June 30, 2022 • 32 mins
Where are Lizzie Mulder’s victims today? What was this con artist like as a child? And how the heck does that voice changing software work, anyway? Answers to all of these questions - and much, much more will be revealed in this final conclusion episode of Queen of the Con: The OC Savior.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Lizzie bought her herself at home this year home. Yes,
Damjan Capistrano told me about the home down the street
from her parents. I don't know anything much else about it.
Lizzie Malta pulls another fast one and gets away with it.
Now we know after she had bought her house. She
(00:23):
then goes in and signs a police bargain, confessing that
she has no assets. But once federal Prosecutor Scott Tenley
gets wind of this new information, well you'd call it
a fraudulent conveyance. That would be kind of the legal
term of art if you are moving property under fraudulent
Pretexas to you know, disguise your assets. If I had
found out that that was going on, we could have
probably backed out of the plea agreement. The fallout from
(00:46):
Lizzie's alleged asset hiding scam is increasing exponentially in real
time during the production of this podcast. I can tell
you if she showed up in front of Judge Carter,
he would not be happy. She could be charged with
another crime, which would be a fraud. She could potentially
be brought back into court in front of the judge
(01:08):
and asked to vacate this plea agreement. I'm Jonathan Walton
and this is Queen of the con The O C
Savior episode ten, The Rescue Merchant. I don't think I've
(01:39):
ever seen it where a judge, district judge calls back
at event and said, I'm revoking your plea agreement. Former
federal prosecutor Paula Blong admits the Lizzie Malder case is
now heading into uncharted territory. Is that within his power
he has to accept the play agreement. So if she's
violated it, then than is conceivably he could he could
(02:02):
do something to bring her back. So I email Judge
Carter all the evidence I put together that proves Lizzie
Mulder bought a house now valued at one point two
million dollars and transferred ownership to her husband. Then later
the couple divorce. Lizzie claims she has no assets that
(02:23):
can be liquidated to pay her victims one point five
million dollars in court ordered restitution. And I wait, I've
learned through the process of bringing my own con artists,
the Irish Sherriff's to justice and investigating several dozen other
con artists cases over the past four years, that The
justice system is very specific when it comes to court hearings.
(02:48):
Each hearing exists to deal with a certain issue, and
that's it. It's extremely myopic. So the only thing that
happens and can happen at a sentencing here ring is sentencing.
A judge is there to pronounce sentence on a guilty criminal,
and that's it. Any new allegations of wrongdoing need to
(03:10):
be investigated from scratch by law enforcement, and that never
happened with the Lizzie Mulder home buying, asset hiding allegation,
but hopefully because of this podcast it will. Meanwhile, I
realize I've spent so much time documenting Lizzie's crimes that
(03:32):
I haven't paused to really figure out the why. What
is it that makes this woman tick? What was she
like as a child? Were there any red flags that
hinted at her becoming a con artist? It was very
strange my mom telling me that she went to Pepperdine.
I'm like, what she did not? That's Lizzie's childhood. Friend
(03:57):
of me will call her Anna because she wants to
remain anonymous. She's a breathtakingly beautiful woman, tall, blonde with
an air of sophistication about her. She works as a
corporate exact now for a huge out of state company.
But Orange County is a role stomping ground. Growing up here,
she's seen all its tricks. It's the land of credit
(04:21):
card millionaires, and you have people driving around in two
hundred thousand dollar cards and they're living in a ship
box house and you don't realize that until you move away.
And it remembers quite vividly being raised in Orange County
alongside little Lizzie Mulder. She wasn't a member of the
(04:41):
Lucky Sperm Club, and that means what she came from
the same type of household I did. Both working parents
worked hard for you know, everything that they have, and
essentially I was not handed a life on a silver
platter with money on it and where I was able
to do what I want with it. Right, you have
to work honestly, honest work. Never went to jail, Nope,
(05:05):
not that I can remember. How did Lizzie Malder enter
your life? I knew her from junior high and then
we both went to high school together. She was, I
don't want to say, the ugly duckling, but she she
always tried to fit in but she just she never did.
Why was she different? Did she look? She was just
(05:27):
she had an attitude. She had an attitude. Now you
say she was an ugly duckling in high school, Like,
what does that mean? Just the girl next door? Just mousey,
brown hair, a little on the volumptuous side, you know,
a full figured girl. I remember, so I tracked you down.
I found an alumni page for Dana Hills High class
(05:50):
of two thousand one, with like hundreds of people listed,
and I just started background checking every person to find
contact info and started emailing and calling emailian calling emailion,
calling like dozens and dozens of her classmates, and a
couple got back to me. But you're the only one
who took it all the way. Here we are sitting
(06:10):
down talking, Okay, do you remember that when I got
you on the phone and I said you went to
high school with Lizzie Mulder? And do you remember the
first thing you told me? No, not at all. You said, Yes,
she was a raving bitch. She was. She had an attitude.
I think she she thought she was better than everybody else,
And historically, I just I don't get along with people
(06:31):
like that. It's check your attitude at the door and
treat those the way you want to be treated. And
I believe some of the people that fell into her
spider web, if you want to call it that. If
I remember correctly, they were all friends in high school.
The names in the faces looked pretty familiar. How did
you come to know about the cons um We have
a mutual friend and I would rather not bring him
(06:54):
into it, but he told me that he was conned.
My husband's like, what kind of people? Did you like?
Run whip and I have I'm like, no, no, no, Yeah,
It's amazing how one bad apple can literally spoil it
for the bunch, right all of a sudden, your husband
wants to align you with her, and you're like, no, no, no,
no people. And did you know her family? Her mother,
her father, her brother's her mom, I believe was very
(07:18):
active in the Dolphin regiment, so that was kind of
like the parent group. Her mom was always nice. She
was always very cordial with my mom. I mean, no
issues there. And I believe her mom worked at the
Rich Carlton as massage therapist for a while. I don't
know if she's still there. Yeah, that's what I heard too.
And did you know Jesse Mulder, Lizzie's husband at one point,
was a valet at the Rich Carlton that I did know.
(07:39):
How did he get that job through her mother? I
don't know. I was in the hospitality industry for a
long time. And then a lot of your valets and Bellman,
a lot of them aspired to be fireman, and so
I think that's it's it's just an entry level job.
They worked with your schedule there. I didn't know that.
And what is the connection between valet and firefighter? They
(08:00):
work with your schedules. I don't think there's a connection there.
