Questlove Supreme: Deniece Williams

This week's episode of Questlove Supreme features the beautiful voice of Deniece Williams. After working with Stevie Wonder and Earth Wind & Fire, Niecy broke out into a Grammy-winning solo career that has spanned decades and multiple genres.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. It's a negative.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Three like a coffin the snees sniff is not a
cough snee and a sniff. In twenty twenty two, ladies
and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme.
I am Quest Loved your host and with me is
the Almighty Team Supreme. I feel like Don Cornelius every
time I have a superlotan thing.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
We all mighty, now, you guys the Mighty team.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yeah, yeah, you're not the mighty with the Almighty.

Speaker 4 (00:42):
I think somebody just got soul trained on the mind.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yeah, I'm actually watching this whole thing right now. Anyway,
sugar stea, what's up?

Speaker 5 (00:50):
Oh my gosh, so much.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
Feel like a new man now, don't you?

Speaker 5 (00:54):
I feel different? Yes, After I recorded an interview for
Question of Supreme.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
With wait, well let's not give it away yet. Let's
not give it away yet.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
But Steve, Steve took the lead and did miraculous Jimmy
jam numbers four hours with UH with an incredible guest.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
And you know we'll hear that episode, yes soon. He
got the nerd out.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
I mean I was there as a training Wills and
then Irish exited him, you know, left.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
Him on to sell them but it can't wait. Sounded awesome,
But you're finand Steve, everything's fine. I'm fine.

Speaker 5 (01:29):
I tell you said, you're the fund Steve, and that
is how I feel like the fauns. Yeah, I'm definitely cool.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
Now, great, great fan, take a little.

Speaker 6 (01:38):
How's it going man, I'm cooling, bro, I'm cooling, man,
cooland happy to have miss Denise he today.

Speaker 3 (01:43):
This is my childhood, close and personal for real.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
Absolutely and uh you know why you cannot contain ourselves.

Speaker 7 (01:51):
Listen, I am so you don't even understand. I am pumped,
beyond pumped and yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
So well.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Our guest today absolutely needs an introduction. She's a legendary
songbird with over seventeen albums, nineteen top forty R and
P singles, two number one pop singles, thirteen Grammy nominations
for wins, but basically just for the last five decades,

(02:20):
has blessed us with that angelic voice of hers. Be
it as a member of Wonderlove you know where we
first got to see her on a national level, or
just her illustrious solo career and told music with her
own solo records on Columbia Records, or her pop career

(02:41):
or her gospel career, and yes, in my opinion, one
of the voices of one of my all time favorite
TV themes.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yes, Yes, we'll get into that. This interview has been
a long time coming.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to Questloft Supreme, the one
and know me Denise Williams.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yes, how are you?

Speaker 8 (03:09):
How you doing wonderful? I'm wonderful and really excited to
be with you, guys. Finally we've been trying and so
here we are and it's lovely. I'm excited to be
here with you.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
I have one question.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
I am going to start at the beginning of your life,
but I got to get this out the way. So
when when my parents brought home this is Niecy your
your your first record on Columbia.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
Huh, all right? I was six.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
I you know, since then, I've had the record in
other iterations like a trac and cassette and CD, but
you know, the actual.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
Vinyl, like I only remember that from my childhood.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
Is the name Junior or June is Junior in your
name or June something? Because in your liner notes I
remember seeing that as your name, and I you know,
I have an uncle named Juni, and I was trying
to ask my mom like, wait, how's her name Junie?
And she's a lady, like what is what is your

(04:10):
your your full name?

Speaker 8 (04:12):
My full name is June Denise Williams. I was born
on June third, so my full and first name is June. Ah.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Okay, I get it now. I think throughout time, like
you know, like when you see something once and then
like decades go by.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
I think at the time I thought maybe your name
was Denise Williams Junior.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
Or something like that, But.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
Because you was young, I didn't Yeah, I didn't associate
the name June.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
When I saw that name, I thought of my uncle Juni.
I'm like, wait, how does she have his name? So
I get it related.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
You never know, I see, and you're a Gemini, yes,
I ah, oh, I forgive you anyway.

Speaker 8 (04:55):
Nobody's perfect, right, my mother I will wake up and
murder and my mother will look at me and say, okay,
who are you today? You June or you Denise? Which
one am I favor today?

Speaker 1 (05:07):
Oh? Really? You dealing with both of us? Okay?

Speaker 4 (05:12):
That who we have today? We have both today?

Speaker 3 (05:16):
Okay, let's get it.

Speaker 8 (05:18):
I keep myself entertained too.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
I get it, I get it.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
I know that you were born in Gary and Deanna,
so I usually start with where were you born?

Speaker 1 (05:29):
But I want to start with a different question.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Uh, could you please tell me what your very first
musical memory was.

Speaker 8 (05:37):
My very first musical memory is. I was three years
old and I was sitting on the back porch at
my grandparents' house and I said, we will now have
a selection from Denise, and I started singing this song
called There's a Man Waiting way beyond the clouds. And

(05:58):
my dad's sister, my aunt, hurt me that. She came
out and she said, if I asked you to sing
that song in church on Sunday, would you do it?
And I said okay, And so I sang the song
and next thing I know, I was in the children's
choir at my church. That's my very first musical memory.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
And what was it about that song that attracted you
to it?

Speaker 8 (06:24):
I just loved it. I love the melody. I love
the message of the song about someone in heaven waiting
for me, and the beautiful melody and the fact that
I just liked the sound of it. When I was
singing the sound of my voice on it.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
Of course, you were born in the Midwest. You know,
there's another famous nearby family. It's kind of synonymous with
that series, that city of Gary, Indiana. But could you
give me your version, like when I hear of Gary, Indiana?
Besides the song Gary Indiana. You know, I only know

(07:08):
of the Jackson's version of Gary, Indiana, which is basically
the tale of a father using hook or crook to
get his kids out of that city.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
But what are your memories of Gary, Indiana?

Speaker 8 (07:22):
I love growing up in Gary. We had in my neighborhood.
You know, one thing I realized is that I didn't
know that we were poor. You know, I thought we
had everything. As long as we had tuna fish, I
was fine.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
I love you.

Speaker 8 (07:37):
Right now, I'm saying. So, you know, I had an
upbringing in the church. I spent a lot of time
on the weekends with my grandparents, and my grandmother was
the mother of the church fake temple church you got
in christ Over in East Chicago. So I was there
and basically, you know, just grew up, went to school,

(08:00):
very Christian youngster, you know, didn't know a lot about
what was going on. I think I was very innocent.
I never remember. One time one of my neighbors said,
you know, the way you got here is your mom
and dad. They did the duty and I and I
fought with her. I said they did not, And so
you know, I was, you know, very innocent. Raised up

(08:23):
with my brother, two brothers and a sister, and I
really liked Gary in those days. You know, school was fun.
I had a lot of fun friends, and I didn't
know much about, you know, the political system of what
was happening. But we did have the first black mayor,
which was Richard Hatcher, and so you know, a lot

(08:45):
of the history of Gary and the black communities was
really really great.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
You know.

Speaker 8 (08:50):
Later on, of course, there was the drug scene in that.
But I grew up. I didn't start singing until I
was a teenager, and so myth teacher owned a record
store and I asked him for a job. I got
a job, so I was singing. You know a lot
of stuff in there. I had seen Michael and the
Jackson Five perform at the Masonic Temple one time, and

(09:13):
I think he was about five years old or something,
and their cousin, the drummer in the group n Johnny
had a crush on me. I thought it was a
crush on my sister, and maybe it was. And so
he used to come over to the house and we
would see them. I remember, you know, some girls showed

(09:35):
up at my house and they said, we wanted to
sing in the Talent Show, but one of our singers
is sick, and we heard that you can sing. And
one of the girls of us, I said, can you sing?
I said, well, if you came to church, you know. Okay,
you know I sang in the Talent Show. But I said, well,
the Jackson five is going to win the Talent Show.
But we sang, and actually we sang It's going to

(09:57):
take a miracle, and really that was the song we
sang in the Talent Show. So, you know, I loved
growing up in Indiana. It was a great time to
be raised. There was great the discipline and the growing
up in the church, and you know the way the
elder black people were at that time and how proud

(10:18):
they were as you know, doing their work and that
kind of stuff. Of course, later on as a teenager,
I did, you know, join the NAACP and I did
some marchie for Jim Crow, you know, the John Birch
Society and then folk so that was also part of
my upbringing. But it was really wonderful to grew up
in the Midwest where you had rules and regulations. You

(10:41):
really knew who you were and you know, and what
was going on. So it was wonderful. I'm grateful for
my upbringing in the Midwest and in Gary, Indiana.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
Did you have any sort of interaction with other notable
Gary people like I know that.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
Kim Misells from Gary as well, Kimzillia.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
No, okay, or like Fred Williamson or Ernest Ernest Lee
Thomas who played rides from What's Happening.

Speaker 8 (11:15):
That's a funny story because my grandfather was a pastor.
He had, you know, his membership. There's maybe about twenty
twenty five of us up in my grandfather's church and
he was a pastor, he was a musical director, he
was the choir leader, and so the choir existed about
five of us and Ernie Lee Ernie Thomas was one

(11:36):
of the members of my grandfather's church. We grew up together.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
Wow, okay, Wow, that's up.

Speaker 9 (11:43):
I've known him since I was about ten, probably in
the early arts I comment I did a show at
the House of Blues and you know, Ernest Lee Thomas
was in the Foundation room like all excited, wanted to
come back stage, and you know, I see him walking
down the hallway and I'm all excited and.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
He's like asking me permission to, like, yo, can I
can I meet him? Can I you know, take a photo?
And everything? Da da da. He's like, I love this
album and everything. He's like all excited and he goes
to comment.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
He's like, yeah, just you know, I'm trying to be
respectful because you know, you know, ask your bodyguard first
if you could, uh, you know, if.

Speaker 3 (12:21):
You could take a wow you were his bodyguard.

Speaker 10 (12:25):
I'm I'm gonna tell you something fun. That was the
day where I was like, I have to lose weight.
So when I never I never shared this story, but
it was that day.

Speaker 6 (12:39):
When not I got to get more famous, so I
gotta lose weight.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
No, I was like, wait a minute, I wear because
he he he knew everything of that album, and I'm like,
wait a minute, how do you know Common but don't
know the Roots?

Speaker 1 (12:53):
And how do you not know that I'm a member
of the Roots.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
And he's like, oh, I'm sorry, No, offense, Sir, I
thought you were his bodyguard, and I was like, ah, man,
I gotta lose weight.

Speaker 10 (13:03):
So that that was the day.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
Wow, I had to do that. Man shout out. Shout
out to Ernest Thomas.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
Okay, So the thing is is that you grew up
in a church environment. What were first of all, how
many siblings did you have in your household?

