Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production
of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the
show where we talk about all things drugs. But any
views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media,
Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed as
(00:23):
an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not
even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show
should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use
any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today we're gonna
(00:45):
revisit the issue of I Begain. I begain the extraordinary
psychedelic substance from the emergence from the Aboga plant in Gabone.
We did talk about this about a year ago on
the episode with the Nitri Mugianis. But I wanted to
come back to this and I asked around who should
I have as a guest And the name that kept
(01:06):
popping up is Hattie Wells. Hattie lives in the UK.
She's been a psychedelic practitioner UM for many years. She's
an ethnobotanist. She's also been involved in drug policy reform.
She's got over twenty years experience researching and working with
psychedelic She's been an ib GAIN treatment provider in the
(01:28):
UK for several years now, and she's also working on
a couple of clinical trials, one involving I Began, the
other one about a drug called five M e O
d MT which we've not yet really gotten into on
psychoact yet. And she's worked for a TRANSFORM, which is
the UK based drug policy form organization, and for the
(01:49):
Beckley Foundation headed by Amanda Fielding, and also now working
for ice EARS, which is one of the leading organizations
in the world involved in re arch on psychedelics and advocacy.
It's been the host of the World Ayahuasca Congress, and
I guess I should finally say that she's a director
of the Breaking Convention, which is the UK's largest convention
(02:12):
on psycholic consciousness. So had do you. Thank you so
much for joining me and my listeners today on Psychoactive.
Hi Ethan, thank you so much for inviting me. Okay, well,
let's start off by just talking about the basics of
I be Gaine, and I'll be quite frank with our audience.
I've always been scared of iby Gain. I mean, I've
(02:33):
tried many of the psychedelics, even those that are reputation
for causing to throw up or things like that, But
but I began, you know, it just seems bigger and
batter and maybe more powerful in its therapeutic value. I
know that some people will do it at lower doses
for kind of self exploration and spiritual insight, but it's
(02:54):
most famous for its use in the treatment of addiction
and use at higher doses. What do we know among
the thousands or tens of thousands of reports of people
having done this, about the variety and commonality among experience
with with high dose I begain in terms of treating addiction. Okay,
(03:15):
So even it's interesting that you think of it as
the kind of bigger, badder psychedelic because actually, as far
as psychedelics go, it's a relatively benign and the agin
in terms of its um in terms of its strength
of kind of visionary experience. So the experience itself is
characterized by what people terms sort of waking dreams, internal visions,
(03:38):
but most of that is with eyes closed. So it's
actually quite easy to pull yourself out of it. And
you know, if you don't like what you're seeing. To
open your eyes and you know, you don't have the
kind of pronounced ego dissolution or dismemberment or typical sort
of peak or mystical experience that you might have on
(03:58):
other psychedelics. So in that respect, you know, it's perhaps
not as daunting as people have people tend to think
or have made out. But obviously the length of the experience,
you know, is is for most people somewhat daunting because
it does last, you know, depending on the dose you take.
But if we're talking about kind of flood dose or saturation,
(04:19):
does the higher end, which is anything really above twelve
milligrams peculogram to twenty milligrams peculiar gram that people don't
tend to go that high anymore, but that um that
can last anywhere from sort of twenty four thirty six
forty eight hours really, So that is the piece that
I think, you know, might make Ibergain seem somewhat daunting.
(04:43):
You are sort of immobilized, so you'll be lying down
on a bed for at least at least sort of
sixteen eighteen hours without moving, and you can't move, and
that that is definitely an intense experience, and many people purge,
many people do vomit it, but that's not you know,
that's not guaranteed. Some people don't. Some people will go
(05:05):
through without vomiting, without any kind of purging. I mean,
in terms of needing diapers, I don't, you know, that's
not something that's not something that I've experienced. Most people
can get up and walk to the toilet if they
need to go to the toilet, with a bit of assistance, obviously,
with a bit of assistance, because your balance is definitely affected.
(05:26):
Balance and movement is dramatically affected. So you might think
that you put your leg in one place, but actually
you're putting it in a different place. Your your whole
sense of where you're placing things changes dramatically. And then
I've heard it also described as like acid times a million.
I mean, is that bullshit? Or it really depends which
lens you're looking at it through. Well, that's what I
(05:46):
was trying to say earlier. You know, I would say
that's that's that's not anything that I've seen or experienced personally.
You know, acid, your visuals can be completely overwhelming to
the extent that you you know, especially high dose of
acid that you can't see anything in the room and
everything's melting. You would never get that kind of experience
on I Begain, you know, your typical eyebergain experience, although
(06:08):
this does probably only happen for half of people, but
you know, the experience we talk about is one of
a sort of vivid memory recall for the first six
to eight hours, a kind of life flashback, as if
you're watching your life, you know, on a movie screen
or a sort of movie reel, but you're watching it
from an objective point of view. You're not emotionally involved
(06:29):
or triggered by that experience. There is some sort of detachment,
whereas if you were experiencing those kind of visions on
LST or any other kind of classic psychedelic you would
be very emotionally involved in that living of those visuals.
And that's one of the most common traits of the
hy doc Ibergin experience them sort of memory recall in
a kind of detect sort of way. Yeah, So the
(06:51):
high do cybergain experience tends to happen in sort of
three phases, So you'll have your first kind of you know,
six to ten hours, let's say, where it's that kind
of thing it's internal visions, waking dream They might be
thoughts or stories that are that are you know, depending
on how visually oriented you are. They may be visual,
they may not, They may just be thoughts. But it
(07:12):
can be kind of life flashback memory, recall, reliving events,
understanding the pattern of events, understanding why something happened the
way it did, and having some sense of um kind
of objectivity around it which helps, which can help you
to see things in a different way. That period can
also be accompanied by very vivid hallucinations, but that is
(07:34):
in the minority of people. So for myself personally, I
did have three D hallucinations more real than anything I've
had with any other psychedelic, but I am I am
in a real minority, like I don't know many other
people that have had that experience, but but it can happen.
