of human rights is an issue,
But what I wanted was the United Nations to change
the paradigm, and we failed. And why I have a
theory and my own experience when President Garria told you
(10:42):
they would crucify me in my country. He was right,
not only because at that time the US was with
the policy of hardline punitive treatment to the world drugs,
but also because this is a very sensitive political issue
and very easy to manipulate. What happened when I started
(11:04):
talking about legalization in Colombia, my political adversaries, among them
the former president to really started to tell all the
housewives that I was proposing to poison their kids with drugs.
But that's what's going to be the consequences of my proposal.
(11:25):
I used to go to different assemblies and the women
were furious, why do why do you want to poison
my kids? And I said what do you mean? And
said why do you want to legalize drugs? And it
was very interesting because I said, okay, let's let's talk
about it. And I I asked many of them, listen
to me. You are a mother, and if your kid
(11:48):
it's caught with drugs, would you prefer your son or
daughter to go to jail or to go to an
institution to rehabilitate her or him if they are addicts?
Said the second rehabilitation, and I said, that's precisely what
(12:09):
I'm proposing, and they said, ah, why don't you explain
that a bit more? Now I understand. But the immediate
reaction for many people, the assuming a hardline position is
very popular. Let's kill the dog traffickers, let's hang them,
let's crucify, and everybody applaudse. The other issue, it's much
(12:31):
more difficult because it's another type of leadership. It's the
same issent as making war and making peace. Making war,
what type of leadership do you need? You need a
leadership that is vertical. You give orders, you rally the
forces around you, You satinize and accuse your adversary, and
(12:55):
so you're a good leader. Making war. Making peace needs
a really different types of leadership, more horizontal. Instead of
giving orders, you have to persuade, you have to educate.
And for example in the peace process, that I had
persuaded a mother to forgive the people who raped and
(13:21):
killed their daughter. Is very difficult, but it's the type
of leadership that you need to change the paradigm in
the world drugs and you have to persevere. And we're
making progress. We're making progress. You see in the United States,
which had the most hard life position, many of the
states in the United States have the matter one I legalized,
(13:43):
and you go to Europe and they're more and more
convinced that this is the way to go, and we
need to persevere and hopefully accelerate the work we're doing,
for example, in the World Commission on Drugs. Yeah, I mean,
I'll tell you, President, I was really following what you
were doing and saying back then very closely, and I
(14:04):
was extraordinarily impressed because I knew already back then that
you were thinking along these lines and we're looking for opportunities.
And I remember a few months before I saw you
in your office, I went to see President Calderon in
Mexico in his office, and you know, here he is
leading this bigjor war on drugs, crematical violence, taking on
(14:25):
the narcos. But I also know that he had been
saying some things like maybe we need to look at
alternatives to the prohibitionist approach. And then that summit that
you described and cart ahead of the Americans. How you
handled that so beautifully, giving Auto Perez, the Guatemalan former
general president, a chance to present, then giving President Obama
(14:47):
a chance to respond, and thereby show there was some
opening of space so I thought you were really being
masterful in moving this forward in the midst of everything
else that was going on. Because it's such a sensitive issue,
and people who are in power, the first thing they
want to do is rock the boat. If there's a
danger that the boat right capsites, and these type of issues,
(15:11):
it's better to not address them, especially when when you
are also dependent on other countries. Is one of the
circumstances that we have to live with is that since
this is a multinational problem, it's a traffic that is
multinational world. You need a multinational solution. And that is
(15:33):
why people in power sort of are reluctant to start
the process of changing. But fortunately we have more and
more people that have realized this is the way to go.
It's almost because, in a way, the situation of Columbia
or Mexico or Guatemala or so many other countries is
being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Right
(15:55):
on the one hand, a global illegal commodities market in
which you are in the middle and there's no way
to really prohibit it effectively, and another hand, these massive
political pressures both domestically and internationally. And I remember like
one of the options was almost like imagining for Guatemala
in this case, if we could only build a pipeline,
(16:15):
right so that all the cocaine coming out of Columbia
going through Central America could essentially go through a Guatemalan
pipeline pop out the other end without all the corruption
and all the black market, and maybe they could just
tax it. But of course that was just a hypothetical
and something that was a political and possibility. We'll be
(16:36):
talking more after we hear this ad. When I look
at Columbia, I mean Columbia really. I guess if you
look at all the countries in the world that have
been highly associated with drug trafficking and drug murders and
(16:56):
drug crime and drug politics, why is drugs in Columbia
is so fundamentally caught up with modern Columbia history over
the last fifty years. Why do you think, Well, I
think it's a combination of how we have a great
entrepreneurs We have an ideal country from the geography point
of view for marijuana and coca We became because of
(17:19):
our special circumstances producers of marijuana and of cocaine, and
the geography helped very much to expand the production and
we had this war with the farc with the gorillas,
and the gorillas controlled huge amounts of territory and they
(17:40):
benefit from the drug trafficking. They said that they were
not drop traffickers, but they taxed the drug traffickers and
they financed their war with the proceeds of drug trafficking.
So it's a combination of different circumstances. And they say
that the way that we started exporting the first exports
of drugs and Colombia was marijuana from a region called
(18:03):
the Sierra Nevada Santa Marta, which is a beautiful region,
and that a Swedish ship arrived in the border Santa
Marta full of American sailors that had been in Vietnam
and that they they have heard of this Santa Marta gold,
which was the best money one and the girl in
the world. And they asked somebody there, do you have
(18:25):
money Juanna Santa Marca. Of course, what do you need?
It said, can you bring me a pack? And they
brought it back and he was going to pay ten
dollars and they said, don't know, it's tempestos. He said,
is that cheap? So they bought all the production put
in the Swedish ship, and the legend says, this is
the first big export of money iguana, and that part
(18:48):
of the Columbia, that's the part where previously during the
Spanish and the British, the pirates used to be very
much present. So there was a culture of contraband there,
and so the marijuana traffic became more and more important.
And suddenly from another part of Colombia called Medagan, where
(19:08):
our industry grew. Because they are very effective entrepreneurs, they
started to discover that there was also a market in
the US, in Los Angeles, in New York for cocaine.
The coca plantations were in Bolivia and in Peru, and
they came through Colombia. They had some laboratories and were exported.
(19:31):
But they found out that a kilo of cocaine was
much more profitable than the king a kilo of marijuana.
But the logistics of taking a kilo of coca and
a kido iguana to the United States market with the same.
So they started switching or adding of the roots that
they had in the marijuana exports the cocaine, and that
(19:53):
grew and grew and grew, and what the what the
bodon was saying to you, the Central American countries became
sort of places to export to those countries and then
re export and that was a great business. And that
also contamidated the mafia's there, the criminal bands there, the
(20:14):
corruption there, and the problem they have right now all
of Central America is huge. Well, there was also you
left out one drug. I mean, there was a period,
I think right before you became president in two thousand
and ten all of the world right was getting their
heroin from Afghanistan, but the United States most of it
was coming from Columbia for about a decade until Mexico
(20:37):
displaced it. And I was curious. I never quite understood that.
Was it just that the Mexican traffickers were decided they'd
rather just grow it themselves and ship it and cut
out the Colombians Or was there actually a successful suppression effort.
