Questlove Supreme: Narada Michael Walden Part 2

In Part 2 of his Questlove Supreme interview, the musician-turned-super-producer Narada Michael Walden examines the 1980s. He recalls making hits with songstresses like Aretha Franklin, Whitney Houston, Angela Bofill, and Stacy Lattisaw. One can feel the passion, experimentation, and wise intensity of a 50-plus-year legend in the game. This interview is special.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Yo.

Speaker 3 (00:05):
It's Up Everybody. It's Fontigelow from Questlove Supreme. We are
back with part two of our conversation with Nada Michael Walton.

Speaker 4 (00:13):
This is an amazing two parter.

Speaker 3 (00:14):
If you haven't, please check out part one where Narrata
talks about his Michigan upbringing, his deeply transformational time with
the Maha Vishnu orchestruct Who Little Brother, Sample, Plug, Plug,
Chikaia and Board. Is April Jazz Appreciation Month, and this
two parter certainly celebrates the genre and culture and I
would shape so much music outside of the genre.

Speaker 4 (00:35):
Enjoy.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
There's a question I've been dying to know in the
mid seventies jazz cats Now in the case if you're
Miles David's disciple, I understand, Like m two May already
explained to us that Miles' dependency he was getting out
of control in the early seventies and then he's basically

(01:05):
not too functional and the bands left without work and
they're basically like, well we got to pay the rent,
and you know, m to May and Reggie Lucas of
Miles Davis's you Know band were like, well, shit, we
got to write some hits to pay the bills.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah, can you explain.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
To me why there was such a mass exodus of
fusion musicians of jazz musicians that all of a sudden
in the mid seventies became the architects and the proprietors
of some of the poppiest songs we've ever heard.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
It's almost like a complete opposite. What was the.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
Transitional decision process to get out of fusion and into
pop music?

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Very good? I got you my third solo album, we
call Awakening. I was cutting it in La Stevie Wonders
studio and Wayne Anderson was one of the producer type
people with me and his teams and all that. And
then I got a call after I was cutting that music.
You know some cool stuff that Jim Dellahant from Atlantic,

(02:18):
who's my an r. He said, you know what, if
you don't have a hit on this next album, we're
going to drop you. And that was the word of
death to me. I knew that things were going through
a change. He told me. He said, in New York
this goes hot now dancing the Steve fifty four people. Really,
it's like a big craze. We really suggest that you
come to New York and see what's going on. And

(02:42):
I did, and when I went there, I felt what
he was talking about. It was on firewood dance, and
that wasn't hard for me because I'm raised with motime,
I'm raised with people all kind of music. So after
I cut the Awakening stuff in California, I decided to
make Side Side one that was strictly for dance and

(03:03):
saved my career and not be dropped. And I used
the examples of Rick James, you and I. He was
a good person for me to kind of draw from
because it was live drums, it was funky, it was live,
it was horns, things I loved, and it was a
style I could pull off. So in my hotel room
at the Hilton in my I got a Clavenet in
the Roads in my room and I wrote four jams
and I don't want nobody else won those jams. And

(03:26):
I was so lucky to get Bobby clem Out from
Power Station to be my engineer. What records he made
with Chic on Good Times. I had never heard a
more beautiful record than fucking good Times. And it haven't
be my engineer to get my drum sound. Yeah. See,
so I'm cutting those records. I don't want nobody else.

(03:46):
And then guess what else. Now, I got Randy Brecker
coming to come in with Michael Brecker and David sam
want to put horns on my jam. So it's real
musicians see it. So I'm happy. And then they said
you got to use the cat who's big of a
disco named Patrick Patrick Adams. Yes, because his name in
the disco world with the strings and learning, he does well.
Make sure you you know. So I said, okay, so

(04:09):
you know. And he didn't come around there that much,
but you might come out of love with a little
sound on something to do a little thing a little
and he was cool. What I'm saying is cutting that music.
And then when I had success with that sound, it
saved my career. At that time, I didn't want to
be dropped. I wanted to be a strong person to
make it. I just got married. I want to take

(04:30):
care of my life. And it's fusionary music as we know,
it was going away the people in the fans, for
example Garden Love Light, that album didn't sell that much.
I wasn't I wasn't like some overnight star people. They
were not They were not supporting, but they supposedly loved
the fusion at those times going forward in the seventies
early on, yes, but not those years. Those years it

(04:52):
was a change up going on. Even even Lenning whiteouldn't
my man return to forever? Those everything's kind of like, NA,
So what are you gonna do? Be you know what
I mean? If you're gonna support me, fine, we're making money,
no money, I'm going I'm going to save my life.
I did, brother, I got. I'm happy I did. It
was wonderful, wonderful, and every out I do I was put,

(05:14):
you know, a Son's dancing type jam on there. So
I can still do that and I love it. Right,
But I'm about having a radio hit and making some money,
so I'm not shining shoes.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
I know that you've had Randy Jackson in your stable
since he was a teenager, and not Michael's brother, but
Randy Jackson, American idol, r Andy Jackson since he was sixteen, seventeen,
eighteen years old, I believe, But I always thought that
was him killing I should have loved you. Someone told

(05:44):
me like two weeks ago, that was TM Stevens.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
That's right, Please, can.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
You please tell me just about Tim Stevens and tell
me what it was like working with them.

Speaker 2 (05:55):
Team's a genius. I was in New York, I still
lived in New York. I met Tiam before I moved
to California seventy eight, So in seventy seven round those
years I met t him. You know, he'd be like
the stee you wonder the bass. He had that kind
of power, that kind of energy, like a like just
a huge band with the strength of God in his hands.
And they could play bookoo like that to be popping

(06:18):
the two in the four as he's playing with lines
right and just he was playing with a show called
Your Arms Too Short, the Box of God. And he
had a drummer named Howie Great from Queen's and how
he became my connection out in the Queen's area. All
those good drummers out and people ou in Queen's area too. See,
so now here's TM Steve. I mean, all these new
cats are coming up with the great skills. And then
as it worked out, I had to do a tour

(06:40):
for I don't know a best dance with you, So
I had to put a band together. So I asked
tam drummer my touring band, you know, and Philip's says,
out of at Berkeley to play keyboards, and Pat throw
from Automatic man from California, come and play guitars and
put a hot band together and toured, and then came
time for my fourth so wouldcome Dance of Life. And
now I'm living in San Francisco, so I thought, I'll
bring TM Stevens out here to work out this new

(07:02):
material with me. And I know I still have to
have another hit. I'll be dropped. So as it worked out,
I brought him to California, be a little warehouse in Oakland.
I said, team will play a game with you. I'm
gonna play this groove on the drums, And every time
I hit the hit, the symbol changed baselines and he'd
be playing the baseline whatever it is right now. Then
I had the symbol again, he changed. I crancked a

(07:22):
symbol again, he changed. Then finally, crap, should I that
was that's his massive baseline. Ran Jackson wasn't around then.
That came. He came later, but I didn't think I

(07:44):
find anyone whould play. I should have loved you like
TM Stevens. He's the most massive cat in the world.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
For the longest I thought it was when you know,
it came out when I was eight, so I thought
it was chic initially. Yeah, but shit, I'm just realizing now.
Before she passed away, we had Ali Willis on the show, Yes,
and she was this mind blowing that we knew our
whole discography only because a lot of the work that

(08:11):
she did wound up being like iconic samples that we
would later gravitate towards. And so she was kind of
weirded out that we knew her history. But how did
you link up with her to write that song?