You can have very vivid hallucinations, and then the next
phase is a is a period of deep introspection, and
(07:56):
that's the phase that I think gives I begin a
unique character, really sort of sets it apart from all
the other psychedelics that we're currently working with and researching.
And that after you've had this visual sort of peak experience,
you then have this long contemplative, introspective, reflective period where
(08:17):
you're definitely still under the effect. You know what, for me,
this period is the bit where you could engage in
more psycholitic therapy. I think we might get to that
point at some you know, in some stage where that
would be where interesting therapeutic discussions could take place. And
then you get another the third phase, which is kind
of the residual, where you're still you still might be
stimulated because obviously it's a stimulant and it's very hard
(08:40):
to sleep on ib again, so you might feel kind
of wired. And for people experiencing addiction or substance used
to sort of they that third phase tends to be
kind of jangly. They don't feel that great because it's
difficult to relax. But you know, that bat phase can
also be quite useful for introspection. Just to be a
but they're all a bit of a skeptic here, you know.
(09:01):
Sometimes you hear this debate, like when people take I
don't know if it's ayahuasca or some other psychedelic plants
substance in you know, from South America. The frequency of
seeing the jaguar, for example, and the question becomes, this
just happens spontaneously even among people have never heard of
the association of the psychedelic with the jaguar, or is
it somehow kind of implanted in the culture. And with
(09:24):
respect to this memory recall, I mean, people are obviously
told beforehand that this is what they might expect. Does
that precondition them, you think, to have this type of
detached kind of memory recall experience or is it something
just you know, even if people are not prepped to
know that that it's going to be happening anyway, It's
(09:44):
a very interesting question, and I think it's difficult to
determine because no one's really looked at that, although actually
I did here recently that there has been a study
with other psychedelics looking at that how how the prompts
before the experience affect the experience, and that they clearly do.
I mean, you would imagine that if you're told X
and why is going to happen, that it's more likely
(10:05):
that X and why happens, right, And like I said earlier,
you know, this vivid memory recal doesn't happen with everybody.
But I think there's also distinction to be made between
people using this for addiction, you know, to interrupt their addiction,
or people using this for self development, spiritual purposes, curiosity,
(10:26):
because the experience differs quite you know, it's quite a
pronounced difference between those groups of people. And often, especially
if you're you know, you're an opioid user, the psychedelic
effects are somewhat blunted, you know, so the visual component
and that memory recal might be blunted. Mhm. And in
(10:47):
terms of I mean just speaking, I don't know if
this has really been measured in studies as yet, but
you're a subjective experience. As a treatment provider. Does a
strong memory recall Does that associate with better outcomes for
people in terms of dealing with their addiction issues? Or
can people have just as good outcomes with just as
great frequency if they don't go through the memory recall element. Yes,
(11:09):
so in my experience, I would say that it does.
You know that that what I was kind of describing
as the archetypal trip, the memory recall, the introspection. You know,
those three phases um tended to the stronger, the sort
of visionary experience tended to have better long term effects.
But you know that's just in my observation of maybe
(11:32):
sixty seventy people that I facilitated sessions for and I'm
not aware of it. You know, no one's actually looked
at that properly because there's obviously a lack of clinical studies,
right right, And so I'm just I mean, I imagine
among our listeners just going to be some who are
curious about whether or not they should take it, either
(11:53):
for spiritual insight or for a dealing with addiction. I
imagine there's even more who have a friend or real
NATIV who's struggling with addiction and they want to know
if this might be helpful, And a lot of others
are just curious about, you know, how this is similar
different to the other ones. So just to kind of
take us through some of the process and maybe in
(12:15):
terms of the treatments that you've provided, Um, what's the product?
I mean, first of all, how do people you know,
you know come into contact with you? And then what
sorts of clearance do you have to do so that
some people are probably told that they're not eligible to
do this, and then how is it consumed the setting?
Just walk us through all that, Okay, so let's just
(12:37):
be clear. So I'm not providing ibergaine treatments in an
informal way anymore. I'm just working on a clinical trial.
So you know, there's there's various routes you can take
to experiencing iyebergaine, So there would obviously be the clinical
trial angle, but there's only a couple of countries where
that's happening, so that's fairly limited at the moment. You know,
(12:58):
it's absolutely usual to find an eyebgain provider where there
is some sort of medical supervision or assistance because i
begain does have cardiac implications and there are risks associated,
so it's really important that you're with a provider who
understands those risks and who can manage them should they
(13:19):
occur um because there's you know, there's there's over a
hundred clinics around the world, and some of them are
medically supervised and some are not, and then there's probably
tens more of just individuals offering treatments in an informal way.
So it's really important to be clear about the cardiac
risks and so that you go in informed about them
(13:40):
and looking for an appropriate practitioner. But let's say your
practitioner is informed about this has medical supervision is going
to monitor your vital science, is going to insist that
you have an ECG prior to the experience. Um, I
mean preferably that you're monitored with an ECG throughout the experience.
