Jenna Lyons & Erin Lichy on Style, Shabbat, and Surviving Real Housewives

‘Real Housewives’ stars Jenna Lyons and Erin Lichy join Danielle to reflect on the reinventions that shaped them, as women, creatives, and public figures. From family rituals to the pressures of perfection, online criticism, and the surprising freedom of letting go, they share what it really takes to stay grounded when the world is watching. Jenna and Erin share:

• How childhood food experiences shaped their adult relationship to cooking 
• Why perfectionism keeps so many women from hosting, and how Erin’s weekly Shabbat dinners taught her to “unbutton” and welcome people in without fear.
• What it’s really like to reinvent yourself on reality TV, including dealing with internet trolls, losing control of the narrative, and showing up authentically anyway.
• The wild story behind Jenna’s lash brand failure, including moldy packaging, a delayed launch, and losing Target as a customer, and why she now sees it as her biggest business lesson.
• How being an outsider can shape empathy and taste
• Why female friendship matters as adults, and how their bond formed not through glamor but through vulnerability
• The refreshing style advice about creating a signature look 
• What makes a great leader or creative, plus why you should hire people smarter than you

Follow Jenna and Erin on Instagram @jennalyonsnyc and @erindanalichy

Check out Erin’s book She’s a Host

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
No one has all the answers, but when we ask
the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths,
closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come
together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not?

(00:28):
And who says so? Come curious, dig deep, and join
the conversation. It's time to question everything. There are moments
in life when who we are or who we're becoming
starts to come into sharper focus. Sometimes it happens quietly,

(00:49):
in the choices we make when no one is watching
and for a small group of people. Sometimes that shift
happens in public, under the scrutiny of strangers in rooms
they never expected to be in, or through a career
that takes on a life of its own. Our guests
today are Real Housewives of New York stars Jenna Lyons
and Aaron LEECHI. Of course, if you're a Bravo Hollick,

(01:14):
you know Jenna recently revealed that she's leaving the show
full disclosure, We filmed this episode before she made that announcement.
So you'll notice that there's no mention of that in there,
but if you listen closely to how Jenna speaks, it
kind of makes perfect sense that she's setting up for
her next big chapter. Both Jenna and Aarin have explored
what it means to evolve in circumstances privately and very

(01:35):
very publicly, so in this interview, Jenna and Aaron talk
about ambition, identity, being misunderstood, and the excruciating and sometimes
necessary heartbreak of letting go of something that you've built.
We also touch on building community, which Aarin knows all about.
She's the hostess with the mostess type, hosting weekly Shabbat

(01:57):
dinners for her family, which she writes about in her
new book, She's a Host, an unbuttoned cookbook for elegant entertaining.
I've been to one of her dinner parties, and I
can tell you firsthand she's an expert. It's actually where
I met Jenna a few nights before we recorded this episode.
Picture this tables, layered with soft linens and candlelight, food

(02:18):
that feels both elevated and comforting. The title of her book,
She's a Host, was etched in Flower on the Sour
dough bread. The music was low enough for real conversation,
and everything was impossibly relaxed yet unmistakably considered. Aaron moves
through the room the way only great hosts do, present
without hovering. You feel taken care of without ever feeling managed.

(02:41):
You know, and while our housewives know a lot about
fashion and fame, we're circling a different set of questions
in today's episode, questions like what does belonging really mean?
How do you reinvent yourself personally and professionally, and where
do you find the courage to be yourself in a
world that's hell bent on convincing you to conform. It's

(03:03):
time to question everything with Jenna Alliance and Aaron Lee Chee. Okay,
I have a random question before we really start our interview,
which is we're in New York, it's raining, and you
guys always look good. I don't understand, coming from La

(03:23):
how people look good in New York because your hair,
you can't wear nice shoes, Like everything becomes a mess.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
We're just used to it, like it's just dirty and
disgusting in New York half the time.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
So I mean, I also think there's probably plenty of
moments where it's not coming together and you have maybe
not seen them.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
But we wear a lot of denim and a lot
of boots, and that's what you need when it's raining.

Speaker 3 (03:43):
She's wearing boots, I'm wearing shoes I don't care about.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, there you go. Yeah, Like there's no sexes this weather.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
It's also like you choose your moments for uber and
walking right totally.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
I Ubert and I still was like, I'm also on
a tear and I'm losing my voice and like this
is the end of it.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
You're on a tear because you just launched a cook
I just launched call. She's a host that's right behind you.
I love that the recipes in there mean so much
to you, so much. You are a great cook. I'm
sure you had tons of recipes to sort through. How
are you deciding.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
I wanted to include my go to It's like the
things that I actually make often, so that's kind of
how I just picked it. There are some other ones
that are, you know, less common, like to beat, which
is like beats with meatballs. I don't make that all
the time because it takes a really long time. But
most of the stuff in there I'm making like at
least a couple times a year.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
Who did you learn how to cook from.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
My grandmother's but mostly my maternal grandmother. She literally lived
in the kitchen, like I always tell this story. When
she was like in her nineties, she lived in a
house in Queen's on Jewel Avenue, and she couldn't keep
going up and down the stairs because her room was
on the second floor. So she literally had this like
small room off the kitchen that she put a bed in,
and that's where she lived for like the last four

(04:54):
or five years of her life in the kitchen. Where
was this here New Queens in Queen's. Yeah, where my
mom grew up in the house my life grew up.
So she just loved it. Wasn't that she loved, That's
just what she did. Like she was just a big
grandma that cooked all the time.

Speaker 3 (05:09):
It is such a way to bring joy though, like
a way to connect, such a way I wish I
had that. I did not have any cooking in my
house growing.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
I know my mom.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
She was a single mom and she's a piano teacher,
so her workday started when the kids came home from school.
So as soon as I came home from school, I
had to be in my room quite like, we couldn't
make any noise, and she couldn't be in the kitchen
because she was teaching, and she would teach until like
eight o'clock. So Lean cuisine was really cisy, I do.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
I used to like it.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
I had a lot of it. I know there's a
tunicastrole that might go to which is so discussing?