But it's just a flexibility. And long before everyone realized
she was a connor heart of scamming everyone, you suspect
that something was up. So my mom came home and said, oh,
(08:21):
down at the shop, there is Lizzie Moulder. She's working there.
She's working as a bookkeeper. And I, what do you
mean she's a bookkeeper. And then she went through her
CV and said she went to Pepperdine And I said,
I don't think she went to Pepperdine, but okay. So
then I saw her at a Christmas party down there,
(08:44):
and I remember talking to her and I looked at
my friend and I said, something's not adding up. Two
and two wasn't four? What do you mean? What? What
was adding up in your mind? The things that she
was saying in the timeline, especially her husband, who I
don't know, But what I do know is boot Fireman,
aren't making enough money to sustain her lifestyle. Because she
(09:08):
did have a big lifestyle. She was living in Laguna Beach.
Whether you own or rent, living in Laguna Beach is
probably seven eight dollars a month to rent or for
your mortgage. She had several horses at a very pretentious
barn here in San Juan. A pretentious barn. So you're
a horse person, I am, because I couldn't tell you
(09:29):
a pretentious barn from a humble board. It was just
she was probably paying upwards three thousand dollars a month
per horse just to keep them there, like horse rent. Correct,
Oh my god, I could never afford a horse, I know,
if I remember correctly. She wanted to do endurance rides.
I think she had Arabian horses, and those sound price.
(09:53):
They can be Arabian horses. You're not American? Do you
fly them in from Arabia? Like? What's the deal with
an Arabian horse, I have no idea. I gotta look
into it from the Google. Did some googling. Arabian horses
originated for years ago on the Arabian Peninsula where the
countries of Kuwait, Qatar, Yemen, Saudi Arabia and the Arab
(10:16):
Emirates now stand. Arabian horses are known for their speed
and endurance, and they cost tens of thousands of dollars each.
The fact that Lizzie Mulder owned Arabian horses tells you
where a lot of that stolen money probably went. But
you know, when when I was talking to her and
she's telling me about I think she had either like
(10:37):
two or three horses at a barn off of Ortega
Highway and then living in Laguna Beach. Oh, her kids
were um in an Eliza's, which is a preschool. I
went to An Eliza's as a kid. It's a very
expensive preschool in Laguda Beach. So all these things on
a bookkeeper salary, or at least on a boot fireman's salary,
there's no way. You thought, there's no way. And I
(11:01):
said to my friend, I said, watch out, something not
adding up. Well, she's nice she's nice. Well, a lot
of people are nice. I'm nice too, but you haven't
met me in a dark alley. How you are quite
an amazingly astute woman to sum all that up just
from a conversation. And I guess your knowledge of her
past because one of the things you told me is
(11:24):
there's no way she went to Pepperdine. And what makes
you say that, What made you tell me that on
the phone, that she went to a community college? I
know she mean, I don't even think she graduated from
the community college, so you knew that was a lie.
You know she had a framed degree from Pepperdine hanging
on her wall. That doesn't surprise me at the least.
I mean, your your smaller businesses. I work in corporate USA. Now,
(11:45):
your smaller businesses are not going to run complete background
checks where you go into a database and you request
their graduation certificate, because that's what cost money. I've done that.
I do that now when you hire people. When I
hire people, if they say they have an m D,
pH d, whatever it is, even if it's a bachelor,
(12:08):
it doesn't matter what it is. But just too Yeah,
it searches the entire U S database. So if they
have a college record, it's going to come back that
yes they have one, no, incomplete, whatever it may be.
You know, we're in a society where we just take
people's word. If they say they went to the school
(12:28):
or that school or Pepperdine or Schmapperdine, you just okay, great,
good for you, you you know, And that's a very prestigious,
expensive school. Yeah, I think it is. You know what
sad is she is a very smart individual, and had
she probably been honest, but then you know, you don't
make the big bucks being honest. No, no, don't. That's
(12:49):
the sad tragedy is. Yeah, had she just been honest,
she could have had a career, but she couldn't have
kept three Arabian horses at three grand, which with bad
plastic surgery and a house like the beach. And so
when you say bad plastic surgery, could you tell looking
at her that night you were talking to her that
she had bad plastics? What does that look like? It
(13:10):
didn't look like her. You could tell that she had
cheek fill her, she had her nose done. She looked
better without the plastic surgery. The Lizzie Mulder that Anna
sees that night at her friend's Christmas party. Is a
far cry from the one she went to school with.
She was in band. I believe she played. It was
either the clarinet or the flute. You were a color
(13:34):
guard in high school. And what is that? You waved
the flag like, how does Yes, yes, that's well, we'll
just leave it at that. It's not one of my
prouder moments. It's fun, though, it was fun. I still
have some good friends from from doing that. Yeah, so
there were times you guys were together, like practicing or interacting.
(13:54):
Because one group has to do a lot with the other,
it's usually half the year. You were never friends with
her though you were like frenemies. Kept our distances. Yeah,
but intentional on your part because you I just didn't
I didn't like her. She she was mean. She just
had an attitude and if you asked her a question,
she'd give you some snide remark. And was she putting
(14:18):
people down to make herself feel better? I mean a
lot of like low sustained people do that. In high school.
You tend to make fun of everybody. Yeah, you know,
and when you when you're trying to find your clicks
and your groups, you know. I mean, I've made fun
of people that I've made people cry. And now I
have a friend that one of my closest friends and
I apologize to her, and you know, but I was
(14:39):
mean to were in high school. So you know, I
think because it's bored from insecurity, isn't it. Yeah? I
think you feel you want to almost distract people from
looking at you and your deficits or perceived deficits, so
you you make fun of someone else and get the
attention on them. Yeah. Yeah, I did that too well.
Band and color guard is not necessarily the most popular
thing to do either, least when I was in high school.
(15:02):
But it's almost like musical theater, right, Yeah, yeah, I
was a musical theater kid. You know. It's just kind
of the nerds and the dorks of the or in retrospect,
the most talented of everyone, right could be Yeah, because
it takes a talent, it does, certainly does. And it
also takes like a bravado to put yourself out there
and not worry. You know, kids that age are always
(15:23):
concerned what are people going to think? I don't want
to be holding a flag or playing an instrument or
singing on stage. Yeah, so it takes a strong I
think it attracts strong people. I think so too. I
would have never actually thought of it that way. Yeah,
but yeah, I mean, look at you now you are
I mean, I'm a gay guy. So, but you're a
beautiful woman. You seem confident, beautiful, blonde hair like you
(15:46):
look almost like a model. Thank you. Welcome. Make sure
you let my husband know that well you you've blossomed.
