Questlove Supreme: Big Lez

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio, Ladies.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
And Gentlemen, Our guest today is legend wait for it, Dairy. Seriously,
I am fanning out. Okay, just a brief, brief side note.
We are we're zooming this particular episode, so I'm looking

(00:31):
at it right now and I'm flustered. That's I'm fanning
out right here. Because she has been an unavoidable presence
in every aspect of my life, from those from those
legendary n. C. Martin videos from the early nineties and

(00:52):
early nineties kind of world Hint Hint, as a legendary choreographer,
as the host rat of the b Tea Staple Rap City.
One of the first times I was on the show
is because she's interviewing us. I mean, even her dancing
silhouette and the living single credits is etched in all

(01:13):
of our brains. As an actress, as a journalist, as
a fitness instruction, as a radio host on Dash Radio.
I'm certain I'm getting on her nerves.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Right now as a bad bitch.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yes, I cannot believe I'm saying this. Ladies and gentlemen,
please welcome big less Leslie. Wait, pronounce your last name
for because I always get it wrong everybody I always want.

Speaker 4 (01:36):
To say, I usually say cigar. As long as you
spell it right on the check, I don't even care.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
All right, no, because I was calling you sugar for
the longest. He used to always correct me. All right, Yes,
ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to Quest Love Supreme, Leslie
big Les Cigar.

Speaker 5 (01:55):
Thank you, yes, thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Oh I got this is amazing. So where are you
right now?

Speaker 4 (02:03):
I am in Los Angeles by myself and uh, you know,
trying to keep the sunshine, keep the smiling because it's
been crazy, between the protests, between you know, quarantining, it's
been an emotional rollercoaster. For real.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Wait, I was gonna say, right now, you seem like
you're ready. You're like camera ready for a red carpet, like.

Speaker 5 (02:25):
It's for real, for real.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
This is a casual flex for you, like you just
wake up in the morning.

Speaker 4 (02:30):
Like I wish, you know, our whole lives one zoom now,
So you know, I gotta look presentable at least a
little bit, at least from the waist up.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
I was gonna say, waist down. I still got my
old Navy underwear on.

Speaker 5 (02:43):
So yeah, yeah, what is your skincare regimen? Before we
can get into your career? What is your skincare regimen?

Speaker 4 (02:50):
What come on this genetic? Yeah? Okay, whatever side of
our team, So you know.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
Steve take notes.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
I wanna.

Speaker 5 (03:03):
I want to have that shine.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
Hr C.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
I want We ain't got no department.

Speaker 4 (03:12):
It's okay.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Hey man, I almost went down the ship earlier.

Speaker 4 (03:16):
So I'm so proud of everything that you're doing. Congratulations.
It's nice to meet all of y'all, and thank you
preaching out to me again. I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
Thank you.

Speaker 5 (03:29):
We've been trying to get you for a long time.
This has been one of our bucket list episode.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, it's definitely a bucket list movement.

Speaker 6 (03:35):
And it was nice to be able to walk up
to Big Lass and say can I have your nub
We'll be on our show and her go yes, of course.

Speaker 5 (03:40):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (03:42):
I'm so lonely everybody in their hang ups and I'm
just like, it is what it is. You know, that's
my brother right there. So you know good. Plus, you know,
if you really got to find somebody, I can hunt
you down. I can call hunt you down.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
You can find me, you can find me, So we
we basically at a course Love Supreme, go through the
journey of everyone's life. So I always start with question
number one and they tease me for it. Where were
you born?

Speaker 4 (04:11):
I'm from Queens, New York, East Elmhurst, Jackson Heights, Corona.
That's where I am born and raised. My family my
mom is from Augusta, Georgia. My father's family from Virginia,
but he's a New Yorker too, So.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
So what what was the environment like? Like normally on
the show, we have music figures, and you know, the
story either starts out in church or some sort of uh,
there's always some sort of entry that leads to music.
But for you, though, like what was your environment like

(04:44):
in Queens?

Speaker 4 (04:46):
It's it's interesting because you start off in a two
family household and then your parents get divorced. Came from
a middle class family. Literally, Like you know, every neighborhood
in Queens or New York really is a mixed neighborhood. Dominicans, Borricans,
go Lamias, Kuvano's, Jewish, Europeans, whatever, And that's kind of
what my neighborhood was. Even my high school was considered
like the United Nations of New York because everybody was

(05:09):
so mixed, and so even moving out to California and
people going or realizing that the only Latinos that they
were familiar with were just Mexicans. I'm like, what are
you talking about? What about the Epidorians, what about the legions?
But you know what I mean. So that's kind of
what I grew up around. And when my parents got divorced.
You know, my mom was very independent, very structured, very strict.

(05:33):
She didn't play no games. And I only moved two
blocks away from my father, so he was still like
in my life, I have an older sister. We don't
get along. We are like night and day. She's four
years apart, and you would think we grew up in
a completely different household, a miserable human being. But that's
a whole other chapter.

Speaker 5 (05:52):
Still to this day, like y'all still don't get along now.

Speaker 4 (05:54):
Oh no, not at all. We're actually in court over
some stuff. When my father thought, real, yeah, yeah, it's
like that to the point where her and my mother
don't even speak. So's it's you don't stop. When you
stop speaking to a parent, then you know there's a
problem that somewhere, and you know, but my parents. My

(06:15):
mom was an educated she went to nursing school, you know,
raising us me and her, my sister. And my dad
was he didn't finish high school, but he worked in
US medal. He was a good guy but turned out
to be an alcoholic. But he was really like one
of those calm alcoholics, you know what I'm saying, Very loving,
very friendly to everybody. But he just I think fell

(06:37):
into a depression really when my parents got divorced, which
is the irony of it, all right, because while out
and womanize and you do all these things. But I
don't think he ever healed from my mother finally leaving him,
and when my mom remarried, it's like the drinking intensified
for him. So as much as I love my father,
I always knew I didn't want a man like my father.
He was physically abusive, even though he was the nicest

(06:59):
man on the lot. It was that thing that happened.
And my mom even said, I don't know what happened
when he turned forty. He became somebody else. And I've
seen it happen even within the relationships of what happens
when men change, or that there are men that have
a broken history or something that kind of rears his
head somewhere down the line. Oh yeah, no, I mean

(07:21):
I think even for women too. I mean, you know,
whether they're going through menopause or all this other stuff.
It happens to both people at the same time. So
their mid life crisis and your hormones and everybody. You
don't recognize it. It becomes crazy. So when you see
that in your parents, you don't understand it until you
get there. But you know, I was very structured. I
was like in Girl Scouts, I was in gymnastics early.

(07:43):
I never missed a day of school in high school,
so I got like attendance awards. I was in honors
classes in third grade. I studied French for eleven years.
Like all these things that my mother made sure that
we were in, you know. And it's crazy because even
though I grew up in a mixed neighborhood, I literally
was like the black girl and mostly the only black
girl and everything. I was the only black girl in

(08:03):
my Girl Scout troop for seven years. I was the
only black girl on both my young gymnastic team and
my college gymnastic team. I was the only black girl
one of four and like all of my honors classes.
So it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
So when you're training for the gymnastics, in your mind,
is the goal like, okay, I might be an Olympic
hopeful or like or is it just to get college tuition?
Like when one enters the world of gymnastics, like what
are you aspiring for?

Speaker 4 (08:37):
Initially for me, it was because one I was a
tomboy and two I had too much energy. I couldn't
keep still, So my mother put me in trampoline class,
and like a month or two later, the guy was like,
she needs to be in gymnastics because you know how
you do all the street tumbling and all that other stuff.
But it was refined and literally within a year. I
started late. Most of didn't start when they're like two
and three. I started when I was ten, but by

(08:57):
the age of eleven I was competing in national competences.
So my mom made the switch. And at first it's
really you just are thinking week to week of beating
someone in the competition, right, you just kind of want
to be the first on bars, the first on floor.
You want to win. Overall, you want to win a
team because it's a team sport and it's an individual sport,
and it's interesting that as close as I am to

(09:18):
my coach, the coach, of course never signs up to
be anyone's parent, but you end up spending more time
with your coach than you actually do your parents who
are working all the time, or being a lash key
kid in New York. So I learned a whole lot
of structure from the rules of gymnastics, from showing up
and being in a team sport and being held accountable for,
you know, if I fall off a beam, or if
I show up late, or if I you know, did

(09:40):
thirty push ups instead of the fifty we were supposed
to do, like there was no cheating otherwise you're punished
as a group. So therefore you take accountability. And those
are the kind of things that have you structured or
going into this business. But it wasn't until you know,
you get older and you realize, okay, I'm not Olympic material,
because of course that's the goal. Then it was like, well,
I'm going to college. Now, let me see if I

(10:01):
can get a scholarship. And I was able to do that,
got a four year gymnastics scholarship, which was a blessing.

Speaker 6 (10:06):
Were you like a gymnastics head, Like I remember. It's
interesting because in the eighties gymnastics was kind of like
a thing, right, Like it was the Mary lou Retten,
Nadia Komaniche.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
And stuff like that.

Speaker 6 (10:16):
American anthem were like, were you like ahead, did you
become a fan of it?

Speaker 4 (10:19):
No? Absolutely, you know, wild world sports on Saturday, Gymnastic me,
gymnastic posters all around the room and the names escaping me.
But there were only like two black genasts that I
had seen come before me, you know.

Speaker 5 (10:32):
What I mean, girl the black that did that that
she did the black the backflip.

Speaker 3 (10:37):
Not Dominique Dolls because that.

Speaker 5 (10:38):
Was no, no, no, not Dominique Dolls. It's the other girl,
Syria Bonley were tripping.

Speaker 4 (10:45):
But it'll come to me.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
I was like, wow, I was like too, so I
was going to say, yeahie Thomas.

Speaker 4 (10:57):
Wait, but yeah, So it was you know, being a
black gymnast was really like being a unicorn for most people.
And then you get in high school. I only competed
on my high school team for one year because they
had really bad equipment and my private gym was just
like you're gonna get hurt, so they only let me
do it for one year, and that one year was

(11:19):
the year where they had like the Big Apple Games.
I won the whole region, you know, the whole thing,
and it was it was a blessing. And so when
I got my scholarship, it was like, shoot, you know,
your mother is like, thank God, all right, I don't
have to come out of my pocket anymore. You know.
It's that whole thing. You know, there weren't any HBCUs
that had gymnastics, so I literally, you know, and I
knew I was going to go out of state. Like

(11:40):
I only applied to like one New York school which
was upstate to Courtland, which was eight hours away. I
applied to Penn State, which I got into, and I
got a partial gymnastics scholarship and a partial academic scholarship.
But I got a full scholarship to Springfield College. So
that's what I took.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
So how did dancing into your life? Like, I mean,
at the end of the day, I mean, you've done
so many things, but like, what what was your aspiration
as a ten year old or an eleven year old?

