QLS Classic: Faith Newman

Faith Newman is the A&R who signed Nas and helped create the runway for Illmatic. She joins Questlove Supreme to discuss her time at Def Jam, Columbia, and working with UGK and Too Short at Jive.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of Course Love Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio.
This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora
Yoya Yo, What up is this? Fonte Fontigolo here with
another q LS classic. This episode, we're taking it back
to January eighteen, twin even team with Babe Newman. Date

(00:21):
Newman is the an artice sign nos and he'll create
the runway for oh maatic. She joins the QULS to
discuss her time at def Jam Columbia and we're doing
U G K and two short ad jo it y'all,
Episode number eighteen of p ULS Fix Newman on the
ULS classic dog Suremau su Prema rod call, su Prema

(00:48):
so sul prima role call, Sufdremau Sulfremo role call, sul
Prima Suprema role call. My name is question, Yeah, that's
who I am. Yeah, gonna ask Faith new Man. Yeah,
all about Suprema road called, Suprema s Prima road call.

(01:14):
My name is Fante. Yeah, I'm in the place. Yeah,
I'm not George Michael. Yeah, but I just gotta have
Faith road Callma Suprema road call, Yeah, Faith new Man. Yeah,
they call me sugar. Yeah. The sex hit you man

(01:40):
I'm gonna punch Frema road car. No puncha Suprema road call.
I'm on hey Bill, Yeah, I can't get no better. Yeah.
Ready for eggnog? Yeah, Christmas sweaters road call, Suprema Suprema Road,
Suprema Suprema Road calls. Buss fuild the meanest. Yeah, it's

(02:04):
buss build the prettiest. Yeah, it's buss build the baddest
mofu down around this town. Suprema Road, Subprima Subprima rod call.
This is like ye yeah, working on the rhymes game. Yeah,
I don't know what I mean. Yeah, but I'm trying.

(02:28):
Why Roma su Prima role call. My name is Faith. Yeah,
I haven't rhymed since nineteen Yeah. Yeah now, Oh, Suprema
Road called sub Prima Supremo Road called Suprema Suprema Road

(02:54):
called Suprema son sub Prima roles. It's actually ironic that
we are in or in Barrack Street in the location
of the I guess the original I thought you were
going to go to death Cham. I was trying to

(03:14):
go to death jam, So def jam wasn't on this block.
The original original was on Elizabeth Street. I see, well
that voice you hear, ladies and gentlemen, is uh a legendary,
legendary voice. Um, what can I say about Faith Newman?
I mean she has She's been there for some of
your favorite moments in music. If you are a hip

(03:36):
hop hit, you know, if if if the Maroon to
Black Death Jam logo the original meant anything to you
in the eighties, in the nineties, Faith Newman was there.
Not to mention, uh, she spirit headed probably one of
the most debated and contested pieces of of of work

(04:01):
that has ever been in hip hop. I'm speaking of
Illmatic by Naas You've done so much more. Ladies and gentlemen,
give it up for Faith Newman. Thank you, thank you,
thank you. Welcome to our dungeon. How are you doing
to day, Faith, I'm doing okay, Man, Yeah, come to
my underground relation. When you hear that, normally I don't,

(04:24):
I don't kick off an episode with the song, but
when you hear that particular piece or just stuff from
that era, like, what's the first thing you thought of
when you heard? Well, you know, I started working at
Deaf Jam seven, so uh, you know, when I'm still
in college and it was just an amazing, amazing time

(04:45):
um just some of the best years of my life
were spent there. It was one of the first five
people at the company. First woman, right. I was gonna say,
if you were a woman in that ironment, I know
that you have to have the toughest skin of all time. Yeah,

(05:07):
because you're like what you're around, you were around in
that environment. Yeah. Well, you know, there was no sess
thing as hr HR department, was no trigger warnings, there
was none of that, you know. You know what's interesting though,
was that before Death Chair, I interned at Columbia Records
and six and yeah, and you can imagine what that

(05:32):
was like then you still I don't know if you
saw this show, um no, the one that got canceled
on HBO about the record thank you, Thank You, thank you.
It was like that like way yeah, yeah, yeah, one
and done yeah yeah. Next to me, damn, I was

(05:54):
actually I was into it. Yeah, I like that as well.
But but but those guys is you know in eighty
six that were in the had been in the record
business since you know, whenever the seventies were still there,
and that's where I got I experienced more harassment, you
know what I mean. And I feel like with hip hop. Though,
It's like, I never could have gotten a job at

(06:16):
Columbia unless I wanted to be somebody's assistant, you know.
But so you're you're saying that working at Columbia in
eighty six prepared you for the tough skin of the
battles that you would have to deal with. Yeah, you know,
it's funny, like I don't know if it's my youth
or whatever, how much I loved hip hop. It just

(06:38):
I didn't think of myself as a woman first in
hip hop. I just felt like, you know, that's kind
of how it was with everybody who worked at Death Chams,
Like we were all young and we were just totally
immersed in the culture. Were there any other women at
the time that maybe because you know, you were the
first at Deaf Jam, but there were there anything, There
were women at Rush. So what you had was on

(06:59):
an in Elizabeth Street. You had Rush management was on
the first floor, and you had Lisa Cortez and Heidi Smith. Ye. Yeah,
Cortez who went on to work with Lee Daniels and
she's doing great things to film. She she wants infamously
told the roots uh when we I believe that she

(07:22):
went to Mercury uh in nine alright, so something happened.
We were going to sign with Mercury, Like we went
out to dinner and all this stuff, and then like
there's a minor glitch in the contract that technically left
us free uh for like a weekend. And that's when
Wendy Goldstein came all this cash and Lisa Cortez was like,

(07:48):
I hope they take race relation classes over there, like
that was like her last like a you're gonna learn
today forget uh So, like was that your I'm trying
to pedal backwards before I go forward. But how did

(08:11):
you wind up in music? Your formed Philadelphia? I'm a
Philadelphia crowd. Philadelphia. I'm clapping alone. I mean I have
been with the last sixteen years. Okay, take it. You're
always all right, just no officially, like besides us being

(08:32):
born on the same day, you're always Philadelphia native. To me,
DC doesn't count. Yeah. Yeah, my booge spirit is down
thanks to the Philly Like you know, it takes you down,
brings you back up. Good. So you're you're girl. What
part of Philadelphia did you Northeast? Wow? Is this uh

(08:55):
fish Town? No? Northeast real Northeast, real Northeast, Bustleton Avenue, Okay,
Tominson Road, any of this sound of familiar film on
an okay boulevard? If you okay, what I'm saying is
back in Let's say if current day no no uh

(09:18):
status a mere Thompson where to be in that neighborhood?
Might I be greeted with some Louisville sluggers? Perhaps has
to relieve yourself from the northeast. Is the Northeast is special? How? Okay?
So I know me and knowing you personally, I know

(09:40):
that you're a soul music aficionado. How did that reach
you up in the Northeast? Because when I'm thinking seventies
and eighties Northeast, I'm thinking of like f I'm thinking
of the word yo yo, let's go get ahead. Yeah,
when you're from philly's the worst ever? It's so glad

(10:03):
I don't talk. Yeah. So, like, how were you no
pun intend it? Were you a black sheep of your Yeah?
I have a funny story about that. You want to
hear it? Um? Well, actually the reason was soul train Ah, Okay,

(10:26):
what was the reason that asked me? Why? I meant
your love for the show or just my love for
the music. It's just always had music playing in the house.
My my dad had this great, you know, fancy Real
to Real player and he would play a lot of
Ray Charles and the Birds, Credence, Clearwater Revival, like a

(10:47):
lot of bluesy stuff that I was always attracted to.
And then we should let our let our listeners know that.
M the seventies, the uh, Real to Real Player was like,
I mean that was the original MP three older even before,
like cassettes weren't even Yeah, well they bought you know,

(11:09):
you'd buy Real to Real um albums, get blank Real
and then record all the music he liked on that
reel to reel, so he just had three hours of
continuous music without having them put the record stack ar So,
so your your father would would listen to all these

(11:32):
songs on. Yeah, and there was always music playing in
the house, always on the house, always on the radio.
In the car Um funny story, I mean you asked
kind of how I was different. I Um, my grandparents
lived in North Philadelphia and yeah r f R y,

(11:57):
oh god, I mean they moved out in the seventies,
so you know, forties, fifties, sixties, and my mom went
to Overbrook there. Oh my goodness, y'all are yeah very integrated,
like yeah, but this this story, the funny story is

(12:19):
that I was four, I guess four or five, and
I was sitting on the stoop of my grandmother's house
and across the street, Um, these um activists, I guess
we're said, I don't know if they were black panthers,
I don't know what they were, but they were setting
up a table at handout literature and I thought that

(12:39):
they just looked amazing. They had these you know, big
afrows and just they seem so cool. So I went
out across the street just to hang out with them,
and UM, they said, are you lost? Which is you know, symbolic,
and um, yeah. So that was That was a funny story.

(13:03):
But um, soul Train was where I got my music from.
That was it every Saturday? Okay? And then pretty much,
I mean, what did you and I Philadelphia to make
your trek to New York. I started going to New
York when I was sixteen, so that I kind of
would sneak away. I would tell my mom is sleeping

(13:24):
at a friend's house, and I take the Greyhound to
New York and I go to the Roxy places like that. Finally, Yeah,
someone that's been to the Roxy, Yeah, it's peaked favorite
now the eighty two, what was What's what's the what's
the average environment of the Roxy? Because I think after

(13:46):
Studio fifty four, the Roxy has definitely fallen into the mythical. Yeah,
it was everything that I thought it would be. The
first time I went, it was like, how did you
hear about it? That's a good question, And I don't know.
I don't remember. I mean, I started listening to hip
hop when I was thirteen, and I heard it the
first time at the United States of America on Roosevelt Boulevard.

