Chef Nikki Steward on Cooking with Cannabis

Chef Nikki Steward is one of the most famous and talented of chefs who cook and bake with cannabis. She describes her brand “The High End Affair” as a traveling “infused culinary experience" and has curated large dinner parties for Snoop Dog, Dave Chapelle, DJ Khaled and many other celebrities. I’m an eager consumer but an inexperienced chef so I peppered her with questions: Is there something different about cooking for people who are high on cannabis and how does she standardize dosing? What about cooking for people who use cannabis as a medicine? Have old school techniques of cooking with cannabis become obsolete with high potency extracts and does she use all parts of the cannabis plant? How does she keep from getting too high when she’s tasting as she cooks? And how does she deal with the challenge of people “overdosing” at a dinner?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production
of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the
show where we talk about all things drugs. But any
of views expressed here do not represent those of I
Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed,

(00:22):
heat as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they
may not even represent my own and nothing contained in
this show should be used as medical advice or encouragement
to use any type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. You know,

(00:44):
I know a lot of times I introduced an episode
by saying we have a special treat or this is
going to be really different. But this one really is
going to be different because my guest today is as
chef Nikki Stewart. She's just one of the real stars
of the cannabis ulinary world and her niche has been
you know, basically organizing these dinners, sometimes dinners for hundreds

(01:07):
of people, oftentimes for famous people, and becoming a really
you know, an important voice in the whole cannabis culinary world.
I mean, she's she's done stuff for Dave Chappelle, the
comedians his summer camp. She's done stuff for Snoop Dogg,
for the record producer and executive DJ Holla. She's teamed
up with the fashion line son Laurent and the Kognac

(01:28):
brand Martel. Her brands called the High End of Fair,
which is a traveling infused culinary experience. So, Chef NICKI,
thanks so much for joining me on Psychoactive. Yes, You're
so welcome. Thank you for having me eat. I'm excited
to be here. One of my great regrets is I've
yet to I've been to a few cannabis infused dinners

(01:50):
in my life, but I haven't done one of yours yet.
So I feel a little like, you know, not having
benefited from the actual experiential experience of having done this.
But just tell me your philosophy, the way you think
about cannabis and its relationship to food. Yeah, well, I
love to start with that question because I have to
often times remind myself why I'm here and the relationship

(02:15):
with cannabis and food and what I feel like it
should be with everyone. Um, at some point, even if
you're just a novice, is to be able to have
cannabis as an ingredient in your pantry, in your home,
and not be afraid of adding it to food or
any sort of wellness regiment in regards to just being

(02:39):
a complete, whole, holistic like person and keeping that in
the vibes, you know, like in restaurants. As a chef,
we use wine, we use alcohol, we use a lot
of those things and food, right because if you're using
a bourbon and something, the actual APV dissipates. But cannabis
is different because as soon as you activate it with

(03:03):
heat and as soon as you activate it inside your
body in your bloodstream, it begins a different type of elevation.
And so understanding what your body feels like when it
goes through that process is really important for me to
always explain. So I've always wanted to be able to
normalize cannabis. I am a mother, you know, on working mother,

(03:26):
and so I always remember how I started, you know,
kind of using cannabis and my regular daily regime and
started cooking with it for my own benefits. So yeah,
that's pretty much how I feel about it. But let
me ask you. I mean, you know we're gonna be
talking obviously about cannabis, and you know that how it

(03:46):
integrates with people getting high as they're eating, how it
elevates your sense of taste, the pleasure element of it
um and the taste element EVA. But let's start off
with a medicinal side. And I was wondering, have you
you know, cooked or been cooked specifically ever in your
past for people who are sick dealing with medical conditions
and had to try to figure out what sorts of

(04:07):
combination of different strains or types of cannabis and food
would be most helpful for the people you're trying to help. Yeah,
I mean in some of my earlier days when cooking
with cannabis and really you know, working with people to
get them to understand what their actual needs. Where I
had a lot of patients and um, a lot of

(04:28):
patients who had medical cards and some who didn't, and
those circumstances, they're typically very high dose levels of cannabis
to the point where the average person could not normally
consume consume them at that rate. Uh So we're talking
about things like RSO, which is rick semps in oil,
which is a very heavy concentrate that a lot of

(04:50):
people use to treat cancer, and different elements that are
either like requiring them to have pain medicine or requiring
them to stimulate appetite, and so a lot of those
things are used. So I would usually also often focus
on what type of level of concentrate and the THHC

(05:13):
levels that were presented in those in order to figure
out what type of like food item to put it
into where it's balanced and still pleasurable. Not overly turkey,
but sometimes the higher you get and percentage levels, uh,
you know, it's a little bit stronger on the taste

(05:34):
as far as are concerned. Yeah, So I'm curious especially
about the evolution in cooking with cannabis, because I think,
you know, when I was growing up in there, you know,
marijuana brownies and things like that. And even when you
were growing up, right, I mean a lot of that
were like mostly about like butter and coconut oil extractions,
and I thought, I don't know, this was some a

(05:56):
chef I was talking to say, you know, the butter
oil is cooked low and slow for a long period
of time with the cannabis flowers strained and baked. And
has things changed dramatically since then? I mean, are the
old techniques even still used? Have they been displaced with
all the new concentrates and all this sort of stuff.
Or is it a combination of the old and the news. Still,
I think it's a combination of the old and the new. Still.

(06:18):
I mean at home consumers who want to make their
own tinctures and like carrier oils, meaning like coconut olive oil,
avocado oil, different things like that, and butter, they still
make them at home. There's a lot of like cool
devices that you can buy. Um. One of them that

(06:38):
I like is called Ardent. It's very measured out, So
it's nice because you can do these things at home
and be a little bit more exact than back in
the days when we all first started doing them in
crock pots and like straining them in cheese cloth and
like go with this low decarboxylation of the cannabis and
then moving it into a carrier oil. So those machines

(07:03):
are great. They do them for you. Now for me
and my own preference as being in a professional field
and having to have an expertise in dosing, it won't
work for me because I'm doing volume and so my
numbers have to be a little bit more finite. So
I prefer to use products like a nano tech bioavailability products,

(07:25):
which is completely different. And then that's where I'm at now.
But before I went from you know, carrier oils, and
I went to distillates, and then I went to concentrates
and isolates and things like that, and now I'm doing
working with a product that the onset when it goes
through your body, it completely bypasses your liver and go