Was it a simple market dynamics and lower costs of
production in Mexico. I remember, I remember that the early
(20:58):
part of my government, the police took me to a
place in the south of Colombia to eradicate supposedly the
last hector of Amapola in Colombia. I did that, and
I showed the flower and I said, this is the
last actor. Well it wasn't the last, and as long
as you have the demand, you will have supply. But yes,
(21:20):
this very effective suppression. Because the productional Polo was very
much concentrated, and because the gorillas did not control that region,
we were able to be more effective. But immediately, immediately
the balloon effect, they went to Mexico, and Mexico was
much closer to the US, so they became much more
(21:42):
efficient in providing heroin than Columbia. Well, now there's something
else interesting and actually very complimentary about Colombia, which is
obviously Peru has gone through terrible problems. Right, they had
a shining past Centro Luminoso gorilla group, not unlike the
FARC or others that was a real threat. Mexico has
(22:02):
had major problems over the years. Bolivia was almost a
coca you know, empire at some respects. But one of
the things that I noticed in Colombia was the extent
to which not just intellectuals but even politicians would at
one moment or another step out and say we need
something different. Why in your country and not in these
(22:24):
others does this happen? That's a good question. That's a
good question. Well, I think that our our democracy is
a bit stronger than the democracy and other countries, and
the cost of being controversial might be not as as
high politically, and because I think we've suffered more from
(22:46):
the drug war than the other countries. The other countries,
they were very very much concentrated. You didn't see in
Lima the effects of the expectation of coca from to
Columbia or to the United States. In Colombia, you start
to see the effects of the drug trafficking also in
(23:08):
the cities Mainta and the violence that generated the big,
very strong, invincible drug cartels. Remember the Mayan cartel, the
Counti cartel. They were taking over the country. We reacted
against that at a very high cost because we were
feeling how they were just destroying the country, destroying our democracy.
(23:31):
That did not happen in Peru or in other countries
because it was a much more low profile mafias that
did not want to take over the country but want
to simply run their business. So, President, let me ask
you if I can about some of your relationships with
other Latin American leaders on this drug issue. I mean,
(23:53):
with the exception of the hard left. You know Castro
in Cuba, Uh, you know Nicaragua, Uh, Venezuela, which are
totally opposed to any drug reform. As far as I
could see, you would have support across the spectrum. And
so here you have um we mentioned before Otto Perez Melita,
a right wing former general. But what about did you
(24:14):
ever discuss this issue with Mohika, the former left wing
guerrilla and who became president of Uruguay, who was just
focused on marijuana, or with Able Morales who was the
left wing leader, former Coca union leader who you know,
we go to the United Nations meetings in shoot Coca,
but never seemed to get all that involved. What were
your conversations with guys like that about during the American summit.
(24:37):
My approach to diplomacy was very different from the approach
that Peterson had. Remember that we had a very hard
confrontation with Venezuela and with Ecuador. And when I came
became president, I was thinking about the peace process. So
I said, listen, in diplomacy, you need to talk, and
so I started talking to challenge through the Ecuadoria in
(25:00):
a president to everybody, Lula and the Moxica and ever Morales,
and those were the ones that supported in the oas
the resolution calling for a change in the drug war. Today,
unfortunately you will not find that support because, for example,
(25:21):
in Brazil you have now a very hardliner also NATO
in the presidency and he prefers this approach of punitive,
hardline war against rugs because that sounds politically correct, and
so he's not going to risk the possibility of sacrifice
(25:44):
in popularity changing his views. And so we have seen
a shift to the rights in that America against the
progressive stance we sa is the drug traffic. That's what
I feel. But yes, I did speak to them. Choice
at that time was very much in favor, very much
(26:06):
in favor. Yes, I think what has happened in Venezuela
is that the drug traffic has become become a part
of their economy. But at that time that did not happen.
So when Chows did support that, and he thought that
that was the the correct way, also because he saw
(26:27):
it as an anti imperialist stand, the same as Morales.
Now this is this is this war on drugs is
an imposition of the US of the empire, and so
for different political reasons. But I remember having long talks
about this issue, because when you are convinced about something
(26:47):
that has the consequences that we've seen in the last
decades and we're still having the consequences today, you sort
of become passionate about about the issue. And that's what
has happened to be among many issues with this issue. Well,
you know, it's funny when you tell me the story
about your conversation with Chaves. I remember hearing that when
the Guatemalan president Otto Paris was talking to the other
(27:10):
Central American presidents and there was some interest in Honduras
and El Salvador et cetera in Costa Rica, and then
he talked to Artega in um Nicaragua, and I heard
what Ortega's response to Otto Paris was, Look, if you're
doing this to get money from the gringoes, I totally
supported if you're serious, forget about it, right. So it
(27:32):
was just a kind of cynical kind of response. What
about with Calderon, the Mexican president, who's a good friend
of mine and we became very good friends, and we
still our friends. He was elected president with the banner
of hardline position against the drug cartels. That was one
of the issues that got him elected, so this could
(27:52):
be interpreted as a shift. But he went along even
though he was reluctant. He supported the resolution, but he
was not very much convinced that that was the Routetoo.
I remember my conversation with it. Seemed like he got
the basic logic of why prohibition was doomed to failure,
but he was so preoccupied with fighting the narcos and
(28:13):
the frustrations of that that he felt there was nothing
in between at all. Um. I think, in fact, he
in one of the last speeches he ever gave his
president when he went up to the u n at
the end of two thousand twelve, he may have been
one of the first, if not the first president to
use the phrase drug prohibition to refer to that, which
was an interesting step out. And what about his successor?
(28:35):
Pinionetoto was quite open was it was quite the collaborative
in this stand. However, however, people who surround him, people
from the army, from the Navy, they had another stand.
It was very difficult, for example, even to get a
(28:55):
an agreement that we would working but nature myself for
the two navies two collaborate interdicting drugs in the c UH.
The Mexican Navy was not very, very enthusiastic about it,
and I always thought, why what is the question? Sometimes
(29:19):
life converted you into a Voltaian. Voltaire used to say,
think bad about something and you might be right, And
so I was always puzzled with the people around on
this particular issue. Yeah, you know, it's interesting you frame
it that way, because I remember for many years the
spring of the coca crops with click phost fate, the
(29:42):
herb side eradicating agent was a very controversial issue. And
I talked a few days ago with a friend of mine,
Aljandro Gaviria, your former Minister of Health, and he told
me about meeting with you to discuss this issue about
ending just ending the aerial eradication, even though there was
huge US pressure to keep it going, and you simply said, yes,
(30:02):
let's do it. Why had you, I mean, there was
gonna be political fallout from my government. Why were you
so ready to do that then? Because what I told
you at the beginning, my experience convinced me that that
didn't work, and that the consequences of spraying were terrible
in terms of the environment, in terms of public health,
(30:25):
and we even had a big route with equal equal
took us to the International Court of Justice, sued Colombia
and we were going to we were going to lose
that legal battle. But the the the main reason is
that it did not work. You sprayed, and immediately those
(30:47):
campesinos went and replanted, or they even invented ways to
protect themselves refrained. There's something called panella, which is which
is extracted from show ground, and they put panella on
the leaves and the spray did nothing to them. So
it did work and had terrible consequences. And when at
(31:10):
another guardian, I said, really it's not working. Oh what
would the United States? What would they say? And I said, well,
I don't care what they say. I think it's the
correct thing to do. Are you convinced the minister and
he said yes, well I'm convinced also, let's finish it.