But that's quite rare these days, but I would definitely
(14:01):
recommend looking for that. So you want to check your heart,
and you want to check your liver function really, and
you want to check your electrolyte balance. So they're the
kind of main safety sort of checks. And what's the
importance of the liver function one? Well, just you know,
to see how your liver is functioning, because obviously your
(14:22):
liver function will determine how you metabolize the drug, and
poor metabolizes, you know, then there's an extra risk of
spike levels of of I beginning or I begin having
a greater effect on your heart. Really, so you want
to be carefully mentioned nor I begin So maybe we
should just interject your Is that what I begain becomes
(14:42):
in the body once it's consumed or is it? Ye? Yeah,
so I begain it's converted to nor I begain. It's
it's it's metabolite, but it lasts much longer in the
body and levels of both of them have different implications
on cardiac risks UM, so you need to get checked out.
I mean, ideally you wouldn't have a history of cardiac
(15:03):
problems in your family. UM, you would you know, not
have a history of any psychosis. You wouldn't want to
be well. Again, different providers are different with this, but
there's certain medications that you'd want to avoid taking. So
if you were on them, you'd need to taper off
them and have some assistance tapering off them because some
(15:26):
drugs will interact negatively with ibergaine. But when you say
about interactions, is it like with SR eyes where I
think with Ayahuaska you're not supposed to be You're not
supposed to be using that. What can you say? So, yeah,
S s R E s Ideally, I mean like if
I was working, I would want people to come off
their S S R eyes. The risk of I begin with,
for your heart is that it can cause something called
(15:47):
QT prolongation, which is basically elongating the wave between your
queue and your tea waves on your e c G.
And that's really about heart contracting and relax xing. So
it can lead to kind of an abnormal heart rhythm,
which can lead to a fatality. So if you're on
any other drug that is also prolonging your QT intervals,
(16:11):
then you would want to you would want to come
off them because that plus the iber gains prolongation could
cause a significant risk. You just want to eliminate that risk.
So there's a variety of drugs, antihistamines, antipsychotics, antidepressants. Some
providers will work with with people on those drugs, but
(16:31):
taking all the right precautions like monitoring on any CG
the whole way through UM, you know, having assistance at
hand should there be any problems. But that's why you
need the medical supervision really. And then so aside the
kind of medical exclusion, you know, various reasons for medic
for exclusion. You would also want to do some significant
(16:53):
preparation and just to get yourself well informed about iber
gain and the risks you would be taking and the
potential experience you would be having. So any provider would
would do some psych education, which is just giving you
all that information beforehand, and then you know, ideally and
maybe have two or three prep sessions. You'd get to
(17:14):
know your provider. You'd want to you'd want to establish
really good rapport. You'd need to feel safe with that
person because they're obviously going to be holding space for
you during a long and potentially intense experience, and then
ensure that they will also offer you some integration after
the experience, because you know, this is something that we're
all talking about in psychedelic therapy. The need for integration
(17:38):
um not only to be able to integrate a potentially
difficult experience, but also to harvest the lessons and insights
that you get from from you know, less challenging experience,
just to help you kind of land again and move
forward with the insights that you've got. We haven't really
honed a kind of standard method, and everyone has their
(17:58):
own way of doing this, but I think it's really important.
This is one of the reasons that I sort of
stepped away from I began treatment years ago was the
fact that people would come and have this very profound experience,
but if there hadn't been enough preparation or integration, which
often is a cost issue people just simply can't afford it.
Then you know that I bega intense to unearth various
(18:20):
issues in your life that you've been struggling with and
if you go back into your same environment, then you're
walking back in and you know you're going to experience
various various triggers again. And if there isn't the appropriate integration,
you're very likely to just sort of fall back into
old patterns, and that may be addiction. If you've come
(18:40):
for addiction interruption. We'll be talking more after we hear
this add It's not just about the immediate, you know,
(19:03):
coming down from the day after. What we're really talking
about for many people sustained period of time, like going
to see a psychotherapist or saying like that you're on
a weekly basis or a monthly basis, or you know,
checking in leading up to it. Then in terms of uh,
I mean people are obviously using ib gain for a
variety of addictions, as the opioid one, which I think
(19:23):
is the one that's most known for, but also alcohol
or stimulants, cocaine, maybe the nicotine. What's the recommendation in
terms of abstaining from any of those drugs before the
i BE GAIN treatment for how long, how necessary it is,
how much does it vary whether it's a stimulant or
an opioid for example. I mean, so again this varies
(19:45):
from treatment provider to treatment provider, and some people are
much bolder and more allowing of continuing your drug of choice.
And it also depends on whether you're going for a
flood dose or a slow dose protocol. But let's kind
of maybe the easiest way of explaining it would be
to take, you know, to take some examples, so you know,
you would basically look at the half life of your
(20:06):
drug of choice and you would want to give at
least that time period before you take the IEB again.
Ideally you'd want to leave twenty four hours really from
your last dose to your eye again. Now, in terms
of alcohol, actually I never worked with anyone with an
alcohol disorder, and I know that withdrawal from alcohol is
(20:29):
a lot more dangerous and it presents with a lot
more issues. And I because I've not done a protocol
with alcohol, I couldn't I couldn't really speak to that.
So let's just eliminate alcohol from this discussion and just
talk about um opioids or stimulants. And with the opioids,
is I mean that people are already if it's methanine
or or heroin, that they're actually in some state of withdrawal.
(20:51):
Often times by the time they take Yeah, so that's
what happens. When they come to take the eye again,
they will the withdrawal symptoms will probably just be presenting.