(07:47):
straight to your bloodstream, which means that it takes less time,
and which means that instead of this being like, you know,
I'm waiting for this brownie to kick in, or waiting
for these edibles to kick in, it's been about an hour,
so let me eat another one. Instead of that, it's
like you're feeling this within fifteen minutes. You know. I
have to say on the on the dosing thing, I

(08:08):
might have only been to a few cannabis infused dinners,
and I remember one, you know, each dish they said
this is gonna be you know, ten milligrams THHC and
someone so milligrams a CBD and maybe there was I
don't know, some cbns or something like that in it,
and I remember being struck that the whole dinner called
for more or less seventy milligrams, and I'm thinking, like,

(08:29):
when I take like my edible and want to get
pretty high go for massage, ten milligrams is a solid
dose for me. And there have been times when I've
taken twenty milligrams and got in, you know, too high.
And yet what I noticed with that dinner was that
I took fifty sixty seventy milligrams over the course of
some hours, no alcohol. And this was downtown in Manhattan,

(08:52):
and then I was still able to get on the subway,
go back home and just lie on my couch and
have a very wonderful chill high. And I'm curious, like,
what is it about the fact that when you're combining
with food that somehow the amount you can consume that
one can consume of the t HC is so much
higher than when I'm just doing a simple edible like

(09:13):
a chocolate or or a candy or something like that.
I'll tell you why. So most chefs, we do a
very interesting balancing act, and I do it at a
very high rate, meaning that when you're getting THC and
certain courses of the food, I'm always balancing you with

(09:36):
high doses of CBD and other ways that you may
not realize, like my entire bar, like all of the tinctures,
all of the syrups, all the bidders, they have CBD
in them. And so when you're having a cocktail, even
if we have a low sometimes we do a very
low amount of alcohol, just like less than an ounce,

(09:59):
less than a half bounce sometimes just to get the flavor.
The CBD on top of that is completely balancing you
and knocking you back down. So same thing when I
also do certain courses, I'll do different ratios of three
to one, one to one, two to ones. I'm literally
just balancing you with you know, a certain portion of
CBD to your th HC so you can consume higher amounts.

(10:23):
Like some guests are what we call lightweights, meaning that
you may not get over twenty milligrams the entire dinner.
And then some are mid level, which are forty five
to fifty. And then we have you know, like our
seventy five. So we have some of our v I
P guests they're just like lay it on me, so

(10:46):
we lay it on them. And then they also get
to take home food. That's part of you being a
v I if you get to go food. So um
so that's a cool thing. So you can go and
get high at home, or you can put it in
the freezer and heat it up when you're ready. Um.
But yeah, so that's it. It's just a balancing act.
And the CBD is is crucial to this. You're saying

(11:06):
that that helps take there's if there was no CBD involved,
people will be getting much higher, maybe too high, too
fast without that. Yeah, I mean it's that is definitely so. Um,
so you would like I'm timing every course at you know,
like twenty five to thirty minutes because I'm allowing enough

(11:27):
time in between each course to allow your elevation to
occur and for you to try to settle into that.
And so depending on where I'm at as far as
how I start off low and slow with the courses,
I literally come out and visit every single table and
have a conversation when every person just so I can

(11:48):
make sure that they're elevating safely and comfortably. And so
it's like I said, it's it's a combination of being
like a caregiver and a chef and you know, um
also a scientist and I studied pharmacy and college, so
that's also a part of that bedside manner that I

(12:10):
have as far as making sure that quote unquote your
patient is okay and not having any issues with their medication. Yeah.
So so, Nikki, I mean, you got this degree um
in pharmacology, How does that really impact your evolution as
a chef in a cannabis chef and studying pharmaceutical sciences,

(12:30):
You'll you'll definitely have to go over what it means
to like properly dose someone. I did a lot of
a lot of my studies and compounding pharmacy, which is
the creation of drugs, and then also moving into retail pharmacy,
which is the dispensing of drugs, and so always understanding

(12:53):
what interacts with the body and understanding what contra indicates
a like a medicine with something else, you know, like
if you get a prescription and like hey, if you're
taking a lot of great fruit in maybe you shouldn't
take this medicine or if you like all these things.
So I'm always very mindful, you know, like if there
is a guess that is on other medication, I'm always

(13:17):
you know, taking that into consideration and that experience. But
I'm also taking into consideration what a healthy dose of
cannabis is and how it can like sit in your bloodstream,
you know, and making sure like any other medications that
you're taking, it doesn't interfere with that. So, I mean,

(13:37):
there are times any especially even getting into like mushroom
journeys or any other type of psychoactive you do have
to take in consideration if people are on SSR eyes
or they're on like heavy narcotics and other things. Just
so I'm mindful, and there are times sometimes we have

(13:57):
to like safely and or regretfully decline um sometimes experiences
for people based upon if they're already on a lot
of medications, which means that we just asked them to
readjust certain things before they come to dinner or enter
into an experience with us, right right, right now. Tell

(14:19):
me in terms of the other degree, I mean, I
do I assume that these dinners are either no alcohol
or very low alcohol, very low yeah, yeah, because those
things were not necessarily I mean, people would just get
too high. Yeah, people would get way too high. Everyone
not everyone loves a cross fad, but you know people
some people enjoy being cross faded, and some people it
could take a you know, very not good turn because

(14:42):
when you're cross fading too much with alcohol and cannabis.
You can get dizzy, you can pass out, you know,
like all those things. So during that course of time
that I'm with you for the dinner, you're not consuming
alcohol at very high rates. Most of our cocktail else
are mocktails, and then the ones that do have alcohol,

(15:04):
like I said, they're less than like a half ounce,
just so you can get the effect. We actually have
started brewing different types of tease to mimic you know,
certain types of you know, like alcohol influence, but it's
actually t m hm. So stick on this issue of dosing.
So um, you know, I heard that you just recently,

(15:26):
um did a dinner at south By Southwest, and I
reached out to a bunch of friends who were there,
and one of them Steve de'angelo, who's the you know,
entrepreneur and activists, and I said, so, what do you think?
And he wrote back to me like yesterday, goes Nikki
gave the best pre dinner preparation speech I've ever heard.
And then they had come down packages for overdosers, and

(15:49):
then he said the food was mostly Asian fusionish multi
layer flares and textures. But tell me like, what was
that pre dinner prep speech that you gave to your
your dinner crap? Tell me more about your dinner itself
by self list. Of course, First of all, I love
Steve and last Personer's projects, so shout out to him.
So the prep speech before the first course is served,

