Black Music Month QLS Classic: James Mtume Part 2

In part 2 of 2 of Questlove Supreme's 2017 interview with James Mtume, the late legend gets on a roll, talking about everything from his legal problems with Wrigley's Gum, to working with his idol Curtis Mayfield and the importance of passing down your story (and wisdom).

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic
episode was produced by the team at Pandora.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
What up, y'all is Laiyah from Team Supreme. Okay, So
it's June, and you know it is Black Music Month. Now,
this month and its cause was started by my godmother,
Dianna Williams, the legendary Kenny Gamble, and the great ed
right back in nineteen seventy nine after being invited to
the White House along with the Black Music Association. Now,
the Black Music Association was a group of black folks

(00:31):
that were the best of the best of the music industry.
I'm talking record execs, I'm talking radio people, I'm talking artists.
I'm talking to everybody from Clarence Avon and Frankie Crocker
to Percy Sutton, everybody in the middle right. So they
all get invited to this big party on the White
House lawn June seventh, nineteen seventy nine. And before the
performances started, President Carter said many things addressing and reminding

(00:52):
people of the importance of black music. Monk, and one
of the things he said was end quote in many ways,
the feelings of our own black citizens throughout the history
of our country has been accurately expressed in the music,
and it presents a kind of history of our nation
when you go back and see the evolution of black
music word. So we've spoken a lot about black music

(01:14):
months on Questloves Supreme, and this June we are running
a different episode from the QLs archives every single day
in the name Spirit and Cause of Black music.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
Mom Next up.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
We are honoring a legend who has transitioned and so
we continue to honor him, the amazing James m Two men.

Speaker 4 (01:38):
So, uh, after you want to gram me for the closer,
I get to you. Correct, I hope you did.

Speaker 5 (01:45):
Yeah, yeah, I stumbled for a minute because you know
that I never cared about that. Really, I didn't care
about that. I don't even know where that thing is, man,
what that's five? They tell you, my son. So I
had it somewhere. So I was somewhere out and Fire

(02:07):
told me one day he was practicing, you know, trying
to be Michael Jackson, he said, and he spun and
he overspun and the thing fluck flung out his fingers.

Speaker 4 (02:17):
And broke broke the ground.

Speaker 5 (02:18):
So he was like, like, really, oh God, what I'm
to say? He tried to glue it and when I
got home mess I don't really care about that because
I was so offended that back then. Why was I offended?
Back then? They didn't give the Black Awards on television.
It was doing the commercial now, well your hip hop

(02:43):
caught it. But R and B was like, we don't
announce we won the best arm B Record of the
Year and it was doing the commercials And they come
back and said, well, earlier to night we announced. It's
a messive. Man. I don't know, but I never really cared.
I don't have gold records and platinums on my hanging nowhere,
am I right? Yet they're in the basement in a
box in my garage. What look, man?

Speaker 2 (03:05):
What is hanging on the what's hanging on? I'm just
I was just curious. Now you said, I'm like, what
kind of aids?

Speaker 5 (03:18):
Anything that you like? I don't have. No, I'm not
into I'm not a collector. I don't want to. You know,
saund that that that adventurous. But I see something I
like it.

Speaker 4 (03:31):
Did you did you work on, uh the what you're
gonna do from with my love and album with Steffani
emails or what you're gonna do with or is it
sweets and station? Now? Yes, first four. So you guys
did put your body in and all that stuff, and
that's my ship. I'm sorry.

Speaker 5 (03:50):
I boom boom boom boom.

Speaker 4 (03:53):
Yeah, I really should my notes and I'm just speaking
as an off the Cup fan. So what is it?
What's it like working with an artist of Stephanie's statute
where like, almost in my head, I think in that
time period I would put her okay and as far

(04:13):
as the the the challenge difficulty category, I would put
her in almost Patty in the same basket, where it's like,
you know, the talent is there, you know the voice
is there, and you know that a lot of their
a lot of their varieties based on the the gymnastic yeah,
the high note in the in the fanciness of it.

(04:35):
But it's like when you're making pop records, you gotta sing.
The song has to be right and disciplined. So how
do you discipline a sing a singer like Stephanie Mills
that's able to sing synk rings around you and just
tell it, look stick to the.

Speaker 5 (04:55):
Well, here's the entry again, story behind everything that wasn't
Stephanie's first's album. A lot of people don't know that. Okay,
she had an album before that that was written and
produced by two of my main inspirations, Burt Backrack and
how David.

Speaker 4 (05:10):
Wait on twenty she was on Another Lady.

Speaker 5 (05:12):
Yeah, okay, look it up. So these cats, well, I
had three inspirations. First was Curtis Mayfield, then it was
Burt back David, then was Holland oser In Holland, and
then later on obviously Gambling Huff and Tom Bell. But

(05:35):
and Tom Bell kind of took Backrack and David and
blackened it more. But it was sorry but I don't know, no,
I don't know what it was on. But so I'm like, damn,
I gotta come behind cats that all that, you know,
Dion Warwick all that. I was like, oh my god,
the mistake that they made. They produced her like she's done,

(05:55):
She's not dem she's something else. So we have a
first meeting with Stephanie. I had just left Roberta. We
were finished. I told her this is the last tour.
I didn't have nothing that there wasn't no work. But
the whole band quit when I quit, and I was like,

(06:18):
I ain't got no work from nobody, and I get
the call. It said me and Reggie. I said, man,
we had partnered with Famous Music. We did a publishing
a fifty fifty things. So they called and said, man,
look have you ever produced anything. I said, yeah, but
none of us been released. I ain't produced nothing, man

(06:39):
but a headache. So they sent us back then you
would get seed money to do demos. So they sent
I think maybe fifteen grand do three songs. First three
songs we cut what you're gonna do with my loving
put your body in it and deeper inside your love.
And I remember telling them if you can't hear this,

(07:00):
and to Watha singing all the references demo, you have those, no, no, no,
but see, let me tell you one of the everybody
has a little things that they do. One of the
things that we did that was kind of different in

(07:21):
recording back then, I recorded with the synth players being there.
They were part of the rhythm section. To Watha sang
on every take. I wanted the musicians to be playing
with the feeling. So everything you ever heard coming out
of Philisheim and all that is to Watha singing the leads,

(07:42):
you know here comes to everybody's in But you're playing
with greater voice to.

Speaker 4 (07:46):
Do it to.

Speaker 5 (07:48):
But it made it made it even warmer. And and
and the cats play, you know with more So.

Speaker 4 (07:53):
When Stephanie Mills and subsequently Phil Simon are getting these
demos so on you're saying that on the you know
how to Love Me Full the Time and demo, she's
ghosting like she's studying listening to how.

Speaker 5 (08:08):
To wout every song we ever did to Watcher's recording.
While maybe sometimes you got six takes, she's singing on
every take because I wanted that emotion there. And when
you get it and you send it that you know
to the whatever you know that you getting ready to do,
so they know how the song goes. But what better

(08:28):
reference now?

Speaker 4 (08:30):
And in your crew? First of all, how did you
guys decide and short of them in the Chard way
of things, how did you guys decide the name of
the group is going to be? And two man, I
didn't like why not Lucas?

Speaker 5 (08:42):
No, we did well. I went when I went to Epic,
we was gonna name the band Mindbender. I mean because
everybody was on p funk. You know, we do the
costumes and it was a guy who had the promotions
at epic named Paris Ealy and Paris said no man,

(09:07):
he said him too, May And I was like, are
you crazy? People? You know today mister Muttmin was here,
I mean made that was so weird. We're talking about
nineteen seventy eight. And he said, no, this is what
we'll do. He said, I know it's people don't know
how to pronounce it. He said, we'll call it.

Speaker 4 (09:26):
He said.

Speaker 5 (09:27):
The one thing about that, he said, once you know
that name, you'll never forget it. And he said, and
we'll put the albums out with it phonetically spelled out
how to say it, dash t oo dash m a y.

Speaker 4 (09:40):
It's on your first album. I have a copy of
the album, which is like M two main pronounced yeah.

Speaker 5 (09:46):
And I you know, because I felt weird about it
because I didn't It was like, man, I don't want none.
That's not what the group was about.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
The people in the group.

Speaker 5 (09:54):
Well, I thought the cast would go yo man, but
they were like okay, because they it makes it's something
about it that does make sense. Well, I mean, I
didn't go to that deep, but it was that. But
that's how that's that. I didn't have nothing to do
with that.

Speaker 4 (10:09):
It's just like, okay, man, okay, there's a question about
your record, and I understand, I guess, and I got
your first album maybe when I started like my first
round digging, like in the late eighties. So when I
discovered there were albums before the Juicy Fruit, why didn't
you guys ever think of making yes a complete song?

Speaker 5 (11:18):
Erica actually get ready to say Erica Bad called me, yeah,
and she said, that's one of my favorite That was
the sludy seconds. Yeah. Well, you know what, I'm also
kind of humorous. And if you notice, the first time,
I think we got to play for the people, and
then the next time we played that's when I you know,

(11:40):
I hated astrology. Man, what are you what you're signed?
I said, coach sign, you know, And so we did
that little take That was just my personal hatred.

Speaker 4 (11:53):
I realized it. But the groove was so monstious. Man,
I'm like, y'all don't even know, like next to roy
are is that?