Speaker 8 (13:21):
Uh? There were two brothers and my sister Derek is
under me Diane, and then don a l.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
Are you the baby or the I'm.

Speaker 8 (13:31):
The eldest, I'm the oldest?

Speaker 4 (13:34):
Was the D stand for anything where everybody was a d.

Speaker 8 (13:37):
My mom thought she was being unique. You know what
can I say? I mean, my name is d E
n I E c E right, my sister is Diane,
but it's d y A N N E. She was,
you know, trying to be unique and artistic and whatever else.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
She was well you know what, hey, she knew she
was naming like you. That's right, We're an artist. You
gave art to the world.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
So growing up in that environment, how like often kind
of a common theme with some of the singers that
come on the show is often like secular music is
frowned upon, Like you have to stay in the church.
So often they're they're transitioning from the church to kind

(14:27):
of you know, secular music whatever, it's sort of met
with a frown. What was the general feeling of secular
music back then as far as your household was concerned.

Speaker 8 (14:40):
Well, it was frowned upon. You know, if you did
the Devil's music, you want to win and row stick
it on your way to hell, you know. So I
was trying to stay on a hell.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
But so you weren't allowed to listen to Motel?

Speaker 8 (14:52):
Oh yeah, I did, of course I saw that was okay.
That was that, you know. But the bottom line is
that my mother, who who was born and raised in
the church under my grandmother, said when she got grown
she was never going to church again. And so she
drop us off that church on Sunday when I wasn't
with my grandfather, and she would pick us up, but

(15:13):
she did not go in. She was doing the drop
off pickup service. And my an incredible music fan, so
she had a turntable in her bedroom and all of
these different records. So when she would go to work
and I would get home from school before she got
it there, I was sneaking in my mother's room and
play all her stuff. I mean, I wanted to look like,

(15:37):
sound like, dress like Nancy Wilson. That was my girl.
You know, I'm Nancy Wilson, Dakota Staton, you know, Billy Eckstein.
I was listening to all of them, and you know,
with my through my mother's music, she had a very
e collected collection. Like I learned a lot of standards

(16:00):
songs because she had an album on Jackie Gleason and Jackie.
It was the Jackie Gleason Orchestra, and they did all
these standards but no lyrics. It was just oohs and odds.
And I learned, you know, I would sing along with
all of these, you know these records Marlena Shaw. I mean,
so my whole upbringing with music, the secular music was

(16:23):
going on in my house. I just you know, my
mama didn't know I was sneaking in there listening to
all her stuff, but I was. I was up in there.
And then on television when you would see certain artists
like I even told Johnny Mathews, I said, Honey, I
do this duet because I've been listening to singing with
you for thirty years. I was already okay, because I

(16:45):
listed in all these shows and I've been a rehearsal
for a long time. So it was my mother's record collection,
you know, that really introduced me to secular music. And
then you know, and then also growing up and my
math teacher had the record store, so I was over

(17:06):
there doing that, so I listened to all of them.
You know, I loved all kinds of music, so you know,
there was a way made for me to listen even
though it was forbidden. I was carrying all my secret
music life and enjoying myself.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
You know, I can't imagine a time where you know,
music almost had the same sort of status as you
know in some black churchs as almost like pornography, Like
it was just forbidden. So what was that like for
you as a teenager, because you know, being as of

(17:51):
the year you were born, you know, by the time.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
That's you're thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, where like there's.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Now black psychedelic rock, there's you know, towns going through
new phase of sliding the family stone.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
Like how is that affecting your teen years? Well?

Speaker 8 (18:07):
I tell you it did. And probably the most impactful
thing that happened to me was that I did do
a local record you know when I was I think
I was eighteen, called love Is Tears and it was
written by Eugene Records of the Shylights in Barbara Makes

(18:31):
a Woman, Barbara Acklin and Gene. Because my teacher who
owned the the record store he was he came in
the back one day and he heard me singing by
Maretha Franklin record I think I was singing eight and
no Way something like that. And then he came out
to the record party. He said, I didn't know you
could sing. I said, because you don't go to church,

(18:53):
you know. So he's he it had talked to my
mom and say, can I bring over some record people
from Chicago to hear her sing, you know, to think
about recording her. My mom said yes, because you know,
she was like, listen, honey, you sing what you want
to sing. Them other people in that church they crazy nice.

(19:15):
And so they came over and they hurt me and
they and we recorded this song called Love's Tears. And
so but when my church found out that I had
recorded that song, they stood me up in church. They
stripped me up my membership. I was singing in five
choirs at that Indiana State choir. They said I couldn't

(19:36):
sing in the choirs anymore, and they went off on
me because I was I was a sinner and I
had done this. So you know, after they did that,
I kind of swung over to my mother's side in
a minute, like I'm not coming back and so go,

(19:56):
you know, do what you want to do. Are you
unhappy women getting up on Sundays snopping and crying at
your husband street? Anyway, talk about.

Speaker 3 (20:08):
It, talk about it.

Speaker 6 (20:11):
So that first, that first song you did, the Love
Is Tears, you did that under your name.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
That wasn't under Ali, it was.

Speaker 8 (20:17):
Under Denise Chandler because Williams's name. So it's Love Is
Tears by Toddling Town Records. You know, I have one
over there in my safe. I cot a little kept
a little copy somebody sent me. And then they got
mad with me and stripped me up my membership, and

(20:38):
you know I couldn't go. And you know, my best
friend at the time were my cousins, and we used
to travel with their father who was the pastor, and sing.
And they told me, oh, we can't have anything to
do with you because of your voice. And I said, honey,
I said, I am really that really hurts me. I'm
sorry to hear that. But you have to live by

(21:01):
what you believe, and I have to live by what
I believe.

Speaker 1 (21:03):
So come nineteen seventy six, did you get your moment?

Speaker 8 (21:08):
I sure did, and I'm gonna get you more.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
We'll get to that, all right, we'll get to that.
When did you wind up leaving Gary, Indiana?

Speaker 8 (21:19):
I love Gary, Indiana. I think when I was eighteen,
I went away my you know, my band teacher, mister
Bryant was like my father to me, and he got
me into college. His roommate from college was the president
of Morgan State.

Speaker 4 (21:39):
Yea, oh yes, almamado, Yes, I went there, all.

Speaker 8 (21:44):
Right, now, So he sent me to Morgan State, you
know after that, and so it was like I went
there and I majored in sex and drugs, and you know,
the church people turned me a loose and I went
to Morgan State and lost my mind. I ofques, I

(22:06):
lost my mind.

Speaker 4 (22:07):
Oh wait, can you really be saying what was Baltimore
like back then? Though? When you went to When you
went to you.

Speaker 8 (22:13):
Know, Baltimore was wonderful. I enjoyed it. But I had
a friend that lived in the dormitory, and she was
in Philadelphia. Her name was China. So then you know,
I was there on a student work kind of a program.
And so I went into the high school in Baltimore
to be a TA tacher teacher's assistant. And then women

(22:36):
in that class they already had babies. Tenth graders had babies.
They looked rough like they could eat me up. So
I was so Chatta said, uh, girl, I heard they
looking for a singer and a dancer down at this club.
And so she said, let's go down there in the audition.

(22:57):
And and so we went down to the club and
I got the job singing, and she got the job dancing.
And we were singing and dancing in a cage. She'd
be on one cage and I was on another cage.
So wow. Anyway, so.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
Hold on, let's go back to the cage.

Speaker 3 (23:16):
Okay, okay, let's go back to the cage.

Speaker 4 (23:19):
It was the church.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
I'm already seeing the graphics for her episode.

Speaker 8 (23:24):
It was the opening act for these five guys that
was called the Feminiques. They was waiting for the they
change body, their surgery at John Hoppkins Hospital, Baltimore. Yes,
opening up, Yes, yes, I forget the club.

Speaker 4 (23:45):
That was popping in Baltimore that was.

Speaker 6 (23:47):
Known Oh yeah, yes, So mister Denise, what was your
attire in the cage?

Speaker 3 (23:52):
What was your outfit?

Speaker 8 (23:53):
I had on a love jumpsuit, you know, Tina had
on little jumpsuits. And we was in the cage and
I was singing by you know, the records of Rita
and all that kind of stuff, and she'd be there. Yeah.
I made more money in occasion I would have made
if I stayed at school.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
And this was your first time out of away from home.

Speaker 8 (24:13):
And I'm telling you, this was my first time because
my mom borrored my a neighbor's car Ronnie he Borreroddy
car and she drove me from Gary, Indiana to Baltimore.
And when my mom left us standing there and I
pick up and she'd be down the road and then
she's gone, and then I couldn't see. I said, who.

Speaker 3 (24:44):
Oh wow.

Speaker 4 (24:46):
School. I'm glad it had that history.

Speaker 8 (24:49):
Real nice, Thank God, albody. And they already had me church,
had me set up in a church at Baltimore, and
people that was gonna pick me up on Sunday and
take me to church. I love to lasted about two.

Speaker 3 (25:01):
Months Oh it lasted that Long's that long?

Speaker 8 (25:05):
Yeah, it lasted that long.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
I see.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
So, okay, you're in Baltimore. But the thing is, you
released a single. So in your mind when you made
that single, was that just a one off thing? Okay
I made I made a forty five and whatever. But
I mean, are you actively pursuing, like, Okay, I want
to do this for real, I want to get a

(25:30):
record deal and release music or is it just like Okay,
I did that.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
That was fun.

Speaker 8 (25:36):
You know, I never wanted to sing.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
With that voice.

Speaker 8 (25:41):
No, because I grew up in a church with a
lot of great gospel singers, my cousins. They would you know,
they would sing and folks would be slaying in the
spirit and falling out and shouting and running off through
the church. And I would sing and they would listen
and cry.

Speaker 4 (25:58):
Yeah yeah, well, and I was thinking, and.

Speaker 8 (26:00):
I'm doing something wrong because they're not falling out and
speaking in tongue and doing all of that. They're just
listening and they're crying. I mean, they would be boohoo
crying when I was seeing and so I just thought
I didn't have it. And my mom was a nurse's aide,
My grandmother worked in the hospital as the nurse's age.
I had an aunt who worked in sterilizing instruments, and

(26:22):
so I wanted to be a nurse. That's what I
was going to do.

Speaker 1 (26:25):
That's right. Oh wow, I remember that. Okay, I wanted to.

Speaker 8 (26:31):
Be a nurse. I wasn't thinking about the music industry
or pursuing that at all.

Speaker 4 (26:36):
So who explained the tears to you and what they
really meant?

Speaker 8 (26:39):
Who's playing?

Speaker 4 (26:41):
Was said?

Speaker 7 (26:41):
Who explained the tears to you? Like, who explained job? Yeah,
because at the end of the day, you know, you
still do that. So but it's it's a good thing.

