Larry Blackmon of Cameo

Larry Blackmon has carried funk music across generations. He tells Questlove Supreme about his role as a visionary, piloting Cameo's transition from the '70s into the '80s, and connecting Bobby Brown and Teddy Riley.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quess Love Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio. Hey,
what's up y'all? This is uh fuss Love Supreme. It's
kind of awesome. I've been knocking out buckle list after
bucket list. Um, all the drummers better influenced my life.

(00:22):
Time out. Let me see what's up to the team
Supreme starters. Sugar Steve, where you at right now? Bro?
He's in the elevator. Wait, you're at your apartment already? Yes,
a little walking? You ran? You ran home briskly. I
think you lived to New York City, locks away from

(00:43):
where we work, so you're you're a speedwalker anyway. Uh fartacolo.
What's going on? Bro? I'm good man, I'm cool man.
Uh frand send him one up for la Man. I
hope she gets better. She heard a leg today, so
us right by the right. But yeah, I hope you.
Hope you get well. Work wife. We're praying for you,

(01:04):
Yeah we are. We're playing for you. You know. I'll
say that our guest today is well. I feel like
all of our guests on Quest Love supremer legendary, but
our guests is definitely a legendary. Trend setter u In
both music and fashion. Yes, the we cannot state that enough.

(01:26):
I'll say that, you know, once behind the driver's seat
of UH I think at its most maybe fourteen piece
UH funkatorium called Cameo, and um you know, I'm dying
to know how per DM was handled back in the day.
But you know, having having been of age to witness

(01:46):
this band and their first incarnation as a four team piece,
I got I gotta say that these brothers definitely took
entertainment like to the next level. Their their live show
had to be seen to be believed it. If you can,
there's there's a clip of them, or there's a show
he used to watch as a kid called Don Kirshner's

(02:06):
Rock Concert And you know, the first incarnation. For those
of you that remember when Cameo just wasn't a quartet
or or a you know, or or a trio, that's
that's one for the history books. But um, I would
I would like to note that while many of the

(02:27):
bands that were you know, from the sixties and the seventies,
they kind of found the transition to the eighties a
little difficult to make. And our our guest today and
his band of brothers not only found kind of a
way to coexist with a new art form that was
really much gonna eclipse Black culture in general, and of

(02:50):
course I'm talking about hip hop. I I will say
that our our guest today probably pioneered what we know
as New Jack Swing basically by by embracing a hip
hop attitude, you know, clearly like a year or two
before Shakas I Feel for You, three years before Teddy
Riley sort of figured out the magic combination um that

(03:13):
connect with Jimmy and Terry. Shout out to Jimmy and Terry.
Of course, you know, we discussed what's control the first
New Jack Swing album, like the idea of hard drums
and and soul music. But I'll say for many you know,
um of those albums in the eighties like She's Strange,
Single Life, especially the the Timeless and Still you know,

(03:37):
gets much play today, like songs like were you know,
word Up and Candy. I will say that this band
has has gotten a good places that allow their contemporaries
like the Commodores, the Ohio Players, the o j Is,
the Barcas Man Drill named them, really wasn't able to
make that transition. And we're just honored I again, thank

(03:58):
God for d MS shot my shot and it happened.
And ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Quest of Supreme. The
one and only Larry oh black Man down there cameo,
what is up, my brother? Are you? That's really good question.
I appreciate you having me on. Man, it's your pleasure.

(04:19):
I appreciate you. You know, make it, making this happen.
Where are you residing right now? Where are you talking
to me from? At the moment, I am talking to
you in a place called Atlanta, Georgia. So you still
reside in the A all right? No, no, no, I
reside in in in Henderson, Nevada. Okay, Vegas, but for

(04:42):
for other family reasons. And uh I've been here off
and on for for a minute. And uh, as you know,
New York is my home no matter where I am. Okay,
I feel like I'm zipping a across here and there. Man,
you know how we do it, you know. And I

(05:03):
happened to really enjoy that uh June Tea celebration. It
was on CNN. Man, I saw you, and uh, you know,
you're one with a few drummers that respect the pocket,
because without that, it's nothing. You taught me, well, man, yeah,
that's funny man, that you're you're from Philly, because that's

(05:25):
when I really started. Um, I went to Edison there
I heard yeah, yeah, yeah. So so I guess you
know a little bit more about me than I know
about myself. But I don't. I'm not just. I'm not
I'm not just. Uh. You know, I knew Candy and
I knew you were a red jockstrap. I know Camio, man,

(05:48):
I've I've read interviews and not you know, for me
as a professional, this is thirty years in the making.
Like the fact that we haven't crossed paths yet. To me,
is this crazy? But it is. I know a lot
about you because you have so much history. Man, I
might as well. I gotta immediately dive in. Can you
tell me in your life? What was your first musical memory?

(06:11):
My first musical memory, Yes, in your life. I was
about five years old and my aunt was staying with
us in New York. She was some Augusta Georgia and
love his sister and she always talked about the Apollo

(06:31):
and she took me to my first show there. So
my first musical memory was I guess being about two
rows back from the stage and and and observing Sam
Cook that was first musical memories. Um. And and then

(06:51):
she tells me the story about after leaving there, I
broke away from her, running down the street and almost
ran across Seventh Avenue. Uh, and came close to being
met by a Grahund bus. And she didn't think it
was that funny, but um, she said, I would laugh

(07:13):
and let it catch up with me and and break
away and run that much more. And that had nothing
to do with music. But being that my first musical
experience was there, I was like. And then after becoming
old enough to make it there myself, I used to
play hoo keep from church and because the names on
Sunday for years. Okay, so do me a favor because

(07:38):
this is like a rabbit hole show where we nerd
out on information like that, could you please walk me
through like a typical day where you go to the Apollo?
Like how much did it cost? Like where would you sit?
The acts that played? Like can you walk us through

(07:58):
a typical hollow? What you're are you talking around? This
is the sixties? Seventies? Oh my god, this this had
to be the sixties. A typical day? Was you know
parents would give us these uh envelopes. We were members
of the Union Baptist Church. On a between seventh and eight, okay,

(08:24):
we would go to church. I would take my sister,
she was about five years younger than me, and we
go and we'd wait until offering time, which we would
take the envelopes and put it in play. And after
the play went around and everything, there was something else
that happened. They would play music, do something. But I
would give her at the signal and then we meet

(08:46):
in the back of the church if she wasn't sitting
with me, and then I would take a across the
street to my cousin's house, leave her and take the
eighth Avenue bus two fifty and go up to the Apollo.
But anyway, they had man names. On Sunday. There were
two shows on Sunday, and I would catch the earlier show.

(09:07):
And my seat was if you're on the stage, you
look to the left in the first balcony right there,
that was my steep okay, and it didn't have my
name on it. And strangely, I love I was never
challenged about where I sat um and that went on
for years. I've seen every late great performer of color.

(09:34):
I mean everyone from Okay, Sam Cooke, Jackie Wilson, Um,
Flip Wilson, of course, James Brown, I mean, and and
the lines went around the corner in both directions all
the way to the rear of the theater. Um became

(09:54):
acquaintance with acquainted with a couple of the massive ceremonies.
Uh goodness names. I can't think of some of the
names right away, but I don't think and I've seen everybody, Ray,
Charles Um, b b King, Benny King, Joe text Um.

(10:16):
For you, who was the act that really grabbed you
the most? Like when you saw them? Like for you,
is it just like I'm bored, let me go see
what's at the Apollo? Or you know, was the music
calling to you? Was it just something to do on
a Sunday? I did that? I was. I was. I
was totally captivated buying everything that happened. And I don't

(10:39):
know if you have any memories of the Apollo, but
they used to show a movie before the uh live acts.
It just it just grabbed me. I mean every Sunday.
That's something I did. Like clockwork, Um wasn't discussed. Didn't

(10:59):
feel that I I had to. I just had to see
whoever it was there. The one show I did not
see was the Jewel Box review. I didn't even know
what it was until some years later. You know, I
never questioned that, but man I was there, and you know,
turned into friendships with uh five stairs steps with Kenny

(11:24):
and Clarence and family, and man, I mean I remember
times when the Jackson five were there, when Michael was
running around backstage, up and down the stairs and Jermaine
you know, you know, if you know Jermaine, you know
he was the protector and you know, just to get

(11:46):
to know those guys on a one on one basis
was was. I enjoyed that in a great deal. So
you were you were just allowed we wait, like throughout
the theater or just the more the more uh people
hoest me. I was allowed to enjoy what I enjoyed doing,

(12:06):
and that was you know, um, it was a weird thing.
I cannot even remember how certain things turned into friendships,
but I did that. That happened a lot at the Apollo.
How many of these shows would occur a day? Is
it just one long concurrent show from like would a

(12:27):
typical show just be like a two hour experience and
then they get rid of people and then you come back.
Or yes, it was like that, I believe at one time.
I understand there were several shows a day, okay prior
to my attending, but I would remember at least two shows,
and they would add a show according to whatever was

(12:50):
going on. I watched the documentary on HBO, and a
lot of it I remembered, uh, but some of the
acts that were there prior to my going, I heard
a lot of things. And then Amateur Night I believe
it was on Wednesday, and that was the guess within itself.