Of course, it's a big reaction. They still today they
(31:32):
say that Colombia is producing coca and has increased the
production coca because of that decision. That is absolutely nonsense.
It's not because of that decision. And so yes, I
took the decision convinced that I was doing the correct thing,
and that was about eight years ago. I am still
convinced that that is correct, the correct decision and the
(31:53):
worst mistake. Enough said this publicly that President Dookie can
do right now, and he's thinking of re establishing the
spray because you will have all these peasants who if
they don't have an alternative, they will die to continue
to give food to their children. And that's why in
(32:16):
the peace agreement we included substituting coca for legal crops.
And let me give you a comparison. If you eradicate
by force or you spray, the rate of replanting goes
up to so after eradicating, they go and replant. We started,
(32:38):
after the peace process was signed, a very aggressive and
ambitious program of voluntary substitution. We paid the families and
we gave them instruments to plant something else that was legal.
And the United Nations verified how much replanting occurred with
that policy and they be planted was less than one percent.
(33:03):
So you see the difference up to sev seven oh
and less than one percent. That's the way to do it. Well,
let me challenge you on this, e bit, okay, because
I have huge amount admiration for what you did. With
the FARC agreement, obviously, and it had contained obviously an
entire chapter about drugs, and obviously investing in the livelihoods
of the camposinos was crucial. But when it comes to
(33:25):
the big global picture, it's not going to affect the
drug problem or the global cocaine markets, right, because even
if you get a hundred thousand Campesinos switching out of coca,
they'll just be replaced by people elsewhere in Colombia, Bolivia, Peru,
maybe Ecuador. So for Colombia it may have been crucial,
but globally it's a wash. I agree with you. That's
(33:46):
because of the balloon effect. Yes, if you continue to
have a demand for marijuana, of cocaine, of heroin in
the consuming countries, you will have to supply. This is
the contrary of what the econs name the says law.
This is Frenchshire economists that the production creates its own demand. Well,
(34:11):
in this case, the demand creates its own production. So
and it's so profitable that, yes, if we were able
to eradicate all the production of cocaine in Colombia, you
will immediately see and you're seeing it in other parts
of the world, in Asia and Indonesia. And that has
been the history of this issue since the Open Wars.
(34:33):
That has been the reality. The problem is that sometimes
because of political reasons, global leaders and global politicians don't
like to accept that. Let's take a break here and
go to an ad. One of the things that I
(34:58):
take pride in from my work in the US is
that we really initiated the whole. I mean, the question becomes,
how could it be that the United States, which championed
the drug war domestically and globally for almost a hundred years,
nonetheless became the global leader in marijuana legalization. And a
lot of it started with a very strategic approach with
legalizing medical marijuana in California in and then continuing to
(35:22):
other states and beginning to change the dialogue, and you know,
and then ultimately resulting in first Colorado and Washington in
twelve and other states. And I look in Latin America
now and I see that that's one of the few
drug reform issues which seems to be moving forward all
around the continent. And I think you played a key
role in making Columbia one of the leaders in this. Yes,
(35:43):
And for example, nobody would have imagined that that would
happen in Mexico and did in Colombia. Unfortunately, the current
government very conservative and very hardliner, and they started to
go back. They started to criminally eyes again the consumption
of drugs. And there's one exact date that I use
(36:08):
a lot as an example to tell the Columbians to
open their eyes. The three of November, when President Biden
was elected, eight states in the United States legalized bod iguana.
That same day, the Colombian House of Representatives, because of
the pressure of the government, rejected a law to do
(36:32):
the same thing. And so what is the consequence of this?
The money stays in the US, That's where I tell
my fellow collumbience, and the violence stays here in Colombia.
You're exporting your You're being stupid by not legalizing it.
We are much more efficient producers of bard iguana. And
then the Californians or in Colorado or Oregon. And when
(36:56):
you prohibited here, you will continue with a violent and
the mafia's and the United States is legalizing it. But
another issue here is how do you explain it. Campasino
who grows body want but he's doing something illegal and
he has to go to jail. If you have the
(37:17):
United States legalizing it, they tell you, is that not stupid?
It is with the reality. I remember after we legalize
marijuana and Colorado Washington, reading the papers, President Santo's condemns
the US for their their hypocrisy. Here you are legalizing
your own country and still expecting us to keep eradicating
(37:39):
the plants in our own And I think, I mean,
I guess in a way what happened in Colorado and Washington,
and then I guess Mohican Uruguay really did help open
up space to move this issue forward. And even your successor,
d K is being respectful on the medical marijuana piece, right, yes,
because and no, and and the pressure has been a
big pressure because a lot of companies started to invest
(38:02):
in Colombia and they said, you can't just go go back.
So with the medical marijuana, he has been much more positive.
But for recreational purposes he's still very very reluctant. But
so now I have because they asked me, I have
a much more radical stand. I think we have to
(38:22):
legalize the coca production or not. I know that we're
years from that, but also we need to regulate and
legalize all the drugs because otherwise if you if you prohibit,
the word prohibition is the keyword. If you prohibit, you
you create all kinds of terrible collateral damages. So as
(38:46):
we're speaking, it's the middle of May, uh and we
don't know what will happen by the time people here
this in this summer. But there is a cocaine, a
very thoughtful cocaine legalization bill in the Congress of Columbia.
Now right, it's that, would you know, allow the coca
products to be sold openly and make cocaine powder cocaine
strictly regulated and not allow crack cocaine to be sold
(39:08):
to decriminalized. So are you able and are you willing
to be speaking out in favor of this bill? Are
you hesitant to have already spoken in favor of this bill?
But unfortunately I don't see that this bill will pass. No,
it's the beginning, though, it's the beginning. Yes, I think
we have to try again explain much more. The world
(39:28):
is to teach the Colombians why this is good, because
the image they have, they said, this is terrible. This
president is poisoning kids. Well, you need to do on
a big effort to explain that it's the contrary that
we are. We're we're doing something to to benefit many
(39:49):
of the kids that today, for example, are in the
criminal band because of group trafficy or adds. This is
precisely to address this issue with much more humane and
effect to approach. So a question I asked virtually all
my guests, and I'm gonna ask you. Let me frame
it in this way. When President Obama wrote his first autobiography,
(40:11):
he talked about having been a young man smoking marijuana,
trying a little cocaine. So, if you were writing your
autobiography and being open about what your own past experience was,
what is your own past experience with these substancestive and
illegal the same as Obama's. I smoked my first joint
of marijuana in Kansas, the University of Kansas, and the
(40:34):
first time I tried coke was here in Columbia. Uh.
But so my answer is I follow Obama, I think, okay?
And another question, Columbia really in somers And I don't
know if you've ever heard of a professor named Richard
Schulte's He was the famous Harvard the godfather of ethnobodany,
(40:55):
and he was he was a mentor of Wade Davis.
That's right, that's right. He was a great right on
these issues. And what I've heard is that Colombia probably
contains more natural psychoactive natural substances and plants. And part
of this is part of the indigenous culture in Colombia.
And now we're seeing this blossoming of psychedelics research and
also in the desire to include, you know, the native
(41:17):
populations in this. I'm curious, how are where are you
of this, of this tradition in Colombia and what it
implications might be. Well again, later in life, I have
been learning about the the wisdom of the indigenous communities.