Speaker 4 (12:12):
To my core, I'm literally like if I could do
surf to so lat and dance, like that's who I am.
Ice skating all those artistic things is really who I am.
And it really wasn't until two things. The TV show
Solid Gold, where Wayne, Oh my god, you don't understand.
She had Darcel Wayne own black gazelle legs. She wore

(12:35):
this Leo tar ponytail, and I'd be in my house
knocking over furniture, you know, pulling my underwear out of
my hast, trying to be like her. And I mean
last year I had a chance to have her actually
on my show, and I almost cried like a baby.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
Darcel Wayne is what she and.

Speaker 4 (12:52):
She looks exactly the same, son, Oh my god. And
you know when people say you don't want to meet
your idols, like, be careful when I tell you she
like I could call her any day. She's given me
her number. You go out to like you don't understand.
And that's what I watched and was like later for gymnastics,
I want to dance like this. And then when fame came,
I was like, I'm sold.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
I was gonna.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
I was gonna ask, was you a Debbie Allen baby?

Speaker 4 (13:16):
Like yes, and Debbie are my two right here? But
once you finish gymnastics, like I knew I wasn't going
to the Olympics. But you can only compete for four
years in college for NT double A, and I had
a five year bachelor's program that I got into where
I was studying sports medicine and physical therapy. But year

(13:37):
four you can't compete more past four years. I'm like,
I'm not gonna sit around even if I'm gonna get
my master's. Like, I gotta go, I gotta dance, I
gotta whatever. So I actually left early after I got
my bachelor's and my mother, of course to this day
is still giving me the side because here to get
my masters. But once I left, we came back to
New York and started auditioning. You know, everything was in
the newspaper back then, backstage and all this other stuff.

(14:01):
I pretty much booked everything that I auditioned for probably
the first year two years out the gate, and my
mother was like still giving me the side when you
go back to school, when you go backward. Still to
this day, my mother can't believe that cartwheels is the
thing that travel around the globe and TV shows and me.
She's like, how did this happen? She's still scratching her
head and less.

Speaker 6 (14:22):
At what point did you know that you were physically
different than the other ladies that usually exceed in these things.

Speaker 4 (14:28):
But my body has always been a topic of discussion,
you know. Third grade, I was literally wearing a bra,
so I was bigger, tested and I had to deal
with the boy snapping my bra, called me like ubani
great hard, I was wearing a bro so, and then
like being tall. I'm five ft six, so being taller
of the genus. You look at, you know, somebody like

(14:49):
some own biles and that she literally is up to
like my breast, and most gymnasts of people think that
you can only do genastics if you're like four for eight. So,
but when you see college genists, we're really probably all
around the same size. You know. Most started late, but
it took a long time. Like if you see me now,
I'm making half the time like I've never done any nudity.
But I had issues growing up because I was always

(15:11):
very muscular. I was always very athletic, and guys would
just be like, you look like a linebacker, why are
you so muscular? Me? So, I really didn't even take
my shirt off at the beach until I was like
a junior senior in college. So now you can't keep clothes.

Speaker 6 (15:29):
On me, and now your body is the model to
what a lot of women pay to look like, which
is ill right.

Speaker 4 (15:34):
But it's crazy too because even the name big Les
came based on who's the big girl doing backflips? And
that was like how he asked the producer of that
and they were like, oh, that's just less and somebody
just literally said big Less come here. And that's literally
how it happened. Who's the big girl doing backs? And
I say to people even who don't know me, well,
I do gymnastics, and they're like, yeah, right, maybe you
run track, maybe you play basketball, gymnastics never, and I'm like,

(15:57):
I can't even dribble, what do you sorry? You know?
And then I have to kind of show approve and
it's happened to a lot of gigs, like you don't
do gymnastics, and I'll be like, can you move over
three backhands rings and a full twist? And they're like, oh, okay.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
Can you still achieve that? Now?

Speaker 4 (16:15):
Absolutely?

Speaker 2 (16:16):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (16:16):
If you've seen my Instagram, I do try to do
things with softer landings. Now I do trapeze and I
do tramp. I had to have some major surgery a
couple of years ago, which I'm actually working on my documentary,
so I'll take everybody through it. But I didn't think
i'd be able to tumble again, so I just have
to have softer landings. Or even if you saw the

(16:37):
don't the don't rush challenge, we did one with the dances.

Speaker 3 (16:41):
I was so dope.

Speaker 4 (16:44):
Yeah I'll flipping the cement pools and yeah, I can
still tumble. I just made need some groken after a
little ice. Mama said that.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
What prompted you. I know that you said that you
started well with al but you mentioned backstage newspaper. I
remember that that was such a staple in my household
because my sister would, you know, try to land auditions
and all those things. So, like, I mean, at the time,
how did you get into the rotation of what is

(17:18):
known as choreography work or your video work? Like what
was your first professional job that you booked?

Speaker 4 (17:26):
Oh? God, be actual, because I was doing It's crazy,
you know, being a club kid in New York. And
I don't know how much you guys know about the
club scene, but back then in the nineties, everybody hung
out right all the record label execs, all the artists.
There were cyphers over there, there were dance battles over there,
and everybody actually had business cards. And that's kind of
how work happened for me because there was no internet,

(17:46):
there was no telephones. There was nothing that was a
business card or calling the receptionist or watching the music
video saying MCA Records, let me call front desk find
out blah blah blah. There were two major jobs that
happened for me that really weren't mainstream ones. That I
got hired to be a cheerleader for a full force
game that they were doing for WBLS. I never really cheerleader,
but it was mostly danced anyway, and I got to

(18:08):
do backflips across the gym. By the time I finished
and we had to head back into the locker room,
there must have been about six people from different labels,
some artists. I need you in my video, I need
you to dance for my artists, blah blah blah. Then
I did an off Broadway play. Auditioned for that, and
ironically the play was me y Clet Lauren came somewhere

(18:28):
along the line and we were all just club kids
from New York to New Jersey whatever, and Big Beat Records.
Big Beat Records was going to grab a play and
produce it. And what's his name, Calmen Hellman, right, had
an artist, Jay Williams. I'm gone to Sweat Sweat, Sweat
Sweats and I'm silking with those of you who know

(18:49):
house music. That was a huge, huge, huge record. That
was my first artist. And we toured all over the
country and literally from people seeing me on that as
one of his dancers, we would call hugs and kisses,
and we were doing every club, the sound factory, the garage,
I mean just every club late night, three clubs a night,

(19:10):
four clubs a night to four or five o'clock in
the morning, and people would be in the clubs. And
that's how I got my work. And so I was.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
You went to the legendary garage.

Speaker 4 (19:21):
Oh I still have my garage card. Let me pull
it up on the phone. Wow, car of course, the world,
the choice, I'm telling you.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
The music that Larry Levin's.

Speaker 4 (19:35):
Louie Vega, Robert Owens, all of them.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
Man, just yeah, how how immersed were you in New
York club? Oh?

Speaker 1 (19:46):
Here we go.

Speaker 4 (19:49):
The club scene, like you know, breaking her through the
whole bit. But most people think, is I mean because
you were being up from Queen's right. I actually went
to school with you know, kid and Play Herbie Wiz
and I DJ Wiz and I went to elementary school together.
They're a little older than my sister's age, but we
all grew up in the same area. So all the
jams in the park with them and the disco twins
and stuff is really like from my era and my people.

(20:12):
And so I was immersed into hip hop early on,
you know what I mean, like all the battles, sneaking
into all the clubs, and somehow I got into house music,
like really hardcore. So I'm a house dancer before I'm
a hip hop dancer, which most people don't know.

Speaker 6 (20:27):
Yeah, and I would love to see that, oh my god, right.

Speaker 4 (20:31):
Yeah, because it just offers some sort of spirituality that
I don't get as a dancer from hip hop, right,
because the movements are just liquid and you just kind
of close your eyes and stand by the speaker and
it just is infectious to you. And that's kind of
what it did for me and got me into like
really battling and stuff. I was a house Battle Dancer

(20:52):
before I was anything regarding hip hop. So trying to
find my garage card for you and talking to you.

Speaker 2 (20:59):
Wow, that's you still carry your garage card.

Speaker 4 (21:02):
It's on my phone somewhere.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (21:07):
See the year looking like a scary Did.

Speaker 5 (21:17):
You ever actually get this here? Larry spin I can't
remember what did you eat?

Speaker 4 (21:21):
Got? Yes?

Speaker 5 (21:22):
You got to hear wow? So dope?

Speaker 4 (21:24):
Yeah? Yeah, I mean the garage was just you know
between Grace Showns showing up and Liz Torres and all
these artists and performing at like four or five o'clock
in the morning, and you would leave the garage drenched.
You'd always bring a different pack of clothes. You'd be
leaving by the time people were going to work and
the sun would be coming up, you know, And it
was a lifestyle. You could be broke as hell, but

(21:46):
all the security guards knew who the dances were, you
know what I mean, who just like kept the parties going.
So even if I was under age or didn't have
any money, I never had to pay to get in.
And Washington Square Park was like the hangout. That's kind
of where we all just manifested. Learn new who knew
about this audition or whatever, and it was just kind
of like that was our pipeline. We were all broke,

(22:06):
knapsack kids, whatever. But that was like the best times
of my life.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
I was going to say, especially what we're going through
right now in New York City, a lot of people
are kind of hoping that with the mass exodus of
the factor that's leaving New York, which I'll say is
the gentrification factor. You know, everyone, all of them are

(22:31):
running to the hills. Now, people are sort of wondering,
you know, what type of New York will develop post
twenty twenty. And you know, a friend of mine said that, well, hopefully,
you know, the creativity and the artists will come back
downtown as they used to before, you know, the gingrification culture.

(22:52):
But for you, like, are you one of those people
that just has a romantic feeling of of New York
when it was its most dangerous per se or is dangerous?
Sort of like a subjective opinion.