(13:14):
It was Apollo to me was a finishing school, if
you want to call it that. But that's where I
I really cut my teeth. I remember George Clinton Parliament
before it became Funky Delictment. I remember the first show
when it became that, and of course George was wild

(13:37):
as as we've always be over the years. But there
was a group called Flamingos then had a song called
Funky Broadway, and that was the group that, as far
as dramas were concerned, that turned me out. That solo

(14:00):
and the Funky Broadway was the solo you had to
play if you were not dicing the Blazers, daking the Blazers.
And there was a nat called the Flaming dagon Ablazers
one thing but the Flamingos. It was called the Battle
of the Bands groups. Manhattan's uh, Parliament's Parliament, and a

(14:26):
lot of other acts. Can I have something? The incarnation
of the Parliaments that you saw? Have you has funky
delic the sort of the rock version of the p
funk organization. Have they ever played the Apollo? Oh? Yes,
indeed were they well received or were they a little
bit too wild for that audience? Gradually I loved they

(14:50):
were well received. Uh, and they were using I believe
the amplifiers were called. I forgot what they called their thing, Uh,
the damn amplifies. Let up um. It was Eddie Hazel. Okay.
He was louder than I've heard anything on that stage

(15:12):
at the at the Apollo, and strangely enough, the audience
enjoyed it. I never understood that. And on that particular show,
I was on the second balcony at the top right.
I think it was about fourteen years old at the time,
and uh, it was it was for me. It was

(15:35):
a proposed for the time. It was well received because
it was unlike anything we'd ever heard before. I was
seen before. We were all aware of the new music
coming a Crosbie, Stills, Nash and young sly Um you know,
and and his members Larry Graham and you know I

(15:59):
went from there too. I forget what it was called
Graham's Graham Central City. Yes, and man, that whole transition
was then. It was quite enjoyable. And the Chambers brothers
you you know about them, so psychedelic, psychedelic black rock
that played well with the Apollo audience. Yes, indeed it did.

(16:24):
You know for me, Well, tell me, like did you
come from a musical family or like how did how
did music enter your life? As far as like this
is your calling? No musical family members at all. It
started with the drawing bugle car. There was a military organization,

(16:47):
uh called the Junior Guard and it was it was
located at the three hundred sixty nine Armory on a
hundred forty street, right down the block from where the
world famous Cotton Club was located. Okay, but at that
time Kun Club had been torn down and they had

(17:09):
some other h was it minisent Ya Minisan organization who
had been known for that, you know, a fierce drumm
and bugle corps. I mean they were about the best
uh in Harlem at that time. And three have two
ninth Armory was where this organization that was modeled after

(17:32):
the army. If you remember, Hitler had a youth organization
and I, you know, I didn't have a historic record
about how this happened, but they had a junior called
the Junior Guard. And I just noticed in America, UM,

(17:57):
a lot of the Gestapo Gestapo habit habits were used
by our FBI. The head of the FBI JA, So
I noticed, you know, and they dressed it differently and
brought it in a different way. But they used a

(18:18):
lot of what they saw work in Germany, Okay, with UM,
with Hitler's business UM, and I figured that had something
to do with this, uh how this organization came together.
They saw what worked, and they tried different things, and

(18:40):
the government paid for this organization. UM and so joined
it at an early age, around twelve, and UH you know,
went up in rank to uh master the sergeant. But
what I loved about it was the organization of things

(19:00):
you learned. You couldn't learn these things in any place
else uh, the typical of our arm services. Um, and
then at one point they started a drumming and bugle corps.
All right, And at this point I'm approaching junior high
school and from there UM and then going to junior

(19:22):
high school, I immediately applied for the orchestra and I
played drums the first year baritone basically after the second year,
third year, went back to drums, um, and that's where
my musical career started. Dagg in the places came out
with Funky Broadway, the Flamingos that it was something that

(19:46):
they did. They apolloed had another thing done before, but
the beat that the guy used was similar to that
of Funky Broadway. Okay, and U and they had a
move that and with it, but it was it just
it just totally took me some place I hadn't been previously.

(20:07):
As soon as I got home, I started during that okay,
and then we started all acoustic band in school drums,
trump bone, baritone, tennis ACKs and there was another person
who floated in and out, but we played for the

(20:28):
assembly and it came off and people wanted to hear
his play. So occasionally we would play at the hundred
and sixty Audibon Autibon Ballroom where the next yeah, um,
it was across the street from a hospital I had

(20:50):
attended with a thick file, Presbyterian Medical Center, and and
so I remember those times as well. But from there
it went to um an Electric band. Um and that
band wound up being cameos some years later, quite a few. Actually,

(21:16):
how did you wind up in Philadelphia? Because when did
you go to Edison? Oh man, God, I went to
Edison for one year, um I Um, I was you?
My grandmother lived in Philadelphia. The family was from Georgia, Thompson,
Georgia and then Augusta, Georgia, and then they spread out

(21:40):
from there. Um. My mother had seven sisters. She was
the oldest, and most of them moved to Philadelphia with
my grandma. So and she was an adevid churchgoer. Uh
So it's just like, um, the met there in Philly,

(22:04):
which was yet be done, I understand, and it's it's
supposed to be phenomenal inside. I haven't seen it since.
But that was the place that we would go at
least four nights a week. Um. Church was mandatory. Um,
you didn't get to avoid it. And uh so that's

(22:25):
how the whole Philly thing happened, and we uh, we
were in an area between Norris and Diamond. Yeah, North Philly,
you know r F. That's how Jill Scott says, you
know r F North Philly? Okay, you were from West Yes,

(22:50):
I have a lot of relatives there too. I didn't
even know what West Philly was. I knew where the
Greyhound bus station was. Did you like it too much
as as a kid? Or was New York more like?
Was New York too hip? Was Philly like a downgrade
for you when you came? Or I wouldn't call it

(23:12):
down grade. I would say that there was a large
gap between culture and you know, it was just very different,
you know. Um as I remember there was a lot
of a lot of violence going on in Philly and

(23:33):
the older you got, the more you understood what was
going on, but never did really understand why. So how
did you because because of the gang culture, especially back then,
how did you avoid that? Or is it just the
unspoken thing of like if gang leaders knew that you
had some sort of talent or you could get out,

(23:53):
they just left you alone. I really don't think it
mattered to them. Um, I don't know if they knew
or not. But I know we lived in between two
North Street and Diamond Street, and and you would probably
know more about that than I know. That's where we were,
uh they were talking about. I mean, I couldn't believe

(24:17):
they were actually talking about drafting people into certain gangs.
We were the guys that did not go for that.
But we we avoided that. I like the plague, I see,
And that's how we avoided that period. You know they had.

(24:38):
I'm sure they had their things to do, whatever that was,
but as I said, you know, my grandmother was an
avid church grower, and that wasn't part of the agenda,
I feel you. So here's the question I have. You know,
for most of the Funk legacy, most of them get

(25:01):
their start in the Midwest. And probably one of the
key components of starting in the Midwest is that families
move out there. There's industry. You know, they get factory jobs,
good paying factory jobs, and they live in these houses
that even have wreck rooms or dens or garages, of
which you know, with with that extracurriculum money, you buy instruments.

(25:24):
But how are bands able to form and living in
a cosmopolitan city, and which you know, the average black
family lives in an apartment or you know, Philadelphia is
kind of known for its small house structure. So I
know when I was, you know, coming up, I mean,

(25:45):
my neighbors kind of liked me, so they were willing
to put up with the noise. It was like it
was like I was, I was Calvin for McDonald's, Like,
I'll leave a mirror alone because he's gonna be something
one day. So but you know, the walls were really
thin and Philly I didn't live in a place where
you had space unless you lived in Queens or something
like that. But like, how when you start a band,

(26:06):
how would you where would you guys rehearse or be
allowed to make noise to even see if you have it?
Everything sort of developed from school, okay, And in that
area there was an apartment or complex called the Bridge Apartments. Uh.