Speaker 2 (08:22):
Well, okay, she's in LA I'm in San Francisco, and
I hear about her work because of the Maurice White
earthmen and fire stuff that I was exploding with her
name on it, right, I knew she was mean somehow
or other. I came into touch with her because of
her publishing people, the company she was part of, Almo Irving,
and I could find her number. Then when I talked
on the phone, come to find out she's from Damn,

(08:44):
my hometown, Detroit, Michigan. I'm from Kalamazoo, She's from Detroit.
So we had a kind of a bond immediately, and
that I loved what she was doing. She said, well,
come down to my house. So I did. I brought
my eye should Love you down to her house. And
our house was all what's that word? When everything's like
old fashioned looking old dolls and old things and everything old.
We've been there a career before, so that was kind

(09:08):
of wow. Okay, But we sat down and wrote the
lyrics for I Should Love and she was just mean
how her brain thought, you know, okay, that's so wait.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
She she's had that house of kitsch art.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
There was trues, No, there's two. Was first house she
had was become a smaller apartment house. It wasn't a
big one, it was smaller, but it had all that
stuff in it. Then later on, as we became even
closer and friendlier over over years, then she got the
bigger house that you're talking about, and we were always
tight then too.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
Tell me about the process of going into producing and
what did you learn that you couldn't apply for yourself,
that you wound up giving two other artists.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
Well, at that time I was hot with that I
Should have Loved you time, all right, those records? Why
did you turn me on. And I asked Henry Allen,
who was the president of Contillion Records. He's a partner
with Atlantic Records. Black gentleman, Henry Allen. You gotta know
about Henry Allen's He and his team. They had signed
Stacy when she was about eleven and they made recording

(10:07):
but it wasn't doing well. So I said, Henry, you
know this girl, Stacy, why don't you let me do
some songs on her. I'll do four songs. If you
like him, I'll finished the album. If you don't like me,
I haven't lost much as four songs. And he said,
you know what, it's a good idea, go dude, do her.
So I took it very, very seriously. This is my
first real shot at pop production. My first jazz production

(10:29):
was just before that, a cat named Don Cherry. Then
now I'm gone to Restauranta Rose more jazz, you know,
with Tony Williams and Lenny all that stuff in the
pop world. Yes, it was Stacey Lantisa. So then I
wrote these songs with a girl named Bunny Hull Buddy.
It came to my house in San Francisco and my
wife at the time, Lisa Lisa Walden. I wrote these

(10:50):
songs let Me be your Angel. Dynamite jumped to the beat,
and I flew to go to Stacy's house. She had
a very small house and like a little spin at
piano and I just got on her piano and just
kind of went through these teach teaching me the songs
so make sure the keys are writing and all that,
And then came back to San Francisco at the Sauce

(11:12):
Leedo record Plant where Prince then made his first album.
In there, I got my big drum sound Tommy Tommy Fly,
the same guy that did for James' records on the
Maybe Angel Dyning My jo got a great sound with
my band Karado guitar, TM on bass, Frank Martin on keyboards,
and laid that stuff out. Mike gives strings, laid it out.

(11:33):
Then went to Power Station to get her vocals on
those songs, and here she said, about eleven years old,
that big voice you hear, and just I wanted to
get it just right, and we did and it became
his for us. So I'm just very very very very
very proud of that time. And it opened up a
lot of doors from me because because of that cam

(11:54):
then Clive Davis calling and everybody else calling because I
had that kind of sucessful stage and the stays actually
to open them for Michael Jackson and Jackson five. That's
how to get big. She got with Tim Steven's on base.

Speaker 3 (12:05):
I was on to ask what their work with Stacy
and then also going on with Sha Nice and Tevin Campbell.
What was kind of your I guess you're your formula
for working with children, because that's something that's really hard
to do, like to write material that is can't sell,
but it's also his aging appropriate.

Speaker 4 (12:23):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (12:24):
How did you kind of figure that out? And you know,
kind of find that balance.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
You have to have a great hook. The hook is
worth will always save you as far as making money
on music business. The hook, of course, and I'm always
aware of, like, well, who is it Stacy, she's eleven twelve.
This whole angel concept is always cool, you know, and
then she could talk. You know, you might think I'm
too young to understand, but don't be fooled. You know,
like a child, you know, I look into your eyes

(12:50):
and I know someday, you know, I'll make you mine.
I don't make kiddie music that doesn't work. I learned
from Michael Jackson the early I want you back. You
know those records. You got to make records. Everyone can
party to faboots. So I didn't travel make kiddie records.
You mentioned Shoannie Wilson. She came here, she was sixteen,
and I said, right down seven song title, and she

(13:10):
did justish, I hate to be lonely. I love your
smile and I want my to keyboard, and just wrote
those songs and God blessed me just I love I
love you know smiles. Just looking at her, you can

(13:31):
feel the energy coming off her and that smile, she's gone.
That's what it was. Tavin Campbell, when Quincy Jones brought
him here, I looked at him just so beautiful, thin,
a genius thinger like Whitney said, well you need you
need the song, showcase your voice and like a big
a tour the fours man. I said, which what you

(13:54):
want to do, Tavin? Yeah, tell me what you want
me to do. That's just that's simple. Then you gotta
put the big modulation so you can really go on.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
Right right right. Jimmy Jam kind of teases me because
when I was a kid, whenever a song would modulate
that would scare me. And so because it sounds dramatic. Yeah,
and so wait, but here's the thing, you you know, often,
in my obsession with historical firsts, I will actually say

(14:28):
that if someone were to be credited with like the
really first attempt at New Jack Swing, yeah, I would
say Attack of the Name Game might be the first
experimentation of making a singer sing on a backtrack, that is,

(14:51):
that could be made for hip hop. All right, So
for those that don't know, was it the Sneaking Out album?

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah? Yeah, so stay, I see a lot of songs.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
I mean, well, I know she had albums before let
Me Be Your Angel, So I would say her fourth album,
maybe a third.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
Or fourth album. Yeah, But there's a.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
Song Attack of the Name Game, which even when I
heard it as eleven year old, I was like, oh,
this is kind of made for me. Like this this
isn't a song that my dad would gravitate towards because
this sounds like rap music that I like, what was
the process in trying to go there?

Speaker 2 (15:29):
Thank you? That's very cool man. Two things. One borrowing
from the sixties idea of you know, a banana fan
of fol fan of me and my mom. Man had
taken that vibe, which I actually to pay them for,
which I didn't mind because I love the College sept
And then I joined that with Yes I did, Yes,
I did. And then I joined that with my brain
and made my own version of tom Time Club, which

(15:50):
was so hot in New York, Tino.

Speaker 4 (15:54):
Yeah, I take all.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
Those things and mix them together. I mean, let the
listeners know. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Attack of the Name Game is what Mariah sampled for
a heartbreaker.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
Heartbreaker, Yeah, that's right, that's right. So I was always
looking to New York and even London too, was always
gonna be the next wave. So I caught that wave, man,
and I'm just you know, and then I've got Stacy
to do that. The thing one when her brother became
that kind of a sound talking like the alien from space. See,
I thought that was you. That was her brother. Okay.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
If there's two human beings that I've seen that were
otherworldly to me as far as like they're just on
some almost pleadian alien level type of person, I've never
seen Angela Bouefield give a normal interview on television.

Speaker 5 (16:50):
Okay, So can you please describe because I've never seen
a person put their humor out front, and like she
always had a joke or a punchline, like maybe Vesta
is in third place, like I'll see Tatsa Vega. Vesta
and Angela Bouefield were like almost personalities.

