Questlove Supreme: Larry Blackmon of Cameo

Larry Blackmon has carried funk music across generations. He tells Questlove Supreme about his role as a visionary, piloting Cameo's transition from the '70s into the '80s, and connecting Bobby Brown and Teddy Riley.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
West Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hey what's up y'all? This is uh West Love Supreme.
It's kind of awesome. I've been knocking out bucket list
after bucket list of all the drummers that have influenced
my life.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Time out.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Let me say what's up to the team Supreme? Startists, Sugar.
See where you at right now? Brouh, he's in the elevator. Wait,
you're at your apartment already?

Speaker 3 (00:31):
Yes, sir, A little walking down?

Speaker 2 (00:34):
You ran you ran home? No, I briskly. I think
you lived to New York City, locks away from where
we work, So you're you're a speed walker then?

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Anyway, Uh fan tickelo, what's going on?

Speaker 3 (00:50):
Bro?

Speaker 4 (00:50):
I'm good man, I'm cool man, Uh Fran send him
on up for likeya, man. I hope she gets better.
She hurt her leg today, so that's right, but yeah, hope,
hope you get well.

Speaker 3 (01:02):
Work wife.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
We're praying for you, Yeah we are.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
We're playing for you.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
I'll say that our guest today is well.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
I feel like all of our guests on Quest Love
suprem a legendary, but our guest is definitely a legendary.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Trendsetter U in both music and fashion.

Speaker 4 (01:21):
Yes, the rid cod piece.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
We cannot state that enough.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
I'll say that, you know, once behind the driver's seat
of I think at its most maybe fourteen piece Funcatorium
called Cameo. And you know, I'm dying to know how
per Diem was handled back in the day. But you know,
haven't been of age to witness this band and their

(01:48):
first incarnation as a fourteen piece.

Speaker 3 (01:50):
I got.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
I got to say that these brothers definitely took entertainment
like to the next level. Their their live show had
to be seen to be believed it. If you can,
there's there's a clip of them, or there's a show
he used to watch as a kid called Don Kirshner's
Rock Concert. And you know, the first incarnation. For those

(02:11):
of you that remember when Cameo just wasn't a quartet
or or a you know, or a trio, that's that's
one for the history books.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
But I would like to note.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
That while many of the bands that were you know,
from the sixties and the seventies, they kind of found
the transition to the eighties a little difficult to make.
And our guest today and his band of brothers not
only found kind of a way to coexist with a

(02:44):
new art form that was really much going to eclipse
Black culture in general, and of course I'm talking about
hip hop.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
I will say that our guest today probably.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
Pioneered what we know is New Jack Swing basically by
by embracing a hip hop attitude. You know, clearly like
a year or two before Shakas I Feel for You,
three years before Teddy Riley sort of figured out the
magic combination net connect with Jimmy and Terry. Shout out

(03:15):
to Jimmy and Terry. Of course, you know, we discussed
what's control of the first New Jack Swing album, like
the idea of hard drums and soul music. But I'll
say for many you know, of those albums in the
eighties like She's Strange, Single Life, and especially the Timeless
and Still you know gets much play today, like songs

(03:39):
like you know, word Up and Candy, I will say
that this band has gotten to go places that allow
their contemporaries like the Commodorees, the Ohio Players, the OJ's,
the Barks Mandrell named them, really wasn't able to make
that transition, and we're just honored. I again, thank God
for DMS shot my shot, and it happened, And ladies

(04:04):
and gentlemen, welcome to Quest of Supreme, the One and
only Larry Oh Black men down there a cameo.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
That's pretty good question. I appreciate you having me on, man,
it's a pleasure.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
I appreciate you, you know, making making this happen. Where
are you residing right now? Where are you talking to
me from.

Speaker 3 (04:26):
At the moment, I'm talking to you in a place
called Atlanta, Georgia?

Speaker 1 (04:31):
Hey, so you still reside in the A?

Speaker 2 (04:33):
All right?

Speaker 3 (04:34):
No, no, no, I reside in Henderson, Nevada. Okay, Vegas,
but for for other family reasons. And I've been here
off and on for for a minute. And uh, as
you know, New York is my home. No matter where.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
I am, I feel.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
I'm zipping a across here and there. Man, you know
how we do it, you know. And I happened to
really enjoy that June teen celebration. It was singing them, man,
I saw you, and you know you're one with a
few drummers that respect the pocket, because without that, it's nothing.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
You taught me well, man, Yeah, that's.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
Funny man that you're from Philly, because that's when I
really started. I went to Edison. There I heard yeah, yeah, yeah,
So I guess you know a little bit more about
me than I know about myself.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
But I'm not just I'm not just a you know.
I knew Candy and I knew you were a red
Jack Strap, I knew Cameo. Man, I've read interviews and
not you know, for me as a professional, this is
thirty years in the making. Like the fact that we
haven't crossed paths yet to me is crazy, but it is.

(06:00):
I know a lot about you because you have so
much history, man, I might as well. I got immediately
dive in. Can you tell me in your life? What
was your first musical memory?

Speaker 3 (06:11):
My first musical memory, Yes, in your life. I was
about five years old and my aunt was staying with
us in New York. She was from Augusta, Georgia, mother's sister,
and she always talked about the Apollo and she took

(06:32):
me to my first show there. So my first musical
memory was I guess being about two rolls back from
the stage and observing Sam Cook. That was first musical memories.
And then she tells me the story about after leaving there,

(06:54):
I broke away from her running down the street and
almost ran across Seventh Avenue and came close to being
met by a greyhound bus. And she didn't think it
was that funny, but she said I would laugh and
let her catch up with me and then break away

(07:16):
and run that much more. And that had nothing to
do with music. But being that my first musical experience
was there, I was like, and then after becoming old
enough to make it there myself, I used to play
He'll keep from church and catch the Maynes on Sunday
four years.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
Okay, so do me a favor because this is like
a rabbit hole show where we nerd out on information
like that, could you please walk me through like a
typical day where you go to the Apollo? Like how
much did it cost? Like where would you sit? The
acts that played? Like can you walk us through a

(07:59):
typical hollow? What year are you talking around? Is this
the sixties? Seventies?

Speaker 3 (08:04):
Oh my god, this had to be the sixties. Okay,
A typical day was you know, parents would give us
these envelopes. We were members of the Union Baptist Church
on one hundred and forty fifth between seventh and eighth. Okay,

(08:24):
we would go to church. I would take my sister,
she was about five years younger than me, and we'd
go and we'd wait until the offering time, which we
would take the envelopes and put it in plate. And
after the plate went around and everything, there was something
else that happened. They would play music and do something.
But I would give her the signal and then we'd

(08:46):
meet in the back of the church if she wasn't
sitting with me, and then I would take her across
the street to my cousin's house, leave her and take
the eighth Avenue bus to one hundred and twenty fifth
Street and go up to the Apollo. But anyway, they
had mad names. On Sunday, there were two shows on Sunday,
and I would catch the earlier show, and my seat

(09:09):
was if you're on the stage, you look to the
left and the first balcony right there, that was my seat. Okay,
it didn't have my name on it, and strangely enough,
I was never challenged about where I sat, and that
went on for years. I've seen every lake great performer

(09:33):
of color, I mean, everyone from Okay, Sam Cook, Jackie Wilson,
Flip Wilson, of course, James Brown, I mean, and the
lines went around the corner in both directions all the
way to the rear of the theater. Became acquainted with

(09:56):
acquainted with a couple of the massive ceremonies. Goodness names,
I can't think of some of the names right away,
but I don't think and I've seen everybody, Ray, Charles,
b B. King, Benny King, Joe Text.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
For you, who was the act that really grabbed you
the most, like when you saw them? Like for you,
is it just like on board, let me go see
what's at the Apollo? Or you know, was the music
calling to you or was it just something to do
on a Sunday?

Speaker 3 (10:32):
I did that. I was, I was. I was totally
captivated by everything that happened. And I don't know if
you have any memories of the Apollo, but they used
to show a movie before the live acts. It just
it just grabbed me. I mean every Sunday that's something

(10:54):
I did. Like Clockwork wasn't discussed. Didn't feel if I
had to. I just had to see whoever was there.
The one show I did not see was the jewel
Box review. Didn't even know what it was until some
years later. You know, I never questioned that, but man

(11:15):
I was there, and you know, turned into friendships with
five stair steps with Kenny and Clarence and family, and man,
I mean I remember times when the Jackson five were there,
when Michael was running around back stage, up and down
the stairs and Jermaine you know, you know, if you

(11:39):
know Jermaine, you know he was the protector and you know,
just to get to know those guys on a one
on one basis was was. I enjoyed that in a
great deal.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
So you would you were just allowed lee way like
throughout the theater or just the.