(26:27):
It was on the other side of the Washington Bridge,
and they had these rooms. Um when you went into
the building to the right or left, that were just
rooms with space and um. As you said, people like you.
They see that you're trying to do something different, and

(26:48):
somehow they let us use these rooms and we would
rears there. It was difficult. I grew up in the
projects and everyone knew who was playing drums when it,
you know, reverbed off the walls on that on that block. UM.
We didn't have a lot of different musicians, but the

(27:09):
ones that I mean, you knew of them because you
could hear them. So uh yeah, I'm sure I annoyed
quite a few people. Um and in a couple of buildings,
but for some reason, one ever came to the apartment
to say, uh, could you bring it down a little bit?
I'm sure a lot of a lot wanted to. They

(27:32):
felt guilty about someone who was trying to play music. UM.
I would play with the stereo, of course, and James
Brown was our pocket master. UM. And you you just
pad to have that that swing, you know. I learned
early on if a person could not dance to what

(27:54):
you were playing, it didn't make sense. And then when
you started recording, that was a whole different, a whole
different experience. UM. I would use the click track as
a guide, UM because not listening to the beat as
much as UM it allowed me to relax inside the pocket.

(28:19):
That was what was happening. I was talking to D'Angelo
once and uh, he was telling me about you, you know,
you playing with him and uh, and I said, man,
I mean he's happening. Um, And he went into a
whole thing about how what Prince was saying about this

(28:41):
that or the other. You know, Prince was a great
guy man, I as a loof as he might have been. Um,
you know we had good conversations. They were never long
at really Yeah, yeah, I forgot you. You brought John
Blackwell to him? Yeah, yeah, so a great I'm the
great great John Blackwell. A couple of people, but for him,

(29:04):
KEMMYO was the farm teams for Prince. Yes, yes, yes,
indeed vocals for you. Larry was regarding your early days
and drumming you were playing on. You had a chance
to work with Black Ivory and uh, I want to
know what if you remember what songs you played on
and if you remember anything about working with Leroy Burgess.

(29:26):
He's another kind of hero of ours. Yeah. I like
Lee Roy. Leroy lived in the same project that I
them there and Leo was cool. Um. I worked with
Patrick Adams mainly. Patrick was the Lee Patrick Adams, he
just he just passed passed And I played you and

(29:48):
I have an understanding I believe that you and you
and I really yes, that's the one yo. Wait, how
did you know that, funte because I didn't even know that. Yeah,
it was you know, I have informant but but man, wow,

(30:11):
he's only okay, that's dope doe. Yes, uh huh it was.
Patrick was a phenomenal guy. Man. He played like six
or seven instruments and we would start off on the
keyboard and the drums as I was started um and
I played. Goodness, I must have recorded for four different

(30:34):
tracks to a but you know, don't turn around and
and that you're not mm hmm whoa? I know you
played on you and I damn Okay, that's a classic.
Your first band, East Coast with Gwen Guthrie talking about
how did that come together? Well, we played at the

(30:57):
Cheetah a great deal. She was with a group called
the Matchmakers. I believe they were from um East Orange
and we would see each other a lot. Uh So,
when I was about to form the first unit that
turned in the cameo, I asked if she was interested

(31:18):
in joining a band playing all originals and of course
that was a dream back then and East Coast we
played uh in long Island a great deal and whenever
we could get I could get work. We played in
Quebec a place called Tour of the Air, which was

(31:43):
our Montreal. Um. We were up there for a while.
That was That was the closest thing to a residency
that I can remember. But When was a very talented
you know how talented she is. Uh, he was phenomenal. Man.
I loved working with when Um and her and and

(32:05):
uh trombone player connected uh and they wrote as amount
of fact. Then that Ben the Ashburn, the Commoner's manager. Yes,
she was living in Lennox Terrace at the time. We
had a residency at Smallest Paradise Ums in Harlem. Yes, yes,

(32:29):
I believe. I believe that Robert de Niro now owns
that club and has kept it running. Oh really yeah yeah, yeah,
m hmm. He he hooked it up and kind of
refurbished it. Oh okay, I know of a patient in
Philadelphia that he did the same same thing, But I
believe that was more of an after our place. Yeah yeah, Mittens, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(33:00):
he's uh yeah, you know we were story about Robert
and I are staying at h at that that hotel
in Hollywood. Yeah, where where Blueshi was found. Um, oh, damn,
I used to stay there. Um yeah, yeah, of course yeah,

(33:24):
uh uh and uh Rick and I were staying there.
We were there for other reasons. But that's how I
met Eddie. As a matter of fact, Rick introduced me
to him and then I produced his second album, I believe, um,
the one after how could it be? The one after

(33:45):
we put Your Mouth on Me? Uh yeah, the one
with that song on it? Yea, yeah, okay, it's Chateau
Mama was the was the hotel Mama, That's right. Yeah.
And you know Rick had to get the room that
they found John Belucian. Um, you know what. Everyone is
obsessed with that bungalow number. Everyone's obsessed with it. That's

(34:09):
where Denia and I met. Uh. We would always meet
in the garage, Um, coming to going here Hunter at
the time, and who I recognized that I wasn't and
it wasn't that kind of thing. We were talking about
typical things. Um yeah, I know. He he honorary brother man.
He's he's he's he's a real guy. He's already done,

(34:38):
already done, already done. So even before the crafting of
the group, like who who else? Was just around the
scene in that period in the early seventies, mid seventies,
before cameos started, there was a person that's not no
longer with us. He's a co writer on that You

(34:59):
and I have an understanding by the Moments, which was
a big song. His name was Tyron Johnson, saxophone player.
He was absolutely genus. Um, I've learned. I learned so
much from those cats and here I am, you know,
goodness gracious about nineteen at the time. As a matter

(35:22):
of fact, the group I was working with, it was
being managed by Jeans Red at the time, who who
was the producer for Cooling the game. So George and
I have known each other a long time and he's
always been the same guy. Um, George, yes, man, Okay,

(35:42):
he's a good brother. Um it's love thing that could
go past or birthday that he wouldn't send, um, you know,
a happy birthday. And they were playing at the Apollo,
so as you can see, you know, being affiliated with
those guys. Um, those relationships last the longest. Real musicians too.

(36:04):
It mattered to us back then, you know about everything
everything we were doing, and Tarro own taught Ronald had
a circular breathe, um, and we just played with with
cool And then how long ago was that, son? Yeah?

(36:25):
Before the pandemic? Okay, okay um at the Mohican Son,
I believe it was. Yeah, And so before I got
out of the dressing room, Ronald ran in and and
a couple of the guys. I mean, we are reminisced
about those times. It was. It was very special. Let

(36:46):
me say that you're speaking up brother Bayan. Uh. There
saxophone player who passed away from the pandemic. One of
one of my main regrets is not interviewing him. Man.
He you know, he had so much knowledge and good
story in his word. Yeah he was. Um, so can
you tell me the story that well, not only that

(37:08):
leads up to you forming cameo, but how you caught
the attention of Cecil Holmes and and Neil Bogart on
Castle Blanket, Chocolate City. Okay, Well, at the time it
was New York City Players as we called we call ourselves,
and we played East Coast the Chilling Circuit behind people

(37:31):
like the Ohio players, George Benton, um and and and
others you know, um, Rochester, Buffalo, Toronto, Michigan. Uh. You
know anyway, there was a club in New York. I
had passed this place millions of times, didn't know what
it was. It was called Better Days, and the guys

(37:55):
that handled our administration at the time, this is one
of his haunts. And we wound up playing there on Mondays.
We would play you know, the upstate New York reason
and circle back to New York. We would get back
I think Sunday, and we played Monday's there at that place.
And there was a guy who was a songwriter. They

(38:19):
wanted me to produce this song he wrote called find
My Way. It was during the end of the disco era.
M So we recorded it and do one of our
songs on the other side. Neil Bogard, what's crazy about
the song? Uh? We did a single deal with Casa Blanca.

(38:42):
You know that was after the Buddha thing. Um with Neil.
Neil didn't even know we were black, And yeah, um
it was a single deal. And and Neil promoted this
song and did as much as he could for you know,
any song. Um, but he was just crazy about it

(39:06):
when I guess they found out we were black. Then
it became a Partici so Homes Chocolate City label. Anyway,
So after I mean after he I mean he couldn't
do anymore for that song that I mean, we put
our hearts into it and did the work. But I

(39:29):
asked you so to come listen to our original material. Um.
And then we rented s I r over there fifty
two Street and scil came to here and we played
Riga Mortis funk funk um, the songs were working with

(39:49):
at the time. So after rehearsal was over, the presentation
pretty much was over. I asked him if if you
thought we could do something, and he said I think so.
Then then an offer was made for an album deal. Um,
and so every album we recorded after that was gold.