Speaker 8 (26:50):
So they weren't saying anything to me, you know, they
weren't saying a whole lot to my cousins, so that
was falling out. You know, they would have their experience
and falling out, but they didn't explain their reaction or
their connection to what we were saying. Probably the only
one that did that was my cousin who was kind
of like my music teacher, you know, he was you know, Denise,

(27:13):
there's if the altos are not strong enough, or the
second soprano or first alan just feeling the hole, you know,
just wherever the weakest.

Speaker 7 (27:22):
Oh no, Denise, I mean, did anybody ever explain to
you that those tears mean so much more, you know
or gift? Yes, because to this day those songs like
your songs. I was listening today just remembering tearing up,
So that's a thing.

Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (27:37):
But they never said anything, you know, they would just
you know, got critical when I did the R and
B song expressed you know, their thoughts about my my
talents and my cousins who had people fallen out. You know,
they were the big, big cheese. They were the one

(27:58):
and you know, the pastors children, and so they were
the big folks in the church. And so I never
thought I had a sad that I better go to
school and be a nurse, you know. So that's the
reason why I went to Baltimore. And like I said,
I don't remember one professor's name, Professor Dix, And that
was because she had gone to Africa and had all
this fabulous jewelry, you know, from Africa, and I remember her.

(28:22):
I don't remember the rest of it except being in
the cage.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
Wow, man, I love the storyteller.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
Well, first of all, is that was that your first
like true professional experience.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
Singing background or with the national artist that I mean
with Stevie Wonder.

Speaker 8 (28:42):
He was the very first. Well, no, let me back up.
When I did the local song, I was asked to
sing at the Masonic Temple on this show with Jerry Butler,
and then I was asked if I would, you know,

(29:03):
sing let it be me with him, because I think
he sang with.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
A pretty good and.

Speaker 8 (29:12):
Yeah yeah. So I sang let it be me with
with with Jerry Butler, and I was like, oh gosh,
I thought I had died and gone to heaven, you know,
because I loved his voice. He was huge in those
days in the Chicago area and you know, all over
with music. And so that was my first time singing
with a professional person. But the second time would be

(29:35):
with Stevie Wonder.

Speaker 1 (29:36):
So what led you to that journey.

Speaker 8 (29:39):
I had a cousin, John Harris, and when John's grandmother
and my grandmother were sisters. But John lived in Detroit.
So the first time John came, oh Lord Jesus, I
fell in love with that black man. He had compel.
He was you know, he got yeah that in his hair, girl, okay,

(30:03):
And so he would come. So my sister said, don't
even think about it. That's your cousin. That's blood y'all.
Get together. You're gonna have idiot children, you know what
I mean?

Speaker 4 (30:15):
That real John.

Speaker 8 (30:17):
So John would come in, you know, every summer for
one week and then what So he's from Detroit, So
he kept telling me, telling us, you know, I worked
for Stevie Wonder. I said, boy, Pinocchio, your nose is growing.
You don't know Stevie Wonder. Everybody Detroit say they know
Stevie Wonder. And he told me that for like three
years that he knew and was working with Stevie Wonder.

(30:40):
So when I went to school in Baltimore, he called me.
He said, Okay, Stevie's doing a concert in Baltimore and
I'm gonna give you a backstage pass. And so I
went to the concert. He introduced me to Stevie. I
think I first met him when I was eighteen, and
he introduced me to Stevie. So I was apologizing to
John Tell was insane. I believe it. Anyway, That's how

(31:04):
I first met Do you know I let him drive
my car with his blind stuff.

Speaker 4 (31:09):
Yo, It's like a whole long list of people who
let him do this?

Speaker 2 (31:12):
Why is he we can do a compilation? And the
amount of times Stevie wanted to has driven.

Speaker 1 (31:18):
Someone's car.

Speaker 8 (31:23):
My life flashing in front of my eyes and his too.

Speaker 6 (31:26):
But anyway, you were in the car while you weren't
just letting him drive it. You were riding with him
while he got on the brake.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
Ah, Sir, I.

Speaker 8 (31:37):
Love Jesus, but I wasn't trying to see him that day.
So anyhow, about two years after that, Uh, John came
and he said, hey, what you doing? And I said, Man,
I have to leave school because that science was kicking
my butt. I said, I don't know what I do

(31:57):
with myself, but I you know I can't handle the science.
He said, well, you want me to get you an
audition with Stevie. I said, there you go, there you go.
He said, no, Denise. He said, you know he's auditioning
for singers, and if you want to, I'll get him
to give you a ticket to come to Detroit and
you can, you know, audition, And that's what happened. I

(32:18):
went in. There was about twenty of us, and I
was one of the three that he chose for wonder Love.

Speaker 1 (32:26):
I mean, I consider the core you Jim Gilstrap was.

Speaker 8 (32:30):
He Jim I first came aboard.

Speaker 1 (32:33):
Huh wow, Okay, I never saw one of Love with
a male singer. Okay, that's dope.

Speaker 8 (32:38):
Lonnie Gross was there, Jim, and Lonnie Grosse was there
when I joined, and then Shirley came a little bit
after me.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
Okay, so well Green also, but before the.

Speaker 8 (32:50):
Supreen came after too. After Oh, Lonnie left.

Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah, that's Jim singing, if I'm not mistaking.

Speaker 6 (32:57):
Is that Jim singing the first verse of your the
Sunshine of My Life.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
He's also the male voice on Good Times. I Gotta
tell the Storis We've mentioned Jim is a singing partner
on that. There's another artist that was on Motown that
Stevie was managing at the time named Blinky.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
And oh you know, okay, but.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
There's one scene in Summer and Soul that I had
to leave out. Blinky was like a performer on the
on the festival and they were doing a cover of
Light My Fire.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
And you know, these are union musicians, not.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Like people that are familiar with the music, and August
of Wind came and blew the music sheet off of
their stands. So it's one of the most hilarious moments
of them not knowing how to end the song. So
there they keep playing in a round circle and it's
it's the greatest car crash I ever heard in my life,

(34:03):
Like of her.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
Trying to end the song, but you know it couldn't happen.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
But I always wanted to know, like, was Blinky one
of his background singers or just I never.

Speaker 8 (34:14):
Heard that she was one of his background singers. I
know her as a singer and as an art as
a recording artist, but I never heard that she was
actually one of the females.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
Yeah, he managed her, or at least according to the
contracts that that we had, he was one of her managers,
but her and Yvonne Fair.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
Were under him.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
But okay, I always wanted to know, like about the
other singers that were in the stable and if they
were wonderlove members or whatnot.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
Did you talk about that.

Speaker 4 (34:50):
Experience, because I'm about to ask the audition, I was like,
what was that?

Speaker 1 (34:53):
Like, Yeah, what's that experience?

Speaker 8 (34:54):
Like that was scary because you know, some of them
showed up with the piano, they had music they wanted
to sing. I just showed up and just watching everybody
you know, in their professional audition. I was sitting there saying,
oh God, oh god, I don't know why I came.
So then he called me up and I started to cry.

(35:16):
I said, I don't know what to sing. I don't
know what to do. So he started playing teach me Tonight,
and then I would, you know, sing along with him,
and I learned, and i'd, you know, do some riffs
or something, would teach me Tonight, and then all of
us at the very end, you know, it has split
up into four part harmony, and we all ended with
singing teach Me Tonight. And that was my audition. I

(35:38):
was not prepared. I was not ready, but he saw something.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
I see, all right, that makes sense for our listeners
who don't know. Everyone in that band was a legend.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
I mean, from drummer Alie Brown to of course we
know Ray Parker Jr. Michael Simbello, yeah, yeah, Michael sim
all those people, but even like the so just in general,
like I was, I always thought of Wonderloves as an army.

Speaker 1 (36:10):
What was it like for you? How was your experience
in touring with that unit?

Speaker 8 (36:16):
Well? I was scared, so it was difficult, but I
came in Dave Samberg was on saxophone. The Brecker Brothers
were playing with Stevie.

Speaker 1 (36:25):
That's right, yes, they were.

Speaker 8 (36:26):
Yeah, Samborn and the Brecker Brothers were there. So there
was a lot of incredible musicians that came through Stevie's stable.
It was hard for me in the beginning because I went,
I actually came. By the time I did the audition,
I had one son. You know, I had been married

(36:48):
and I had had had a son. So me trying
to balance motherhood and broals the professional business of the
recording industry was really tough. But he really worked with
me because you know, I'd be singing and one of
the girlfriends would be standing on the side with the baby,
you know. So you know, he really worked. And it

(37:10):
was hard because I was the only one that was
a parent. Nobody else had any children, so they weren't
leading that double life of you know, having this profession
and touring but still having to raise you know, my
raise my child. And I think by the second year
I was with him, I had another baby, you know,
so it was you know, it wasn't easy. I was scared.

(37:35):
You know. The very first concert I did with him,
somebody said we were going to be doing in Philadelphia,
and I remember it was a club in a King
of pressure Philadelphia. I saw from outside the hotel, you know,
saying Philly that way. We were in King of Pressure.
But you know, it was just me. Thing for me

(37:56):
was balancing a career and being a mother.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
It's nineteen seventy two, you know, because I think in
everyone's mind, especially by the seventies, it's like, oh, you're
on television, you must be a millionaire. Oh my god,
they're on Sesame Street, they gotta be rich. So what's
singing with one of the premiere acts of his era?

(38:25):
Was that a good living?

Speaker 1 (38:27):
Back in nineteen seventy.

Speaker 8 (38:28):
Two, I think it was an okay living. You know,
we made it work, but no Steven was making the
money and you know, we were getting salary that was
you know, it was okay, but it wasn't great. The
thing that really helped me is that my mom left

(38:48):
Indiana and moved out to California, so she was helping
with the kids and we were living together. So that
was a great help to me that my mom decided,
you know, I want you to have this career and
I don't want you to you know, so concerned about
the boys, and and actually it had not it been
for my mom coming out. I couldn't have trusted my
children to anybody else. She took that off of me.

(39:12):
And collectively, you know, we did Okay, was it? You know?
Was was I rich or no? You know, but you
know we we made it work, you know, definitely we
made it work.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
So and being in wonder love.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
One of the requirements was well, not requirements, but you
felt it was wise for you to move to Los
Angeles as opposed to just going north to New York.

Speaker 8 (39:36):
Or initially in the beginning we did go to New York,
but then after being there for a couple of months,
Stevie decided to move to Los Angeles, and so we
went to LA.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
And did this also include session work as well? Like
what notable songs are you singing the background on?