Thank you. So whatever dork you thought you were in
Color Guard, I mean, look at you now. You look
out of the page of Vogue. I just have the
attitude of I don't give a funk. But anybody thinks
I wish I knew that back then. You got to
(16:07):
go around the block a few times to get to
that point. That's what you know. You grow. There are
other people who knew Lizzie Mulder as a young girl
who paints a more disturbing picture. So she was always
scamming since she was a child. Do you remember Geneva Mendoza,
(16:30):
co owner of the salon powered by Toni and Guy
in Newport Beach. The stories she's heard from some of
Lizzie's childhood friends are chilling. She stole her like grandfather's
credit card or applied for credit in his name and charged. Yeah,
that's what I heard. She she used his so security
number and and started taking out credit in his account.
(16:51):
And he's already passed away at the time, So it
was her dead grandfather stole his identity, applied for credit
cards and got it and racked up the credit her
and got caught and got caught. Yeah, I don't know
what happened, obviously not much. And at that age she's
stealing her dead grandfather's credit Like, who does that? So
apparently the signs that Lizzie Malta was going to grow
(17:14):
up and become a con artist, we're always there if
you knew what to look for. In my mind, and
disclaimer here, I'm not a doctor who can make a
real diagnosis, but in my mind, that makes her a
true psychopath, though I've heard a lot of people refer
to her as a sociopath. And if you're wondering what
(17:34):
the difference is, Psychopaths are born, Sociopaths are made. Former
FBI criminal profiler and host of the podcast Killer Psyche
Candice DeLong has studied this kind of stuff for decades.
Con Artists like her their psychopaths. Okay, frequently I asked question,
(17:56):
what's the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath. They
both come under the umbrella in the Diagnostic and Statistical
Manual ds M five, fifth edition of Antisocial Personality Disorder.
The difference between the two. Psychopaths tend to be smarter,
and they are able to plan better. They have better
(18:19):
verbal skills. Sociopaths tend to be We often find that
they were abused as children, their environment affected what they became.
I've also read and correct me if I'm wrong that
psychopaths are like the criminal genius. They know exactly what
(18:39):
they're doing, they feel no remorse, no regret, and they're
going to get away with it most of the time
because they're they're brilliant at the planning, whereas a sociopath. Yes,
they don't have empathy or guilt, but they kind of
react out of anger or fear or they lose their temper.
Their crimes aren't planned necessarily, that's correct. And because they're
crime aren't planned, and because a lot of their crimes
(19:02):
are spur of the moment, they're sloppy, they leave evidence
and they get caught. They tend to not become serial
killers because they get caught and they go to prison. Yeah,
that makes a lot of sense to me. Now, so yeah,
all con artists are probably psychopaths pretty much. Yeah, it's
(19:23):
a safe statement. It's not absolute, but it's safe. What
do you make of Lizzie Bolder. She's a narcissist. She's
a psychopathic narcissist. And by the way, most successful con
artists are very narcissistic. And when you think about it,
when narcissist, it's all about me. They believe they are
(19:43):
superior to everyone. Anything they say will be believed, anything
they do will work out for them because they are
superior to everyone around them. And when you think about it,
that descript oction. Of course, a successful con artists would
(20:04):
have to be narcissistic to get away with what they do.
They're charming. Narcissists are charming, They're engaging, and they are persuasive.
A con artist must persuade you to do something that
you wouldn't normally do. They must gain your trust for
(20:27):
you to open your wallet. And what Lizzie did with
a lot of her customers in Orange County, she became
what they needed, their right hand person. She became there's
a term for it, rescue merchant rescue, merchant rescue merchant.
Her habit was to come in and scoop people up
(20:50):
with struggling businesses or fledgling businesses that wanted to grow.
And she said, hey, you know, I'm a c p A, which,
by the way, only about five people that have accounting
degrees become c p A. S it's a big deal.
And she actually went so far to say she had
a degree from Pepperdine, which is exclusive private school in Malibu.
(21:13):
So she became what they needed, which was help, and
help she did, oftentimes not as herself at all, which
leads to another thing that truly fascinates me about the
Lizzie Milder case. Her use of voice changing apps on
her phone to impersonate I R S agents, credit card wraps,
(21:36):
Chinese investors, and the litany of other characters she created
to scam her victims. That German ariston artist and a
Delvi famously used this voice changing app technique to very
successfully to scam her victims. So I start looking into
these voice changing apps and it freaks me out. There
(21:57):
are literally hundreds of them. Some are kind of shitty
and obvious like this one. While you can tell it
doesn't sound like my voice per se, it can't really
pass as an iOS agent or a bankrupt It sounds
robotic and fake. But this other voice is totally believable.
(22:20):
I sound like a real live woman using this one. Hi,
my name is Marcy. I'm calling from Bank of America.
We've detected some unusual activity on your account, so we
froze it, and I just need to confirm your mother's
maiden name and social security number to secure your account.
Or what about this voice? I still sound like a man,
(22:41):
but I don't sound like me Jonathan Walton at all. Hi,
my name is Peter. I'm calling from the leasing office.
We were unable to deposit your rent check this month.
Can you confirm your accountant rowdy numbers which are printed
on the check so we won't be forced to send
you an eviction notice? Banks, these voice changing apps are scary.
(23:11):
You really can't believe what you hear over the phone anymore.
But you want to know what's even scarier. Those billion
dollar banks that you trust to keep your money safe
have a lot of giant security holes that con artists
are exploiting every single day. I talked about this with
gen Rodriguez. You might remember she's the one who uncovered
(23:33):
Lizzie scamming her boss out of almost a million dollars
and became a forensic accountant because of it. She took
the checks that I wrote to vendors and cash him
into personal check. Did she write checks to Lizzie Molder
or her company or income tax payments? It wasn't even
to anything. It was to other vendors. But the bank
never caught it. Oh so she just deposited checks in
(23:56):
her account. Boy, banks are sloppy. Think sure are you
think when you write the name on the check that
only that person can cash it? But it's not the case.
Even the fact that banks don't cover fraud, I think
that's the number one that people often say, Wait, what
what do you mean? They don't cover fraud? But sometimes
they'll call me, Yeah, they do it out of courtesy.