Speaker 3 (11:57):
More the more people noticed me. I was allowed to
enjoy what I enjoyed doing, and that was you know,
it was a weird thing. I cannot even remember how
certain things turned into friendships, but I did that. That

(12:18):
happened a lot.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
At the Apollo. How many of these shows would occur
a day? Is it just one long concurrent show from
like what a typical show just be like a two
hour experience and then they get rid of people and
then you come back, or yes.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
It was like that, I believe at one time. I
understand there were several shows a day, Okay, prior to
my attending, but I would remember at least two shows,
and they would add a show according to whatever was
going on. I watched the documentary on HBO, and a

(12:56):
lot of it. I remembered some of the acts that
were there prior to my going. I heard a lot
of things. And then Amateur Night I believe it was
on Wednesday, and that was a guest within itself. It
was apollo to me, was a finishing school, if you

(13:20):
want to call it that. But that's where I really
cut my teeth. I remember George Clinton Parliament before it
became Funker Delicment. I remember the first show when it
became that, And of course George was wild, as it
would always to be over the years. But there was

(13:41):
a group called Flamingos that had a song called Funky Broadway,
and that was the group that, as far as drumas
were concerned, that turned me out. That solo end of
Funky Broadway was the solo you had to play if

(14:04):
you were wait not dyk in the Blazers, Dyke in
the Blazers, And there was was an called Dyking. The
Blazers was one thing, but the Flamingos it was called
the Battle of the Bands. Groups from the Manhattan's Parliament's

(14:25):
Parliament and a lot of other acts.

Speaker 2 (14:28):
Can I something the incarnation of the parliaments that you saw?
Have you has Funkadelic the sort of the rock version
of the p funk organization. Have they ever played the Apollo?

Speaker 3 (14:42):
Oh? Yes? Indeed?

Speaker 2 (14:44):
Were they well received or were they a little bit
too wild for that audience?

Speaker 3 (14:49):
Strangely enough, they were well received. Uh. And they were
using I believe the amplifiers were called. I forgot what
they called their They the dan amplifies lit up.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (15:04):
It was Eddie Hazel, Yes, oh man, okay. He was
louder than I've heard anything on that stage at the
at the Apollo, and strangely enough, audience enjoyed it. I
never understood that. And on that particular show was on
the second balcony at the top right. I think it

(15:26):
was about fourteen years old at the time, and it
was it was for me, It was apropos for the time.
It was well received because it was unlike anything we'd
ever heard before or seen before. We were all aware

(15:47):
of the new music coming because he still was nashing
young sly you know, and his members Larry Grant and
you know. It went from there to I forget what
it was called.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
Like Graham's Graham Central six.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
Yes, and man, that whole transition was then it was
quite enjoyable. And the Chambers brothers you know about them.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
So psychedelic, psychedelic black rock that played well with the
Apollo audience.

Speaker 3 (16:20):
Yes, indeed it did. Wow.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
You know for me, Well, tell me, like did you
come from a musical family or like how how did
music enter your life as far as like this is
your calling.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
No musical family members at all. It started with the
drum and bugle car. There was a military organization called
the Junior Guard and it was it was located at
the three hundred and sixty ninth Armory on one hundred
and forty second Street, right down the block from where

(17:00):
the world famous Cotton Club was located. Okay, but at
that time Conton Club had been torn down and they
had some other was it minis minicent organization who had
been known for that, you know, a fierce German bugle corps.
I mean they were about the best uh in Haarlem

(17:22):
at that time. And three hundred and ninth Armory was
where this organization that was modeled after the army. If
you remember, Hitler had a youth organization. Oh and I

(17:43):
you know, didn't have a historic record about how this happened.
But they had a junior called a junior Guard. And
I just noticed in America a lot of the Gestapo
habit habits were used by our FBI. The head of

(18:07):
the FBI, Jaker Goohog, So I noticed, you know, and
they dressed it differently and brought it in a different way.
But they used a lot of what they saw work
in Germany, okay, with with Hitler's business, and I figured

(18:30):
that had something to do with this, uh, how this
organization came together. They saw what worked, and they tried
different things, and the government paid for this organization, and
so joined it at an early age, around twelve, and uh,

(18:52):
you know, went up and ranked to uh master sergeant.
But what I loved about it was the organization, the
things you learned. You couldn't learn these things in anyplace else,
the typical of our armed services. And then at one
point they started a drum and bugle corps. All right,

(19:12):
And at this point I'm approaching junior high school and
from there and then going to junior high school, I
immediately applied for the orchestra and I played drums first year,
baritone baseball after the second year, third year, went back

(19:33):
to drums, and that's where my musical career started. Dagona
Blazers came out with Funky Broadway the Flamingos did. It
was something that they did, they apolloed I never seemed
done before. But the beat that the guy used was
similar to that of Funky Broadway, okay, and they had

(19:59):
a move that and with it, but it was it
just it just totally took me someplace I hadn't been previously.
As soon as they got home, I started doing that, okay.
And then we started an all acoustic band in school drums, trombone, baritone,

(20:20):
tennis sacks and there was another person who floated in
and out. But we played for the assembly and it
came off and people wanted to hear us play. So
occasionally we would play at the one hundred and sixty

(20:41):
audobone audubonn Ballroom where, yeah, it was across the street
from a hospital I had attended with a thick file,
Presbyterian Medical Center, and so I remember those times well.
But from there it went to an electric band, and

(21:06):
that band wound up being cameos. Some years later quite
a few.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
Actually, how did you wind up in Philadelphia? Because when
did you go to Edison?

Speaker 3 (21:21):
Oh? Man, God, I went to Edison for one year.
I I was My grandmother lived in Philadelphia. The family
was from Georgia, Thompson, Georgia and then Augusta, Georgia, and
then they spread out from there. And mother had seven sisters.

(21:44):
She was the oldest, and most of them moved to
Philadelphia with Grandma so and she was an avid church gooer.
So it's just like the net there in Philly, which

(22:05):
was yet to be done. And I understand, and it's
supposed to be phenomenal inside. I haven't seen it since.
But that was the place that we would go at
least four nights a week. Church was mandatory. You didn't
get to avoid it. And uh so that's how the

(22:26):
whole Philly thing happened. And we we were in an
area between Norris and Diamond. Yeah, North Philly, you know
r F.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
That's how Jill Scott says, n O r F North Philly.

Speaker 3 (22:46):
Okay, you were from West Yes, yes, I have a
lot of relatives there too. I didn't even know what
West Philly was. I knew where the Greyhound bus station.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
Was did you like it too much as a kid?
Or was New York more like? Was New York too hip?
Was Philly like a downgrade for you when you came or.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
No, I wouldn't call it a downgrade. I'd say that
there was a large gap between culture and you know,
it was just very different. You know, as I remember,
there was a lot of a lot of violence going
on in Philly, and the older you got, the more

(23:34):
you understood what was going on, but never did really
understand why.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
So how did you because because of the gang culture,
especially back then, how did you avoid that? Or is
it just the unspoken thing of like if gang leaders
knew that you had some sort of talent or you
could get out, they just left you alone.

Speaker 3 (23:55):
I really don't think it mattered to them. I don't
know if they knew or not. But I know we
lived in between to Norris Street and Diamond Street, and
you would probably know more about that than I know.
That's where we were and they were talking about I mean,
I couldn't believe they were actually talking about drafting people

(24:20):
into certain gangs. We were the guys that did not
go for that. We avoided that. I like the plague,
I see, and that's how we avoided it period. You know,
they had I'm sure they had their things to do,
whatever that was. But as I said, you know, my

(24:45):
grandmother was an avid church bower, and that wasn't part
of the agenda, I feel you.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
So here's the question I have.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
You know, for most of the Funk legacy, most of
them get their start in the Midwest. And probably one
of the key components of starting in the Midwest is
that families move out there. There's industry. You know, they
get factory jobs, good paying factory jobs, and they live
in these houses that either have wreck rooms or dens

(25:18):
or garages, of which you know, with that extra curriculum money,
you buy instruments. But how are bands able to form
and living in a cosmopolitan city in which you know,
the average black family lives in an apartment or you know,
Philadelphia is kind of known for its small house structure.

(25:42):
So I know when I was, you know, coming up,
I mean, my neighbors kind of liked me, so they
were willing to put up with the noise. It was
like it was like I was I was Calvin for McDonald's,
Like I'll leave a mirror alone because he's going to
be something one day. So but you know, the walls
were really thin and Philly, I didn't live in a
place where you had unless you lived in Queens or
something like that. But like, how when you start a band,

(26:07):
how would you where would you guys rehearse or be
allowed to make noise to even see if you have it?

Speaker 3 (26:13):
Everything sort of developed from school, okay. And in that
area there was an apartment or complex called the Bridge Apartments.
It was on the other side of the Washington Bridge,
and they had these rooms when you went into the

(26:36):
building to the right or left that were just rooms
with space. And as you said, people like you. They
see that you're trying to do something different, and somehow
they let us use these rooms and we were rehearse there.
It was difficult. I grew up in the projects and

(26:59):
everyone knew who was playing drums when it you know,
reverbed off the walls on that on that block, we
didn't have a lot of different musicians, but the ones
that I mean, you knew of them because you could
hear them. So uh yeah, I'm sure I annoyed quite
a few people right in a couple of buildings. But

(27:22):
for some reason, one ever came to the apartment to say,
could you bring it down a little bit? I'm sure
a lot of a lot wanted to. They felt get
guilty about someone who was trying to play music. I
would play with the stereo, of course, and James Brown
was our pocket master, and you just had to have

(27:47):
that that swing, you know. I learned early on if
a person could not dance to what you were playing,
it didn't make sense. And then when you started recording,
that was a whole different, a whole different experience. I
would use the click track as a guide because not

(28:10):
listening to the beat as much as it allowed me
to relax inside the pocket, that was what was happening.
I was talking to D'Angelo once and he was telling
me about you, you know, you playing with him and
uh and I said, man, I mean he he's happening.