Speaker 1 (05:40):
Okay, serious question. What was your relationship to food? Like?

Speaker 3 (05:43):
Because of that, I didn't realize how strange a relationship
I had to food until I had a child. It
wasn't like food wasn't in the house. It wasn't about
rations or anything like, but it was just there wasn't
food or snacks. We didn't have any of that stuff.
So I just never ate a lot and the food
wasn't amazing. So with my brother and I like my brother,
if you see, he's like a bean pole. And I

(06:05):
grew up really thin, not like underfed, just like not
interested because it wasn't good.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
It wasn't a thing.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
It wasn't like something exciting. I didn't really get into
food until I moved to New York and started to
experience the best food, the best food, and also a
range of food like I didn't have that when I
was growing up. We had pizza loaf. Is disgusting.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
What's pizza loaf?

Speaker 3 (06:24):
It would be macaroni with cheese and pasta sauce port
over it and then put I've never even heard of
Well that was I think my mother might have made
it up.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
I don't really know pizza loaf. That's really funny. Yeah,
I bet you could make that good.

Speaker 3 (06:35):
I'm sure it could be done beautifully, like mac and
cheese can be done. It was like a version of
mac and cheese.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Try that.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
Any adventurous It's so interesting. If I had had schnitzel
like you are growing up, I probably would have eaten
a lot more.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yeah, I understand that.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
Even in Chicago, I wasn't really privy to all these
different types of food. It wasn't until I started coming
to New York that I ate Jamaican food and Brazilian food.
But it's such a melting pocket, you know, I'm like
starving so aarin. The subtitle on your book says Unbuttoned
Cookbook for Elegant entertaining. What does unbuttoned mean in the

(07:12):
context of hosting it means.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
That things don't have to be perfect to have a
beautiful gathering, and that's really sort of the crux of
the book. I feel like people get really nervous about hosting,
and the more I'm on this tour, the more I
hear that people will get nervous and they want things
to be the right way and perfect this, that and
the other. But it doesn't need to be that way,
and it shouldn't be a reason that people don't get
together or host or have people over. I feel like,

(07:37):
you know, we should live life a little looser.

Speaker 3 (07:40):
I think the thing that I remember when I first
met Erin is like she does shabot dinner every Friday.
It's not possible for everything to be perfect every week,
and it's family, and I think having that as part
of a ritual, I think really does make it feel
just easier and less precious and performance based. Whereas like
it's a great point, feel I don't do it that often.
So I'm like, if I'm gonna have people over for dinner,

(08:00):
everything has to be perfect, and so then I don't
ever do it because.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
You're a great host. Let's talk about her tablescape. Its
just a tablescape sheeese, and you had Brandon cooking, see.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
But I was nervous and I had someone else cooking.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (08:16):
I would wish that I could actually have people over
casually and say come over and be able to whip
something up like you can. You and Cass have people
over and like you, just we don't have dinner parties.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Like I would.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
What's the barrier for you? Is it vulnerable?

Speaker 3 (08:28):
It's like I don't feel confident in the kitchen. I
don't feel like I could actually make something that would
feel good.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
It's a setup. I don't know. It's got to work.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
And I think it's having people in your home. I
feel like a sense of responsibility. It is intimidating.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
You're a good guess, though, well, like you showed up
to Aaron's early slash on time on top.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
I left, but then she left.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
That's okay, it's okay. We were wrapping up anyways. And
I think there's qualities to being a good guess. I
don't like when people like not gracious guests.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yes, I agree.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
What do you think it takes to be an inviting,
warm host? What have you seen? Especially if somebody is
a beginner, I think just.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
Being easy about it, honestly, like come sit, like have
a snack, just you know, being easy about it, not
being so rigid.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
You have that personality though, like I'm more like Jenna
and I'm like I need everything perfect or I'm not
doing it.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
I have that signed to me too, you know. But
I think that that's a great point when you said
about shabat. I really do, because it's like training. I'm
like in boot camp every week you are.

Speaker 3 (09:30):
But I remember watching you and like I saw some
of it on this show and I'd never been to one,
but I could just see you moved through it quite
easily and everyone understood what was happening. Everyone was there
for the same reason. Everyone was there to just be
there and celebrate and be family. I think that kind
of paved the way for you to be's.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
I've never thought about it, it's so true. I think
it's just because it's such common practice, and it's like
people are just in and out and have these big
dinners and it's just what we do every ready. It's
just what we do.

Speaker 3 (09:59):
It's nice for the too, because I think they just
come to expect love it. I'm going to sit with
my family every Friday night, and that is not negotiable.
And yeah, I feel like that's one thing I wish
I had done better with my son, is like creating
a ritual where it's like every week, at some point
during the week, we have a dinner and you have
to sit with us. You can't go out and hang
out with your friends. And I didn't grow up with it,
so I didn't create it, and I see it and

(10:21):
it's really amazing.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
I think that's the real beauty of Shabbat. I really donah,
because even when we were in high school, like when
we all wanted to start going out and stuff, we
knew that we had to be there for dinner and
if we really wanted to go out after, like usually
we were full and we would have wine with like
our families, so we'd be like, okay, we're fine, like
we don't actually want to go out, but it was
just like we knew there was no day night like

(10:43):
you have to be there for Shabbat.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
I've been thinking a lot about how our upbringings shape
us more than we even know. Like, I think your
family traditions have shaped so much of who you are
in terms of cooking and hosting and even like the
way that you curate your home. Do you feel like
having a mom who was a piano teacher, Like are
you musical at all? Like how did it shape you?