(24:17):
But really what they're doing is protecting themselves too, because
there's compliance on their side that they have to meet
in an upright to act as if they're they're they're
taking every precaution to protect your account, but if you
lose any money, they're they're not responsible, not technically, I
think people don't know that right. Banks aren't responsible for
protecting you from fraud. Only credit cards are. And when
(24:38):
Jen worked for the same company Lizzie Maulder did back
in she was shocked to find out that her boss's
bank cashed so many obviously fraudulent checks that Lizzie Malder forged.
They weren't even signed, but they never got caught, and
the bank cashed them, and the bank cashed them without
even catching it so many. So we should really at
(25:00):
our checkbooks, absolutely, right, because anyone can just rip a
check out. Absolutely. I have mine in my nightside table.
I should I should put them in some secure place.
You have a due diligence as a bank holder or
account holder to really check all of your statements. And
so often now we have electronic statements that we don't
see things, and things go through we're looking at it
(25:20):
on our phone. So you really have to do the
due diligence to to pay attention because if you report it,
they most likely will support you if there's a fraud,
but they're not required a certain amount of time. Yeah,
it has to be within sixty days for sure, and
even that's a stretch. One of the things that's most
(25:41):
shocking about the Lizzie Milder case, though, as it relates
to banking in the United States, is even after the
fraud is discovered and after the bank concedes they cast
checks that have no signatures on them or blatantly bogus signatures,
they still took zero responsibility and gave back zero money
(26:02):
to the victims. I thought, you know, f D I
c IS is going to protect us. That's what they're
there for, for fraud and to make sure that these
kind of things don't happen. Salon owner Geneva Mendoza finds
out the hard way. A signature on a check is
as useless as a screen door on a submarine. So
we immediately we asked the bank, like, how could you
(26:23):
allow that to happen? These are not our signatures on
all these seventy seven checks. They're not our signatures. No
bank never caught that. No, wow, Yeah, So it calls
into question once in a signature nothing apparently, I guess,
you guess you could just take somebody's check book and
you can just write whatever you want. No one's checking
the signatures. In the end. Forensic accountant gen Rodriguez says
(26:45):
you should try to never use checks for anything, and
never use your a t M card to buy stuff.
Instead use a credit card because credit cards are obligated
by a lot of protect you from fraud. Are not
they'll do it as a courtesy, but they don't have to.
They don't have to go I'm gonna stop you some
(27:07):
ATM card. And the other great thing not that I'm
promoting credit cards, but the other great thing is they
have a much layered approach on fraud protection because they're liable.
How many times have you traveled and they shut down
your credit card because you didn't inform them. That's somebody
paying different level of attention. And the other thing is
is with credit cards, it's not fully attached to other things.
(27:30):
So if you wire from a bank account, you have
your bank account now you can pull money out. Once
some money's gone, it's gone. As for Lizzie's victims, it's
been five years since she scammed them and they've all
moved on with their lives. Mike Cochrane's print shop went
out of business. He's working as an industry sales rep
today and still dealing with staggering I R S penalties
(27:52):
because of Lizzie scams and what sucks is I mean
she took less than twenty grand out of me, and
look at she has wrecked my answers for five years
and a hunter k plus. You know, I'm like, oh
my god. You know, j Avery's winery went belly up
to because of what Lizzie did, and today he's working
in an entirely new field. He actually founded his own
(28:15):
drug treatment facility, stone Bridge Recovery in Utah, and he
and Marla are doing really well. This has clearly been
like a renaissance for you because you were an addict
and now you help people kick addictions. People don't understand.
I'm grateful for it, you know, because I realized that
I'm stronger than I thought I was. It empowered me
(28:36):
to be better and do better. A lot of this
was working through that, and then a couple of other things,
and then here I am, like I said, sometimes you
gotta go there to get to hear in. Part of
me is extremely grateful for her and what she did.
And I feel like we've gotten Marla and I have
gotten stronger. We're pretty bulletproof as a couple. Yeah, I
(28:58):
was curious I was going to stick around. We were
buying Peb and Jays and yeah got dark for a
little and Geneva and Laurence Salon powered by Tony and Guy.
They took out massive loans to blunt the fallout from
lizzie scams, but they bounced back. I would say, we're
(29:20):
doing pretty well until COVID, until COVID's like, yeah, another torpedo. Um, No,
we're doing well. Not everyone was that fortunate. For people
really did lose business. Yeah, and not only that, they
owe hundreds of thousands and taxes because of what she
claimed to be taking care of their taxes. I know,
and you would think that that I wrestle would forgive that,
(29:40):
but they don't. And Jen Rodriguez's boss, the one with
the luxury experience booking website that Lizzie scammed out of
more than eight hundred thousand dollars, she miraculously bounced back
to I really admire my boss, who's one of the
most giving, gracious, generous people I've ever met. And and honestly,
(30:01):
it almost brings me to tears because she's the kind
of person that had Lizzie ever said Hey, I need help,
will you help me pay for this or I'm really struggling.
My boss is one of the most giving people in
the world. But will Lizzie Mulder ever face any repercussions
for surreptitiously buying that house in San Juancapistrano and transferring
(30:25):
ownership to her husband while negotiating her guilty plea agreement
that remains to be seen. But Sergeant Jordan Mirackian is
certain of one thing. The only way Lizzie loses in
this is to keep this alive. Yes, you know, people
need to know what she looks like, who she is.
(30:45):
And if you believe that God, or the universe or
some supreme creator has a wicked sense of humor, or
even if you're an atheist who believes in hysterical coincidences,
Sergeant Miraqian leaves you this, and you know what her
day job was, right, What was her day job? Lizzie
Mulder while all this is going on, is a salesperson
(31:09):
for a fertilizer company. She sells shit. She sells shit, Yes,
that's how she was really making money. She sells bullshit.
How how incredibly ironic is all that? Queen of the
(31:33):
con The O C Savior is a production of a
Y R Media and I Heart Media. Hosted by Me
Jonathan Walton. Executive producers Jonathan Walton for Jonathan Walton Productions
and Eliza Rosen for A y R Media. Written by
Jonathan Walton, Consulting producer Evan Goldstein, Senior Associate producer Eric Newman.
(31:58):
Sound design by Baked Eady Media, mixed and mastered by
Cameron Taggy. Sound editing, audio and studio engineering by Matt Jacobson.
Legal counsel for A y R Media, Gianni Douglas, Executive
producer for I Heart Media. Maya Howard. If you've enjoyed
(32:22):
this season of Queen of a Con, leave us a
review wherever you get your podcasts, and for exclusive pictures
and videos of some of the things we talked about
in all ten episodes of The o C Savior, just
go to at Queen of the Con on Instagram.