Speaker 6 (12:00):
That?

Speaker 4 (12:00):
To me is like that could to be the beginning
and the father of like some neo soul, Like that's
our blueprint.

Speaker 5 (12:10):
Asparagus, Chill Rising Laws, my sign, Spinach the community Pea. Well,
that was like we tried.

Speaker 4 (12:31):
Erica tried to get us to do that. I think
we oh really after who was after Mama's Gone? Uh,
worldwide underground, world Wide Underground. The one idea worked on
before it was we we tried to make that into
a jam. I mean, it's still somewhere up there, so
maybe so bring it back.

Speaker 5 (12:52):
Talk to me about Lovelock. That's like one of my
favorite song. Look god, look, so where did that come from?
We were working on the album. I had that thing,
you know, the magic to that record. It's Watha and

(13:17):
we hit up there's a groove that gets we get into,
especially towards the end, and I'm playing you know, acoustic,
and I'm going through this Latin ding ding d tink
and she just it was just magic. Man, it was magic.
I mean I remember we cut that in one tape. Yeah,
And you know, some sometimes that's that's how it goes.

(13:40):
Some ship you cut recut and it just don't work.
But that just and it really was a combination of
arm and B and jazz, it really was. And uh,
but her it's her saying and I think floord for
him and I are told we did it, But it's
her performance.

Speaker 6 (13:58):
Man, that makes total sense that flow.

Speaker 5 (14:00):
Now you know what I thought of it? Wow, when
we did I thought I always thought of it like
an airline commercial, you know, fly T zero A whatever.

Speaker 6 (14:12):
I love that song and thank you for that.

Speaker 4 (14:13):
There's there's there's a member of your team that we
haven't mentioned yet. And I gotta say, man, like talk
about work with Hubert Eves the third and yeah, like
him being part of the team, like what.

Speaker 5 (14:29):
Hubert and I had played together on the jazz circuit.
You know everybody in the band, okay, the first band incarnation,
Basil Farrington on bass, Hubert Eves, myself, Reggie ed Tree,
Moore of the guitarist, uh, Howard King Locksmith and we

(14:54):
all were jazz musicians, so Ubert uh, you know, we
played different gigs together her and so when we put
the band together, we all was the band. The recording
band unit came out of roberta flat. We all played
with Roberta And when we left, I said, well, man,

(15:15):
when we started getting you know, production gigs, I said,
this would be the rhythm section because you got to
have a sound. What's your signature? And we weren't like
anybody else, you know, you had Nile and Bernard that
was happening at the same time. It was a few people,
but we had our own unit. The singers it was
was Tawatha. Uh no, no, no, no, Sidney, Cindy was

(15:43):
I mean Sidney on a couple of things. But the
of course sisters that she's dead now a great singer
out of NewYork, Brenda White, Tawatha Brenda White and wow,
forgive me. Yeah. But uh, we had our own unit.

Speaker 4 (16:04):
And how did you discover it? To Watsa, how did
she come into the circle.

Speaker 5 (16:09):
The first demo me and Reggyeaver cut was this group
called hot Tea out of Howard University. It was to
Watsa and Angela Winbush.

Speaker 4 (16:16):
Oh my bro, you're just sitting on that.

Speaker 5 (16:22):
Wow. So they were all a part of Howard it was.
It was. It was a group, a group of five.
No there was before there were a gospel group and
uh it was five members. But I'm saying, you know,
to Watha and Aelup was in it. And we cut
the demo. You know, we couldn't sell it. But out
of that it was to Watsa, you know, and we've

(16:43):
been together forty one years. As a matter of fact,
I'm getting ready to cut an EP order. You know,
we're gonna give it a shot. I'm not doing a
lot of the writing because you know, you got to
know you know what time it is, you know, and
it's it's you know, we got some young writers and stuff.

(17:03):
But I'll be dealing with the melodies, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 4 (17:07):
Okay, I'm not going to try and throw a monkey
wrench in, but here's here's the monkey wrench. No, because okay,
to hear, to hear, you describe it as far as like,
you know, move forward, don't burn the I mean burn
the bridge and don't look in the rearview mirror and
let the young people lead the way. But I also

(17:31):
feel like we need to know to kind of know
the way and not let the blind lead the blind.

Speaker 5 (17:41):
So well, I agree.

Speaker 4 (17:42):
I still I don't think ideas just expiring people. So
I mean, I don't want I personally don't don't want
you to feel like, okay, well I don't have ideas to.

Speaker 5 (17:54):
No, I don't feel like that. But here's why I
agree with you. In terms of what happens to black music.
The professors were thrown out of class. There was this
what I call a breakdown in the cultural continuity with
arm bing funk and when hip hop was coming along.

(18:15):
There was also a struggle a a in a generational
struggle M younger black U k uh uh of men
and older blacks. Y. My generation was looking down. That
ain't music, young cats. You know y'all coming through. Man,
You know f that? So I said, Man, one day
I woke up and said, man, if you got all
age and no youth, your glass is half full. All

(18:36):
youth with no age, your glass is half empty. Right now,
we got a half a glass of music. These conversations
are what's needed. M Man. I I learned from y'all,
but I can give you what I know, but be
open to learn from what y'all doing. There's not enough
sharing of information in black music. That's the problem. Young
Black kids grow up with the history of their music.

(18:57):
I used to watch the d grateful dead be great parents,
parents and kids. Your cultural continuity is a real thing.
We had a real breakdown because of the social thing.
What happened. I always said, my generation began to look
at y'all through other eyes, like y'all wasn't as we

(19:19):
weren't teaching. It was a breakdown.

Speaker 4 (19:21):
Speaking of that jazz, all that jazz. Let's talk about
that jazz. Okay, So, of course to a lot of
the to the classic hip hop, uh luminaries that that
are are well versed in the culture and that owns
of sonics and full gear many many will We'll get

(19:44):
out of here with that.

Speaker 5 (19:45):
But let's go.

Speaker 4 (19:46):
Dude, until you said that, I totally forgot you were
the subject of that.

Speaker 5 (19:50):
Song youth Vader.

Speaker 4 (19:51):
So no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't I don't
even know. I didn't know. He so talking all that
jazz was about that's about here even here the hear
them like sample.

Speaker 5 (20:05):
I'm gonna knock you out. Yeah, here's here's what happened.

Speaker 4 (20:09):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (20:10):
I co host a black talk show called Open Line
Our Voices, Yeah, openly, and so we were having a discussion.

Speaker 4 (20:20):
What time did it come on?

Speaker 5 (20:24):
No no, no, no, no, no no no. This is before
they ripped it up. It was a decent hour. But
we were having a debate, a discussion on a debate
about what was the thing that knocked knocked this out?
Doing a year in review of what happened on the year,
and I said, man, I've only had been done this

(20:45):
a few times in my life. I know you. I've
been up here about what five hours? Oh no, dude,
start dreaming interview shadow So uh that was the word.
I was good.

Speaker 4 (21:00):
No, please give us all the stories.

Speaker 5 (21:02):
So we were talking about what knocked you out. I said, well,
I've only done this a couple times in my life. Well,
I'm driving and something came on the radio and I
had to pull over. What it was was bring the noise. Wow.
Now I didn't know nothing about sampling. I'm thinking, these
cats are playing in all these different keys tilious month

(21:25):
or stepoids later on, I hooked up with Frank Shockley,
I mean with Shockley, and he explained to me about sampling. Anyway,
to make a long story short. In that same conversation,
I said, the thing that knocked me out was public Enemy.
But I also delved into a subject that nobody wanted
to touch on. I said sampling. At that time, cats

(21:50):
didn't know how to play for the most part. But
that became a badge of honor. I said, wait a minute.
If you want to be a lawyer, you got to
know something about what law. You want to be a doctor,
you gotta know something about what medicine. Why you want
to be in music, but you don't need to know
nothing about music. And I said, I'm not against sampling
as a pit stop, don't live there. And I said,

(22:12):
and if you're gonna sample somebody's music, pay them, that's
all I said. So a lot of people got offended.
And I gotta say this, Daddy or heard that he
was listening to this. What here is how we started
heard you on the radio talking.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
About rap, saying all that crap about how we sample.

Speaker 5 (22:30):
Give an example. We'll let you get away with that
to criticize our methods how we make You said that
wasn't art, So now we're gonna rip you apart. And
they took it that way. That's not I was not saying.
First of all, how could I say sampling is jag
as much as I you know, said juicy You kidding?
But I said, at that time, they weren't paying you know,

(22:52):
the so and so. Yeah, man, So it didn't really
start turning around until me, me, myself and I came
out and they sampled still a man, old peg.

Speaker 4 (23:05):
Old peg, that's what.

Speaker 5 (23:07):
But during that time they weren't paying James and all
the people. Man. Only when I did the juicy food deal.
With Puffy and I gotta say this. I was doing
New York undercover. I was me and Andre Heral were
meeting and and and Andre said, look, my Puffy wants
to holler at you for a minute. So Puffy comes in.
Hey to him, I said, buff, what's up? He said, Man,

(23:27):
I want you to meet my artist. He said, Biggie
small Biggie comes in, sweetheart man, I said, boom. He said, look, man,
I want to sample juicy food. Man, I'll say this
about Puffy. We sat down. In a few minutes, we
did a page and a half. It ain't no long conversation.
You get a dollar, like you fifty cents. That's all

(23:49):
it is. I said. But a lot of that became
a thing. And I because I was the only cat
talking about that, and that record came out, I became
and I was doing handles and stuff and oh man,
you hate hip hop. I'm like, nod that answer your question.
And me and Daddy O are fabulous friends. Now okay,

(24:13):
go ahead, okay, So okay, So I want to know
when Madonna enters the picture, why was Reggie the only
person and producer?