I had an experience with them when I was Minister
(41:38):
of Defense. There was this friend of mine who was
after my Minister of the Environment, who took me to
talk to the indigenous communities in the high mountains of
the Sierra. But he said, as Minister, you can because
of the war, their leaders had not been able to
(41:59):
come together for for a long time. You can help
them come together simply by picking them up and bring
them into this place, this beautiful place high the mountain.
So I did that, and I went there with my family,
my wife and my few kids, and these governors they
are called or the mammos, arrived and they said to me,
(42:21):
we have to speak among ourselves before and then we'll
speak to you. Well, I thought it was one hour
or two hours. They spent thirty hours talking and chewing
coca they called Mambia chewing cocca for thirty hours, and
then they called me in and they start to explain
(42:42):
to me other culture, all their their philosophies. There, their
vision about justice, especially their vision about the environment, and
how they are our older brothers. So I was very
much impressed with am and I started to to hear
them more. And when I got inagurgated as president. The
(43:04):
day I was innagurgated, I went to them and asked
for their permission, because they are our older brothers. As
a gesture to recognize them as the indigenous communities that
were here before anybody, I asked for their blessing to
go to Congress and be intagorated, and they said yes,
(43:24):
and they gave me a mad date. They said, you
must make peace but not only among people, among human beings.
You must make peace with nature because we have a
disconnection with nature, and you, unfortunately going to suffer because
she is mad, and when she's mad, we all suffer
the consequences. And one week later, even one week later
(43:47):
after I got in degradated Colombia was hit by the
worst Ninia phenomenon in the history of Columbia, that the
worst natural disaster. The first year I was in office,
the first year and a half, was administered a fludded country.
So I became engaged with them. They started to teach
me about the environment, about how rich our environment in
(44:09):
Columbias and how we had to protect it. And that's
why we put in place very aggressive environmental policies to
protect our biodiversity, to protect our rivers, to protect these
ecosystems that are only in Colombia. And I am now
convinced that we have to hear these Indi discribunities all
around the world in Columbia because they have more wisdom.
(44:31):
If we hadn't heard them before, we were not facing
this existential threat, which is climate change. And they have
been saying this for a long long time. Well, Wammanuel Santos,
that's a beautiful way to conclude our conversation on the
wisdom of the indigenous people. So thank you ever so
much for taking this time to have this conversation, and
(44:52):
I look forward to our past crossing before long. Syco
Act is the production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures.
It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by Katcha
Kumkova and Ben Cabrick. The executive producers are Dylan Golden,
Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronovski for Protozoa Pictures,
(45:15):
Alice Williams and Matt Frederick for I Heart Radio and
me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is by Ari Belusian and
a special thanks to Avivit Brio, Sef Bianca Grimshaw and
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comments or ideas, please leave us a message at eight
three three seven seven nine sixty. That's one eight three
(45:39):
three Psycho zero. You can also email us as Psychoactive
at protozoa dot com or find me on Twitter at
Ethan Nadelman. And if you couldn't keep track of all this,
find the information in the show notes. Next time I'm Psychoactive,
I'll be talk talking with Dr Nora Vocal, who has
(46:02):
headed the National Student on drug abuse since two thousand
and three. That's the lead research funding agency in the
world about drugs. I have to say I was a
bit surprised she accepted my invitation to join us, so
this should be a particularly good episode. There's one issue
I think, going back a number of years ago, where
if I pat myself on the back, I think I
was more right than you were, which is people were saying,
(46:24):
if you're gonna legalize marijuana, you're gonna see this explosion
in adolescent used of marijuana and problematic use. You were right.
I was expecting the use of my one among adolescence
would go up, and overall it hasn't subscribed to Cycleactive
now see it, don't miss it.
Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production
of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the
show where we talk about all things drugs. But any
views expressed here do not represent those of I Heeart Media,
Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, Heed, as
(00:23):
an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not
even represent my own and nothing contained in this show
should be used his medical advice or encouragement to use
any type of drug. Today's episode is really quite remarkable. U.
(00:45):
First of all, it's because of who our guest is.
It's not often I'm going to be having former presidents
on this show. And Juan Manuel Santos was the President
of Columbia for eight years. He also won the Nobel
Piece rise back in sixteen for his very courageous work
trying to bring and successfully bringing a long civil war
(01:07):
in Columbia, involving the far to a successful land. And
he's been outspoken on issues the environment and free speech.
So there's so many reasons I've admired President Santos over
all these years. And one thing he did when he
stepped down just shortly after. In twenty eighteen, he joined
a very distinguished group called the Global Commission on Drug Policy,
(01:29):
which is a group of former presidents and other world
leaders who have decided the war on drugs is doing
a lot more harm than good. Half of its members
of its two days of members or sol our former
Presidents Kofe and Nan the former head of the United Nations,
used to be on it till his death. George Schultz
and Paul Voker, the American Statesmen, were on it till
their recent passing. But a remarkable group. So President Santo's welcome.
(01:52):
Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you, Ethan,
and I'm very very glad to be here with you.
We've on each other for some years and I'm very
glad to participate in your program. Thank you. Yes, I
we we had a really very interesting meeting for me
back in twelve when things were really heating up, and
I visited you in your office in Bogata and we
(02:13):
had a frank conversation about the developments then. But I
want to start off by asking you first. You joined
the Global Commission a few years ago. Tell me why
you did that and why you made that one of
your priorities after leaving office. Well, I come from a
country which perhaps is the country that has suffered most
(02:34):
in this world War on drugs, Colombia. For years, for decades,
I have been fighting this war, and we have sacrificed
our best leaders, are best journalists, are best judges at
a terrible cost. And we are still the number one
(02:55):
exporter of cocaine to the world. Marks and my experience
fighting drugs suffered sort of an evolution. I was a
very hardliner. I was Minister of Defense before being president.
We sprayed the coca plantations, We interdicted many, many thousands
(03:19):
of tons of drugs. We went after the money of
the drug traffickers, We went after the consumers, and we
went after the peasants who were growing mariguana and the
coca plants. And we did that with tremendous intensity, with
the help of the US. The US provided funds and
(03:40):
provided airplanes and provided helicopters, and we continued to have
the problem. The same thing has happened to the world.
We declared university the War a Drugs in the United
Nations and President Nixon, and we still have the problem.
(04:01):
So I started to learn that we were doing the
wrong thing. I call it like in a static bicycle.
You pedal, you pedal, you pedal, and you look to
the right, you look to the left, and you're in
the same place. So a war that has been going
on for fifty years that has not been one. It's
a war that has been lost. So you have to
(04:24):
change your strategy. You have to change your mind frame.
And so I started two change my mind frame. And
now I am convinced that the only way to control
the negative consequences of drug trafficking is by regulating and legalizing.
(04:46):
That's the way to take out the money from the
hands of the mafias and use it to fight the
consumption of drugs, but with an approach of a public
health issue. I also used very often in anecdotes that
I read in one of the recent biographies of Western Churchill.
(05:09):
Back in the twenties, during Prohibition, Churchill went through Canada
and landed in California, and he asked for a drink
and they said to him, no, no, Mr Churchill, this
is prohibited here in the United States. And with that
tremendous sense of humor that he had, he said, how
(05:30):
strange this country is these huge profits that come out
of the sale of liquor, you give them to the mafia's.