Lizzie bought her herself at home this year home. Yes,
Damjan Capistrano told me about the home down the street
from her parents. I don't know anything much else about it.
Lizzie Malta pulls another fast one and gets away with it.
Now we know after she had bought her house. She
(00:23):
then goes in and signs a police bargain, confessing that
she has no assets. But once federal Prosecutor Scott Tenley
gets wind of this new information, well you'd call it
a fraudulent conveyance. That would be kind of the legal
term of art if you are moving property under fraudulent
Pretexas to you know, disguise your assets. If I had
found out that that was going on, we could have
probably backed out of the plea agreement. The fallout from
(00:46):
Lizzie's alleged asset hiding scam is increasing exponentially in real
time during the production of this podcast. I can tell
you if she showed up in front of Judge Carter,
he would not be happy. She could be charged with
another crime, which would be a fraud. She could potentially
be brought back into court in front of the judge
(01:08):
and asked to vacate this plea agreement. I'm Jonathan Walton
and this is Queen of the con The O C
Savior episode ten, The Rescue Merchant. I don't think I've
(01:39):
ever seen it where a judge, district judge calls back
at event and said, I'm revoking your plea agreement. Former
federal prosecutor Paula Blong admits the Lizzie Malder case is
now heading into uncharted territory. Is that within his power
he has to accept the play agreement. So if she's
violated it, then than is conceivably he could he could
(02:02):
do something to bring her back. So I email Judge
Carter all the evidence I put together that proves Lizzie
Mulder bought a house now valued at one point two
million dollars and transferred ownership to her husband. Then later
the couple divorce. Lizzie claims she has no assets that
(02:23):
can be liquidated to pay her victims one point five
million dollars in court ordered restitution. And I wait, I've
learned through the process of bringing my own con artists,
the Irish Sherriff's to justice and investigating several dozen other
con artists cases over the past four years, that The
justice system is very specific when it comes to court hearings.
(02:48):
Each hearing exists to deal with a certain issue, and
that's it. It's extremely myopic. So the only thing that
happens and can happen at a sentencing here ring is sentencing.
A judge is there to pronounce sentence on a guilty criminal,
and that's it. Any new allegations of wrongdoing need to
(03:10):
be investigated from scratch by law enforcement, and that never
happened with the Lizzie Mulder home buying, asset hiding allegation,
but hopefully because of this podcast it will. Meanwhile, I
realize I've spent so much time documenting Lizzie's crimes that
(03:32):
I haven't paused to really figure out the why. What
is it that makes this woman tick? What was she
like as a child? Were there any red flags that
hinted at her becoming a con artist? It was very
strange my mom telling me that she went to Pepperdine.
I'm like, what she did not? That's Lizzie's childhood. Friend
(03:57):
of me will call her Anna because she wants to
remain anonymous. She's a breathtakingly beautiful woman, tall, blonde with
an air of sophistication about her. She works as a
corporate exact now for a huge out of state company.
But Orange County is a role stomping ground. Growing up here,
she's seen all its tricks. It's the land of credit
(04:21):
card millionaires, and you have people driving around in two
hundred thousand dollar cards and they're living in a ship
box house and you don't realize that until you move away.
And it remembers quite vividly being raised in Orange County
alongside little Lizzie Mulder. She wasn't a member of the
(04:41):
Lucky Sperm Club, and that means what she came from
the same type of household I did. Both working parents
worked hard for you know, everything that they have, and
essentially I was not handed a life on a silver
platter with money on it and where I was able
to do what I want with it. Right, you have
to work honestly, honest work. Never went to jail, Nope,
(05:05):
not that I can remember. How did Lizzie Malder enter
your life? I knew her from junior high and then
we both went to high school together. She was, I
don't want to say, the ugly duckling, but she she
always tried to fit in but she just she never did.
Why was she different? Did she look? She was just
(05:27):
she had an attitude. She had an attitude. Now you
say she was an ugly duckling in high school, Like,
what does that mean? Just the girl next door? Just mousey,
brown hair, a little on the volumptuous side, you know,
a full figured girl. I remember, so I tracked you down.
I found an alumni page for Dana Hills High class
(05:50):
of two thousand one, with like hundreds of people listed,
and I just started background checking every person to find
contact info and started emailing and calling emailian calling emailion,
calling like dozens and dozens of her classmates, and a
couple got back to me. But you're the only one
who took it all the way. Here we are sitting
(06:10):
down talking, Okay, do you remember that when I got
you on the phone and I said you went to
high school with Lizzie Mulder? And do you remember the
first thing you told me? No, not at all. You said, Yes,
she was a raving bitch. She was. She had an attitude.
I think she she thought she was better than everybody else,
And historically, I just I don't get along with people
(06:31):
like that. It's check your attitude at the door and
treat those the way you want to be treated. And
I believe some of the people that fell into her
spider web, if you want to call it that. If
I remember correctly, they were all friends in high school.
The names in the faces looked pretty familiar. How did
you come to know about the cons um We have
a mutual friend and I would rather not bring him
(06:54):
into it, but he told me that he was conned.
My husband's like, what kind of people? Did you like?
Run whip and I have I'm like, no, no, no, Yeah,
It's amazing how one bad apple can literally spoil it
for the bunch, right all of a sudden, your husband
wants to align you with her, and you're like, no, no, no,
no people. And did you know her family? Her mother,
her father, her brother's her mom, I believe was very
(07:18):
active in the Dolphin regiment, so that was kind of
like the parent group. Her mom was always nice. She
was always very cordial with my mom. I mean, no
issues there. And I believe her mom worked at the
Rich Carlton as massage therapist for a while. I don't
know if she's still there. Yeah, that's what I heard too.
And did you know Jesse Mulder, Lizzie's husband at one point,
was a valet at the Rich Carlton that I did know.
(07:39):
How did he get that job through her mother? I
don't know. I was in the hospitality industry for a
long time. And then a lot of your valets and Bellman,
a lot of them aspired to be fireman, and so
I think that's it's it's just an entry level job.
They worked with your schedule there. I didn't know that.
And what is the connection between valet and firefighter? They
(08:00):
work with your schedules. I don't think there's a connection there.
But it's just a flexibility. And long before everyone realized
she was a connor heart of scamming everyone, you suspect
that something was up. So my mom came home and said, oh,
(08:21):
down at the shop, there is Lizzie Moulder. She's working there.