So the protocol that I used um withdrawal would just
be presenting. I would then administer a testos which is
like one to two milligrams of iber gain, and then
that would that would sort of take the edge of
(21:11):
the withdrawal and it would show us, you know, how
the person responded to the iber gain, and then we
would then do the flood dose after that, so effectively
you don't really enter the withdrawal period. You're just sort
of skirting on the edge of it. M hm hm. Now,
I guess the thing that's really maybe most astounding about
(21:32):
I be Gain, apart from this kind of detached sort
of memory recall, is the fact that it seems to
alleviate or even disappear the withdrawal symptoms that once so
oftentimes associates with opioid withdrawal. And that's that does not
seem to be true of any of the other psychedelics
that are being used in addiction treatment. And so do
(21:53):
we have any understanding as yet about what I mean,
what that's about, What do we know about that, you know,
interruption of the withdrawal. Well, that's kind of the most
astounding thing about iber gain really, and that is how
I mean, that's how we discovered ibor gaine's anti addiction
sort of potential was because Howard lots of in the
(22:14):
sixties um decided to take iber gain in an experimental
way with various friends as a psychedelic experience, and he
happened to be a heroin user, and he realized after
you know, he came down from his iber gain trip
that he hadn't experienced withdrawal and he no longer had
any withdrawal symptoms. And there were seven heroin users among
(22:34):
his twenty friends who were experimenting with it, and they
all experienced the same thing. So there definitely is something
to ib again whereby it dramatically reduces withdrawal symptoms, if
not eliminates them. And in terms of you know, how
that happens, why that happens, we're still not entirely clear.
(22:54):
The pharmacology of ibergaine is still you know, it's a
bit blurry. We've got some idea years of of how
it works and the various neuro transmitter sites that it targets.
But I think as for actually explaining how it stops withdrawal,
I think we're still somewhat in the dark mm hmm.
(23:15):
But it's pretty well documented now right across thousands of
people having this almost miraculous absence of I mean, for
people have been addicted to opioids for many years. People
aren't herowing people wanting to you know, who have been
on methodine for a long time and wanted getting off it.
It's um, I mean, it's it's basically it happens for
everybody or almost everybody this this. Uh yeah, I would say,
(23:38):
I would say, I mean, in my own experience, probably
for kind of eighty of people there. You know, there
are a small number especially methodone users. Actually, you know,
long term methodone uses may experience still some withdrawal symptoms,
but they're dramatically reduced. Yeah. Well, actually, maybe this is
(23:58):
a good place to bring up the study that you're
engaged in with icere is right now, right, which is
about you know, kind of innovative approach to try and
to help people who want to get off method I mean,
obviously for many people or our method and it can
be a lifelong medication. It can be very successful, but
there are many people, for one reason or another, who
do want to get off it. What can you say
about that study that you're currently engaged in. Okay, so
(24:20):
I'm not actually currently engaged with the i as methodone study.
I have done some consultancy with I See is, but
I'm actually working with the Demo rex I Begin study,
which will be working with opioid us as well. We're
still in the healthy volunteer phase, but I can I
can definitely discussed the ICE study a bit. Although they
haven't published their results yet, they've got twenty methodone users
(24:44):
and they are using a slow dose protocol, which is
just worth talking about now because there's I think I've
mainly been talking about this sort of flood saturation dose,
which is what I worked with, you know, almost twenty
years ago, but now people are are moving away from
that because of the cardiac implications and because of the
deaths that have occurred. There is a move, I would say,
towards this slower dose protocol, which is using I begain
(25:08):
in a way to kind of taper down your opioid use.
So the I See his study I think gives six doses.
It split the group into two groups, and each group
receives a dose of iber gain one that one group
gets six doses of a hundred milligrams and the other
gets an ascending dose, so hundred milligrams then two hundred,
(25:30):
three hundred, six eight hundred. I can't remember how it goes,
but they have six doses of an escalating dose, and
with each of those doses, they reduce their methodone use
by half, so they're effectively tapering down their methodone and
also being administered I began at the same time, which
(25:50):
you know, supposedly will eliminate the withdrawal symptoms and sort
of flood the system over a number of days with
iber gain instead of that immediate flood dose, which potentially
has more risks. Mhm. And these are generally people have
been fairly stabilized our method on when yeah, yeah, they've
(26:12):
been on a method and program and I think, you know,
I think I can say they haven't had yeah, they
haven't had any adverse events yet, no hospitalized, but no
serious adverse events in the hospitalization yet. So and I
hear they have very promising results, but it's not published yet. Okay,
and what about the study that you're engaged in the UK.
So this is a single dose study. Um it's a
(26:33):
Phase one and Phase two A studies, So it's currently
unhealthy volunteers and there's four cohorts. So each group will
receive first group three milligrams, next group the three milligrams peculogram,
next group six milligrams pekulogram, next group nine milligrams pekulogram,
and if all of them have been safe and tolerated,
(26:56):
then it'll move up to twelve milligrams pekulogram, which is
ki of the target dose of a number of clinics
around the world. So we're looking at the tolerable tolerability
really and the safety. And there's a lot of um
ACG monitoring and looking at the QT intervals throughout the
experience to see you see pro kilogram you mean of
(27:16):
their own body weight. So in other words, the assumption
is that there's reason to believe that the dose should
be a reflection of somebody's body weight. Yes, exactly, Why
is that? Well, because I mean, I guess with lots
of mental health drugs, psychiatric drugs, they do that they
dose according to body weight because each person will will
(27:38):
respond in a different way according to a body weight.
I know with the other classic psychedelics they don't do
that so much, but I think um with lots of
psychiatric drugs they do m So Phase two will then
move on to we'll look at the best the sort
of maximum tolerated dose and the sort of ideal target dose,
(27:59):
and then move on to phase two offering that dose
to opioid dependent individuals and then assess again safety, toleer ability,
and efficacy. So this this first co this first study.