Speaker 2 (24:29):
Not you?

Speaker 5 (24:29):
We broke up, Damn. Here's here's timing. No, not really.
I did the Juicy Food album. Ain't I ain't sorry.
Here's what happened. There's a point when you're partnering, you're

(24:51):
starting to have other.

Speaker 4 (24:53):
Thoughts.

Speaker 5 (24:54):
You've exhausted what that partnership was supposed to do. I
remember earlier I said, well what kept things together? Well, success,
like the saying is success needs no explanation, fair can
never be explained. So damn when I started, success needs
no explanation, and failure can never be explained.

Speaker 4 (25:13):
He's like outquoding fante. You a coffee table book. I
would read it just like I'd read It's.

Speaker 5 (25:24):
Like I was starting to hear that I was done.
I remember I always tell the story man. One day
I sat down at the piano man to write, and
I started tears started coming down my eyes. I didn't
know what was happening. And then I realized, Man, this
sounds like all of the.

Speaker 6 (25:44):
Ship you was just done before.

Speaker 5 (25:45):
And I was like, oh my god. I felt wrights
blockade and I said, you got it. What I say, man,
that it was time for that bridge to be burned.
I didn't. I didn't hear strings and horns with the
big arrangements to lush. I was hearing what I call

(26:07):
neo minimalism, how to take this and make it sound
like that? Then that was a Juicy Food album. On
that song, man, there's only four inches. I say, yeah,
it's not it sounds like this, But I was hearing
something different. Reggie was feeling something different. He hooked up
with Madonna. I was doing Juicy Fruit. He did Madonna, so.

Speaker 4 (26:31):
He didn't work on the third and two May record.

Speaker 5 (26:34):
What was that one? Oh? Okay, no, no, so that
was you? Yeah, yeah, I think what I did. I
might have said one of the tunes we did, but
it really wasn't.

Speaker 4 (26:48):
No.

Speaker 5 (26:48):
No, that's all me. Oh man, okay, but that wasn't like.

Speaker 4 (26:54):
It was a you know, some anger. No, it was like, yeah,
where is Reggie? To this day you rarely hear of
him on the scene or I don't know.

Speaker 5 (27:04):
Reggie's cool. We talked with matter fact, we just talked
the other day. I just decided, like you said, it's
not a lot of I don't do even do these
kind of you know, I five and my daughter have
convinced me. No, man, you seventy man, come on man,
you split this information goals. I just decided I just agreed,
Just agreed. Was it last week we started shooting the

(27:26):
unsung on My Life?

Speaker 2 (27:30):
And this is crazy too?

Speaker 5 (27:33):
Well, it's kind of nuts. Yeah, it's kind of nuts. Uh.
It's from everything from my father who's ninety Wow, you
know too, you know, young cats, you know, and and
and sisters you know. But I've been around a long time.
I've been doing this fifty years. Man.

Speaker 4 (27:53):
That's that's crazy. It's not even long enough for me.
There's more, there's more to do, So, you know, I
don't even know if you're aware of this, but I
was going to say that a lot of a lot
of hip hop heads. Of course, you know, a lot

(28:14):
of people would think that Juicy is your go to record.
But what I was telling Fonte earlier upstairs was.

Speaker 6 (28:23):
That and I didn't know this was your record.

Speaker 4 (28:25):
It was this was when uh, for some reason kick
apri Oh exactly record like that's his go to intro record,
his freestyle record for rappers, like he's been spinning that forever.

(28:45):
And I never what song is that. It's called Biggest Theme,
Biggest Beat.

Speaker 5 (28:51):
It's from I scored this Native Native. It was a movie,
your first movie I did, And.

Speaker 4 (29:00):
I can't find it nowhere, but like kick Capri must
have at least like eight copies of the Red Yeah.

Speaker 5 (29:08):
Yeah, when the album the what do you call them?
Soundtrack not the soundtrack scores. Yeah, it wasn't no like
soundtracks became songs later, but there was this score and
kid jumped on it. And I remember telling keV. I
remember grand Master Flash called me, said, mall the tunes.
I want to come by and holler at you. So

(29:29):
he came over to Jersey. I live in South Orange
and so grand Master was telling me, Man, he said, man,
you know why we like your music? He said it's holy.
He said, I don't mean like religious holy. He said,
you got a lot of holes. We can take snippets.
And I didn't really, you know, fully understand. I did understand,
but not fully. And uh, Miles introduced the idea to

(29:52):
you for space Hey man, quotations, there you go? And
where was I going? Man? Oh oh with biggest, biggest
them and uh so that's what prepared me for New
York Undercover.

Speaker 4 (30:12):
How was it? Uh? In in that sort of.

Speaker 5 (30:14):
I didn't mean to make that, making the transition. I
should have waited.

Speaker 4 (30:19):
So we're working in uh that medium of television and scoring, Like,
how easy was that to episode for episode? I personally
it's easy to you or no, I find it hard. Yeah,
So what was the pressure like of deadline?

Speaker 5 (30:40):
First? Okay, with truth be told? I breathed. I get
to l a that the pilot is done. You don't
have to do a visual music for a pilot. I
go out there maybe to put a couple of things on.

(31:00):
It was me and I took a brother because I
didn't know scoring for television. When I said, you know,
I didn't know, I want to I got to know.
And this thing came up quick. When Andrew called me,
so dun Pearson was like my go to guy. He
was a music director for with h O Jay's and
so I said, so when we talk and I want

(31:21):
to know, what's the Q? What's you know how to
read at the time? You know? Because frames? How many
frames per second? And I go out there, man, dick
Wolf said, Man on we arrive on Friday, Dick Wolf says, man,
I need a theme Monday. First of all, I don't

(31:46):
even have any instruments. What do you but you know? No, no, no, no.

Speaker 4 (31:51):
No, this is a true story. It was gonna be
Saturday man.

Speaker 5 (31:54):
I called my brother and he called uh uh uh
brother that programmed everything for us. He did the uh
uh the Chronic.

Speaker 6 (32:06):
Album Colin Wolf.

Speaker 5 (32:08):
No, oh, man, this is crazy program. Uh but you
look going the credits for the team me done and
this brother did the team. But because I knew I
wanted we originally we were supposed to have a cat
that was gonna Andre said he had a guy that
we're gonna do all the beats. The night before we

(32:29):
leaving to go to La I go to his crib
because when I called him, I said, man, you know
we're leaving tomorrow. He said, well tunes. I'm not comfortable
because I wasn't gonna do beats, you know, like right right,
because I knew one thing I didn't want to do
nothing old and this was a chance to really put
a sound on television that had never been done. So

(32:51):
the night before we leave, he drops out. So my
brother gets to get the brother I got. You gotta
look it up with his name, and we do that.
It's the brother that did the chronic program the Chronic
and I take it they uh look up for the
theme in New York on the cover writing credits.

Speaker 4 (33:09):
Uh, it's just showing your name is the writer.

Speaker 5 (33:12):
That's bullshit. I'm telling you it's it's just incorrect. It's
done piercing myself in the Southern. But so they reject
the theme. I bring the theme Monday morning. First of all,
they were shot, you know, man, look I'm talking about no,
I gotta have this. They rejected it. There was a
woman named rock sand Lapel that worked at Universal.

Speaker 4 (33:35):
Gregory Royal up the ball boss Bill.

Speaker 5 (33:40):
So yeah, because I did not want to, you know,
I no, never, I don't do that, she said. Dick
Wolf rejected it. She said, send me over that. That's
when we were you know, Dad's she said. I said, oh, man,
because I'm like, this is the best I can do.
I'm not because it was fresh, nothing like that. You

(34:03):
know who's playing the Saxon. That's the brother from earth
Wind and Fire and you no, no, no, no, no,
not that, not that earth Wind the original. So I'm like,
I'm fried man. So I sent it over to her.

(34:26):
It's a true story. She takes it to the to
the head the president of the television at Universal. She
calls me back, she said, I just played it for
the president. He said, this is exactly what we need
for this urban show and he said, also tell him
to mate. Thank you for Juicy Free man. Yo, that

(35:07):
is no dude, you don't understand.

Speaker 4 (35:09):
Like wait a minute, that was Thursday night.

Speaker 5 (35:11):
Like that was like that song always put me in
like the best move because it was like, I mean,
New It's Gonna Come was my favorite show and it
like starts off dark, but then it goes into that
that sax line is really beautiful and that's the jazz
parte and.

Speaker 4 (35:25):
It just said, like I just know, like I heard
that song and I just know it's Thursday and tomorrow's Friday.

Speaker 6 (35:30):
And this ship about.

Speaker 4 (35:35):
The thing is is that I thought you were going
someone else, somewhere else with the story, as in, you know,
we did an original theme that they didn't like. Then
we came up with them. I didn't realize that they.