(28:36):
And he went into a whole thing about how well
Prince was saying about this that or the other. You know,
Prince was a great guy, man. I I as aloof
as he might have been. You know, we had good conversations.
They were never long.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
I feely, Yeah, yeah, I forgot you.

Speaker 2 (28:56):
You brought John Blackwell to him yeah, yeah, agreed, the
great great John Blackwell.

Speaker 3 (29:02):
A couple of people before him. The Cameo was the
farm team for Prince.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
Yes, yes, yes, indeed.

Speaker 4 (29:11):
Vocal Larry was regarding your early days and Drummond you
were playing on. You had a chance to work with
Black Ivory, and I want to know what if you
remember what songs you played on and if you remember
anything about working with Leroy Burgess.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
He's another kind of hero of ours. Yeah. I like
Lee Roight Leo. Leroy lived in the same project that
I lived then there and Lero was cool. I worked
with Patrick Adams mainly. Patrick was the.

Speaker 1 (29:44):
Late Patrick Adams.

Speaker 4 (29:45):
He just he just passed, Yeah, just passed.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
And I played you and I have an understanding. I
believe that's you and you and I. Yes, that's the
one yo.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
Wait, how did you know that, fante, because I didn't
even know that.

Speaker 4 (30:05):
Yeah, it was you know, I have informants, but but no, man, Wow,
he's only Okay, that's dope.

Speaker 3 (30:13):
That's dope. Yes, uh huh it was. Patrick was a
phenomenal guy. Man. He played like six or seven instruments
and we would start off on the keyboard and the drums.
As I started and I played goodness, I must have
recorded for four different tracks, two of which you know

(30:38):
don't turn around and that You and I.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
Mm hmmm, whoa, that's crazy. I know you played on
You and I. Damn okay, that's a classic.

Speaker 4 (30:49):
Your first band, East Coast with Gwyn Guthrie. Yeah, talking
about how did that come together?

Speaker 3 (30:55):
Well, we played at the Cheetah of great Dale. She
was with a group called the Matchmakers. I believe they
were from East Orange and we would see each other
a lot. So when I was about to form the
first unit that turned in the cameo, I asked her

(31:17):
she was interested in joining a band playing all originals
and of course that was a dream back then and
East Coase we played in Long Island a great deal
and whenever we could get we could get work. We
played in Quebec, a place called tour Vieir, which was

(31:43):
about our Montreal. We were up there for a while.
That was That was the closest thing to a residency
that I can remember. But Gwyn was a very talented
you know how talented she is. She was phenomenal. Man.
I loved working with Gwen and her and and Uh

(32:06):
a trombone player connected uh. And they wrote. As a
matter of fact, then that Benny Ashburn, the Commodore's manager. Yes,
he was living in Lenox Terrace at the time. We
had a residency at Smalls Paradise. Yes, yes, I believe.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
I believe that Robert de Niro now owns that club
and has kept it running.

Speaker 3 (32:34):
Oh really yeah yeah, m hm.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
He he hooked it up and kind of refurbished it.

Speaker 3 (32:42):
Oh okay, I know of a patient in Philadelphia that
he did the same same thing, but I believe that
was more of an after our place hood spots. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
he's uh yeah, you know, we we'd story about Robert

(33:06):
and I are staying at at that that hotel in
Hollywood where where Blushi was found.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
Damn, I used to stay there, yeah of course yeah,
uh and uh, Rick and I was staying there.

Speaker 3 (33:28):
Well, we were there for other reasons, but that's how
I met Eddie. As a matter of fact, Rick introduced
me to him, and then I, uh, I produced his
second album. I believe.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
The one after how could it be? The one after
would put Your Mouth on Me? Yeah, the one with
that song on it?

Speaker 1 (33:49):
Yeah, okay, Tom was the was the hotel.

Speaker 3 (33:54):
Mama that's right. Yeah, and you know Rick had to
get the room that they found John Belucian.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
You know what, everyone is obsessed with that Bungalow number.
Everyone's obsessed with it.

Speaker 3 (34:09):
That's where Dan, Aaron and I met. We would always
meet in the garage coming to go here Hunter at
the time and who I recognizing. But that wasn't it
wasn't that kind of thing. We were talking about typical things.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, I know, he honorary brother man.

Speaker 3 (34:28):
He's he's a real guy already.

Speaker 5 (34:38):
Already already, so even before the crafting of the group,
like who else was just around the scene in that
period in the early seventies, mid seventies, before Cameo started.

Speaker 3 (34:53):
There was a person that's no longer with us. He's
a co writer on that You and I I have
an understanding By the Moments, which was a big song.
His name was Tyrone Johnson, saxophone player. He was absolutely genius.
I've learned. I learned so much from those cats and

(35:15):
here I am, you know, goodness gracious about nineteen at
the time. As a matter of fact, the group I
was working with was being managed by Jeans Red at
the time, who was the producer for cooling the game, right.
So George and I have known each other a long
time and he's always been the same guy, punky George. Yes, man, Okay,

(35:42):
he's a good brother. It'sday that could go past, or
birthday that he wouldn't send, you know, a happy birthday.
And they were playing at the Apollo, so as you
can see, you know, being affiliated with those guys, those
related ships lasted the longest. The real musicians too. It

(36:05):
mattered to us back then, you know, about every everything
we were doing. And Tarry Rone taught Ronald had the
circular breathe and we just played with with cool And
then how long ago was that son before? Yeah, before

(36:25):
the pandemic? Okay, okay, yeah, at the Mohegan Son, I
believe it was, yeah, and sore before I got out
of the dressing room, Ronald ran in and uh a
couple of the guys, I mean, we reminisced about those times.
It was. It was very special. Let me say that you're.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
Speaking of brother byan uh there saxophone player who passed
away through the pandemic. One of one of my main
regrets is not interviewing him.

Speaker 3 (36:57):
Man.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
He you know, he had so much knowledge and his
story in his work. Yeah, he was, So can you
tell me the story that well, not only that leads
up to you forming cameo, but how you caught the
attention of Cecil Holmes and and Neil Bougart on Castle

(37:18):
Blink of Chocolate City.

Speaker 3 (37:20):
Okay, Well, at the time it was New York City
Players as we call we call ourselves, and we played
East Coast, the Chilling Circuit behind people like the Ohio Players,
George Benton and and others, you know, Rochester, Buffalo, Toronto, Michigan.

(37:44):
Uh you know. Anyway, there was a club in New York.
I had passed this place millions of times, didn't know
what it was. It was called Better Days. And the
guy that handled our administration at the time, this is
one of his haunts. And we wound up playing there
on Mondays. We would play you know, the upstate New

(38:06):
York region and circle back to New York. We would
get back I think Sunday, and we played Mondays there
at that place. And there was a guy who was
a songwriter and they wanted me to produce this song
he wrote called find My Way. It was during the
end of the disco era, so we recorded it and

(38:31):
do one of our songs. On the other side, Neil
Bogart was crazy about the song. We did a single
deal with Casa Blanca. You know, that was after the
Booter thing with Neil. Neil didn't even know we were black,

(38:51):
and yeah, it was a single deal and Neil promoted
this song and did as much as he could for
you know, any song, but he was just crazy about it.
When I guess they found out we were black. Then
it became a part of Cecil Homes Chocolate City label. Anyway,

(39:17):
so after I mean after, I mean he couldn't do
any more for that song, but I mean we put
our hearts into it and did the work. But I
asked he sort of come listen to our original material.
And then we rented si R over there in fifty
second Street, and Shecill came to hear and we played

(39:43):
Rigamortis Funk Funk, the songs we were working with at
the time. So after rehearsal was over, the presentation pretty
much was over. I asked him if if he thought
we could do something, and he said, I think so.
Then then an offer was made for an album deal,

(40:07):
and so every album we recorded after that was gold.
Riga Mortis was the first single. I happened to be
working on Wall Street at this haberdasherie, and I don't
know if you guys remember, but Frankie on BLS had

(40:28):
the slots called the World Premiere, and I forget what
the other ones were, but I noticed whenever it was
a world premiere song debuted, it became a hit. Maybe
it was because it was played twelve times a day,
but anyway, I was fitting a customer and heard the

(40:51):
World Premiere and then our song came on.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
I have the Frankie Crocker World Premiere dropped a word.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
I collect, you know as as a so called a story,
and I often beg and buck people for like old
school radio drops from back in the day.