(14:09):
Damn USA. But it is the first time I heard
a rap record, which, of course you know, given you know,
it was in Philly and it was a rappers delight.
So that was a game changing moment for me. And
I found a friend from Jersey who would get cassettes

(14:30):
of you know, Funky four plus one and Angie B
and Spooney Ge and you know, all of this stuff.
And that's how I got my hip hop early on,
was through these cassettes, through from New York to Jersey
to Philadelphia. Really, so I've never heard of tapes making.
They made their way, well, they made their way to
my friend in Jersey and he got me the tapes.

(14:51):
So okay, so when you're going to the roxy, like,
what's I mean, what's the average night, It's like jelly
Bean Benita spending Like who was spinning? Bambardo was spinning
that night? Yes, So what what is his his method of?
I mean, can you described like some of the songs

(15:12):
you heard or whatever I heard? He would just go
all over the place that I heard one mixtape in
which he, for some weird reason, just stayed on the
hey Mickey of drum intro for like ten minutes though,
but it wasn't like but it wasn't like it was
in line would be like goooould you could you could

(15:38):
wow sound like sneakers in the dry wit That that
was the best analogy ever I ever heard, So any
of the folklore characters of actually like, yeah, well I

(16:01):
just remembered I I met Mellie mell and Scorpio and
I thought that was a really cool thing. And it
was the first time I saw rock Steady live. It
was like everything was happening at once. It was like
all of hip hop in this, you know, in this
little space and it was just you know, they're writing
graffiti on plexiglass, you know, their breakdancing. Um, it's actually

(16:25):
probably eighty three because Planet Patrol performed. That's what I
remember that. That's that. Yep, that's it with the crazy
cast and the hats all of it. Planet Patrol would
they'd start their shows looking like I can't even discuss

(16:47):
it was all I mean, it was like that. It
was like very like p funk the way they did
in sul Sonic Force did it. And it wasn't until
rand MC that people stopped, you know, even the Furious
Furious five had you know, I don't know what they
used to dress like. So did you dress like that
as well? Were you be girl? Were you the prototype

(17:08):
cool white girl in the circle of black? I was?
I was. I was a big girl, okay for sure,
And then later on I was really like when I
said that I haven't wrapped since eight six, like that's
for real, Like I was in a rap group and everything.
So what was the name. Well, I have to preface this,
you know, so it makes sense. Remember Calvin Coolers. Yeah,

(17:28):
they came in a four pack, not a six pack. Yes,
your name was a little four pack. Her name was
four pack. There were four of us, get it? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
I got to google that. That's you know, Calvin Calvin Coolers. Yeah,
I never heard of, never heard of anything. Used to

(17:49):
always about it. That's why it is cool. Yeah, I'm late.
I'm sorry. It's funny though. I just didn't now got
the reference because I've heard. I knew it from the
cane round, but I didn't know it was an Actually, wait,
who are the who are the two old white guys
that used to sell the James? I remember them? Yeah,

(18:10):
but they're like hard lemonades now, Mike's hard lemonade. So
for a non Draco like me with wine, Cooler had
been like the perfect. Yeah, yeah, it's just some sweet
diabetic black shop. No, I mean you know black but
like we like you know black folks ordering ordering the

(18:31):
ordering moschottle. It's the sweet t of of one. Yes, yes, yeah,
any kind of wine. Cool. It's like why they stopped
making it because I would have been the perfect. I
would know they're still make it's just marketed towards like
you know, freshman in college. Wow, like bone. So wait
when Bruce Willis was saying who were they returning to

(18:56):
the black folk. I don't think I think it was.
I think it was the thing where it was unintended consequences,
like how most upscale white products like they you know, right, Christal,
how we grabbed it. Yeah, we're grabbed. It's like, oh damn,
we need him for them names to get that. But
he's like, no, we made polo, we made chaps, so y'all,

(19:18):
n I wouldn't post the polo, but you know it
happens really like sneakers in the drive anyway, So damn.
I forgot how we got on this tangent But tangent
on four pack now one of the name of the

(19:41):
group pack the name of our group. All right, So
what was your actual name in the group four pack?
My actual name? Yeah, oh man, you're not going to
get that at all. Come on, we got this supreme
pa oh lord exclusive exclusive. Give us the other girl.
We won't send you to HR we promised, promise. Does

(20:04):
not know what it is you ever told him? I
must have told him it was M C. Fortune. Wait
who are the other three though, Rammy S, D and
C Money. That sounds like medical conditions. Are they in
the business now, okay, were you guys like seriously trying

(20:27):
to get a deal or we were you know, we
were just so like I said, immersed in the culture
that it just seemed like this natural extension, like let's
just have a group. And we went in the studio
with the L A posse waiting. Yeah, I was on
I'm on the bigger and defferent album. What what what's on?
What's on? I don't know? The go l L go

(20:48):
and let's get no no, and let's get let's get
when you were still working at DEFAM. I hadn't started
working with def Jam until late I didn't start working
until till late seven. No, okay, but you started working
at def damn when that album came out, so back
then you were still pursuing. It's just it was like

(21:11):
a half it isn't really what I wanted to do
was yeah, we're four white girls. And Russell didn't see
this at one point. Was it was a marketing were
the new the female? Like? Did he know about the
I don't think he. I don't think he even knew.
It was a short lived part of my life. Were

(21:34):
you guys good, we're trying to tapes? Is there a
performance or union tour, were putting together. We're putting the
band back together, putting the bag on to them before
my ads from all let you did. But that was

(21:55):
the first time I saw Todd without his hat on.
That was interesting. I don't think I saw that to like, yeah, no,
I got a sneak peek. Quincy Jones told of a
story where he brought LLL to Bill Cosby's house for
dinner and llos hat on, and you know, Bill Cosby said,

(22:20):
you know one of the Cosby things like, well, in
this house, young man, we take our hats off, and
so ll O, like all embarrassed, took his hat off,
and then Bill looked at his head. It was like, okay,
so where do you put the rap group? Just put

(22:43):
that in a little you know bubble that Well, no,
you you were? I was? I was, Yeah, was this
when you were going to college? Or yeah? I was
in college? And why you correct? Where's your major? Marketing?
Did you know? Uh Gina? Or was that to Gina Krishawn?
She wanted in the n YU and told me, Gina

(23:05):
Kerson is the second person I know that has uh
neglected her finals like her college finals to pursue her
actual dream. The other person is uh Ursula Smith said
to run. Uh. Gina told me that she was running

(23:27):
late to her her very final test that she had
to take to get her degree, and Andy Warhols um
stopped her um and said, you know, you must be
in my video. I think he was directing a video
for the Cars and he wanted her immediately. So it's
like do I go to do I take this final

(23:49):
and get my degree or do I do this Cars video?
She did the Cars video and the same story with
with Ursula Smith. Um Ursula was what she the official
Rush publicists by the uh not yet Layla. So Layla
was there when it so Layla bar I know that.

(24:13):
Um she there was a group or Tommy Boy called
Information Society, Yeah running and it's like one of Stevie
I needed you like everything over Planet Rock. That's sort
of Stevie bs exactly. So she uh she had brought

(24:39):
Information Society to a college in Houston like part of
a spring fling thing and all she had to do
is take her finals. And they asked her like after
the show, you know, we don't have a tour manager
or something like would you travel with us? And but
they're like now, like in an hour, and she took

(25:02):
the opportunity. She didn't take her finals. She just packed
everything and left college and went on tour. I was
going to leave and and Rick said that I should
finish because I had one semester to go. Was Rick
Rubin at n y U at the time or no, Like,
was he actually or was that just folklore that he
just lived there? And yeah, so he was a student there. Yeah, okay,

(25:26):
but by the time I, you know, came aboard UM,
he had you know, he was living in Elizabeth Street building, Okay,
because I'm just on the impression that Rick Rubin lived
in the ny U dorms like during this whole period.
And I'm like, well, when when was he actually in college? No,
because he graduated, he would have had to graduate in

(25:48):
eighty four, Okay, yeah, okay, that makes sense. And I graduated.
So so like when did you well, you did h
Columbia first? Correct? So actually, my first first internship was
with a company called Select Records. Remember Select Whistle Real

(26:12):
Rocks six summer eighty six, al right, when that lethal
record was coming. So what did you do at at Select?
Um made phone calls for you know rady like for um,
I don't know the retailers. How big? How big was

(26:34):
the company? Then it's about the size of this space
we're in right now. How many employees? Um full time
employees four including you know, not including me? So four
and a half, yeah and half four four pack. So okay,

(26:54):
so you left Select to go to Columbia. Well, yeah,
was this well I think Terrence was there. What was
their big eighties six moment for you? Beside Gregory Abbott?
You just woke Steve up from the day the original
Mark Morrison. I want that by my mother, Steve, you know,

(27:24):
shaky down. No, I don't, girl, let me tell you
about you look like tubs from Minami Vice. No, he did,
he did, he did. Wasn't Philip Michael Thomas on Columbia? No,
that was Atlantic. Eddie Murphy was on Columbia. Yeah. Did
you read that Prince story with Eddie Murphy? He was
on Columbies right. Well, okay, the thing about Sugar Steve