(40:12):
Rigor Mortis was the first single I happened to be
working on Wall Street at at um this have a
dashery and if I don't know if you guys remember,
but Frankie on BLS had these slots called the world premiere,
and I forget what the other ones were, but I

(40:33):
noticed whenever it was a world premiere song debuted, it
became a hit. Maybe maybe maybe it was because it
was played twelve times a day, but anyway, I was
sitting at customer and heard the World Premiere and then
our song it came on. I have the Frankie Crocker

(40:55):
World Premiere drop I collect, uh you know, as as
as a so called a story and I often beg
and buck people for like old school radio drops from
back in the day. So yeah, yeah, well when that
came on, I knew what Riga Mortis was going to

(41:15):
be a hit. I had never heard I mean, every
everybody else Barry White, um oh. I can't remember all
of the all of the world premiers at all, but
um man, I gave unified one that did not become
a hit whatever. For whatever reason, Rigga Mortis did forty
copies in two weeks and then we were off. At

(41:43):
the time when you wrote Rigor Mortis, was you know,
a monster groove? You know the environment at the time
in nineteen seven, you know, p funk it finally planeted
its flag. Of course, earth wind and Fire. You know,
they're they're pretty much the monuments. How where are you

(42:05):
of what the environment was as far as funk bands
were concerned, And was it a thing where it's like, okay,
well what can we do to stand out from the
rest or make our own mark? Because the one thing
that I will say about you guys that maybe maybe,
And I don't count heat Wave because they're even though

(42:26):
they're from two brothers in in Ohio. I've just never
seen a band like literally do everything but the kitchen
sink on stage, as far as the presentation, the dancing,
the it's it's beyond just performing your song, Like what

(42:49):
what what was it? What was in the drive that
drove you guys to eat and to dance that hard
and not be out of breath? Like can you just
walk us through the soul aspects of what you guys
were trying to go for when you're doing this of quest,
you know this, that's how bad we wanted it. We

(43:10):
wanted to do what we felt would work. Um. I
think Earth mony Fire played played a large had a
large influence on us at the time, and and surely
there after Maurice was like a mentor. UM. He would
play or they were playing at the Omni Omni in Atlanta,

(43:35):
and he'd called and asked and you know, let me
know where he was. And just recently Larry Dunn was
telling me, man, I remember seeing you even Maurice's room
at three am in the morning. Maurice was was very
very generous and sharing um things that I could not

(43:56):
have known at that time, and the political going on
and enact that large and regardless of you sow five
for six people, you know, there were always tends to
twelve on stage. And and and that's why I cut
down on the photos on how many people took photos

(44:18):
because I found in marketing that it's easier for for
a fan to remember you know, four or five people,
but if you turn the album, you'll see everyone then
had something to do with you know, what we were doing.
It was a collaborative affair. Um, it was a democratic dictatorship. Okay,

(44:47):
with the experience that I had at the time, it
was just coincidental that I couldn't think of anyone else
that possessed as much. Uh. And and everyone was open. Two.
I had an open door policy, you know, if you
had something to share, something to give something to you know,

(45:09):
uh suggest I was open because I felt that you know,
for a group, especially like Cameo, uh, it took everyone's
sincere involvement. And you know, we didn't have room for
um games. We had to be radio friendly. No matter

(45:34):
what we did, they would tell us that where they're
playing ballants. Now you know, you guys need to come
with a ballot. We come with it up tempo because
we thought that worked at New York Radio and it did.
You know, the choices we made was great. I got
one question though, Yes, because this is typical what you'll

(45:54):
see when when bands from the seventies sort of transition
to the eighties, you see that they will scale down.
My my, my guess is for financial reasons. But how
as band leader? How are you able? Like why would
you have four teen people inside your organization? Like? And

(46:21):
what what is pay? Like? What is what is per diem? Like?
What's per diem a thing? How would you guys get
two gigs? Like? Are you driving yourselves? Was there a
torre bus back in? Uh? Did you have roadies back then?
Said one question? And it's like questions fourteen. But trust me,

(46:44):
fourteen was not Um. You know, the decisions were made
by the gentleman you're speaking to right now. I had
a responsibility and if it didn't work, if someone else
had a better, uh way of approaching it, I was
open to that. It wasn't you know, as long as

(47:06):
it was working, it was working. Um, But isn't it
also like managing personalities and Jedi mind tricks, who's late
to the bus, who has an attitude? Who's talking to
this girl? Who? We didn't have that that we were serious.
We were deadly serious. It wasn't you know, we didn't

(47:26):
have that problem. UM. I think everyone appreciated the fact
that we had built something that was hard to keep together,
and we tried to avoid that nonsense as much as
we could. Yeah, and then when we talk about the seventies,
our thing happened closer to the end of the seventies.

(47:50):
We did have a bus. We bought a used Brahund
bus at first UM and then we brought a bus
to Muhammad Ali sold to us or his representatives and
it worked UH for several years. It was in Jet
magazine how about that? And in Life magazine to center page.
We took a photo for publicity reasons. But you know,

(48:14):
I enjoyed working with you know, talented cats, and it
was fun as well, because I couldn't think of anything
else that I would want to do. I did attend
Julian for UH for almost two years started happening, and

(48:35):
I just didn't see any reason whatsoever that I should
stay at that school. When um, hearing things like you know,
no one contributed anything to contemporary music worthwhile since the Beatles.
I said, okay, I got you. Well let me let

(48:55):
me get ready for us to put our gates together,
you know what I mean. So when working on like
the Cardiac and Rest record, which you know is the
first album you produced it were you nervous as a producer,
did you? Or was it just like a learning curve?

(49:16):
No I produced before Kallio was a group. Okay, I
worked a great deal and producing and taught self taught engineer. Okay. Um,
you know I had relationships. I played with the group

(49:37):
Top Shelf. As a matter of fact, that's how I
met Patrick. Okay, the group Top Shelf. I believe they
had a regional head called give it Up. Just remember
that or not. But I had, you know, I had.
I knew people like um Brendon and Tablations right on
the tip of my tongue, right right right right, cool

(49:59):
people and running to them in Hollywood and in other places. Um.
You know, I was truly aside from a student of music,
and and you know I've had some some moments man
that were just unforgettable. Um, and what you always wanted

(50:23):
was to be a part of black culture. You wanted
to be remembered as being a part of that, and
I think we achieved that. UM. And it takes a
while before you realize what you have done. UM. And
you know that brings about, you know, other challenges and

(50:46):
other things to do. UM. But you find that you
understand your music in a different way. UM. And And
it wasn't about going in a sort of phal okay,
it was about you know, achieving goals and and you

(51:07):
you're serious about it. And when I discovered the miss
bt X A fifty, my whole world change. Then. UM,
for as production is concerned, that was a hell of machine.
I can tell you that that thing made silence sound
good well somewhat. I won't say a total tech head,

(51:31):
but what I did know and understand um, you know.
And then I was happy to be a part of
old school ending and then the new technology emerging. I
really enjoyed that because the things that UM did, I
know how to do with music. And and believe it

(51:53):
or not, it doesn't even matter anymore today, it doesn't
seem to matter as much. But I always wanted music
just sounds good, and if you listen to it matters.
It does matter. Okay, here's the thing. I know, I
know a lot of us have our thoughts, unlike this

(52:17):
person seems to just be phoned in from home or
the thing. The thing is though that there are artists
out there, they are doing it. Um. I just think
now that because the gate is why left, you know,
wide open um. It's it's it's almost like way too much.
It's saturated. And but I'm I'm a person that likes

(52:39):
to search for you know, there there are some diamonds
and the roughs out there that kind of give me
hope that there's still a good future in music. It's
just oftentimes, and it's like that in history. It's like
sometimes the best of the crop don't necessarily get the

(52:59):
mass of exposure that um, someone that who is not
as talented gets. You know, That's that's always been the
history of music. You know, like a group like the Meters, uh,
you know, unfortunately didn't get the push that they should
have gotten, you know what I'm saying. So it's yeah,

(53:23):
absolutely speaking of D'Angelo, Um, I've never met a cat now.
I mean again, cameos all things to all people. And
you guys have had your your different phases and your metamorphosis.
But I for some reason, he told me, like when
he was a kid, like the cameo ballot meant more