Speaker 2 (17:13):
What was Angela Bufield? Like? Open hearted, funny, But I
must tell you perfect pitch. It's so beautiful how she
hears and how she can hit her notes and just
make everything so musical. She's extremely musical. I was a
fan of her stuff, you know, before I ever worked

(17:33):
with her. You know, I try and those records she
put out with Grusoon Dave Grusoon, which is beautiful. So
then when Clyde Davis asked me to work with with Angela,
he first picked the song of something about You and
a few of those type of ideas. But after I
got to know her, I know that she liked the funk.
To see that, I got excited and I came on

(17:55):
one morning on my profit keyboard and my drum machine,
my the machines and just made a demo. But I
don't make demos some big records, but cutt an idea
of too tough for her because I knew that she
liked the funk, and that was the most cutting ede
stuf I stuff I could do. At that time. I said,
and it's just coming in and to sing on this
for me, and she did, and she got so excited

(18:15):
she called Clive now to getting a hit. But I
was really just wanted to be like raw a dude
and done done, done, done like that, all that kind
of thing, you know. And and we all we also
had a lot of license to be a little little
raunchy and lyrics now because now Prince will be on
the scene a lot of things to be on the scene.
You could be a little bit cutting edge on the

(18:36):
lyric in R and B and get away with it.
So all those things kind of came into factor. But
I love Angela. You know, she's had a little stroke.
Now we're still talking to her and all she's all,
I want to know what's going on, you know. But
we made I Maderee albums for Lange, both for three albums,
a lot of music, and she taught me how to them.
Going to Whitney Houston. I have to say that my

(18:58):
discipline with with the way Angela gave me knowing how
to if I only have three hours with it within
three hours here, three hours, but two hours year. I
knew how to cut vocals now because of Angela Beaufield.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
So before we get to Whitney, Yeah, one I want
to know, like, how do you climb the mountain? That
is Clive Davis because of his just no nonsense, no
bullshit kind of like give me the hit, take me
to the mountaintop. What is your first meetings with Clive?

(19:30):
Like like, how does he know that he can put
his trust in you to deliver what is needed?

Speaker 2 (19:37):
I think when he heard let me be your Angel,
he called me the telephone and he said, you know,
how are you doing this? It was like a question
to me, It's like, huh, how am I doing this? Well,
I'm from Michigan, Callum's in Michigan. We love music and
we just that's what we do. That's it.

Speaker 6 (20:01):
I said.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
From me, He goes, well, how would you want to
work with some of my artists, you know, like Angel
the Boatfield. That's how it started. Just that's that humble.
And then after I did the trust with Angel doing
those records came then Phyllis Hyman and uh then then
not long after that, he said, Dione Warrick. That's mine,

(20:26):
you know, Burke Backrecks Hal David is like, oh my god, healthy,
you know, the Windows of the World, all that music.
So that was mind belonged even to think about meeting
that Dione Warwick. I put my little thirteen songs together,
went to La d her home, and Dion was not
feeling my music. So I came back home and I
called Clive. I said, Dion is not feeling my music.

(20:48):
He said, don't worry, which I thought was very very kind.
He said don't worry. He said, how about Aarretha Franklin.
How about Aretha Franklin? Right? He said, just here for
a phone call? Okay? And I did, and I called
Aretha and I'm so glad. I had my pen and
paper and everything ready because I had no idea how

(21:10):
deep she is? Can I can? I? Can I tell
that story for you right now? Absolutely? Okay? I call Aretha.
He she says, hi, And I said, well, what do
you do for fun? You know, I'm just trying to
break it down, you know, you Detroit, what do you
do for fun? That's when she showed me who she is.
She goes, hm, you know, maybe I not. I go
out to a nightclub. You know, maybe in the corner.

(21:33):
I see a guy like, you know, he looks, he
looks at me. I look at him. It's like, who's zooming?
Then he feels he's got me with the fish hup
off the hook? Who's zooming? Who the fish hump off
the hook? That's how she talked. That's who she is.

(21:55):
I was like, so that was I wasn't ready for
all that, but I took that stuff. I said, resting
my partner, we gotta write a song with this Who's
who fishing off the hook? She's crazy, man, It's crazy.
That's how that happened. So that was Clyde Davis. Just
give her a call.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
I believe that you can meditate and manifest whatever it
is that you want to achieve in life. But I
mean to be honest with you. When you're starting the
Whitney Euston debut album, I mean, are you thinking that
this person's about to be the Mount Rushmore of pop
music as we know it at that time? Or were

(22:35):
they just planning like respectable you know black Casief numbers
like she's gonna go gold and platinum, maybe double platinum.
Like coming into the door, do you know what you
guys were gunning for.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
Okay, that's very beautiful. Thank you for the honor and
the love to give me. I can feel it when
you're talking to me, and what it does is it
makes me really think about what you're asking. So what
I want to say is this. When I'm in the automat,
I wasn't at Tarban studio shop. I was still in
the city at the automat cutting a Wreatha Franklin, getting
ready for Wretha Franklin. When the phone call came from

(23:11):
Jerry Griffin, the an R of Arista, Narda, you got
to make time for Whitney Houston, and I said, no,
I'm working on Retha Franklin. I cannot lose my focus.
He goes, yeah, I know, but you don't want to
miss this younger we've signed who's gonna be big. But
and also I gotta tell you, Narda, she is Sissy

(23:33):
Houston's daughter. And then I had to stop and think
Sissy Houston saying background a garden, love life, take me,
take me, take me to the God, the Light. And
when the corner was a little eleven year old girl
that was her daughter. I met with this little girl
which was eleven. Oh yeah, I said, well, you know,

(23:55):
I'm busy. He goes, we have a hook a song.
How will I know? Let me send you the idea.
She sent me the idea, heard howl. I know. Cool. Cool, course,
I call Hi back to Jerry. There's no verses. I mean,
if I'm getting involved, I gotta write some verses for
this thing. Finish. It's gonna make a strong song because
let me ask the writers. He called the writers, call

(24:16):
me back right to stay fine. Now it's on.

Speaker 4 (24:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
So instead of doing another I read the song that day,
I told Randy Jackson, Krodo Preston, Walter Auson, Avia, Frank
Martin Dave phrase of my team, We're gonna do a
song called howell I know for Whitney Houston today And
I just went to the piano and banged it out
and put a verses up. I know, here's the one

(24:42):
of that kind of spirit and they cut the hell
out of it. And that was the time. Now Randy's
playing this mo bass with one finger took a So
we had this team, this hybrid like a Motown Corporation
sound with the newest technology that we needed to be

(25:05):
competitive with Clints and Michael Jackson, Quincy Jones and everybody
else is doing records. So we put that thing down.
Then I called with the Funcus. I hadn't spoken her yet,
and I said, listen, I'm making the verse really high.
Can you sing Hi to? Yeah? I sing Hi No.
I said, no, no, no, no, no, I'm cutting in San Francisco.
I'm a fly to New York to go meet you

(25:26):
with a tape. If it's the wrong key, we'll get
we're off.

Speaker 6 (25:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
She says, no, no, I can sing hid all right.
And then I went to New York. And when I
go to New York at the media sound with Michael
Barbiero with my injury, he was brilliant. He knew the
right Mike, I like this noyman, beautiful Mike. Or we're
in the studio making it. Everything's sounding good before she

(25:51):
even walks in. And when she walked in, Now I'm
gonna talk to you straight up. She was so beautiful.
Just to put your eyes on her was just like,
my god, now I'm understanding. We don't even heard her sing.
Just looking at her, she's just the cheek, thumbs, the fingers.

(26:12):
She's nineteen, Okay, okay, I'm trying to understand here. Now
go by the mic, sing the song, and God bless her.
She knew that song of plenty song that been with her,
That was the only song she knew. How long is she?
She was ready for it first album and she blew
that song. Man, she killed that song like what you're
hearing on that record. All that power and spitting and

(26:34):
also control of the head voice to the chest voice,
the chest voice back to the head voice. It was
all effortless. I said, well, do you know what we've
done about four or five takes this and you're so
tight on that. I need to keep beating this horse.
What we're gonna do now is do a few doublings,
a few harmonies, and you want you to come listen
to it? And she double? I want her double? She harmon,

(26:54):
want hear I said, come listen to it on the
playback in the control room. If you were me and
I'm her, she's looking at me like this. She's looking
at me like that. I've never had anyone stare at
me like that. The hollandlds bluring all the speakers, healing it,
and she's looking at me like do you hear that.