Phase one is thirty participants and then hopefully they'll be
eighty participants among opioid users. So this is really the
(28:22):
first well, I mean there's obviously the i c IS
study going on, but this is, yeah, this is one
of the first Phase one and phase two going together,
and especially doing all the card monitoring, which is really
crucial I think to getting ibergain licensed. So now let's
(28:42):
go to this world of the clinics. I think you
mentioned the beginning that there's maybe over a hundred that
we know about around the world. I mean they seem
to show up a lot, I think in Mexico and
it's a Costa Rica and sometimes the Caribbean. Um, but
I guess they've also been in the UK and the Netherlands, Canada, etcetera. Um,
what do we know about this network? I mean, are
(29:02):
there are there chains? Off? I begin, clinics where one
person or owner owns a whole bunch of them in
different places. Uh. Does anybody have a kind of list?
Is there a directory of these clinics anywhere? Uh? Does?
Some of them have fantastic reputations, have been around for
many years? What can you tell us? Yeah, I've never
heard about a directory, but that's not a bad idea. Um.
(29:26):
And I've not heard of chains either, But it's possible
that there maybe you know, a clinic and I think
I might have heard that there's you know, some business
that has a couple of clinics in Mexico. But there's Yeah,
there's not chains yet. I mean Universal Eye again, I
think is attempting to do that. So they're working in
(29:46):
Canada and they will be conducting clinical trials in Canada.
But that is their idea is to create sort of
medicalized clinical model and have clinics around the world. So
at the moment, it's more individual clinics with a sort
of cl Susta in Mexico, Costa Rica. Like you said,
more informal treatment providers around Europe, not so much clinics.
(30:08):
There's a clinic in Portugal Tabularrassa UM, and then there's
obviously individual providers as well in Mexico and Canada. There's
also clinics in Canada and South Africa and Brazil. So
in Brazil and Canada and South Africa and New Zealand.
(30:28):
Actually I begains been put on the kind of prescription
drug list, which means doctors can prescribe it, so it
can Yeah, it can be prescribed in a clinic, so
there are obviously that's an easier legal situation for clinics
to develop in. And then in Mexico there are a
number of clinics and they get licensed as rehab clinics.
(30:49):
Really not licensed for I begain news because I begins
not a licensed medicine in Mexico. But um, it's not regulated.
So there are places where like government, some kind of
regulatory officials are actually checking up on these things or
where they need to look at the whole protocol and
give their approval. Yeah, and they're definitely the authorities, local
authorities are aware of what the clinics are doing in
(31:10):
these places. And these are all either places whether they're
on the prescription drug list or where it's unregulated. It's
not scheduled drugs. Obviously, in the US I began as
a Schedule one drug. No one would get away of
doing anything like that there. In the UK we have
the Psychoactive Substance Act, which means that it's legal. It
would be legal to consume um ibergain or a boger,
(31:31):
but not legal to administer. So clinics are definitely not
legal in the UK. And there's no clinics up and
running here. Um. And then you know Holland, there's a
gray area, so shops openly selling iboga and iboga extracts
and providers working. Yeah, So there's and and then there's
(31:51):
other countries in Europe where it's banned like in the
United States, Um, Italy, France, New Zealand. I saw pop up.
Is it legal in New zeal End? Did anything happening there? Well,
so that's the same New Zealand. I think I just included,
but maybe I didn't. New Zealand is the same as
prescription drugs, so you can, yeah, you can legally prescribe.
I began in New Zealand, and there are some clinics there.
(32:14):
There are a couple of clinics there that I know of.
There maybe more. And in terms of the International Drug
Control system, which has banned some of the psychedelics, whereas
I begin in that, so it's not it's not a
scheduled drug in the UN conventions, so that eases things up,
(32:34):
I see, well, but in in individual countries it is,
so it doesn't necessarily use it up. Yeah, right right,
depends it depends where you are. I see, and and um.
And then the Caribbean I saw, in fact, I know
the son of a friend of mine had a successful
I began treatment in the Caribbean. Is it just is
(32:55):
it a bunch of different islands or is the same
kits or so? Debramash had a clinic and KITS so
that that was running for a number of years, and
she published a paper on on the detoxification opioid detoxif
occasional two seventy seven participants I think, and had had
remarkable results. So she's that that's the kind of longest
(33:17):
standing I began clinic license in a way explain to
our to our listeners who are the significance of doctor
Debora Mash in all this. So Debra match is there
is a neuroscientist who has been involved in, you know,
trying to develop ibergain as a treatment for addiction for years,
(33:40):
six years, and she's currently running the study that I'm
working on in London. She managed to get neider back
in the National Institute on Drug Abuse and the States
get Neider backing for phase one studies in ninety four
I think in in the United States and they administered
(34:02):
I think up to two milligrams pekilogram and the study
round for a short while and then terminated. And she
then set up her clinic in St. Kitts and carried
on treating people and doing lots of research on ibergaine
and has really never you know, she's really kind of
never given up bringing this to market and ensuring access
(34:25):
for addicts to this treatment. I met Deborah Mash I
think twenty five years ago when I was lobbying and
trying to raise awareness of iber gaine in the UK,
and we invited her over and took her to lecture
at various places, trying to sort of open the ears
and eyes of various addiction agencies to the potential of
iber gaine and various research operations. But you know, we
(34:46):
didn't get anywhere. And I think it's been a really long,
hard fight. Let's take a break here and go to
an add Most of my encounter with I Begain was
(35:10):
really beginning in the early nineties from the activist side.