(16:10):
It's really kind of like an adult conversation, but it
builds one on one to every individual. It's like, hey,
I know we're all adults, and I know sometimes we
over consume or maybe we have the thoughts of over consuming.
But I've measured each one of these courses out very meticulously,
and so I want to make sure that you're consuming

(16:32):
them properly. And then I also have a conversation with
them is if they feel themselves getting too high too fast,
you know, like if the tips of your ears to
get warm, that's usually a little indication like, well, something's
happening here. And so I asked them to, you know,
like raise their hand and try to be responsible for

(16:53):
themselves as best as they can, or the person next
to them tell them that, hey, and I may need
a hand end and a server or anyone that is
working the event on my staff will come to you
and will get you. Um we call an undo and
undo as a product that I use to bring your
high down in about thirty minutes and so. And it's

(17:17):
a really dope product and that I've been using for
the last few years at my events and it works
really well. So sometimes midway during the dinner, we had
people even on Monday, that we're like, hey, uh yeah,
I need to undo. They take it, and I still
see them sitting there an hour later, still consuming. I'm like, hey,
are you good, like of course, Like I'm back, like

(17:39):
I need another I'm ready for course course five and
so yeah. So part of that is that conversation. But
I also want people to enjoy the experience and enjoy
each other and network and move around and talk to
the people at your table, and so I asked them
to put their phones away. So I do have a
no phone policy, and it's just for you to be

(17:59):
in that moment, in that space. And I don't mind
if you take pictures of the menu or the plate,
but you know, not of each other unless it's your
specific group, you know what I mean. So that's part
of like that policy. Typically in other markets, we have
great things like lift that will sponsor us to make
sure everyone gets a ride home at a discount rate.

(18:21):
So we have a lot of little like fail safes
to make sure that you are good. And I don't
care if you need to sit for you know, an
extra hour while we're cleaning up and breaking down, that's fine.
We'll take care of you, but we want to make
sure you are a okay to get home. We'll be
talking more after we hear this ad. Can you say,

(18:57):
what are some of the ingredients in that undo? It
help people come down from a too high high? Oh? Yeah,
of course. One of the um and I'll tell you
it's a it's a product you can readily find online.
One of the ingredients is like cold press olive oil.
And so what that does if you're realizing that, like

(19:18):
part of the reason you're too high is because you
know you've got all your endocannabinoid system is just like
going crazy right now. So what this does is it
goes and it kind of sucks all of that down.
And so there's vitamin E in there, and there's also
alive toil and it's just three ingredients, and the this
glycerin purified water and it's just lip its and it's

(19:43):
stripping your system. It's going through your bloods dream and
just pulling everything down. And when it comes to the dosing,
I mean, how do you I mean, obviously there's some
room for era on in terms of you know, whether
it ends up being four milligrams or six in a
dish or whatever, But how I mean, when you're cooking
for dozens, just a hundreds, how do you standardize it?

(20:03):
If you're doing stuff in a blender, I mean, how
do you make sure that each piece of pie or
each entree has got roughly the same dose in it?
And are you actually testing any of these things periodically
to to see what the with level is? Yeah, this
is just this is math and science really right here.
I mean, of course we'll have to just take you know,

(20:24):
how many people times how many ounces each portion is
times like, and then divide that by how many milligrams
you wanted to be and then I mean, like literally
just kind of going through this math. And so typically
if I have you know, hundred guests two, three hundred guests,

(20:44):
breaking that down as far as and the bulk amounts two,
and then we have to make sure the portions are
correct upon serving, right, And then there's other times where
I have to individually those depending on the type of
product that I'm using and so and individually dosing is
exactly what it is, meaning that I have to go

(21:04):
over each portion times, you know, a hundred, two hundred,
three hundred, which is you know, a little bit more tedious,
but it is a very exact. And those are usually
the two ways. It's just a lot of math. And
I thank god that, like, um, you know, I was
in a lot of science classes and school that I
can you know, a plus B equalcy then I didn't

(21:27):
divided by this, and then you know, go through that process.
And when you're doing you're cooking, I mean, look most chefts,
you're constantly tasting to make sure you're getting it right.
I mean, do you land up getting high as you're
cooking and tasting or have you developed sufficiently high enough
tolerance that it's not really hitting you that way? Both
honestly both. There are times where like, yes, I have

(21:51):
totally fucked myself up, for sure, But then there are
times where my tolerance is so high that most people
would just be rocked, and I'm really like, oh, okay,
let's let's breathe through it and finish this out. So yeah,
I mean I've definitely done it. I don't think that
any person that makes edibles or infuses things hasn't. But

(22:16):
what I do do I will tell you this because
I'm really like, very specific and very like intentional about flavors.
I do wait into the very last possible moment to
infuse it, just because I want to make sure the
flavors are correct. And so before like I put anything,

(22:39):
any cannabis product in there, I'm getting it to a
point where I'm like, Okay, this is exactly how it's
going to taste the product that I was looking for.
This is the end result. And then I add the
cannabis product to that. I see. But but the cannabis product, right,
I mean there is an element in which is also
part of the taste. Right, I mean maybe our term

(23:00):
seans the key element. And if so, can you explain
to the audience what tirpeenes are and when you say
you want to get the taste just right before you
add a cannabis element. But cannabis is going to affect
the taste? How does all that play out together? Yeah,
so tirpeenes do play um a role in it, But
I'm also a person that have split on the execution

(23:22):
of cannabis dishes with high turt profiles. And turt profiles,
I mean that the flavors is the essential oil of
the plant. So that's not just but even things like
teas and herbs and things like exactly exactly, and so

(23:43):
a lot of times the turpin flavors just vary. And
so if you have like alimining more like profile or
a lininal profile, like, you may have some notes that
are a little bit more like dank and a little
bit dirty, And I mean in a nice way. I
don't mean like dirty, like gross, but it just mean
it has a little bit more of a rustic smell

(24:05):
to it. Um. But all of those will change the
way the food taste the food with the way it
tastes on your palate. So what I do is I
separate the tirpenes from the actual product that I like too,
So I like to I like have products that isolated out,
so meaning there's more of a muted, like neutral taste.