(27:20):
Do you hear that? Now? It's like a Muhammad Ali moment,
like you know, I'm the greatest, but I'm saying that
just like now I'm realizing, damn, this is incredible and
I'm bless us man. That's what I want to tell you.
That's when it hit me that, yeah, no, we're on
to something that's going to be like huge. I have
one question.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
Okay, you do something on that song. I've never heard
in the history of pop music. I've never heard somebody
like because the thing is, you're building up drama, like
go to the if he loves me, if he loves me,
not think right.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
That is a ramp.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
You're building up to something, and when you build up
to it, you modulate to a lower key. I've never
heard that in the history.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
Of pop music.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
What was the thought behind because you know, again, modulation
is supposed to be the dramatic moment where you higher
and but yet like.

Speaker 4 (28:19):
I'm almost like I need to get down.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
How did you know that would come off? To be
honest with you, before I even met with me, I
work out the song in the studio and maybe I
even get like one of my singers, my girl singers
come and just lay out the idea so I know
it all works before I even go anywhere. I have
a few different demo demo singers, but Kitty Behope at
that time was one of my go tos to work
out my ideas that it was all going to be

(28:47):
like strong. That's what I always do. Put to make
a blueprint so that when I get with a singer,
if something doesn't work out, well, no, I know this work,
please do this. So that's how it worked it out,
knowing it'd be great because it sounded great, and I
put the backgrounds on it, the ideas. Everything worked out
so that when I see Whitney it's powerful. But then

(29:08):
after I did it with her, it was so incredible.
I said, can you get your mom to come down
and join on the background, And she did income Sissy
Houston with her troop and then they're singing it. But
then I said, no, you go to join your mother.
Now that was the sound of all knowe again she
know the lead, but she's also part of the background
with her mom. That's power. So all that power, you

(29:30):
don't know where is going up or down, it's just power.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Unfortunately, I hate the way that transitioning death makes me
appreciate or listen to someone's music, Like when a person
transitions and I go back to their catalog, then I
hear something. It's like another chamber opens. Yes, so before

(29:56):
I ask you, because the thing is is that I
feel like right now and you know, I'm a DJ
that that is very active and still spinning records, and
I feel as though I want to dance with somebody
is going through its September phase. Matter of fact, like

(30:18):
what I call the smells like teen spirit effect. That's
what I want to dance with somebody. Because of course
it's like, Okay, we're celebrating her and whatnot. But please
tell me what the air was like and the tension
of working on the second album where you guys now
have to first of all, are you ever thinking of like, Okay,

(30:43):
I gotta live up to it, like you know, when
you're working on rock a lot or whatever for like
Aretha's next records or whatever, Like I gotta I got
a top freeway of love. I gotta what's your creative
process in terms of like following up, like what.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
Was the difference between it? There are a few things
I want to say. Clive Davis decided early on after
the success and fastest rising hit of the Howl I Know,
being the number one on the third album of the
third number one off that record going so big. Then
he called me to meet him at the bungalow, his
bungalow in Beverly Hills. It wasn't long after How I Know.

(31:21):
Then he says, come meet me. So I go to
meet him. He plays for me I wouldn't dance for
Somebody Loves Me as a demo, the same people who
worked on how I Know. But the demo is kind
of like very poppy, like a Rodeo Cet type of record.
But it's cool. Oh you can hear the hook in there.
But the track is just so popular. I'm going immediately,

(31:42):
I'm thinking, how am I going to make this a
ghetto record? You know, really make a badass for the
black people on the North side of Kalamazoo and around
the world. That's why my money immediately goes. Then he
played me a few more songs he wanted for where
It Broke Our Arts Go, and maybe one or two more,
and I played him with a pressing glass. Songs you
know the Preston written, so.

Speaker 1 (32:02):
You're saying he's planning this even as the first album
has yet to really.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
Yeah, he's your first time was still you know, but
now he's like he decided because wouldn't I worked so
fast on how I know, we turned in so fast
that he wants a fast second album kind of be
able to pick up on this success. So I get it,
and he plays me these ideas, and then I come
back to the same room when I'm sitting here with

(32:26):
you right now, which I want you to come make
your record tart band studios, same studio. Yeah, this is it. Wow, Okay,
And I get Randy Jackson. Who I do. I'm that
one finger's synthesizer bass crowder, my Italian style guitar. Walter
Snavi has not become a big producer yet for Titanic
and all that and Mariah he's he's one of our

(32:48):
stable cats, Preston Glass and my genius engineer of David Frasier.
And I just take these ideas that these Karl clave
has given me and just put my thing on it,
our thing on it, which means Quincy Jones taught me
an out house bottom with a pent house view, and

(33:09):
I put the vocals down the lead vocals and the
backing vocals, so it sounds like a finished record on
five songs, and one of those songs would be the
Odds of brother song for the Love of You, because
Whitney wanted to do that. So before Whitney ever comes
in the room, it's all ready for her and and
and we are efficient because don't forget I put Disciple grew.
I'm like, I'm like a I'm like an army. I'm

(33:31):
like an army. There's no drinking, there's no smoking, there's
no drugs. It's this vegetarian life, just like an army.
Like your fallon show, You're on.

Speaker 6 (33:42):
It.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
That's how it was in his room. So when she
came here, I played for her I Somebody Loves Me.
She was like, wow, I never heard it like that.
And then I played for the song. I mean, she
didn't even like which is where broken Hearts go? And
I played her that. I said, does this cup for you? Now?
Then she goes, Now, I'm starting to get it because
now it's for her. Got the right basis, like, got

(34:04):
the black on it. That's cool. So what I'm saying
to you is I have to all say this now.
The first song that she sang in this room was
a song by the Isis for the Love of You.
And what was so great about doing that song first,
because she said, I know that song. I'm not even
learned of the songs yet, but I know that for
love of You, So going on, I can sing that.
So she sang that. I said, there are backing vocals

(34:26):
on for the love you stack your voice, so we
started stacking her voice twenty forty times, so it's all
the harms are her voice. And she came back in
the studio to hear. Now she's hearing like angels her voice,
and I see the look on her face, and she's
getting inspired by the sound of her her voice. Stacked
that many times, and I said, tomorrow we're gonna do

(34:49):
I want to dance somebody who loves me. She said, okay,
because she's high. Now she's excited by the sound of
her voice. And next day she came in and we
ran through it spoon feeding because you didn't know it.
Do the verse, do the verse, you know, do do
a course, do a course, do an of course, Pagna.

(35:09):
Put the whole thing together. Now go to the outro
and just go crazy for me. And she stumbled upon.
Say you wanna dance? Don't you want to? Don't you
want to dance? Say you wanna dance? Don't you want
to dance? That you want to dance?

Speaker 7 (35:20):
Oh don't you want to?

Speaker 2 (35:21):
Say you want to dance? Oh? Yeah? Man? Oh well
something body ruler that came out of her. I was like, damn,
I'm changing everything to go with that. With that, now
that's gonna be the the highlight at the very end
to go to right. That came out of her. So
I'm saying God came through. But I will say we
knew we wanted to make records that would last forever.

(35:43):
We pray about it. She loved Jesus. We pray about it,
you know, Dear Lord Jesus Savior and all that. You know.
Let me do my best work. Very devoted the weather
people want to you are not.

Speaker 1 (36:01):
You are probably the most bullseye standard of what we
know as the eighties pop sounds. I know that Prince
was an architect, I know that Michael was a god
and all that stuff, But who does the person who's
the standard? You know, because you're doing starships nothing like.

(36:23):
I can only imagine what your life is like once
you have the success with Whitney, But first of all,
it's like who was your who was your guide to
even because I feel like every creator needs something to
sponge off of, to be like, all right, this is
where I'm gonna create. But what did the effect of

(36:44):
the Whitney albums have on you in terms of, you know, demand,
I need you to do my record.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
I need you to do my record.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
You gotta like because I'm certain now if people are
hiring you, they're expecting you to contribute the song that's
going to also bring them to twelve billion units and
sixty million units, Like is.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
Filler even a thing to you? Like?