(53:45):
to him than even earth winning fire like people would
like with with established hits or whatever for him, like
Why've I Lost you? Or even Sparkle. A matter of fact,
he produced Sparkle for um I'm forget that. That group.
It's like four brothers from It's like right after Brown

(54:05):
cugarit came out. D'Angelo produced a cover of Sparkle for
oh group called twice Oh Wow. It came out in
like and and uh Angie Stone and like the first
time I heard Sparkle because the thing was like even

(54:26):
on Brown Sugar, like those patches that he had, like
you instantly knew it was him, but for him, like
your ballots meant everything. Yeah, I was gonna ask you
about Two of Us because that's been sample. You know
what I mean by are sample it? Uh? You know?
But yeah, I love that song, man. Yes, Two of

(54:47):
Us was a nine song, wasn't. I knew that you
had to have If you didn't have a banging ballot
along with the up jump bo banger, then you didn't
have a record. We wanted to be a part of
our culture. In order to achieve that, we had to
achieve those those goals you had to and I had

(55:12):
to have a first tenor a a soothing baritone, okay,
and then we you know, um, I consider myself a
song stylist. Um. You know, unlike Luther V and Drawers,
who we know when he was born, he came out

(55:34):
singing those that are fortunate enough others who had to
play the top ten to work being a drummer or
being a band, trying to have consistency. It was important
for you to learn those things. And as a result,
we have all and we have other things that we

(55:56):
learned that you make your style Okay, but I appreciate
every Ohio. I mean I was with Sugarfoot that long
before he left us, and I mean, what could that
guy do that I wouldn't like? I don't know. You

(56:17):
listen to some of those records, man, and come on,
you know that that ship is real? I mean, can
I tell you? Can I say anything else? Um? The
great Leary Browner Sugart? Yes? Absolutely, man. You know you
know something, Um, now that you mentioned it. What I
truly admire about your approach to music, uh, in a

(56:41):
way that I actually think. And I don't know if
this blasphemous to say, because you know, for a lot
of people they're the mount Rushmore. But um, what I
always loved about your version of songs is how you
handled what I dubbed the Greek course in terms of

(57:05):
like to take a song like attacked me with you
love or back and forth where you all sing. So
I forgot where I heard it. I don't know if
George told me, but he's like, if you do it
as a Greek course, where all the voices are singing
in the same unison, then that's a more inclusive thing
for the audience that want to learn the lyrics and

(57:26):
sing along with you, like a shower singer or a
bathroom singer. Um. And I always wanted to know was
that by design? I call it a choral lead. Okay,
that type of vocal approach. Okay, it feels good. I
don't know if if George's theory is correct, I wouldn't

(57:50):
challenge it. I think there's more truth to that than not.
But when when I approach producing and production and I
tried to make it what someone would like, I tried
to put myself and in the audience's position and listening

(58:11):
to this and choral lead are really there, really is
an effective technique because then you can have individuals accent
that approach, and you have a chance to do things
with that, with that material that you wouldn't any other way.

(58:35):
I try to imagine it as a lead and it
doesn't have the same umph. Okay, And and I would
take that and and play with that With songs, Uh,
there would be no guarantee that the way you hear
a song originally would turn out to be as as
you might have imagined it to be. And I think

(58:58):
having that control, which is why we have the variety
we have in cameo. UM. It couldn't be a one
dimensional issue. Could not be. There's too much to do,
too much you can do. Um. So when we talk
about UM songs and okay, what's your approach to this song?

(59:19):
How do you think this should be? You know? What
about this chorus? How do you want that to happen? Okay?
And who's going to make the transition, who's gonna set
up the bridge? Okay? What are we gonna do there?
Man to me, I love my work. I could do
that and a couple of a couple of lifetimes. You

(59:41):
know a lot to do if if you truly enjoy music,
and I enjoy all types of music, and you can
relate to this. I'm gonna mention what was the name
of that song, uh Grove in Washington, that album come
Mr Magic, Mr Ma, come on George Benson. Yes, but man,

(01:00:07):
I used to walk around with that claim that that
Mr Magic and uh and and and Jorge Benson's um
material in New York. Um. I used to live when
when I moved from my parents home, I lived across
the street from I guess a city Center street between

(01:00:29):
six and seven. And man, you'd be surprised who you
run into just walking down the street. Fredis stare um
um um, I mean Gene Kelly when New York, New
York debuted at that theater right around the corner for me,
scorse New York, New York. Yeah, and where the studio

(01:00:52):
was quadrasnic and became known for a lot of things.
You wouldn't want the studio. We know, I know about
quiet studios, trust me. But and Central straight up I
almost signed up my man Teddy Riley, Yeah we met there.

(01:01:13):
What I just signed it yeah, but Teddy said, Larry,
if I signed with you, man, Jean, try to kill me. Griffin,
that's a that's a true story, asked him. All Right,
you know, I gotta know what was it for me?

(01:01:37):
Like as a fan of your your your entire canon,
for me, starting with Secret Omen, something different happened. And
you know, a song like I Just want to Be.
And I know, like every cameo fan has their cameo
song that they stick to where they say, okay, like

(01:01:59):
Rick and Mortis is the funkiest or she Strange is
the punkiest or whatever can But for me, I Just
want to Be was so damn futuristic because the thing is,
I know that record came out in seventy nine, but
in my mind it sounded like for me, that was

(01:02:20):
Prince's blueprint. And this is way before we're talking about
new wave or the Minneapolis sound or whatever. But just
like the stacking of handclaps, the absolute gut bucket funk
of it all. How how did that song even the
fact that you guys you know, have miniature courses inside

(01:02:41):
of even the even the structure of that song is
so weird, like it's um, I Just want to Be
was our first gold single, and and I probably brought
them all. It was. It was it was real strange,
and it was different, and that it was meant to be.

(01:03:01):
It was meant to go against the grain of what
everyone thought a head record was. And it was about
the melodic structure being accented based on a melody that
was in that you know, base range, okay, based the
lower baritone range, and you made the music exactly as

(01:03:25):
the melody was going. And the other things we did
with that developed on its own while being created and
while being recorded, I say, having had the good fortune
to work with engineers that were frustrated about how they
were recording the same old ship, you know what I mean,

(01:03:49):
and we just had to do it differently. Engineers like
Dave Oh, I don't know if you're familiar with him, yeah,
man uh, And I had no idea Jay played bass man.
He was We were to control freaks. They learned how
to work and learn how to work with each other,
you know, and we did and it turned out to

(01:04:11):
be dynamite. I mean, some single lives word up and
and the and the mixes thereof it was. It was
just phenomenal. Man, every other look to be pushed it was,
and I'm certainly a guy that was not afraid to
take that fade away it was going to go. I said,

(01:04:31):
you know, I don't judge music by what that needle
was telling me and what that graph is telling me.
When I from then and then I know I've i've
I've raised it too hot. You know that's just feedback
there that I understand. But you know, I used to
get into the arguments with engineers about you know, you're

(01:04:54):
at plus five. I don't plus five plus live. It
doesn't matter to me. I just want that thing. I
want to I know it camps on and I want
to see where I have to back off. You know,
there's no way to know unless you go there. I
gotta ask you, and for for a lot of fans

(01:05:17):
of of of hip hop, um, you'll be interested to know.
I gotta ask you about brother Aaron Mills. Um, Aaron
Mills two hip hop fans, I guess. Starting with stank
Odeon album, basically Like Aaron mills Is base became the

(01:05:39):
sound of like a lot of outcast is funkiest songs,
starting with like his base work on Miss Jackson Uh
and beyond like Uh, He's all over speaker box and whatnot.
But he's the base of I just want to be
finding Aaron was. You know, we we were booked out

(01:05:59):
on a date. H n c CU was booked on
that day. Um, North Carolina Centuries at n CCU. Yes,
he's from North Carolina. Yeah, I went to Central. That's
my that's my mom and mother right. And Professor Bird
was working with some of the cats actually both groups
um um the birds, yes, Black Birds and n c

(01:06:21):
c U. UM. So you know, we needed a bass
player who could do vocals as well and could move.
So when I saw her and I knew that that
was that, I knew we had to try him out.
And so we uh contracted them and and offered them
to come up to New York to to try out.

(01:06:44):
We used to use the Daily Planet there on thirty
whatever street that was on, and and we had some
people that I just didn't want it, man. They were
they wanted to be in an act where it was
totally different and we could make it happen and approach vocally.