Speaker 5 (35:44):
Heard this, rejected this well, and then took it back.
Here's what happened. We're talking true. There was some friction
with Dick and Andre. Andre was originally a co co
executive producer, and uh, there was some business all out.
I was kind of left out there hanging in the
middle of it. So Dick and I became very close,

(36:06):
but Initially he's looking at me as part of this
and I'm like, no, I'm not. That's my man. He
brought me in, but I'm serious about this, and he
looked kind of looked at me like uh. And plus
he had his man, Mike Post. You gotta remember, Yeah,

(36:26):
so he was kind of forced to have to deal
with me, especially after the president of the of the
studio said no, man, this is what this is what
we want and I'm into no ego here, man, But
Mike Post can't do what. I couldn't do that because
to me, TV music was so staved and stale. And
here's the chase scene I'm talking about, you know, soprano

(36:51):
sacks and stuff. You hadn't heard that. Plus I'm doing
Natalie's I'm scoring this show and then I'm reproducing songs
for the club scene. Now let's talk about.

Speaker 4 (37:02):
Natal please, yes, let's talk about it.

Speaker 5 (37:04):
Natalie's in the script. The original script was just the
place where the cops, you know, uh my Leak and
Michael hung out the original if you watched the first season,
Gladys Knight is Natalie. She owns Natalie's. She was the
father's of Michael's father's ex girlfriend. I'm sitting there. I said, man,

(37:25):
you know what could be interesting New York Undercover the
first years nineteen ninety four, if you think about it,
ar Senior Hall had been taken off. There was no
place to hear or see a black R and B band.
I said, man, you know what we can do. I'll
bring in young current artists and redo a classic, bringing

(37:47):
the classic artists to redo their hits. Airgo one twelve
after the Lover Is Gone, Mary, Natural woman U Joe
to Cy.

Speaker 6 (37:56):
They do lately?

Speaker 5 (37:57):
Was that? No?

Speaker 3 (37:58):
No?

Speaker 5 (37:58):
That was.

Speaker 6 (38:00):
What did Josy do?

Speaker 5 (38:01):
They on the Cold Joint because they put y'all you
put out an album, I'll put out the well I did?
I did? I did? Uh? Uh? What's the brother? Josy
the lead Casey I later produced if you think Jason's lyric.
But so I'm doing, man, I'm saying all this answer

(38:23):
to your question, brother, I was doing putting in twenty
hours a day, man, because first of all, I had
to figure out what's gonna be my sound. All the
equipment had changed. I'd been off the scene for a
few years, so I had called all these cats. I'm
going through thousands of sounds to find out what what'll
be my go to sounds? How I'm gonna put these beats,

(38:45):
you know, Because I had to figure all that on
on on, on the fly and then produced. I worked
it out finally by the third season, I wrote, scored
the whole show in two days, did the whole Natalie
in a day and a half. But it's like third day.

Speaker 4 (39:03):
Well, in a day and a half, you had all
those artists line up one by one, knocked them out.

Speaker 5 (39:09):
No no, no, no per episode, no no, per episode.
It was an assistant inam lie on the floor and
I will talk about, well, who can we get next?
So we reach out and uh, once we get the artists,
I would say, okay, this is the song we do
you know? Uh? And I go in recut those songs,

(39:30):
those songs, those aren't records, those are all you know, remakes,
you know, And you got.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
Websites dedicated to the top twenty Natalie perform Ntie.

Speaker 4 (39:41):
Natalie's was till Jordan, what you want to do for love?

Speaker 5 (39:44):
Oh? I forgot all this love well and and and
jael Vert I remember that one.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (39:56):
I've been so many places.

Speaker 4 (39:57):
Song for you, A song for you? So can I
assume that. That's when made the the the relationship with
Mary for I'm Going down. Uh look, man, did you
do the New York undercover stuff first? Or did you?
Because I know you produced when we first met, you produced.

Speaker 5 (40:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Here's the interesting thing. A lot
of the young artists after we worked together because they
never worked with the old head you know, that's Traight
and Escape s w V the earlier take. They never
a lot of them never really worked with a vocal producer,
you know. And I found that out, and so they

(40:38):
would ask me. They come and to New York on
the cover and say, yo, man, could you cut on
my album?

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Because Erica did stay on here? And I was like,
was that before after she put that on her album?

Speaker 5 (40:50):
Before she did New York? That's on New York? I
did redid that for di'angelo on the get.

Speaker 4 (40:57):
Off the Yeah you did change?

Speaker 5 (41:00):
Yeah, And that's getting crazy.

Speaker 4 (41:04):
And how so, how do you like doing vocals? I
hate doing vocals.

Speaker 5 (41:10):
I love it. That's that's that's my ultimate That's the tip.

Speaker 4 (41:13):
I will be calling you from now on the tip of.

Speaker 5 (41:15):
The iceberg is vocals. I always say this, every hit
is a nursery rhyme. But you got to learn how
to make it your nursery rhyme. There's no hit that
you can't home. There's no hit record that you heard
that you can't hum the melody even if you don't
know the words. It's nursery rhymes.

Speaker 4 (41:35):
Already known next year's retrospective episode that it's gonna be
Bill's favorite episode literally taking notes.

Speaker 5 (41:44):
But think about that, that that concept. There's no hit
that you ever heard that you love that you couldn't Yeah,
what was your What was it like producing k C vocals?
Because that was when he was like, okay, bothly kse
that comes. The first night we worked, said sometimes you

(42:07):
don't nail it. But what I always did if we
don't nail something on the first night, I make a
copy of what you did and then give you right
behind that a version with no vocal so you could
work out. So casey, the first night we didn't quite
get it, I'm like cool, ma ain't no problem. Came

(42:27):
back about three nights later and we nailed it. The
reason why I'm saying that was so special, I'll never forget.
He asked me, said, man, I'm too making I call
my parents. He called his parents and put the phone
up to the speakers. He said, Man, I'm doing Bobby
Womax song and he nailed it, man, And I was
just so proud of you know, he was a hard worker, Mary,

(42:50):
hard worker. The Angelo is off the hook.

Speaker 7 (42:55):
Notice he didn't say hard work, no no, no, no
no no no.

Speaker 4 (43:01):
I meant.

Speaker 5 (43:07):
And I know that YouTube. I was supposed to work
on the album that you did.

Speaker 4 (43:15):
We're still here.

Speaker 5 (43:16):
That's my that's my man, that's my man. We're still
and I'll never forget to see. I was doing, uh
working with D'Angelo and Spike Lee called me. I mean
he called me to do the thing with Dangelo for
the get was to get on the bus. So we're
in the studio and Spike calls me, said, man tunes,
I'm gonna send some Obis. He said, I just got

(43:37):
Curtis's song grant a New World Order. We were in
the studio, man, he rushes it over. Now. I told you, man,
my main influence, my first influence was Courtis. So I
put the the the C d N and I hear
this man and I said, stop it. I said, turn

(43:57):
all the lights off. Mm hmmm. Sat out there to listen. Man.
It wasn't a dry eye, and I realized this cat recorded.

Speaker 4 (44:04):
It on his back.

Speaker 6 (44:05):
He was paralyzed, And.

Speaker 5 (44:07):
I said, this cat got more soul. The reason why
I'm saying this fast forward during New York under Cover,
I called Curtis for an episode to do that in
New World Order. I didn't redo it that we actually
used the CD. We alone in the room, in the
dressing room before that before he takes a ship, and
I tell him I'm telling him getting a chance to

(44:27):
tell Curtis. I mean, we knew each other over the
years before that, but I had an opportunity to tell him,
you what my main inspiration man to want to write.
And for some reason there was a moment was nobody
in the room but me and him. I don't even
know how that happened. And I said, and I didn't
really even have a right to ask him me. I said, Curtis,

(44:48):
you paralyzed. I said, what do you miss most? And
what right do I have that? I mean, you know,
you think my guy says sax Or, I can't walk,
you know, he told me man and I broke down
in tears. He he said, man tooms, I can't play
my guitar damn oh I know. Now fast forward again,

(45:09):
about a year after he dies, I'm sitting at the crib.
I get a call, uh from uh Warner Brothers said,
somebody's here wants to talk to you. I don't know
who it was. Put him on. It was Curtis's publicist
who was there that night. She said, I too made.
We've been trying to find you for over a year.

(45:31):
Curtis when he died, told me to make sure that
we thanked two people, you and Eric Clapton. I don't.
I'm like, I don't want, I don't know what what
to thank me? What are you talking about? He said?
The last two weeks well, Curtis was making transition to death.
He had us play his performance in New York on
the cover over that helped him make his transition. And

(45:54):
now I dropped the phone because I'm the man that
inspired me.

Speaker 6 (45:58):
You inspired him, help him.

Speaker 5 (46:00):
I can't even say I helped him. But she said
two people we wanted to think. I mean, can you
imagine that cycle yes, getting yes, getting heavy in here,
I say this and I didn't touch on this. Got
Remember who I've lost? I lost Teddy, I lost Phyllis,

(46:21):
I lost Donny Hathaway. I work with these people.

Speaker 3 (46:24):
Man, measure your soul, measure like aunt may name side

(46:58):
should be.

Speaker 8 (47:00):
And I'm so happy you not together.

Speaker 5 (47:27):
No such thing as bad for I'll tell you you love.