(27:48):
is he is he's the black yacht rock expert. Didn't
you didn't you do a book reporter on like on
the Wings of Lover or something? Yes, yeah, play it.
That's my joint it. I can wait, why did you

(28:10):
do a report on on the wings? A low? Okay,
so the story was there was it was actually called
it wasn't a report. It's called a rollout. It was
for a music class in middle school junior high as
we call it. And um, basically you had to you
had to draw the lyrics and then and then as
and then and then you get in front of the class,

(28:31):
you play the song on radio or whatever, and then
you slowly roll it out. That's what I called rollout. Yeah,
what did you go to smoke a lot of Yeah,
you have grades. So so anyway, you you get in

(28:54):
front of class and you slowly roll it out while
the music is playing so that you see the lyrics
in drawing. And so you know, the guy, the music
teacher says, choose a choose a song that you love
and and use that as your as you rollout topic.
And yours was on the wings. A little matter of fact,
you can you describe your oh please? So um So

(29:22):
the day of the rollout comes and and uh, I'm
sitting in the class and the first the first the
first student goes and he chose like led zeppe on
or something. The next guy comes in, it's deep purple.
And next guy comes in, it's you know, black Sabbath
and uh. And then Steve walks up there and and

(29:43):
I knew right there I had made sort of a misjudgment,
but I had to follow through it. But it turns
out that um, I got an a in it because
the music teacher I was black. No, he was gay

(30:09):
man from downtown. All right, So Gregory Abbot at Columbia,
you know that Jeffrey Osborne would do that. Is was
so disappointing to me, you know, from love Balad And
let's see. The thing is is that you whether you
want to admit it or not, I mean your hip,

(30:32):
but you're a suit. I mean you're not the artist.
I mean at a label, you're either going to be
the artist or you're gonna be the suit. Now, I mean,
what were the conditions at a record label that told
that particular artist that I need to cross over? And

(30:58):
and when for survival? Was sick? I don't. I don't
think people cross over just for you know, just for
the joy of it. I think it's it's no, it's
a calculated decision. It's like some sea No. Absolutely, And
I mean particularly in the eighties. I mean that was
at the time where you had like a lot of

(31:18):
black artists. I mean they was making like that fucking
ABC Friday Night music, you know what I mean, like
sucking Stir it Up by Patty and then the Sisters,
yea Friday night network that it was exactly so exact

(31:44):
Pink Catil. Well, then again we didn't. We did learn
from Chef Gordon that, uh that black artists really weren't
making money on tour, right, so records was there there,
there's soul means of of you know, generating income. So
you didn't have a hit, I mean, and I guess
if you're watching Thriller, right, you know, you two would

(32:10):
say like, oh, I want my piece of the pie
as well. Yeah, but Harold Fault may come on, let's
go on the studio, right, So yeah, well he had
one hit though, Yeah, maybe the Abbot songs. So maybe
maybe I did hear it. Yes, you definitely heard you
heard it, heard down it was the number one hit. Yeah,

(32:31):
it was there. It was the original trying to Ma
for really it was turned of the Mac was funkier
than that, I mean just in terms of the Yeah,
those wait Who's hidden on soft It would have been

(32:52):
it would have probably been Springsteen, right, Yes, that Bunny
Tyler record, remember that one was besides there and that
the album and Big Audio Dynamite remember them? Yeah? Who?
Of course Costella put out two albums that year on Columbia.

(33:14):
So at the time you were working at so you
didn't get to choose what department or No. I got
stuck in um dance music promotion. That's where they put me.
Who was you, like you supervisor? Who was this woman
Gayle bruce Wits? She was the only female in the
promotion department, And you know, the last day of my
I would sit in her office. You know, I'd look

(33:35):
at all the plaques on the wall and I'd be
like me, it's going to be me very soon, and
I'm going to have this and I'm going to have that.
Who did you have to look up to back then?
Was Sylvia Roonne? The only one that was remotely about
to win? Well even in six she was still yeah,
not an executive reception, No, there was really no reception.

(33:55):
Probably not okay anyway, So the last day of my
intern and ship, um, I'll also in that time, I
turned twenty one, and I had a big birthday party
and run d mc came and Houdini and the Beastie
Boys and so how do you how? Because I was

(34:16):
I was out in the clubs and you know, and
I had met Russell totally randomly walking down Bleaker Street
with a guy from London Records who knew Russell because
London used to distribute def Jam before they went to Columbia.
And so Mike, my friend Mike, introduced me to Russell,

(34:36):
and you know, my mind's going like, you know, a
million miles a minute, like this is your moment, this
is your chance. You better fucking talk your ass off.
And like so I said, he asked us to sit down,
and I just like went in on every liner note
I had ever read every artist, producer, musician, everything, and
you know, and he looks at me and he's like,

(34:57):
what do you do? Said? You know, I'm in school,
and he's like, how do you know so much about
black music? I was like, well this, you know, I
grew up listening to this and that, this and that.
He said, you know, I would, I'd hire you for
my company, you know, if I could so stay in touch,
and you know, and you did. You bug him until

(35:19):
I didn't. I didn't, you know, I didn't bug That
was like the summer of eighty six and UM I
did the internship and you know, I guess the story
was going to tell was the woman who I interned for.
UM asked me to come into her office and she
closed the door and she started crying. Yep, and she said,
stay away from this business. It's no place for a woman.

(35:43):
I'm trying to save you. Now before you you you
experience any real heartbreak like I experienced, Like, oh shit,
you're crazy. Now let it out. What what do you
mean without naming names or whatever, like what treatment? What

(36:03):
is the environment at a major label? The major label
of the moment? Yeah? Yeah, he had just left and
I'll Teller was the president at the time. So that
between between yet Nikoff and Mantola came in eight seven, right,

(36:24):
I'm not sure, I think so. So that was a
very short that was like six practically. Yeah. Wait, why
did yet Nikov get dismiss I I don't know. I
thought he was part of the whole you know, pay
for play thing that got that everybody got caught up in. Yeah,
well has that ever stopped? No? No, I thought I'd

(36:47):
told you that we won't stop. Can you talk about that?
That's interesting being a woman in the time, starting as
an intern and then the trans transition to being the
first woman at depth Jam didn't make a difference. Yeah,
it made a huge difference, because you know I so
in April comes of eighty seven, I come home from school.

(37:09):
Notary refrigerator Rick Rubin called, I think it's a joke.
I asked my roommates this for real? He said, yeah,
I think it is called Rick. He said, yeah. You know, um,
everybody at Columbia thought you were great. Russell really likes you,
and we know you're really smart. You want to come
work for def JAM just like that? So I said sure.

(37:31):
He said, do you want to know how much you're
gonna make? I said sure, okay, so school me at
least before you get to deaf Dam. What's what's what's
the average pay salary? Like? Oh, I don't know. They
started me at eighteen thousand a year deaf Jam seven

(37:51):
and you were living in I was living in on
the in the village on Sullivan Street between Bleaker and
West third and a fifth floor walk up with other roommates.
It didn't matter it didn't matter. I would have paid
them to go work for them. I didn't care. Really, Yeah,
what what was it about def Jam at the time?

(38:11):
That jam was Jam was everything? I mean, look at
the artists that they had, and you know, it was
you know, it's a cliche, but it's true. I mean
people would go into the store, you know, and if
its music factory or wherever it was, and there's a
def Jam logo on that vinyl, you buy it. You know.
I have questions about that though, about the def Jam label. Yes,

(38:33):
it didn't. It didn't. That didn't sustain I'm saying at
that at this particular moment in time, you know, Okay,
well no, I'm but what I want to know is
just what was it that made her warn you? Ohh
those guys were scumbags. They were awful. They were you know,
I would get hit on constantly by you know, it's

(38:56):
other promotion guys. Again, it's like the characters and vinyl
only real life left over from the seventies still, you know,
and that that mindset at the total misogyny that's you know,
So at any point did they did you did they
use you as a focus group? Like, Hey, what do
you think about this guy and it's like Terence and

(39:18):
Derby or you know, like they didn't ask me anything.
I was stuffing envelopes, going there like Latin Quarter. You know,
it's like doing my own thing. It was just it
was enough for me to realize that this is what
I wanted to do with my life, but I was
going to do it differently. So what I was experiencing
at a major label, what were your duties at def Jam? Then, um,

(39:40):
it started off with them wanting to start a publishing
company and neither of them knew how to do it.
So they wanted me to go sit with people who
worked for publishing companies and figure out how it worked
and then come back and start one for def Jam,
which is what I did. And then so you had
to learn it on the spot. I learned on the spot.