Speaker 3 (11:07):
My mom's on the spectrum, and so there wasn't a
lot of intimacy with my mom. So I don't have
anything that's sort of representative of what I grew up
with other than the faults, which are like not being
a good host feeling, you know, like those kinds of
things that aren't you know, meaning an easy host maybe
is better. It doesn't come naturally to me. And I
think I played piano, but my mom couldn't teach me

(11:28):
because it was well I did. I don't think I
could do it anymore. Yeah, maybe I could remember like
two songs, it was too hard because my mom couldn't
teach me because she was so hard on me. So
I ended up having another teacher who made these fucking
incredible brownies that I will never forget. That's the one
I give me. It's sweet and I'm happy, But I
don't think I have a lot of the same like

(11:49):
community and that way. It's also I didn't have a
big family like see Aaron's family it's extended. There's sisters
and brothers, and then there's you know, the kids coming
into it. It's like a whole crew. And that's really
think amazing.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
The other side of it, and this is something that
I've realized recently. We touched upon it a little bit
at the dinner, is that it's a lot, and so
sometimes like my cup is so full and I don't
even think to make time for myself. And I really
learned this when I was dealing with grief and until
my body was reacting to it, and you really do
need to take time for yourself. And so like, it's

(12:23):
great that I have this big family and all these things,
and like I work a lot, and it's beautiful. I'm
very grateful. I'm so happy that I have this life.
But on the other side, if you don't take a moment,
like I started meditating and journaling. Never in my life
what I think that I would do such a thing
like journaling. I was talking to Jeff Lewis about it
and he was like, please don't tell people that I

(12:44):
was cracking up. It's so not on brand for me.
But it like it's helping because I'm able to like
release this stuff. That I didn't even know was there. So,
you know, as beautiful as it is, you have to
remember yourself. You know, you really do like I am
the most important person to me, and I forget that

(13:04):
when I have all these other people to take care
of all the time.

Speaker 3 (13:06):
It's like the thing they say on the airplane is
like put your gas mess on first, because you can't
help somebody if you're not breathing.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
So but you forget, at least I forget.

Speaker 3 (13:13):
Oh, for sure, when I had a big job, I
would see it, and to your point, it would show
up in ways that were like headaches or like my
ankle swelling or things that were like I didn't even realize,
And then when I looked at it, I was like,
I actually haven't taken a night off, or I haven't
had a good night sleep, or I haven't been like
not trying to be on performance line like in months.
It's at such a bay at you.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
For sure, you guys met when Ronie was rebooted for
its fourteenth season, and one of the things I noticed
is that you were both kind of reinventing at that time.

(13:57):
Did the experience stack up to what you thought it
would be or was it totally different the reinvention or
the show.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
The show. I think the show's impact was great. I'll
speak for myself, but I think for both of us,
I think like the visibility and just like for me,
I wasn't in the public eye you were, I really
was not. So I went from like three thousand followers
on Instagram in private to like having a full following
was very like new for me. But I think that's

(14:24):
been great and I feel good in this space. The
show experience itself was challenging because of just certain personalities
that were just hard. But I think like the impact
of the show is great.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
Do you feel like it did help you reinvent in
some ways?

Speaker 2 (14:40):
Totally? I mean my career really changed. I've always been
a businesswoman, so like that wasn't going away. It was
just the way in which I was doing business. Yeah,
And I think what I realized was it's going to
be really difficult to be on TV and be in
the media and be in the service based industry. And
I was an interior designer and I was selling real estate.
I was like picking out screws and handle like I

(15:03):
was very involved in any project. Now I still manage
actually for clients that I did their projects before with
my team, but I just knew that I would need
something to sell and that's where mescalone was born.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
Jenna, I read that Andy Cohen said to you before
you started the show. Once you're on the show, you
cannot hide. The fandom is gigantic. How does being known
from reality TV versus being known from other parts of
your life? How is it different or similar?

Speaker 3 (15:32):
I mean, I think the main difference is and I've
struggled with it a little bit. You know, before I
was known for like accomplishing something, for creating something, and
there was a sense of pride that I had done
something to earn that acknowledgment. This is really different because
I'm just on a TV show and I didn't necessarily
do anything. People are so nice and they're like, oh,
I love you, and like people say the same thing
when I was like, you Crow, I love your work.

(15:53):
But I think it still feels good, you know what
I mean, Like when someone comes up to you and says,
can I take a picture with you? Like it never
gets old. I'm so grateful. I feel so much like
appreciation and like pride because you're connecting with someone that
you've never met before. They're brave enough to come up
to you and say, I really like you, can I take.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
A picture with you.

Speaker 3 (16:12):
I appreciate it, like I will always appreciate it. It
feels good, and whether it's for a work I've done
or just because they actually are a fan of the show.
And there's been times where people really don't know who
I am. You know, They're like, I know you're on
the show, but they like, I don't really care. It's
all good, it's all upside, it's fun.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
That's funny.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
If they don't watch the show and they want to.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
There's been a few times where I can tell people
don't really know. They just like know right my mom my,
mom told me you're cute, and I'm like, Okay.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Has walking through the world change for you? With all
of the opinions in the beginning, Now, I just don't care.
I had already gone through a face.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
Sure, I didn't know.

Speaker 3 (16:48):
Yeah, I've been through the grind before where it was
hard for me.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
Really.

Speaker 3 (16:51):
I'd been outed in the press, I'd been talked about
in the press positively and negatively, and I realized that, like,
if you read it, it's just going to get in
your head, because if you read the good, your head
blows up, and if you read the bad, you start
to actually like think about it. And the fact matter
is people don't know you, and the number of people
who leave comments and they don't know anything about you.
Half the time they're misinformed or they misinterpret something and

(17:14):
they don't know the whole picture. I just don't read
any of it. I think for anyone who started it
was their first time getting a lot of negative feedback.
It's hard. If you read it, it can really get.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
To Yeah when you say it's hard, like where your
feelings hard? Were you crying to Abe?

Speaker 4 (17:27):
Like?

Speaker 2 (17:27):
What was I was just like what is happening? Like
why are people so mean? I just didn't understand it.
I was confused. I was like, why are they being
so mean? Like what did I do to anybody?

Speaker 1 (17:38):
You know?