(01:07:08):
Our approach about anything was about being tired of the
same old stuff, you know what I mean, And we
want we wanted to do something different. That's what we did.
And and we've used some musicians from London. Uh, it
didn't matter where they were from. Man, if they had
that thing, and especially when it came to recording and

(01:07:34):
ideas that were different, it was exciting. It was beyond
beyond that. And also to um want to mention Bernard Wright,
who you know recently passed, Like, what was it like
working with him? Man? We were talking about that that
hours ago. Um, I still um that that. That was

(01:07:57):
hard for me too, And you know, and I didn't
know what because as as demise that and someone told
me he was hit by a car. Oh wow. But
Bernard is one of those geniuses and his later teenage years,

(01:08:18):
everybody he listened to was dead. I mean, and that
funking for Jamaica. Let's come on, we know what that is. Yes,
I mean the masterpiece. I was just contacted recently about
some tribute that they're doing to Bernard and I'm trying
to think about that thing. Um, Bernard was. You know

(01:08:43):
there are guys you you you've had relationships with the
remind you of people like Jimi Hendricks and and and others. Um,
they just have there on that different on that different
trajectory that's like you can't think of to other people.
M hmm. Thanks, with the same flavor. Bernard is one

(01:09:07):
of those guys. And I've worked with I don't know
how many capable of players. Um, his spirit was something
very different. Had you ever worked with the request I
met Nord a few times at like you know, occasional
jam sessions and whatnot, but it never got to work
with him, um, and really really didn't get to nerd

(01:09:29):
out on him like I wanted to, you know. And
I'm such a fan of like just that era of
Marcus Miller and the you know, the Jamaica Boys and
all that stuff. And I'm such a fan of such
a fan of that era. But we're probably gonna have
Marcus Miller on soon, so I'll get to learn more
about him. But no, definitely that he you know, especially
you could tell to me, you could tell like that

(01:09:52):
you artist three of someone. I'm I'm a hits guy.
I mean, I'm I don't. I think I'm more of
a filler guy that I'm a hits guy. Like I
feel like the true definition of artists is based on
the album cuts and how they treat that. And for him,
especially like he's just his ideas were like way, way,

(01:10:13):
way beyond, way beyond his time period. I want to
skip I want to skip ahead to the Alligator Woman album.
You know, Alligator Woman is probably one of the most
curious songs of your catalog. Um, and at the time,

(01:10:37):
like I think Blacks were trying to figure out, like
what their position was in just a non dance music
structure for that album, Like could you just discuss what
the creative angle was, especially with that very unusual song
in your catalog, Freedom, That was the precipitating factor. After

(01:11:02):
a while, you start to hear, well, you've heard it
all your life, but you didn't really pay attention to
it until it pertained to you or involved you. And
we were at it at a place where you know, yeah,
we recorded a lot of things and they were very
good to us, but um, Alligator Woman, you just wanted

(01:11:27):
to Freedom to be able to do. And surprisingly enough,
it's surprised the heck out of me. It did quite well,
it didn't, I mean it, I was really surprised about that.
And I think at the time maybe number four or five,
or maybe even high on the R and B charts
at the time, but songs like Secrets of Time and

(01:11:51):
Flirt especially Yes, yeah, yeah, I mean that was that
was that was that was some funny stuff. Um. Indeed,
we didn't try to be different as much as we
challenged ourselves more or less. You know, I would also
like to know I know that in eight two, maybe

(01:12:13):
it was eight one, you made the transition from singing
vocals behind the drum set and getting in front of
the microphone. For you, how far was that to you
or you know where you are reluctant leader? It was
very feign um and how how did you find a

(01:12:36):
drummer that you trusted live? And we're still we're still
looking for that drummer we've had, we've had them that
we've had them at times. Um, it was a real
strange thing. Uh, you know, we didn't with the changes
that went on, we didn't have that person up front

(01:12:57):
that had the relationship with the audience that wanted for
it to have. And and as much as I didn't
want to, uh, it was discussed a couple of times
and then and then hear things like you know, you
gotta you gotta come out front because you're singing these songs. Also,
that is that we're performing and you're joined the stand

(01:13:21):
a third. Um, and men, have we had drummers, God knows,
we have tried. We had everybody with you guys. Hey,
you never know, Man, I wouldn't put that on my bucket.
Listen you man, Uh, you're one of the only drones
I know what. Uh that has a steady pocket. That's

(01:13:42):
for real. There a couple of other people we've heard,
but it's not as easy as you might think it
should be. I don't know. I haven't figured that one
out yet. I can't even put it into words. Um,
but I know it's hard working. I am very close.

(01:14:04):
I'm good sitting back down on those drums. I'll tell
you that much. Man. I was curious to know about
your work with Miles Davis. Um. What was it like
working with him kind of man? And specifically why was
he just randomly in these videos without any context whatsoever.

(01:14:26):
I met Miles when I was eight years old. At first, Uh,
Miles used to train with boxers to stay in shape.
And uh, and my dad was in the barsing game
and uh. So it turns out Miles had an attorney

(01:14:46):
that um, when he passed the bar, he represented me
or us Uh. In a situation where the manager we
had um and some years later UM low and hold
Peter's representing Miles yokoh no UM several different people. So

(01:15:07):
and knowing that I UM had a song that I
had somebody who played the you know, the demo of
that I wanted manage to hear and and he called
back that afternoon about two hours later, and uh, I

(01:15:28):
like this, and uh he was writing an autobiography at
the time with the Gentleman with Quincy Troupe. Yes, yes,
and man, we had a good time with myleles. You know,
everything he had to say meant something. And uh, man,
do I miss that guy? Miles I enjoyed. I was

(01:15:50):
a lot very useful energy, which I guess somebuns for
the musicians here up playing with him. His nephew played
for us for a while too, but um, being in
the videos, we just invited them down. And uh, you know,

(01:16:11):
Miles was always colorful. It was the hect of a guy.
And and he seemed to enjoy the female company of
the ladies. Yeah, just without any context. You would look
and then it would be like Miles Davis for like
two seconds and without the internet and without like a
VCR to rewind, it was like, wait that, now, that

(01:16:33):
was a Miles Davis. What would he be doing that?
Like when they first came out, I never knew that
was I was like, that's a guy that looks like
Miles Davis or you know, maybe Charlie Singleton had a
cousin or something that was Solder or something like that.
Like that's what I was thinking. Oh, I know what
I want to know. At any point, did any of
you guys sort of get make the correlation that the

(01:16:58):
young lady that's saying nasty girl was actually on the
front cover of Alligator Woman. Oh? Yeah, we of course
we knew that. Yeah, so you know instantly that that
was that was Vanity on the cover of Wow. Okay, indeed,
because I know she was doing before Vantagy six got established,

(01:17:18):
but right, but she was. She was just perfect for
for what I'd say, we uh the photographer and and
uh Peanut Gallery. Yeah, say no more, I got you.
But uh but it worked. And I think Prince must
have called her about four or five times while we

(01:17:39):
were working shooting that day. That's right. They weren't dating
by then. Okay, I see who this was on the
phone until it became and someone said something about I
think it was the photographer at the time, and I
forget his name, but he was. He was colorful too,

(01:18:00):
and I thought the idea it was great and it worked.
Keep talking about establishing your own label, because I think, yeah,
slightly before She's strange. Maybe it was Alligator Woman or
style you started Atlanta Artists label. It was a logo

(01:18:21):
label more than a separate label within itself. It didn't
have its own distribution structure. Uh. That was stuff. I
didn't want to get into it that the particular time,
and it didn't make a difference to me at that moment.
But we did well for it and gave us positive
identity in Atlanta. Um. And uh, we were fortunate enough

(01:18:44):
to have some people working with us that helped a
great deal. And uh we were able to, you know,
get some different things done. It was really quite positive. UM. Okay,
we don't want to start talking about regulabels and in

(01:19:08):
the games thereof Um, that's that's a whole another maybe
if you started another series. I feel like, hey man,
let's talk about it sometimes. Uh, I feel you this
is also the period where and this is this is
sort of across the board, where you know, the word
crossover kind of becomes part of the black music vernacular

(01:19:33):
as far as well, I know that was a four
letter word, but you know, not only that, but just transitioning. Um,
you're seeing a lot of lead singers leave their groups
in eighty two. You're seeing a lot of groups that
were once fourteen, thirteen, twelve members whittled down two trios

(01:19:54):
and whatnot. How hard was it for you to come
to the decision that, Yo, man, we just gotta we
gotta pair it down a little bit. I don't think.
I don't think anybody in our act saw it that way.
And yet I have to be totally honest, I never asked.
I know that Jean Paul Gautier had a summer line