Speaker 8 (39:55):
I didn't do a lot of session work with him.
I started doing a lot of session work when I
left town, you know, so you know, I sang quite
a bit with ROBERTA. Flack, who then eventually hired me,
Lonnie Grose and Patty Austin to travel her with her
as background singers. It was what was right, I think

(40:18):
I'm on that's the time I feel like making love.
And yes, roberta Flack, you know so. But when I
was with Stevie, I didn't do a whole lot of
background work.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
You know.

Speaker 8 (40:29):
I was on a retainer, I was on a salary,
and I felt a responsibility to stay there and sing
with him and not go out and do a lot
of stuff. But the minute I stepped away, I was
doing quite a bit.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
Okay, who else was poaching you at the time when
you were in Wonder Love to come sing with me?

Speaker 8 (40:47):
Well, I had a real frightening experience with Ike Turner,
you know, wow talk to me and he had me
speaking in tongues up in there. I thought, Jesus, I
got the gun. And uh, Kenny Gamble, you know, Philadelphia
heard me singing and they approached me, and I said,

(41:08):
you know, that's okay, because Kenny Gambles had like a
chair that sat like a throne, sitting up high, and
he had you sitting down, and I thought, I don't
think I like this too much, so I said no,
thank you.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
You know, based on the hystatics of his positioning of saying, man,
I get it.

Speaker 8 (41:29):
Telling me to go up in there and I want
to go, and I was scared, and he was saying,
I don't think it's just for you, Denise, and I said,
I agree, it's not.

Speaker 4 (41:36):
Bye, So wait, can you tell us what's the words?
Did I say words to you that made you go?

Speaker 8 (41:42):
Or was it I wanted to know what I wanted
to do and what I wanted to do with my
career where you know, I think I wanted to go.
And I said, uh, I think I'm gonna stay right
there with wonder love for right now. And thank you
so much for considering and talking to me.

Speaker 4 (41:58):
Thank you you could be taking them.

Speaker 3 (42:00):
Yeah, I think you made the right decision.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
I should note that, you know, in seventy two one
of the more unusual pairings. Again, even as unusual pairings go,
like for those that have seen you know, Bill Graham's lineups,
like it was very typical for you to see like
Miles Davis and The Grateful Dead one Night, or like

(42:23):
Jimmy Hendrickson, you know, like some other act that's the
opposite of him.

Speaker 1 (42:29):
But you guys happened to be on tour.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
And you know, for those that followed the history of
the Rolling Stones, it should probably be noted that perhaps
they're nineteen seventy two tour document it very well in
a yet unseen documentary called Cocksucker Blues. Was really like

(42:55):
one of the first sort of ganders into what we
now think like debauchery rock life. Was, you know, the
idea of private airplanes and groupies on the road and
just at least at least the half hour of that
documentary that I saw, can you talk about And I'm

(43:19):
mainly asking this because you know, ten years later they'll
try the same thing. But Prince and the experience was
not good for Prince where you know, he was famously
booed off stage. But at the time when Stevie Wonder
is being asked a tour with the Rolling Stones, was
there was there any trepidation at all, like, Okay, what

(43:40):
do they want with this soul act and how do
we like? What was the audience response night after night
to to Stevie Wonder, who had yet to really prove
himself as an adult artist.

Speaker 8 (43:53):
Well, they absolutely loved him. I mean, Stevie got during
that particular tour, he got you know, mad reception from
the audience, and I think that, you know, that's what
really blew him up when he opened for the roly Stones,
who was were renowned and well you know known, and
the music well known. So that opened up the door,

(44:13):
a giant door for uh Stevie to be there with them.
And the reception was, you know, was good. He did
very well.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
So you guys weren't pelted with any tomatoes or or
any of those things.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
Are you familiar with the Prince story at all?

Speaker 8 (44:32):
No?

Speaker 2 (44:33):
Yeah, so you know, Mick Jagger is a fan of
dirty mining controversy and asked Prince to open up for
the Rolling Stones and about one song and just you know,
the first time is this merciless booze and some Jack
Daniel's bottles. But the next day they came armed with like,
you know, chicken and watermelon and oh so it wasn't.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
Yeah, it wasn't.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Which is where considered that it's Los Angeles. He would think, like,
Los Angeles is way harder, yeah, to please than New
York City was.

Speaker 4 (45:05):
But you can't do that to a blind man. Now,
you can't be throwing the water mountains on the steak.

Speaker 8 (45:12):
No, I didn't know that that happened to him, but we,
you know, we were fine. I think the thing that
terrified me, especially as a little church girl, is the
drugs that were circulated, that they have their own doctor
on the road with them to keep them pumped up.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
And it's like, oh Jesus, So you know, we haven't
had an artist on here that has been on a
tour of that magnitude.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
So what can you describe?

Speaker 8 (45:39):
You know?

Speaker 2 (45:39):
I mean we have a I mean we can imagine
like what it's like on a wild crazy tour, but
you just generally describe what you saw like during that
time period.

Speaker 8 (45:52):
Well, you know, it was really funny what usually happened
with me on those tours. And it started with that
tour is all the roadies really liked me, and they
would say, you know, you want some Hashi you want
you know, we got coke, we got that, And I'll say,
not in Jesus knowing Jesus name, I don't want none
of that. You know real quick that I'm not gonna

(46:13):
be bothered with none of that. You can't have no Kuchie.
And by back it, miss I had to play the
Jesus card, you know, you know, because once I went
to preaching and talking about Jesus, they would back up like,
oh yeah, she really she's cute little girl, you know,
but she really that she's not gonna do nothing, you know.

(46:35):
But they, you know, they would offer me we we
got this, and they walk up with the roll stuff
and walk over with stuff, and I said, no, no, God,
don't ID don't like that. So I, you know, I
played that the Christian card and after a while they
would see that I wasn't interested, so they would leave
me alone. But I remember one night, for some reason,

(46:58):
I got caught coming out late and we were supposed
to come out and get on the bus, and for
some reason, I don't know why, I got disconnected from
the group, and so I went out. The crowd outside
was crazy. It was in Chicago, and they were throwing teers.
The police were throwing tear gas, and so I got
caught up in that. I did our bus and I

(47:19):
hopped on I got on it, but I did the
you know, the tear gas thing, and had gotten my eyes.
So that was probably one of the worst experiences I
had with them, except for the after party at the
Playboard matching in Chicago, when it took me a long
time to get out of there because I couldn't find
a dough.

Speaker 4 (47:41):
I love you so much to do.

Speaker 8 (47:43):
I just find the door, girl?

Speaker 1 (47:46):
How long?

Speaker 4 (47:47):
I just I wonder how long you was in there
trying to find the door, and all the least.

Speaker 8 (47:52):
Forty five minutes in the one room. I walked down
the hall and there was nothing in the room but
a hole in a pole. So maybe if I go
down the pole, out the door. So I went down the.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
Sliding down like a poll.

Speaker 7 (48:10):
Listen, I'm trying to be out down means out glass
and slid down the pole.

Speaker 8 (48:15):
Yeah. I was trying to get out of there.

Speaker 4 (48:17):
And first of the last time you slid down the pole.

Speaker 8 (48:20):
Last first and the last, I said, Lord Jesus, if
you getting me out of here, you don't have to
never worry about me coming up in here again.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
And wow, okay, so.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Wait a minute, wait, wait, wait a minute. I would
like to get her version of this story now. Uh
you know your your your fellow? Uh wonder lovey and
Ray Parker Parker Jr. Kind of gave a very ambiguous hint.
Wouldn't totally confirm it.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
Uh we Also, I mean, this is way before great
villain gains this time, but I need to ask. Okay,
So the week that inner Visions gets released. Uh, you
guys are booked somewhere in North Carolina. Stevie Wonder is
in an accident. What is your version of what happened?

Speaker 8 (49:19):
I believe my cousin. What I remember is that my
cousin John was driving. They were in the car and
John fell asleep.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
Your cousin was the driver.

Speaker 7 (49:29):
I believe John was yeah, oh wow, okay, all these
q are really tied together this yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
Yeah, wow, okay. I I wasn't even ready for that.
I sort of had the feeling that they were trying.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
Ray was trying to allude to me that this is
one of those moments where Stevie insisted on driving or whatever,
and so I don't think.

Speaker 8 (49:53):
Any was driving. If I remember it correctly, my cousin
John was driving, and he nodded a fell asleep or
something like that. That's my recollection of the story. Doesn't
make it true, but that's what I was I heard,
and I have always thought.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
Happened because I was too young to remember it and
only heard about it in sort of like retrospect. Was
there were you guys basically like, well, he won't make
it because I remember it.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
Steevie was in a coma for at least a month
or so.

Speaker 8 (50:25):
Correct, I didn't know it was a month or so,
but I know he was badly injured here, he was
out of it for a while.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
But okay, so in your mind is it like he
may make it, he may not make it, like what's
going through the mind of the band, at least in
terms of we.

Speaker 8 (50:41):
Didn't know exactly if he was going to make it
or not. You know, we didn't know what was happening
after that. But you know, you just pray and hope
the best. And then he did come out of it,
you know, so, And I was grateful for that, even
for his sake, for John's sake, for feeling so guilty,
so bad about to carry that load. So for him

(51:04):
to come out with and it would accomplish the things
he accomplished really helped the spirit and the heart of John.

Speaker 1 (51:13):
All right.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
So I also know that you're one of the last
people to work with the great Charles Stephanie, whom you
know for our QoS listeners, really, I mean, yeah, any

(51:34):
anything on on Cadet records, the Lewis Ramsey Lewis, the
seventies output of the Dells, you know, even some of
the blues artists like you know with Muddy Waters record
and the Electric Mud album and many Rippetons come to
My Garden album, but you know, most notably his, he's

(51:56):
the one that really took Earth Wind and Fire and
was a mentor to Maurice White. So a big part
of that Earthwind and Fire sound that we're so in
love with. You know, it's due to the colors that
Charles Stephanie painted. Knowing nothing about him, really, could you
describe what Charles Stephanie was in your world and just

(52:18):
in general for just that whole organization.

Speaker 8 (52:21):
Well, Charles Stephanie, like you said, brought a color and
a style to Earth Wind and Fire that was really
the most beautiful collaboration in their music. As far as
I'm concerned, Charles Stephanie was just brilliant. When I was
doing a song call on my first project, If you
Don't Believe, and he just lifted up the top of

(52:46):
the piano. He took a guitar pick and just strum
on the strings. That's what you hear in the very
in the very beginning of If you Don't Believe, He
and Oscar for Schure on trump it and he's just
taking a guitar pick and strumming on those strings. I
don't know who else would have thought of that. The

(53:07):
way he heard my music, the way he heard my voice,
even the way he heard Minnie Ripperton's voice, and what
he did with the Rotary Connection and with many, the
way he you know, Charles Stephanie was just a brilliant
producer and a ranger. And you can tell how the

(53:28):
music changed and how he was missed. After Charles passed away,
the sound of earth Wind and Fire changed. It didn't
change in a bad way, but it changed in a
different way. You've now got a whole different sound than
the sound that Charles Stephanie created with That's the Way
of the World and those you know, those songs. He

(53:49):
it was that whole flavor, that whole feel, that whole
touch was gone. He was very very, very very powerful
or played a such a big role in my music,
the emotions music, earth Wind and virus music. Many were
in the Rotary Connection. There's just nobody like him. I

(54:10):
know that Marie went with another arranger and he was
very very good Tom Tom eighty Tom Tom eighty four,
but Tom Tom eighty four and Charles Stephanie had two
very very different sounds and approaches, And I believe that
once Charles passed, what you could hear.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
It at the time, are you hoping that perhaps you
could have your own career as a singer or maybe
one of Love does a record, because you know, at
the time Cev's doing the Serta album, he's also working

(54:47):
with you know, he does stuff with the Supremes, he
does Miracles.