Speaker 2 (17:39):
I think it just takes a minute to get used to.
And it's actually really upsetting because not for me, but
I remember it saying like this hurts me, and I'm
an established person with a husband and a family and
a business. Could you imagine what a high school kid
that is vulnerable? It actually broke my heart because because

(18:00):
I felt so sad for so many people that must
be going through this bullying. And people are like warriors
behind their computers and they are me and they're brutal.
And then you hear about like that boy who committed suicide.
It's a real problem, it really is. It's a real epidemic.
I think it's amazing that there are these charities now

(18:21):
and they're like real programs against it. And even that
Instagram has like teen accounts. I mean, people are waking
up to it. It's a scary place for a young
person that is, you know, vulnerable.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
I think in theory people feel like who cares? Like
you're living your life, you're on the show, your businesses
are thriving, but like it does hurt, and now.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
I'm just like, yeah, who are you little troll?

Speaker 3 (18:44):
Like you don't even have to Oftentimes when you go
and find the person, you're.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
Like yeah, it's like user five, four to six, yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
Exactly, or there's a picture of them and I'm like really, yeah,
someone made a comment about my boobs being out, and
then I went and looked at her and I'm like, oh,
those boots should never be out.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
Mine are fine, Like you can.

Speaker 3 (18:59):
Back up right exactly, people are, so it's oftentimes the
people who are not happy with themselves who told the
need to actually put someone down.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
So totally, yeah, is there something you think people misunderstand
about you because of TV? Do you feel misunderstood in
any way?

Speaker 3 (19:15):
I mean, I don't know if there's any overarching I
think I got it more from my past life in
my job, where people thought that I was like really
intense interesting, which I thought to.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
Tell anything about Jenna before because I just live under
a rock, but like, so not what I expected based
on what people told me about you when we first
started working together. Like legitimately, it was like she was
the Devilwars pradact and like very into Like no, not
you at all.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
And I heard that from other people and I was like,
I don't know where that wild.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
It was really not your personality.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
Well and it wasn't my personal not my job either,
but also fun that you were a professional and that
you expected things from your employees and like but.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
They were all amazing. It was like the the team
was incredible, Like I didn't need to be demanding in
that way because the bar and the caliber people that
were working there were incredible. And I was like so
honored to be working with them and the team left,
right and center. Everyone was amazing. So I never had
to like be one of those bosses who had to
sit down, and it just never happened. So I didn't

(20:19):
really understand ricking. But I remember really distinctly, you know,
I would interview people and I remember this woman came
from HR. HR was on the eleventh floor and my
office was on the fourteenth floor. Sage to walk up
if you came up the back, it was easier than
going all the way around, so they would walk up
the stairs at the back, and I remember this woman
got to my office and she was panting and I said,
are you okay? And she said, I'm just so nervous

(20:42):
and walking up the stairs. And I was like, just
sit for a minute. I'm going to go and i'm
going to answer a couple of things and i'll come
back and i'll give you a couple of minutes to sit.
And I came back and she was sitting there and
she was sweating, and she was like, I'm just so nervous.
And I think it's like when you touch a corner office,
a big job, a president title, all of a sudden,
people make assumptions about you, nothing to do with who
you are. They're just how they do right, And I

(21:03):
think the way that women, particularly women in power, are
portrayed in the media is that they are bitches totally.
So you're kind of fighting against something that you had
nothing to do with, the new place, the group. So
I think I've always been sort of pushing against that.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
I mean, we met at Aaron's dinner. Can I share
a story of what you did? You were so sweet.
So a lot of the people at the dinner knew people,
and I was new and at one point I was
just kind of like sitting by myself eating because people were.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
Chatting I'm fine, bad hosts Aarin, not at all. I'm fine.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
But Jenna saw me and went out of her way
and said to the person next to her, like, let's
include like open the conversation. And I think that says
so much about who she is. You didn't have to
do that, Like, I can't even imagine you being mean
in a corner.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
No, the same, not at all.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
That's wild.

Speaker 3 (21:49):
Yeah, I had nothing to do with me and large
to do with the idea of a woman who has
a title like that is probably a bitch. I think
it is more to do with that than I think.
And I think also the type pulled back hair and
glasses didn't help. And you know, like that would never
happen with a male boss. Absolutely never.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
Was that a choice? Were you like creating a brand?

Speaker 2 (22:08):
Not at all.

Speaker 3 (22:09):
I started wearing my hair because after I had my son,
when I was breastfeeding, every time I had my hair down,
he would grab it and pull on it, and so
I started putting it up because it was just too much.
The glasses just came from I needed them to read,
but I had to walk around four floors. It was
a full city block. So I was walking around all
day long and always on my phone and I would
look up and be on my BlackBerry when it first started,

(22:30):
and I kept falling up the stairs, meaning I was
going up the stairs and I would miss a step
and slide down because when you have readers on, it
focuses for your reading, and then I'd look up and
I would misjudge. And after the third time I fell
up the stairs, I was like, I have to get bifocals.
And once you have bifocals, I just wore them all
the time. So it just kind of happened. The two
things happened at the same time. And then the red
lip just came from looking really dead and tired one

(22:52):
day and the makeup artist he's like, let's just brighten
you up and put a bunch of blush and red
lip on me, and like that picture. Whatever happened that
one photograph became one that people really love and kept
using over and it just kind of happened. It wasn't
me trying to create a brand. I was so a
girl at that point too, and I wasn't gay at
this point, so I was girly and trying to be
what I thought men wanted and write, you know, the

(23:12):
long hair, you know, definitely not a red lip, definitely
not calculated.

Speaker 1 (23:16):
That's interesting to know that it was by accident. Jenna,
you've wanted to work in fashion since you were in
seventh grade. I read how is your relationship to the
fashion business changed over time? Are you still in love
with it?

Speaker 3 (23:27):
I think what I was always in love with was clothes,
and I still am. It wasn't the business. I didn't
know what the business was. I just loved sequence and flannel,
and I didn't understand the business part of it. When
I was young, I just wanted to make things, and
I liked the transformation that clothes can deliver, like the
way they can make you feel, you know, and that's

(23:48):
what drew me to that.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
Part of it.