Speaker 4 (23:09):
Oh no, I love my old school, grimy, large rats,
trash in the street, deep shows on forty second Street,
the Israelites on the corner talking like great dances, like
that's my quintessential New York And I feel bad for
the people who come to New York for the first
time now and it's like Universal Studios, Like you don't
get to see the graffiti on the train, which to

(23:30):
me was like the artwork of artwork, you know, the
you know, the late the clubs are just whatever, and
they still don't know the difference between you know, Bridge
and Tunnel Night, which is in regular Friday and Saturday
night and all that other stuff. And for those who
don't know what that is, it's like true New Yorkers
only go to the club literally from Sunday to Thursday,
Bridge and Tunnels. People from Jersey, Connecticut, Philadelphia who want

(23:52):
to come to work for the weekend and get in
a way, they just get in our way.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
Okay, I get it, I get it.

Speaker 4 (24:01):
I love you, really I do.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
The day that I arrived in New York City was
literally like day one of the disneyfication of forty second Street.
So I thought it was great. I was like, oh man,
this is really amazing, you know, and only to find
out that no everyone else was mourning the loss of
New York City.

Speaker 4 (24:22):
I mean, it's cute and sure, you know, we all
have to be progressive and all that other stuff, but
you kind of want New York to be what it's
always been known for. And I'm not afraid of the growth.
It's cute, it's beautiful and sure, and I mean, I'm
actually kind of selfishly glad that I got to experience it.
And it's still my version of New York. I don't
even recognize it when I go home anymore. I barely

(24:43):
even recognize queens, all the restaurants, all the people, all
the things that were so culturally ours seems to be
you know, stripped away. Yeah, and I don't know if
it's ever going to come back.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
You know, it will, That's what I was going to ask.
Do you feel like it will return? Or I just.

Speaker 4 (25:02):
Feel like the inspiration deep, the inspiration that New York
bore was an originality of thought that came from the
things that you see. Like, because I'm trapped in my
car here in LA all the time, my sensibilities have
dumbed down, right, because I'm not around, my senses aren't
as sharp. I don't get to see or smell or

(25:25):
hear other languages and other things like. But when I
go home the first couple of days, I'm like soaking
it all in. I'll walk from Central Park all the
way down to Canal Street just cause, and I feel
like I've learned or gained so much culture just because
I've been away. But for those people who were in
New York used to creating this culture that's now been

(25:47):
stripped away, I feel like, you know, they're kind of
moving to the outskirts or downtown or whatever, and they're
not as creative or original as they used to be
or the people that before them came, you know what
I mean. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yes, it makes sense. So when you're when you're I'm
jumping back to your your first gigs as a dancer,
when you were first hired as a dancer, did you
start off as choreographer or is that sort of like
a chain that you have to work your way up to.

Speaker 4 (26:21):
Usually you kind of have to work your way up
to it. It really kind of happened to me. Nothing's
an accident. My first major tour was the Key Sweat
Triple Threat Tour BBD Johnny gill Keith Sweat Wow. Literally
my jobs after that came from being seen by the
artists and the audience who would come backstage like Guy

(26:42):
Teddy Riley and Aaronhole would be like, you have to
dance with us and meet me by the dressing room,
or happen the same thing with Heavy d You know
when hev lost the guys and was like, I'm gonna
have girl dancers. He literally I saw him in the
audience and by the time we got to the dressing room,
he was standing in front of our doors like I
need you to dance for me. So that's kind of
how those things happened. I got I'm sorry I missed

(27:06):
your question, did I answered, I don't think I did.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, no, you told me the process of it. But
what I wanted to know was who was, Oh, who
was the the choreographer of the moment when you entered
the game of doing these legendary videos, like did they
trust you to make up the steps? Or who was
the person that was at the helm.

Speaker 4 (27:30):
So to answer your original question, choreography happened for me
because people always thought that I was the principal answer
because I was in front and they assumed that I
choreographed up And a lot of times the choreographers who
had the job would show up unprepared and be like, Okay,
I need a count or I need a four count
over here and we ended up doing more of the

(27:50):
work and I just was like, aren't you getting paid
for this? Like wait what? And so the next time
somebody asked me, I said, yeah, I choreographed it, which
was kind of a lie good I wouldn't. And that's
kind of how I switched up the deal is I
was probably getting paid more than anyone else as a dancer,
and then I started realizing how much money choreographers were making,
like oh Schnepp, But choreographers then there weren't really many

(28:14):
any females. They were like Peakaboo Donovan. They were the
guys from the Mop Top crew, like Stretch and Henry
and Link. Rosie Perez probably was one of the females
who are around. And Rosie will be the first to
tell you, like she's a creative visionary versus being a
dancer dancer, you know what I mean. She's somebody who
could move well, and we seen her throw it back,

(28:35):
you know, on Soul Train and stuff. But she'll tell
you she's not a dancer dancer, but she has great vision,
you know. So those were some of the people who
really from me, were hiring me a lot. Darren Henson
started to do a lot of choreography music Factory, so
he was hiring me a lot, and then I was
getting hired by the directors directly. Lionel, Martin, Millicent Shelton

(28:57):
was really doing a lot of the music videos then
that I had, you know, danceing Arris Barcoley, he did
around the Hey Girl, you know, into TV and stuff.
But I was there for a lot of beginning, you know,
Jeff Bird uh well, even while you know, Benny Boone
was moving apple boxes for Lionel, like, you know, I
was all there at the beginning of these careers. Nobody

(29:18):
everybody was just getting put on, you know, and so
there were a lot of Rosie was probably the only
one who initially first was the head choreographer as far
as females go. And then to Randon as well, you know,
land he was doing Janet on the West Coast, and
I was still dancing and then really transitioning into choreography.

(29:41):
And then you kind of have to decide for yourself
can you do both? Now? Can I put myself in
the front? Am I going to be subjective to knowing
what the choreography looks like as well as dancing it
and being that whole thing, and I did it for
a while and the reason I ended up stepping out
of dance rat City came along, which you know was
a blessing.

Speaker 6 (30:00):
Can I just ask on a dancing tip at some
point because you made that transition to choreographer because you're
a New York dancer, did other folks of other generations
and genres reach out to you?

Speaker 3 (30:09):
Because in my mind, I'm.

Speaker 6 (30:10):
Like, wow, did you get to talk to like the
Judith Jamison's, the George Faison's and the that b Allens
of the world that were.

Speaker 4 (30:17):
No because they weren't really they were I think doing
more Broadway and TV at that time. They just tapped
into music videos and touring and even hip hop per se.
They may have maybe started to introduce it a lot
if they were still teaching class.

Speaker 3 (30:32):
Because you got Oprah. At some point, you are Oprah.
They got to know who is this girl?

Speaker 4 (30:36):
Right right?

Speaker 2 (30:37):
Right?

Speaker 4 (30:38):
But I mean, and you never know who's watching. Like
It's the crazy thing. You just when you meet people
and they're like, hey, you know, I saw you dance,
and you're like, oh my god, that's George Clooney, you
know me, Like and I'm just I've never Metgined, but
I'm just as a name and you're just like, oh snap,
you never know who's watching you. So I didn't get
to meet them during that time or really dance in
their world. They were more theatrical. One person I did

(31:00):
get a chance to meet, obviously, was Otis Salite, who
really is up that genre. And he's the one who
did the living single intro.

Speaker 7 (31:11):
You know.

Speaker 4 (31:11):
Otis Salit is the one who is like a directiographer.
He did school days choreography, you know, good and bad
hair and all that stuff. Malcolm X like he's a genius,
a genius, and I was just so grateful that he
even called me because I was still I was on
tour when they were doing auditions for Malcolm X and
Lindy Hop is my favorite genre of life, and I

(31:32):
found out about us and too late, but I was
able to go to one of the rehearsals introduce myself
to him. He kind of Lorianne I think was working
on that maybe introduction, but I was too late, So
I got to do extra work in the film. Cut
to a year or a month later, whenever it happened.
I get a phone call and it's otis on the
other line, and you're like, is this really you? Like,

(31:55):
it's like Michael Jackson calling your phone? Like that's what
it felt me like, No, this campy, the otist elite.
Sure whatever you need, you know, Wow, So.

Speaker 5 (32:06):
What was it like when Michael Jackson actually called your phone?
Now I think about it like them.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
So what I what I want to know is, though,
is how how competitive was it? And I don't mean
from like a caddy sort of thing, but like in
terms of booking gigs? Uh, were you your own agent?
Were you your own manager?

Speaker 4 (32:39):
Like?

Speaker 2 (32:39):
How is one able to secure gigs? How's one able
to solidify? Because it's like, as far as I know
growing up watching these specific videos, I mean, there was
a point where either I mean you already named Millicent
in Paris, but like Lionel C. Martin damn near did
like at one point I'm certain that he did sixty

(33:00):
to seventy percent of all the output on Rap City
that I saw. And so it's like, on the other
side of that coin, what was the environment like as
far as being chosen, Like, yes, we definitely know who
you are, but like you know, there's also jo C.

(33:22):
Harris's there's like other household names that I know in
the game, like how does one navigate? Like was it Caddy?
Was it? Just like, hey, there's enough work for all
of us, Like what was the environment?

Speaker 4 (33:38):
Like? It's interesting because at first it started off where
everybody's calling each other like, Yo, there's an audition for this,
there's an audition for that. Then for me, it got
to a point where I would always call everyone. Remember
I come from team sports, so it's like, even if
you compete against somebody one weekend and they beat you,
you got a whole week or two weeks to come

(33:58):
back and beat them, right, So it's all fair game.
The industry is not like that. There's a lot of
jealousy and animosity. So I remember going to an audition
and the people that I normally call or we call
each other, suddenly nobody called me. And I got the
call like at the last minute, and I show up
and all my friends are there, and I'm like, how
come nobody call me? And one of my really close

(34:19):
friends said, because you book all the jobs. We just
want to work. And that's when I literally was changed
from that. I became somebody who was like this, now
I'm not saying anything to anybody. I'm keeping the work
to myself and that's not even my character. And literally
it just was like, now I'm really going to book
these gigs. Now I'm really going to show up and

(34:40):
show out and make sure that I take this opportunity
away from you, just because it's my blessing. And I
work harder than everybody else because I'm the chick who
gets up earlier in the morning and still works out
and does what needs to be done. But okay, if
that's your hate, then that's what it is. But back then,
like I said, everybody was their own agent. I remember
making calls as my own assistan changing my voice, you know,

(35:02):
sending different nutters or whatever case is, and booking gigs
and no negotiating my price and stuff. But the calls
back then came direct, where you just gave people your number.
They gave you either the business card or the number
to the label, and they were just calling me direct
and I just would have to pretend to be someone
else to negotiate my rate.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
Oh wow, Okay, now I really got to get into
the business. Is there such a thing as a union?
And if you don't mind me asking, Okay, if it's
nineteen ninety or nineteen ninety one, what was considered a
good booking? I'm certain that.