She's working as a bookkeeper. And I, what do you
mean she's a bookkeeper. And then she went through her
CV and said she went to Pepperdine And I said,
I don't think she went to Pepperdine, but okay. So
then I saw her at a Christmas party down there,
(08:44):
and I remember talking to her and I looked at
my friend and I said, something's not adding up. Two
and two wasn't four? What do you mean? What? What
was adding up in your mind? The things that she
was saying in the timeline, especially her husband, who I
don't know, But what I do know is boot Fireman,
aren't making enough money to sustain her lifestyle. Because she
(09:08):
did have a big lifestyle. She was living in Laguna Beach.
Whether you own or rent, living in Laguna Beach is
probably seven eight dollars a month to rent or for
your mortgage. She had several horses at a very pretentious
barn here in San Juan. A pretentious barn. So you're
a horse person, I am, because I couldn't tell you
(09:29):
a pretentious barn from a humble board. It was just
she was probably paying upwards three thousand dollars a month
per horse just to keep them there, like horse rent. Correct,
Oh my god, I could never afford a horse, I know,
if I remember correctly. She wanted to do endurance rides.
I think she had Arabian horses, and those sound price.
(09:53):
They can be Arabian horses. You're not American? Do you
fly them in from Arabia? Like? What's the deal with
an Arabian horse, I have no idea. I gotta look
into it from the Google. Did some googling. Arabian horses
originated for years ago on the Arabian Peninsula where the
countries of Kuwait, Qatar, Yemen, Saudi Arabia and the Arab
(10:16):
Emirates now stand. Arabian horses are known for their speed
and endurance, and they cost tens of thousands of dollars each.
The fact that Lizzie Mulder owned Arabian horses tells you
where a lot of that stolen money probably went. But
you know, when when I was talking to her and
she's telling me about I think she had either like
(10:37):
two or three horses at a barn off of Ortega
Highway and then living in Laguna Beach. Oh, her kids
were um in an Eliza's, which is a preschool. I
went to An Eliza's as a kid. It's a very
expensive preschool in Laguda Beach. So all these things on
a bookkeeper salary, or at least on a boot fireman's salary,
there's no way. You thought, there's no way. And I
(11:01):
said to my friend, I said, watch out, something not
adding up. Well, she's nice she's nice. Well, a lot
of people are nice. I'm nice too, but you haven't
met me in a dark alley. How you are quite
an amazingly astute woman to sum all that up just
from a conversation. And I guess your knowledge of her
past because one of the things you told me is
(11:24):
there's no way she went to Pepperdine. And what makes
you say that, What made you tell me that on
the phone, that she went to a community college? I
know she mean, I don't even think she graduated from
the community college, so you knew that was a lie.
You know she had a framed degree from Pepperdine hanging
on her wall. That doesn't surprise me at the least.
I mean, your your smaller businesses. I work in corporate USA. Now,
(11:45):
your smaller businesses are not going to run complete background
checks where you go into a database and you request
their graduation certificate, because that's what cost money. I've done that.
I do that now when you hire people. When I
hire people, if they say they have an m D,
pH d, whatever it is, even if it's a bachelor,
(12:08):
it doesn't matter what it is. But just too Yeah,
it searches the entire U S database. So if they
have a college record, it's going to come back that
yes they have one, no, incomplete, whatever it may be.
You know, we're in a society where we just take
people's word. If they say they went to the school
(12:28):
or that school or Pepperdine or Schmapperdine, you just okay, great,
good for you, you you know, And that's a very prestigious,
expensive school. Yeah, I think it is. You know what
sad is she is a very smart individual, and had
she probably been honest, but then you know, you don't
make the big bucks being honest. No, no, don't. That's
(12:49):
the sad tragedy is. Yeah, had she just been honest,
she could have had a career, but she couldn't have
kept three Arabian horses at three grand, which with bad
plastic surgery and a house like the beach. And so
when you say bad plastic surgery, could you tell looking
at her that night you were talking to her that
she had bad plastics? What does that look like? It
(13:10):
didn't look like her. You could tell that she had
cheek fill her, she had her nose done. She looked
better without the plastic surgery. The Lizzie Mulder that Anna
sees that night at her friend's Christmas party. Is a
far cry from the one she went to school with.
She was in band. I believe she played. It was
either the clarinet or the flute. You were a color
(13:34):
guard in high school. And what is that? You waved
the flag like, how does Yes, yes, that's well, we'll
just leave it at that. It's not one of my
prouder moments. It's fun, though, it was fun. I still
have some good friends from from doing that. Yeah, so
there were times you guys were together, like practicing or interacting.
(13:54):
Because one group has to do a lot with the other,
it's usually half the year. You were never friends with
her though you were like frenemies. Kept our distances. Yeah,
but intentional on your part because you I just didn't
I didn't like her. She she was mean. She just
had an attitude and if you asked her a question,
she'd give you some snide remark. And was she putting
(14:18):
people down to make herself feel better? I mean a
lot of like low sustained people do that. In high school.
You tend to make fun of everybody. Yeah, you know,
and when you when you're trying to find your clicks
and your groups, you know. I mean, I've made fun
of people that I've made people cry. And now I
have a friend that one of my closest friends and
I apologize to her, and you know, but I was
(14:39):
mean to were in high school. So you know, I
think because it's bored from insecurity, isn't it. Yeah? I
think you feel you want to almost distract people from
looking at you and your deficits or perceived deficits, so
you you make fun of someone else and get the
attention on them. Yeah. Yeah, I did that too well.
Band and color guard is not necessarily the most popular
thing to do either, least when I was in high school.
(15:02):
But it's almost like musical theater, right, Yeah, yeah, I
was a musical theater kid. You know. It's just kind
of the nerds and the dorks of the or in retrospect,
the most talented of everyone, right could be Yeah, because
it takes a talent, it does, certainly does. And it
also takes like a bravado to put yourself out there
and not worry. You know, kids that age are always
(15:23):
concerned what are people going to think? I don't want
to be holding a flag or playing an instrument or
singing on stage. Yeah, so it takes a strong I
think it attracts strong people. I think so too. I
would have never actually thought of it that way. Yeah,
but yeah, I mean, look at you now you are
I mean, I'm a gay guy. So, but you're a
beautiful woman. You seem confident, beautiful, blonde hair like you
(15:46):
look almost like a model. Thank you. Welcome. Make sure
you let my husband know that well you you've blossomed.