Speaker 1 (37:07):
Or even allowed the freedom to just write a song
that's not going to be it, but this is really
clever song and da da da da da, Like what
is your life?

Speaker 2 (37:15):
I'd be allowed to write it. I'd be allowed to
write it. But I was always knowing this is kb
Alex quiet storm format song. This is top ten format song.
This is R and B top ten song. I can
differentiate because don't forget at that time, we don't talk

(37:36):
about it, but I'll talk to you now. Any artist
that came through our door, black artist, we had always
think how we're going to break them first on black radio,
R and B radio, we could just think pop. You
just think, yeah, you want to get the bob, but
you have to first go through your R and B door.
So we knew those worlds R and B pop course

(37:58):
of course country, you know, jazz and then quiet storm
a hybrid easygoing music which now becomes smooth jazz whatever
that is. So we knew the different categories. You had
to know that as a producer because if you didn't,
you couldn't make it. As a producer. You had to
be making no, no, this is going to be doing.
This is going to give us the army radio, and
then we have enough of the hook to go to

(38:19):
p operate and do well. Even the thinking with Clive
Davis and Arista putting out You Give Good Love first
was to ingratiate Mom and Pops and black radio and
our black community that she's ours. Before they came with
a saving on my left for you and how I

(38:40):
know that's for the world. That was a very thought
about decision. You see what I'm saying. That's how it
was at that time. Everything had to be a certain way.
It was a black artist, a pop artist that you
mentioned Starship. I'm not worrying about that because they already
that's great slick. We love Mickey Thomas, killer Singer. It's
a band that we all know. They already had. We
built this city and Sarah, they had damn hits, you

(39:03):
know mean. So I got my electronic drums, Shott, I
got good studs, got good d put that funk drive
on it. On a Dyan Warren song that became her
first number one, and it was so strong I knocked
myself out of number one. George Michael Reath the Franklin
the way me knocked myself out the number one. That's

(39:24):
how I was at that time. Because the drums, the
sound I knew was the power. You have to have it,
and we changed the sound to be like mighty. And
don't forget what our competition was. Your a friend, Prince,
he had the hell of the drums. He knew it.
And not only did he know it, he puts you.
He put his foot up your butt about it. Those

(39:44):
drum chacks you put down. Look at grupple rain and stout.
The sound is almighty. He was a mean scientist and
everyone you wanted to be competitive, you better be able
to get down with it with these new machines or
you're out.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
Could you also tell me about Areitha and Whitney's It
isn't it? Wasn't it ever going to be like did
they do them together or what was that those sessions?

Speaker 2 (40:13):
Like, well, there's two two different record you talk about.
Now you're talking. You asked first about the George Michael record.
I'm excited, okay, I am too. I am too man,
I am too okay, So dig on I knew waiting
for me as a Clive Davis pick. Clive said, I
met with George Michael. He wants to do a song
with Aretha. He loves the Aretha. I said, okay, and he

(40:35):
said I found this song. I'm gonna send it to you.
And then Clive sent me the song and powerful song.
I went from me, but again it's the magic of
my team to bring those chimes with Crawdle on the
Syns guitar on the very beginning against the drum. You
have to understand at that time you had to have
this new sound before anybody opened the mouths this The

(40:58):
sound of the record had to be like Ahead, kind
of like Motown. Was the hit No You won't hit
you know what I mean. So in the electronic world,
we have to put that thing down it sounds good
in this room, and then lay it all out with
the vocals back in vocals, all sounding finished. And then
when I went to Detroit, I've had three days and

(41:21):
they were on tape. So we only have ten tracks.
A piece for a reth Inn for George. Wreatha comes
in the first day, lays out her verses and choruses
and then not blowing on the end. I want to
save that for a live thing with George. Then the
next day comes in, George Areatha's not there. George is
very nervous. He's very nervous, and he's a control freak.

(41:44):
He's only produced himself. He's only had one guy produced
him from that dude thing, you know, it's Chris. Besides that,
he's done his own masterpieces. So we have ten tracks
for George. I'm gonna just say this because this is
important for my life. George goes on the mic and
he sings the song, and he goes almost through damn

(42:06):
ten those tracks. He goes through those damn ten tracks,
and I happen to know the first four tracks are
my record because he was so strong. As he's gone
to the sixth and seventh and eighth track is diminishing
a little bit. He says to me, go back over
those first tracks. I want to do more vocals. And
that's when I became a producer, and I said, no,

(42:28):
we're not doing that. These four tracks, that's my record,
that's the record. You think you're getting better, but in
fact you're diminishing.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
How do you Jedi mind trick an artist to get
out of their head.

Speaker 2 (42:41):
You have to say dis trust me. That's all you
got to do. Because you say, go home, let me
comp this. When you come back tomorrow, I play, I
sleep all night, go home. I'm gonna put it together.
And when you hear tomorrow, you're come in fresh to
do your backing vote. You come in fresh to your
ad libs with the Queen. Get your Rest's be the
challenge and if anything bothers you tomorrow, then we can

(43:02):
do that. After I've had a chance to call him
through what I know is my hit record. Then he
said okay, But he looked at me like, who are
you to talk to like this? You know, he looked
at me like, you know who you think you are? Bad.
Let him know, George, you think you're getting better, but
in fact these first tracks were mighty. So then he
just he gave in. He gave in the next day.

(43:24):
That was genius because now he's meeting the queen, and
the queen's happened to meeting him because he's a big star.
And then what it is, we have two mics. I
have enough to do four rounds of ad lits on
the ending with two tracks a piece. And Aretha goes
easy on those first tracks. She's, you know, just feeling
them out like a prize It's like a prize fighter.
She's a fucking prize Fighter's a prize fighter. On the

(43:48):
third and fourth go rounds, she let him have it, man,
And that's on that record. Would you hear? And he stunned,
He's stopped because he could have a power no one can.
So what I'm saying to you is, I'm very proud
of that record now on because it's number one because
the friendship that Jeorde and I made of him trusting

(44:09):
me and me having to be strong to say no stopping.
So like that, I can tell you, did you do.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
The same process Whitney and Aretha? Like, do you prefer
them to sing apart or that song they were together.
Cut the tracks here, go to Detroit. You're not it
sound with my enginet dave phrase. We fly together.

Speaker 2 (44:27):
It sound in the same studios where George Wilt be
hanging out. I know we won't the funk all that
stuff in the whole same rooms.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
Q tip has that board? Now who does Q tip
has the API board?

Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yes? Okay board? So what was that session?

Speaker 1 (44:45):
It's again like you have two women at the top
of their game, two gods at the top of their game.
How are you refereeing how the song's gonna go? Well
that you're allowed to tell me, And I can tell
by the look on your face.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
You gotta hold some stuff back. They're both in heaven.
They're both looking down upon us right now on the
hairs and they and they give me love because it
was love. But this is what I gotta share with you,
which you know, Aretha Franklin, I mentioned to you a
prize fighter. It is true Whitney Houston's one of the
greatest of all time. But Aretha Whitney with Aretha Wreatha

(45:25):
was a little girl when her mother sang back up
on those hits with Aretha reada's a little girl, Whitney's
little girl around those sessions. So Aretha to Whitney is
like Auntie re read like, let us Auntie ree Red
so sweet like that. So here I'm gonna go with.
I'm sitting at the board. Whitney is sitting on the floor.
We get there early. She's on the floor. Time. You
can't read this here. She's just frost leg on the floor.