I mean you mentioned earlier Howard lots Off, you know,
and Howard's you know experiences a nineteen year old realizing
that I Begain had eliminated the withdrawal symptoms for him
and other friends associated with the heroin addiction. And in fact,
I think in recognition of his work, my organization Drug
(35:31):
Policy Alliance awarded him a big award Charlie before he
died some years ago. But then it was also the
the yippie activist Dana Beale. It was the Israeli fellow
of BoA's Lochtell, who's you know, then starts the Israeli
Greenleaf Party to try to legalize marijuana, but he was
administering lots of treatments. And Bob Cisco, another activist who
(35:51):
in fact just died recently. I just was at his
memorial service in New York a few months ago. But
this set of activists, you know, what was their role
in all and how much were they joined by others
around the world. Well, so we really wouldn't know about
the potential therapeutic potential of iber Game for addiction if
it wasn't for them, if it wasn't for Howard and
(36:14):
normal really you know, trying to spread the word and
raise awareness because of their own experience, but then because
of the experience of others that they administered I be
gain too, or that they you know, showed other addicts
how to help other addicts, and this kind of addict
self help movement grew, and Bob Sisko obviously started up
Eye Cash, the International Coalition Addict Self Help I think
(36:36):
that's right, which was really based in the Netherlands, So
there was a kind of connection between New York and
the Netherlands, Rotterdam specifically. I think this laye network of
people addicts helping addicts really and you know subculture of
(36:56):
iber gain treatment providers, people who had gone through it
themselves and helping other people and so forth. And you know,
they organized conferences, they lobbied government bodies, um Howard lots
of obviously took out a series of patents in the
mid eighties, and you know, managed to have conversations with Neida.
(37:19):
I think it was you know, his meeting with Debora
that that helped kick stock Debra's interest and Deborah's movement
with Ibergine. So really, this, this whole kind of movement
is all thanks to them, and they really deserve to
be massively honored. You know, this area of the for
profit companies which are all you know, there's now obviously many,
(37:40):
many of them, and they're funding university research centers. And
I've read that a TIE, which may be the most
well financed of all of the investors, is looking at
this and that Mine Mead has also been taking a
look all I think they're looking at a synthetic derivative
of I beginning called AT and m C. I know
of some others. But is that where the funding and
(38:01):
the push is coming from now, and what's your thoughts
about all that? Yeah, Yeah, that's definitely where the push
is coming from obviously. Yeah, you've got Demorex and a
TIE they've collaborating on the study in the UK, and
you've got I'm not quite sure who's funding the studies
in Brazil. Actually but yeah, it's it's private money coming
(38:22):
you know, it's corporate money coming in and really mobilizing
these studies and providing the kind of money that's needed
to take these compounds further. I think and obviously I
begain can I mean, I mean, Howard lots of years ago,
decades ago, had these patents about the use of I
began for treatment. Those have now expired, So I imagine
(38:44):
and I began itself cannot be patented I measure at
this time. So at this point, is it about you know,
trying to get patents on the derivatives or on we
talked about before, nor I begain, you know, the basic
substances it comes when it was human body. Yeah, there's
an or I begain, there's derivatives, there's there's treatment protocols
(39:04):
that will probably be technology associated with the treatment that
will be patented. Um. Hey, I'm also full disclosure here.
Um there's another new startup, UM a company called I
Bogus scene. I had Boas Wachtel was in New York
visiting me and he said he's and I'm starting this company. Uh,
(39:24):
you know, you want to be in the advisory boarder.
And I said, well, I guess, so it sounds interesting.
So that thing is just look at you know, launching
now I I bogus scene. But was they're going to
be looking at, I think is less focused on addiction
treatment and looking at treatment of other things. You know,
their their materials say that they want to look at
the using I begaine for dealing with things like gastro
intestinal stuff and autoimmune disease and sleep disorders and maybe cancer,
(39:49):
neurogenitive diseases. And I've heard it talked about visavi Parkinson's
as well. So what do you know about the value
or potential value of I began for treating not just addiction,
but there are types of mental conditions or even these
physical ones. Yes, I did talk to Boas actually and
I did. I am aware of iboga seen and it's
(40:09):
you know, obviously my background's ethnobotany. So it's very interesting
because this is really ethno medicine that they're taking forward,
looking at the traditional use of a boga in its
traditional context in Gobon and medicinal uses they have for
it there, which are this gastro intestinal um issues and
the other ones you mentioned. So I think among treatment providers,
(40:31):
you know, there's been all sorts of anecdotal reports about
the immune boosting effects, you know, even dare I say it,
You know, people are speculating about its potential in low
doses again, in sort of micro doses for COVID and
respiratory conditions. So I think, I think this is kind
of a nascent field, and I'm sure people will start
(40:53):
looking at different applications of it, And personally, I've been
very interested in its potential application for Parkinson's. In fact,
that's kind of what got me back into ibergain after
after a long break from it, because I kind of had,
you know, put down the addiction, not thinking it wasn't
really moving and it wasn't going to get anywhere, and
(41:14):
also my life kind of changed and addiction didn't seem
so you know, sort of present and relevant to me,
and things were kind of stalled in terms of research.
And then I got invited to one of these conferences
by Dana in two thousand and seventeen, and I watched
a man give a presentation on having taken micro doses
(41:34):
of very low doses of iber game for his Parkinson's
and having had remarkable results really in attenuation of symptoms.