In my country, we give it to the treasury. That
encapsulates what I think has to be done in the
war on drugs. And in my country, I have seized
(05:51):
the largest amount of coke and marijuana in the history.
I have extradited the largest number of column this to
the US in history, more than fourteen hundred Colombians extradited
to the United States. And I am now convinced that
all this sacrifice, all this effort is in vain because
(06:13):
we still today have the same problem as we had five, ten, twenty,
or thirty years ago. So we have to change. So
with that introduction, now I'm going to put you just
a little bit on the spot. Person. Of course, so um,
you know, the Global Commission, I just think has done
an extraordinary job of opening up the debate and taking
(06:36):
bold positions in favor of legal regulation. And some people
will say, well, you know, all these prestigious presidents, why
don't they just do the right thing when they were
in office. Now they're coming around to it, and of course,
you know, I think it's better that they do it
even after office. Than just continuing to pretend that having
done what they did was right. But the other thing
is that many of the members of the Global Commission
(06:58):
say what you just said, which is well, I was
believed in the war on drugs when I was president,
and then I came to see it didn't work. But
I'll tell you something funny. So one of your predecessors,
Caesar Gavaria, right, former Colombian president on the Commission, and
I remember back in nineteen ninety when he was the
(07:19):
president elect, and there's a meeting organized for him in
Miami with a bunch of drug policy experts, and I'm
part of that and I push it on the issue
of drug legalization regulation. And first he dismisses me, blows
me off, etcetera. And finally he looks at me and
he goes eaton. Of course, I agree that legalization is
(07:40):
is in my country's interests. But the day I say
the word, the next day the US invades me by wish.
I think he meant they would cut off coffee exports,
but I mean there was a sense in which he
knew better, and just to finish this off, you know,
in there was a big United Nations General Assembly special
Session on drugs, and it was a crazy event. They
(08:01):
were talking about a drug free world, We can do it,
all this crazy rhetoric, and so I drafted a public
letter to Kofi Anan who was in the Secretary General,
and it basically called for a major reform, major rethinking.
Didn't call for the legalization, but big rethinking. And we
got a half a dozen people from Columbia to sign
that letter, and one of them was the former President
(08:22):
edincour Another one was his foreign minister, Augusta Ramirez Ocampo,
and another one was a part time politician who was
then running a good Governance foundation named Juan Manuel Santos.
So I don't know if you remember this, President Santos,
but you signed that letter back in ninety eight saying
the drug war is failing and it cannot work. So
(08:45):
I am proud to say I don't want to sound presumptuous,
but I was the only head of state that, as
head of state back in the year two thousand and twelve,
started to talk about league and station started to talk
about changing the war on drugs. And I found a
good partner. I found President Obama that said to me,
(09:10):
you know you are right, And so I said, why
don't we start, because this is an issue that one
country by itself cannot solve. This has to be an
international issue. Why don't we start trying to assemble a
special General Assembly in the United Nations that would address
(09:30):
this problem. But before that, we started to work at
a regional level. This started in the America Summit that
was held in Cartagena in the year two thousand and twelve,
and I announced it publicly that we were going to
start a crusade to change the war on drugs. In
a General Assembly of the o S, by unanimous vote,
(09:54):
they supported the call for a special General Assembly of
the United Nations to address this issue. What happened, I
underestimated the reaction that we were going to find from
other areas of the world, the Chinese, the Russians, the
Middle Eastern countries, they were all very much opposed. So
(10:18):
unfortunately this General Assembly, in a way, it was a failure.
We managed to make a little progress of introducing the
public health as an issue of human rights is an issue,
But what I wanted was the United Nations to change
the paradigm, and we failed. And why I have a
theory and my own experience when President Garria told you
(10:42):
they would crucify me in my country. He was right,
not only because at that time the US was with
the policy of hardline punitive treatment to the world drugs,
but also because this is a very sensitive political issue
and very easy to manipulate. What happened when I started
(11:04):
talking about legalization in Colombia, my political adversaries, among them
the former president to really started to tell all the
housewives that I was proposing to poison their kids with drugs.
But that's what's going to be the consequences of my proposal.
(11:25):
I used to go to different assemblies and the women
were furious, why do why do you want to poison
my kids? And I said what do you mean? And
said why do you want to legalize drugs? And it
was very interesting because I said, okay, let's let's talk
about it. And I I asked many of them, listen
to me. You are a mother, and if your kid
(11:48):
it's caught with drugs, would you prefer your son or
daughter to go to jail or to go to an
institution to rehabilitate her or him if they are addicts?
Said the second rehabilitation, and I said, that's precisely what
(12:09):
I'm proposing, and they said, ah, why don't you explain
that a bit more? Now I understand. But the immediate
reaction for many people, the assuming a hardline position is
very popular. Let's kill the dog traffickers, let's hang them,
let's crucify, and everybody applaudse. The other issue, it's much
(12:31):
more difficult because it's another type of leadership. It's the
same issent as making war and making peace. Making war,
what type of leadership do you need? You need a
leadership that is vertical. You give orders, you rally the
forces around you, You satinize and accuse your adversary, and
(12:55):
so you're a good leader. Making war. Making peace needs
a really different types of leadership, more horizontal. Instead of
giving orders, you have to persuade, you have to educate.
And for example in the peace process, that I had
persuaded a mother to forgive the people who raped and
(13:21):
killed their daughter. Is very difficult, but it's the type
of leadership that you need to change the paradigm in
the world drugs and you have to persevere. And we're
making progress. We're making progress. You see in the United States,
which had the most hard life position, many of the
states in the United States have the matter one I legalized,
(13:43):
and you go to Europe and they're more and more
convinced that this is the way to go, and we
need to persevere and hopefully accelerate the work we're doing,
for example, in the World Commission on Drugs. Yeah, I mean,
I'll tell you, President, I was really following what you
were doing and saying back then very closely, and I
(14:04):
was extraordinarily impressed because I knew already back then that
you were thinking along these lines and we're looking for opportunities.
And I remember a few months before I saw you
in your office, I went to see President Calderon in
Mexico in his office, and you know, here he is
leading this bigjor war on drugs, crematical violence, taking on
(14:25):
the narcos. But I also know that he had been
saying some things like maybe we need to look at
alternatives to the prohibitionist approach. And then that summit that
you described and cart ahead of the Americans. How you
handled that so beautifully, giving Auto Perez, the Guatemalan former
general president, a chance to present, then giving President Obama
(14:47):
a chance to respond, and thereby show there was some
opening of space so I thought you were really being
masterful in moving this forward in the midst of everything
else that was going on. Because it's such a sensitive issue,
and people who are in power, the first thing they
want to do is rock the boat. If there's a
danger that the boat right capsites, and these type of issues,
(15:11):
it's better to not address them, especially when when you
are also dependent on other countries. Is one of the
circumstances that we have to live with is that since
this is a multinational problem, it's a traffic that is
multinational world. You need a multinational solution. And that is
(15:33):
why people in power sort of are reluctant to start
the process of changing. But fortunately we have more and
more people that have realized this is the way to go.