Thank you. So whatever dork you thought you were in
Color Guard, I mean, look at you now. You look
out of the page of Vogue. I just have the
attitude of I don't give a funk. But anybody thinks
I wish I knew that back then. You got to
(16:07):
go around the block a few times to get to
that point. That's what you know. You grow. There are
other people who knew Lizzie Mulder as a young girl
who paints a more disturbing picture. So she was always
scamming since she was a child. Do you remember Geneva Mendoza,
(16:30):
co owner of the salon powered by Toni and Guy
in Newport Beach. The stories she's heard from some of
Lizzie's childhood friends are chilling. She stole her like grandfather's
credit card or applied for credit in his name and charged. Yeah,
that's what I heard. She she used his so security
number and and started taking out credit in his account.
(16:51):
And he's already passed away at the time, So it
was her dead grandfather stole his identity, applied for credit
cards and got it and racked up the credit her
and got caught and got caught. Yeah, I don't know
what happened, obviously not much. And at that age she's
stealing her dead grandfather's credit Like, who does that? So
apparently the signs that Lizzie Malta was going to grow
(17:14):
up and become a con artist, we're always there if
you knew what to look for. In my mind, and
disclaimer here, I'm not a doctor who can make a
real diagnosis, but in my mind, that makes her a
true psychopath, though I've heard a lot of people refer
to her as a sociopath. And if you're wondering what
(17:34):
the difference is, Psychopaths are born, Sociopaths are made. Former
FBI criminal profiler and host of the podcast Killer Psyche
Candice DeLong has studied this kind of stuff for decades.
Con Artists like her their psychopaths. Okay, frequently I asked question,
(17:56):
what's the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath. They
both come under the umbrella in the Diagnostic and Statistical
Manual ds M five, fifth edition of Antisocial Personality Disorder.
The difference between the two. Psychopaths tend to be smarter,
and they are able to plan better. They have better
(18:19):
verbal skills. Sociopaths tend to be We often find that
they were abused as children, their environment affected what they became.
I've also read and correct me if I'm wrong that
psychopaths are like the criminal genius. They know exactly what
(18:39):
they're doing, they feel no remorse, no regret, and they're
going to get away with it most of the time
because they're they're brilliant at the planning, whereas a sociopath. Yes,
they don't have empathy or guilt, but they kind of
react out of anger or fear or they lose their temper.
Their crimes aren't planned necessarily, that's correct. And because they're
crime aren't planned, and because a lot of their crimes
(19:02):
are spur of the moment, they're sloppy, they leave evidence
and they get caught. They tend to not become serial
killers because they get caught and they go to prison. Yeah,
that makes a lot of sense to me. Now, so yeah,
all con artists are probably psychopaths pretty much. Yeah, it's
(19:23):
a safe statement. It's not absolute, but it's safe. What
do you make of Lizzie Bolder. She's a narcissist. She's
a psychopathic narcissist. And by the way, most successful con
artists are very narcissistic. And when you think about it,
when narcissist, it's all about me. They believe they are
(19:43):
superior to everyone. Anything they say will be believed, anything
they do will work out for them because they are
superior to everyone around them. And when you think about it,
that descript oction. Of course, a successful con artists would
(20:04):
have to be narcissistic to get away with what they do.
They're charming. Narcissists are charming, They're engaging, and they are persuasive.
A con artist must persuade you to do something that
you wouldn't normally do. They must gain your trust for
(20:27):
you to open your wallet. And what Lizzie did with
a lot of her customers in Orange County, she became
what they needed, their right hand person. She became there's
a term for it, rescue merchant rescue, merchant rescue merchant.
Her habit was to come in and scoop people up
(20:50):
with struggling businesses or fledgling businesses that wanted to grow.
And she said, hey, you know, I'm a c p A, which,
by the way, only about five people that have accounting
degrees become c p A. S it's a big deal.
And she actually went so far to say she had
a degree from Pepperdine, which is exclusive private school in Malibu.
(21:13):
So she became what they needed, which was help, and
help she did, oftentimes not as herself at all, which
leads to another thing that truly fascinates me about the
Lizzie Milder case. Her use of voice changing apps on
her phone to impersonate I R S agents, credit card wraps,
(21:36):
Chinese investors, and the litany of other characters she created
to scam her victims. That German ariston artist and a
Delvi famously used this voice changing app technique to very
successfully to scam her victims. So I start looking into
these voice changing apps and it freaks me out. There
(21:57):
are literally hundreds of them. Some are kind of shitty
and obvious like this one. While you can tell it
doesn't sound like my voice per se, it can't really
pass as an iOS agent or a bankrupt It sounds
robotic and fake. But this other voice is totally believable.
(22:20):
I sound like a real live woman using this one. Hi,
my name is Marcy. I'm calling from Bank of America.
We've detected some unusual activity on your account, so we
froze it, and I just need to confirm your mother's
maiden name and social security number to secure your account.
Or what about this voice? I still sound like a man,
(22:41):
but I don't sound like me Jonathan Walton at all. Hi,
my name is Peter. I'm calling from the leasing office.
We were unable to deposit your rent check this month.
Can you confirm your accountant rowdy numbers which are printed
on the check so we won't be forced to send
you an eviction notice? Banks, these voice changing apps are scary.
(23:11):
You really can't believe what you hear over the phone anymore.
But you want to know what's even scarier. Those billion
dollar banks that you trust to keep your money safe
have a lot of giant security holes that con artists
are exploiting every single day. I talked about this with
gen Rodriguez. You might remember she's the one who uncovered
(23:33):
Lizzie scamming her boss out of almost a million dollars
and became a forensic accountant because of it. She took
the checks that I wrote to vendors and cash him
into personal check. Did she write checks to Lizzie Molder
or her company or income tax payments? It wasn't even
to anything. It was to other vendors. But the bank
never caught it. Oh so she just deposited checks in
(23:56):
her account. Boy, banks are sloppy. Think sure are you
think when you write the name on the check that
only that person can cash it? But it's not the case.
Even the fact that banks don't cover fraud, I think
that's the number one that people often say, Wait, what
what do you mean? They don't cover fraud? But sometimes
they'll call me, Yeah, they do it out of courtesy.
(24:17):
But really what they're doing is protecting themselves too, because
there's compliance on their side that they have to meet
in an upright to act as if they're they're they're
taking every precaution to protect your account, but if you
lose any money, they're they're not responsible, not technically, I
think people don't know that right. Banks aren't responsible for
protecting you from fraud. Only credit cards are. And when
(24:38):
Jen worked for the same company Lizzie Maulder did back
in she was shocked to find out that her boss's
bank cashed so many obviously fraudulent checks that Lizzie Malder forged.