(40:02):
I sat with lawyers and publishing executives and you know,
my big earrings, my top spot builds. I should give
you a good visual. That definitely gave me a good

(40:22):
But by the time you got the Depth Jam, the
treatment was different. Right because you said that you said
the guys were a little bit, they were worse. We
were all like around the same age, you know, So
there wasn't that weird thing of like these older dudes
and younger females. You know, we were all and it
was just it was just a different environment. I think
we all felt like we were and again not to

(40:44):
sound like a cliche, you know, but that we were
really part of something special. That your your your jacket.
I got my jacket right away. I got the black wool,
black wool. Yeah. Yeah, for those that don't know, um
in nine uh the deaf jam logo on your back

(41:11):
that that held wow, that helped power like no other
mm hmm. Well you know again, I'm saying it like
I've lived it, which clearly I wasn't there. But was
it like a limited number of giving out like and
only certain you got to be a point in management
or something like that, like you just see how to
actually work for the company and just be maybe one

(41:32):
step removed from working for the company In turns too, No,
I don't think interns got jackets. I don't think we
had interns. We weren't enough of us. There's only five
of us. We didn't need who needed interns? But what
was the power of the deaf jam jackets that could
get you like Chase down the street demos everyone else

(41:57):
I talked to. He's like, yeah, I can get any
night glove whatever. I didn't think about that. I was
already like able to do that. So so you wouldn't
pip like you wouldn't wear that jacket as your your No,
I didn't need to. I already in terms of all
the clubs and stuff, I was already looped in so
and established. Okay, So you so you started their publishing

(42:21):
company for them? Yes, I know that was something that
had to be established or even it doesn't. It just
they thought of it as you know, another money making
opportunity for the company that they weren't taking advantage of
and other people were, and that's what they wanted to do.
So they wanted to start their own motown version of
the Joe bet or Yes, exactly. So did that mean

(42:43):
all the def Jam artists had to sign their publishing
over to def Jam? That was that was the the intent. Yes?
Did that happen? Okay? Because the artists were like, write
the hell out of here, right, Artists at that time
had to turn needs and things like that. You know

(43:08):
the concept of original concept was it? Were they a
DJ crew with all the advertisements I saw. It was
like stressing that you know, they're at DJ outfit with
some mcs, like yeah, that sounds right. Well it was
with Dr Dre from from TV raps and T Money.

(43:30):
I forget the other I forget there are other names too.
Damn Faith, I know, I'm sorry, it's thirty years ago.
You made me feel bad. What were you doing in nine? Okay? So,
but there's there's no story or recollection of I mean,

(43:52):
at one point at that def Jam building, the heat
got turned on as far as like, you know, that
was funny you should say that because we didn't have
any heat in that building really literally, so it was great.
We had to wear our troops jackets you know, really yeah,
and to win until we moved out of that building out, Like,

(44:16):
at what point are you promoted to doing A and
R um? Well also, well, aside from the publishing thing,
also kind of I set up the whole like A
and R ADMIN part of the company that didn't exist
prior to it was like there's five of you though, right, yeah,
So it was me doing creating the admin. I learned

(44:40):
to talk to lawyers and people at labels and figured
it out so it's just the learning curve. But by
this point, like, isn't CBS part of the Yeah? Yeah,
we were distributed and I spent a lot of time
up in Columbia. Did they give you, guys your own
cubical section or you No, we always come up to

(45:00):
their building to use their resources and yeah, just too
Yeah exactly. Okay, so how do you how do you like,
how do you establish that admin this stuff? I don't
even know that you should be doing now, Like I
didn't know that well, there was no like a PO
system for the studio, so the studio costs were like

(45:24):
out of control. Nobody was really monitoring it. So there's
a lot of the company just kind of bleeding money
in a lot of places because nobody was like minding
the store. So it's up to you to handle up
to me to handle the business of death jam. Yeah,
and you took that initiative on your own. Yes, you
just got tired of studios like you guys held me
sevent well. The guy who was supposed to be handling

(45:47):
a lot of this stuff. Um, one day Rick called
me upstairs and said, um, this was I guess I
had been there for four months and he said, Um,
I'm giving a promotion, I'm giving you a raise, and
I'm firing George, and I want you to take his job. Yeah,
did you have to fire George? I didn't have to
fire George. Rick hired Rick fired George, and um, and

(46:11):
that's how I started doing all that the admin stuff
that he hadn't been doing. He was, you know, too
busy doing other things. So is this is where bigger
and defor enters the picture? H yep, all right, now.
I know that a big part of Rick's disdain for
that follow up record one he didn't work on it,

(46:33):
but too he hated I need love. Now when you
guys are getting your daily report, assuming that you guys
are operating like a real record label where you listen
to daily reports and listen to new music, and this
is where we are with the LLL record. Are you

(46:54):
guys in the room at the same time where they're like, yo,
this is the one? Like what are y'all thinking? I
wasn't thinking that it was the one. I think Columbia
was really a big part of pushing that. Really, that's
interesting because I read somewhere that you said you're a
very melodic type person. So a lot of these songs.

(47:14):
In my mind, I thought, were you the one that
became the voice of women in a way that Okay,
so you know how they say they are women female records,
you know, the ones with the hooks that you can sing.
So before you entered the room, was there nobody? Was
there anybody who thought like that, because I would think
that I need would have been one of yours. But yeah,
I mean to me, you know, I was like a

(47:35):
real hip hop head, so it sounded you know to me,
it sounded corny to me really, but you did see
the dollar signs like, Yo, this is gonna win real ballot.
Yeah for the ladies. Yeah, yeah, up to that point,
you didn't really have well it's not true, no, I

(47:59):
mean he had that one too, and I can give
you more, but it was to beat. It was to
beat heavy like I can give you more. Still got
played on like the street hip Hop hour of you know,
of Philadelphia. So you know, it's wow, that's amazing to me.
So you just you had Lukeward not even I'm not

(48:21):
saying did you personally like it? Did you think it
was going to be effective to help the products sell
or did you think, oh, he's losing his he might
lose his credibility with us. That's what I thought. Word. Yeah,
But I was a purist, so I didn't even know
that there was such well not even I mean, hip

(48:48):
hop wasn't selling out back then. This was the first.
This was the first risky like this, this song with Mark,
the first risk of the compromise of hip hop. But
I don't think I think it was selling out back
then because you know, I don't. I don't think that
the pot of money wasn't as big as it was

(49:10):
back then, you know, as it is now, you know
what I mean. So I think, like particularly with LLL
in particularly I'm reading. I think it was in his
book or something. He was saying something to the effect
of when he was younger, like he would like this
movies and people who did movies or whatever. And when,
of course, you know, knowing where he went to his
movie and TV career, when they checked asked him on it,
he was said, well, the reason why I did it

(49:30):
was because I didn't think it was possible for me
at the time. So like in eighties six, I think
it was a much more risk of quote unquote selling
out back then because the stakes weren't really as high.
It was kind of like, I don't think no one
knew that there was that much money rapping duke. Yeah,
those were novelty records though you know what it is

(49:53):
that it wouldn't have mattered because radio wasn't gonna play
hip hop anyway exactly. I don't know when I Okay,
So I think Brian cut creator's cousin, uh went to
my high school, and so he had an early copy
of Bigger Than Deffort. And when I first heard I

(50:15):
Need Love, like and again, I wasn't thinking in terms
of the future, like I straight played your Eyes that
John and wrote down every lyric, gave it no I
was the man for like a month and a half.

(50:36):
Why does it sound so yeah? Yeah, I don't think
it was because I mean I remember when that record
came out, and I was just so happy to hear
hip hop on the radio that it didn't you know,
you know, I remember, I remember I'm Bad the first
time I heard him bad, and I was like, oh ship.
But then I Need Love and I was like, oh ship,
they're playing this on the radio because it was number

(50:59):
one for two weeks and billboards, Uh, the I called
it the black Charts. Then yeah, I was like yeah, yeah, wow. Alright,
so once once it catches fire and you realize that
we're all gullible. But then what were you thinking? Mm hmm?

(51:22):
I was thinking, Um, I was thinking, I was glad
I was on the album. So you thought that there
could be a chance that this album might not do
as good as Radio. I think it became clear that
that wasn't going to be the case. It's going to

(51:44):
be much bigger, all right. So because all these doors
were open to him, were those doors open to him?
Was it just the or was it just a perception
in my mind that the world was his oyster? Like
I remember you telling me that, you know, what was

(52:05):
the what was the rat budget for l Local Jay's
follow up out? Like what's for Walking with the Panther? No? No, no,
I mean for bigger and bigger? Like I remember you
telling me that, like you know all the l A
pot First of all, why was the l A Posse chosen?
I don't know how that happened. Was just always out

(52:26):
in Callie a lot and hooked up with them? And
why didn't Rick Rubin get chosen to produce the next record?
I don't know. I think he thought he wanted maybe
he wanted more artistic control, he wanted to be somebody
he brought into the mix. I'm not sure really, but

(52:52):
like there wasn't anyone at the label to tell him,
like yo, Like, I don't think Rick wanted to do it,
not broken, don't. I don't think Rick her to do it. Really. Yeah,
it's not strange to you. Yeah, it's really strange to
me now looking back on it. Yeah, Okay, when we

(53:13):
get rickcruping, that's exactly where I'm asking him. Why didn't
you follow up? Yeah, I mean this all happened, you know,
this whole thing went down in eight six before I
got there. So Rick was also busy doing like Slayer
records and stuff. He was really into his death metal ship,
you know, Danzig Slayer in fact, you know when I

(53:33):
had my interview with him, my first when he called
me and he said, will you come, you know, come
and we'll talk about the job. And so I went
to him, and uh, I was, you know, I just
had so much I wanted to ask him, as so
much I wanted to say, and I was talking about
different records, and he said, you know, I'm not really
into like the hip hop thing right now? Really damn

(53:59):
he pulled, yeah what he said, and he and he
told me about these these these you know, these metal
acts that he was working with. He came back, why
your heartbroken? It took like so that's so that's why
I say, I think that he was just in a
different mind state. And like I think from what I've read,
like there was just a lot of tens between him

(54:20):
and Russell and he was just starting to lose a lot,
lose interest in the hip hop thing at all. Yeah,
that's absolutely correct. And he told me as much. So
just a phase. Who's the guy you just yeah, I see.
So of course you come aboard after the License to ild.