It's almost because, in a way, the situation of Columbia
or Mexico or Guatemala or so many other countries is
being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Right
(15:55):
on the one hand, a global illegal commodities market in
which you are in the middle and there's no way
to really prohibit it effectively, and another hand, these massive
political pressures both domestically and internationally. And I remember like
one of the options was almost like imagining for Guatemala
in this case, if we could only build a pipeline,
(16:15):
right so that all the cocaine coming out of Columbia
going through Central America could essentially go through a Guatemalan
pipeline pop out the other end without all the corruption
and all the black market, and maybe they could just
tax it. But of course that was just a hypothetical
and something that was a political and possibility. We'll be
(16:36):
talking more after we hear this ad. When I look
at Columbia, I mean Columbia really. I guess if you
look at all the countries in the world that have
been highly associated with drug trafficking and drug murders and
(16:56):
drug crime and drug politics, why is drugs in Columbia
is so fundamentally caught up with modern Columbia history over
the last fifty years. Why do you think, Well, I
think it's a combination of how we have a great
entrepreneurs We have an ideal country from the geography point
of view for marijuana and coca We became because of
(17:19):
our special circumstances producers of marijuana and of cocaine, and
the geography helped very much to expand the production and
we had this war with the farc with the gorillas,
and the gorillas controlled huge amounts of territory and they
(17:40):
benefit from the drug trafficking. They said that they were
not drop traffickers, but they taxed the drug traffickers and
they financed their war with the proceeds of drug trafficking.
So it's a combination of different circumstances. And they say
that the way that we started exporting the first exports
of drugs and Colombia was marijuana from a region called
(18:03):
the Sierra Nevada Santa Marta, which is a beautiful region,
and that a Swedish ship arrived in the border Santa
Marta full of American sailors that had been in Vietnam
and that they they have heard of this Santa Marta gold,
which was the best money one and the girl in
the world. And they asked somebody there, do you have
(18:25):
money Juanna Santa Marca. Of course, what do you need?
It said, can you bring me a pack? And they
brought it back and he was going to pay ten
dollars and they said, don't know, it's tempestos. He said,
is that cheap? So they bought all the production put
in the Swedish ship, and the legend says, this is
the first big export of money iguana, and that part
(18:48):
of the Columbia, that's the part where previously during the
Spanish and the British, the pirates used to be very
much present. So there was a culture of contraband there,
and so the marijuana traffic became more and more important.
And suddenly from another part of Colombia called Medagan, where
(19:08):
our industry grew. Because they are very effective entrepreneurs, they
started to discover that there was also a market in
the US, in Los Angeles, in New York for cocaine.
The coca plantations were in Bolivia and in Peru, and
they came through Colombia. They had some laboratories and were exported.
(19:31):
But they found out that a kilo of cocaine was
much more profitable than the king a kilo of marijuana.
But the logistics of taking a kilo of coca and
a kido iguana to the United States market with the same.
So they started switching or adding of the roots that
they had in the marijuana exports the cocaine, and that
(19:53):
grew and grew and grew, and what the what the
bodon was saying to you, the Central American countries became
sort of places to export to those countries and then
re export and that was a great business. And that
also contamidated the mafia's there, the criminal bands there, the
(20:14):
corruption there, and the problem they have right now all
of Central America is huge. Well, there was also you
left out one drug. I mean, there was a period,
I think right before you became president in two thousand
and ten all of the world right was getting their
heroin from Afghanistan, but the United States most of it
was coming from Columbia for about a decade until Mexico
(20:37):
displaced it. And I was curious. I never quite understood that.
Was it just that the Mexican traffickers were decided they'd
rather just grow it themselves and ship it and cut
out the Colombians Or was there actually a successful suppression effort.
Was it a simple market dynamics and lower costs of
production in Mexico. I remember, I remember that the early
(20:58):
part of my government, the police took me to a
place in the south of Colombia to eradicate supposedly the
last hector of Amapola in Colombia. I did that, and
I showed the flower and I said, this is the
last actor. Well it wasn't the last, and as long
as you have the demand, you will have supply. But yes,
(21:20):
this very effective suppression. Because the productional Polo was very
much concentrated, and because the gorillas did not control that region,
we were able to be more effective. But immediately, immediately
the balloon effect, they went to Mexico, and Mexico was
much closer to the US, so they became much more
(21:42):
efficient in providing heroin than Columbia. Well, now there's something
else interesting and actually very complimentary about Colombia, which is
obviously Peru has gone through terrible problems. Right, they had
a shining past Centro Luminoso gorilla group, not unlike the
FARC or others that was a real threat. Mexico has
(22:02):
had major problems over the years. Bolivia was almost a
coca you know, empire at some respects. But one of
the things that I noticed in Colombia was the extent
to which not just intellectuals but even politicians would at
one moment or another step out and say we need
something different. Why in your country and not in these
(22:24):
others does this happen? That's a good question. That's a
good question. Well, I think that our our democracy is
a bit stronger than the democracy and other countries, and
the cost of being controversial might be not as as
high politically, and because I think we've suffered more from
(22:46):
the drug war than the other countries. The other countries,
they were very very much concentrated. You didn't see in
Lima the effects of the expectation of coca from to
Columbia or to the United States. In Colombia, you start
to see the effects of the drug trafficking also in
(23:08):
the cities Mainta and the violence that generated the big,
very strong, invincible drug cartels. Remember the Mayan cartel, the
Counti cartel. They were taking over the country. We reacted
against that at a very high cost because we were
feeling how they were just destroying the country, destroying our democracy.
(23:31):
That did not happen in Peru or in other countries
because it was a much more low profile mafias that
did not want to take over the country but want
to simply run their business. So, President, let me ask
you if I can about some of your relationships with
other Latin American leaders on this drug issue. I mean,
(23:53):
with the exception of the hard left. You know Castro
in Cuba, Uh, you know Nicaragua, Uh, Venezuela, which are
totally opposed to any drug reform. As far as I
could see, you would have support across the spectrum. And
so here you have um we mentioned before Otto Perez Melita,
a right wing former general. But what about did you
(24:14):
ever discuss this issue with Mohika, the former left wing
guerrilla and who became president of Uruguay, who was just
focused on marijuana, or with Able Morales who was the
left wing leader, former Coca union leader who you know,
we go to the United Nations meetings in shoot Coca,
but never seemed to get all that involved. What were
your conversations with guys like that about during the American summit.
(24:37):
My approach to diplomacy was very different from the approach
that Peterson had. Remember that we had a very hard
confrontation with Venezuela and with Ecuador. And when I came
became president, I was thinking about the peace process. So
I said, listen, in diplomacy, you need to talk, and
so I started talking to challenge through the Ecuadoria in
(25:00):
a president to everybody, Lula and the Moxica and ever Morales,
and those were the ones that supported in the oas
the resolution calling for a change in the drug war. Today,
unfortunately you will not find that support because, for example,
(25:21):
in Brazil you have now a very hardliner also NATO
in the presidency and he prefers this approach of punitive,
hardline war against rugs because that sounds politically correct, and
so he's not going to risk the possibility of sacrifice
(25:44):
in popularity changing his views. And so we have seen
a shift to the rights in that America against the
progressive stance we sa is the drug traffic. That's what
I feel. But yes, I did speak to them. Choice
at that time was very much in favor, very much
(26:06):
in favor. Yes, I think what has happened in Venezuela
is that the drug traffic has become become a part
of their economy. But at that time that did not happen.
So when Chows did support that, and he thought that
that was the the correct way, also because he saw
(26:27):
it as an anti imperialist stand, the same as Morales.