(24:27):
And then what we do is we take tirpine concentrates
and we add it at the end, so you get
it on the nose, but you don't get it so
much on the tongue and the taste when you're consuming it.
Are there particular tirpeenes that you most love to cook with?
And are the tirrpeenes that people liking food oftentimes the
same ones that they like when they're consuming or smoking

(24:48):
for example, Yeah, I mean when you're smoking a lot
oftentimes like that very fragrant, fresh citruacy you know, going
through your nose, or like I said, the peony tastes
going through your nose, and people enjoy tasting their wheat,
that is for sure. Like there there's a whole marketing

(25:11):
campaign around flavors right of cannabis, and cannabis often takes
on names that are like sweet and fun like gelatos
and Sherbird's and you know, like these things like that,
And so a lot of times I do prefer, you know,
things that I can mesh well with actual like lemon grass,

(25:35):
Like what could I pair with a lemon grass? Like
maybe durban poison. That's something that's a little bit more
fresh and lemony and citruacy, So I compare, can compare
that with you know, something in a dish. So I'm
very selective when it comes to that, And I'm I
only use terpene like isolation on things that I think

(25:57):
that makes sense. There are oftentimes where some things just
don't make sense and it would just ruin the flavor.
Things that are light and soft and fluffy. Certain profiles
of certain terpenes would just overpower and you won't even
get when I'm trying to give you you know, so,
um yeah, I am a person that likes a player

(26:17):
around with that. Like I said, it makes sense when
you're doing it at home. It's very hard to isolate that.
So when you do things at home and you're making
things just flower, you're gonna get all of the terps
that are in that flower. And by the way, she
just saved for the oys, because here we're dealing with
a hominin u that enters into this discussion. There's flower,

(26:38):
and there's flower. There's flower fl oh, you are right,
And there is cannabis flower fl oh, you are And
then there's a flower, the part of the plant which
is the one that you know basically people like to
smoke or vape or even use for food. And so
when you're talking about flower, you're talking about the f
L O W E R. Right, But are you ever

(26:58):
using a cannabis flower or fl oh you are you
know what, that's something that's really kind of a little
tough thing to do. Um, but not it's not completely
if you because cannabis has such a oily residue, and
so when you're trying to make something as fine as flour,
you have to use you know, something maybe like an

(27:19):
isolate or things like that, something that's water soluble. So
it hasn't been done really well. But I foresee it.
Foresee it, you know, that is my endgame of being here,
meaning that like you should be able to have this
these types of products in your pantry and like a

(27:41):
diversity of them, and so it shouldn't just stop at
you know, like oils and butters. It should be able
to be in things that are much softer, like flour
or sugar or even baking soda and like things like that.
There's a lot of different things that we use every
day in the kitchen that if I'm able to slide

(28:02):
cannabis in there somewhere, I think we'll all be happy campers.
I feel like I'm gonna have a like a Trader Joe's,
but with cannabis products ambition, so so Nikki. I mean,
just if you think back on all all the all
the meals you put together, what's the one that just
stands out in your memory? If I kind of have to,

(28:25):
and I'll do it really quick. So my very first dinner,
and that was an infused dinner, was for Snoop and
it was the launch of his media company called Mary Jane.
It was a campaign they were doing, and that was
my first challenge when it was you have to pull
out this pharmaceutical sciences back and remember like all of

(28:50):
your old stuff. Because it was like two people I
had a cannabis company dropped me off like four and
a half ounds of just flower and they were like,
just go to work. And I was like, ship, well,
I've got to break all of this down into like
different methods that I couldn't use to infuse food. And

(29:13):
it was so many celebrities there, and I was just like,
I really hope I get this right. I mean, because
it was really my first time doing two and fifty
people and a large setting and six to seven courses
in Hollywood, and so like, you know you have in
the back of your mind, don't suck this up. And
so I did a pretty good job. And then consequently

(29:36):
years later, I'm having a party in Oakland and in
walks Mike Dirt from Green Day and I was like,
oh hey. And then in walks E forty and then
all these other like Gary Payton, like all of these
other and that was a moment that I was like, huh,
because all of them said I've been waiting to meet you,
and I was like, you have. That's interesting, you know

(29:58):
what I mean. So you're having like then your nineties
childhood like Green Day, and then you're having hip hop
icons and then basketball legends and like all of these folks,
they're communing and having a great time with you know,
regular folks as well as influencers. And those are all
sorts of just two very moments where I was just like,

(30:18):
I think I'm probably doing something right. And the food
it's always gonna be great. So I'm not worried about
the food necessarily. I know my food translates. I'm also
just worried about making sure everyone's having a good time.
And cannabis brings everyone around the pot, so here's a
double entangle for you around the pot and around the pot.
So it's a food and weed and so I'm pretty

(30:42):
good at bringing people around the pot. Do you ever
have any say over the music that's in the background, Yes,
I'm I'm a vibes person, so I select all the
DJs and the bands personally, and I also get them
to understand where are the influences with the music. I
have a curated list that people share called Vibes, curated

(31:06):
by Chef Niki, and they're really just kind of like
more up tempo, like when you're consuming, I can't play
slow music because everyone is going to be like and
this soft space and wanting to sit down. So I
have to have a music that keeps a certain tempo
that will keep people mingling and keep people upbeat and
singing along and saying hi to their friends. So yeah,

(31:30):
I have a lot of infused, a lot of influence
over the music that is like really important to me. Now.
I was at one other dinner where where the chef
starre saying that they wanted to use not just you know,
the THHC aspects of the cannabis plant or the CBD
or cbns, but they also wanted to be using other
parts of the cannabis plants, the seeds, the stalks, the roots,

(31:50):
and the leaves and part because of the health benefits
in those. I don't know if there was a flavor
element to it, But what about you Are you using
those other elements of the of the cannabis plant, and
if so, is it about health or flavor or what? Yeah,
I think that's about a lot of things. I mean,
as chefs, we use things for garnish a lot. So
oftentimes you'll see the actual leaf used as a garnish

(32:14):
or um some sort of like preparation on plating. And
then often you may see like different parts maybe like
cut up as part of an herb, like that is
like a finishing herb. So I think that is important.
For sure. I have a very soft intro with most
people because most people are not just gonna chew the

(32:37):
actual plant. I mean I I would because but I'm
weird like that and so, but actually getting someone to
like nibble on the stem or the stalk or like seeds,
it's you know, like that's a very like direct angle.
So I am trying to like get people to normalize

(33:00):
this consumption of cannabis in general and then working them
in with other types of like step ups, which I
believe is where we're at, you know, having other health benefits.
But I think we're first getting people to realize like
there's so many benefits of cannabis, like undiscovered, and the
ones we have are so immense and they're happening all

(33:24):
the time. And then you're having all these other things,
you know, like people are starting to learn out to
learn about th h c A t h c V,
and then people are learning about all these other cbn
cb g s, and then they're learning about delta A
delta not. You know, it's like there's like a lot
of options. And so when there's so many options, like
the average person, it's just like I want to get high,