Speaker 3 (35:42):
Rate wise, right, you're asking a marriag.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
Yeah, rate wise, like you know in my field, Like
if I like somebody nine times out ten, I'm not
you know, I won't charge them. I mean, I'm at
a place now where I'm comfortable. But you know, if
you're using this to survive day to day, what's like
a friends and family discount? Like, all right, I'll hook
you up because you guys have a little budget. And

(36:04):
I really liked the song versus like, what's a good booking?

Speaker 4 (36:08):
Well, I don't think. And when I talk to dances now,
because there was never a union back then, you really
had to expeast their famine, and artists always made you
feel like, dancers come a diamond us and we can
get somebody else. So either you would underbid another choreographer,
which has happened, or you would just settle for less
money just so you can get the gig. And now

(36:30):
that even though there are more agencies and stuff like that,
I think what the scale is is still not where
it should be. So dancers really are doing it for
the passion and not for the money. Back then, I
think day rates were probably like two fifty four rehearsal.
We're talking like anywhere from four to eight hours, maybe
five hundred for a shoot day. Choreographers would get more,

(36:52):
maybe than seven hundred, and maybe you might get one
thousand a week if you were going on tour. Like
that's when you look at the big scheme of things
and all that we're doing and contributing to this artwork
and these visuals. It's not a lot of money based
on other people, but.

Speaker 6 (37:06):
Artists try to put you on retainer and just hold
you so nobody else could.

Speaker 4 (37:10):
Oh no, no, there was no such thing as retainer.
They're not spending that money contracts, they're not doing it.
My first job on the Key Sweat tour, I cried
like a baby because I had a real job and
so I was able to take a leave of absence,
which I didn't even know was an option. He broke
his foot on that tour, and I'm like, oh my god,
this tour is about the end. I have to go
back to a real job. But he kept going. But

(37:31):
there's no concrete safety net about what's going to happen.
It's you know, a tour or a project dissolves. There
may be more coverage now, depending on whether it's a
commercial or a TV show where the union kind of
gets involved and it's under sagging after. But there's no
There are barely any artists who ever pay retainer for
their band or for the dancers. They like, really want

(37:52):
to have to have you and keep and not want
to share you with somebody else for that to happen,
and then you know, it's always they're always in some
what a financial disagreement with the label anyway about their
money being spent. So the last thing on their mind
is keeping dancers. We're the first to go. They don't
want to. They don't want to have to buy us,
you know, stage where they don't have to get here
and makeup, they don't have to do any of that stuff.

(38:14):
But you know, our own separate tour buses, hotels, rooms
like yeah, that comes with a price for your stage show.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah. Wait, Because I know that you were part of
the Bobby campaign his third album, of which when I
saw y'all it was like ninety seven people on stage.
I was wondering how that p DM worked. What do
you consider the first video that was your breakout moment?

(38:44):
Was it Mary or like, oh no, before.

Speaker 4 (38:49):
I think it might have been around the Way Girl.
For most people, I'm not going to like. It doesn't
highlight my best work. The video for me that highlights
my best work as a dancer is the artist a Diva,
She's the House. Yeah. We had a video called it
should Have Been Me, and we did a scene that

(39:09):
was kind of like the Blues Brothers where Jim Beluchi
or John Belush excuse me, did backflips down the church
aisle and that was the whole theme of the video.
And I actually got hired to be a dancer with
the ensemble cast and Big Mike Ellis was the first
a d on that and I forget who's actually directing it,
and they had hired somebody to do trampoline work and
tumble and they were horrible. So I was like, Mike,

(39:31):
tell them I can do it. Well, Mike told whoever
the director was that she can do it, but I
could do it, and the director was like yeah right,
and I'm like no, And again it became one of
these like tell everybody to clear the aisle and literally
did you can see it on YouTube? Did like three
or four backflips down the aisle whatever, and of course
it made the film and they had to pay me
for that too, So shout to Mike Ellis making that happen.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
Oh, flipping is extra.

Speaker 5 (39:59):
Flipping, flipping another invoice.

Speaker 4 (40:01):
But it takes you a minute to realize that you're
worth and that you can actually these things because you
don't realize, you know, and there's no standard that was
set for you as a dancer, you know what I mean.
So you kind of figure it out as you're going on,
and then you try it, Like if you say, if
you find out one choreographer is making you know, five hundred,
forget how bad you want the job, Well, I'm worth
fifteen and you're like, well we only have Nope, you

(40:23):
came to me, and then you kind of like think
out for it that So that's gonna be my bord
now on, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
So uh, let's let's let's go there. Remember the time
no with remember the time with Michael Jackson being at
his somewhat apex. I mean I kind of consider that

(40:51):
probably Okay, I'll let scream go in there too. But
like back when a Michael Jackson video was an event,
was that a mount Fiji of achievement as far as
videos was concerned, Like, was that the best treatment? Was

(41:12):
that the most professional atmosphere? Or you know, was it
the story of like oh the bigger, the artist, the
cheaper and you know, like what was that experience?

Speaker 4 (41:24):
Like that was everything that you wish for as a dancer.
I found out about the audition like on a Wednesday night,
Like on a Wednesday, I was in New York a
bunch of dances, like, oh my god, we're scrambling. It's
on Saturday, or maybe like even that Thursday, I found
out broke as fuck, had to beg my mother for
money to get on a plane, like mom, please, please please.

(41:45):
Found out Fatimo was choreographing it. We were hanging out.
She was like, you can come, you can audition. I
can't make promises to anybody, so I was like cool.
I end up staying with her. She's like, I can't,
you know, the director has final say blah blah blah.
A bunch of us were able to get on a
plane and literally John Singleton have been a fan of
New York dancers, so he kind of knew who a
lot of us were. When we showed up at the

(42:07):
audition and once you book the gig and you make
that call home like oh my god, mom, I got it.
So then we're having auditions, I mean rehearsals, and we
haven't met Michael yet. Right, we're probably two three weeks
into rehearsals and we still haven't seen Michael yet because
Michael's having his private rehearsals with Fatima.

Speaker 5 (42:23):
So indeed know beforehand that it was going to be
for Michael Jackson video.

Speaker 4 (42:27):
We knew exactly how I got on a plane, Like
that's the only reason why you start begging for money,
is like I know I can book this. Just get
me there please. And so once we get into rehearsals,
we're also given a book that looks like the phone
book for those who don't know, it's like this big
which is a contract pretty much don't look at him,
don't talk to him, don't talk to bubbles, don't ask

(42:49):
the questions they'll take, no picure, like just whatever you
can think of is in this contract. So Michael shows
up and it is literally, now, oh, let me back
up a little bit. Because once John singles and said
we want you you you you you, which say, let's
say ten dancers from New York hopped on a plane.
Maybe eight of us got hired, and so they gave

(43:10):
us for dim. They put a lot of people up
in a hotel or you know, we have places to
stay because everybody kind of planned on. You know, we
all broke finding places to stay. But they gave us
per diem because you knew we flew out there and wardrobe, hair, makeup.
To show up to Universal Studios is the dream of dreams, right.

(43:32):
It's everything that you can imagine when you pull up
the first day and you see these gates and say
Universal Studios and you're actually allowed on and you hear
the wind blowing and the heart playing and all that,
Like that's what it was. The rehearsal was great. We're
three weeks into rehearsals. Two weeks into rehearsals, Michael comes
in a couple of days before we shoot, and he's

(43:55):
speaking everybody like, hey, everybody in his soul wise, Hi,
how you guys doing. Everybody is so paranoid, like don't
look at him, don't talk to him, We're not allowed
to kind of like this, And so he shows us
what the routine looks like first. So we do we
watch him through the routine and all of us are like, uh, oh,
we didn't learn it, Like no, no, his stink, his

(44:21):
groove like he was on some other ship. He were
just like five sic. Michael's like had one, two, three.

Speaker 6 (44:31):
Like he was.

Speaker 4 (44:32):
We were all like, oh now, so literally, thank god
had like two or three more days before the shoot
to get in there and step our game up. And
then when we got on set, that was like a
whole other euphoria because then Michael's hanging out with us,
and artists tend to hang out with the dancers, right,
we're like the cool kids. We kind of don't care

(44:53):
or we're over there just practicing our stuff, and so
he's talking to us, and here Michael Jackson curse, like
now fuck that.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
Man, Like like.

Speaker 4 (45:05):
You forget that he's cursing, or that he's like you
know what I'm saying, right, and he's like, wow, he's hip,
But you forget that they're home by themselves watching the
l L Pool Jay video jamming and Mary J. Blige
grooving the guy or whatever they're doing, and you just
think that they're not human or in this bubble. And

(45:26):
he really was like cool with us and to be
on that set. Every star that you could imagine was
coming to visit just to hang out, whether it was
John Singleton or hang out with you know, his Magic
Johnson's and his kid friends and the whole Lakers team
is rolling up and you're just like, we didn't hang
like you know, you're just kind of scared to like

(45:48):
step over any boundaries. But everybody's coming. They want to
take pictures with us because they love our costumes. You know,
we're on set with everything and everybody, Like it was
just match anything that you can dream of as a dancer.
This was the dream Pinnacle project, hands down of all time.
It's amazing and it was an event. And when it

(46:08):
was time for it to like debut on MTV, it
literally was like twenty of us in a hotel room
telling all of our family, oh my god, it's gonna
hit it like it was a thing thing. And then
to see and then to see that you made the.

Speaker 8 (46:20):
Edit like again, like come on, and you wait, you
couldn't play it back then, so you had to wait
for it to re air, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (46:31):
Like, but can we talk about everybody's favorite edit?

Speaker 6 (46:33):
I know the guys ain't gonna say because they ain't
gonna say it, but the paper edit when it's the
part when Les is doing her thing and then it's
a dude to go under and its just the whole
world just okay, never mind? Did nobody never ever notice
that let's whole world gets shaken up in the middle
of her dancing and the guy.

Speaker 5 (46:52):
Comes in between, Like I remember, okay.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
I'm I the only one that I mean.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
I was like, you're going to ask all the questions.

Speaker 6 (47:03):
I'm talking maybe, just like I didn't say that this is
a professional interview.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
Sorry about that list.