Speaker 1 (54:53):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (54:54):
So for you, what was it about whatever mar east
White was bringing to the table that made you decide
to go with that camp?

Speaker 1 (55:07):
And how do you leave the Wonderlove camp? And was
it amicable?

Speaker 8 (55:15):
I don't think no, it wasn't amicable. I think if
you asked Ray Parker the same question, he probably said, no,
that wasn't amicable.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
All right, So walk us through how do you leave
the situation?

Speaker 8 (55:28):
Well, for three years I was with Steve for three
three three and a half years, and for three years
he promised to do a project on Wonderlove and it
never happened. We would be in the studio writing and
you know, rehearsing, and he never would record us. It
was always one excuse after the other for him not

(55:48):
to record us. Like you said, he was working with
other artists, other artists you know that had careers already.
He did something with the Jackson five, you know, you know,
he he was working with other artists, but when it
came to Wonderlove, he wasn't doing anything. And finally we
had a discussion about it, and he got, you know,

(56:11):
upset that I chose to confront him on this issue,
and so I said, okay, I'm done. So what happened
is one night when Wonderlove was performing, we would always
perform one of our songs, and so this one night,
they said, let's do Denise's song Free, you know, which
I had written when I was with Susse Green and

(56:33):
Nathan Watson when we were in Wonderlove, which was one
of the songs that we were hoping to record us Wonderlove.
And that night they said, we were you know, let's
do Denise's songs. So I sang Free that night. But
what I didn't know is Maury's White, Philip Bailey Verding White,
and their attorney was sitting on the front row. I
heard me singing Free. So then the attorney came backstage

(56:56):
and he said, oh, we loved your performers who wrote
that song song is that, I said, Well, I wrote
it with a couple of people in the band, I said,
but I got other songs too, and Philip can sing
them because we got a same register. So that's how
it happened that Maurice White, Maurice and those guys heard
me sing, and that's you know, that's how I got

(57:17):
introduced to them. It was while I was with Stevie.
So I think another six seven months went by and
Steve still wasn't doing anything. So I left and I
left him and I got That's when I joined ROBERTA
Flack with Lonnie Groves and Patty Austin. And while I
was doing ROBERTA Flack, I got a call saying that

(57:39):
Maurice wanted to meet with me, and I, you know,
I had a meeting with them, and the seven songs
that I sent hoping that Earth went at fire would
cover them, and Philip was singing is the seven songs
that Maurice wanted. Decided to do my first project on.
So that's how that happened. You know, I just got,
you know, a little tired of waiting on Steve to

(58:01):
do what he kept telling us he would do it,
and like even like six months after I'd been there,
and he you know, he wasn't doing it. He did,
he did many rippertendse perf I was on you know,
Minni's album of the Perfect Angel album, and he was

(58:23):
doing all this stuff with other people. And I understand that,
you know, they had record deals, they had money to
pay him for his production. I understood that, but I
felt like, you could, we could at least record one
song every other month or something to start a project together.
And he was just really lax and doing that, and

(58:45):
you know, I said no, And especially when you know,
I made great money with ROBERTA. Flack and I will
always be grateful to her because wonder love the girls.
You know, we traveled with the band on the bus
when we were singing with ROBERTA. Flat She said no, no, no,
you're riding the limousine with me, and it was a
whole different treatment. She taught me a lot about how

(59:07):
to treat the people that you're on the stage with. That.
You know, that is always carried with me, because, like
I said, the ladies, we were on the bus with
the band and the equipment and stuff, and with her
we were riding the limousine and then you know, Mari's
reached out. We had a meeting and I ended up
recording with.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
Him songs in the key Life isn't even created yet.
Was there a slight regret? Not regret, but you know,
songs in the Key of Life comes out, and of
course this is Stevie's magnum opus. Like even at that
time period, did you have any sort of worries of trepidation, like, ah,

(59:49):
we might have jumped the ship too early because this
is a project that sets them off in the stratosphere.
Or was it just like, Okay, I'm out here on
my own, let's just no regrets, let's go for it.

Speaker 8 (01:00:01):
I wasn't on my own. I was with Earth Wind
and Fire Well, and I was roberta Flack to you know,
two groups who I respected, that's being who were interested
in working with me, you know, so I did not
feel like I was on my own. I was very
happy for him, and I was more happy to be

(01:00:23):
a part of that whole situation.

Speaker 3 (01:00:25):
I mean, I have oh oh, we can see the
hardware in the back.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
I love it.

Speaker 8 (01:00:29):
I up here somewhere because he gave me a plaque,
you know, for being on the being on the project.
But in my heart and in my spirit, I felt
it was time to go. I did not feel that
there was any room to grow. I just felt like,
you know, we're going to be here for the next

(01:00:50):
twenty years. In fact, he has a band member that
I was in a band with, Nathan Watson, is still
there and it's been thirty five years.

Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
I was going to say, Nathan is still his bass player.

Speaker 8 (01:01:01):
He's still with them, And that could have been you know,
any of us if we had decided to stay and
I had babies and feed, I had mouths to feed.
I didn't have time to be sitting there.

Speaker 7 (01:01:10):
Those job lessons right there? Are you supposed to give
it what two three years? And if you know it
ain't no movement, then you got on.

Speaker 8 (01:01:16):
That third year. It finally dawned on me this this
could gone for a while and I really didn't want
to to be there another three years or so years
and he's still not do you know for wonder love
what he was doing for other people, But like I say,
you know, looking at it, you know he was being

(01:01:36):
paid to produce. They had record labels, they had budgets,
and you know he would have to do for us,
So no, I didn't feel alone. I mean, especially when
I jumped over there with earth Wind and Fire, there
was no way to fill alone. And of course Philip
Bailey and I became very very very close friends, you
know during that time. That was my buddy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
So were you opening for them at the time when
you went to their camp, I was the opening act.

Speaker 8 (01:02:05):
I would trade off with the Emotions. I would, you know,
do a couple of the tours and then the Emotion
came on and then they had both of us as
opening acts for Earth Wind Fire.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
So what did it feel like the first time in
which you're in charge now where you're the artist and
you have a band and all these things, Like was
it weird now having to have the heavy lifting and
decisions be up to you as opposed to getting an
itinerary and see like what the thing is?

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
And how did that feel for you? Like that first
few months, it was very.

Speaker 8 (01:02:42):
Scared, you know, because I've been in the background and
now I was in the forefront and they were literally
pushing me out on stage. I didn't want to go.
I was backstage and they were talking calling my name,
and I said, I don't think I can do this.
I don't want to do this. I don't think I
can do this, and maybe back there you gotta do it.
Push you know, I went out there. I mean it

(01:03:06):
was like maybe three or four years before I feel
comfortable going out there, you know. But you know, it's
very different, like you said, when you're you know, somebody
is taking care of everything, booking your hotels, booking your flights,
you know, everything is going through you know, somebody else,
and then all of a sudden, you've got to do this.
So you have people that are doing it, but still

(01:03:28):
you're you know, you're the head person that you've got
to talk them through us. So it was very frightening,
you know, for a while, and very frightening because one
of my first tours as a solo artist was with
the Ohio Players, them crazy folks.

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
So wow, you sugarfoot with Sugarfoot, what.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
Was that like?

Speaker 8 (01:03:50):
I would say, okay, Jesus, okay, Jesus. I mean the
boys was nuts one night and shook my hand and
put his hotel room key in my hand and say,
you know, I want to see you at midnight. So
I ran to my road man, not him, but one

(01:04:12):
of the mothers and which one it was it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
Was a player, was a player players preaching?

Speaker 8 (01:04:27):
Well, he put his letner and I would run to
my road manager, who was Leonard Smith, who was the
big six foot eight guy in the show with Earth.
When fire to hit the gong? Uh out there on
the road with me, I said, Leonard. He said, don't
worry about it, give me the key. D fool me

(01:04:48):
after that at all?

Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
That was it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
He showed up.

Speaker 8 (01:04:56):
I got your right here.

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):
That was.

Speaker 8 (01:04:59):
But the thing about the tour with them was is
that they had about thirty grand worth of lights and
special lighting and stuff, and so the all of the
light guys, all the the little you know, all the
little roadies, they just loved me. So they said one
night they said, you know, we don't use half of
what we have, so we've been using it on you.

(01:05:20):
I said, oh, you know, I was the open id
been using it on you. And then as I was
out there with them, free kept climbing up the charts,
and so they got mad at me.

Speaker 3 (01:05:32):
Oh you was showing them up.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
Yeah, because there yeah, after yeah, it was your turn,
just so you know, going up the charts.

Speaker 8 (01:05:38):
And they were just doing all they loved, you know,
spending the thirty grand of light. They said, they're not
using half of what we got, so we didn't using
them on you.

Speaker 1 (01:05:46):
I said, oh, thank you, Wow, love it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
Okay, my favorite album of yours was your your sophomore album,
Song for That. I believe that the single from that
record is baby My Love's All for You.

Speaker 8 (01:05:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
In my mind, I always thought that was like a massive,
big hit. But what happened for that period in Songbird
for You that didn't happen for the debut record, because
I thought that album was bigger. It was my favorite,
so I thought it was bigger. But can you talk
to me about what happened there?

Speaker 8 (01:06:19):
I think that the main thing that happened there is
that Charles Stephanie passed away and the sound changed.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
Okay, Murray was.

Speaker 8 (01:06:27):
Turning down original material that I had written to bring
in outside material. So I think that that was two
of the biggest problems with the project is that he
no longer wanted to hear my personal expression and he
brought another people to write, and that Charles Stephanie had

(01:06:48):
passed away and we were now dealing with Tom Tom
eighty for eighty eight, And those were the things that
I think and I think so like, wait a minute,
we heard this and now you're doing this, and we
needed another project like this is NISSI to solidify who

(01:07:09):
was And yet Maurice uh not, you know, not anything
due to him, but it changed up and people were
scrambling to find out, well, who is she really, you know,
because this is not what we heard the first time around.
And then I was also fighting with Sony, I mean

(01:07:31):
Columbia case I did, God is truly amazing, and they
were saying, we're not paying her to sing gospel stuff?
What is this God of amazing stuff?