(01:20:17):
that was had just been delivered to blueing Dale's, and
our wardrobe guy made us aware of it, and he
checked the sizes and found that it would work for
that concept. And and as I said earlier, for identity purposes,

(01:20:37):
I think it was easier for our fans to focus
on a few people instead of a lot of people,
and I think that worked for us. I turned around,
and every other band is doing the same thing. So
what made you keep tell me? And and and Nathan
and Charlie like kind of asked the core members. I

(01:20:58):
don't think char he was there on that particular on
the on the world up cover, but we'll not word up,
but he was at least we're yeah, when we paid
when we paid it down starting with strange Alligator Woman
and in style and those things. Yeah, we we tried

(01:21:19):
to keep it a little closer uh to where we
you know, we just wanted the identity to work. Um
and at that time you think you're making a good
decision about what works for the act, and it did
at the time. Yeah, this is a strange business. You know. Um,

(01:21:44):
when something is working, it's working, and I think people
appreciate that until it gets into um selfish reasons, you know,
and you that that just happens. It's going to happen,
you know, as all things. You know, there were challenges

(01:22:05):
before that we had to get over when it was
East East Coast and and other uh con configurations. Um,
so I you know, what happened happened. You just had
to work with it. And you know it's easy as
it was for me to to be so busy knowing

(01:22:29):
what you have to do next. That I didn't worry
so much about what was going on at the time,
just being prepared for something else was you know, maybe
maybe that was an escape MECHANI mechanism for me. I
don't know. I I only say that because I think

(01:22:49):
about that now, But at the time, I wasn't concerned
about that. Okay. We just wanted to be good at
what we did, offer something fresh the high definition. Advent
of high definition was the greatest thing that could have
ever happened, not only with us but every everyone else

(01:23:12):
because it was said that UM technique would be in
everyone's home and it was, which was which was fun.
But when we did the candy video, uh, that was
that was phenomenal and that that that piece of work there,

(01:23:33):
that that's historic. UM can I ask you about that video? Okay,
So for our listeners out there, I mentioned a few times,
but like you know, for fans of black music, you
really didn't have much to go on when finding out
the information of your favorite acts, Like you either stuck

(01:23:55):
in the sort of tween them of right on magazine
or the whole or opposite of it, which was like
either epping or jet So for a lot of like
music heads like myself. There was a sort of a
radio show called Lee Bailey's Radio Scope. And you already
know where I'm going with this. I gotta so here's

(01:24:16):
the thing. Everyone's laughing at this, and I know you
know where I'm going with this now, mind you. I
was fifteen at the time. Now, Radio Scope on weekdays
was only like a three minute kind of like uh
quickie news update on serious you know, at least a

(01:24:37):
serious journalism if you want to call it that of
your favorite groups. But I had never heard a more
controversial hot take like Radio Scope was almost like black
Twitter before black Twitter. And you know, for me as
a fourteen fifteen year older watching you know, LeVar Burton

(01:25:00):
and and like the word of video and the candy
video and all that stuff and even like attack me
with your love with with Debbie and and what's his
name from? Uh they were in general hospital or whatever?
Were you? How upset were you when fans were complaining about,
you know, sort of accusing you guys of not focusing

(01:25:23):
like you you would have a wide array of women
in your videos. It was black women, it was white women,
it was brown women, Asian women, Like were you aware
of how like discussed discussed your videos were at the time,

(01:25:44):
like there was just a thing where it's like only
black women are allowed to be in cameo videos, and
why there's all these why the all these white women
and Asian women, Like yes we we now it's like nothing,
but it was so pioneering back then and controversial. Were
you even aware of Lee Bailey's radioscope and how like

(01:26:04):
fans were sort of just like hot behind the collar
over this more than I more than I wanted to be.
But that's why you laugh when I said Lee Bailey,
he didn't get any complaints from the fans. We got
no no Listen, there might have been others that had

(01:26:25):
things to say, but Lee Bailey. I liked Lee Bailey.
He was a good, good buddy. He found something that
gave him clicks, yeah, the attention, and he went on
with that. And uh, it was okay up to a point.
But as I explained it, you know, I was above board,

(01:26:50):
fully transparent about the process. These were the same six women.
You know, the process of high definition at the time.
It's like a ring each time. So whereas you thought
that was you know, different people, it was the same people.

(01:27:13):
Dressed different thing. If it looked like there was forty
two billion women, it's always like pre c g I
days of you guys in Times Square exactly in that process.
But you know, there were three um and and and
and when I say three, I'm saying three as it

(01:27:34):
appeared to be. I would say Caucasian for for lack
of a better description. But they were not all like
all Anglo Saxon Caucasian, you know, No, it was. It
was a vast array of women. But that was definitely
the first time that we just saw, at least in
black videos variety, breaking out of the mold. I mean,

(01:27:56):
you guys broke speaking of breaking out the mold. O, God,
I'm about to forget. Can you please give me the
genesis of what we affectually referred to as the cameo haircut.
The cameo haircut and the red the red cut and
the John Paul was was goutier that John Paul Gotier
design that Do you still have that cup? Yes? Yes,

(01:28:22):
let me watch that so alive. But imagine when it
was the least the day of the shooting word up
and and uh, I was a guy who had this
box he just put up on the counter. I was
in line with everyone else to get whatever I was
supposed to wear, and I took an injust I was saying, man,
look at what toy she wants me to wear. Man,
And then they were like, oh man, that's great black

(01:28:43):
ron balls out, let's go for it. It wasn't day.
It wasn't the day for me to say I'm not
wearing that thing, you know, you know what I mean.
It wasn't the day we were shooting. It was the
first day of shooting. We had we had work to do.
But there was a time when all of our outfits

(01:29:05):
had cups on them. Call the car pieces is what
we call them. And Bernard Johnson, God bless him, you know,
he was the wardrobe guy in New York. I mean
at the time, you know, you always dreamed and said, man,
when we make it, we're definitely gonna go to Bernard.
And that's what happened occasionally atwhere if I feel like it,

(01:29:27):
if I don't, I won't and and and it's okay,
you know the haircut. Um. I had a friend girl,
uh named Tracy Johns. She did She's Gotta Have It
with Spike Lee the very first hit. Yeah, Tracy Camilla Johns. Yes,

(01:29:48):
that's right. That was a very close friend of mine
and she told me about this, uh, these barbers that
immigrated here from Italy on south of Houston. And I
told her to take me down and she did. And
and you know, I created this this thing that um

(01:30:10):
genesis I guess would have been Grace Jones and a
couple of other things I saw. I made it work.
And next thing, I know, people from Africa's calling and
telling me that they have the haircut and others. And
I've heard people actually lie about it, you know, some
of some people that you've always considered close. But I

(01:30:31):
figured if it was that important to to uh to
say that, be it far from me to dispute that.
I wouldn't want attention that way. Um, you know what
I mean, Guys, this is weird because I'm actually the
guy who invented that haircut. So I'm claiming it's how

(01:30:59):
long was it before were like you got a rocket
with confidence? But I mean that was definitely a statement
haircut that that was an instant street hit. But I
mean at the time, did you feel like, wait a minute,
what's you know? This is the anti Afro? Did you
did you have any idea that you were actually establishing
like the black Barbara good shot, you know what? It was? Cute?

(01:31:25):
It was I had I was tired of dreads, and
I thought it would have been less labor intensive, and
actually it was more. Yeah, it's more you know you,
you know you're you're twisting and twisting every time you
know you you're twisting without even realizing that's what you're doing.
And so I wanted to create a haircut that was

(01:31:45):
less labor intensive, and I haven't found it yet. Regardless
of what style it is, it's going to require attention
and uh, and that's just the way it is. You're
not going to escape the black hair cur What I

(01:32:05):
want to ask you is, for a lot of your contemporaries,
embracing hip hop was a hard transition to do, and
it would have been very easy for you to judge
it or look down order or be condescending. But from
the gate, not only did you embrace hip hop, but

(01:32:26):
you did in a way that didn't seem corny or
condescending or like trying to jump on a bandwagon, like
you know you rhyming on She's strange? Is any rhyming
word Up. I mean yeah, I mean word up is
a New Jack swing song. So can you just talk
about like your feelings of hip hop and how you

(01:32:48):
know you embraced it without like, because it's very unusual
for people two just be open to something and and
and not run away from it like a lot of
your contemporaries were, well, I don't know what it was
for them, but I don't think we consciously made it

(01:33:10):
an issue. Um, when it came to music, what I
enjoyed about the movement called hip hop was, uh, the
simplicity of the drum beat and the simplicity of what
was going on with the base for the most part.