They weren't even signed, but they never got caught, and
the bank cashed them, and the bank cashed them without
even catching it so many. So we should really at
(25:00):
our checkbooks, absolutely, right, because anyone can just rip a
check out. Absolutely. I have mine in my nightside table.
I should I should put them in some secure place.
You have a due diligence as a bank holder or
account holder to really check all of your statements. And
so often now we have electronic statements that we don't
see things, and things go through we're looking at it
(25:20):
on our phone. So you really have to do the
due diligence to to pay attention because if you report it,
they most likely will support you if there's a fraud,
but they're not required a certain amount of time. Yeah,
it has to be within sixty days for sure, and
even that's a stretch. One of the things that's most
(25:41):
shocking about the Lizzie Milder case, though, as it relates
to banking in the United States, is even after the
fraud is discovered and after the bank concedes they cast
checks that have no signatures on them or blatantly bogus signatures,
they still took zero responsibility and gave back zero money
(26:02):
to the victims. I thought, you know, f D I
c IS is going to protect us. That's what they're
there for, for fraud and to make sure that these
kind of things don't happen. Salon owner Geneva Mendoza finds
out the hard way. A signature on a check is
as useless as a screen door on a submarine. So
we immediately we asked the bank, like, how could you
(26:23):
allow that to happen? These are not our signatures on
all these seventy seven checks. They're not our signatures. No
bank never caught that. No, wow, Yeah, So it calls
into question once in a signature nothing apparently, I guess,
you guess you could just take somebody's check book and
you can just write whatever you want. No one's checking
the signatures. In the end. Forensic accountant gen Rodriguez says
(26:45):
you should try to never use checks for anything, and
never use your a t M card to buy stuff.
Instead use a credit card because credit cards are obligated
by a lot of protect you from fraud. Are not
they'll do it as a courtesy, but they don't have to.
They don't have to go I'm gonna stop you some
(27:07):
ATM card. And the other great thing not that I'm
promoting credit cards, but the other great thing is they
have a much layered approach on fraud protection because they're liable.
How many times have you traveled and they shut down
your credit card because you didn't inform them. That's somebody
paying different level of attention. And the other thing is
is with credit cards, it's not fully attached to other things.
(27:30):
So if you wire from a bank account, you have
your bank account now you can pull money out. Once
some money's gone, it's gone. As for Lizzie's victims, it's
been five years since she scammed them and they've all
moved on with their lives. Mike Cochrane's print shop went
out of business. He's working as an industry sales rep
today and still dealing with staggering I R S penalties
(27:52):
because of Lizzie scams and what sucks is I mean
she took less than twenty grand out of me, and
look at she has wrecked my answers for five years
and a hunter k plus. You know, I'm like, oh
my god. You know, j Avery's winery went belly up
to because of what Lizzie did, and today he's working
in an entirely new field. He actually founded his own
(28:15):
drug treatment facility, stone Bridge Recovery in Utah, and he
and Marla are doing really well. This has clearly been
like a renaissance for you because you were an addict
and now you help people kick addictions. People don't understand.
I'm grateful for it, you know, because I realized that
I'm stronger than I thought I was. It empowered me
(28:36):
to be better and do better. A lot of this
was working through that, and then a couple of other things,
and then here I am, like I said, sometimes you
gotta go there to get to hear in. Part of
me is extremely grateful for her and what she did.
And I feel like we've gotten Marla and I have
gotten stronger. We're pretty bulletproof as a couple. Yeah, I
(28:58):
was curious I was going to stick around. We were
buying Peb and Jays and yeah got dark for a
little and Geneva and Laurence Salon powered by Tony and Guy.
They took out massive loans to blunt the fallout from
lizzie scams, but they bounced back. I would say, we're
(29:20):
doing pretty well until COVID, until COVID's like, yeah, another torpedo. Um, No,
we're doing well. Not everyone was that fortunate. For people
really did lose business. Yeah, and not only that, they
owe hundreds of thousands and taxes because of what she
claimed to be taking care of their taxes. I know,
and you would think that that I wrestle would forgive that,
(29:40):
but they don't. And Jen Rodriguez's boss, the one with
the luxury experience booking website that Lizzie scammed out of
more than eight hundred thousand dollars, she miraculously bounced back
to I really admire my boss, who's one of the
most giving, gracious, generous people I've ever met. And and honestly,
(30:01):
it almost brings me to tears because she's the kind
of person that had Lizzie ever said Hey, I need help,
will you help me pay for this or I'm really struggling.
My boss is one of the most giving people in
the world. But will Lizzie Mulder ever face any repercussions
for surreptitiously buying that house in San Juancapistrano and transferring
(30:25):
ownership to her husband while negotiating her guilty plea agreement
that remains to be seen. But Sergeant Jordan Mirackian is
certain of one thing. The only way Lizzie loses in
this is to keep this alive. Yes, you know, people
need to know what she looks like, who she is.
(30:45):
And if you believe that God, or the universe or
some supreme creator has a wicked sense of humor, or
even if you're an atheist who believes in hysterical coincidences,
Sergeant Miraqian leaves you this, and you know what her
day job was, right, What was her day job? Lizzie
Mulder while all this is going on, is a salesperson
(31:09):
for a fertilizer company. She sells shit. She sells shit, Yes,
that's how she was really making money. She sells bullshit.
How how incredibly ironic is all that? Queen of the
(31:33):
con The O C Savior is a production of a
Y R Media and I Heart Media. Hosted by Me
Jonathan Walton. Executive producers Jonathan Walton for Jonathan Walton Productions
and Eliza Rosen for A y R Media. Written by
Jonathan Walton, Consulting producer Evan Goldstein, Senior Associate producer Eric Newman.
(31:58):
Sound design by Baked Eady Media, mixed and mastered by
Cameron Taggy. Sound editing, audio and studio engineering by Matt Jacobson.
Legal counsel for A y R Media, Gianni Douglas, Executive
producer for I Heart Media. Maya Howard. If you've enjoyed
(32:22):
this season of Queen of a Con, leave us a
review wherever you get your podcasts, and for exclusive pictures
and videos of some of the things we talked about
in all ten episodes of The o C Savior, just
go to at Queen of the Con on Instagram.
Host
Johnathan Walton
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