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
You know?

Speaker 8 (01:07:41):
And they were mad with me. I said, listen, if
we got ten songs on a project, I'm gonna give
him one. Get over it. And so we fought the
next couple of years about me doing gospel music on
my secular project. So that was going on to they
were mad and.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
Was this the walk yet in the call period of
Columbia or it.

Speaker 8 (01:08:03):
Was Walter and those guys, Yeah, very nice to me though,
I you know, I would go in there and saying,
what I need another couple of hundred grand what are
you in here? But he would give it to me.
So anyway, that was the bottom line. I didn't care
how much he fussed. Go call Marvin down there and
legal and send me my money. Baby needs shoes. And
he always gave me the money, so you know, and

(01:08:27):
no feels, no nothing, you know, get back up, just
write the check now.

Speaker 3 (01:08:34):
Yeah, oh heavy.

Speaker 1 (01:08:36):
So that was still. That was prevalent. That was prevalent
just throughout.

Speaker 8 (01:08:41):
Oh yeah, I love walking in the coffee. Was very
very good to me. Bruce Lunvall started and then Walter.
They were always very very good to me, uh and
very respectful. And I will say, you know, I'm praying
for you.

Speaker 1 (01:08:54):
You know.

Speaker 8 (01:08:54):
So they said, oh, oh, there she go, but they
were very not happy with me. Would do it the
gospel stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:09:02):
That's crazy because I of you know, of all your songs.
I definitely remember that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
That made a impression on my household, like God is
really amazing and all those things.

Speaker 7 (01:09:12):
And that's the thing now for R and B singers
to do to prove themselves on records now, putting the
gospel record on it at a gospel jam last did.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
You feel the need to do that to sort of
send a smoke signal back home to Gary, Indiana, to
the church.

Speaker 8 (01:09:27):
You know, I did it because of my love for
Father Son and Holy Ghost. I did it for me.
I didn't do it for them, and at that time,
I didn't really care about their opinion. But that's you know.
I was raised in the church, and I felt like
if people were going to have a total overview of
me as an artist, I would have to do some
gospel because that was a part of who I was.

(01:09:49):
And so that's why I did it, you know. I
did it for me and to make a statement to
God that you know, I'm I'm really grateful for what
you're allowing to happen in my life. And so I'm
giving you this. You know, I'm dedicating this portion to you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:08):
But eventually you do return to Gary, Indiana. What is
the response now that you're an established artist?

Speaker 1 (01:10:17):
Oh?

Speaker 8 (01:10:18):
Very different? And now I'm okay.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
Now you know church people, well, no, no, I met
back in seventy seven, seventy six, seventy seven.

Speaker 8 (01:10:26):
Yeah, they're still acting a little funny, you know, because
they still don't support or agree with what I'm doing.
But it was funny. I came back around that time
and I attended church with my two sons, and my
uncle decided to preach a whole sermon and to church
that Sunday on how I was going to hell because

(01:10:47):
I had on makeup and beinging out polish and so
and my children were there. So I got up and
I came back, and you know, I was crying. I
told my mother about it. So my mother wrote a
letter to them, said, I heard what you guys did
with my daughter, and this is what I want to tell.
I heard you've been born burning up the mortgage papers

(01:11:09):
because you done paid off the church. My daughter paid
for that church. I want her money back with interest
or I shut the hell up.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
Oh you what you did?

Speaker 8 (01:11:20):
The next time I went to church, my uncle said, Amen,
sister Denise is here.

Speaker 3 (01:11:27):
Switched that tune up quick.

Speaker 8 (01:11:30):
For you them off. She said, I want her money
back with interest. You over that burning the martgage paper
and we know how you burning them. That's the tie
she's been sent money.

Speaker 4 (01:11:40):
I said that. I didn't I say it, y'all, didn't
I say?

Speaker 8 (01:11:42):
She said, I want the money back with aw shut
the hell up, and did another word.

Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
Your first number one single comes a year later in
probably the most unusual way, But this song was inescapable.
When I was a kid, Could you talk about the
decision to pair up with Johnny Mathis and we do, well,
just what that whole experience is like, and the irony

(01:12:20):
that the second to last song on that record, in
my opinion, winds up being even more popular than Too Much,
Too Little, Too Late, which is of course the theme
the family ties Without Us.

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
Could you talk about that whole experience in doing that record, Well.

Speaker 8 (01:12:37):
It was wonderful. I was on the road opening up
of Earth When a Fire, but I got a call
from my manager and he was saying, you know, Johnny's
considering doing a duet and your name has come up.
What do you think. I said, Oh my god, I
would love to sing with him. I didn't you know,
looking and singing along with him on television all these years.
I would love to do that. And so you know,

(01:12:57):
they said, okay, Denise is willing to do it. Because
they first went to my other the artists on the label.
They went to Barbara Streissan and she said no, thank
you God, yeah, she said no. So then they came
to me, you know, the second strongest female artists on
the label. Yeah. So it was funny. So when I
told my mother I was going to see with Johnny Matthews.

(01:13:20):
She don't ooh girl, I gotta get my nails done.

Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
I wanted to walk.

Speaker 8 (01:13:25):
And oh yeah, I said, Mom, I'm not taking you
up in there because you know, I know she was
gonna be buck wow. We won't go get no work
done because she did that to me with Marvin gay.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
So you just.

Speaker 8 (01:13:41):
Go back, go back and will I'll introduce you to
Johnny later. And I did you know, Wait, that's two stories,
good bit.

Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
Wait what happened?

Speaker 8 (01:13:52):
Well, Marvin Gaye's brother was performing at a club called
the Troubadour, and I wanted to see him, so we
went down. I took my mom at the Trooper door
and we went down to see Frankie singing. And so
what happens is we sitting in our seats, but then
here come Marvin. He come walking in there, and my
mom was went off, Oh distant, lover, oh love, oh honey,

(01:14:18):
and she just went off with marvat.

Speaker 11 (01:14:20):
Gay and I looked at her like, excuse me, Johnny
rode around. I wasn't taking no chances, right.

Speaker 8 (01:14:29):
You don't meet him later, but you are not going
to the studio. She didn't talk to me for a
day or two, but she met him and it was
all cold, best daughter ever.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
So in recording that record though, and especially with the
song like too much, too Little, too Late, which okay, yes,
you you're not the ilk of a tenor baritone gospel singer,
you know of of the Mahelia Aretha.

Speaker 1 (01:15:00):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
First of all, you're you're a soprano. So even with
your the voice that you have, what is your active range? Like,
are you able to also sing low as well? And
you just chose to sing singing your upper register?

Speaker 8 (01:15:14):
Or I think I have a really nice low register
that most people have not heard. But for some reason,
when I was writing, I was just writing in those registers.
So that's, you know, that's what I did. I never
did write in the lower register or thinking the lower register. Now,
A lot of what you hear me do is my mom.

(01:15:34):
I used to you know, my mom was singing the
shower and I'd be standing outside of the shower listening
to her, and you know, all that stuff she did.
You know, I got that from my You know, I
got that from my mom. Choose to do so I
think a lot of what you hear is me mimicking
her as she did not, you know, sing I didn't
hear her a lot in the law register, but I

(01:15:57):
do have a really nice uh I'm lower registered.

Speaker 2 (01:16:02):
So that said, because you know, if I were of
age of them, I wouldn't have been able to call
that particular do what simply because I don't know Johnny
as a belter or an ad lipper and that sort
of thing. And of course, you know, when you get

(01:16:22):
to the end of that song, I mean, you're just
you're singing. You're not singing circles around him, but you
know the way that your ad libs are, You're just
I mean, it's it's near Jordan levels of display, Like
he's the sort of like I'm not trying to compare

(01:16:42):
to Appen and Costello, like there's the straight man and
then there's the punchline person.

Speaker 4 (01:16:46):
But Seinfeld and you know everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:16:48):
Do you guys, Do you guys discuss how you're going
to do this? Are you singing together at the same time?
Is it like I'll sing my part first and then
you come and at your parts later, and then I'll
read like for that album, are you singing is it
together in person?

Speaker 1 (01:17:05):
Or how do you handle that? Well?

Speaker 8 (01:17:07):
We would listen to the song and the song would
go down, and then John felt comfortable with me telling
him a little bit of how to sing because he said,
I've never sang with anybody before, and you sing with
Stevie and Roberta, so you know, you know those kind
of nuances. So basically we would run the song down
and I say, I'm gonna sing this. You know, I'll

(01:17:27):
sing this line and you sing that line. So basically
he was the straight person and I would just kind of,
you know, go around what he was doing and try
to add some more color to it. And it was
fun because when we did that, we complimented each other.
We are running all over each other or not doing

(01:17:49):
anything exciting, We just you know, it kind of worked
out like that for me to do more of the
coloring than due he drew.

Speaker 4 (01:17:56):
He was the lines and you kind of color.

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
That's with the massive success of that song. Was there
never a discussion to have a follow up record as well?

Speaker 8 (01:18:09):
No, well, you know, we wanted to do stuff, but
really his managers were really scared of me because you know,
I'm I'm a black woman, and I'm telling what to
do and he started listening, and so I think that
they came a conclusion we need to get her on
out of there.

Speaker 1 (01:18:29):
So they did, seriously, there's just one and done.

Speaker 8 (01:18:33):
Well because Johnny you know, started really listening to me
and I'm a strong independent woman and that's not hisality.
And so after you know, talking with him and hanging
out with him a couple of times, they said, she's
a little bit too much of an influence over him.

Speaker 2 (01:18:52):
So now so the thing is is that I can't
you know, Philip talked to about it a little bit,
but you know, he didn't really go into it. But
of course, like the second big producer that comes into
their Earth Wind Fire stratosphere is David Foster. And you know,

(01:19:13):
like our listeners know that David you know, did like
Wildflower everything everything. Yeah, I mean well, I mean but
mostly just as a soul guy, like did like New
Birth and all that stuff. And of course, even even
though Earth Wind and Fire was able to coast to
a fine level with the all in all record with

(01:19:34):
Marius at the Helm, of course David Foster comes aboard.
And it's always been controversial with David Foster. I think
in real time people were sort of grumbling about David
Foster's production. And of course now the decades.

Speaker 1 (01:19:47):
Have gone by. Everyone's like, oh, I always loved After
the Love Is Gone and all those things. But I
know that Foster.