And you know, at that time my mother got diagnosed
with Alzheimer's and my stepfather a year later. So I've
been very sort of focused on neurodegenerative conditions and the
potential applications and psychedelics in this area, and I'm watching
(41:58):
very keenly. In fact, when I was working out there
Beckley Foundation, I was really trying to encourage interest in that. Now,
how do you mentioned earlier that you know your life
had changed visa the diction and that was in part
why you're looking in some of these other uses for you?
Was the initial entry into I Begaine as somebody like
Howard Lotsof who used it and found it transformative? Or
(42:21):
did it come about our other ways? Well? So I
I first heard about ibergain I guess in this sort
of mid nineties, but it wasn't until the late nineties
that I got more directly involved. And that was actually
sort of coincidentally. I just got asked to organize a
series of conferences on I Begain. I had been involved
(42:41):
myself with Aowaska. Was much more interested in Ayawaska as
a psychedelic. I had spent several years of researching it
as an anthropology student and participating in rituals and experimenting
with it, and I had found that had really pulled
me out of my UM. I did to kind of
patterns and tendencies so I had had during my teenage
(43:05):
years and kind of early adulthood, consumed a lot of drugs,
been very involved in the drug scene. I'd gone into
it with Aawaska and I've done my work so to
beat with arahuaska to resolve a cocaine and I had
a kind of cocaine and alcohol habit. But I had
witnessed lots of my friends O D. I had lost
several friends from addiction, so addiction was very sort of
(43:26):
prevalent in my life. I'd also had lots of friends
UM have psychotic episodes from various drugs. And so when
I heard about IB again, even though I no longer
you know, was in the kind of midst of any addiction,
substance addiction, UM, I was obviously very interested in how
it could help my friends and how it could help
(43:47):
those around me. When I did take it personally, I
was addicted to tobacco still and it did help me
UM quit my tobacco addiction. But I have to preface
this with you lasted for a year, so I had
I had a good twelve months with no tobacco, and
then I relapsed. Um, and then I carried on smoking
(44:09):
for another I don't know how many years, but then
managed to stop, you know, probably what they used to
other psychedelics. When you think about, you know, compare and
contrast how they're similar, how they're different. Between ayahuasca and
I bow that I began. Um what stands out for
you first in terms of talking about the experience itself. Um,
(44:31):
So the experience itself, I think, you know, they're very distinct.
Obviously I began as much much longer lasting, and like
I said earlier, you know, characterized by this more sort
of memory we called dreamlike visions, whereas ayahuaska, you know,
especially it's sort of strong doses and kind of peak
(44:52):
experience can be much more about ego dissolution and um,
you know, liquefying consciousness, connection with everything around you, oneness
are to change in your sense of appropriate reception, where
your body ends and begins, where you end and begin. Um.
So there's that, there's definitely that difference. You don't have
(45:12):
that going on with the ibergaine. M hmm. Let's see
an in terms of iowaska has also typically done in
a kind of group setting, whereas i begaine is almost
entirely done in a solo setting. Right, Yeah, that's a
massive difference. Yes, so iowaska is usually done, although some
people do do one on one aowaska sessions, but it
(45:33):
is usually done in a group setting in a more
kind of ceremonial setting, although again it boga depending on
whether you take ibergain or a boga, there is a
very elaborate at boga ritual ceremony, group ceremony if you're
following more the tradition of the buety that is again
a community, communal experience, many people, a lot of music, dancing, contact,
(45:57):
you know. Then then then it's so if you go
to the traditional use of a boga, it's more similar
I suppose to the iowaska apart from the fact that
it is used as an initiative, you know, traditionally as
an initiation ritual in high doses or in low doses,
you know, more for the kind of ceremony, prayer, prayers,
not all night vituals that they do as part of
(46:18):
their religion. Yeah, I think I got we got into
this a bit on the episode with Dmitry last year,
because he actually did go to Gabon and was initiated
into the wheety. And I think, you know, when we
were talking earlier, Hetty about the uses for things other
than addiction, right, I think a fair bit of the
awareness of that comes from what was happening with the
wheaty and their use of iboga. Is that right? Yes, definitely,
(46:41):
so Boger has used you know, like I said, like
in large doses for initiation, contact with the ancestors, spiritual guidance, healing,
but in low doses it's used, yeah, for a variety
of illnesses as an ethnic medicine, you know, as a
medicinal herb, you know. I mean. One of the other
issues that keeps emerging more and more now, right is
(47:02):
what are the rights and responsibilities towards indigenous peoples, whether
it's with ayahuasca coming from the Amazon regional Latin America,
whether it's with peyote, and of course with eboga and
the Boti. And there is this Nagoya Protocol, I guess,
the sort of international treaty that many nations are signing
on to UM. But what can you tell us about
(47:24):
that vise the eboga and how it compares to what's
going on with the the other substances. You know, with
this whole issue of kind of indigenous intellectual property rights, UM,
it's in a way sort of easier to pinpoint with
the boga and Equatorial Africa. You know, there's a long
tradition of use, we know the various groups that use it.
(47:47):
So this idea of kind of benefits sharing should theoretically
be more straightforward, although there's no sort of Um, there
are no homogeneous indigenous groups, and there are various groups
using in different ways, and so how you would coordinate
that benefit sharing is going to be somewhat complicated. I'm sure. Um.
(48:07):
There is a group already operating Blessings of the Forest,
headed up by someone called you Non, and they are
trying to ensure benefits sharing and the sustainability of a
boger because obviously, you know it burger is a valuable
natural product in Gabon, and there's a lot of poaching
and wild harvesting of a boger and if there's growing
(48:29):
demand around the world, this is you know, the issue
of sustainability is only going to grow, and so the
Blessings of the forest are very much um interested in
setting up sustainable plantations and working with people to ensure
sustainability and to ensure that um. You know, there's no
illegal export of it Boger out the country, you can't.