Now this is this is this war on drugs is
an imposition of the US of the empire, and so
for different political reasons. But I remember having long talks
about this issue, because when you are convinced about something
(26:47):
that has the consequences that we've seen in the last
decades and we're still having the consequences today, you sort
of become passionate about about the issue. And that's what
has happened to be among many issues with this issue. Well,
you know, it's funny when you tell me the story
about your conversation with Chaves. I remember hearing that when
the Guatemalan president Otto Paris was talking to the other
(27:10):
Central American presidents and there was some interest in Honduras
and El Salvador et cetera in Costa Rica, and then
he talked to Artega in um Nicaragua, and I heard
what Ortega's response to Otto Paris was, Look, if you're
doing this to get money from the gringoes, I totally
supported if you're serious, forget about it, right. So it
(27:32):
was just a kind of cynical kind of response. What
about with Calderon, the Mexican president, who's a good friend
of mine and we became very good friends, and we
still our friends. He was elected president with the banner
of hardline position against the drug cartels. That was one
of the issues that got him elected, so this could
(27:52):
be interpreted as a shift. But he went along even
though he was reluctant. He supported the resolution, but he
was not very much convinced that that was the Routetoo.
I remember my conversation with it. Seemed like he got
the basic logic of why prohibition was doomed to failure,
but he was so preoccupied with fighting the narcos and
(28:13):
the frustrations of that that he felt there was nothing
in between at all. Um. I think, in fact, he
in one of the last speeches he ever gave his
president when he went up to the u n at
the end of two thousand twelve, he may have been
one of the first, if not the first president to
use the phrase drug prohibition to refer to that, which
was an interesting step out. And what about his successor?
(28:35):
Pinionetoto was quite open was it was quite the collaborative
in this stand. However, however, people who surround him, people
from the army, from the Navy, they had another stand.
It was very difficult, for example, even to get a
(28:55):
an agreement that we would working but nature myself for
the two navies two collaborate interdicting drugs in the c UH.
The Mexican Navy was not very, very enthusiastic about it,
and I always thought, why what is the question? Sometimes
(29:19):
life converted you into a Voltaian. Voltaire used to say,
think bad about something and you might be right, And
so I was always puzzled with the people around on
this particular issue. Yeah, you know, it's interesting you frame
it that way, because I remember for many years the
spring of the coca crops with click phost fate, the
(29:42):
herb side eradicating agent was a very controversial issue. And
I talked a few days ago with a friend of mine,
Aljandro Gaviria, your former Minister of Health, and he told
me about meeting with you to discuss this issue about
ending just ending the aerial eradication, even though there was
huge US pressure to keep it going, and you simply said, yes,
(30:02):
let's do it. Why had you, I mean, there was
gonna be political fallout from my government. Why were you
so ready to do that then? Because what I told
you at the beginning, my experience convinced me that that
didn't work, and that the consequences of spraying were terrible
in terms of the environment, in terms of public health,
(30:25):
and we even had a big route with equal equal
took us to the International Court of Justice, sued Colombia
and we were going to we were going to lose
that legal battle. But the the the main reason is
that it did not work. You sprayed, and immediately those
(30:47):
campesinos went and replanted, or they even invented ways to
protect themselves refrained. There's something called panella, which is which
is extracted from show ground, and they put panella on
the leaves and the spray did nothing to them. So
it did work and had terrible consequences. And when at
(31:10):
another guardian, I said, really it's not working. Oh what
would the United States? What would they say? And I said, well,
I don't care what they say. I think it's the
correct thing to do. Are you convinced the minister and
he said yes, well I'm convinced also, let's finish it.
Of course, it's a big reaction. They still today they
(31:32):
say that Colombia is producing coca and has increased the
production coca because of that decision. That is absolutely nonsense.
It's not because of that decision. And so yes, I
took the decision convinced that I was doing the correct thing,
and that was about eight years ago. I am still
convinced that that is correct, the correct decision and the
(31:53):
worst mistake. Enough said this publicly that President Dookie can
do right now, and he's thinking of re establishing the
spray because you will have all these peasants who if
they don't have an alternative, they will die to continue
to give food to their children. And that's why in
(32:16):
the peace agreement we included substituting coca for legal crops.
And let me give you a comparison. If you eradicate
by force or you spray, the rate of replanting goes
up to so after eradicating, they go and replant. We started,
(32:38):
after the peace process was signed, a very aggressive and
ambitious program of voluntary substitution. We paid the families and
we gave them instruments to plant something else that was legal.
And the United Nations verified how much replanting occurred with
that policy and they be planted was less than one percent.
(33:03):
So you see the difference up to sev seven oh
and less than one percent. That's the way to do it. Well,
let me challenge you on this, e bit, okay, because
I have huge amount admiration for what you did. With
the FARC agreement, obviously, and it had contained obviously an
entire chapter about drugs, and obviously investing in the livelihoods
of the camposinos was crucial. But when it comes to
(33:25):
the big global picture, it's not going to affect the
drug problem or the global cocaine markets, right, because even
if you get a hundred thousand Campesinos switching out of coca,
they'll just be replaced by people elsewhere in Colombia, Bolivia, Peru,
maybe Ecuador. So for Colombia it may have been crucial,
but globally it's a wash. I agree with you. That's
(33:46):
because of the balloon effect. Yes, if you continue to
have a demand for marijuana, of cocaine, of heroin in
the consuming countries, you will have to supply. This is
the contrary of what the econs name the says law.
This is Frenchshire economists that the production creates its own demand. Well,
(34:11):
in this case, the demand creates its own production. So
and it's so profitable that, yes, if we were able
to eradicate all the production of cocaine in Colombia, you
will immediately see and you're seeing it in other parts
of the world, in Asia and Indonesia. And that has
been the history of this issue since the Open Wars.
(34:33):
That has been the reality. The problem is that sometimes
because of political reasons, global leaders and global politicians don't
like to accept that. Let's take a break here and
go to an ad. One of the things that I
(34:58):
take pride in from my work in the US is
that we really initiated the whole. I mean, the question becomes,
how could it be that the United States, which championed
the drug war domestically and globally for almost a hundred years,
nonetheless became the global leader in marijuana legalization. And a
lot of it started with a very strategic approach with
legalizing medical marijuana in California in and then continuing to
(35:22):
other states and beginning to change the dialogue, and you know,
and then ultimately resulting in first Colorado and Washington in
twelve and other states. And I look in Latin America
now and I see that that's one of the few
drug reform issues which seems to be moving forward all
around the continent. And I think you played a key
role in making Columbia one of the leaders in this. Yes,
(35:43):
And for example, nobody would have imagined that that would
happen in Mexico and did in Colombia. Unfortunately, the current
government very conservative and very hardliner, and they started to
go back. They started to criminally eyes again the consumption
of drugs. And there's one exact date that I use
(36:08):
a lot as an example to tell the Columbians to
open their eyes. The three of November, when President Biden
was elected, eight states in the United States legalized bod iguana.
That same day, the Colombian House of Representatives, because of
the pressure of the government, rejected a law to do
(36:32):
the same thing. And so what is the consequence of this?
The money stays in the US, That's where I tell
my fellow collumbience, and the violence stays here in Colombia.
You're exporting your You're being stupid by not legalizing it.