(45:47):
When Aretha comes to the door in her fur coat
and her prize fighter mode, like when the Narrow goes
into his modes to make his movies. Already in character.
She's in character to take this man or keep her man.
So she looks at me, she goes, where is she?
That kind of harsh like that? Where is she? Where
is she? Now? You throw me off? Where is she? Wait? Oh, oh,

(46:11):
you mean Whitney. She's right here on the floor. And
then she peers down and look at Whitney. You know. Oh,
so you're miss Houston and Whitney's life Auntie Reary. The
cast was spelt right there. The song would be like,
how are you going to take my man? How you
gonna even sing about taking my man? She put that

(46:33):
that that that thing on the right from the very beginning,
and from the very beginning we did the song. Whitney
is so effortless at that time with her vocals, she
did the most killer if I've ever heard her do.
And then she left because she could feel that it
wasn't a good vibe. And Retha stated, and Retha said,

(46:57):
go to that part of the tape where she said
she did that that cred thing. She didn't pushed me
in right after it, okay, And we did, and she
punched me out there again. Make sure I do what
I want to do, because she wanted to make sure
she was bringing her fire as strong as what we're
dead done, just effortlessly, and we did. And then when
she got what she won, which was killer, she left.

(47:19):
But then she called me up on the phone and said,
do you think I was too harsh today? Said, well,
you might want to give her. He a phone call, says, yes,
I will. She said I wasn't character for the song.
I said, I know you were, Damn. When you're in character,
I mean, you're like, you're like life to death. Man.
But that's the thing.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
I always see a duet as like a collaboration. I
never like I'm not thinking that like Michael Jackson and
Paul McCartney about to start brawling, you know, like I'm
an out sing you, you're out singing me. I think,
as the average listener, I wouldn't listen from the standpoint
of like who's going to win this battle? I'm thinking

(47:58):
of like how are they going to to create magic together?
It's so weird that how artists getting their heads. Well, wait,
I might as well throw one. One thing is because
if I remember correctly, I believe on that record the
opening song is James Brown and Aretha Franklin. Yes, how
how was that session? Because I've talked to Full Force

(48:19):
before about working with James Brown, and there's there's a
lot of puncheons and whatnot, like like.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
James, James was is my hero. You know, you're a drummer,
so you know the power of Cole Sweat, The power
Cole Sweat with what they put down was just like
so far ahead. If you want to be respected as
any kind drummer, you have to be able to play
Coled Cole Sweat. And so here I am in this
room with James Brown. You call mister Brown, You'll call
him James, mister Brown, and we had he said, I

(48:49):
want a few cards, And first of all, he thought,
where is she? He wanted to see Aretha. I said,
we she's not here. You're coming in and sing your parts,
and I'm gonna go to try but her parts. So
he was sad because you really had a kind of
a romantic thing in his mind about Aretha. Right, it'd
be great that the king and the queen came together.
And he was all there, you know. So we made
these big Q cards. So here I'm holding big Q cards.

(49:11):
You know, I'm kind of throwing away as he's singing
the song, throwing cue cards. But that's how he recorded.
And he's a killer just doing his grunts and his
stuff and then reading the Q card and kind of
being spontaneous. It was a killer session. I loved him.
I loved you. And also we had a I knew
he less like organ, so I have my organ in here.
You go and fill up with the organ play that
you need. Yeah I would, Yeah, no, I would, because

(49:34):
I know I make him happy. See and then he
will say, use the only one keeping the funk alive. Damn,
mister Brown, thank you for saying that, use the only
one chieving the funk alive damn Okay. So then I
went back and put Aretha on Andreatha killed it too.
He just wasn't meant to be. And Prince, you're bro
did the remix on that record? Did you know that right?
That's right? I okay, I heard I heard an outtake

(49:56):
of it. You are correct? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
I apologize for hogging this entire interview.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
Do you have any questions?

Speaker 4 (50:03):
I wanted to ask about the Temptations stay.

Speaker 3 (50:07):
I just thought that was just a brilliant move of
sampling my girl to make a new song. So tell
me about how that record came together and what that
session was like.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Man, I love the Temptations, Temptations four tops. That all
that movement out of the motown list is just staggering.
We're still learning from that catalog. We're still learning from
most people. We're still learning. We're still trying to be
half as good. That's what they put what they did. Man,
we're just so the work Temptations is a big deal.
And then Otis Williams is the only living memory when

(50:36):
I worked with him, and I loved his wisdom, so
it brought some out of me after I met with him,
to record some songs. It brought this out of me
to kind of go, what can I do that would
just really be something different? And I just God said,
you sample the beginning of My Girl boom boom boom

(50:56):
boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom, you know,
and put a new song on top kind of what
was coming out in New York. Again, you had a
lot of cats taking other records and putting different songs
on top. So it wasn't a new a brand new thing,
but it's a brand new thing to do for the temptation,
that's you know what I mean. So that's where did
stay tune the moon and Baby rock Me Slow like

(51:19):
I want to rock you on top of My Girl?
So I had to guess Wigie Robinson half the song
because he wrote my Girl no problem, and we got
to know the other half. And it became a hit
for us, and they got a platinum record band of
all those years here there plotum and then they're going for
the Grammy and all that stuff. So it made me
very happy. But that's what it was. I was just
really wanting to have a hit, and I thought, if

(51:40):
I take something old like a wedding, something old, something new,
that might be the thing. And it was.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
When you're approached about Mariah Carrey's first album, Yes, Now,
unlike Whitney Houston, which again nobody had a ankling of
a clue, what was headed down the road? Now that
you know that there's a standard a road to follow.

(52:11):
When Tommy and Donnie are bringing you Mariah Carey, are
they putting the invisible pressure on you to put some
numbers on the board, just like you did for your
other star student.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
Yeah, no, there are. We're not talking numbers, We're not
talking pressure. It's just the first folk call get from Tommy,
not Donnie. Donnie I knew from working with Clive. Now
he's over Sony, but I didn't even have a relationship
to him and Sony yet. So it's really Tommy called me.
He says, I found this girl and I want to
send you a picture and a song on her, and

(52:46):
then you know, and if you like her, let me know,
said he said, But don't mack my babe. Okay, all right,
I'm married. And the mail come was a little tiny
slide of her that big and a cassette. So I
listened to the casset and said, oh, yeah, she sounds

(53:07):
really nice, you know, so I let her know. You know,
she's whatever I'm hearing is cool. Would you fly to
New York come Meter? I said yes, I will, because
don't forget, Matola was a present for Sonya, now a
big lady. I knew if he had his attention on something,
it could be like something we really want to like
take serious. So here I go to New York, come Meter.
And in all respect Mariah, when I first met he

(53:28):
was extremely shy, not the Mariah you see now where
she's up front and talking and you know, and like
there's the she would have them hair on one side
of her face and talk to you with the hair
on one side of the face, very quiet. And I
would say, well, we're like, well, what do you what
artists do you like? You know? Oh, I like George Michael.

(53:51):
That's great. I just work with George Michael. You know,
just did that. I know you're waiting for me, So
I said, you know what, why don't we go? I
can hear you singing a Michae. Let's just go to
some studio and just not to sit on and talk.
Let's go and do some music. So we did. We
went over to Sony Studio, a mike for her, a
mike for me, and my friend wrote piano and we
wrote four songs. And I was surprised how fast she writes,

(54:12):
and then I was surprised how good she sings. Then
I was even more surprised that she could do like
a young Michael Jackson. Well, like, that's not easy to
be like to imitate a young Michael Jackson. She could
do that. Then it hit me who I was messing
with that it wasn't just some other whatever. How did
you discover the whistle? Because you unleashed the whistle to

(54:35):
the world. Well in honesty vision of love where she
goes it in that big whistle. She cut that vocal
on her own with her other cat. I didn't cut
that whistle. They had already cut that jam. Well, I
got with her. I did a jam called I Don't
want to cry, I don't want to cry, My bad,
my bad, okay okay, And then I got and then
we got into all that on that record, knowing, wow,

(54:56):
you know she could do it. So then we really
just perfected it and just got what she wanted. And
then I started realizing what a perfection she is. She
even had me send that tape back in your because
she wanted to fix on one riff, only send tape
across the country, well one rift, which already genius it was,
but we did. That's how I realized what her standard
was at that time. She wanted me so shy to now,

(55:18):
being like, send me the tape. So we did. We
got it back and it wasn't that much different, but
she was a damn killer. And then from there Tommy says,
what you're doing on these songs, I want Vision of
Love to sound like and the album. So then they
sent us Vision and then we just we went in
and made Vision little sound more just the track and
with her voice and everything like what we're doing on

(55:39):
the other music. That's what we did. And then she exploded. Man,
she just exploded.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
So is that part exhausting because you know, La and
Face said the same thing, jam and Lewis said the
same thing, which is basically, before you even work with
an artist, you have to go and get to know
them and spend time with them. Is there a situation
in which it was a struggle to get the artist
to be vulnerable, to trust you to okay, you.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
Know what I do? You know, Quesse, I got you.
You know, I did a quest. I pushed past it.
I ignore it. Try this, try that, try this so
fast they're off balance. Now before you know it, things
are just magically happening.