(33:46):
and I'm like, all right, cool, I got you there.
So let's also talk about what else you can get
out of being high, and then giving them that soft
intro and to understand this whole new world of cannabis.
It's it's it's pretty huge, you know. I tell people
the same thing about mushrooms. It's a whole world. It's huge,
it's undiscovered, like all these different strains were still we're

(34:09):
at the tip of this m Well you don't. I'm
curious because ever since I started, you know, smoking, we
when I was about eighteen, you know, I used to
love get just getting high before going out to a restaurant,
and sometimes it had the advantage of making food that
wasn't very good oftentimes taste really good, and making food
that was already very good taste fantastic. And in fact,

(34:30):
now is i've got an older I actually make an
effort not to consume cannabis before I eat, because then
I'll eat too much. Like I just can't. I have
friends like that, they just can't do cannabis anymore because
the munchies are, you know, so much that they just
overeat and it's you know, they need to keep their
weight down and all this sort of stuff. But what
I'm wondering about is is there something distinctive about cooking

(34:50):
for people who are high, like the way in which
cannabis elevates our senses, including our olfactory senses, our taste buds.
Is there something about clicking it that that I she
you shift what you're doing or the way you're thinking
about the dish because you know your consumer is going
to be high at their time and therefore tasting the
dish differently than they would if they were not high. Yeah,

(35:13):
that's funny, I because I think about that when I'm hot,
you know, and I'm like, oh, you know, what would
taste really good? You know, I go through that myself,
and so a lot of times when I'm doing menus,
I'm kind of in the middle of that, so I
kind of transport myself into the guests of diners like

(35:34):
Psyche and so, you know, the things that taste really
good when you're high are things that are fatty, are sugary,
you know, like the spices on there and make a difference.
Things that are spicy or like warm spices really hit hard.
So how can I figure this out and get you

(35:55):
a really good experience where it's not like not driving
up your cholesterol and giving you a bunch of like
artificial flavors and sugars, and so, knowing that you'll be high,
what I do is in between there, I give you
food that is uninfused intentionally, meaning that I have number
one dishes that come out in between the courses that

(36:16):
are like filler foods that you're like, oh my god,
is that caragot mac and cheese? What the funk? I
want it? So you get it, you know, like to
have these moments where people are like, I didn't know
that I wanted that until you set it out, but
it's such a great idea, and so I have I

(36:37):
like to have fun. I like I do very refined dishes,
but in between their offer very like playful things and
things that are very relatable and very fun because you know, like,
who doesn't like cheese when they're high? Sometimes unless you're lactose.
So we'll give you another option, you know. So yeah, yeah,
I gotta tell you something. I I say, this the

(36:58):
single most sea tacular culinary experience of my life, and
I need to tell you about it because then it
will lead into a stead of other questions here. But there,
there used to be a restaurant the Upper West Side
of New York. It was like the one really high
end restaurant the Upper West Side, which is generally not
knowing um for its you know restaurant, uh you know life.

(37:19):
It was called Pica Lene, and Pica Len had the
one outstanding cheese expert in New York at that time,
who I think became the dean and mentor. As other
restaurants began to develop, and they would have like fifty
or hundred different types of cheeses. He would come over.
He had a story for everyone. And I went there
for um was my daughter's or friend's birthday dinner or
something like that. And and and we ordered the big

(37:40):
cheese sampling at the end, but we were so full
that we just we couldn't eat it. So I took
the I took the whole cheese selection home, you know,
like in a takeaway bag and put in the fridge
for a couple of days. And then on that Saturday,
a couple of days later, uh, my partner was with me,
and she and I we decided we were going to
do mushrooms together. It's likechedelic mushrooms, right, And so I

(38:05):
took the cheese out of the fridge, you know, just
thinking we might want it in the evening. We wanted
to warm up. And so we had a wonderful mushroom
trip that day, that afternoon. And as we're coming down
and as this appetite slowly starts to develop, and you know,
because it takes a while after mushroom experience before you
really want to eat again, right, you bring to click
over your taste buds, and I'll tell you started to

(38:27):
dig into that cheese and I mean, it's like it is.
It is head and shoulders of any of the culinary
experience in my life. It's like the blue cheese is
it was like one thousand things going off in my
brain and in my mouth. I mean, I'm tasting every
little and it just tasted like this living explosion of
the spectacular taste in my mouth, and it was it

(38:47):
was remarkable. Now I'm curious, what's your experience with cooking
with with with mushrooms and are you noticing that have
you heard a story like mine from other people with
mushrooms as well? I mean, yeah, so anytime that I
do mushrooms, I'm very intentional about what I'm gonna eat afterwards.
And I think that this all kind of plays into

(39:09):
that heightened sense, like those brain receptors just being activated
from even THHD and psilocybin. I mean, I've also had
the same experience from LSD after I've come out into
this space, and it's like the food that I taste
is like the garden of the gods. It's like, what
is this? It is so amazing and it could have

(39:32):
been the most simple thing, but I'm like, this mango,
you gotta be kidding me. Where do we get this
mango from Whole Food? No way, Like you know, like
this it's better than what I ever expected. And so
I mean cooking with mushrooms is a little bit different,
especially if it's um psychoactive mushrooms. Then there's like a

(39:53):
lot of different things that I don't do when I'm
you know, kind of bringing those two things together in
the food world, be because the experience when you're consuming
mushrooms and your tummy, you know, like if you have
certain things paired with it, it may not go over
so well, you know those things. I would not put
dairy with mushrooms upon consumption, but I would do it

(40:19):
hours later. And that like just your experience with the cheese,
it was like wow, that was exceptional. But like if
you gave somebody mushrooms with a grilled cheese sandwich, I
don't know, like it would get with the butter, Like
your stomach would be like wow, this is a bit
much for us for a second. So there are also

(40:40):
like different types of my own set of protocols that
I follow when UM doing things with like psilocybin, like
meaning that I prefer to keep the sugar low. I
prefer to keep the dairy lower none. I prefer to
not have it with things that are extremely spicy. I

(41:01):
prefer to also make sure that there's a balance of
some other adapted genics and some other things for your
for your belly, like ginger, like even you know, making
it into like a little like you know, taking the
mushrooms maybe with some coconut and minos and some ginger
and accelerating the experience through there because it's a softer

(41:25):
landing and your system and you know citrus also using
citrus to accelerate that as well, so you know, essentially
reminding me that, you know, there's a group of friends
for the last few decades who we occasionally get together
and typically do m DMA together there although occasionally mushrooms,
but developed a tradition where at the end of it,
I would go out and I go to the kosher

(41:47):
deli around the corner from my apartment and kosher because
I keep kosher, none of my friends do, and I'd
buy I get a dozen rare hamburgers and we come
back and it was the most travigant experiences. I think
the body was just craving that protein rush or something
with us where the Hamburger was the thing we had.