(54:41):
I thought that perhaps maybe the after effects of License
to Ill and this is well, I mean, at the
time it sold at least seven eight million, so I
would figure that would single handedly give you, guys the
juice monetarily at least too stand on your own two

(55:01):
and were you to sign everything, um so the again,
I have these romantic visions of the perception of Nation
of Millions as the first album I got thanked on. Well,

(55:22):
that's the first rap album with real liners that I've
ever seen the album that I feel is though really
at least got the rock critics attention as far as
really I mean the message. The message as a single
did some you know, did some work and helping to

(55:47):
make hip hop credible in the eyes of rock critics.
But um, I mean, if you were around and aware
of music journalists in you saw nothing like the uple
effect of what Nation the Millions had on rock critics.
I think that particularly year it topped the Passing Job

(56:10):
Critics poll. The Passing Job is kind of the the
music critic version of what I would deem rotten tomatoes,
where you just sum up in total every music critic
across the country. They give their top ten lists and
reasons for why they felt these albums were important. And uh,

(56:32):
Nation Millions was the first hip hop record I believe
in the album to top the polls. Um So at
the time when you guys are getting this, I've heard
a lot of stories that including well DMC told me
that it was him and jam Master J that even

(56:52):
allowed Rebel Without a Pause to beat because Russell hated
Rebel without a Pause. I'm assuming again and that you're
saying that Russell's taste and Rick's tastes work very different. Well,
I mean that's the story. You know, it's a true
story that that Russell never liked Public Enemy from the beginning,
and I thought that they should be, you know, wearing

(57:14):
Adidas sweatsuits, and you know, he just had his own
vision of what it should be, and Rick had a
had another vision. It's just crazy to me, like, how okay,
how you see like three white kids from Brooklyn and
you see dollar sign but you can't see that you know,

(57:36):
this this crew from Long Island. Well, I mean, yeah,
I guess if on paper a group from Long Island
could be the most political important group of of our time,
and you just don't see how that works. Public Enemy
was probably I can't see them being a very tough sell.
It was scary sounding, it was noisy, it was it

(57:57):
was it was some radical ship. And they're black, Like
maybe if they were white would be easier sell for
Wrestle since he is black. Sometimes we get in our
own way, right, I don't know. Well, yeah, but I'm
just saying that for me, I just I thought there
was an instant easy sell because the way that Chuck
d kind of centered the group, which I mean when

(58:20):
I saw them, I didn't that's I mean, I'm not
saying I didn't pay attention, but only when when too
much posse came on. And then I realized, wait, one
of these guys talks way more ship than the other members.
I couldn't tell, Like you see the album cover, you
to see like six black guys, you're like winter, which

(58:42):
one is talk? Who was the one? Right? But I noticed, like, wait,
one of these guys talks way more shift than the
other guys doing this group. And then that that became
my attraction, Like anytime the ship talking one spoke, it
was funny and so but that was my design, like
they perfectly, Yeah, it was the full flame. Was they
used flavor Flavor the story about Public Enemy because somebody

(59:05):
recently said that to me that everything was so purposeful
and the way that the group was put together, Is
that true? Like, and how much was it purposeful and
how much was just organic? I think a lot of
it was very purposeful. I think, well there was you know,
they had the they had the radio show, you know,
and that's how Chuck w Yeah, and that's how Chuck

(59:28):
connected with Flavor. So that was organic. That was before
they kind of actually started the group Spectrum City Spectrum City. Yeah. Um.
But the whole idea of adding the S one ws
and the whole thing that was that was you know,
that was show business. It was smart. It was very smart.
Well this leads to all right, before we get to

(59:48):
your colymbia illmatic period um, one of my favorite stories
of all time. If I'm the reason why I even
wanted to do the show, It's just though that one
day MC search could come on a guy who has
so many stories of yes, sorry I search, so Cordner Search, Um, Hammer,

(01:00:17):
here's uh his mom's being called out like that. Uh.
Pete and Ice was trying to explain to Hammer that
it was a pun of turned his mother out, the
cactus turned Hammer's mother out. But Hammer was the Yeah,
what was the good way of looking at Well? Anyway,

(01:00:40):
they put a hit out on their lives, and I
guess the legend never put hit out on third basis. Yeah. Uh.
And so as Search gets on the plane, Search and
Pete and Ice get on the plane. I think they're
flying out to l A to do the party Machine,
which is our senior halls post shown people's Yes. Yeah,

(01:01:08):
Mrs Howard Hewitt. Yeah wait what wait were you around?
Oh they got married right, didn't have a kid? It
was like yes, yeah, anyway, So the five hour duration
of this flight. I'm not going to give the entire

(01:01:28):
story away because search will tell a way better than me,
but there was a lot of kumbayan and having you know,
to go on uh to keep them from getting killed,
which ended with Michael Conceptio h sitting sitting next to

(01:01:49):
Yeah in his wheelchair, sitting next to Michael Jackson, who
wasn't even supposed to be If you remember the American
Music Awards with when Eddie Murphy Michael Jackson are giving
each other like Artists of the Decade Awards whatever. None
of that stuff was ever supposed to happen, So I
guess Russell since that the threat to their lives was

(01:02:11):
so big that Russell called Donnie and Tommy please make
something happen, And of course, in talking to Michael Concepti,
I'm the only person that could put the halt to
the hit. One of one of his stipulations was one
find me a label to do We're all in the
same game, which is weird because Russell could just easily

(01:02:35):
said I'll put it on my label, but instead of
Russell was like, right, like I want none to do well. No,
it was not even third based. Definitely didn't even have
any acts on that record. I would have just thought
in I mean, in a five hour flight to l
A and you're trying to save someone's life. He was

(01:02:58):
still like, I don't go to Warner Brothers. I'll hook
you up somebody over there. Then it will take your record. Um.
He would have had nothing to benefit from that. Oh
if you heard the rest of that, all the same
Gang albums, did you buy that as well? I did
not buy it. I dodged that bullet. I'll buddy of mine.
It's about Bill. It's about Bill. Bill. Did you purchase

(01:03:21):
We're all on the same Gang album? Just twelve in? Okay?
It was that the albums that bad. It was more songs.
It wasn't. It wasn't not. It was just like solo
tracks from other people that no one knew was not
at all okay, like def Jeff's Weed Rollers or anyway.

(01:03:46):
Um so, Michael. So then the legend is that Donnie
and Tomma Montola had to then call it Dick Clark.
Uh too, Oh because Michael, because actually on insisted on
sitting next to Michael Jackson American Music Awards, and they're like, well,
he's not coming, he's not up for anything, so that's

(01:04:07):
not going to happen. He's like, well, I'm sorry, I
can't help you. Okay, we'll make it happen. And then
they had to beg Dick Clark to give Michael and
a special award. But then once Bob Jones and Michael
Jackson reluctantly agreed to do this, then their stipulation was, well,
someone important has to give it to us. We want

(01:04:28):
Eddie Murphy to give us this award. And Eddie Murphy
is so busy doing no Harlem Knights he couldn't leave
the set. So then they had to call the paramount
like this just oh my god, yea of Domino Fuckory, Yeah,
just for this moment. So was this worth this faith? No? Yeah?

(01:04:57):
For right all this ship over There have Third Base
album jail, even even a side like a filler cut
um so the whole third Base project? Did you sign
third Base? No? But I worked with him. How did
they come into your How did they even come to
the def Jam? The def Jam? As far as I

(01:05:18):
can recall through sam Sever Okay, but was this was
this some Chico bars D'Angelo revenge mission thing like the
BC Boys left us, so now we need a new
white group with credibility to Yeah, that had something to
do with it, and search was really I mean I

(01:05:39):
met him in eighty I want to say, at Union Square. Okay,
when people guess, come on this show. Everyone has a
Latin Quarter story. Were you a Latin Quarter ahead or oh,
how come I'm not meeting anyone that's like, hell, no,
I never went to the Latin Quarter lived in the

(01:06:00):
Latin Quarter when I when I've been that person, Yes,
Dante Dante Ross told you that you wouldn't you wouldn't
have gone there, so you still would go to Latin
Quarter even though there was a risk factor involved, and
it was worth it. It was worth it every time,
except for the night that they shut it down. Where
I was at that night, everybody was there at night.