Speaker 1 (56:20):
What was the hardest song you had to cut? Like,
go back, recall it, recall it, recall a Lover for Life?

Speaker 2 (56:26):
Why wasn't happy with Lover for Life for Whitney? And
not because cut it great? But he had a demo
of it, and the demo had a bass rum pattern
on five, it wasn't in four. Kept changing. I thought
that wasn't going to be the way because you wouldn't
even land on one. So he cut it. I cut
it my way. I cut it in Needa Baker way,
I cut it defetd in ways you know. But he
couldn't get happy. I said, well, what is it with

(56:48):
this thing? You know? Was the demo? I love? But
the demo, just so you know, the base trump is
moving and it's not landing on down beach, which we
expect as listeners in a way, he goes, well, maybe
that's why I like it about that demo, that it's
kind of floating. I go, well, then let me do
that if that's what it is, and then he was happy.
He wanted the base to move around, so yeah, then

(57:12):
we got happy. So when you have the hardest song
was the hardest song. It was just discovering when people
like a demo and they liked something that working about
a demo, and you got to realize, what is he
like about that thing?

Speaker 6 (57:25):
You know?

Speaker 1 (57:27):
Wow, one of the most heartbreaking things. I think when
she passed away, I believe I heard you say that
you guys were considering cutting brainstorms.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
Loving is really my game. Yes, she was crazy about
that record. I didn't even know that record that much.
She was saying, yeah, yes, And I said, oh, I've
heard it just I love that record. Would you cut
it for me? Said sure, I will, honey, I dodn't
think you want me to do. And I cut it

(58:03):
and I cut it, and it was mean, it's in
my vault right now. She cut her vocals. No, so
I called this estate. I called down to that she
in Atlanta. Oh, well, she's just not feeling well. I
want to sing right now now, and now she's going
off to do it to it now she's doing it.
Would always be like something going on. I said, but
I'm bringing what she's asking for. Well, she just can't

(58:26):
do it. So we never could get her to sing it.
And then I saw her for the last time after
I cut it at one of those Clive things the
year before she passed, right, you know, and she came
and jumped on me. We just like hugged and kissed them.
Ran Jackson was a witnessing it. It's like, oh my god,
you know, and she just loved each other. And I said,
I got it. I cut what you want me to cut?

(58:46):
Oh I want to sing it? Yeah, I know, let's
do it. But it wasn't to be.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Yeah, man, Like Balita Woods of Brainstorm was like one
of the most unsung champions of soul singing. When people
think of Brainstorm, they think of this must be in
heaven for quiet Storm.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
But like Lovan is really my game was like that
was a thing, like I remember that when I was
a kid. But you but you have to say one
more thing. It was Whitney. Also, Sugists suggests that I
cut on every woman for Bodyguard. That wasn't Clyde, that
was Whitney. So she had a really good idea, you know,
of what she wanted to get into like that record
you love a brainstorm. So there you go.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
Ah, all right, I might as well asking, because I'm
not going to have an opportunity to ever again.

Speaker 4 (59:30):
What was it?

Speaker 2 (59:31):
What was it like working with with with Eddie Murphy
because you did push your mouth on me, love Eddie, Eddie.
Eddie came here man first, Yes you're in the video. Yeah,
I'm a massive Eddie fanh and and Rick James at

(59:51):
the Sauce Wield studio. You know they did the Parer
Party at the time. Wow, you know, they had massive success.
So Eddie was like swinging. It wasn't like some joke anymore.
I was like, you're you're recording artists, man. So I said, well,
what do you want to write about? What kind of
song you want to do? I said, you know, just
give me some inspression what you want to talk about?
And he said, put your mouth on me.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
Okay, but you me his version of kiss or something like, yeah,
that's the vibe.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Yeah, I figure, just vibe, just vibe. And we did it,
you know, and I loved him and he again all
those great voices in here, Michael, everybody, Elvis, pred anything.
He's just a gifted cat man and but very quiet
when he's not working that are discovered. Kind like Richard
Pryor these great comedians are very quiet when they're not

(01:00:43):
doing what they do.

Speaker 4 (01:00:44):
They live in their head. You gotta you know, you
gotta you know it makes sense.

Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
Well, this is my question. I just wanted to ask
about a song. It was on the last My Visional
album and you wrote called in My Life. Do you
remember about anything about that session of writing?

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
That was the most beautiful album done at Honky Chateau
in France, out in the country, and it was so
beautiful because we had this massive room and it was
like a kind of a barn in that the back window,
back door behind my drums could open so you could
see the whole comfry side out back behind my drums,
which took me more time to mic the drums and
get the sound I wanted because the openness. But in

(01:01:24):
that room was just so pastoral in the feeling. And
that's when we cut on that album, all this high synthesizer, guitar,
inner worlds and miles out. It was just like, oh
my God. After all that, then Vishnu said thank you
for the flowers and trees and just this beautiful little

(01:01:45):
thing now kind of chime on something, you know, whatever
I bring to it a little bridge area. But it
was really Vishnu that had that. Thank you for and
Harold King came to me make it Kunga's acoustic piano
completely opposite. Were just cut and you know, if it's
just something else, man, I gotta say about that guy, man, he.

Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
Said, no, man, we my group, my right group, our
little brother. We actually we sampled that song like and
we cleared it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:13):
And it was like literally at the.

Speaker 3 (01:02:14):
Last minute, we you know, had our people working on
this stuff, but we hadn't heard anything. And so a
buddy of mine had played with my vision in his band.
He was like, yo, man, I got his email, we
can try. I'm like, all right, I'll try. Jill emailed
and was like, hey man, this is my group. By
tell him what it is.

Speaker 4 (01:02:31):
He was on vacation with his family and he's like,
hey man, I'm on vacation, but you know, I think
it's great. You know, we'll do it, and and they
cleared it and so thank you man, like that was
a beautiful song and.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
Is there do you have a close but no cigar
moment in an artist he was supposed to work with.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
Not on work, but you know there are a few.
I met with Madonna and the album What Year Well
she had just made. I gave her those high heels
that she wore that it's not called Borderline, the yellow
high heels that those get from me. She can't visit me.
I picked up the airport in sant San Francisco. We
had a great meeting. She loves Stacy Lattisol. She loved

(01:03:11):
my music with Stacy, but she's hot on that kind
of vib And then she went to New York. But
a weekly she called said, you know what, I'm going
to stay in New York. I'm working now. Rogers said, okay.
She goes, I'm just loving New York. I go, I
get it. I get it. I get it because I
wasn't hopped about of here relaxing. You know. She goes.
Then she made lack a version. Damn you gifted in Borderline. Yeah,

(01:03:39):
it's crazy.