Speaker 4 (47:06):
It was just me no, but I get that a
lot even from you know, this quest was talking about
Bobby Brown, the humping around video. Here I am with
the handstand, you know, mapping on death copy jam and
Marton fools me on stage and it's the head you know.

Speaker 3 (47:22):
So that being said, let me ask you a serious question, then.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
God damn it, because I want her to tell me
the polar opposite story. Okay, you told me, you told
me the greatest video story for you. We don't even
have the name names. Now give me the polar opposite story.
What was a bad experience?

Speaker 4 (47:44):
Hmm?

Speaker 2 (47:46):
You you know the name names if you don't want no, no, I.

Speaker 4 (47:49):
Don't think it was. I don't remember a really horrible
project for me. It was touring scenarios. There were two
artists that I toured with where and I'm sure Bobby
probably he said it when you talked to him about
like all the dancers and stuff, arguing and whatever. But
it's family members too, Like it's just you get all
these people who are on tour who don't do any

(48:13):
of the creative work, but by nepotism take I can
do whatever, and I'm here and I'm not going anywhere.
So the crew, the cousins, the whoever. But you can't
say anything because that's their family. So you'll get fired
before they do. And here they come, whether they're smoking
on the dancers bus or they're selling like tickets on
the side, and like that's your brother and you're selling.

(48:35):
You know what I'm saying. But there was like one
artist that I worked for who really was just like,
y'all ain't shit, I can get new dances in here tomorrow.
And we were on a tour with other artists that
had dances. I need you to bust their ass every day.
And he was so arrogant and so obnoxious that I
never spoke to him ever, ever, ever spoke to him

(48:56):
unless I absolutely had to. And I probably reveal this
when I do my documentary about who it is. But
it's funny how years happen or how many people end
up respecting you because you didn't kiss their ass. I
ended up living in the same building as this artist
years later, and we became really not really good friends,

(49:17):
but to a point where he asked me to be
part of like his radio show and all this other stuff.
Later I was like, frequently he probably had respect for
me that wasn't trying to kiss his ass or be
his friend. Because that's what happens, right, is everybody wants
to be friends with the artists, but as opposed to,
you know, creating really true friendships, right just because of

(49:37):
the hype of Yeah, I can call Usher up every
day because I dance with him, as opposed to you
and Usher really having a bond like that become a
best friend. So yeah, it's.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
How so how toxic is the proverbial casting couch during
this period between the nineties and I don't know when
the end of your bracket is as far as the
choreography world is concerned because I know it had to
have been toxic as hell.

Speaker 4 (50:08):
That casting couch is real as real then as it
is today. And I don't think me too really has
kind of slowed much.

Speaker 3 (50:15):
Of a not in a music business, no, not at all.

Speaker 4 (50:19):
And you remember, I got it from the dance side,
from the radio side, from the TV side, like it's
you know, and I've never had to sleep my way
to the top, like you got to work for backflips.
I wasn't, you know what I mean, Like I can't.
You got to pay for that, like you need me
more than I need you. But I have been propositioned

(50:40):
where it's like, well, you know, you won't even have
to audition, you just, you know, get on your knees
over here and suck me off over here. You should
let me take you out over here, and that kind
of a thing, Like it's some real stuff and you
have to kind of really know who you are. I
probably have more fear of my mother or the fear
of disappointing my mother, than I did worrying about a job,
you know what I mean. And it's not about being

(51:02):
arrogant or confident. You also have to know what your
worth is or that all right, well this ain't meant
for me. It's not I think for me. Coming into
the business, I had so much fear about the stories
and the drugs. But one of my first gigs is
doing like the Lou Rolls telethon, and we're hanging out
and I don't want to snitch on that had that

(51:27):
huge telethon. I was dancing on. Some of that I
was dancing for, like I think Big Daddy Kane or
kom O d I think I was dancing for or something.
And then like all these artists and stuff are backstage,
whether it's Sha Ka Khan and this person that person,
and you start like want to hang out with the
dances and then you're get into somebody's limo and next

(51:49):
thing you know, you see them doing cocaine. Like these
are my first and I'm like, this is really real.
This is the stuff that you read about like oh snap,
so and so, oh snap, you know what I mean.
But you kind of have to be like, Okay, let
me keep it together, blah blah blah. But you are.
You're hit up by the casting couch and these scoundrels
who are just like I think it's okay to proposition

(52:12):
you and that you're not going to say anything, or
that you want the job really bad. And I'm not
that she wanted a job really that bad because I
believed in my gift. And I think if I had
not had my gymnastic background and had so much success
in that, or had you know the wisdom of the
women that nurtured me growing up, that I could have
been somebody else who would have been thirsty for a job.

(52:34):
I think the adverse reaction now is that those same
guys who didn't get any asked for me, even though
they know the body of work that I have, their
ego is so damaged that they won't hire me to
this day. I mean, so that's their version of blacklisting
me or being mad that I didn't give them any
ass kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
So, yeah, I was going to ask, where's the repercussion
of saying no and standing up for yourself, Like, is
it this particular artist will blackball you, or even worse,
this particular CEO of a label will blackball you? Or
video director?

Speaker 4 (53:09):
Yeah, it was never blatant, I believe, though there may
be a couple of times where I didn't get the
return phone call, or I didn't get the meeting, or
somebody else got hired because of me, but it was
never to my face, well you didn't give me this,
or because it was never that. And they may still
speak to me or say hi, just on whether it's
installsed or to show me that they're an executor at

(53:30):
a label or whatever now, or they'll even take a meeting,
but they won't hire me. They want me to see
their corner window office or whatever and be like, yeah,
so what can I do for you? Or you know,
they expect you to be in their face now and
that your mind has changed because you've blown up and
I'm ready to break you off, and like, no, kid,
that's not it.

Speaker 6 (53:49):
But curious though less because even after the casting counts,
like after you have the job and you've earned the job,
we know that like that doesn't stop then. So I'm
just curious for you, like what was your a lot
of defense and at what point did for lack of
a better term, niggas get the point and stop asking,
because I know after for a while it was just like, oh,
I can let me try every trying who's that?

Speaker 3 (54:08):
Oh I ain't hit it yet. Maybe you could make
when did it go? Okay? You know what I know,
Les and she ain't the one.

Speaker 4 (54:13):
Well, I think being allowed to ask New Yorker and
just be like, hit the fuck out of here, you
know what I'm saying?

Speaker 6 (54:18):
Like that, that's you.

Speaker 4 (54:20):
Know, you very upfront and very I'm a very loud,
very upfront, cursed out two point two seconds, like for real.
I think being a muscular chick and being very physical
is kind of intimidating too. You know, I've never had
anybody grab me. And I feel sorry for all the
women who were backed into a corner like that, but
I've never been backed into a corner like that. Or
I think I kind of just look like I'm ready

(54:42):
to knuckle up, so I don't you know, but there
are you know, those repercussions. But for me, it's like,
there's nothing attractive about being one of ten other women
who have slept with the same dude in the room.
Like that's not cute. I don't ever want to be
that chick. No matter how fine you are, what team
you played for, whatever the case is, there's nothing sexy
about being one of twenty that y'all can all. You know,

(55:04):
he can be like this, this, this, this, that and
the other. And I've never fucked anybody who had control
over my money. You're not going to dictate to me
fact whether I have how much I make or you
get to fuck ten people and I can only fuck
with you. And the minute you see me with somebody else,
then you fire me and I lose the job and
all that other stuff. So no, we're gonna keep it. Whatever.
So I've never slept with the artists. Maybe the drummer,

(55:25):
keyboard player, but.

Speaker 6 (55:34):
It's safe to say that you've never felt powerless in
this career.

Speaker 4 (55:39):
No, I don't think I've desperate. I've never felt desperate
enough to feel like I have to do this, that
and the other for this job.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
No, what was what was the What was the moment
that led to you sort of ease out of your
comfort zone and go into being a personality Because I've
seen you on mini of Red Carpet doing rap City,
Like was that your first job as a Like how

(56:10):
did you know that you had a personality? Because it's
you know, even even for me to ease into this
zone is a little weird. Like just because I'm a
public figure doesn't mean that you know, just because you
could do. That doesn't mean that you can carry a conversation,
go to be engaging and all that. Something you're really engaging,
like you are a personality. It's almost like you know

(56:32):
when I when I saw that you first started like
doing red carpet stuff and starting with rap City, I
was like, Oh, she's a natural, Like she is a personality,
Like where did that come from?

Speaker 4 (56:43):
Wow? Thank you for saying that. Career, It's interesting the
things that you write in your diary have so much power.
When I was in high school, I was going to
study journalism and I took like three journalism classes and
the last one I took I didn't like. So I
was like, I'm switching to sports medicine and athletic training
and all that other stuff. But I still always kept
a journal. I always still wrote short stories and always

(57:05):
kind of like been inquisitive by nature. Rahap City is
a blessing that came after I did not become a flygirl,
Like that's a whole other was curious.

Speaker 3 (57:14):
I didn't want to ask that's so okay.

Speaker 2 (57:17):
Oh yeah, what gigs didn't you get that you wanted?

Speaker 4 (57:20):
Well, being a fly girl was the gig that I
wanted more than anything. I literally did not get it,
and it was already like set up. I had the
best audition. All the local news channels are interviewing me.
I did all these flips and this, that and the other.
Everybody knew you.

Speaker 3 (57:37):
It was the New York Fan, the Wayans and Rosie and.