(01:06:23):
They what happened the night they sat down, as I
remember it, l L was there and somebody snatched his chain,
which happened a lot of the Latin Quarter, you know,
and it's set off the sequence of events with like this.
I don't know people like this mass of people running

(01:06:44):
to get away. I think somebody had a knife for
something and like and then they're already just spilling out
into Times Square afterwards. But I remember there was like
you went upstairs to the you came in, then you
went upstairs that's where the main area was, and there
was like this marble like mirrored thing on the side
of the stairs. It was just covered with blood like

(01:07:06):
all the way down. Yeah, and no bullets, no bullet
like hard work boom, yeah, like hard work and punching. Yeah,
it might be the quartered episode, right as I remember,
that was the last night. It was last night I

(01:07:26):
ever went there last night. Yeah, you only got one time.
And still it wasn't as bad as a rooftop, and
you still went to the rooftop. I stopped going to
the rooftop. It was crazy, but there was a lot
of a lot of ship went down the rooftop. All right,

(01:07:46):
So what's the pros of going to the rooftop in
the Latin corner? What's the pros? The pros especially Latin
Quarter mean p did their first show there. I heard
that and go over to you. Well though I thought
it was great, I didn't it didn't go over great,
it wasn't you know? Okay, so I've been to the
tunnel during the tunnel period tunnel. Yeah, so was was

(01:08:11):
it the equivalent of going to the tunnel? Yes, nightclub
with big speakers that were just just crazy. Can you
imagine they're playing like nobody beats the bibs like loud
loud as ship Like alright was the ship? So there
was worth it? So as a woman, as a white person,
as someone that works at def jam with this jacket, well,

(01:08:35):
even though you were past deaf jam, I'm certain that
you had some sort of swaggish or about you that
let people know that, oh there's faith newman from that
or whatever. Yeah, for sure, like that didn't bother Like,
first of all, how does how does anyone get that
close to l L for him? Do you even get

(01:08:56):
his chain? Like is there not a VP section or
you're not even save him v I P. I don't
think there's observe a v I P section. I don't
remember him being in a special section. Wow, I don't
remember that, So you just why wait, I would figure
that l O was passed. Maybe it's the stuff of
the legend. I don't know. It's like so Yeah, he

(01:09:25):
wouldn't have been pasted eighty seven, sorry eighty seven, he
wouldn't have been passing. Yeah. I don't know. I just
imagine like l O just being too big or too
good for that. Yeah, but do you go there and
you like show up and you're like the fucking man,
I'm still down or yeah, I see. So even with

(01:09:47):
Union Square and any of those Union Square was the
bomb too, but you had you know, you had the
Bronx and queens like separated by levels. Yeah, because that's
what Kidning played rhymed about. That's my experience of the
Union Squirrel. I just know that the fresh princeon Jazzy
jef hyo. But there's something to what you just asked,

(01:10:08):
Faith though, because I'm curious, like how you how you
were back then, because like your ship didn't stink and
you were very young. You were having parties where Graham
Aster Flash with DJ at your house and stuff like that.
So like, how was the the ego and the humbleness
back then because you knew this still know it was different,
Like I knew that I was, but I was humble

(01:10:29):
at the same time, like I think, uh, yeah, I mean,
I you know, I was one of the only you know,
I was the only woman at death Jam at the time.
That was that was something you know, so that's still
held weight and honor. Yes, okay, but you also mentioned

(01:10:49):
people chasing you with their demos, and that's the thing
like when Marley Maul did this episode and I'm like, yo, dude,
you're still living in the projects when all these hits
are out. How these people not talking you to make
some stars because normally the people that will stalk you
that which is weird hearing that the way that you
approached Russell Simmons one, what or who's protecting you from stalkers?

(01:11:17):
Especially with def Jam, the label that everyone dreamed of
being one which I'm certain that you guys got way
more nose than yes. Speaking of which, who did y'all
say no to? That? Is? There is the list of
they're not deaf Jam material, Like I mean, this is

(01:11:37):
gonna sound you know, like a gimme. But Vanilla Ice
was he close to coming to death Jam or was
it like no, it was a demo. It was like
it just you know, a demo like any other time
you would listen to actively listen to demo? How long
did you listen to his not very long, I think, um,

(01:12:00):
I was with UM. This guy Jorge, who came to
me known as Curious, was my intern. Actually at the
time the album was Dope, So I like the conservati
one album. So what did what did you and George
say when he said it was bananas and he threw
it in the trash. One one of the themes that

(01:12:30):
always comes up during quest love Supreme is the idea
of your heart, uh having good taste good or bad,
versus your brain, which is is this effective or non effective? Now?
As an employee, are you not thinking I have to

(01:12:51):
pick some winners for us to sell versus you wanting
just to have this pedigree of great work to be
on this label. So was their pressure to I was
a pedigree person. I couldn't help it. And as and
as the label kind of became you know, distorted, um

(01:13:15):
by the next you know, decade or the next or
that that difficult transition period, you know, UM, it definitely
affected me. I felt like you know that, I felt
that the brand had been really compromised. Yes forever, I

(01:13:36):
mean it came back, but at that time it was
it was the reason I left. Was there a moment
when you're like, oh, this is it. I'm done the
Don in there? Does anyone remember then? Remember the dog?
It was? He had a song called in There? All right?

(01:13:57):
How did the Dome was on with Ted Nugent on
de Cham Well it wasn't def jam, It became R
A L labels? Am I am? I to assume that
the reason for the Don's being was to get some
tone look money or yeah, because there sounded like at

(01:14:20):
least his cousin. Yeah, I saw it a lot of
one like video hot track. Yeah, especially the box Yes,
that's just not like Funky Cold Cisco Na bro So
who signed the Don. Oh my god, totally totally totally

(01:14:43):
forgot to ask you. I forgot Leo worked at Depth
gip know he worked at Rush. Yes, we hadn't gotten
to him yet, right like we're just getting no Ford Rush. Yeah.
And he just didn't have anything to do with the
label side until he did so, until he did what
are your what are your I met olderly or nicer

(01:15:08):
to me lee or I don't have a lee or
imitation to give you lee or we've heard earlier invitation.
Now he was a different person then, so I could
say it wasn't a pleasant experience, correct, And in hindsight,
do you feel as though he was an effective person
to work for, being as though the heights that def

(01:15:31):
Jam he has later going to. Do you think def
Jam would have naturally going to the Heights jay z
DMX without someone know I credit him. I'm just saying
there at the home, there was a period of time
where it just it was really rocky, and I had
been there almost five years at that point, and I

(01:15:52):
was time for me to go. What did you guys,
What did you guys disagree as far because obviously your
exit had to be in a disagreement. It was, it was,
it was. It was one of those things where I
had been I was the liaison between Deaf Jam and Columbia.
So I was always up there anyway, went to their

(01:16:13):
A and R meetings, went to their retreats that they had,
and when those guys didn't feel like so I was,
I was the person. I was a def Jam person
at Columbia kind of like, okay, so you know, like
comedians always joked, Black comedians will joke like have one
white friend on standbya somebody's going to have to talk

(01:16:33):
to the police, right so you were the I guess whisper. Yes,
put a nice face on, all right, So you're the
liaisons there and then where And they always said to me,
Donny would say, if you ever want to make a change,
you know, come work for us, come to death Row. Yeah.

(01:16:58):
And then uh, you with your executives throwing sandwiches, the
tools dancing, come to Columbia. Well, that's exactly what you did.
So there wasn't a stroll that that that broke the kid.
You know what, Leo and I had had an argument

(01:17:20):
about something. Um, he blamed my assistant for losing some
L L cool J Master tapes or something that she
didn't do. It wasn't her fault. He insisted I fire her.
We had it back and forth, and I just said
I'm done with this and I was done. So Sony, yeah,

(01:17:40):
CBS and CBS building. When I first started, they had
just done the deal with Sony. Okay, I keep on
forgetting to call them CBS first. The CBS still a
thing now? Is that just records? Now? They got they
divested of all their okay music. So you took Downy's
advice and went to death roll over, went to the

(01:18:03):
dark side. Did you regret it, No, not at all.
And I thought it was kind of interesting because you know,
I had interned there, you know, years ago, as this
intern trying to come up in the world, and they
were scouraged from coming back, and I was scared from
coming back, and I came back as an executive. You

(01:18:26):
go faith to do it? There, you go. That's that's
that's it's rather trumphant. Did you have the working girl
theme from Carly Simon playing your all looking at this
guyline of New York? Exactly? My coffee mom um. One
of the you you signed a lot of acts, and

(01:18:48):
one of the acts that I was shocked to find
out that you signed, favorite of mine was Jamerica. Uh
what well? First of all, what was the first act
that you did sign to NA even before you Maryland?
It was around kind of around the same time. Actually,

(01:19:08):
NAS was like the first act that I was two
weeks into the job when I signed NAS, and and
that was like in a October, And in December I
signed Jamericai. Wow, it took three years for that too.
Even what was it about jameric Way that made you
fly to London in the week before Christmas? Yeah? Um,

(01:19:33):
it's a demo. Um. You know. They were signed to
Ascid Jazz in the UK and uh Karen Hurley from
Massive Jazz came to see me. He said, I just
want you to listen to this. It was a demo,
you know, cassette demo. One song when You're Gonna learn. Yes,
I thought it was a woman singing. I couldn't you

(01:19:53):
know exactly, you know who is she? She? It's a
heat and he's white and so so that was it.
It was the one song, and I said, I gotta
go and I gotta sign this guy. And that's really
how it happened. And to you, like, did you expect

(01:20:17):
them or have visions of them blowing up in the
States or was it just I think I did. I mean,
I was so into the music. I thought for sure
that it would. It would translate Jesus Christ, not just
not from here he um, it would when we when

(01:20:40):
the roots toward in Europe, in Italy, and I believe
with j America there's a drive for one city in
Italy to the other side of it, which like a
uh four hour trek. Uh Jay actually purchased uh A

(01:21:05):
Ferrari at the one city we were at and drove
behind his tour bus the entire fourteen hour duration. He
made that much off of that the first the album,
that one, first one sand that he was huge overseas. Yeah,
they were huge overseas, so right now that was like

(01:21:26):
urgency Planet Earth was the first one. So he's like
a Craig David in that way, like we might not know,
but he is really killing it. America was late and
they never really got it. Kids were like, Jamerica is
like a one hit wonder in America. Yeah, virtual sanity,
like the guy with the hat the hat. I thought

(01:21:48):
that Space Cowboy was incredible. Absolutely, shout out to bet
for putting on that videos well. Being as though they
blew up in you up like were there was there
a separate uh with Columbia Street like different divisions different.