Speaker 4 (47:45):
What's up?

Speaker 5 (47:47):
So, like I tell you question, vocals is my thing.

Speaker 4 (47:51):
That's that's why I have power to you.

Speaker 6 (47:53):
Brother.

Speaker 4 (47:54):
I can barely get through this episode.

Speaker 5 (47:56):
Look, that's why. Look vocals, that's why we're talking. Man,
that's that's extra. So you know how you know that line.
There's no denying. Okay, now Phyllis's used to Okay, that's
the take. I ain't. I'm like, no, man, it's good,
but there's something we can get better. I think we

(48:17):
took that note maybe about four or five times. I did.
It's just something because I heard I was gonna put
an extra reverb on it and let it just melt.
And then when you listen to that mix, it just
goes so after she finished it. Motherfucker's that it. That's

(48:39):
a that's a classic story. A cat named David Nathan
was there that night. He was right and just doing
an article on Phyllis for Blues and Souls I think
it was, and he talks about that moment, you know,
and yeah, man, but that was phyllis. I loved it.
I loved it. Now I'm gonna give you another story
if you don't mind, y'all got your j'n.

Speaker 6 (48:57):
I got to make old man Roland hey Man keep going.

Speaker 5 (49:00):
Back together again.

Speaker 4 (49:03):
I don't know if we walked out here and we've
been in the group chat Piers.

Speaker 5 (49:10):
We're working on that, Donny. Most people know, you know,
had some mental challenges. You're emotional, and that night he
was having he was struggling, you know, and he broke
down and ran out the studio to the bathroom. So

(49:32):
I go out of the control room and I opened
the bathroom door. He's in the corner crying, I mean, sobbing.
So I was like, oh my god. So I got
I went down on the floor and kind of crawled
up next to him. I said, brother, what's what's happening?
He said to him, they trying to kill me. I said, who,

(49:53):
He said, They're trying to kill me. They got my
brain hooked up to a machine. Now I'm teared up.
So I stayed in there with him for a few minutes.
So I said, I'm gonna let him have his I said, look, Donnie,
tell you what you when you feel like you're ready
to take it, hit it, you know, just come on.
So he came out. He tried it, and I knew

(50:14):
he couldn't. I stopped the session. That was a Saturday night.
I said, man, we just come back Monday, man, he said, tunes,
I'll kill this. About five thirty that morning, phone rings,
I pick up. Somebody's crying. I said, well, who's this?
She said, this is Roberta. She said to him too,

(50:35):
Donnie's dead. Wow, he jumped that night.

Speaker 6 (50:40):
Shit.

Speaker 5 (50:41):
So here's why I always emphasize that. Of everything I've
been so fortunate to be involved with Back Together Again,
it's the deepest piece. The last two songs that Donnie
did Closer, I mean that were popular and Back Together Again.

(51:01):
I had a part and this great artist, the last
two songs he did I was involved with. What was
so the vocal? What was the okay, just the trick.
I'm telling you this, So Back Together Again wasn't finished.
If you listen to this mix after I leave, Donnie

(51:24):
only did the first uh no, the first yeah, the
first release. We can uh make it better, try to
make it.

Speaker 4 (51:31):
It got to be Wait, is it people.

Speaker 5 (51:35):
No, no, no, mess up, Yo, you're right here. Okay, listen.
So back in the day, man, I mean, y'all have
the advantage of technology. Wasn't no physically cut the tape
with with with the razor blade. So what I did
was make a copy of the first edited in the

(51:58):
second time. That's the same performance. And if I didn't

(52:24):
tell you that, you would have never known the other
trick because he had died, we couldn't do it a tag.
So when they come back, the only thing that's emphasized
in the background the burden don't come back Donny, because
I knew it would be stupid. So the whole tag,

(52:48):
it is just the instrumental in the background being being manipulated.

Speaker 4 (52:52):
I would have.

Speaker 5 (52:52):
Never ever thought about that.

Speaker 4 (52:55):
Yo, how do we almost get this episode?

Speaker 5 (52:57):
And not a question? I just forgot that was did
you do heavens? No?

Speaker 3 (53:03):
No?

Speaker 5 (53:04):
No, okay, okay, no, that that was wait before me.
So just like I said, question, listen to that. And
if I didn't tell you that, it just sounded like
it was done.

Speaker 4 (53:15):
Like that, I mean without you being over analytical since
since you kind of opened it. Because I know nothing
about Donnie Hathaway as a person and that sort of thing.
And I don't exactly as the greatest ever.

Speaker 5 (53:33):
And he hasn't been reduced to a footnote. There's not
even a good documentary. Only he was every singer's favorite singer.

Speaker 4 (53:39):
Yeah, but yeah, I mean was he Was he a
normal cat with a extraordinary voice? Was he an a
centric cat?

Speaker 5 (53:48):
Well? Remember I meet him on the Closer. He had
already had a couple of nervous breakdowns.

Speaker 4 (53:55):
I never knew none of that stuff.

Speaker 5 (53:57):
Yes, so here was the deep part. And then this
is literally the first time I meet him. I'm at
Roberta's apartment to come to Tombes. Come over and want
you to meet Donnie. And we're talking. This is a
literal thing. We're talking. He said tunes. Look at that gorilla,
And I'm like, wow, how we gonna do a record?

Speaker 6 (54:19):
Okay?

Speaker 5 (54:19):
I sit down and played the song. He said, move over.
I played it once he sat down, played the exact
voicings of every quart. Then I realized he's a genius.
He had photo that that thing. And then later I
found out his roommate in at at Howard Leewill Hudson

(54:42):
said he ran out and bought sketches in Spain when
it came out, and then you had it, you know,
we had the photograph. He played it down, he listened
to it in one night. The next day he was
playing all the cuts from sketches in Spain, so that's
what he had. The communications was off when he said
at the at the keyboard man or stepped in front

(55:02):
of the mic. You heard it. You heard it. So
I didn't know him other than that way.

Speaker 2 (55:09):
That's so interesting that both of them were mental illness.
I was just saying Phyllis too. It's just interesting in
two different kinds.

Speaker 5 (55:16):
Of Kenny called me when you know, when t when Phyllis,
you know, took her life, and he told me she
was obsessed with she was dated. She's all these young
you know, she didn't think that the singers looked up
to her, the m the Mary's and them.

Speaker 4 (55:35):
That's see it.

Speaker 7 (55:36):
It's funny you say that, cause I was just coming around,
like learning who she was. Around the time that she passed.
I think, don't wanna change the world, had just been
a hit or whatever. So I was just getting into
Phyllis and then like you know a few months later,
I'm here, I'm gonna listen to the radio and they
come over and saying, you know, singing philis Heimon is
Yea is committed.

Speaker 5 (55:52):
You know, so we do it wasn't you know? I
loved me? If you noticed there was never a second
na to Maine Lucas production with Phyllis. Why was that?

Speaker 4 (56:02):
Clive?

Speaker 5 (56:03):
No, Clive was begging me, no, this is what happened.
Clive was like, I took what I took the record
to him and planning it for him. He spins around,
and look, I respect Clive cause he's serious about the music.
So he spins around and he's got back to us.

(56:25):
You know. I give him the the the the dat
to play listen to the whole album every song. He
spins back around. He said, well, I'm too may me
and registered he's he said, I'm too many personally, I'm
a little disappointed. Alright, So so what I went through
the mars, I don't care. I told him right there.

(56:47):
I said, man, that's fine, I don't care. I said,
I'll tell you what. This would be the biggest record
she's ever had. The record comes out, it is out
for two weeks. I'm let I'm at the crib. I
get a call from Phyllis's manager. I forgot the brother's name.
He's passed, but I knew him. He was a friend
of Indugal's. He's the original cat that called me about Hey, man,
maybe we can do he said. There was an interview

(57:09):
that came out. He said, I'm calling you man because
we cool. I don't want nobody else to tell you.
I forgot the name of the magazine. He said, go
get it. Phillis did an interview, man, and he said,
and she's dogging you, I was saying, And I was like,
so you know me. I jumped in the car, man,
I shoot, go get it. I had to come over
to New York. I didn't I get back to the crib.

(57:32):
It was one of them things. The cat doing the
interview was into I hate this. You know, he's doing
this R and B. I expected more jazz, and Phillis
kind of played into it. So yeah, yeah, yeah, I did.
You know, but I too, May has his way, you know.
I wanted to use my musicians and my background singers,
but he has this system. Yeah, most people do, you know?

(57:55):
And I read it, man, And I never was angry
with Phillis. But what I knew was I couldn't do
another record because I couldn't write for you. How can
I write for you? And I know your original vibe is.

Speaker 6 (58:09):
You don't believe it. Yeah, you don't trust me.

Speaker 5 (58:11):
Fortunately about four weeks later. Okay, but what is the
point I'm making? See, producers, you can always produce somebody else.
An artist has to live on the successful failure of
that record. That's how they work, that's how they get bookings.
And I just knew I couldn't put my heart in it.

(58:32):
So rather than do a BS record and look, it
was some big paper on the table, it wasn't.

Speaker 4 (58:38):
It's just it so, I mean, not in retrospect, even
after the fact that the records are proven hit. You know,
you guys never spoke after that, like, hey, no, Phyllis
called me. We got some magic, so should we?