Speaker 4 (57:41):
Yeah, Rosie came over to me side barbers, like, can
you lose ten pounds? Jen already been on the show,
And I'm like, but Jen at the time was bigger
than I was, Like, I was really muscular, but she
was thicker. And then I found out that, you know,
by Josie's own words, that she had been approached well
before the audition by I guess one of the way
it's called her and said listen, we need you to

(58:01):
show up, but we want to know if you want
the gig. So she pretty much already had it and
just kind of had to look like she had the audition.
And you know, usually they do what's called typecasting. You
say you want somebody light skin this, tall, Latino women,
black women, whatever, very specific. This was an open audition,
but they already knew who they wanted and what they wanted.
And Rosie, years later came and apologized for even asking

(58:24):
me that question and wishing that she had fought for
me because she knew that I was the baddest thing
in the room at that time. But rejection is God's protection.
Right after I'm flicking my wounds and I don't get flygirl,
I go on Madeline Wood Show video LP and dance
on the show. I'm talking about all these artists that
I've worked with, you know, as a dancer, that you

(58:46):
spend time with on the tour bus and in rehearsals,
so you know them more than the fans do, sometimes
even better than the family does. And so they're like,
you know these people who've been around them even before
some of them had their deals, And would you like
to audition for Rahap City? And I auditioned, and the
producer Keith Patchell and Sanita Brooks and Eric Watson still
had to fight with me, had to fight for me

(59:07):
with the producers upstairs because one I didn't look a
certain way, right, there goes our lovely black one. Black colorism.
And there wasn't a female voice really in a hip
hop on that level other than Dee Barnes who came
before me. So once they were able to give me
a couple of episodes to prove myself. I got the job,

(59:29):
but they were gracious enough to let me do the
show while I was still dancing. I think I was
on tour with Heavy D and it worked in to
their benefit because now as we're city to city, I
could do interviews in city to city and they didn't
have to pay like any extra for it, so I
could catch up with common in Chicago and so and
so and so. And when it became too much, they
were like, you're gonna have to choose. And by that time,

(59:50):
you know, I had already done like fifteen years of gymnastics,
even though I wasn't ready to quit dancing, but I
had transitioned into choreography. I was still doing more choreography
and I couldn't tour, so I just kind of was like,
let me focus on TV altogether, and that's kind of
how that happened, and then radio was born from that.

Speaker 5 (01:00:06):
I think the thing I used to always like about
you hosting Rap City, I would notice how a lot
of times guests would change up who they were with
you in a way that they wouldn't with like D
or you know, Chris Thomas or whatever. I remember it
was a Boogie Monster's episode. Oh shit, one of the
guys he was trying, yo, he was trying so hard
to kick it to you. I can't remember which one

(01:00:28):
it was.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Yah Yo, man, I'm sorry. We all tried to kick
it to I mean, but I was so obvious though.
He was like talking all my do that day. I
was like that first day of school feeling when you
standing at the outfit iron my shirt, you know, iron shit.
I get out there. I was like, yo, we do
rap City today. Let me use my good shirt.

Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
The blessing that happened for me with that is that
a lot of the labels and the artists would request me,
and I think because they knew of me as a
dancer or they knew me from a club. They knew
I had been around and been in the trenches, and
that they could trust me with their story and that
I actually knew the story, you know what I mean,
because I was there, I was part of it, so
it was easy for them to like, come on the
show and us just have real conversations. And you know,

(01:01:14):
if you see my first episode to my like twentieth, yeah,
I grew a whole lot because I had real you know,
producers who would teach me how to talk and to
listen and this and to that and stuff. So it
made a difference and I felt really comfortable. I think
when you're a performer, and maybe it's a little different
for you, quest like there's certain things you're comfortable with
or not. Like I've always as a gymnast, been comfortable

(01:01:35):
on camera and performing and being a show person. And
I'm always been a talker and I'm always inquisitive, like
I'm nosy, and I could ask you like eight hundred
questions and without a cue card, and just because I
want to hear your story and I have human interests love,
Like I just really want to know how you got
from A to Z and I'm curious about it. So

(01:01:55):
I think you kind of get that and appreciate telling
their story in that way.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
You know, There's one question I didn't forget to ask
you as far as choreography is concerned. How long are
you allowed to sit with the song and how what's
what's the creative process for figuring out what the choreography is?
Because I know you have your own language, So do

(01:02:28):
you talk to the artists first and they have complete
trust with you or is it like, is it a
collaborative thing where you, you know, you and this artist
work things out, or is it the director of the
video that lets you know this, you know, this is
out of space and we want this sort of thing,
like what's what's the Can you walk us through what

(01:02:48):
the creative process is to map out?

Speaker 4 (01:02:52):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
Like real love. Sorry, I was just usually the artist.

Speaker 4 (01:02:56):
Of the last person you end up having a conversation with, right,
because you end up talking to the money people first.
You end up talking to the people who come and
approach you with the concept about this is what we
have the budget for, this is what the look is,
this is what we want to do. You have to
help us tell this story. Then you kind of figure out, okay,
what time period is this, what's the look? How many dancers?

(01:03:18):
What am I going to do with it? Then you
listen to actual the music, right, and you have to
decide whether you're going to do lyrical hip hop meaning
you know, I see you, you know where you're actually
the words or you're just doing feeling and emotion and
everybody's just rooming. And then of course you got to
find out if your artist can dance or not, and
that becomes a whole other thing, right because now if
the artist is ah, who has to let us be?

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
Who had to have a good cinematographer to make it
look like.

Speaker 4 (01:03:51):
I'll put I'll put them off blast a little bit.
If you remember the group intro, yes, that is fine.
I agree, but it was Buddy who's kind of had
left feet, but he he got on. You just had
to work with him a little bit more. But but
you end up telling making your your choreography so that

(01:04:12):
everybody can do it, because your job is to make
everybody look uniform, and if they can't get it, you're
only as good as your weakest first, which is the
true And the one person that I will go to
is the one person who's hat a sink. So that
means if they can't get it, you have to change
to choreography so that it works for them, And that's
really what it is. And working with somebody like Mary,
Mary will say that she can't dance, but Mary's got

(01:04:35):
to move and a bump bop, yeah around the way
girl language right between that, and then you got in
your head going your money, I need this, I need
whatever I need That snexy, that's smooth. I need blah
blah blah. I need that Harlem, I need that whatever.
But you already know what that is, so you, you know,

(01:04:55):
you combine whatever you see Mary do with the stuff
that you already know what to do. And then you
listen to the song and how it knocks and you're
just like, Okay, what do we dance? We in heels?
Are we in combat? But what's this?

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (01:05:06):
What are we wearing and we keep it sexy? Or
are we on baggy? Okay? You know you want it's hard,
Like I love when girls dance harder than the guys.
I love that athleticism and that's kind of how I
model my dancing, like you know what I mean. But
then if I need to take it off and soften
it up. You expect that of women. So when you
see the opposite, that's kind of what I think people

(01:05:27):
get excited to see. And I think they're dancers straight ahead.
Or when you saw you know, me and my girls
when you dance with Keith Sweat, you like, oh my god,
these girls are getting busy. It's not just the cute
and this and that, because you're used to seeing that
all the time.

Speaker 6 (01:05:41):
That i'll be good video when the girls, when the
guys do the thing, the girls come aat.

Speaker 4 (01:05:46):
Yeah, but that's the process and then you kind of
you gotta you gotta make the artists look good at
the end of the day. So even if your choreography
doesn't suit them, your job is to make them look
like the start that they are are supposed to be,
and your choreography will have to up from it and
you just have to change it, or you just have
to be real creative and find a way to hide
them for an eight count bring them back and make
it look like you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
All right? So what is as there been a project
where it was like not jankie, but very eleventh hour,
either the manager doesn't like the dancing or something, and
you got to change and you got like two hours
left to figure out something real quick?

Speaker 4 (01:06:27):
Yo?

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
Can you throw something together real quick? Like under pressure?
Have you ever had that situation?

Speaker 4 (01:06:33):
I'm sure that's happened, where like a prop's not working,
or like a dancer get sick and can't make the
show and whatever's made for like six people now has
to be made for five people because you're supposed to
catch somebody like you have to do those kind of changes,
or if a piece of equipment doesn't show up and
didn't make it, like when you're going from city to
city on tour and the trampoline doesn't show up and

(01:06:54):
there's this whole like you have to make those adjustments
on the spot. Yes, but that's what answers too, Like
it's like, fuck it, we're gonna do this by six
seven eight, and nobody knows who's messed up in the audience.
Maybe the band members might know, the other dancers might know,
but we know how to play it off. And that's
the part you trained for.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
So so you see it when all of us feils,
just two step.

Speaker 4 (01:07:17):
So you remember what the koreakey is to get back in. Yep,
that too.

Speaker 2 (01:07:22):
Have you ever lost the gig? Have you ever gotten
fired from the gig?

Speaker 4 (01:07:25):
Yes? I got fired. Me and Josie got fired. We
got hired to dance with c C. Peniston and CEC
was being managed by Her name was Tease. Tease was
the niece of one of the girls from No the
aunt of one of the girls from three O W.
So she was married. Yeah, we heard at CC so

(01:07:47):
we were doing a bunch of clubs. We did literally
I think the first or second night of shows, we
were doing club hits, like three or four shows a night,
like you know, she had all the gig clubs poppets,
so we were doing all the like three am, four
am whatever, and Tees falters and said, we're not going
to have your girls back. You outshine the artists, and

(01:08:09):
and we literally got fired. I'm like, but that's why
you hired us because we were good. We're like, yeah,
but Nosie, Josie and led together.

Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
That's a lot.

Speaker 6 (01:08:17):
That's yeah, y'all, y'all superstars, Like thank you. Yeah, I'm curious,
when was the last time you saw you saw some
choreography and you were like, now they translated that vision,
like when was the most recent thing you saw and
you were like.

Speaker 4 (01:08:34):
Listen, whenever I watched Missy or whenever I watched Beyonce stuff,
like I hat is still I think Missy's choreographer and
I had is one of the few females who was
in the circle back when I was in the circle,
like he was battling and all that other stuff, and
she really switched over to choreography, probably not before any
of us, probably right after I switched over to television,

(01:08:56):
but she's always been in the clubs for her choreography
and her choice of the dance, singing, the stuff that
she does between the collaborative work with Missy, it's like Missy,
I've never danced for Missy. I would come out of
retirement for Missy. I come out of retirement for her,
justin Timberlake, I come out of retirement for Beyonce. Of
course I lace up absolutely, So, Yeah, they impressed me,

(01:09:17):
but their whole thing is a visual package that I'm
just like, from the makeup to the clothing to like, yeah, yeah,
I don't know how much longer I can. It's hard
for me to go to a concert and not want
to like jump on stage. So if I can create
a project or become a part of an ensemble project
where I can dance again, I'm all.

Speaker 6 (01:09:37):
Yeah, that Beyonce thing don't seem too far off though
that really say that out loud?

Speaker 3 (01:09:41):
That don't really sound too I.

Speaker 4 (01:09:44):
Just want to look crazy. I don't want to be
one hundred and seven dancing behind a bunch of hole.
If they can't keep back with the girl, then.

Speaker 5 (01:09:53):
Yeah, how did the We didn't get the full story
of the Living single how you got in uprated into
the just into the credits like that was crazy.