Speaker 3 (41:08):
So yeah, yeah, Well, when that came on, I knew
that what Riga Mortis was going to be a hit.
I had never heard, I mean, everybody else Barry White. Oh,
I can't remember all of this, all of the world
premiers at all, but man, I dare you to find

(41:29):
one that did not become ahead whatever. For whatever reason,
Rigam Martins did forty thousand copies in two weeks. And
we were off.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
At the time when you wrote Riga Mortis was you know,
a monster groove. You know the environment at the time
in nineteen seventy seven, you know p funk hatt finally
planted its flag of course.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
Earth Wind and Fire. You know, they were pretty much
the monuments.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
How where are you of what the environment was as
far as funk bands were concerned, and was it a
thing where it's like, Okay, what can we do to
stand out from the rest or make our own mark?
Because the one thing that I will say about you
guys that maybe maybe and I don't count heat Wave

(42:24):
because there even though they're from two brothers in Ohio,
I've just never seen a band like literally do everything
but the kitchen sink on stage as far as the presentation,
the dancing, the it's it's beyond just performing your song,

(42:48):
Like what what was it? What was in the drive
that drove you guys to eat and to dance that
hard and not be out of breath? Like can you
just walk us through the rehard sole aspects of what
you guys were trying to go for when you're doing this, of.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
Course you know this, that's how bad we wanted it.
We wanted to do what we felt would work. I
think Earthwuney Fire played played a a large had a
large influence on us at the time, and and surely thereafter.

(43:26):
Maurice was like a mentor. He would play or they
would playing at the Omni Omni in Atlanta and he'd
call and ask and you know, let me know where
he was. And just recently Larry Dunne was telling me, Man,
I remember seeing you even Maurice's room at three am
in the morning. Maurice was was very, very generous and

(43:53):
sharing things that I could not have known at that time.
And the political going on and enact that large and
regardless if you saw five, four or six people, you know,
there were always ten to twelve month stage. And that's
why I cut down on the photos on how many

(44:17):
people took photos, because I found in marketing that it's
easier for a fan to remember, you know, four or
five people, but if you turn the album you'll see
everyone then had something to do with you know, what
we were doing. It was a collaborative affair. It was

(44:39):
a democratic dictatorship. Okay, with the experience that I had
at the time, it was just coincidental that I couldn't
think of anyone else that possessed as much and everyone

(45:00):
was open to I had an open door policy, you know,
if you had something to share, something to give, something to,
you know, suggest I was open because I felt that,
you know, for a group, especially like Cameo, it took
everyone's sincere involvement. And you know, we didn't have room

(45:27):
for games. We had to be radio friendly. No matter
what we did, they would tell us that, well, they're
playing balance now. You know, you guys need to come
with a ballot. We come with it up tempo because
we thought that worked at New York radio and it did.
You know, the choices we made was great.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
I got one question though, yes, because this is typical
what you'll see when bands from the seventies sort of
transition to the eighties. You see that they will scale down.
My guess is for financial reasons. But how as bandleader,

(46:11):
how are you able? Like why would you have fourteen
people inside your organization?

Speaker 3 (46:21):
Like?

Speaker 1 (46:21):
And what is pay?

Speaker 3 (46:22):
Like?

Speaker 1 (46:23):
What is what is per diem?

Speaker 3 (46:24):
Like?

Speaker 1 (46:25):
What's per diem a thing? How would you guys get
to gigs?

Speaker 3 (46:29):
Like?

Speaker 1 (46:29):
Are you driving yourselves?

Speaker 2 (46:30):
Was there a tour bus back in seventy seven seventy eight?

Speaker 1 (46:34):
Did you have roadies.

Speaker 6 (46:35):
Back then you said, like one question, it's like fucking
twenty questions.

Speaker 3 (46:42):
You might have seen fourteen, but trust me, fourteen was
not you know, the decisions were made by the gentleman
you're speaking to right now. I had a responsibility and
if it didn't work, if someone else had better way
of approaching it, I was open to that. It wasn't

(47:05):
you know, as long as it was working, it was working.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
But isn't it also like managing personalities and Jedi mind trix,
who's late to the bus, who has an attitude?

Speaker 1 (47:18):
Who's talking to this girl?

Speaker 3 (47:20):
We didn't have that. We were serious, We were deadly serious.
It wasn't you know, we didn't have that problem. I
think everyone appreciated the fact that we had built something
that was hard to keep together, and we tried to
avoid that nonsense as much as we could. Yeah, and

(47:41):
then when we talk about the seventies, our thing happened
closer to the end of the seventies. We did have
a bus. We bought a used Greyhound bus at first,
and then we bought a bus to Muhammad Ali sold
to us or his representatives, and it worked for several years.

(48:05):
I was in Jet magazine how about that? And in
Life magazine to the center page, we took a photo
for publicity reasons. But you know, I enjoyed working with
you know, talented cats and it was fun as well
because I couldn't think of anything else that I would

(48:26):
want to do. I did attend july On for almost
two years started happening, and I just didn't see any
reason whatsoever that I should stay at that school. When
hearing things like, you know, no one contributed anything to

(48:46):
contemporary music worthwhile since the Beatles, I said, Okay, I
got you. Well, let me let me get ready for
us to put our gigs together. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
So when working on like the Cardiac Dress record, which
you know is the first album you produced, it were
you nervous as a producer? Did you?

Speaker 1 (49:12):
Or was it just like a learning curve?

Speaker 3 (49:16):
No I produced before Cameo was the group?

Speaker 2 (49:20):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (49:21):
I worked a great deal and producing and taught self
taught engineer. Okay. You know I had relationships. I played
with the group Top Shelf. As a matter of fact,
that's how I met Patrick. Okay, the group Top Shelf,

(49:43):
I believe they had a regional head called give it Up.
Just remember that or not, but I haven't, you know,
I had.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
I knew people like Brendan and Tablations right on the
tip of my tongue, yeah, right.

Speaker 3 (49:57):
Right, right right, cool people and running to them in
Hollywood and other places. Okay, you know, I was truly
aside from a student of music, and and you know,
I've had some some moments, man, that were just unforgettable.

(50:20):
And what you were always wanted was to be a
part of black culture. You wanted to be remembered as
being a part of that. And I think we achieved that.
And it takes a while before you realize what you
have done, and you know that brings about, you know,

(50:44):
other challenges and other things to do. But you find
that you understand your music in a different way. And
and it wasn't about going in a curt okay, it
was about you know, achieving goals and and you you're

(51:07):
serious about it. And when I discovered the Mitchell Beachi
X eight fifty, my whole world changed. Then. As far
as production is concerned, that was a hell of machine.
I can tell you that that thing made silence sound good.
So you were a tech head, well somewhat, I won't

(51:29):
say a total tech head, but what I did know
and understand, you know, and then I was happy to
be a part of old school ending and then the
new technology emerging. Uh. I really enjoyed that because the
things that that I know how to do with music,

(51:53):
and believe it or not, it doesn't even matter anymore
today it doesn't seem to matter as much. But I
always wanted music to sound good, and if you listen
to UH, it matters, really really it does matter.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
Okay, here's the thing. I know, I know a lot
of us have our thoughts on like this person seems
to just be phoned in from home or the thing.
The thing is though, that there are artists out there
that are doing it. I just think now that because
the gate is why it left, you know, wide open.

(52:32):
It's it's it's almost like way too much. It's saturated.
And but I'm I'm a person that likes to search
for you know, there there are some diamonds and the
roughs out there that kind of give me hope that
there's still a good future in music. It's just oftentimes,
and it's like that in history, it's like sometimes the

(52:54):
best of the crop don't necessarily.

Speaker 1 (52:59):
Get the massive exposure that someone that.

Speaker 2 (53:04):
Who is not as talented gets you know.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
Yes, that's that's always been the history of music.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
You know, like a group like the Meters, uh, you know,
unfortunately didn't get the push that they should have gotten,
you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
So yeah, it's and that was a man.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
Yeah, absolutely, Speaking of D'Angelo, I've never met a cat now.
I mean again, cameos all things to all people. And
you guys have had your your different phases and your metamorphosis.
But I for some reason, he told me, like when
he was a kid, like the cameo ballot meant more

(53:45):
to him than even Earth Wind and Fire like people
would like with with established hits whatever for him, like
why have I lost you? Or even Sparkle. A matter
of fact, he produced Sparkle for I forget the name
of that group. Uh, it's like four Brothers from It's
like right after Brown Circuit came out, D'Angelo produced a.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
Cover of Sparkle. Oh Wow, four oh. A group called
Twice Oh no Wow. It came out in like ninety
five and.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
Angie Stone and like the first time I heard Sparkle
because the thing was like even on Brown Sugar, like
those patches that he had, like you instantly knew it
was him, but for him, like your ballads meant everything.