Speaker 5 (58:54):
But okay, what's the magic? We did it? The magic
was captured, but I know you didn't.

Speaker 4 (59:00):
Maybe she was just scared. See, well, that's that's what
I'm want to ask. You were geniuses, and I know
again we rarely put women in the genius category or whatever.
We over use the word. But you know, artists are
so troubled and you you, I mean you went through
a slew of them, so I'm certain that to get
the magic performance you got to observe them and their

(59:24):
hanger onto the break room, whatever drug activity.

Speaker 5 (59:28):
First of all, on vocals, my rule was, there's nobody
in this room. Nobody, because I tell you the vocal.
When you're doing vocals, that's when the microscope and if
if you singing and you're looking through that glass, you're performing.
If people in there, you can't help it. I don't
want to performance, I want to delivery. So nobody's ever

(59:52):
allowed to be in there, so you don't have that
distraction on vocals, makes sense, That's so that's that's the
first time i' heard the scribe that way, because I've
heard so many other producers say that they're trying to
capture a performance. But I'm not trying to capture, man,
I'm trying to deliver delivery, you know. C O D.

Speaker 4 (01:00:14):
There you go? Did we miss anything?

Speaker 5 (01:00:22):
Now?

Speaker 4 (01:00:22):
Now I'm afraid to wrap it up because okay, so
was it true that Wrigley tried to come after you?

Speaker 5 (01:00:29):
Yeah, they want to sue me. Wait what juicy fruit?

Speaker 4 (01:00:33):
So wait, how did time out? How did you know
about this from your.

Speaker 5 (01:00:43):
In Japan. I think it's the first time I mentioned
it public because I said, I don't there's not a
lot of take don't tape the stuff of me. So
I get a call, big big law firm represented Wriggleyes.
So I gotta go up.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Man.

Speaker 5 (01:01:00):
I walk in this room. Man the table as long
as this block, I mean, lawyers on both sides. So
they going through. They got the album cover, they're going
through all this. So they start questioning me, and you
showed up with no no lawyer. I didn't need nothing
cause I knew WHEREY was gonna go and I had
check made it. I knew where I was going. Uh so,

(01:01:21):
because I knew ultimately it was gonna get to mister
to me, what do you mean when you say you
can lick me everywhere? I said, well, obviously it's not
about gum. I said, it's about all sex. I ain't

(01:01:42):
never seen some of red faces in my life. That
was the end of the interview for me. It was like, okay, okay,
please leave. You know, but I understood where they was
going and I knew I just knew what they was
gonna say. But it ain't know, you know, and that
I hate to even keep talking about that line, but
y'all have no idea d how crazy it was. We
couldn't even cut the video. They made me yes, And

(01:02:06):
I hated that because Epic was just so scared of that.
And at that time, one of the things I was
proud of we as far as single sales, we were
doing what Michael was doing with that record, and that
record really never crossed over to pop and my my
thing is man. And remember that was also the beginning

(01:02:28):
of black videos where you had to People will tell
you had to take them some of the blackout and
I never did that. And when we did, you mean,
you mean he turn that off of here?

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
Right?

Speaker 5 (01:02:41):
We go? Okay, I go through the struggles of hiring
a black production team to do you mean he we
walk out on the set the first day we flew
out to California to do it. In the audience, it's
eighty five percent white people couples and about fifteen percent
black couples. I said, look, man, I got to be

(01:03:01):
honest to my audience. I said, you don't see Bruce
Springsteen singing, you know, brother, you know eighty five percent?
I said, be honest to your audience. And so I said, man,
we gotta shoot do it tomorrow. The cat said no, Man,
well you know, I said, well, I'll pay for it.
We ain't do it. I'm not doing this to the
people that loved our music. So we never did that.

(01:03:21):
I watched a lot of groups to try to get
on MTV, and only other voice that was out there
with that was Rick James. MTV wouldn't play any black
videos until you know the famous thing when the Epics
Sony said they pull all their videos if they didn't
play Billy Jean. That's how crazy it was. But I
saw a lot of cats. The music got real square.

Speaker 4 (01:03:43):
You tell the truth. Because back when, like I used
to be really addicted to Lee Bailey's radio score letscope, Yeah,
and uh, I remember there really being a man just
like an instant backlash of like when Cameo really started
to get their.

Speaker 6 (01:04:02):
Pop shit on word up and.

Speaker 4 (01:04:04):
Especially with the Candy video, Like people were calling Lee
Bailey complaining like, how come no brothers, how come little
sisters in these videos?

Speaker 5 (01:04:12):
And oh no, that was a no no, that was
a no no. Now. Look and I'll tell you that now,
Juicy Fruit, there was barely any black videos. The only
place I saw black videos was what's the Brother Ralph? Yeah,
and you had to have that was Channel Video thirty one.
But when we did Juicy Flu, we was on tour.

(01:04:33):
We flew in cut that like a d a day
and I wasn't into the complexion. That didn't matter, and
it's it's just like non racial looking a woman. And
I said, well, okay, what we're doing this video? Boom?
Then I noticed that was really what started being And
my daughter came to me, Benian, my youngest daughter, she

(01:04:56):
was about five or six. One day she said, Baba,
you know that's father. And she said, I guess I
can't be in no videos because she's chocolate. And she
was referring to a prince. She said, everything I see, well, no, no,
I'm not saying no, you ain't right, but I mean

(01:05:17):
I'm saying that became the thing for this bullshit they
call crossover. I said, this is bullshit crossover and can't
get black. That's what's happening here. It ain't getting back.
You can't get black because why do blacks have to
always cross over? I mean, I said, you don't ask
the Rolling Stones man, you know, they got to do funk.

(01:05:39):
Although they were funky, but all that onus was on
us and I spoke out on it and it was like,
oh man, this cat is out. No, it wasn't, Dad.
This is the truth. This is the truth, the truth.
And so you mean he obviously there's a brown skinned
woman in the lead. And I did that on purpose

(01:06:00):
and it was awful because a lot of young sisters
got messed up. And I helped Nelson did a book
called The Deaths of Rhythm and Blues, and uh, I
was you know, we were talking a lot during that time.
Videos helped kill arm b man, not kill it, you know, literally,
but it was like the visual became on in the audience.

(01:06:24):
You know, I said, man, so, so what slid Stone
and how he looked al green, how he looked No,
it's how they made us feel. Then it became your
brand and I got a thing with that. It's funny
you mentioned that because the thing that I remember the
most as a kid, because usually fruit came out. I
think I was like eighty four eighty, so I was four,

(01:06:44):
So I remember that record and the thing I can
remember was the braids and like the on the braids
and how the thing I was I was looking at
I was like, man, they ain't got Jerry Curls was
like yo, I was like, I'm fucking with this already.
It was so funny man, because they played us, they
played us in the movie Biggie movie. Oh it was

(01:07:10):
Rick James looking. I said, I bit that, but that
was like a rough because Duatha called me when she saw.

Speaker 4 (01:07:20):
So being as being as though I guess some almost
twenty plus, almost twenty five years later, Uh, the aftermath
of Juicy and what it's meant to the hip hop generation.
Whereas now you know, people hear Biggie's voice yeah, as

(01:07:42):
the default version before they even think of the original.

Speaker 5 (01:07:45):
Didn't know most of them didn't even know the original.

Speaker 4 (01:07:47):
Right, So with Uh, as many times as that song
has been interpolated and sampled, is it at least the
the I know, the myth of the I'm always hearing
these guys on doing interviews or whatever, like Steely Dan

(01:08:08):
might make a joke about like that sort of thing.
Is it is? And I'm not exact figure whatever, but
is the myth true of like, hey, just one great
hit that's used by the Juicy has been the least
using ninety maybe a hundred plus Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:08:29):
My favorite version was Akisha Coles missing Yeah, let it go, yo, man,
I don't know the playing, but I should will on you.

Speaker 8 (01:08:37):
I don't want you men? How n the stand by
you stay home mad? I can't explain many times I trush,
how many times I crashed thinking about mine wings, couldn't

(01:09:03):
get it down.

Speaker 9 (01:09:06):
Someone in love compound don't want love you the right
way anyways?

Speaker 4 (01:09:25):
So do you have to for each time that song's
do you have to determine the percentage that you wanted
that song?

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
Like?

Speaker 4 (01:09:35):
Whereas okay, if.

Speaker 5 (01:09:36):
Depended you know what depended on how much of it
they use? The thing that was interesting about Juicy, Like
I said when I wrote it, the beat wasn't the
main thing, but if you think about it, it's probably
the most identifiable beat in R and B.

Speaker 6 (01:09:55):
My favorite use of it was one guy.

Speaker 5 (01:09:59):
Yeah God, that was That was That was the That
was the first version, I mean the first time.

Speaker 4 (01:10:05):
That it was sample was twice right, because he used
it twice on that you see. Matter of fact, he
was a three times twice? Isn't this dj? Oh my god?
He used to three times on the album.

Speaker 5 (01:10:15):
This DJ was a different This DJ was twice on
that first. Oh yeah he did, okay, yeah, okay, welcome
for the uh like the West Coast really taking it
the West Coast really, I always felt the West Coast
hip hop was funk. Yeah, you're more so than the East.

Speaker 4 (01:10:38):
He just more jazz, yeah yeah, and more fun.