Speaker 3 (23:50):
I wasn't interested in the industry per se. My relationship
with it has changed and I'm not a part of
it in the way I was. And that's really okay
with me. Like, I had my moment, and I'm really
grateful to be able to do something and have a
second act, you know, particularly at my age. It's not
something I ever expected, but it's been great. How do
you guys know when something has run its course business wise?

Speaker 2 (24:10):
Hmm?

Speaker 3 (24:11):
I think you kind of just now. I mean sometimes
it tells you from the outside. Any Yeah, and I
had we had kind of a crazy thing happened. There
was no choice. I didn't It would not have been
prudent to keep going, and I had to make a decision.
And sometimes it's got Sometimes it's the business itself.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
I mean, sometimes it's both.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
In my case, it was both for your handbag line, yoursel.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, I knew it wasn't going to work out, and
also just the business was telling me that it was
no longer a viable option at all.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
And do you ever feel like it's not going to
work out, like, for instance, with the handbags, it's not
going to work out because you didn't care enough to
make it work out, Like this is not where my
passion lies.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
I think both. I think after a while I started realizing,
like a couple of years in that like this wasn't
for me. And I think also just like it was
a really hard business, like leather handbags, it's really hard business,
like you you need to have a connection in the
fashion world. I think most designers now really either they're
incredibly talented and it's an unusual unicorn, or like they're

(25:09):
being fed into the fashion world.

Speaker 3 (25:12):
It's also it's unusual, and the handbag business in this
country is so status driven, so they are often drafting
off of an apparel line. So in absence of that,
it requires you to do so much to be able
to compete. And sometimes that's the moment where it's like
a zeitgeist moment where someone wears it and that kind
of changes things. But if you're just doing it on

(25:32):
your own, it's just so hard to break through.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
And we did have those moments where people would wear them,
and it was in the press and some of the
bags were really beautiful. But then I had to make minimum.
And then I was moved over to China, and I
didn't know what I was doing. So I was making
all these bags sitting on inventory literally because of death
in business, sitting on inventory that's not moving. Figuring out
where to sell it, like it was really hard, but

(25:54):
we learned everything of what not to do, and it
was really the best experience, honestly.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
Because now you know what to do and what to
look for so much.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
So, I mean, Abe was doing the business with me,
and when we decided to start mys galoom, like we
really knew what we were doing. Like, we really knew
what we were doing. We were raising money, not putting
our own money into it. We knew who to hire,
we knew when to ask for help, we knew what
we needed, and we knew what we didn't. We knew
where to spend the money. It just felt different, and
you can only learn that by doing it. I really

(26:24):
don't think you can learn it.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
But it's so true, this idea of a business not working.
I think people don't realize when you look at people
who are entrepreneurial and who do things. Everyone has had
one total pocket. There's not a single person I know
who has done something and hasn't taken a risk and failed.
If you don't feel, you don't learn and there's nothing
wrong with it, But there's this weird kind of connotation
around like, oh it didn't work out. It's like, yeah,

(26:45):
but I learned a lot.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Almost every single masterclass I
would listen to in the very beginning of having my business,
like the first one, people were saying, trust your gut
and failure is good. And these are like you know,
CEOs of big companies that were saying this, and I
remember feeling like, Okay, this does fail, it's okay, And
that's when I was finally able to let go of it.

Speaker 3 (27:05):
I think when I was doing a rayse, you start
to talk to people who are in that business, who
are used to people raising money, and what's so interesting
is that they're just so used to things, like they're saying,
I've invested in ten things too have popped, and you're like, okay, right.
People expect things don't all go smoothly. And I think
we particularly I know as women like have this incredible

(27:26):
desire to not fail. You want to prove yourself. You
feel like it's more important for me. When I had
to close Love scene, it there was like a shame
attached to it. And then once I got through it,
I was like, why am I doing this myself? Because
there was nothing I could have done to change the outcome. Like.
It wasn't because I wasn't passionate. It wasn't because I
didn't love it. It was a manufacturing and then a
situation that happened that I couldn't undo and the fix
would take too long. We don't have to go into

(27:48):
it too deeply, but I made a choice that I
thought was the right one. I made a choice to
make the packaging out of bagas, which is sugarcane pulp,
and long story short, we had a huge order and
the order was set to deliver right when the show
is to launch, and the factory had stored the product
in an unclimatized space because they'd only ever wrapped things
in plastic, and the product grew mold and they couldn't

(28:08):
ship it, and so then it was late. And then
our biggest account, which was Target, who placed a massive
order that we had already paid for long story, short makeup,
saying we're going to fix it. We're going to fix it,
and Target was like, we can't work like this. It
took more than four months for the product to end
up being ready and they were like, this doesn't work.
And then we lost our biggest account and I knew
that I couldn't make up the difference in that volume.

(28:30):
I would have had to have seven hundred accounts to
make up for that volume and then hire a bunch
of people to actually service them.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
It was just not happening.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
Breaking.

Speaker 3 (28:37):
It was also a slow heartbreak, like I just kept
thinking it was going to be okay, it was going
to be okay, it was going to be okay, and
it just wasn't. And finally I had to make a
call and be like this is not like I was
just literally it was on life support.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
And you know what's beautiful about you telling the story
now is that failure can happen at any point Like here,
you are a very successful business woman. You've had many
successes and you know, many wins, and then you started
a business and it didn't work out even now, and
that's okay, And I think.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
That what you just said earlier. Is like you start
to realize all the places where I could have tuned in,
I probably should have grown a little slower.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
I think that both of you and I look at
your career trajectories, You've both bet on yourselves a lot,
and sometimes in ways that could be scary. Even joining
the show, you were kind of going and blind. That's
a bet on yourself. Is there a moment in your
life where you feel like you bet on yourself before
anybody else did?

Speaker 2 (29:38):
Just every day?