Speaker 4 (54:36):
Yeah, I was gonna ask you about Two of Us
because that's been sample. You know what I mean by
I already sampled it to pop, you know? But yeah,
I love that song, man.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
Yes, Two of Us was a nice song, wasn't. I
knew that you had to have. If you didn't have
a banging ballad along with the tempo banger, then you
didn't have a record. We wanted to be a part
of our culture. In order to achieve that, we had

(55:07):
to achieve those those goals you had to and I
had to have a first tenor a soothing baritone, okay,
and then we you know, I consider myself a song stylist,

(55:28):
you know, unlike Luther Vandross, who we know when he
was born, he came out singing those that are fortunate
enough others who had to play the top ten to
work being a drummer or being a band trying to
have consistency. It was important for you to learn those

(55:52):
things and as a result we have, Oh and we
have other things that we learned that you make your
style okay, but I appreciate every Ohio. I mean, I
was with Sugarfoot not long before he left us, and man,

(56:12):
I mean, what could that guy do that I wouldn't like.
I don't know. You listen to some of those records, man,
and come on, you know that that shit is real? Yes,
I mean, can I tell you? Can I say anything else.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
The great lead word Browner Sugarfoot?

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Yes? Absolutely?

Speaker 3 (56:30):
Man.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
You know you know something now as you mentioned it.
What I truly admire about your approach to music in
a way that I actually think and I don't know
if this blasphemous to say, because you know, for a
lot of people they're the mount rushmore.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
But what I always loved about your.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Version of songs is how you handled what I dub
the Greek course in terms of like take a song
like attack me with you love or back and forth
where you all sing.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
So I forgot where I heard it.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
I don't know if George told me, but he's like,
if you do it as a Greek course where all
the voices are singing in the same unison, then that's
a more inclusive thing for the audience that want to
learn the lyrics and sing along with you like a
shower singer or a bathroom singer. And I always wanted
to know, was that by design?

Speaker 3 (57:35):
I call it a choral lead. Okay, that type of
vocal approach. Okay, it feels good. I don't know if
George's theory is correct. I wouldn't challenge it. I think
there's more truth to that than not. But when I

(57:57):
approach producing and production, I try to make it what
someone would like. I tried to put myself in an
audience's position and listening to this and a choral lead
or really there really is an effective technique because then

(58:19):
you can have individuals accent that approach, and you have
a chance to do things with that, with that material
that you wouldn't any other way. I try to imagine
it as a lead, and it doesn't have the same umph, okay,

(58:42):
and I would take that and play with that. With songs,
there would be no guarantee that the way you hear
a song originally would turn out to be as as
you might have imagined it to be. And I think
having that control, which is why we have the variety
we have in cameo, it couldn't be a one dimensional issue.

(59:07):
It could not be there's too much to do, too
much you can do. So when we talk about songs
and okay, what your approach to this song? How do
you think this should be? You know, what about this chorus?
How do you want that to happen? Okay? And who's
going to make the transition? Who's going to set up

(59:30):
the bridge? Okay? What are we going to do there? Man?
To me, I love my work. I could do that
and a couple of couple of lifetimes. You know a
lot to do if you truly enjoy music, and I
enjoy all types of music, and you can relate to this.

(59:52):
I'm going to mention what was the name of that
song Grove and Washington? That album? Come on, mister magic,
mister yeah, good on. George Benson. Yes, but h man,
I used to walk around with that playing that that
mister magic and uh and and and uh George Benson's material.

(01:00:18):
In New York I used to live, uh when when
I moved from my parents' home, I lived across the
street from I guess a city center on fifty fifth
Street between six and seven. And man, you'd be surprised
who you run into just walking down the street. Fred
is there? I mean Gene Kelly. When New York New

(01:00:43):
York debuted at that theater right around the corner for me,
New York, New York. Yeah, and where the studio was
quadrasnic and became known for a lot of things you
wouldn't want a studio.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Oh we know, I know about Quiet Studios, trust me.

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
But uh and Occentral Yeah, straight up. I almost signed
up my man Teddy Riley. Yeah we met there. What Yeah,
but Teddy said, Larry, if I signed with your man,
Jean tried to kill me. Wow.

Speaker 7 (01:01:24):
Wow, that's that's a true story. Ask all right, Yo,
I gotta know what was it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
For me? Like as a fan of your your your
entire canon. For me, starting with Secret Omen, something different happened.
And you know, a song like I Just want to Be.
And I know, like every cameo fan has their cameo
song that they stick to where they say, okay, like

(01:01:59):
Ricka Morton is the funkiest, or She Strange is the
punkiest or whatever. Can't But for me, I Just Want
to Be was so damn futuristic because the thing is,
I know that record came out in seventy nine, but
in my mind it sounded like for me that was

(01:02:20):
Prince's blueprint and this is way before we're talking about
new wave or the Minneapolis sound or whatever. But just
like the stacking of handclaps, the absolute gup bucket funk
of it all. How how did that song even the
fact that you guys you know, have miniature courses inside

(01:02:41):
of even the structure of that song is so weird
like it.

Speaker 3 (01:02:47):
I Just Want to Be was our first gold single,
and I probably brought them all it was it was.
It was real strange, and it was different, and that
it was meant to be. It was meant to go
against the grain of what everyone thought a head record was,

(01:03:07):
and it was about the melodic structure being accented based
on a melody that was in that you know, base range, okay,
based the lower baritone range, and you made the music
exactly as the melody was going. And the other things

(01:03:29):
we did with that developed on its own while being
created and while being recorded. I'd say having had the
good fortune to work with engineers that were frustrated about
how they were recording the same old shit, you know
what I mean, and we just had to do it differently.

(01:03:52):
Engineers like Dave Oh, I don't know if you're familiar
with him, York Man and I had no idea Jay
played bass man. He was. We were two controlled freaks.
They learned how to work and learned how to work
with each other, you know, and we did and it
turned out to be dynamite. I mean from single life,

(01:04:14):
word Up and the and the mixes thereof it was.
It was just phenomenal. Man, every oveloape to be pushed.
It was as I'm certainly a guy that was not
afraid to take that fade a where it was going
to go. I said, you know, I don't judge music
by what that needle was telling me and what that

(01:04:37):
graph is telling me. When I from then, I know
I've I've done, I've raised it too hot. You know.
That's digit feedback there that I understand. But you know
I used to get into arguments with engineers about you know,
you're at plus five I could I don't plus five plus.

(01:05:00):
It doesn't matter to me. I just want that thing.
I want I know it can sound. I want to
see where I have to back off. You know, there's
no way to know unless you go there.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
I gotta ask you, And for for a lot of
fans of of of hip hop, you'll be interested to
know I gotta ask you about brother Aaron Mills. Aaron
Mills to hip hop fans, I guess starting with stank

(01:05:34):
Odia album, basically like Aaron Mills' base became the sound
of like a lot of the Outcast's funkiest songs, starting
with like his bass work on Miss Jackson, uh and
beyond like uh, he's all over speaker box and whatnot.
But he's the base of I just want to.

Speaker 3 (01:05:54):
Be finding Aaron was. You know, we we were booked
out on a date. N CCU was booked on that.

Speaker 4 (01:06:02):
Date, North Carolina Central n CCU.

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
Yes, he's from North Carolina. Yeah, yeah, I mean I
went to Central. That's mine, that's my alma mater.

Speaker 3 (01:06:11):
Right, and Professor Bird was working with some of the Cats,
actually both groups, the Birds, yes, Blackbirds and n CCU.
So you know, we needed a bass player who could
do vocals as well and could move. So when I

(01:06:31):
saw her, and I knew that that was the that
I knew we had to try them out, and so
we contracted them and offered them to come up to
New York to to try out. We used to use
the Daily Planet there on thirty whatever street that was
on right and and we had some people that just

(01:06:55):
didn't want it, man. They were they wanted to be
in an act where it was totally different and we
could make it happen. And our approach vocally, our approach
about anything, was about being tired of the same old stuff,

(01:07:16):
you know what I mean, and we wanted to do
something different. That's what we did. And and we've used
some musicians from London. It didn't matter where they were from, man,
if they had that thing, and especially when it came
to recording and ideas that were different, it was exciting.

(01:07:38):
It was beyond beyond that.

Speaker 4 (01:07:41):
And also to want to mention Bernard Wright, who you
know recently passed, like, what was it like working with him?

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):
Man? We were talking about that that hours ago. I
still that that was hard for me too, and you know,
and I didn't know what of course, as as demids
that and someone told me he was hit by a car.

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
H oh wow.

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
But Bernard is one of those geniuses and his later
teenage years, everybody he listened to was dead, I mean,
and that fucking for Jamaica. Come on, we know what that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
Is, yes, I mean the Masterpiece.