Speaker 4 (01:10:04):
Well, when Otis Sale called me to he's like, let's
I got this vision. I don't have the job. I
just have an idea, so we're gonna shoot it. I
just need you to say yes and be on board
with it and then we'll figure it out if they
take it. So Otis was like I met him down
in Brooklyn underneath the Brooklyn Bridge Bridge, spent all day
doing backflips on cobblestone everything whatever he shot. And literally

(01:10:28):
that last movie you see where I'm going like this
and I fell back. I was when I saw like
one of his edits. I think he only kept like
a front flip maybe and it may not even be
in the full version of the TV show. But he
called me one day he said, oh my god, they
took it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:46):
They took it.

Speaker 4 (01:10:47):
We're gonna be And we didn't think it was gonna
be as big as it was. We didn't think. We
didn't think past the first airing, we didn't think past
multiple seasons, we didn't think. I didn't think any of
that stuff. And sure enough, to this day, that's probably
one of the things I'm most recognized for, which is
just crazy, even from like the new generation.

Speaker 3 (01:11:05):
Not to be in your pockets.

Speaker 6 (01:11:06):
But does a gig like that, So I'm trying to
say it, you don't have to give me a number
because it's eleven single is still playing on TV one
as we speak in other places? Does that continue to
pay for groceries every week? Does that continue to pay
for your.

Speaker 3 (01:11:22):
Hair done twice a month?

Speaker 6 (01:11:23):
Like?

Speaker 3 (01:11:24):
Where does what? Does it? Out of work?

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
Wait? Would you even gets for?

Speaker 3 (01:11:29):
Yeah? Would you get.

Speaker 4 (01:11:31):
Asked a million dollar question?

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:11:33):
What happened with this deal is I did what I
never thought I would do, which is a buyout, right oh,
which is a one time fast and that's it. But
even if I were getting residuals right now, I get
residuals from a lot of stuff, and they're like the
paper costs more than what the checks are.

Speaker 2 (01:11:52):
You get seventeen cents.

Speaker 4 (01:11:55):
You know, this show is almost twenty years old, so
I wouldn't be making any any real money off bit anyway.
But it served as purpose then at the time, and
still yeah, so it does. I think the legacy of
it all and me working with otis is a price
you can't put anything on the fact that Os called me.
There's no price for that.

Speaker 5 (01:12:14):
Yeah, you said, Lindy Hop is your favorite dance style.
How did you get into that?

Speaker 4 (01:12:20):
Well, I'm not all the way into it. But when
you see the athleticism of women in dresses, swinging, flipping
like it's me all day. Every nuance of that dance,
from the back flips to the front flips, to the
energy because it goes eighty miles a minute, speaks to
my personality, like if I had to describe me in

(01:12:40):
a dance, that's who I am is Lindy Up.

Speaker 6 (01:12:43):
It's crazy that our grandmothers were like that was their
everyday dance. Every grandmothers knew how to do.

Speaker 4 (01:12:47):
That right of all sizes, whenever on the ground, no
knee pads, yes, back flips, whatever. We don't care, not
trying to be cute. We don't care what I and
they still look cute, Like we don't care about what
our hair and or whatever, but they still look cute
before and after the whole like a press out press
not press out.

Speaker 2 (01:13:08):
You all know what the press out is, right, Stephen, No,
I mean it's it's a hair What you need Steve
it's what Steve looks like right now.

Speaker 7 (01:13:16):
He needs is the Is the Lindy Hop related to
the Lindy Yeah, the same thing.

Speaker 5 (01:13:26):
Yes, is Lindy Lindy jitle Bug.

Speaker 4 (01:13:34):
Swing in the same family. But Lindy Hop is like
something you would see literally at the Cotton Club and all.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
These just you know, what was the woman that Brady
Bunch did the Charleston? Was that a dance? Hilarious?

Speaker 4 (01:13:47):
Steve?

Speaker 2 (01:13:48):
Why do I only know that reference? Remember that episode?

Speaker 4 (01:13:55):
Put the hands on the knees crossing over right in
the back at the back of front Carls.

Speaker 6 (01:14:04):
Yeah, yeah, wow, before she go, can you tell us
about your dance documentary? Because I used to want to
be a dancer, but then I grew the breast, so
I am so into it.

Speaker 3 (01:14:13):
And did you ever get your Debbie Allen moment?

Speaker 4 (01:14:15):
I'm trump stalking de Wie Allen now to try and
get these interviews. This damn COVID has been a pain
in the ass. Man. He's a cock blocker. It's a production.

Speaker 6 (01:14:26):
I don't know about being a cock blocker. You had
to have that pre COVID so you can lock that up.

Speaker 4 (01:14:30):
But it's about uh, trust me, you know, I had
the clean house before then, unfortunately, and that's all I'm
open to talk about that too.

Speaker 5 (01:14:40):
Uh yeah, you had the clean house like you got
rid all.

Speaker 4 (01:14:43):
Like seventeen years and we broke up before the pandemic
and stuff like, oh, col you're fifteen. I found out
he had been having an affair with one of Usher's
dances for two years. We're trying to work stuff out.
I found out there was another chick who had been
around for eight years, and so in order for not
to get my remy ma on or end up in
an orange jumpsuit, I had to put them motherfucker out.

Speaker 5 (01:15:05):
So, oh, he was living y'all were living together at
the time.

Speaker 4 (01:15:11):
Day one. People always like, how do you not know?
I mean, granted, I'm a chick on tour and I've
seen multiple affairs and stuff happen, right, but this is
somebody who really, other than being on tour, never went out.
We had a studio in the back or whatever. But
the whole all the relationships were the chicky met in
Australia like this on zoom or FaceTime or whatever and

(01:15:32):
masturbation sessions. And you say not physical on time, Well no,
they were physical because us was dancing. Only lived a
couple of blocks away, and so whenever I had to
go out of town or whatever, they would hook up. Well,
the whole time that they were on the road and
I couldn't get out to the cities, you know, they
were hooking up. So and when you with somebody who
you can call at four o'clock in Morocco and be

(01:15:54):
on the phone or facetiming and see everybody in the room,
you don't realize the other chick might be on the
other side of the computer or he'll be like, go
to your room. I'll call you and right person saying
I love you. You mean my world to me. We're
trying to have a family, all these things in your
face and then doing all this other stuff over here.

Speaker 3 (01:16:13):
So girl, why would you still doing why are you.

Speaker 8 (01:16:18):
All this?

Speaker 2 (01:16:19):
Wait?

Speaker 6 (01:16:19):
Seriously, though, less I wonder it's about me and my
great my my music industry, cistern. Why do we dip
and dive in our in our ponds, Like why don't
you're Yes, you.

Speaker 3 (01:16:30):
You're just children.

Speaker 6 (01:16:31):
You're just children at the very at the very least
on a good day, your children.

Speaker 3 (01:16:35):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 6 (01:16:37):
Okay, So, and I'm curious for a grown as woman
like Les. I'm like, so it's time to get a
contractor accountant. Uh I mind you, I said to all.
I'm in the social services myself.

Speaker 4 (01:16:51):
Oh see, I've dated all kinds of guys. It doesn't
matter man's going she if he wants to cheat, right,
They have that fear of missing out. And it doesn't
matter whether you're a rock star and tour and everything's
easy for you, or if you go into an office
and the chick who sits in a cubicle next to
you is throw a pussy at you. It doesn't matter
if that. You know, John Sally said to me, the
best pussy is new pussy. And that's why men cheat.

(01:17:11):
And men get curious or the minute that you know
they feel like you're not giving them the attention, or
they get more attention over there, or they're having a
mid life crisis, or their ego needs to be fed
or whatever is. You know, they're gonna my men.

Speaker 5 (01:17:26):
And I'm not saying, I'm just I'm listening to y'all talk.

Speaker 3 (01:17:29):
But not to stay that.

Speaker 4 (01:17:30):
Women don't cheat either. I have some girls who are
cheatings too, who are married and cheating on their husbands
and whatever that is. And I'm just like, why when
you can have a conversation and you don't have to
be married, you don't have to be in a relationship.
You can decide to be single for the rest of
your life and have as many women as you want,
and even choose the one you want to have a
kid with. You can choose the one you want to
stay over four days a week. Like, you can have

(01:17:51):
those conversations and live the life you want. You don't
have to be like this is us, this is me.
Like year three, we had done our life insurance policy,
our living trust, we had on our wheels, our health
prop all this stuff except for being officially married. We
were trying to have a family together. Why are you
still trying to have a family with me if you're unhappy?
And then I find out about the affair and you're
begging not to end it, So obviously you're not that unhappy.

(01:18:13):
You just wanted a little taste. He had a little taste,
So we don't need to be.

Speaker 5 (01:18:18):
Together, and you just found out at the end, like
this is recent, like before came the end.

Speaker 4 (01:18:24):
Yeah, it became the end year like I said, And
I'm not one who's very forgiving. I'm usually very light up.
And so when I found out you were a year
fifteen and a half together, and literally I'm not a snooper,
none of that. He says something that made me just
be like, wait what. And I looked at one thing
and then everything unround. God puts everything in your face.

(01:18:46):
And I had named addresses, emails, text messages, receipts, all
of that stuff. So I talked to like twelve different people,
couples who were married. Eleven of the twelve were like,
go to therapy, try and find forgive this. See what
that looks like for you. Give it another shot. Four
months in I find out about the chick who've been
around for eight years in Australia. We're not talking one

(01:19:10):
night's stance. We're talking relationships. We're talking emotional connections. We're
talking emails, we're talking gifts. We're talking you're putting money,
taking money out of our household into their household. We're
talking you have an unprotected sex and now you're putting
my health at risk. And if I had made a
phone call or if I was that chick on an
episode of Snaps.

Speaker 3 (01:19:27):
I was about we're talking where your girls at.

Speaker 4 (01:19:32):
It got to a point where once I put him
out and California does not have uh oh my god,
what do you call it?

Speaker 5 (01:19:41):
Property?

Speaker 3 (01:19:42):
Not that common law?

Speaker 4 (01:19:45):
Common law doesn't exist, hasn't existed since like the I
knew that, and all the properties were mine, and so
I realized I did have a case. You can't just
treat somebody like that, put their health at risk, make
promises to the so that now I'm pulling myself out
for you and instead of I could have had a
whole family with somebody else.

Speaker 6 (01:20:06):
So they don't know about our time. They don't know
how precious our time is. I don't know why these.