Speaker 3 (29:39):
I would be lying if I said that. I think
when I was younger, I wasn't betting on myself. I
was betting on working hard. I never in a million
years thought I would have the career in life i've had.
Never I thought I was going to be a designer,
and I was just hopeful that I would make over
one hundred thousand dollars a year and be able to
afford to buy a house some day. Like I just
didn't think that I was going to get that. I
didn't come f money. I didn't dream that way because

(30:02):
I didn't see it and I didn't think it was possible.
And again, I grew up in a small town far
away from New York. There was no Internet, so I
didn't know what all the options were. I just was like,
I knew about designers. I knew that there was Donna
Karen and Liz Claiborne and Calvin Klein, and was like,
could I be one of them? And I didn't think
I'd get famous, but I just wanted to make clothes.
So I don't know if I was betting on myself.

(30:22):
I think I was just like, I'm going to work
as hard as I can and hopefully have fun along
the way, and it turned out better than I expected.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
When did your ambition start to feel like it was crystallizing.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
There's little things that happen when you're young, like the
first promotion in someone saying you're doing a really good job,
and you're like, oh, maybe I actually am okay, Like
maybe I'm good at this. Because it's one thing to
be good at it and like it. It's another thing
for it to actually be financially viable. And there is
a real nuance to that. You know, there's a lot
of people who are incredibly creative but can't turn that
into something. And so I think when the mix of

(30:54):
seeing the work or things that I had developed or
made be successful and you know, be one of the
best selling items. It's like people who are voting for you,
loving your product as a customer is really I mean,
I remember distinctly standing in the middle of JFK Airport
when I just landed and standing at baggage claim, and
there must have been like seven double cloth coats, which
is a coat that I designed and found the fabric,

(31:16):
developed the fabric the whole nine yards, and I remember
just seeing all these women wearing the coat and they
all looked great, and I was so proud, awesome, it
was really nice.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
That's a great feeling.

Speaker 3 (31:25):
That's where you start to think like, oh, it's rewarding.
It's like the ambition comes from feeling like you can
actually achieve something and seeing it play out in real time,
and that's exciting. That's why I like making things. It
is very nice to be able to produce something like
having a book something so that you can share with people.
I did that, you know, And I could even see
when we were at a dinner party recently and Aaron

(31:45):
was talking about her mess column, She's like, that's mine,
and your face lights up, and it's like nice when
you have this thing that you've made. It's really a
very different experience than working in finance, you know, where
you don't have something as physical.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
It's because we're creative, and it's like when you can
envision something and it's in your mind and then all
of a sudden, it's like there.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
This is kind of a deep question, but I am
very curious about the answer. So you've built a business
around curating homes and now you're in a world that
is constantly deconstructing your life at every turn. How do
you stay in control of your own story when reality
TV is kind of designed to take it away from you?

Speaker 2 (32:21):
You don't short answer, You don't stay in control of
your own story. You got to go with it. You
just have to go with it. You have to be
your authentic self. That's how you stay in control of
your own story. First of all, you can't control it all.
But if you are who you truly are on and
off camera, you can stay in control because you're not
changing anything about it. It's your story if it's really you,

(32:44):
and I feel really strongly about that. I feel really
strongly about being myself on camera because when I agreed
to do the show, it was to do a reality show,
not a scripted TV show, and I felt like I
really wanted to be fully myself and show up that way,
and so I really try to do that. You know,
it can be challenging with certain people that you know,

(33:06):
we'll try to manipulate stories or get mad at you
or whatever. But I think for the most part, if
you do that, people respond.

Speaker 1 (33:14):
As I'm hearing you say that, I'm like, Okay. Maybe
that's why people go off the rails is they try
to control.

Speaker 3 (33:19):
It and they can't, or they try to produce it
to make it a story and it can't do the
shows it all shows to see through it like it's
not people see through it.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
It's not entertaining, it's not.

Speaker 3 (33:31):
But I also I agree with Aaron like the idea
that you can control at a macro level. They can
only make decisions about you based on what you see,
So what you offer up and how you show up
at every given turn is really all they have. So
it's you know, while you can't control it, you can
just be yourself. And then if somebody wants to make
a cracket who you are as a person and with

(33:52):
what little they know of you from a TV show,
then they can have their fund right.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
It's like totally have about it.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
Jenna, do you feel like you have any style advice
that applies to both fashion and life. I'll give you
an example. I asked Carla Welch this and she said,
where the dress, meaning like, we're that fancy special dress
you have that you're like waiting for a special occasion.

Speaker 3 (34:12):
I mean, I'm always so apprehensive to give advice because
I think it's so often misinterpreted, and I feel like
what works for me is not necessarily going to work
for someone else. I think the only thing I would
say is that you can always tell when someone gives
a genuine compliment, Like you can feel it when someone's
like you look great, and pay attention to what you're
wearing that day, because I think there's this feeling that

(34:33):
people have to change and be different all the time,
and I do think it's like things work for people
and having an identity and having a perspective of like
this is who I am and how you show Actually
there's something really nice about that, And it doesn't mean
you have to have a uniform, but like it kind
of creates a narrative around you unless you be yourself
and I think there's certain things that people look really
great in. I mean, Kim Kardashian is a perfect example,

(34:54):
and you can like her love her, that's on the point.
But if you close your eyes, you can sort of
picture something with her. The same thing when you think
about Annie Holt, you close your eyes and you can
picture a sense of style. And I think it's nice
when people develop their own thing. It doesn't matter what
it is. Kim Kardashian and Andy Hawk Dian Katon couldn't
be more different, but they both have something that is
specifically distinct. Yeah, and I think there's something really nice

(35:14):
about that, and it doesn't need to change over time.

Speaker 1 (35:17):
Do you guys subscribe to the three word rule? There's
this girl on Instagram forgot her name, but she says, like,
you have to pick the three words for your style,
and then that way, when you go into a store,
you know like is it hot Italian? You know, like
whatever it is, it tailored.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
And I feel like those kinds of things are gimmicks.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
I mean, I really do. There are probably three words
to describe both of us.

Speaker 3 (35:39):
But like the idea that I would go into a
store thinking about it, I would never like it just
would never occur to me. I also, if there's a
white shirt rack, I will find it.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
Do each other's what are the three words?