Speaker 3 (01:08:30):
I was just contacted recently about some tribute that they're
doing to Bernard, And I'm trying to think about that
thing Bernard was. You know, there are guys you you
you've had relationships with to remind you of people like
Jimi Hendricks and and and others. They just have their

(01:08:53):
on that different on that different trajectory that like you
can't think of other people mhm, thanks with the same flavor.
Bernard is one of those guys. And I've worked with
I don't know how many keyboard players. He his spirit

(01:09:14):
was something very different. Had you ever worked with the request.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
I met Nard a few times at like you know,
occasional jam sessions and whatnot, but it never got to
work with him. Oh and really really didn't get to
nerd out on him like I wanted to, you know.
And I'm such a fan of like just that era
of Marcus Miller and the you know, the Jamaica Boys
and all that stuff. And I'm such a fan of

(01:09:39):
such a fan of that era. But We're probably gonna
have Marcus Miller on soon, so I'll get to learn
more about him. But no, definitely that he you know,
especially you could tell to me, you could tell like
the true artist three of someone I'm a hits guy.
I mean, I'm I don't. I think I'm more of
a filler guy than I'm a hits guy. Like I

(01:09:59):
feel like the true definition of an artist is based
on the album cuts and how.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
They treat that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
And for him, especially like he's just his ideas were
like way way, way beyond, way beyond his time period.
I want to skip I want to skip ahead to
the Alligated Woman album. You know, Alligated Woman is probably

(01:10:29):
one of the most curious songs of your catalog, and
at the time, like I think Blacks were trying to
figure out, like what their position was in just a
non dance music structure for that album, Like, could you
just discuss what the creative angle was, especially with that

(01:10:52):
very unusual song in your.

Speaker 3 (01:10:54):
Catalog, Freedom, that was the precipitated factor. After a while,
you start to hear, well, you've heard it all your life,
but you didn't really pay attention to it until it
pertained to you or involved you. And we were at

(01:11:14):
a place where, you know, yeah, we recorded a lot
of things and they were very good to us, but
Alligated Woman, you just wanted to Freedom to be able
to do, and surprisingly enough, it surprised the heck out
of me. It did quite well, it didn't. I mean,

(01:11:35):
I was really surprised about that. I think at the
time maybe number four or five or maybe even higher
on the R and B arts at the time. But
songs like Secrets of.

Speaker 1 (01:11:49):
Time and Flirt especially, Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:11:54):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that was that was That was
That was some funky stuff. Indeed, we didn't try to
be different as much as we challenged ourselves more or less.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
You know, I would also like to know, I know
that in eighty two, maybe it was eighty one, you
made the transition from singing vocals behind the drum set
and getting in front of the microphone. For you, how
fearg was that to you? Or you know, were you

(01:12:29):
reluctant leader?

Speaker 3 (01:12:32):
It was very foreign.

Speaker 1 (01:12:35):
How did you find a drummer that you trusted live?

Speaker 3 (01:12:38):
And we still we're still looking for that drummer We've had,
we've had, we've had them at times. It was a
real strange thing, you know, we didn't with the changes
that went on, We didn't have that person up front
that had the relationship with the audience that we wanted

(01:13:01):
for it to have. And as much as I didn't
want to, it was discussed a couple of times, and
then and then hit things like you know you gotta
you gotta come out front because you're singing these songs.
Also that we're performing and you're doing this, and the

(01:13:21):
third and man, have we had drummers, God knows, we
have tried. We had everybody with you guy.

Speaker 1 (01:13:30):
Hey, you never know, man, I would put that on
my bucket.

Speaker 3 (01:13:34):
Listen you, man, you're one of the only drummers I
know that has a steady pocket. That's for real. There
are a couple of other people we've heard. But it's
not as easy as you might think it should be.
I don't know. I haven't figured that one out yet.
I can't even put it into words, but I know

(01:13:58):
it's hard working. I am very close. I'm sitting back
down on those drums, I'll tell you that much.

Speaker 4 (01:14:10):
I was curious to know about your work with Miles Davis.
What was it like working with him kind of man
on that album.

Speaker 2 (01:14:17):
And specifically, why was he just randomly in these videos
without any context whatsoever.

Speaker 3 (01:14:26):
I met Miles when I was eight years old. At first,
Miles used to train with boxers to stay in shape,
and and my dad was in the boxing game, and
so it turns out Miles had an attorney that when

(01:14:48):
he passed the bar, he represented me for us in
a situation where the manager we had and some years
later lo and be old Peter's representing Miles Yoko, Oh no,
several different people. So and knowing that I had a

(01:15:09):
song that I had somebody played the you know, the
demo of that, I wanted Miles to hear. And he
called back that afternoon about two hours later, and uh,
I like this to this and he was writing as

(01:15:31):
an autobiography at the time with the Gentleman.

Speaker 2 (01:15:34):
With Quincy Troop.

Speaker 3 (01:15:35):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yes, And man, we had a good
time with Miles. You know, everything he had to say
meant something, And uh, man, do I missed that guy, Miles.
I enjoyed Miles a lot, very useful energy, which I
guess amounts for the musicians here playing with him. His

(01:16:02):
nephew played for us for a while too, but being
in the videos, we just invited him down. And uh,
you know, Miles was always colorful. He was the heck
of a guy, and he seemed to enjoy the female
company of the ladies.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):
Yeah, just without any context, you would look and then
it would be like Miles Davis for like two seconds,
and without the internet and without like a VCR to rewind,
it was like, wait that now that was a Miles Davis.
What would he be doing that? Like when they first
came out, I never knew that was I was like,
that's a guy that looks like Miles Davis or you know,

(01:16:42):
maybe Charlie Singleton had a cousin or something that was
Solder or something like that. Like that's what I was thinking. Oh,
I know what I want to know. At any point,
did any of you guys sort of get make the
correlation that the young lady that's saying nasty girl was

(01:17:03):
actually on the front cover of Alligator Woman.

Speaker 3 (01:17:06):
Oh yeah, we of course we knew that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:09):
Yeah, so you instantly that that was that was Vanity
on the cover of Wow. Okay indeed, because I know
she was doing before Vanity six got established, but.

Speaker 3 (01:17:19):
Right, but she was. She was just perfect for what
I say, we uh the photographer and and uh Peanut Gallery.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
Yeah, say no more, I got you.

Speaker 3 (01:17:33):
But uh, I get it. But it worked. And I
think Prince must have called her about four or five
times while we were working shooting that day.

Speaker 2 (01:17:43):
That's right. They weren't dating by then. Okay, I see.

Speaker 3 (01:17:46):
Who this was on the phone, uh, until it became
and someone said something about I think it was a
photographer at the time, and I forget his name, but
he was. He was colorful too, and I thought the
idea was great and it worked.

Speaker 2 (01:18:08):
Keep talking about establishing your own label, because I think, yeah,
slightly before she's strange. Maybe it was alligated woman or style.
You started Atlanta Artists label.

Speaker 3 (01:18:21):
It was a logo label more than a separate label
within itself. It didn't have its own distribution structure. That
was stuff. I didn't want to get into it that
particular time, and it didn't make a difference to me
at that moment, but we did well for it. It
gave us positive identity in Atlanta, and we were fortunate

(01:18:44):
enough to have some people working with us that helped
a great deal, and we were able to, you know,
get some different things done. It was all real, quite positive. Okay,
we don't want to start talking about Regulabel in the

(01:19:08):
games thereof that's that's a whole nothing. Maybe it's just
started another series.

Speaker 4 (01:19:14):
I feel hey, man, let's talk about it.

Speaker 8 (01:19:17):
Some times I feel you this is also the period
where And this is sort of across the board where
you know, the word.

Speaker 1 (01:19:28):
Crossover kind of becomes part.

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):
Of the black music vernacular as far as well, I
know that was a four letter word, but you know,
not only that, but just transitioning. You're seeing a lot
of lead singers leave their groups. In eighty two. You're
seeing a lot of groups that were once fourteen, thirteen,
twelve members whittled down to trios and whatnot. How hard

(01:19:56):
was it for you to come to the decision that, Yo, man,
we just gotta we got to pair it down a
little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:20:05):
I don't think. I don't think anybody in our act
saw it that way, yet, I have to be totally honest.
I never asked. I know that Jean Paul Goutier had
a summer line that had just been delivered to Bluingdale's,
and our wardrobe guy made us aware of it, and

(01:20:28):
he checked the sizes and found that it would work
for that concept. And as I said earlier, for identity purposes,
I think it was easier for our fans to focus
on a few people instead of a lot of people,
and I think that worked for us. I turned around,
and every other band is doing the same thing.

Speaker 2 (01:20:51):
So what made you keep Tony and Nathan and Charlie
like kind of as the core members.

Speaker 3 (01:20:58):
I don't think Charles he was there on that particular
on the on the word.

Speaker 1 (01:21:05):
Up cover, but well not word up, but he was
at least.

Speaker 3 (01:21:09):
Yeah when we paid, when we paired it down starting
with strange Alligator Woman and in style and those things. Yeah,
we we tried to keep it a little closer uh
to where we you know, we just wanted the identity
to work. And at that time you think you're making

(01:21:34):
a good decision about what works for the act. And
it did at the time.

Speaker 2 (01:21:40):
Yeah, it worked.