(01:22:10):
I mean that it was more in the in the
hands of the International Department than I think they knew
after the first album that it was a tough sell
over here, so they didn't have it. They didn't have
a radio record. That's what I kept hearing. There's no
radio record, there's no radio record, there's no radio record. Well,
shout out to my boy of Fred at MTV. Fred
Jordan's um who that was the person that showed us

(01:22:37):
the virtual Insanity video? But like, how did was that
just a stroke of luck of it? Yeah? Well I was.
I was gone from that time, I see. Um so
with Nas, what was it that told you to was
it search or like what was the relationship? Um? Well,

(01:23:01):
I heard him on the main source album like most people,
and uh, and I like lost my mind. I said,
I gotta find this kid. And I was already working.
I was still working at def Jam at the time,
and so I asked PAULI, a large professor, what's up
with this kid nasty Nas? You know, can I meet him?

(01:23:23):
You know? And and he was kind of pushing me
on signing a Canelli and not and not Nas you know.
So um so that was kind of like a tail
end of my time at def Jam. I took a
month off before I started a Columbia and apparently in
that time, from what Nas tells me, he went up

(01:23:45):
to def Jam with large professor to find me specifically,
I was already gone, and so this happened and then I,
you know, I was at Columbia, was two weeks in
and Search came in my office. And because he knew

(01:24:05):
that I was trying to find now that I wanted
this kid, and he said, I have his demo and
played it for me two songs, um and I went
down the hall to the head of the and our
department said, you know, you have to let me sign
this kid. You don't have to let me sign anything
else the entire time I'm here. You have to let

(01:24:27):
me sign this kid. Was it that hard of the
sale though? Yeah, two peeple corporate people at Colombia, I mean,
Columbia didn't really have much of a hip hop department.
That was why they hired me and Music Freedom William Solo. Yeah. Yeah,

(01:24:49):
So you're saying that it was a hard sell to
even get NAS. Yeah, well, but it wasn't. It wasn't
because part of the reason they hired me was they
wanted their own rap division because they had def Jam
rough House, they had So So Deaf, but they didn't
want that. They wanted all they wanted to have their own.

(01:25:11):
They didn't want to they didn't want to share with anybody.
But as as as wait, so is Michael was he
there at that point? Not yet? Okay, I would think
that as a label having uh, the sub labels would
satisfy that itch. So if you're Donny and you're you're

(01:25:35):
you're Tommy h I would just think, like, oh, matter
of fact, wasn't NAS initially on rough House? Or was
that just me? That was me having this moment of oh, no,
nobody's going to know what to do with this record.
Let's just put it out on rough House. At least
we'll get you know, the right marketing people, in the

(01:25:57):
right promotion people, because they wanted me to have this
divis Asian, but I didn't have it. There wasn't really
anybody right, no staff, no right. So I said, let's
put it out through rough House. What did you imagine
or or hope for with this record? Because yeah, I
think the idea of Illmatic and even the process of

(01:26:17):
it became bigger than yeah, the more than as time
went on. It's like it, you know, it came just
like these mythic proportions. Well what what I didn't know?
The thing that makes Illmatic so special, or at least
what made it such a game changer that people rarely
discuss is the fact that this will mark the first

(01:26:39):
time that multiple producers uh will handle a hip hop album,
whereas Uh, the status quo was like one producer sees
the whole project through Um. Did this idea seem as
radical to you at the time, to not let one

(01:27:01):
person produce the entire record? No, it felt really natural, actually,
but it's never happened before. It just because all of
these people wanted to work with him, So it only
made sense that everybody who wanted to work with him,
all these great producers got an opportunity to be a
part of the project. Who who was lining up? Because

(01:27:24):
first of all, it's it's ten songs on the record,
really nine, but it was supposed to be twelve. I
was gonna say, like who who got rejected? It's not
a question of rejected, it's um. Um. The album was
so heavily bootlegged and so ubiquitous everywhere, I mean overseas.

(01:27:44):
I mean everybody had to copy of that album that
we had to rush it out before it was ready,
And that's why there's only nine songs. Really, so you
just see, Yeah, I've read you said they were cutting
more records as the joint came out. I'm working on
most stuff. Yeah, it just wasn't enough time. There would
have been another premier cut, for sure, so in the

(01:28:08):
perfect world, you would have made it a traditional hip
hop record of the time, which in ninety four, I
mean hip hop records were still like sixteen to eighteen songs,
getting with skits and all that. Ship. Well, yeah, who
who's the first We'll say public intomy was Nation. I
think Nation of Millions was the first single record that

(01:28:31):
had like double album status. Well definitely one of the
first album with interludes on it, so yeah, with sixteen
songs on it. So that's the thing that struck me
about this record that it was that made it different
to me because like most classic records in the mind

(01:28:52):
of the music consumer, like Stevie Wonders and Divisions or
Thriller or whatever, like all those albums clock in at
third two thirty three minutes and then you're out. So
you know you were fine with that? Just yeah, was
he fine with that? I think he wanted it done
and out too, okay, So I mean was it smooth?

(01:29:16):
Like why did it take two years to make? And
m hmm, he just, um, well he had his friend.
Was it easy? No, it was a difficult record to make,
so well he had his friend passed away, so that
you know, Um, that was tough, and then he just wasn't.

(01:29:40):
Sometimes he showed up to the studio, and sometimes you
didn't show up to the studio. You kind of never
knew what you were going to get. Sometimes he was
feeling it and he'd right, and sometimes he wasn't feeling
it and he'd go home or wherever. It's just it
was just a long, long, long process. Who who was

(01:30:00):
the person that had the chokehold of I mean, I know,
like with having worked with mcs, like, you can't if
you force them and you'll traumatize them into permanent writer's block.
So this could have easily been a J Electronica situation
where it could have been easily So how are you like,

(01:30:23):
who's the designated person that was there too? Kind of
take him out of that? Um, you know, I don't know.
I think we kind of eat with search and me
and you know, obviously the people at the label who
didn't know what was going on until they told me
to drop him, which happened twice. Yeah. Yeah, I was

(01:30:47):
wondering how she could hold on. It was what one
was because of a gun thing? Did they know that
that was just going to be you know, inventor is
a rappers and Gunda at the time, it wasn't so
standard and they wanted me to do. They wanted to

(01:31:08):
drop him, and I had to make the case fight
for him and Donny wanted to drop Yeah, yikes, because
him and Jungle are so obviously too. I always wondered, like,
was he always on the edge of situation because of
his brother? Jungle was the one with the guns. So
there you go. Which is a funny story actually, because um,

(01:31:32):
they had a show, his first show in New York
was at a club called Muse, and we sent a
car service to pick them up in Queensbridge. Bring them.
It doesn't end well, um, and Jungle had a gun
on him. You know. This is after the thing with
with Will had happened, and you know, and uh, I

(01:31:56):
always thought up until Rock the Bells three years ago,
that the gun fell out of his pocket, But Jungle
told me what had happened was he asked the driver
to hold it for him while they were in the club.
Sh okay, So the driver took it to the police.
Oh man, yeah, snitch and ass drop. I just want

(01:32:24):
you to hold this cocaine while I did my sick
That's all I need A minute so when the show
is over, So the show's over, no car, no gun,
Jungle starts calling the car company and threatening their lives
and oh Jungle, o Jabari. Oh Man, did you as

(01:32:58):
as someone from North Carolina or you Bill or someone
from Indiana? Did you have naas expectations? None? Because I'll
be honest with you, NAS, Yes, I remember it. I
went to help for at the age of two. I
went to health Us, not from Jesus. I remember the line,
but I never had a yo. I cannot wait for

(01:33:20):
that moon. Like even after halftime came halftime, I never
liked that. I didn't like halftime. I worked at rough House. Okay,
I worked at rough House, and I was just like,
it's cool. Yeah. I didn't really get NAS until it
ain't hard to tell when when I heard that, I
was like, Okay, this is dope. But then I was like, Okay,

(01:33:43):
this is clever. But then when I saw that when
I saw that Gang Star issue of the Source and
saw that it got five mics, then I was like
holy sh it, and like We're in the middle of
making do you want more? And I'm reading this five
mic review man, and I'm just like, oh God, like

(01:34:04):
there's I don't know. I just I read the review first,
even before I heard the record, and by that point
anything that the source could have told me be incredible
or not that you held it as in, you know,
And I just felt like the way they reward it
was like this is the new standard, of the gold

(01:34:25):
standard or whatever, and I just felt like, yo, I
got to the train platform too late, and this is now,
this is the new standard whatever this album is. And
so I think Tark was like, yeah, you know, I
got to copy that tape and then he went in
his bag and had like and and played it and

(01:34:48):
I was just confused, Like I was told Illmatic is classic.
You never got to make it a classic on your own,
like it never you never got to do it on
your on your own merits. It was just told to you.
Like the Chronic again, I was told it was classic.
I see the Chronic was different from me. That he

(01:35:11):
was different because I got in on the Chronic early,
Like I saw the g Thing video and was just like, whatever,
that's cool. But then I saw the covers like Doctor
Dre the Chronic, I was like, drake out the album
I buy and the Chronic was a slow burn like
it was. I hated it when I bought it, and
I literally listened to it and I was like, all right,
this is cool. And then I remember a couple of
months later that ship was sucking everywhere ready to die.