Speaker 8 (01:03:42):
I need my one two questions, and I just got
to pick your brain about a couple of names that
our viewers may or may not remember or no from
your early days as drummer. I'm a big CTI Records
Fan as people might know, Creed Taylor and you worked
with Alan Holdsworth on an album called Velvet Darkness in

(01:04:04):
nineteen seventy six.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
Do you have any memories of those sessions and Alan, Yes,
Alan asked me to come and record them as ct
and I. He's a guitar player, by the way, Yes,
he's one of the most brilliant guitar players in the world,
Alan Holdsworth, and we all know he's very sensitive. And
I go in there and on keyboards as a cat.
It was from Tony Williams band Ala Pasquad clavin at

(01:04:25):
keys and on basis from weather Port Alfonso Johnson, Oh wow.
And I go into with my drum kit. It's a
white gratch kid with the enameled double painted on the inside,
which sounds they aren't like vibes clear, but they're but
they're mighty like that would. And so then Alan starts
showing us these songs and as he saw it, shows

(01:04:47):
the song. Then we play the song and they would
cut it. Then we'd maybee cut it maybe a second time,
and that will be that. Then you know, we kind
of went thro those songs like that. In his mind,
he's thinking He's just kind of showing us the songs
and we're going to, you know, come back another time
or whatever you think. I don't know, but Creed Taylor
and Rudy van Gelo, the great engineer, they were loving

(01:05:08):
it and that was what they wanted to get, that live, fresh,
raw vibe. And then they wanted to put it out
and Alan wanted to do more, do more takes and
whatever you wanted to do, you know. So it's some
discrepancy between his got concept and maybe what theirs was.
But I was just doing what I was asked to
do and being paid to do whatever it was. So
that was the album. It came out, and I'm proud

(01:05:30):
of it. I'm proud of say I worked with Alban
was worth. Also, I want to say one more thing.
In that same room, there were two pianos, black pianos
that were owned by Rudy van geld with was a
great engineer that Herbie Hancock or silver these genius had
played on these damn pianos. And his wife had cancer,
so he needed some money, so he said, I want
to sell one of my pianos. I just made forty
thousand dollars with wired sales and Jeff Beck, so I said,

(01:05:54):
I'll buy one of these pianos, and I bought it
and that became my piano for letting be Angel everywhere.
I love all my hits on that same piano, So
that's part of that connection wise investment.

Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
Goddamn.

Speaker 8 (01:06:09):
You also played on a historic recording on a Jocko
Pistorius record with Sam and Dave and come on, come over.
Do you have any memories of that?

Speaker 2 (01:06:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
I do.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
Jocko and I have care friends from Miami. That's where
I first met him. That's why I suggested I bring
him to Weatherport. When I was asked journal weather Report,
I don't want to join with it, but I want
to go tyy Bowhen and do rock and rollet panel
the stage and go that way. And they said, well,
can you bring a baseball? And said, well, I know
a cat crazy named Jocko Florida, so Joe's I think
I've heard him. So we flew him out to LA

(01:06:40):
and he came and does this great gam called Canniball
and Black Market. He starts playing that song and add
all this stuff to because you so had so much ideas,
and then Joe stops in the middle and says, don't
put that shit on my song, and it kind of
freezes Jocko, you know what I mean. And what it
does is it makes Jocko come Jocko. Now he's more thoughtful.

(01:07:03):
Everything he plays puts it in the right place, and
people kind of go, damn. He is genius. After that,
he joined that band and made Weather Heavy Weather, with
a remark you made teen Town those great pieces. He
does a solo album and then because we're friends, he
has to me to come player, come on, come over.
And I went to place on top of a garage,

(01:07:24):
the home studio of the great drummer Bobby calling me
from Blood Footing Tears. He was a produce set album.
So this is his studio on top of the garage
where I played his drums, a royal horn, cats, Tom Malone,
those type people, and then the rhythm section all in
the same room with Jocko and Sam Moore. Maybe like that. Yeah,

(01:07:46):
it was live, just the funk, but didn't the funk,
you know, it's like one or two things. That was it.
But Jocko is mean in heaven right now you're looking down.
He's mean. He's like all lay on the base mean.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
My final question, because every hip hop producer will kill
me if I don't ask this. Because both you and
Ed Green are credited with drumming on Come Dancing. Who
is playing the actual breakbeat at the top of that song?

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
Is that you or Ed Green? Mean I wrote that song,
that I cut the song? Yeah, And then later on
when I heard on the record, after I bought the record.
Quite frankly, I heard ed greena on there and it
was cool because he just made a little even fatter.
They overdubed the moments, making fatter. It's like damn. I
In fact, in fact that all the Jon Hammer stuff,

(01:08:45):
all that stuff, I'm wired. I didn't hear any of
stuff till it came out and bought it. John overdubbed
all his stuff, ed bring it. Overdubbed this thing. That's
how it was. In fact, Jon Hammer didn mixed the album.
It wasn't even mixed by Beatle producer George Martin. It
was mixed by Yon because Jeff went up there and
fell in love. That's what you want to ad you sound,
and that's what it was. Man.

Speaker 9 (01:09:03):
So I started out boom Scott boom, Scott boom, boom,
Scot boom, boom boom Scott boom Scott boom book boom
boom bang. I don't don't gang a boom bump a
boom pump skany pump, oh bull skang a boom bum skag.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
I all that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:24):
Yeah, fans of a Balloon, Mind State and day La
Soul are very familiar with that drum break in.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
I had to ask that question. It's it's the song
they sampled on a area codes. Look.

Speaker 1 (01:09:36):
I have to say that very rarely does an episode
of Quest of Supreme.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
Go beyond what I thought it would be.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
And the fact that there's even twelve more hours of
questions I have for you shows how much of a god.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
You are in your creativity.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
And I just simply want to thank you for taking
the time out for these last almost two hours to
share these stories, man, because like the world doesn't know
how awesome you are man, and you know, I just
say thank.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
You, thank you, ques Man. I'm a fan of I
love your work. I love your brin's how you bring
a tuba in with your drums on the shows and
things like that. You bring these eclectic things. Wow, that's
keeping the funk raw Man, So dig you man would
love to work on something with you when I'm out
there next.

Speaker 1 (01:10:29):
We got to meet in person and shop it up
for something, so we'll definitely the same in contact.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
On behalf of the family of Quest Love Supreme, font Tigoelo,
super Bill.

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):
I'm giving them new names.

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):
Steve, Layah cousin, Jake and Brittany and Fontigelo and the
Great Narta Michael Walton. This is an awesome damn episode
of Quest Love Supreme.

Speaker 4 (01:10:54):
We've been waiting on this one for a long time. Man, seriously,
thank you for doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
Cats man, I really love it. This has been a
highlight for me. I knew it was coming, and uh,
you know, bag type of thing is that when you interviews,
you know, you want to make sure you're saying the
right things, that you're giving the love. And a lot
of our people were talking about and having the jockal
on that we through the Whitney's and they're looking down
and with us right now. Like what you say, man,
you better keep keep keep me alive. At'll be forgetting

(01:11:21):
about me now. I'll whoop you. We'll see on the
next go around.

Speaker 7 (01:11:26):
Thank you, hey, thank y'all for listening to Quest Love Supreme.

Speaker 6 (01:11:32):
This podcast is hosted by an alf Ro, a mouth,
a rapper, an engineer, and a man with too many
jobs aka A mere quest Love Thompson, Why are You
a Saint?

Speaker 7 (01:11:41):
Clair Fonte, Coleman, Sugar, Steve.

Speaker 6 (01:11:43):
Mandel, and I'm Table the executive producers who get paid
the big bucks A.

Speaker 7 (01:11:49):
Mere quest Love Thompson, Sean g and Brian Calhoun ask
them for money.

Speaker 6 (01:11:54):
Produced by the people who do all the real work
Britney Benjamin, Jake Payne and Yes, why you is Saint Claire?
And by another person who doesn't real work Alex Conroy
and those who approved the real work.

Speaker 7 (01:12:07):
Produced for iHeart by Noah Brown.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
Much Love Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio.

Speaker 1 (01:12:19):
For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.