Speaker 5 (01:10:40):
And so they vibed right away. And I always think,
young people, this is how I found out that I
think we had something with Juicy. I'm I'm sitting at
the create a cat named Scott Folks who helped them
the remix twelve inches and back then twelve inch meant
you're still using the original, you ain't bringing the other
or redoing it, and yeah, you just is extended. And

(01:11:04):
he said, Man, Tunes, I want you to come with
me to this club up in the Bronx. It was
with grand Master Spunk, the first hip hop club, the Roxy.
So he said, man, can you come this weekend? I
said yeah, Man, he said, I'm gonna come and pick
you up. I said, but you want to be ready
around ten He said no.

Speaker 4 (01:11:22):
Round three.

Speaker 5 (01:11:25):
He said, man, I'm gonna take you. Man. He said, man,
they spend Juicy around four thirty. I want you to
see the hip hop generation's response to it. I never
thought that you could dance the juicy or just and
the floor just And I said, it's just that you
write something.

Speaker 4 (01:11:45):
He was making a ballot.

Speaker 5 (01:11:46):
No, I thought I was making this.

Speaker 4 (01:11:49):
It's kind of a chill out.

Speaker 5 (01:11:51):
Yeah it's a barberie you see. Yeah, this late, But
I'm into these chords.

Speaker 4 (01:12:00):
Right in your head? Is Juicy a ballot with some
behind it?

Speaker 5 (01:12:05):
No, it's it's my, it's it's it's my. It's my
speed zone, mid temple fi, mid tempo funk.

Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
But as you're creating it, are you you're just thinking like, Okay,
there's some filler on the album.

Speaker 5 (01:12:18):
Or no, Like we had finished the album. The album
was done. I had cut this, all the songs. I said.
What happened was that night everybody went back home. I
called everybody back up. After I laid that. Somebody came
back about one o'clock in the morning. We cut that
cut it that night.

Speaker 4 (01:12:37):
Literally.

Speaker 5 (01:12:38):
One thing, one rule I have when I'm writing, whatever
hook that comes to my head, that's always the first hook.
That's the hook. And I'm listening back as we laid it,
I said, Juicy, sometimes what I like to do now
that record, Twatha was on tour. Was still with U

(01:12:59):
Roxy Music.

Speaker 6 (01:13:00):
Oh wow.

Speaker 5 (01:13:01):
She was in Europe, damn. So we had a couple
of days off some fluor back from uh London. So
we cut the vocals that night. I'm writing a verse
as she's performing, like the first verse. So she's performing
it and I'm writing the second verse. I said, I
wanted to put some pressure on myself. I wrote the
lyrics literally that night while she's singing, h we you know,

(01:13:26):
we wrapped it up. She flew back, you know, and
you know is that you uh? Is that your voice?
I needed?

Speaker 4 (01:13:34):
Girl?

Speaker 5 (01:13:40):
We had so much. If you notice, I would do
these little outtakes like when you me and he it's
the monogamy mix.

Speaker 4 (01:13:49):
Uh, just to reiterate, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:13:52):
So we just let that do do do bitter, but
do do do? I said, look, man, let's just go
in and just freestyle like we're talking.

Speaker 8 (01:14:03):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:14:05):
Well uh.

Speaker 5 (01:14:08):
Oh man, Look, I just want to thank this is
such I want to thank y'all so much. This has
been This is this is.

Speaker 4 (01:14:14):
Layer layers upon layers upon layers of wisdom that you've
given us.

Speaker 5 (01:14:17):
And well that was given to me. I ain't got nothing, man,
You're challenged, but I'm challenging. Man, look all the cats
that was blessed to be around.

Speaker 4 (01:14:26):
Man Fronte, what did you learn today?

Speaker 2 (01:14:29):
Bro?

Speaker 5 (01:14:29):
Oh my god, he's like a walking sage. It's so
much like so much game. Like I hope people like
really listen to this interview. And it's not even it's
I mean, you're talking music, but it applies just to
life life, you know what I mean. Like, it's not even,
it just applies to so many things. I'm just listening to. Yeah, Man,

(01:14:50):
just thank you, just thank you for the music.

Speaker 4 (01:14:52):
I grew up on your music.

Speaker 6 (01:14:53):
I've been a lifetime longtime fans.

Speaker 5 (01:14:55):
You know, and thank you. And like I said, man,
it just needs to be more of this exchange of
generational information.

Speaker 4 (01:15:01):
Man on pay Bill, what did you learn this episode?
I would say for an atheist, that was very religious
experience I learned. Are you ready?

Speaker 5 (01:15:11):
Yeah? Stop playing what you know, play what you don't know?

Speaker 4 (01:15:14):
Simplexity, Yeah, Webster's lookout, no leaning right now. We got
half a glass of music, which I love. And every
height is a nursery rhyme, which is my fucking life. Literally,
Uh I remember your name?

Speaker 10 (01:15:32):
Yeah, I reiterate with both of both of them. Said,
and the successful transition from jazz to R and B
the natural transition at.

Speaker 6 (01:15:44):
That exact moment, uh, you know.

Speaker 10 (01:15:47):
Unforced because you see a lot of bands and artists
try and keep up with the time so forth. But
it seemed like you were at the right age, maybe
at the right time, with the right amount of experience
to do it legitimately, to do R and B with
with real musicality and with with jazz in it.

Speaker 6 (01:16:06):
So yeah, that's pretty cool.

Speaker 4 (01:16:08):
Boss, Bill. W did you learn today?

Speaker 6 (01:16:09):
Man?

Speaker 7 (01:16:10):
I learned that so many great moments in music history
you just seem to happen is afterthoughts, Like you know,
Juicy Fruit, which is I was telling the mirror before
we started. It's one of the first songs I ever
remember hearing as a kid like that an Atomic Dogs.
So who knows, that's probably why I turned out the
way I did. But yeah, it just seems like it's
it's fascinating how like we hear all these stories about

(01:16:33):
these songs and these these these moments that we we've
kind of come to to fetishize, you know, in our lives,
and it just turns out they were just kind of
throwaway moments in most people's lives.

Speaker 4 (01:16:44):
You weren't really thinking about it. You just did it.

Speaker 7 (01:16:46):
And you went on with it and changed the change
the world. So I think that's something that's that's good
to always keep keep in mind, is you know, you
never really know what you're doing until after you've done it.

Speaker 5 (01:16:58):
And the people, the people de tming that. You know,
music don't come from you, it comes through you. You know.
I always equated, like you're watching the television, those images
are not coming from that box. It's the signals that
that box is picking up. So I never was challenged
with the ego thing. And plus, man, look who I

(01:17:19):
played with? How dare I even think? Look, I ain't
did nothing, man, compared to the cats that raised me. Man,
then that's how you got to look at it. I
see cats get a hit and trip, and if you know,
if you don't put the work in, the worst thing
in the world is a one hit wonder. Because you
get a hit, you don't know how to get back there,

(01:17:40):
because you ain't got no railroad tracks.

Speaker 2 (01:17:43):
Damn everybody to go back and listen to this episode
A creative process, intuition into technique and everything. Just coffee table.

Speaker 5 (01:18:03):
One last story, Yes, real quick one more story, one
more story, because I just thought about this while y'all
were talking, and I appreciate everything y'all said, Man, I
really do. How many songs could get lost? The close
I Get to You? Roberta invites me over to the
listening session. I'm an urticant is there. I'm sitting on
the couch, you know, and I'm just nobody, you know.

(01:18:27):
He listens to the whole album. It's the President of Atlantic,
true honest to God's story. He says, I love everything,
but the closes I Get to You. To this day,
I always thank Roberta because she rumbled. I heard it.
They went out in the hallway, it got loud. To
keep it on the album? He wanted to take it off.

(01:18:48):
He said, I'll never forget. When he came back, he said,
it's boring and repetious. Okay, So he comes back in
and says, all right, we'll keep it on, but it's
never be a single. Name me the first single off
that album close Close, No, No, it wasn't the first thing.

Speaker 4 (01:19:05):
Oh that's what it is.

Speaker 5 (01:19:08):
It was first single still deep.

Speaker 4 (01:19:10):
No, you can't you've heard this point technically, Tell me
what was the first song.

Speaker 5 (01:19:18):
I don't even remember. Yeah, I think in real life
you can look this up right now. I think it
was something called the twenty fourth of December. Oh yeah,
and I said that'll be over on the twenty fifth.

Speaker 4 (01:19:30):
That is the correct answer.

Speaker 5 (01:19:32):
So so the album back then, you know, the album
comes like six or seven weeks after the first single.
When the album dropped, the DJ's demanded close.

Speaker 2 (01:19:44):
Get this man a star on the Philly Walker fang.

Speaker 5 (01:19:46):
That's another thing.

Speaker 4 (01:19:47):
Yeah, that's oh yeah. I was going to say that
I learned that you're from Philadelphia and nobody knows. Most
Philadelphians don't know you're from Philadelphia.

Speaker 5 (01:19:57):
Do you think that is because you're quiet? I will absolutely.

Speaker 6 (01:20:03):
Make sure we got to talk about the connection with Jesus.

Speaker 4 (01:20:09):
I forgot. I was gonna say his career.

Speaker 6 (01:20:13):
Just put that right over there.

Speaker 5 (01:20:18):
That's good, that's good.