Speaker 3 (01:21:41):
This is a strange business. You know, when something is working,
it's working, and and I think people appreciate that until
it gets into selfish reasons, you know, and that just happens.
It's something that happens, you know, as all things. You know,

(01:22:04):
there were challenges before that we had to get over
when it was the East East Coast and and other
uh con configurations. So I you know, what happened happened.
You just had to work with it. And you know,
as easy as it was for me to be so

(01:22:28):
busy knowing what you have to do next, that I
didn't worry so much about what was going on at
the time, just being prepared for something else was you know,
maybe maybe that was an escape mechanism for me. I
don't know. I only say that because I think about

(01:22:50):
that now, But at the time I wasn't concerned about that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:54):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:22:55):
We just wanted to be good at what we did,
offer something fresh. The high definition. Advent of high definition
was the greatest thing that could have ever happened, not
only with us but every everyone else because it was
said that technique would be and everyone's home and it was,

(01:23:21):
which was which was fun. But when we did the
Candy video, that was that was phenomenal. Man, that that
that piece of work there, that that's historic.

Speaker 2 (01:23:36):
Can I ask you about that video? Okay, So for
our listeners out there, I mentioned a few times, but
like you know, for fans of black music, you really
didn't have much to go on when finding out the
information of your favorite acts, like you either stuck in
the sort of tweendom of right or magazine or the

(01:24:00):
whole or opposite of it, which was like either epiting
or jet So for a lot of like music heads
like myself, there was a sort of a radio show
called Lee Bailey's Radioscope Rascope.

Speaker 1 (01:24:12):
And you already know where I'm going with this. I
got it.

Speaker 2 (01:24:15):
So here's the thing. Everyone's laughing at this, and I
know you know where I'm going with this now, mind you.

Speaker 1 (01:24:23):
I was fifteen at the time.

Speaker 2 (01:24:25):
Now, Radioscope on weekdays was only like a three minute
kind of like a quickie news update on Serio, you know,
at least a serious journalism if you want to call
it that of your favorite groups.

Speaker 1 (01:24:42):
But I'd never.

Speaker 2 (01:24:43):
Heard a more controversial hot take like Radioscope was almost
like Black Twitter before Black Twitter thirty thirty.

Speaker 1 (01:24:52):
And you know, for me.

Speaker 2 (01:24:56):
As a fourteen fifteen year older watching you know of
our burden and like the word of video and the
candy video and all that stuff and even like attack
me with your love with Debbie and what's his name from?

Speaker 3 (01:25:10):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:25:11):
Whether were in general hospital or whatever? Were you? How
upset were you when fans were complaining about, you know,
sort of accusing you guys of not focusing like you
you would have a wide array of women in your videos.
It was black women, it was white women, it was

(01:25:32):
brown women, Asian women, Like, were you aware of how
like discussed or discussed your videos were at the time,
like there was just a thing where it's like only
black women are allowed to be in cameo videos, and
why there's all these why all these white women and

(01:25:53):
Asian women, Like, yes, we now it's like nothing, but
it was so pioneering back then and controversial. Were you
even aware of Lee Bailey's radioscope and how like fans
were sort of just like.

Speaker 1 (01:26:07):
Hot behind the collar over this.

Speaker 3 (01:26:09):
More than I more than I wanted to be.

Speaker 1 (01:26:13):
But that's why you laugh when I said Lee Bailey, he.

Speaker 3 (01:26:17):
Didn't get any complaints from the fans. We complain, no, no, listen,
there might have been others that had things to say,
but Lee Bailey. I liked Lee Bailey. He was a good,
good buddy. He found something that gave him clicks, yeah,
the attention, and he went on with that. And it

(01:26:42):
was okay up to a point. But as I explained it,
you know, I was above board, fully transparent about the process.
These were the same six women. You know, the process
of high definition at the time, it's like air ring

(01:27:05):
each time. So whereas you thought that was you know,
different people, it was the same people dressed different. Yeah,
if we had.

Speaker 2 (01:27:18):
It looked like there was forty two billion women. This
I was like pre CGI days of you guys in Times.

Speaker 3 (01:27:23):
Square exactly in that process. But you know, there were
three and and and when I say three, I'm saying
three as it appeared to be. Uh. I would say
Caucasian for lack of a better description. But they were
not all like all Anglo Saxon Caucasian, you know, No,

(01:27:46):
it was.

Speaker 2 (01:27:46):
It was a vast array of women. But that was
definitely the first time that we just saw, at least
in black videos variety, breaking out of the mold. I mean,
you guys broke speaking of breaking out the mold. Oh god,
I'm about to forget. Can you you please give me
the genesis of what we effectually referred to as the
cameo haircut.

Speaker 4 (01:28:08):
The cameo haircut and it red the red cor and
John Paul was was is that John Paul the design
that Do.

Speaker 2 (01:28:16):
You still have that cup?

Speaker 3 (01:28:19):
Uh? Yes, yes, so let me wash that show life.
But imagine when it was to me the day of
the shooting, word up and and uh, I was you
guy had this box he just put up on the counter.
I was in line with everyone else to get whatever
I was supposed to wear, and I took it in
a dressure and I said, man, look over what Toys

(01:28:39):
wants me to wear? Man? And then they were like,
oh man, that's great, black room balls out, let's go
for it. It wasn't day. It wasn't the day for
me to say I'm not wearing that thing, you know
what I mean. It wasn't the day we were shooting.
It was our first day of shooting. We had we

(01:29:00):
had work to do. But there was a time when
all of our outfits had cups on them. Call them
cod pieces is what we call them. And Bernard Johnson,
God bless him. You know, he was the wardrobe guy
in New York. I mean at the time, you know,
you always dreamed and said, man, when we make it,

(01:29:21):
we're definitely going to go to Bernard. And that's what happened.
Occasionally aware it if I feel like it, If I don't,
I won't and and and it's okay. You know the haircut.
I had a friend girl, uh named Tracy Johns. She
did She's got to have it with Spike Lee the

(01:29:44):
very first hit.

Speaker 1 (01:29:45):
Oh yeah, Tracy Camilla John's.

Speaker 3 (01:29:47):
Yes, Yes, that's right. That was a very close friend
of mine, and she told me about this, uh these
barbers that immigrated here from Italy on south of Houston,
and I told her to take me down and she did.
And and you know, I created this, this thing that

(01:30:10):
genesis I guess would have been Grace Jones and a
couple of other things I saw. I made it work.
And next thing I know, people from Africa is calling
and telling me that they have the haircut and others.
And I've heard people actually lie about it, you know,
some some people that you've always considered close. But I

(01:30:31):
figured if it was that important to to to say that,
be it far from me to dispute that. I wouldn't
want attention that way. You know what I mean, Guys.

Speaker 6 (01:30:46):
This is weird because I am actually the guy who
invented that haircut. So say what you want, but I'm
claiming it.

Speaker 2 (01:30:56):
That's how long was it before? Like you got a
rocket with confidence? But I mean that was definitely a
statement haircut that that was an instant street hit. But
I mean at the time, did you feel like, wait
a minute, what's you know? This is the anti Afro
Did you did you have any idea that you were
actually establishing like the black barbera good shot.

Speaker 3 (01:31:23):
You know what? It was cute, it was I had
I was tired of dreads, and I thought it would
have been less labor intensive, and actually it was more. Yeah,
it's more yes, you know for you, you know you're
you're twisting and twisting every time. You know you're twisting
without even realizing that's what you're doing. And so I
wanted to create a haircut that was less labor intensive,

(01:31:46):
and I haven't found it yet. Regardless of what style
it is, it's going to require attention and and that's
just the way it is. You're not going to escape
the black hair Curt.

Speaker 2 (01:32:05):
What I want to ask you is, for a lot
of your contemporaries, embracing hip hop was a hard transition
to do, and it would have been very easy for
you to judge it or look down on it or
be condescending. But from the gate, not only did you
embrace hip hop, but you did in a way that

(01:32:27):
didn't seem corny or condescending or like trying to jump
on a bandwagon, like you know you rhyming on She's strange?

Speaker 1 (01:32:37):
Is any rhyming on word up?

Speaker 2 (01:32:40):
I mean, yeah, I mean word up is a new
Jack swing song. So can you just talk about like
your feelings of hip hop and how you know you
embraced it without like because most it's very unusual for
people to just be open to something and and and

(01:33:00):
not run away from it, like a lot of your
contemporaries were.

Speaker 3 (01:33:03):
Well, you know, I don't know what it was for them,
but I don't think we consciously made it an issue
when it came to music. What I enjoyed about the
movement called hip hop was the simplicity of the drum

(01:33:24):
beat and the simplicity of what was going on with
the bass for the most part. And I felt that
was that was a signature that could not be denied
or could not get old, because that beat was what

(01:33:47):
made it what it was, and whatever happened within that
structure was always interesting. You know, Funk is what it is.
You can have a funky ballad as much as you
can have a funky, up tempo thing, but there's no mistake.

(01:34:09):
You're gonna bob your head if it's happening, you're gonna
be in it. And once you're in it, you're in it.
You know what it is from that point forward.

Speaker 2 (01:34:17):
So it didn't make you feel weird when like a
guy like Blue Sala says, you know, Bobby Brown's leaving
new edition. You know he produces record because like, you know,
the songs you were doing on that record, although not
it's definitely pretty new jack swing.

Speaker 1 (01:34:36):
Like one of them joints.