(42:08):
You know, it was what felt right at that time.
And I think that is important. I mean, like when
you're listening to your body in that way and your
body is saying, hey, hey, why don't you just go
ahead and grab this? Trust me later, and you trust
that process. You know your body is settling into that
space because especially when like any of those classifications m D,

(42:32):
M A, L S D, mushrooms, those things, when your
body is getting propelled into a whole another serotonin space,
and when you're getting back into balancing into planet Earth
and you want to replenish your body, I think it
is important to you know, do what your body is asking.
I'm in the same way after M D M A.

(42:52):
I have a very set protocol of things that I
consume and it's usually the first up is a Green's moothie.
I have to have a smoothie bowl for some reason.
I mean, I don't know what that is. I just
always have a smoothie bowl. But then after that, I
just treat my body really nice, like a really nice
quality piece of fish. And then and then I go

(43:14):
into like like I said, I don't know how everyone
is this intentional with food. But I would like for
them to be like when they're coming in and out
of experiences and just thinking about, hey, how do I
replenish my body to balance? You know, how do I
settle back and entergrate into this the space after being

(43:34):
a little bit gone for a bit, you know what
I mean. Let's take a break here and go to
an ad you have. You know, obviously these famous you

(43:56):
know clients, you know, like Dave Chappelle, who I guess
is in the you know of else someplace else in Ohio. Um,
you know, we're snoop talk. But so when people are
are contracting with you and they're saying we wanted dinner.
I mean, I know you, I've read that you like,
like Asian stuff is among your favorite stuff to cook with.
But do you do you get requests both for types
of food but also for types of cannabis or types

(44:18):
of concentrates or types of things like that? I mean,
how much are you know, as opposed to people just saying, hey,
you know, you know, chef Nikki, do your best and
like give me an Asian thing. Do you get more
specific things or people asking you to want to use
the cannabis out of their own garden or their favorite
you know brand or something like that. No, I don't

(44:38):
ever really get very specific things. I mean most people
pretty much trust me. Uh And I changed a menu,
Like every time I do an event, the menu is different.
I mean, you might have a couple of the same things,
which was just like your fan favorites, but I always
changed the menu and it definitely has a little a
lot Asian influence. I did my culinary studies in Thailand,

(45:01):
some of them, so I you know, I kind of
I settled into that space really well. But it's like
with David's just majority of the time ninety five percent
of the time it's regular food, not infused, because what
I'm doing with him is just as just being his chef.
I'm also feeding the guests that come in the green

(45:23):
room or different types of shows and things like that,
so we don't have people on stage like Blitz so
number one. But when I'm asked to do an infused dinner,
I may get from the talent or the artists, you know,
what they like in general, um, the types of foods
that they do like them what they don't like, and

(45:44):
I'll you know, use that as an influence on the
menu for the evening. The reason why I don't do
weddings is because they have so many requests, so sometimes
I lose my creative abilities. And so I like to
do these type of things because my team and I
we can. We could do all of the bucket list
things that we were like thinking and all the recipes

(46:05):
we wanted to try. So yeah, and when you're serving
as there are a menu like where each dish is
described not just the ingredients, the food ingredients, but also
the th HC and CBD levels. Yes, so the menu
is is written out to be exact what's in the ingredients, Um,
how much th HC, how much cbd? And then whether

(46:27):
there's vegan options, vegetarian things like that, so gluten free.
I still take into consideration dietary restrictions, so I'll always
have you know, plan A and B or option one
and two. But typically most of my guests are like,
we can't wait to see what's on the menu. So

(46:50):
you know, um, I know you mentioned earlier that you
had got in your degree in pharmaceutical sciences and that
that helped you, you know, in terms of becoming a
cannabis chef, because there's so science involved in this now.
But I've also heard you know that you also had
a familial background. I sort of opened you up both
to cooking and to cannabis. M Yes, familiar, Yes, I

(47:10):
have milk. I thought you said familiar, but but you
met family. Yeah, yeah, I'm like, yes, I have both
familiar and familiar. So in the beginning, my grandfather was
just his nickname was Doc. And my grandfather to be known,

(47:31):
were born on the same day. We're both scorpios. And
so his experience when he was younger, he used to
take plant medicine, um forged plant medicine and create like
different tinctures and SAPs, and he would sell them to
you know, just whoever would come to him. So he
kind of got the nickname Doc. And when I first

(47:54):
heard it as a kid, it was that, you know,
like he would have guys that have like, you know,
almost like STDs, and then he would make like a
save and he would just sell that to them, and anyway,
it became a hit. So I draw inspo from a
lot of that. I also, you know, started smoking cannabis
pretty young, um, fifteen, and I remember my my experience,

(48:20):
you know, getting older, like an older teenager I would
have that conversation with my dad, and I realized that
as I grew older, that my father was using cannabis
a lot as recovery because he owns a construction company
and so that's a lot of hard work pouring concrete
building you know, houses and stuff like that. And so

(48:42):
I was like, oh, this whole time, I didn't know
what those seeds were. Now that now that I know
and retrospect what those seeds were that I was playing with.
And I took the inspiration of how my family used
it as an actual medicine and how my family used
it to heal themselves, and so I had a different

(49:04):
perspective on it growing up. And so I was like,
you know, I'm not really trying to make like, you know,
I will make a sav or like some sort of tincture,
but I'm really good at food. So how can I
give you the best experience and health and wellness upon
consumption of you know, food items? So yeah, h m hm.