Speaker 2 (01:19:55):
Worked on, uh, the when Love Comes Calling record, and
and I'm not certain what the chart position was of
I got the next dance. I remember hearing a lot
on black radio in Philadelphia. What was your experience or
your feeling about the Wind Love Comes Calling record? Because

(01:20:16):
I knew that sounded very radically different, yeah, than the
first two albums produced by Maurice and Maurice and Charles.

Speaker 1 (01:20:25):
But for Wind Love Comes Calling, who decided to really
change it up?

Speaker 8 (01:20:31):
Well, Maurice was working with David and so then they said,
well let's put Denise with David. But it was not
a good pairing for me and David to work together.
First of all, he was very condescending, you know, producer
to artists, and he, you know, says something to me
one day and I took the headphones off and I

(01:20:52):
came in. I said, you know what, we will not
work together if you do that again. I said, I
don't even want to go there. I said, you will
not try that with me. I don't know who you
talked to like that, but you won't be talking to
me like that. I said, we will not be doing this.
I said, you're going to respect me like you want
me to respect you. And if you can't do that,
then you need to walk out of here now because

(01:21:14):
I am not having it. So I left the studio.
I told Marius, I said, if he don't turn his
attitude around, it's not going to work with he and I.
And the very next day he was married to this
girl from Alabama and she said, I just want to,
you know, apologize, Well what happened yesterday? And I brought up,
you know, a surprise for you, you know, something for you,

(01:21:37):
and she set the plate down and flipped it over
his fried because I understand you guys like fried chicken.

Speaker 3 (01:21:44):
I'm sorry what.

Speaker 1 (01:21:48):
No, oh god, wait a minute, half of me.

Speaker 6 (01:21:53):
As soon as she said Alabama, I knew, I said,
but was it good a mirror?

Speaker 8 (01:22:06):
And I told David, I said, baby, y'all about to
get your Yeah, I don't even.

Speaker 4 (01:22:10):
Want to say you get the wrong one hurt up
in him.

Speaker 8 (01:22:14):
Okay, somebody's gonna get So we didn't work out to
this very day. David is scared of me, and I
like k.

Speaker 1 (01:22:22):
So it's not word under the bridge at all.

Speaker 4 (01:22:25):
No, and you did not write into that chicken. Correct, No,
none of that.

Speaker 1 (01:22:33):
She could have. You know why you called me out? Like, wait,
why you call out.

Speaker 7 (01:22:40):
Good?

Speaker 1 (01:22:40):
That's not my krypto. Chugen is not my kryptonite. I
wasn't call I was suspects me. I don't care if
it's Popeye himself. No, I'm not eating that chicken.

Speaker 4 (01:22:50):
I wasn't.

Speaker 8 (01:22:51):
I was just getting your question answered.

Speaker 1 (01:22:52):
That's all. Was it good? Though? Yeah, I'm sorry you
didn't need it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:57):
However, I will at least skip even though it was
a you know, I think when you're younger, you take
everything in and you know, I loved that record, even
though I didn't realize.

Speaker 8 (01:23:10):
Yeah, you didn't have any idea of the vaccine.

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
However, you came to my hometown and actually uh my
home studio of Sigma to uh to work on your
your next few records. Did Tom Bell and uh, what's
her name? Yeah, Linda Creed at the time? Did they

(01:23:36):
stop working together?

Speaker 1 (01:23:37):
By this period?

Speaker 8 (01:23:38):
They stopped working together because Linda Creed became very ill
with cancer. I don't know, okay, and that's what she
passed away from. So Linda Creed wasn't well. But also
I had I started writing with Tom Bell. Tom Bell
and I started writing because he wasn't writing with Linda,
and so you know that's what happened. The only songs

(01:24:01):
that we didn't write together or was. I remember sitting
and we used to cook before we would record or
work on a song. And so I told Tom really,
you know, I've been I've been walking around my house
for twenty somebody years singing this song and I really
like to sing it again. I said, I love this song.
He said, what is that? I said, I love It's

(01:24:23):
gonna take a miracle by the word or less, I said.
He got left the kitchen, went onto the piano, started
playing it, and then, uh, you know, we recorded it
and it was what like a top five pocket for me.
It's gonna take a miracle. And so, but the songs
that I did with Tom Bell we wrote together or

(01:24:43):
either I wrote them, and you know that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:24:46):
I know you also worked with the legendaria Clarence McDonald,
who his I know that silly you did silly with
Clarence McDonald and his his resume is out of this world,
Like how did how did that come.

Speaker 8 (01:25:00):
About Actually, Lonnie Groves was dating Claireson McDonald at that
time and wonderful of it. She said, Oh, I'm, you know,
dating this guy and he's doing a lot of stuff.
She's doing a lot of stuff, and so we started
going out, going over to Clarence's house and we started writing.
And that's how, you know, a couple of the big songs,
especially on the first and second.

Speaker 6 (01:25:21):
Album, came about during your time working in the Earth
Wind the Fire Camp. Did you have any dealings with
Skip Scarborough?

Speaker 8 (01:25:28):
I did?

Speaker 1 (01:25:29):
What was he like?

Speaker 3 (01:25:30):
He's one of my favorite songwriters.

Speaker 8 (01:25:32):
Skip was such an incredible, loving guy, really soft spirit.
We went to the same church, you know. He was
just the genius. Just the jenis when you absolutely you know,
don't ask my neighbor, and all the songs that skipping.
It's just incredible working with Skip Scarborough. You're right, he

(01:25:52):
was very special.

Speaker 2 (01:25:58):
Of course he did two albums with Tom Bell and
that's also like your your your last record with the
Arc Organization with Maurice White. What happened, Like did the
label just disintegrate or And I'm I'm only asking because
like again that that that giant logo on on the

(01:26:22):
record was no longer on your records. Yeah, the RC
logo wasn't there. So when I saw the I'm So
Prout record, I was like, oh that's it and no
more So how did how did that happen?

Speaker 8 (01:26:36):
Well, Maris became you know, Maurice and Columbia Records started
having a following out differences of what where they wanted
to go. So then Marris call me and said, we're leaving,
and uh, you know, just know that everything's going to right.
You're going to go with us, And they actually started
talking to r C I And at that time, you know,

(01:26:59):
I had had any relationship with Columbia or anything outside
of you know, going in and talking to Walter. I
would talk to Walk, so we did have a relationship.
Let me back up. But I went into Walk and
I said, listen, what's gonna happen? I said, ARC is leaving?
And what do I do? He says, Oh, don't worry
about it. He says, out of you know, everybody on

(01:27:21):
the label with ARC, you're the only one that we're keeping.
And I was the only act that Columbia count Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:27:28):
Man, okay, well, of course your your next collaborator, your
most consistent collaborator in my opinion is the work with
George Duke I'm missing.

Speaker 1 (01:27:41):
Yeah, could you talk about working with him and just
what it was like.

Speaker 8 (01:27:45):
Oh, I tell you, George Duke was one of them.
It was an incredible genius. I mean you could put
George in any music genre and it would come off incredible.
I mean, you know with Zappa, you know Frank Zaper,
you know Stanley Clark, all that stuff that George did.

(01:28:06):
But you know, he could do classical, he could do gospel,
he could do R and B, he could do pop.
George could do anything. And the thing that was most
incredible about him is he was just a big teddy bear.
He was a big teddy bear. I mean I just
as a person. I loved him. I loved his wife Corrine,
And like I said, I missed him so much. I

(01:28:27):
still can't even walk a drive by their street without teary.
That's how much I miss him. But it was funny
because we were in the studio and we were recording
Black Butterfly, and then we get this call and they said, oh,
you know, they said, we're doing a soundtrack to a
movie and there's one song left and we want to
know if Denise want to do it. So I said, yeah,

(01:28:50):
I want to do it. So they said, okay, here's
you go over to the songwriters and they're going to
play you this song. So we go over there, Dean
Pittring and thompsnow on the pair they singing less Here
for the Boy and they gave us Hey. We walked
out of there and George Juke said, we ain't doing
that song. I said, come on, I said, George, wait
a minute, Wait a minute. I said, it's in a movie.

(01:29:10):
I said, you know. He said, we're not doing that song.
I'm gonna tell you right now, We're not doing that
stupid song, I said, George, I said, I just read
an article. They said, I'm a great ballot, you know
of our times. I said, I could do up tempo
like that. You can, and he said I hate that song,
and so I you know, I tell him my show.
I said, you know, the man is the head, but
the woman is the neck, and she can turn that

(01:29:33):
head any way. She won't, yes, George, and I went
to his wife, Correne. I said, Corene, wanta do that
song with me, and I need your help. She said, girl,
don't worry about it. I'll handle it.

Speaker 4 (01:29:45):
So we water.

Speaker 8 (01:29:46):
We was in the studio and George is mad as hell.
But we was in the studio recording less.

Speaker 1 (01:29:51):
Here listen and how do you feel when? How do
you feel? When it went to number one?

Speaker 8 (01:29:58):
You know what I'm saying. And then when we did
the unsung, they did this unsung on me and George's
on that. I still don't like that song, so I said,
you know what, then give me your producer's royalty. I'll
take you all right.

Speaker 4 (01:30:09):
I'm gonna tell you. Every little girl like me was like,
that's the jam.

Speaker 1 (01:30:14):
I had that.

Speaker 3 (01:30:15):
I had that on a forty five. I had that,
I had that on a forty five.

Speaker 8 (01:30:19):
Give me your money, since you feel like that. And
so because I also tell him at my show, I said,
one night, I was at this club in Los Angeles
and I was singing, and I before less Here for
the Boy, I always ask the good man to raise
their hand, and so this guy in the corner of
the dark raised his hand, but I couldn't see him
because the lights was in my eye. So I looked up.

(01:30:40):
I said, put your hand down. You're not a good man.
So Becausert, my my son Forrest walked up to me
and said, Mom, do you know who you told me
to put their hand down? They want a good man.
I said, no, the lights in my I can't see.
He said that was Bobby Brown. I said that wasn't
That was the Holy Ghost.

Speaker 11 (01:31:06):
I had dinner with Bobby and his wife about two
months ago. I apologize, I said, Bobby, I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (01:31:11):
He said, was right, was right.

Speaker 2 (01:31:18):
I will say that to me, Black Butterfly is one
of my favorite all time songs of yours, more than Free,
more than any of those songs.

Speaker 6 (01:31:28):
I heard that song at every like any kind of
black pageant, like yeah, kind of like graduation for like,
you know.

Speaker 1 (01:31:37):
Emi.

Speaker 2 (01:31:39):
Only one one night is what the guys would saying
in Black Butterfly was what the woman was saying, for.

Speaker 3 (01:31:45):
Real, for real.