Speaker 2 (01:34:36):
He does a beatbox breakdown and a wrap break which
again was very unusual for nineteen eighty six. Right, it
was ahead of its time. So right, like, even working
with Bobby Brown, what was that experience?

Speaker 3 (01:34:48):
Like, it was cool? You know, Bobby and I we
talked about that not long ago. You know, Bobby was
going through a lot of changes. And that's how when
I introduced Teddy to m c A over there where
Jered Busby was, you know, and Jered Busby and little Silas,

(01:35:09):
I believe, uh huh and uh. And I felt that
Teddy had some things that would work well for for
for Bobby and the rest is history.

Speaker 2 (01:35:21):
So you made that connection.

Speaker 1 (01:35:22):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:35:23):
And then that studio, I'll put that studio on the map.
When I first walked out there, they had one room
on the eighth floor and the Harrison sixteen.

Speaker 1 (01:35:31):
Track board, the one in Atlanta, No, the one in
New York.

Speaker 3 (01:35:36):
Oh quai, Yeah, Loune Salas, who on the place. They
heard that Larry was going to this place alone if
you didn't get out SSL board in that room. And
the next thing, next thing, I know, two weeks later
there's an SSL board in there and uh lou Lou

(01:36:00):
wanted to keep us there. It was it was crazy. Yeah,
Bobbie Brown project, Ryan Carrey, yeah, all that stuff. Yeah,
we we it was a home and the next thing,
I know, there's another They added another four floors of
other studios and that's when Biggie was up there, and

(01:36:24):
you know the thing happened at that time. You don't
have to go through everything.

Speaker 2 (01:36:27):
But now we've talked about this story a lot. Yes,
oh we know, we know.

Speaker 3 (01:36:33):
That was the most famous corner. I know.

Speaker 2 (01:36:37):
Even when I go there now because there's there's a
drum dealer on like the it's fifth four where I
get a lot of my vintage drums from. Oh really Yeah,
there's there's a cat up there that has like a
drum shop up there, So I still go there occasionally.
There is one question I do want to know, you know,
to have such a crowded space or at least in
the time that you were there.

Speaker 1 (01:36:59):
I mean, now, now you know, my band is kind
of like.

Speaker 2 (01:37:04):
One of the one of the last black bands with
a major record deal Steel, But just in general, what
bands did you respect? Like when they were on stage
you're like, oh man, they're kicking ass, or like yeah, earth.

Speaker 3 (01:37:23):
Wing a fire okay, confunction I love even today?

Speaker 2 (01:37:30):
Or who didn't you like I'm gonna ask them full
force questions.

Speaker 3 (01:37:35):
Either We're gonna tell you my pet peeve. You know
some of these guys, you know, they would run out
and under shaky circumstances, go someplace and get the own
the name of the group they've been working with for
a long time, and all of a sudden they own
this name. And because they own this name now I

(01:37:57):
tell them that in the Diamond by a couple of cars.
But how about the relationship you had and and what
you all did together to make hit music? That should
be the focus. Okay, not this I own the name now, Larry,
So what okay? Uh? That doesn't seem to be doing

(01:38:20):
a lot for you. And what made it work was
the apparatus, chemistry, the setup that you had before. You
should be running to preserve that and working along that
context because that's what worked for you.

Speaker 4 (01:38:39):
M Oh yeah, I want to ask about before we
go our senior hall doing shunky.

Speaker 3 (01:38:47):
Yeah, that was that was real. That was fun. That
was the first video I shot that uh that had
you know, did you sound? Actually real sound and dialogue
and you know, was in Japan and he called and
asked if I would do his chunky A and it
was it was strange. The guy that shot Michael Jackson's thriller,

(01:39:14):
was it, John Landers? Yes, but he had an A
D two. Anyway, A lot of the crew came from
that body of work. They were not necessarily the most
cooperative guys in the world. You know, there were things

(01:39:35):
being done that, you know, like somebody would have a
real thick cord coming across a walkway and you trip
over it and then you look back and it's not
there anymore. Then that's for you to know that that
was done for you U. So I avoided the stuff
like that. But it was a great shoot and I

(01:39:56):
enjoyed every moment of it. The whole chunky A thing
was ISOs thing I loved because he was just a
funny guy man, that's and he was a sincere guy,
you know, he used to invite us on the set.
He'd have a nice drum set in his office and
he had, Uh, it's got Chucky in his band, wasn't it.

Speaker 1 (01:40:19):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:40:24):
Yeah, played with us also, Man, I don't know how
many drummers we've been through.

Speaker 2 (01:40:30):
Jesus Christ. I want to know what the firing process
was like. Uh, that wasn't too hard. You know, well,
you don't mince words. I guess no.

Speaker 3 (01:40:41):
I mean, you know, you're trying to get something done
and and it's and it's fairly simple. It's it's the
frustrating part for me is when a guy can't hear
that he's losing in the pocket, or he can't hear
it himself, that is frustrating for me. But I have
done everything. I think I've done everything I could do

(01:41:02):
to help. But if they don't have it, they don't
have it. Some guys just don't have it. And rocks
rolling down a hill won't make people dance at all.
They said. The simplicity of some of the hip hop
feels with that's all you're doing, then that works. That
wouldn't make people want to dance because they're familiar with
that already. And and it's in time. If it's not

(01:41:28):
in time, is it music?

Speaker 2 (01:41:32):
I don't know, it might not be. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:41:35):
You might have to James Brown and find him.

Speaker 3 (01:41:37):
But yeah, and I don't know how James did that,
but they sure had it going on.

Speaker 2 (01:41:41):
God knows absolutely. I think I have a I think
I have an answer for finding the perfect drummer. Okay,
this is what and this is what Peter Gabriel used
to do. He used to have a drummer, or for
studio drummers, at least he would have a drummer come in,
sit behind the drum kit and just tell him to
play a song for like five minutes, and then one

(01:42:04):
by one he would take a piece away, and to
the point where he even took the high hats away.
Like Peter Gabriel hated the sound of high hats and
it forced when you're stuck with just the bare minimums,
then you're forced to just concentrate on the pocket because
you have nothing else to deal with. Which I know,

(01:42:25):
you know the Knights that I saw you guys, and
I saw you guys doing the John Blackwell era. I
almost feel like because cats always ask like, yo, man,
how can I get cats to stay in the pocket.
My first answer is you gotta take all their drums away,
the snare, high hat kick start there, the basic minimum,
and that's I feel like that's the answer. Cats gotta

(01:42:50):
get back and uh, you gotta it forces them to
stay in the pocket. You gotta take the toys away.
They do good rewarding with a high hat, you know
what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (01:43:05):
Hat? Yeah, how about that? But man, well, how did
you develop your pocket? When? When did that happen? When
did you notice that you had a pocket? Had to
have that pocket to play.

Speaker 2 (01:43:18):
The thing is is that you know, growing up right,
you know, hip hop and I were of sort of
the synergy together where not only am I studying drum
breaks that hip hop ers is sampling, but like I

(01:43:39):
grew up with those records and my father's record collection.
You know, you had like three four thousand records in
his collection. So I would notice that when cats wanted
to freestyle at my high school, if I were recreate
those same breaks that they heard in rap songs, that's
when they would start to dance. And you know, and

(01:44:00):
to me, it wasn't about drum feels. It's finding the
perfect four bars. And people don't trust the process of
less is.

Speaker 1 (01:44:12):
More, and you know, I felt like my thing was
the less.

Speaker 3 (01:44:18):
You do, the better it is. Yeah, and you know, but.

Speaker 1 (01:44:23):
It also it also comes with time.

Speaker 2 (01:44:25):
And that's the thing. Like a lot of times, especially
with black bands, when I was asking you earlier about
where did you practice? Oftentimes like church is the only
environment that they get to play, and sometimes you got
to do everything but the kitchen sink to keep your
position because there's fourteen drummers in church waiting to replace you.

(01:44:47):
And more than that, I just I grew up with
a band leader father that would look back at you
and find you fifty.

Speaker 1 (01:44:56):
Dollars if you messed up.

Speaker 2 (01:44:57):
So nah, I kept the pocket, Brother black Man, thank
you so much, Thank you man, I appreciate this.

Speaker 3 (01:45:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:45:05):
On behalf of Layah please get well and Sugar Steve.

Speaker 6 (01:45:09):
That that was a great interview. Thank you mister Blackman
for your time and all that information that was amazing,
And thank you for mentioning all the engineers also that
you worked with the time.

Speaker 2 (01:45:22):
Yo, thank you very much. On behalf of Fontigelow and
Layah and Unpaid Bill and Sugar Steve and myself quest
Love and the great Immortal Larry Blackman and all the
members of Cameo and their forty two thousand drummers.

Speaker 1 (01:45:38):
This is a quest love sir.

Speaker 2 (01:45:41):
All right, We'll see you in the next around.

Speaker 3 (01:45:42):
Thank you all right, Bye bye.

Speaker 2 (01:45:55):
West.

Speaker 1 (01:45:56):
Love Supreme is a production iHeart Radio.

Speaker 2 (01:46:02):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.