(49:27):
And you basically, I mean born and raised and lived
most of your life in Ohio. M Yeah, I'm from Cincinnati,
Ohio and I went to Ohio State. And um, I'm
literally I mean I live out my suitcase pretty much now.
But I travel, you know, everywhere doing you know, dinners
and talks and panels and things like that. But Ohio

(49:51):
is like my stumping grounds, so I owe a lot
of my grit from to Ohio. I mean, I mean, Nikki,
I'll tell you you're not my first Ohio State grat on.
Just a little while back, I had on a young
woman named Kat Packer. Oh yeah, I know Cat. You
know Cat, and you know Greece from Ohio State and

(50:13):
just spent the last five years trying to regulate marijuana,
you know, in Los Angeles, the point person in the city.
There's some nice connections. I mean, I admire Cat for
what she's done for sure, and what she's been trying
to do. And I know is she's had a tough time.
Her and I have never met personally, but I respect

(50:33):
the hell out of her because, um, she has a
very tough job. That is a tough ask job, because
you have a lot of people on both sides and
she's in the middle, and she's got people barking down
her net. It's hard, it's very hard. And she stepped in.
I think she was twenty six years old when she
took on the job, and I think and then she
did it for five years. I think she's just announce

(50:54):
she's stepping down after five years. But I mean, sometimes
I talk to people, you know, who have said a
bad experience with cannabis, and they're younger, and they're kind
of wary that you know, they got paranoid or they
got this, or that are very anxious. Typically that first
experience happened when they were in a social situation where
they had to kind of be on with people they
didn't know or feel comfortable with. And I'll say, you know,
the really thing to try to do is if you

(51:15):
do want to try it again, try to do it
in a place you know, preferably just one person you're
really close with it, maybe outdoors and and trying to
be in a very calm environment. But what I'm wondering
specifically on the culinary aspect is I wonder if for
people who have had a bad experience smoking it and
are wary of that element and so therefore they're staying

(51:36):
away from it, I wonder if for them doing it
in the food way, the way that you're doing might
be a safer, easier way to enjoy cannabis on occasion. Yeah,
you're very correct. It is a safer way to joy
enjoy cannabis on occasion, and people's bodies respond differently. So

(51:57):
I have people that come to my events and have
people that I speak with that cannot smoke, and so
they prefer to use any non combustible forms of cannabis,
which means whether it's consuming it by mouth or like
trans normal or things like that, and they fare better

(52:17):
in that space. And then I have some people who
can smoke a house down, but an edible or if
five to ten milligrams, they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, this
is I can't handle this, you know. So I do
take in a consideration, Um, you know where you're at
with your cannabis journey, and like I said, try to

(52:39):
give you a like a middle ground. But like I said,
I do think that it is a much more like
agreeable thing. Like as far as demographics are concerned, women,
do you prefer to consume cannabis by mouth? Usually it's
a lot more like I don't know, it's you don't

(52:59):
some like we uh, it's a little bit more discreet,
and you know, you can have something in your person
just take a little nibble and get on with your day.
And so I do get a lot of feedback that
they love this because you know, you can have these
experiences with like why there's like cannabis wine, their champagne.

(53:21):
There's all these cool things that we have now that
can make you know, you feel fancy for that moment.
So yeah, years ago I was in Barcelona and I
landed up going to some interesting bar political scene and
it was you know, I thought it was just going
to be a kind of kind of cannabis coffee shop.

(53:42):
That turned out there were actually people using heroin there
and things like that. So I ended up sitting down
having dinner with a number of people who actually, you know,
we're actually not just smoking cannabis using heroin. Um, but
not not me, but they were. And then there was
a bottle on the table of cannabis infused absence and
I reached for the bottle and was about to take some,

(54:05):
and a whole bunch of people at the table, including
the guys doing heroin, said ethan, be careful with that stuff.
That packs of punch, you know of alcohol as stra
as a strong alcohol with cannabis can do something. Well,
let me ask you this. I mean, obviously there's this
booming world of you know, cannabis chefs, and there's the

(54:25):
cannabis edibles world and all of this sort of stuff.
Are there trends in this world the same way there
are in fine dining? Um, I'm still thinking about that story.
You just okay, if you want to comment on that,
go for it. I was like, I was trying to
like gather and you were saying I was like, okay,
we got I'm doing a checklist cannabis, heroin absence. I

(54:49):
was likest here, you know, my my, my world crosses
a lot of drugs and a lot of different story
I was. I was down for the story. I was
just trying to like start like the consumption and how
that feels. It's like, I don't know how that goes, um,
But anyway, so um trends as far as cannabis and culinary.

(55:11):
Some people get into the cannabis face and then just
they'll say like I'm a cannabis chef, and I'm like, okay,
well if I take chef off of it, can you
still go toe to toe with us in the kitchen?
Or or you end confection or you end pastry. There's
so many different like segments of like where you can

(55:31):
go in this world of cannabis. But typically it starts
with the actual chef converting into this space. Sometimes it's
backwards where you are in the space and you become
a chef or you try to kind of like create
these experiences. So as far as trends are concerned, you know,

(55:51):
there's not like a whole lot of them. I see
a lot of people kind of like barrel themselves in
very specific genres like pastry and confection, which is your
gummies and which is like cookies, and you know, like
all those type of things, candies and maybe some finer pastries.
There's a company that I like called Hervey and it's Macarons,

(56:16):
so you have Parisian style macrons. And then as far
as chefs are concerned, I think chefs are just doing
their chef thing, you know what I mean. So you're
pretty much start sticking in the same aesthetic you've been
cooking in and you're just adding that ingredient. So yeah,
I think that's pretty much where we're we're at as
far as the trends, I mean, a lot of us

(56:36):
are trying to do really cool things like and bringing
this same types of restaurant experiences to you, but with
cannabis and not just you know, something simple like cheeseburger.
You know what I mean. It's not saying that's that's
not good, but you are paying for an experience. I'm
gonna give you that. So so I'm curious. I mean,

(56:57):
so you have this bigger, growing world. And when I
was doing the pre operation for this episode here, you know,
I look back, like the New York Times had a
piece about cannabis chefs, you know, back seven eight years ago.
Then I came across somebody at Mindy Seagull who they said,
I think was the first chef who had won one
of those you know, prestigious James Beard Awards for for

(57:17):
culinary uh you know, accomplishment based in Chicago. She was like,
I guess the first moving into the cannabis space. So,
so this this growing world, and I wonder, I mean,
you're obviously part of it. What's it like? I mean,
the elements of collaboration, competition, identifying your niches, um, you know,
other other gatherings or conferences as yet for people cooking

(57:37):
with cannabis. No, there's there's nothing. Honestly, now there's nothing,
I mean, but it's starting. It's starting. Um. It was
really in getting like the world to notice that this
is a thing. Of course, at some point I felt
like James Beard may want to introduce a category or

(58:00):
real category where they you know, literally gauge all of
the chefs um that are doing in anything in cannabis.
There's not a convention or a meeting of the mind.
At some point I would like to be able to
introduce like regulatory things, meaning like certifications, because not everyone

(58:21):
understands how to properly dose, and you can really mess
the one up pretty quickly if you're not you know,
a little bit of knowledge and an education and some
tender love and care and there. If you don't, you know,
realize what you're doing, you can really push somebody over
the top. And so like myself and there, I'm sure