(01:33:32):
And I felt that was that was a signature that
could not be denied or could not get old because
that beat was what made it what it was, and
whatever happened within that structure was always interesting. Um. You know,

(01:33:56):
funk is what it is. You can have a funky
ballad as much as you can have a funky, up
tempo thing. Um, but there's no mistake. You're gonna bob
your head if it's happening, you're gonna be in it.
And once you in it, you're in it. You know
what it is? From that point forward, So it didn't

(01:34:18):
make you feel weird when like a guy like Blue
Alice says, you know, Bobby Brown is leaving New Edition.
You know he produces record because like you know, the
songs you were doing on that record, although not it's
definitely pretty new jack swing. Like one of them joints.
He does a B box breakdown and a rap break

(01:34:39):
which again was very unusual. It was it was ahead
of its time. So like even working with Bobby Brown,
what was that experience? Like, it was cool? You know,
Bobby and I we talked about that not long ago.
You know, Uh, Bobby is going to do a lot
of changes. And that's how when I introduced Teddy to

(01:35:01):
m c A over there with Jared Busby was um,
you know, and Jared Busby and little Silas I believe,
uh huh and uh. And I felt that Teddy had
some things that would work well for for for Bobby
and the rest is history. So you made that connection

(01:35:23):
and then that studio, I'll put that studio on the map.
When I first who walked up there, they had one
room on the eighth floor and the Harrison sixteen track board,
the one in Atlanta. No, the one in New York
to sign it again. Luijn Solis who owned the place. Um,

(01:35:44):
they heard that Larry was going to displace alone if
you didn't get out SSL board in that room. And
the next thing, next thing, I know, two weeks later
there's an SSL board in there and uh, lou Blue
wanted to keep us there. It was it was crazy.

(01:36:04):
Uh yeah, Bobby Brown, project Ryan Carry yeah, all that stuff. Yeah,
we we it was at home and the next thing
I know, there's another out of another four floors of
other studios and that's when Biggie was up there, and
you know the happened at that time. You don't have

(01:36:26):
to go through everything. But now we've we've talked about
this story a lot. We know, we know that was
the most famous corner I know. Even when I go
there now because there's there's a drum dealer on like
the spit Forwar where I get a lot of my
vintage drums from. Really yeah, there's a there's a cat

(01:36:47):
up there that has like a drum shop up there,
So I still go there occasionally. There is one question
I do want to know, you know, to have such
a crowded space or at least in the time that
you were there. I mean, now, don't you know my
band is kind of like one of the one of
the last black bands with a major record deal still,

(01:37:09):
but just in general, what bands did you respect? Like
when they were on stage you're like, oh man, they're
kicking ass, or like earthing a fire con function I
love even today? Um? Or who didn't you like I'm

(01:37:34):
asking them full force questions even tell you my pet peeves.
You know some of these guys, you know they would
run out and under shaky circumstances, go someplace and get
the owned the name of the group they've been working
with for a long time, and all of a sudden
they own this name. And because they own this name,

(01:37:56):
now I tell him that in the Diamond brought you
a couple of calls. But but how about the relationship
you had and what you all did together to make
hit music? That should be the focus. Okay, uh, not this,
I want the name now, Larry, So what okay uh

(01:38:19):
that doesn't seem to be doing a life for you? Um?
And what native work was? The apparatus, chemistry, the setup
that you have before you should be running to preserve
that and working along that context because that's what worked
for you. Oh yeah, I want to ask about before

(01:38:42):
we go our senior hall doing Yeah, that was that
was real. That was fun. That was the person video
I shot that Uh that had you know, did you sound?
Actually real sound and dialogue and you know I was
in Japan and he called and asked if I would

(01:39:02):
do He's a chunky a and it was. It was strange.
The guy that shot Michael Jackson's thriller, Um was it
John Landis? Yes, but he had an a D to um. Anyway,
a lot of the crew came from that body of work.

(01:39:28):
They were not necessarily the most cooperative guys in the world.
You know, there were things being done that, you know,
like somebody would have a real thick cord coming across
the walkway and you trip over it and then you
look back and it's not there anymore. Then that's for
you to know that that was done for you. So

(01:39:51):
I avoided other stuff like that. But it was a
great shoot and I enjoyed every moment of it. The
whole Chucky A thing was is uh cineos thing. I
loved Arcineo because he was just a funny guy man
um that's and he was a dear guy. You know,
he used to invite us on the set. He'd have

(01:40:12):
a nice drum set in his office, and he had
this got chucky in his band, wasn't it. Yeah? Yeah yeah,
play with us. Also, man, I don't know how many
drummers we've been through. Jesus Christ. I want to know
what the firing process was like, Uh, that wasn't too hard,

(01:40:37):
you know, Um, well, you don't mince words. I guess no.
I mean, you know you're trying to get something done
and and it's and it's fairly simple. It's it's the
frustrating part for me is when a guy can't hear
that he's losing the pocket, he can't hear it himself.
That is frustrating for me. But I have done everything.

(01:40:59):
I think I've done everything I could do to help.
But if they don't have it, they don't have it.
Some guys just don't have it. And rocks rolling down
the hill won't make people dance at all. Said. The
simplicity of some of the hip hop fills with that's
all you're doing, then that works. That wouldn't make people

(01:41:20):
want to dance because they're familiar with that already. And uh,
and it's in time. If it's not in time, is
it music. I don't know that you might not be.
I don't know. You might have to James Brown and
find him. But yeah, and I don't know how James
did that, but they sure I had it going on.

(01:41:41):
God knows astely. I think I think I've h I
think I've an answer for finding the perfect drummer. This
is what and this is what Peter Gabriel used to do.
He used to have a drummer for studio drummers. At
least he would have a drummer come in, sit behind
the drum kit and just tell him to play a

(01:42:01):
song for like five minutes, and then one by one
he would take a piece away, and to the point
where he even took the high hats away. Like Peter
Gabriel hated the sound of high hats and it forced
when you're stuck with just the bare minimums, then you're
forced to just concentrate on the pocket because you have

(01:42:22):
nothing else to deal with. Which I know you know
the Knights that I saw you guys, and I saw
you guys doing the John Blackwell era. I almost feel
like because cats always ask like, yo, man, how can
I get cats to stay in the pocket? And my
first answer is you gotta take all their drums away,
the snare, high hat kick start there, the basic minimum.

(01:42:44):
And that's I feel like that's the answer. Cats gotta
get back and uh, you gotta it forces them to
stay in the pocket. You gotta take the toys away
it they do good rewarding with the high hat, you
know what I'm saying. How about that? But man, well,

(01:43:08):
how did you develop your your your pocket? When? When?
When did that happen? When did you notice that you
had a pocket? Had to have that pocket to play
the thing. The thing is is that you know, growing
up right, you know, hip hop and I we're of
of sort of the synergy together where not only am

(01:43:34):
I studying uh drum brakes that hip hopers a sampling,
but like I grew up with those records and my
father's record collection. You know, he had like three four
thousand records in his collection. So I would notice that
when cats wanted to to freestyle at my high school,
if I would recreate those same breaks that they heard

(01:43:55):
in rap songs, that's when they would start to dance.
And you know, and to me, it wasn't about drum fields.
It's finding the perfect four bars, and people don't trust
the process of less is more, and you know, I
felt like my thing was the less you do. Yeah,

(01:44:22):
and you know, but it also it also comes with time.
And that's the thing. Like a lot of times, especially
with black bands, when I was asking you earlier about
where did you practice? Oftentimes like church is the only
environment that they get to play, and sometimes you gotta
do everything but the kitchen sink to keep your position

(01:44:43):
because there's fourteen drummers in church waiting to replace you.
And more than that, I just I grew up with
a band leader father that would look back at you
and find you fifty dollars if you messed up, So
I kept the pocket, Brother black Man, thank you so much,
Thank you man. I appreciate this. Um. Yeah on behalf

(01:45:06):
of Layah, please get well and Sugar Steve, that was
a that was a great interview. Thank you Mr Blackman
for your time and all that information that was amazing,
and thank you for mentioning all the engineers also that
you worked with a third time. Ye, thank you very much.
One on behalf of of Fontigelo and Layah and I'm

(01:45:28):
paid Bill and Sucka, Steve and myself, Quest Love and
the great Immortal Larry Blackman and all the members of
Cameo and the drummers. This is uh Quest Love s
all right, We'll see you on the next round. Thank you,
all right, bye bye. What's Love Supreme is a production

(01:45:57):
my Heart Radio. But more podcasts from my heart Radio,
visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
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