(48:54):
I mean, actually it Boger is a national cultural heritage
in Gabon, so it easily eagle to export it. But
there's you know, there's various ways around. That's very interesting,
you know you mentioned earlier, just to switch again, micro docing.
I mean, this has become such a phenomenon, So what
is the story. I mean, there's obviously micro docing, there's
(49:16):
many dozing, there's what you call the flood dozing or
you know, macro dosing. Um is there the micro docing?
What can you tell us about that? Are more and
more people doing it or trying it that way? Well,
I mean microdocing of all substances has become very fashionable, right.
People are microdocing LSD, people are microdocing psilocybin. Definitely, there
is a growing movement of people microdcing ibergaine and IT boger,
(49:38):
and not just for things like Parkinson's and your degenerative conditions,
just for well being, you know, between the thirties and
sixties of French company sold Lamborne, which was effectively a
kind of micro dosive ibergaine as a stimulant and antidepressant
and so um for kind of stimulant effects mood effects. Yeah,
(49:59):
there's definitely growing movement of people micro docing I begain
for that, and then also people micro docing post you know,
let's say they went in for detoxification with eyeber gain,
then a provider might well recommend to do some micro
docing afterwards, so you can have kind of micro docing,
which would be maybe you know, ten to fifty milligrams
(50:21):
of iber gain. Then you can have kind of what
I would call sort of low dose hundred to two
hundred milligrams. Then you might have a booster slightly higher
where you'd have more of an experience, um more kind
of three to four hundred milligrams. There's there's a variety
of dozing protocols basically, but yeah, I think micro dozing
will become more popular, especially if we if we discover
(50:43):
more benefits from it basically and just even anecdotally. I
mean when we talk to say about that intermediate level,
what maybe many dosing for lack of a better term
that people might be using for spiritual insight and awareness,
like they're doing with ayahuasca or of mescal in or psaulocybin.
From an actoral perspective, can you compare and contrast the
(51:06):
use of iber gain at that level, sort of the
you know, intermediate level, with people's experience with aouaska or
other substances. Yeah, it's not as visual as aowaska, so
I think that. Yeah, I probably could have gone on
a lot more about the differences between them, but iowaska,
you know, can be very visual. There's a lot of
physical sensations, physical purging, um, euphoria. Whereas with i begain,
(51:34):
you the visual component at a low mid dose, you know,
it's not very pronounced. Some people may have it, but
generally not so pronounced. It's more kind of introspective, um, interesting, thoughtful. Yeah,
I mean I like to look at ibergain, you know,
in a sense like a kind of um X ray
of the psyche and emotional field, you know, and and
(51:58):
and the flood dose is a very tense one, and
you get to see absolutely everything. And at a lower dose,
you know, if you'd get a LASS three D approach,
what about the memory recall element. I think people do
get memory recall from it. Yeah, not intermediate doses. Um yeah,
(52:22):
I mean at least from what I've seen, but not
You're getting me intrigued to try it at that kind
of lower level or media intermediate level and see what
exactly that's like. And is there any advice you can
offer to our listeners if they're actually looking to find
a place to have and I begin treatment for themselves
(52:45):
for somebody they care about. I mean, how should they proceed?
I don't know if you can recommend any um, how
can you best answer the question? I think, like I
said in the beginning, definitely look for medically supervised treatment providers,
you know, um, where there's cardiac support on site. Make
sure that all the preparation is done adequately. Um, make
(53:07):
sure that you know they've taken a thorough sort of
inventory of your health and health history. Are there places
or websites where people report their experiences and name the
clinics where they were so people can evaluate based upon
the consumers experience. I think if you dig around, definitely
you can find consumer experiences yeah, um written up and
(53:30):
the various sites you know, show videos. I could list
a number of clinics, but I also don't have personal
experience at those clinics, and I don't have and and
and then there would be many I might leave out
that I also don't have personal experience of. But go
for the medically supervised ones. There are several of them
in Mexico, there's one in Portugal, you know, in um,
(53:52):
South Africa, Canada, Brazil, I'm sure there's yeah. Just just
so there's a good cardiac team and medical supervision. Okay,
that sounds like good advice. Well, Hattie, I have learned
an immense amount from our conversation here. I hope our
listeners have as well. So I just want to thank
you ever so much for joining me and my listeners
(54:14):
on Psychoactive to talk about IV game. Thank you very much, Ethan.
It's been a pleasure, and thanks to all the listeners too.
If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it,
or you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts
or wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear
(54:34):
from our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories, comments,
and ideas, then leave us a message at one eight three, three, seven,
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you can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com
or find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Man. You
(54:55):
can also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive
is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures.
It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by Noam
Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden,
Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoa Pictures,
Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from My Heart Radio and
(55:18):
me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is by Ari Blucien and
a special thanks to Avi Brio, s f Bianca Grimshaw
and Robert Deep. Next week I'll be talking with Ellen Scandlin,
(55:41):
host of the podcast How to Do the Pot, which
focuses on women and cannabis. Every woman should have a
weed lube in her bedside table. Just every woman, So
cannabis lube. It's you know, just a serum and I
highly highly recommend it um. This goes by back to
the pelvic region and the endocannabinoid system and having more
(56:04):
receptors and will not make you feel intoxicated, but it
will bring more blood flow to the area and that
increases sensuality, increases touch and so the weed loobe just
as a as a topical. I give it as to
friends as a gift a lot, and I highly highly
recommend it. Subscribe to Cycleactive now see it an't miss it.