(58:43):
there's some other chefs who are wanting to see that.
And the more and more we do things like podcasts
and interviews. I just recently was reached out to by Bonappetite,
so they're covering me for four twenty. But that's a
step and a whole different action because before mainstream media
like they may have touched on it, but it wasn't

(59:05):
a thing. You know, most of our recognition came from
cannabis media or other types of you know, plant medicine media.
But I remember a couple of years ago, Forbes ran
my Thanksgiving recipes and and Forbes for all all cannabis

(59:26):
and fused it was like all quarantine Thanksgiving, and that
was like, oh, well, this is something because like this
is not the stone or demographic, and that's really hard
for us to break through that. You know, like the
older lady who has just retired and this walking her
dog in the park, that park that has joint pain

(59:49):
may not realize this is an option for her. Or
you know, the young college student who you know as
an athlete and doesn't want to take you know, narcotics
for their pain. This is an option for them. So
we have you know, a lot of different people we
still have to reach too. And I think once we
break that that plane, we'll have a lot more notoriety

(01:00:14):
in being considered as like this is actually a career
that is helping someone not just getting high, but also
helping them be well mm hmmmmm. You know I have
to ask you about one other type of food, which
is one of my favorites, which is sushi, you know,
and it's it's anything. There's a Japanese restaurant I go

(01:00:34):
to in um San Francisco, and the guy who runs
it a Japanese American guy. He's actually one of the
few people I know who is basically consumed consuming a
thousand milligrams of THHC a day while leading a very
active life. He's just built up a very high tolerance.
And and you know, a friend and I arranged for
him actually to do a cannabis infused sushi dinner. But

(01:00:56):
has this really started to show up in the sushi
world at all. Yeah, I've had infused sushi. I did
a collab with a sushi um a restaurant and we
did infuse sushi, and I mean, yeah, it's great. There's
there's a couple of different ways you can infuse sushi,
depending on what types of like delivery methods. But if

(01:01:18):
it's and the rice, you can use a isolate, which
is more of a powder th HC substance that will
disintegrate into the rice. Of course, you can put it
in dipping sauces. But to actually infuse the sushi and
also you can use it in the vinegar um that

(01:01:39):
you'll use like the rice vinegar, anything that she would
used to cure thy to know, the salmon anything like that.
Yeah m hm. So you know, I'm just thinking, like
in terms of you're saying you're on the road all
the time, You're also saying you're a mom, and I'm wondering,
you know, you know, in terms of what lies ahead?
I mean, is there going to be a cookbook or
a TV show? Are you to be branding? Even more broadly?

(01:02:02):
So what lies ahead for you? You thinking what's your
vision of yourself for the next five, ten, twenty years.
I am working on a book right now, and it's
gonna be a very interesting book of a collection of
memoirs like stories, UM recipes and quite a bit of
science and into breaking down you know, how to use

(01:02:23):
these things safely and referring back to them when you,
you know, do the recipes in your kitchen. The hind
Affair is still gonna be on tour, so you'll still
be able to catch us and UM most recreational and
medical markets and some decriminalized markets. UM we are doing

(01:02:43):
our first international event, so UM South Africa is just
recently recently become legal and so we got an ask
from a team there in a group to come to
the high in affair in South Africa and too potentially
launch a product and just kind of help them. We

(01:03:04):
get a lot of asks from different places. My team
and I we go to different countries and we talked
to different folks and individuals about how to regulate edibles
and how to um, you know, introduce this to your
country as a legal form, because some places legalize edibles
and noncombustible things first, like THH C and CBD tinctures.

(01:03:27):
So we're doing a lot with you know, kind of
expanding into a global space. Okay, don't hesitate to reach
out to me connections to any place around the world,
because I'm sort of wired into that world everywhere. Really,
who's trying to integrate drug policy reform and cannabis reform
with greater issues around social justice? Yeah, I said, I

(01:03:49):
I think what you're doing is absolutely amazing. My mouth
is absolutely watering right now. I mean, and I can't
wait till the day comes when I can actually uh
partake of one of your dinners. Any plan is to
be in New York in, so I actually do that
was the part I was going to finish that. So
I'll be coming to New York. Um I should be

(01:04:09):
there for twenty and so I will clue you in
and send you the invitation for that. Uh huh. So
I'll be there. We're gonna be doing a lot more
stuff in New York. Um. I also work with we
Mats a lot, and so we're like one of their
strategic partners when it comes to like certain types of events,
and they kind of helped me out with a lot

(01:04:30):
of things. So we're gonna be doing more stuff in
New York. So I'll be excited about that. And probably
around third fourth quarter of this year with the rollout
in the launch of Chef NICKI products will be and dispensaries.
So that's coming. Yeah. Sounds fantastic. Sounds like your honor
Roll doing great stuff, putting out a lot of positive

(01:04:51):
food and energy and healing in the world. So listen.
Thank you ever so much for joining me on Psychoactive.
Of course, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it,
or you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts.
Or wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear

(01:05:12):
from our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories,
comments and ideas, then leave us a message at one
eight three three seven seven nine sixty that's eight three
three psycho zero, or you can email us at Psychoactive
at protozoa dot com or find me on Twitter at
Ethan natal Man. You can also find contact information in

(01:05:35):
our show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart
Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman.
It's produced by Noham Osband and Josh Stain. The executive
producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren
Aronovsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from
my Heart Radio and me Ethan Naedelman. Our music is

(01:05:59):
by Ari blues he In and Especial Things to v Bio,
s F Bianca Grimshaw and Robert bb. Next week, I'll

(01:06:19):
be talking with perhaps the world's leading historian of psychoactive drugs,
Mike j about his most recent book, mescal In, A
Global History of the first psychedelic Everybody Knew that mescaline
was listening, that came out of this cactus that had
this backstory that's to do with American Indians and so forth.
Once it becomes a white powder and a little viole

(01:06:42):
on a shelf, people forget the backstory. So people forgot
that mescaline came from peyote. It became a substance in
its own right. Something the same happens with cocaine. In
the nineteenth century. The first coca wines and coca products
are all branded with pictures of incas and conquistor doors
and things, reminding us that this comes from a plant
in South America. Once cocaine is isolated, it just becomes

(01:07:06):
like white tablets, similar what they're called a pure white drug,
you know, a product of modern science and changes its identity.
And so from that point on, mescaline has its own
distinctive Western identity that separates itself from its indigenous tradition.
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