Speaker 3 (01:20:10):
Motherfuckers keep playing with our time. Life is not even
I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (01:20:14):
But to empower women have options. And before I recognizing
that that you can't do that to other people. So
him putting my risk and you know, thank god I
didn't catch anything, because you're really talking to me in
orange jumpsuit. But that happened, or the fact that you
know you wasted my time or made promises, it came
with a price, and there's not any amount of money

(01:20:34):
that's going to get my time back, from my fertility back,
None of that but I guarantee you every time that ship,
that check shows up, it shows how expensive that extracurricular
pussy was for him.

Speaker 5 (01:20:44):
So y'all him, he has to pay you.

Speaker 4 (01:20:51):
I can only say the word settlement, but absent fucking
movement on my tears. I had to remind you I was.
I have to remind myself that my cake was in
the back, like I'm a New York too. Wait a minute,
what just happened?

Speaker 2 (01:21:03):
Haig? Enough?

Speaker 3 (01:21:04):
My time is money. My time is money.

Speaker 4 (01:21:08):
So to all you out there, you better teach your
daughters they don't have to stand for no bullshit. Teach
your sons that they don't have to be in a
relationship that doesn't have an explanation of terms about what
it is you want. Because people, you don't have to
be married. We don't have to live together. I can agree,
or you can be with somebody else, And all you
have to do is say three words, I'm not happy,

(01:21:29):
this ain't working. I want out right. Not all these
years of all this extra curricular stuff. That was devastating,
absolutely devastating to me. I've never been so broken in
my life. You know, to the point where you have
to like go to therapy to talk to someone because
you're tired of talking to your friends and every time
you come around and you're like, oh, here you come again.

(01:21:50):
At all that thoughts that you don't even recognize who
you are because this person that you trust, right, if
it's somebody you don't know, you're not that devastated by
the disappointment or the broken It's the people that are
closest to you, that you trust with your life, that
devastate you and betray you.

Speaker 3 (01:22:05):
And that's a long time.

Speaker 4 (01:22:07):
Absolutely, I would have given this to the kidney, and
I think and our families were so close to the
point where my mom would fly to Texas and stay
with his mom or he, you know, say fly to
New York or whatever. So you're breaking up families. I
was the sisters, the godmother of his niece. You know,
I can't talk to them anymore of the you know,
all this stuff. My mother is his sister's son, all

(01:22:30):
of that. So because you wanted some extra pussy.

Speaker 5 (01:22:35):
When you talk about the settlement, I know you can't
say we talk about the settlement, what was it on
the grounds of the.

Speaker 4 (01:22:41):
Grounds of the fact that he put my health at risk.
I'm speaking out of not legal terms, but there's the term,
but putting my health at risk for making promises for
uh he met, I was able to prove that he

(01:23:01):
had promised to take care of me. We're in this relationship,
blah blah blah, financial contributions and all that other stuff. Yeah,
there were a lot of grounds that he had to
be held accountable for. That is, I couldn't mention the affairs.
So it wasn't even about the affairs. It was about
the only thing in which the affair maybe played a
part in was because my health was a thing that

(01:23:23):
he had intentional intention to harm. I think it's what
it's called or something like that. But the affairs had
no play in it. And it had to be that
because we were living as husband and wife for seventeen years,
that there's a price on it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:36):
Now.

Speaker 4 (01:23:36):
Had we been married in California for like ten years
and he automatically would have had to pay five years.
If we were married, say nine years and eleven months,
then the price is negotiable. I fall under even with
the promises that I was able to prove, you know,
him taking care of me and the life that we're
going to lead and that we were starting to have
a family and doing all this other stuff, I fall
under the negotiation whatever, and so he opted for mediation,

(01:24:01):
and that's what happened. But there's a lawyer.

Speaker 6 (01:24:04):
Yeah, it's a class.

Speaker 3 (01:24:09):
At the least it's it's a class. I'm there.

Speaker 4 (01:24:11):
I literally started to google stuff, and I knew because
like I've always done my paperwork, my mother always said,
if you have kids, or if you own property, make
sure your trust and your will are done so that
you never have to deal with it again. Even when
I bought my first property in nineteen ninety one or
whatever it was, I made sure that it was taken
care of in a trust. So then I bought a house.

(01:24:32):
He moved into both properties with me. I was smart enough,
even though I included him as beneficiary on certain things,
to sign something that said, even with the equity, that
he couldn't gain anything because he tried to come after
my property. But being a smart street, smart look smart chick,
he couldn't kid so. But yeah, I literally just was

(01:24:52):
googling some stuff. And then when I realized that there
was no common law in California, but I actually had
other rights, and that there's something that's called the Marvin
claim or a case that was called Marvin versus Marvin.
Where you live with someone now they have like cohabitation laws,
but where you live with someone under the guise of
being a family and being supported in that way. And
you can prove it whether I didn't have to quit

(01:25:14):
a job just to say I'm helping him with his business,
but clearly I did along the way. There's a price
that needs to be paid for that. So women have rights.
And I'll just say this to you guys again, Like
I said, you don't have to enter the women out
there who are cheating. You can have a relationship where
you can have twenty partners and nobody has to get
hurt and everybody's agreeable. You know, you want to be

(01:25:35):
married and she and just be like, I'm not happy,
that's what it is, and get out. But you don't
have to cause all that damage and all that wreckage
and all that be trust or put somebody's health at risk.
For all of that and all the women who don't
know what to do, get yourself a lawyer and do
what you need to do.

Speaker 2 (01:25:51):
I'm glad you learned this lesson.

Speaker 5 (01:25:52):
Before March, I couldn't imagine being quarantine with somebody like that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:00):
The most pregnancy and the most breakups I've ever seen
in my Like, yeah, shit, I'm lucky with crazy because
everyone else is falling. By the ways.

Speaker 4 (01:26:13):
That the divorce rates have like tripled during this porn
right because you're either with either you're romanticizing the fact
that you're in this COVID or you're with somebody that
you didn't really want to be with anyway. And you
guys were on the verge and people now are just
like fuck it, they're filing between the kids and this
and that or whatever, you know. So I'm like, even
in my book and all that other stuff I'm working on,

(01:26:33):
I'll be very open about the details about how I
found out what happened. I mean, it's crazy because every
people who know don't want to say anything, and then
once they find out that you know, people start talking.
So even his friends start whatever. But I don't know
how I became like super sloop and things just start
falling in your lap or you start paying attention because

(01:26:54):
when you're with somebody you trust, you don't feel like
you have to look at anything else, so you're just
kind of this business is you. And then when you
start remembering when such and such happened, or the day
that he said he was going to the studio, and
I'm like, why you got on so much cologne? All
the bottles built?

Speaker 3 (01:27:10):
Wait but that night.

Speaker 4 (01:27:18):
But I didn't think twice about you know what I mean?
So yeah, But the documentary, as you asked me about,
is about the women of nineties hip hop dancing, because
we always hear about the rock Steady Crew, Like I
even had a conversation with rock people Cannon of the
hip Hop Mujam, and all they always talk about is
just the guys or the rock Steady Crew, who I
love crazy legs and was like, those are my guys.

(01:27:39):
But I'm like, you're forgetting about the whole Golden era.
You forget about what these women have contributed to, these
visuals that are art, like give us our love.

Speaker 3 (01:27:47):
So I wanted y'all to slow down that Don't Rush video.

Speaker 6 (01:27:49):
I was like, wait, that's who that's my girlfriend D'Angelo video.

Speaker 4 (01:27:52):
That's oh oh wait, Yeah, that was a nice place.
I'm in a place now. I can't talk to John Singleton.
I can't I talked to Heavy Bee, I can't hook
to Michael. I can't talk to Whitney. I can't talk
to Andre herrel to get these stories told. These are
some of the most iconic pieces of work, you know,
less to talk about. And Andre and I had literally

(01:28:14):
had scheduled, you know, getting on camera and stuff, and
you know this happened. You know, I just thank god
interview with Teddy Riley and stuff. I got to get
my mom on camera, you know what I mean, Like,
these stories have to be told. And I'm sure the
same for you, Puss, Like all these people you've worked
for and everyone else you've crosspath with all these people
and part of your history and your legacy, and you

(01:28:35):
want to get the best version of you know, the
things that you imagine or didn't even imagine for yourself
as an eight year old kid. And here you are
at the highest level or at these experiences, whether they
come back around and not, and you want to be
able to let hear what these people thought about you,
or why they hired you, or what it is you
brought to the table, and you can't and how you
created damn.

Speaker 5 (01:28:57):
You.

Speaker 4 (01:28:58):
I don't think any of us went into it with
an intention other than to do what we love, you know,
And I'm glad it's resonated, so.

Speaker 2 (01:29:08):
Wow wow, Well, thank you for sharing your story with us.

Speaker 5 (01:29:11):
Les Yeah, thank you for real and thank you you
were as a latch told about being a latch ski
kid in New York. I was a latchkey kid in
North Carolina in Greensboro, and I used to come home
every day and I would watch Rap City and you
were my babysitter for like two years. So much love
and appreciation for all you've done.

Speaker 2 (01:29:32):
Seriously, we thank you for being our babysitter, big Less. Everybody, hey,
and thank you.

Speaker 6 (01:29:37):
For redefining a woman. Thank you for redefining woman image
of a woman on TV.

Speaker 3 (01:29:41):
Like that's amazing.

Speaker 5 (01:29:43):
Yes, yes, Like even when they was like that name
big les I mean because in the South, I'm like,
she ain't big. I can show you, I can show
you big. You want to see big, she ain't big.

Speaker 4 (01:29:53):
But because it went from being like I see people
who are like you're not that big, Yeah you're not fantastic,
or people are like she must be a lesbian because
of Less, I'm like I heard that ship nothing else,
tim Timothy Dave, David les Leslie. That's it. It's just
that simple. Otherwise I'd have a book, deal to TV
show like Ellen, if I please.

Speaker 2 (01:30:17):
Out there, You'll have it less.

Speaker 3 (01:30:19):
You are loved, You are loved.

Speaker 5 (01:30:20):
Just know that you really are real.

Speaker 2 (01:30:23):
Ladies and gentlemen on behalf of Fonzigelow and I'm Pepe
Bill and Sugar Steve.

Speaker 1 (01:30:30):
And like ya.

Speaker 2 (01:30:31):
Thank you lest Love Supreme. We will see you on
the next go around.

Speaker 4 (01:30:37):
Love you guys, West.

Speaker 1 (01:30:45):
Love Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio.

Speaker 2 (01:30:50):
For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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Hosts And Creators

Laiya St. Clair

Questlove

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