Speaker 2 (35:50):
Okay, okay, yours because it's easy tailored tomboy and she, oh,
thank you.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
That was a good role.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
I would say Aaron's is she's always got a sultry
part of her.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
You do.

Speaker 3 (36:04):
You're good at sharing skin but not too much, which
I appreciate. You have something I like, which is you
can do glamour, but you also do incredibly good like
sort of an authentic casual, which I think is really nice.
Like there is like a real like I don't know
what the word is, and I should be better at
this because.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
This is my job.

Speaker 3 (36:20):
But no casual is because she does both. But you
also love a good glam like you do do a
good glam like. There's a sultry you can do sultry
glam and sultry casual, which I think is also hard
to do like that because I think even when you're
casual and when you're glam, there's still that kind of
quiet sultry like you're never overtly sexy. You're not wearing

(36:40):
a push up braw you don't have that kind of
overly plumped vibe, which I appreciate that, but I think
there's a sultiness. Oh you can absolutely get your boobs,
but I want to lift, I want to plant. Where
are they going to take the jump from? You got
nothing to dunk? You're more Yeah, yeah, you could fatten
yourself up.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
I might.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
That's actually not a bad idea.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
I maybe I'll just do that.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
So, Jenna, I was reading that you were teased mercilessly
yes as a kid, which hurts my heart.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
And then you went into fashion, which is interesting to me.
I know you loved clothes, but fashion is not known
to be the kindest industry. Like that's where like the
cool kids go.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
You're a lot younger than I am, so you have
to understand I didn't know any of this when I
was young, Like, I just thought I was going to
work in a design room somewhere and be of service
to another brand. I didn't understand the industry. There was
no access to the industry when as a kid, all
I knew was that I liked making clothes and I
liked the transformative power of clothes. It was the only
time that I had positive feedback was when I would

(37:41):
make something. And so for me, it wasn't like I
was scared of the industry. I didn't know what the
industry was about. There was no Devilware's Prada, there was
no Insta.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
I had no idea.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
Do you think being an outsider makes people a taste maker?

Speaker 2 (37:55):
No?

Speaker 3 (37:55):
I think being an outsider makes you more attuned and
makes you a little bit more. I mean, I think
it's the reason, Like when I saw you sitting there
by yourself, being left out is like one of those
things for me really does something to me. Like the
last person you know to be picked at a dance,
the person who never got picked to be on a team,
like the person who didn't get picked to be in
the photograph, Like I get all taken by those things.

(38:16):
And so for me, I was just looking to do
something that I loved that I could feel like I
had a place in. But I didn't understand like that
it was the cool kids area.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
I never expected to be in that room.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
And honestly, it was always an outsider even when I
was at j Crue, Like I wasn't like one of
the designers, Like I wasn't the friends of boys or
you know, I never felt completely on the inside, but
I still love it. But again, I love the clothes,
Like the industry is not what it's about for me.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
What do you think are the habits that make a
great executive a great creative?

Speaker 3 (38:45):
I would say creative is being curious. If you are
not curious about whatever is new and whatever is happening,
and whether it's art or fashion or architecture, being curious
about the world of design in general, I think helps.
And in terms of being an executive, I think it's
like getting out of the way. I think the biggest
mistakes I've made in being you know, instead of leadership,

(39:07):
was always trying to do too much and not like
giving people space to do it themselves. I think it's
a hard thing to learn that balance of encouraging people,
giving them room, supporting them, versus telling them what to do.
And I think in my early years particularly, I was
a little too didactic and you know, sort of micromanaging,
and that does not work. It does not give people wings,

(39:27):
it does not inspire them. And I really had to
learn how to step back and like give people confidence,
tell them that they're great, and like say let's keep
going and see what they're capable of. And it was
a hard lesson to learn.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
It seems hard in every way because you give too
much leniency and things don't go the way you need
them to.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
And then, yeah, I mean it's a learning curve for sure.
I mean, I think it's also about team and I
think the most important lesson I remember was hire people
who are smarter than you. Hire people who fill a
void that you don't have. You know, I remember really
distinctly someone saying, Oh, I don't want to hire this
girl because she could have my job. I'm like, no,
that's exactly the person you should hire, because that that
means is that she's so good that then you can
take on new things. But if you don't ever have

(40:06):
a really capable team underneath you, but how are you
going to do anything new? And so I think that
fear sometimes when people like don't want to be overshadowed.
It's like, let someone overshadow you, You're going to actually
have room to do other things. It's okay, but I
think people get scared. I saw men were much better
at it than women, and I hate to gender, but
it was something I saw as well, Like women aren't
taught the same way to kind of band together in business.

(40:28):
I think it's changed, but when I was coming up,
it was definitely more like the guys were all together
and the girls were all trying to beat each other.

Speaker 2 (40:35):
It was so strange.

Speaker 3 (40:36):
Again, it's changed somewhat, but I remember so distinctly from
when I was young.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Yeah, you were working in fashion at a very particular time.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
It was the nineties. I mean, I'm in a different
place in my business, and I think what I've learned
works really well is having systems in place and having
organization in that way. And I think, you know, like
watching over my staff at my school and also the
girls that just for me personally, if they all know
what the systems are, they can do great on their own.

(41:07):
So I like to put systems in place, and I
have like a lot of processes in ways that we
do things, and then they kind of just shine. Yeah,
And I think it is good to get out of
their way.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
I mean, I think but depending clear roles and responsibilities
helps you get out of their way. I think in
absence of that it can be really hard.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
Yeah, I think having clarity and I like to also
have a lot of communication, like weekly meetings, I'm talking
more of like the micro level, but I like to
have weekly meetings. I like to do like progress reviews
things like that because it helps people feel responsible, I think,
for what they're doing, and value too, because then they
get to have conversations with me and I'm like, you

(41:44):
did such a great job at that marketing campaign, Like
that was amazing, Let's work on this and that. I
think people just feel good being seen and talk to.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
You're such a warm, familial person. Do you feel like
it's hard to toe the line with employees or do
they become part of your family? How does that work?