Speaker 4 (01:20:19):
I was gonna say, we we didn't talk about the
career in Radio two.

Speaker 5 (01:20:23):
Uh well real quick Bloud uh my sun Fire and
uh and dmu uh we're managing be Loud. I met
be Loud, it brought him to the house. They had
the demo for the first album, and I listened to
it and I and he and I talked. He came

(01:20:45):
in the basement and we were talking. I said, man,
why do you have harmonies on every line? I said,
if you do that, I can't. I don't know what
the hook is. I said, your hook has got to
be I said, you're not comfortable singing and you know

(01:21:05):
what you because he had harmonies on everything. So we
talked and then uh they had cut uh soul system,
so uh fire came to me and UH said, look bye, Byn.
You know there was no melody, the hook was already there.
Uh you must be bye. But that do do do

(01:21:29):
do do do do do do do do do do
do do do do do do So I put put
the melody on that and that was this great experience.
He's he's a monster. He's a monster, and.

Speaker 4 (01:21:46):
Shout out the quest loving the video.

Speaker 5 (01:21:47):
You know, yeah, how I cut How I cut vocals? Slyestone,
Slidestone showed me something. He lived with me for about
six months and.

Speaker 4 (01:21:58):
We wait, wait, wait, and like I'm going to four hour.
How does slid Stone wind up in your house? And
we've heard many on this show. How do you want?

Speaker 5 (01:22:15):
Slidestone? And I cut some tracks? I have what year.

Speaker 4 (01:22:19):
Like eighty five, eighty four.

Speaker 5 (01:22:22):
No, no No. After that we also co produced a
couple of tracks on a track on the Barcade called
just like a Teeto Tatter. Oh man, we gotta get
called me. One day I was at the crib and
a differend of mine, uh called me, uh Tyrone Brunson.

Speaker 4 (01:22:45):
He did the sur Yes is he from Philly?

Speaker 5 (01:22:48):
No, he's from DC. And Tyrone he was out somewhere
and he said, man, look, man, I'm here with Slidestone.
He wants to know can he talk? You know, would
you talk to him? So slide gets on the phone.
He said, man, I help. I heard that. You know
you you cool, you know, but you know you have
cats talk. He said, man, can I come out and

(01:23:11):
holler with you? Man? I said, cool? So I send
him a ticket, oh boy, and he came and uh.
He stayed with me for about six months and we
went in the studio. Absolute genius.

Speaker 2 (01:23:22):
Like on a roommate basis.

Speaker 5 (01:23:25):
I have a house. We were in a roomy he
you know, Oh, I'm sorry you had a large well no, no, no, no,
I don't have no mansion. That's that's that's for Hollywood.
But uh, but large enough. Yeah, yeah. And then uh,
but I got a chance to see Funk genius and
he came to me. He said, Man, cause I want
you to show me them cards. He called him blankets.
He said, you play blankets, Slide and Miles was gonna

(01:23:52):
do something when I'm this is when I'm with Miles
on the Uh. And then Slide told me when he
came to say, he said, I was gonna do it.
He said, but then I got scared. He said it
was Miles. He said, but now I'm getting a chance
to work with you. So he said, like it's kind
of you know, So I would show him these chords

(01:24:12):
and he showed me more about Funk than I could
have ever learned. So, like I said, I always say, man,
I'm just channeling. This cat worked twenty seven hours a day. Man.
He had a little cassio and he was making songs.
We cut about four demos and I haven't.

Speaker 2 (01:24:32):
When's the last time you spoke to him?

Speaker 5 (01:24:36):
I think Slide called me about eight years ago. I
have been talked to him. So were you and Twatha?
Were y'all ever married or romantic? Anything goes you know, Okay,
I'm not going in them houses.

Speaker 4 (01:24:54):
Man, Wait when you mentioned the Marquees. Yeah, when did
you work with them?

Speaker 5 (01:25:00):
That was eighty nine on the Animal album Just cat
here man scary, just like I got the Internet. I see,
I'm old. I'm not ancient, just like a Teeto title. Man,
it's a funky jam. Matter of fact, when Angelo Dangelo
called me.

Speaker 4 (01:25:19):
It's probably his song, yo, he I was like, wait,
did you even.

Speaker 5 (01:25:25):
Find he will? But it's fun if you have a
play it, man, just.

Speaker 4 (01:25:30):
He will know? All right? Is there any artists that
almost was and didn't happen that we I don't want
to close.

Speaker 5 (01:25:37):
I know we're going to close your book.

Speaker 4 (01:25:40):
Who did you work with that didn't happen, almost happened,
could have happened.

Speaker 5 (01:25:47):
No, that's a great question though, because when I stopped,
did you reject an artist?

Speaker 4 (01:25:54):
Did someone come to you and say, hey, I want
you to reduce it and you were like, I'm good. I
never sha.

Speaker 5 (01:26:03):
And I don't mean like in the new I'm talking,
Oh my god, lucor.

Speaker 4 (01:26:11):
What here we go?

Speaker 5 (01:26:13):
Oh my god? Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:26:15):
I try to put I try to put that out
of memory to that if I did that.

Speaker 5 (01:26:19):
I met Luther through to Watfa. Yeah, singing on he's
doing backgrounds on uh giving on up that album. I
think with that second album, searched the Rainbow that assault Yeah,
damn of course voice okay, yes. Lutheror also put the

(01:26:42):
backgrounds on do Do Yes, that's Lucor. Lucor also sang
on that it's searched in the Rainbow Seekers. There's a
song on there. Oh man, he put it, he put
so Luther comes to me, we gotta deal with Warner Brothers.

(01:27:04):
There was a singer named Marxi Dan. How do you
know that that's that's to do that with to Watha right,
but it's on that album. Yeah, yeah, but mark the day.
So Luther wants like, yo, man, what I want you
to I was like, no, because I'm doing this. But

(01:27:27):
you know, you don't you never think because if I
had done him, that doesn't mean it would have been
the same result it was. It happened like it's supposed
to happen. Yeah, but Luther, thank you keV.

Speaker 4 (01:27:42):
I mean what period like when he first got signed
first album. Damn, so it could have been you instead
of Marcus Miller Hawkins Villa.

Speaker 5 (01:27:50):
He's the first album is singing on She sang on
every Lucier song. I mean every album.

Speaker 4 (01:27:56):
Yes she is.

Speaker 6 (01:27:57):
She's out with Dave Matthews now right, she.

Speaker 4 (01:28:00):
Used to be.

Speaker 5 (01:28:00):
No, man, let's not even go there. Man, Look no,
I mean in jest. She has been with everybody.

Speaker 4 (01:28:07):
Dude, she's been. I've played with her three times and she.

Speaker 5 (01:28:10):
Told me to mention it didn't y'all stopped calling.

Speaker 4 (01:28:14):
I didn't realize until Lenny brought her back.

Speaker 5 (01:28:17):
She told me what she's like.

Speaker 4 (01:28:18):
You just noticed me.

Speaker 5 (01:28:19):
Now I've been here. She told me. When you first met,
when she told you her name, you said yo and
embrace it and told the cats she was like.

Speaker 2 (01:28:29):
Was she happy?

Speaker 5 (01:28:33):
Look? And you talk about her history? Lenny Kravitz, Stilly Dan,
Dave Matthews, David Bowie, Resa Franklin.

Speaker 4 (01:28:45):
Where's she originally from?

Speaker 5 (01:28:48):
That's how we met. She was in the in the
group Hot Tea and There Way to Howard. So I
was living you know, I was living in North So
I said his number. So when you finished, give me
a call. She graduates, comes back and we're starting to
get a couple of little things happening to me and Reggie,

(01:29:10):
and she comes back and we get to Stephanie album.
So she was vocal contractor on every every record.

Speaker 6 (01:29:19):
That's amazing.

Speaker 5 (01:29:20):
You need it, man's amazing. That's a history you really
need to know. Well, because background singing is an art
form that's getting lost to.

Speaker 4 (01:29:26):
Actually going to see her in four days. So I
will I shall be stalking. Okay, yeah, I'm so afraid
the end of this episode.

Speaker 5 (01:29:37):
That's a great word.

Speaker 4 (01:29:37):
We got to lose the stories we got.

Speaker 5 (01:29:39):
That was cav Thank you. I forgot Luke.

Speaker 4 (01:29:42):
Okay, all right, I learned everything all the things. Yeah,
you're from Philly, and I learned that Philly doesn't know
that you're from Philly.

Speaker 5 (01:29:54):
That's crazy, man.

Speaker 4 (01:29:54):
But we'll be at the Walk of Fame induction whatever
to get you.

Speaker 5 (01:29:59):
Yeah, yes, okay, well, well you know, if it happens cool,
if you don't, it will definitely have good.

Speaker 4 (01:30:04):
I'm good it will happen. We thank you for coming
and sharing everything. Thank you so much for me having
Sugar Steve and I'm paid Bill, and I'm Boss Bill,
new Boss Bill. I'm Boss Bill. I don't know anyway,
Like it's like in fant Ticcolo and Quest Love and
James and Too May. We will see you on the
next go round of whats Love Supreme?

Speaker 1 (01:30:35):
West Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic
episode was produced by the.

Speaker 4 (01:30:41):
Team at Pandora.

Speaker 1 (01:30:49):
For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.