Speaker 8 (01:31:47):
What happened was somebody had sent the song to George,
and George played it for me, and the artist who's
a well known artist and I'm not gonna name, was singing.
It was all over the So I told you Orge,
take him off, take him off, and let me live
with it. And I loved it because it spoke about
the trials and the tribulations and what it took for

(01:32:10):
us to you know, to get here our belief, our
strength and tell your sons and daughters passing that message
John and I said, you know, I didn't write it,
but I have to sing it. And for me to
be nominated on the top ten list of songs that
Black Lives Matters has been playing and you know, promoting

(01:32:31):
with their thing that Black Butterfly was on that list
really touched my heart, you know, because you do work,
but you never know what's going to happen or how
are you going to impact people? So that was a
blessing for me.

Speaker 5 (01:32:44):
Wikipedia says Barry Man and Cynthia Cynthia well A while
in nineteen eighty.

Speaker 2 (01:32:50):
Two, Yeah, what's your your your training? Like like are
you a student of seth Riggs? Like how do you
how do you train your voice? How do you you know,
does it if you get easily hoarse?

Speaker 1 (01:33:07):
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:33:08):
Is it the Wretha Franklin thing where you have to
have the air off in the room in order to
sing and open your trichea to hit these notes?

Speaker 1 (01:33:16):
Like what's your regiment?

Speaker 8 (01:33:18):
God?

Speaker 1 (01:33:20):
I mean, there you go.

Speaker 8 (01:33:22):
You know, I don't do anything special. I do warm up.
God is amazing? Was actually my exercise vocal that I
used to do before I actually wrote the song to
you know, open up my vocals. But I just have
to blame it on the Lord because you know, just
I mean what I am sang in about a month

(01:33:45):
and yet.

Speaker 4 (01:33:47):
You know they just.

Speaker 1 (01:33:48):
Happened, right.

Speaker 4 (01:33:50):
But do you also like not smoke or you don't
do the dairy like, do you do that stuff?

Speaker 7 (01:33:55):
No?

Speaker 8 (01:33:55):
I don't smoke anything.

Speaker 1 (01:33:56):
You know.

Speaker 8 (01:33:57):
I try to be cool, you know, in the club
with rum and coke and a cool cigarette. But then
when I found out that this was going to be
how I was making my living and taking care of
my children, I stopped that. I said, no more. I
don't smoke. You know, I don't do any of that
anything that would interfere with my throat. I did hookah
one time, and she said, okay, keep doing that and

(01:34:19):
if I cooperate with you. So no, I'm very particular,
you know. No, I don't want to do anything that
would interfere with the gift God has given me.

Speaker 2 (01:34:29):
I know that you had switch labels that your gospel
output was not on Columbia at all. You mean, at
no point did they just think like, yeah, this makes sense,
let's let her do a gospel record, like, why did
your gospel stuff come out on? I think it was

(01:34:52):
Word Records, I believe No.

Speaker 8 (01:34:53):
I was with Sparrow, but Philip and I went to
Columbia to glather and asked them to give us a
half a million dollars to start a gospel label for
Columbia and they said no. So right as they said no,
let's hear it for the boy. You know, it was
number one and my contract ran out. So I said, okay,

(01:35:17):
this is it. I'm coming back. I'll resign, but I
want to do gospel music somewhere else. And they agreed.
So I ended up on Sparrow and Philip ended up
on Word.

Speaker 1 (01:35:28):
Wow, okay, okay, that's just.

Speaker 2 (01:35:31):
And even with your Grammy success with gospel and whatnot, like,
they still didn't double back and just say, like, you
know what are bad, let's do let's do something.

Speaker 8 (01:35:44):
Know what they did and they gave this other guy
six million dollars to start a gospel label and he
spent it on Arabian horses in Nashville. And they come
calling up fussle with me. I said, no, no, no, no, no,
you wouldn't gave him that six million dollars. I Ali
had asked you for a familiar So now don't don't
call me God bless you, Bye bye.

Speaker 7 (01:36:05):
M I had to fast forward and see when Columbia
got like deep into gods. I guess they did in
Mahalia Jackson, but I was like, man, okay, So Mary,
Mary and the crad they got they got the message.

Speaker 1 (01:36:16):
Show somebody like.

Speaker 8 (01:36:17):
Now they come down and they got the message.

Speaker 2 (01:36:19):
And all right, So with where you are now, especially
well you said you haven't sang in a month, So
is this the first extended break? Like there's a lot
of us a post pandemic kind of had a complete
world stop to sort of regroup for the first time
in our lives for you, was that like the first

(01:36:41):
extended break that you took when the pandemic started? As
far as uh, not doing like a lot of gigs
and whatnot, just relaxing, Like how did you how did
you spend your twenty twenty when it occurred?

Speaker 8 (01:36:55):
Well, I've been working on producer. I'm co producing a
theater piece called Live at the Crescendo Love with Elfie Gerald,
Saravon and Pearl Bailey. So I really sink a lot
of time into you know, working on the theater piece.
We hired our director, we hired our writer, we hired
our music supervisor, we hired a theater company. So we've

(01:37:17):
been working on that for the past two years, almost
on that particular theater piece and going through music for
these three ladies. So I, you know, I've been doing
that and I'm you know, keeping my chops up for
a lot of reasons. I'm still touring, but I'm also
hoping to be able to do the role of Sarah Von,
especially in the beginning, I want to do stuff, So I,

(01:37:41):
you know, I've been doing what I can to keep
my chops up for that because I, you know, I
don't want to do anything that would embarrass this incredible,
beautiful vocalist. You know. For Elfizgerald, my my wishless would
be Patty, We'll see what happens. For Pearl Bailey, my
wishless would be read at devond So what can potentially happen.

(01:38:04):
But That's what I've been working on with that live
at the Crescendo Club, and then with my other son,
we have a children's cartoon that we've been working on
and we have a distribution deal with Ruku. So we're
working now and filming episodes for Lizzie the Lake Monster,

(01:38:24):
which is our children's program. And then my other son
and I started our own coffee company, so we're we
have a coffee shop. So we're doing coffee the Culture
Coffee Company. We're working on that.

Speaker 4 (01:38:38):
And yeah, you said you have a shop.

Speaker 8 (01:38:41):
We have an actual shop. And the girls got a
halked the tops and a little short pasts in the Yeah,
is this.

Speaker 4 (01:38:47):
A Nevada or is it? Where's a shop in Las Vegas?

Speaker 8 (01:38:50):
Our first store, So we are, you know, we're doing that.
And then I'm beginning to get back into you know,
getting back on faceboo, well, getting back on my social
media because I backed up away from that, you know,
just doing the writing and trying to be creative. Started
three books, haven't finished none of them, so any have

(01:39:11):
That's you busy, you know, I mean we weren't able
to tour, but there were other things to be done,
to be work, other projects to be worked onne and
so I've spent this time working on the other projects.

Speaker 2 (01:39:25):
Well besides the play and whatnot. Is there another kind
of bucket list dream that you've yet to fulfill in
your career.

Speaker 8 (01:39:35):
No, I think that, you know, with the various projects
that we have, and we also have another theater piece
called the Fairytale Chronicles stuff that we're working on. So
I think, you know, for me in the music industry,
I accomplished more than I ever thought I would and
it made it's made an impression of positive impression on

(01:39:57):
a lot of people who grew up with me, like
you and who love the music. But since we weren't
able to go out and do concerts and stuff, I
just started working on some other things creatively that popped
up in my spirit, and so I'm excited to, you know,
see this happen. I'm excited to get out on the
road with the theater piece. I'm excited to get our

(01:40:19):
episodes done for our children's cartoon. I'm just excited about
all of the various projects that we're working on right now.
You know, in my hands are full.

Speaker 4 (01:40:29):
It also sounds great for the people who saw your unsung.

Speaker 7 (01:40:31):
It's a nice continuation of chapter to see that you're
working with your sons, right, that's great.

Speaker 8 (01:40:37):
Yeah. Yeah. One of the books is called you know,
the Next Chapter Chapter two. No, the book is called Second.

Speaker 7 (01:40:45):
Act is the children's book, no book that I'm writing
for that you're working on one of the three.

Speaker 1 (01:40:54):
Okay, well you know I just wanted to front you
look like he's about to.

Speaker 6 (01:40:59):
Oh man, I was just gonna say just this this
thank you for the music, like you're there that this
is an easy album. That's like one of the first
records I remember seeing in my grandparents' house, like coming
up and so I just remember as a kid because
I was, I mean, this is I was probably four
or five years old, but I remember the front that
you had on the it's like the black and with

(01:41:21):
the kind of yellow.

Speaker 1 (01:41:24):
Was the wall.

Speaker 8 (01:41:27):
I couldn't I was like, was I was so afraid
when that album cover came out because one of the
leaves did the entirely cover that titty and about this
big My grandmother said that what the big mama see
that part of my titty is out? Oh god, I was.

Speaker 1 (01:41:51):
I was so.

Speaker 6 (01:41:54):
Yeah because the back of seriously the back cover that
I mean, I had to just qustian music kid. Just
that was one of the just the first covers I
remember seeing that I wasn't afraid of because it was
because covers were so big, you know, but you on
the back, and I remember you had like that big
smile and I was like, man, like, this is just
you look really beautiful on that and that's just one

(01:42:14):
of my favorite memories from childhood.

Speaker 3 (01:42:16):
And I love that album, so just think you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:42:18):
I was kind of afraid of that cover, Fante, because
again I thought the wall was eating her up.

Speaker 4 (01:42:22):
I wasn't sure either a mirror I was with you again,
I thought.

Speaker 1 (01:42:25):
That Stevie Wonder is drowning in donuts on songs in
the Wife. So you know, what do I know?

Speaker 8 (01:42:29):
Oy?

Speaker 2 (01:42:31):
I still did they think that he's drowning and donuts.
But you know, you know, we really thank you for
doing this as solid and coming on your show and
sharing your.

Speaker 7 (01:42:38):
Story and be impatient because this has been like our
third time rescheduling this, and I just appreciate you for that.
And although you may not evoke all kinds of yells
and screams do your music, the emotion that you wouldvoke
is priceless, timeless, and we just thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:42:52):
For it, sir and Steve anything, thank you for Let's
here for the boy.

Speaker 8 (01:42:59):
From my heart.

Speaker 3 (01:43:00):
I'm not trying to make a joke. Thank you, just
even if even just for.

Speaker 5 (01:43:03):
That for real though, because that's where that's that's where
I found you and then and then went backwards.

Speaker 1 (01:43:09):
So thank you, yes, absolutely well once again, ladies and gentlemen.

Speaker 2 (01:43:13):
This is Denise Williams on Quest Love Supreme on behalf
of Fun Takeelow and Layah.

Speaker 5 (01:43:19):
And and based on that partial titty, I'm going record
shopping tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (01:43:23):
I'm gonna pick that one up anyway. This is question.
We'll see you on the next go around. This is Steve.
Thank you, Bye bye West. Love Supreme is a production

(01:43:48):
of my iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio,
visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.