Speaker 2 (42:13):
I think it's a little bit of both. I think
that I've learned a lot over the years. I think
it used to be harder for me, and now like
I've just grown up so much in business that I
feel like it's a clear line, but it still is family,
you know. Like I even have this new assistant that
I'm working with, and she was like out with my
brother last night, and I was like, stay, you can

(42:34):
come a little bit late. It's fine hang out with Dannie.
But she knows that she's texting me in the morning
and saying, like, here's your schedule, So like I think
that it's hard, but I think you can be both.
You can still have dinner with them and treat them
like family, but also have them realize that there's still
a role here and there's a job to be done,
but we're working a lot. It's really funny because this

(42:55):
girl who just started working for me was like, I
would never have thought that you worked as much as
you do. She was like shocked. She's like watching you
and like seeing you on the show and like seeing
you on Instagram, Like I just thought you had so
many people doing things for you, and I didn't know
that you work all day long, like NonStop, like well,
welcome to the club working, you know, like people don't realize.

(43:15):
It's so funny.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
I think Instagram has been confusing because you know, you
post like the finished product and not the journey oftentimes. Yeah, okay,
I want to do some rapid fire questions with you guys.
Your favorite New York tourist trap.

Speaker 3 (43:32):
I like the tree lighting at Rockfeller Center. Oh yeah,
you would, It's really magical. I would, but I'd really
love it. It does a magical moment.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
That's a great one. Central Park great one too. Okay,
what's one thing that success in money can't.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Buy family love.

Speaker 3 (43:48):
Yeah, I mean I would say the same cuddles, cuddles babies.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
What's something you used to see as a weakness that
turned out to be a strength.

Speaker 3 (43:55):
I would certainly say not feeling pretty. I think in
the end was the thing that turned out to be
a strength.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
I don't know. I have to think about that. I'll
come back to it. Okay.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
A piece of financial advice you wish you knew twenty
years ago.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
Don't rent by I really I bought as soon as
I possibly could, and so many people don't.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
Don't blow all your money from your wedding. Try to
invest it somewhere else, into your own business like an
idiots it all.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
What's a book that changed your life? Something you think
everybody should read?

Speaker 3 (44:25):
The Law of Attraction? Read it like six times? Mine's happiness?

Speaker 2 (44:30):
What is it?

Speaker 3 (44:30):
Happiness?

Speaker 1 (44:31):
I haven't heard of that.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Maybe I'll send it to Wow, I never heard of it.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
Okay, beautiful. The smartest decision you've ever made, Mary, it's
a sweet one.

Speaker 3 (44:40):
I'd say moving to New York.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
I think moving is a bed on yourself totally.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
I just couldn't leave, though, because I'm just in the
best city in the world.

Speaker 3 (44:48):
But yeah, you were already here. You had encrupt here.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
It was just lucky.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
One thing that every woman should try once.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
These are harder. These are not quick firecus nod questions.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
You know. I was laughing when you said that because
I was like, no, they're rapid fire. I was like, oh,
this is rapid fire for me.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Every What was the question something that every woman should
try for themselves.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
Try?

Speaker 2 (45:09):
What would you say?

Speaker 1 (45:10):
I would say date or have a moment in time
with a guy or a girl that you feel like
you shouldn't be with, but you're pulled to, like go
have the affair totally.

Speaker 3 (45:22):
I was gonna say, have sex with the woman.

Speaker 2 (45:24):
I know you were going to say something sexual when
she was on the pod. Who Harris, it's funny. Oh man,
I never had sex with the woman.

Speaker 3 (45:32):
Well you got, but you still have some.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
I still have time. I mean, he'd love to he'd
love for me by a woman.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
Question everything, card game question.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
We just picked.

Speaker 1 (45:42):
Okay, to you, it's like taro, it was exciting.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
Are they shuffled? No? Okay? Is it a good one?

Speaker 3 (45:50):
I mean I have a good answer.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
It's a good question.

Speaker 3 (45:53):
Okay, Okay, My question, is the single best party you've
ever been to set the scene. I have the insane
in honor of being able to go to Schall Obama's
fiftieth birthday party at the White House? Who and Prince
played Stevie Wonder? I know it was insane. Stevie Wonder
Beyonce was crazy in a small room. It was not

(46:15):
a huge place, so it was actually in the ballroom
at the White House, which was very private. No phones,
which is like the death of me because I don't
have any visual proof and I've never seen anwy pictures
run it. But it was the most intimate. They danced
until three thirty in the morning. It was by far
one of the best experiences of my entire life.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
Have you written down all these like epic things? I
need a book of stories from you?

Speaker 2 (46:38):
I should, Okay, mine is what's something that felt super
brave in the moment? I'd say picking up and moving
to Peru after college?

Speaker 1 (46:48):
You moved to Peru?

Speaker 2 (46:49):
Yeah, I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 (46:50):
What made you do that?

Speaker 2 (46:51):
I don't know. At the point we graduated and we
were talking about graduation gifts and me and my girlfriend
were like, we want to go volunteer in Peru and
we just did. I love that and we traveled like
almost three months. So cool. Yeah, and living in Barcelona
to travel was brave and awesome and I would not

(47:12):
trade it for the world. It changed me.

Speaker 3 (47:14):
I also think you can't understand someone who's young now
when we were traveling back then, there was no GPS,
no cell phones. You had to use a map, you
had to like decide where you're going, and you had
to use a book. Like it just is so different today.
I think being brave back then was very different. You know,
traveling you were meeting people, you had no access to
do anything about their lives, and you weren't taking pictures

(47:36):
of them or selfies or like figuring out that you're
doing that. You had phones. Okay, so I'm older than you.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
I didn't.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
Aaron's like, this is not a wee thing.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
Yeah, I mean I had.

Speaker 4 (47:46):
Fought what was their GPS? Yeah, I mean not like
there is now, not like there is now. But it
was twenty ten, okay for eleven, Yeah, it was a phone.
I had an iPhone.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
I think thank you both so much for your time,
and Aaron, congrats.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
Thank you so much. You have to China Sencil.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good
day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.