We are much more efficient producers of bard iguana. And
then the Californians or in Colorado or Oregon. And when
(36:56):
you prohibited here, you will continue with a violent and
the mafia's and the United States is legalizing it. But
another issue here is how do you explain it. Campasino
who grows body want but he's doing something illegal and
he has to go to jail. If you have the
(37:17):
United States legalizing it, they tell you, is that not stupid?
It is with the reality. I remember after we legalize
marijuana and Colorado Washington, reading the papers, President Santo's condemns
the US for their their hypocrisy. Here you are legalizing
your own country and still expecting us to keep eradicating
(37:39):
the plants in our own And I think, I mean,
I guess in a way what happened in Colorado and Washington,
and then I guess Mohican Uruguay really did help open
up space to move this issue forward. And even your successor,
d K is being respectful on the medical marijuana piece, right, yes,
because and no, and and the pressure has been a
big pressure because a lot of companies started to invest
(38:02):
in Colombia and they said, you can't just go go back.
So with the medical marijuana, he has been much more positive.
But for recreational purposes he's still very very reluctant. But
so now I have because they asked me, I have
a much more radical stand. I think we have to
(38:22):
legalize the coca production or not. I know that we're
years from that, but also we need to regulate and
legalize all the drugs because otherwise if you if you prohibit,
the word prohibition is the keyword. If you prohibit, you
you create all kinds of terrible collateral damages. So as
(38:46):
we're speaking, it's the middle of May, uh and we
don't know what will happen by the time people here
this in this summer. But there is a cocaine, a
very thoughtful cocaine legalization bill in the Congress of Columbia.
Now right, it's that, would you know, allow the coca
products to be sold openly and make cocaine powder cocaine
strictly regulated and not allow crack cocaine to be sold
(39:08):
to decriminalized. So are you able and are you willing
to be speaking out in favor of this bill? Are
you hesitant to have already spoken in favor of this bill?
But unfortunately I don't see that this bill will pass. No,
it's the beginning, though, it's the beginning. Yes, I think
we have to try again explain much more. The world
(39:28):
is to teach the Colombians why this is good, because
the image they have, they said, this is terrible. This
president is poisoning kids. Well, you need to do on
a big effort to explain that it's the contrary that
we are. We're we're doing something to to benefit many
(39:49):
of the kids that today, for example, are in the
criminal band because of group trafficy or adds. This is
precisely to address this issue with much more humane and
effect to approach. So a question I asked virtually all
my guests, and I'm gonna ask you. Let me frame
it in this way. When President Obama wrote his first autobiography,
(40:11):
he talked about having been a young man smoking marijuana,
trying a little cocaine. So, if you were writing your
autobiography and being open about what your own past experience was,
what is your own past experience with these substancestive and
illegal the same as Obama's. I smoked my first joint
of marijuana in Kansas, the University of Kansas, and the
(40:34):
first time I tried coke was here in Columbia. Uh.
But so my answer is I follow Obama, I think, okay?
And another question, Columbia really in somers And I don't
know if you've ever heard of a professor named Richard
Schulte's He was the famous Harvard the godfather of ethnobodany,
(40:55):
and he was he was a mentor of Wade Davis.
That's right, that's right. He was a great right on
these issues. And what I've heard is that Colombia probably
contains more natural psychoactive natural substances and plants. And part
of this is part of the indigenous culture in Colombia.
And now we're seeing this blossoming of psychedelics research and
also in the desire to include, you know, the native
(41:17):
populations in this. I'm curious, how are where are you
of this, of this tradition in Colombia and what it
implications might be. Well again, later in life, I have
been learning about the the wisdom of the indigenous communities.
I had an experience with them when I was Minister
(41:38):
of Defense. There was this friend of mine who was
after my Minister of the Environment, who took me to
talk to the indigenous communities in the high mountains of
the Sierra. But he said, as Minister, you can because
of the war, their leaders had not been able to
(41:59):
come together for for a long time. You can help
them come together simply by picking them up and bring
them into this place, this beautiful place high the mountain.
So I did that, and I went there with my family,
my wife and my few kids, and these governors they
are called or the mammos, arrived and they said to me,
(42:21):
we have to speak among ourselves before and then we'll
speak to you. Well, I thought it was one hour
or two hours. They spent thirty hours talking and chewing
coca they called Mambia chewing cocca for thirty hours, and
then they called me in and they start to explain
(42:42):
to me other culture, all their their philosophies. There, their
vision about justice, especially their vision about the environment, and
how they are our older brothers. So I was very
much impressed with am and I started to to hear
them more. And when I got inagurgated as president. The
(43:04):
day I was innagurgated, I went to them and asked
for their permission, because they are our older brothers. As
a gesture to recognize them as the indigenous communities that
were here before anybody, I asked for their blessing to
go to Congress and be intagorated, and they said yes,
(43:24):
and they gave me a mad date. They said, you
must make peace but not only among people, among human beings.
You must make peace with nature because we have a
disconnection with nature, and you, unfortunately going to suffer because
she is mad, and when she's mad, we all suffer
the consequences. And one week later, even one week later
(43:47):
after I got in degradated Colombia was hit by the
worst Ninia phenomenon in the history of Columbia, that the
worst natural disaster. The first year I was in office,
the first year and a half, was administered a fludded country.
So I became engaged with them. They started to teach
me about the environment, about how rich our environment in
(44:09):
Columbias and how we had to protect it. And that's
why we put in place very aggressive environmental policies to
protect our biodiversity, to protect our rivers, to protect these
ecosystems that are only in Colombia. And I am now
convinced that we have to hear these Indi discribunities all
around the world in Columbia because they have more wisdom.
(44:31):
If we hadn't heard them before, we were not facing
this existential threat, which is climate change. And they have
been saying this for a long long time. Well, Wammanuel Santos,
that's a beautiful way to conclude our conversation on the
wisdom of the indigenous people. So thank you ever so
much for taking this time to have this conversation, and
(44:52):
I look forward to our past crossing before long. Syco
Act is the production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures.
It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by Katcha
Kumkova and Ben Cabrick. The executive producers are Dylan Golden,
Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronovski for Protozoa Pictures,
(45:15):
Alice Williams and Matt Frederick for I Heart Radio and
me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is by Ari Belusian and
a special thanks to Avivit Brio, Sef Bianca Grimshaw and
Robert Beatty. If you'd like to share your own stories,
comments or ideas, please leave us a message at eight
three three seven seven nine sixty. That's one eight three
(45:39):
three Psycho zero. You can also email us as Psychoactive
at protozoa dot com or find me on Twitter at
Ethan Nadelman. And if you couldn't keep track of all this,
find the information in the show notes. Next time I'm Psychoactive,
I'll be talk talking with Dr Nora Vocal, who has
(46:02):
headed the National Student on drug abuse since two thousand
and three. That's the lead research funding agency in the
world about drugs. I have to say I was a
bit surprised she accepted my invitation to join us, so
this should be a particularly good episode. There's one issue
I think, going back a number of years ago, where
if I pat myself on the back, I think I
was more right than you were, which is people were saying,
(46:24):
if you're gonna legalize marijuana, you're gonna see this explosion
in adolescent used of marijuana and problematic use. You were right.
I was expecting the use of my one among adolescence
would go up, and overall it hasn't subscribed to Cycleactive
now see it, don't miss it.
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