(01:35:34):
Was like that for me too. I was like, all right,
this is dope. And then it wasn't ntil the next
and then they were told you were told it was classic, right,
but it became. But I got a chance to view
it for myself, I think, but it was mattic. I
didn't really because like you like, I remember when the
review came out, and like I said, I wasn't big
gonna half time. It ain't hard to tell, I like.

(01:35:56):
And then I saw the review and I was like, damn,
like he got Mike like that was and the source
and that sound like that was Bob and I didn't
even think like, oh, that's political or so then the
record came out and I remember getting it and one
of the things that really struck me about it was,

(01:36:16):
you know, and maybe it was just you know, chance
or divine to mention whatever, it was only ten songs,
which was un heard of for a hip hop record,
and so for me, I went to the mindset. I'm like, Yo,
if this motherfucker got balls enough to just do ten
songs like, to me, that in itself was a statement,
like for you to just say, funk all these skits
and shout out to this dude that ten songs. Fun it.

(01:36:38):
This is what it is like. That to me was like, Okay,
he got some ship. And so then I listened to
it and yeah, I was like, yeah, I've never don't
want to go on the record. I never like disputed
if it was a classic or not. But it's just
the way that it was. I wasn't expecting it that
and that was my whole point, Like I didn't have

(01:37:01):
absolutely right. I just woke up one day saw the
Gangstar issue and thought, okay, let me see what they
reviewed and did the Colombia people did they know the
like the gravity of what five mites minute the time?
Did they get that? Yeah? They got that. Wow, Okay,
did that change anything in terms of how he was
treated at the label or like more marketing dollars to him?

(01:37:22):
And yeah, it did, it did. It's still only you
know we the album was so bootlegged. We came out
sold what first week back then? That's no, yeah, first
week something. I mean, we didn't sell ship and we
did like we we said, you had already had the

(01:37:44):
bootleg copy of the NAS record and that was probably
half the problem everybody had. But wearted again. I mean, okay,
you done from from but not a lot of people,
Like I got about full of tapes that I dubbed
off of people that I still haven't bought. But I

(01:38:04):
feel like eighty thousand in the first week is like
two thousand, sixteen numbers. You gotta NAS did eighty thousand
his first week, he would instantly got dropped from Colombia.
I felt like you at least had to do a
hundred thousand something. You're saying, wow, what was it? Oh,

(01:38:27):
it matter? At least Apri nineteen nine four has seen
in eight hundred and forty four increasing sales. In nineteen
the album sold fourteen thousand seven copies during this first week.
I'm alright. As of today, Omatic has sold one point
six million, fourteen thousand. Thank you Jesus Christ. Well that

(01:38:51):
I thought it was more than that. That was under
your projections, That was that was my That's me right there. Okay,
So first week, do you saying, let's put it in
the ninety four context, at least to my knowledge, and
correct me if I'm wrong in this face first week numbers?
Was that really a thing? Like it was like it
became later on, like it wasn't just like your first week, No,

(01:39:12):
it was the thing. It was the days when you know,
like Garth Brooks or whoever was doing like a million
first week, got you? Got you? Yeah, post sound scan, Yeah,
after after week you read that fourteen thousand, that's what
it says. Four A. It must be true. I remember.

(01:39:34):
That's not what I remember, but that's from the store. Yeah,
I mean, I mean it could be wrong. I mean
it's the great Winston Churchill said, never believe everything you
read on the internet. Here. So were you at hip
Hop's funeral? Uh? June, Yes, I was there. What section

(01:40:00):
were you sitting in? Were you on the middle? Oh,
you're in the middle on the west coast side. The
middle row was all west coasting down south. I was.
If you're facing the stage, the far left facing the stage,
then I'm on the left alright. So the the the

(01:40:21):
the Haves, the winning New York side. Nas is sitting
three rows ahead of me on the far right side.
And I watched his whole body language. That his whole
body language, the transition from nasty Nas to dog. I

(01:40:45):
watched he came in. And it's weird because only maybe
two years ago, either him or Stout told of the
story of that Tommy Hill figure shirt that Nas had on.
That was the first oddest thing. First of all, it
was like, well, therese like the fashionista of the roots.
So he knew that was the out of season Hill

(01:41:07):
figure shirt for some reason, like not like he said
like oh that that's uh, not off the wreck, but
when you go to outlet store like outlet last season.
But the shirt was way too big for Nas. It
was like he's wearing a imagine like your son wearing
wearing one of my right. It was just a very

(01:41:28):
unusual look in Tommy Hill figure shirt. And uh, he
came in kind of really you know, proud. Everything was
the top of the show, and you know, all the
drawing and the heat was on. Did he with which
took night and the whole you know, come to death
row and all in the video all that stuff, and
you know, bit by bit, Big kept winning all of

(01:41:53):
the awards and like by the time the third by
the time the third nomination was which I guess was
like lyricist of the Year or whatever. Um, you know
his body language just like he curled up in the
most depressed sitting light balls be right now. Yeah, it

(01:42:16):
was on purpose. It was a slouch. I'll never forget watching.
And I looked and me and Red looked at each
other like, yo, he's never going to be the same again, Like,
and he wasn't. And he admitted that that night affected him.
Like did that affect you or did at that time?
Did you just think whatever, it's the source? No? I

(01:42:39):
thought everything changed for hip hop that night. Everything scared
the ship out of me. Yeah, I like it, felt
it got it took a turn like towards east, looked
towards the dark, Yeah, the dark side, and and you
just knew it was going to end badly for a
lot of people. I felt that very much. So were

(01:43:02):
you around for it was written or did you leave?
I left Um for Jive Um. I had disagreements with
Nas and with Stout over the direction of the album.
So were you there at least for the beginning of
it was written? So in your mind it was like,
let's keep our eyes on the fries. And I told

(01:43:22):
Nas I remember saying this to him. You know, if
you keep doing exactly what you're doing ten years, you're
going to be you know, legendary ten years feeling like
a lot of time back then, and you know, just
be true to yourself. Just be true to yourself. And
but he was, He's like I wanted now he's what
was your conversation with him after the source of wards? Um?

(01:43:46):
That conversation? So what was he feeling? That he had
been cheated somehow, that he had been overlooked? Um, that
he made this incredible piece of art, and people are
giving him the credit that he deserved. Meanwhile, Biggie is biggie.

(01:44:07):
He mentioned Biggie, Biggie biggie. Yeah, so it was right.
So how how early into the first or second quarter
did you leave? It was written very early. So I
left Colombia in say October. Okay, what wait a minute,

(01:44:39):
but it was out by then. I had removed myself
from the process. I was label it hurts my soul. Yeah,
so okay again, but here's another here's another idy love situation. Now,
whatever your feelings a about if I ruled the world,

(01:45:03):
I wrote the chorus for for Fucking Lauren Hill by
the way, or rather I told her what to say.
You approved of that? At least I was up to
that point, yes, And then it became again an untenable
situation because of Stout and myself. So, m okay, I couldn't,

(01:45:25):
you know, do what Stout did for NAS. That just
wasn't you know, it's not what I do. He Stout
was trying to argue me. Stout came to like a
voodoo session once we were thinking of getting NAS on. No, no,

(01:45:45):
what were we calling it on in my mind? In
my mind, yo, son, I will yeah, yeah, that makes
no sense. No, I wasn't ghetto children. It was wait,

(01:46:14):
stop naming songs. I can figure out the name, all right.
So we did a drawin based on uh lots of
loving the Ohio players Westbound, Yeah, like it was something
based off of that, and Stout came by and we
happened to be talking about it was written, and I
guess he just automatically assumed that we were all aboard

(01:46:36):
for it because it was winning and it was doing
exactly what Naas hoped it would do as far as
cells and winning, and m me and D were kind
of lukewarm to it, and Stout had mentioned that. Yeah. Man,
remember we was trying to get you for a Little
Black Girl Lost and uh and I mean the mistake

(01:47:00):
of I said, really like, it's kind of like, oh,
you dissed a bullet on that one. Really not knowing
who or what Steve Stout representing, I just thought he
was just a guy that was opinionated about hip hop
and was just hanging around the studio. I didn't know
that was like NAS this guy. And I was like, oh,
that's a little Black Girl loss on that one. You

(01:47:22):
said what you don't like that? I was like, oh god, no,
Like I hate it, a little Black Girl loss. The
narrative was cool, but again it was just like it
was an old Yeah, the Stephanie Mills loop was. It
was the track masterest formula that I didn't like at
the time. And just for me with the NAS stuff,

(01:47:43):
particularly with that album too, it was with and dropping
on the same day as Steaks as High. It's just like, man,
come like that was that was the first time you
could really see like in A and B kind of choice,
you know what I mean, boss, it's just pitting day
Line nine versus NAS in nineties six. Well, I wasn't

(01:48:07):
pitting them against each other. I was just saying like
at that point, that was when there became a clear
like a path in terms of sounds. So it's like
if you got into if you were it was written fan,
then that was when you went more to like you know,
track Masters and Biggie and the bad boy stuff. It
was it was straight up apart. If you went into

(01:48:29):
stakes It's high. That was how you got into Diller,
and that was how you got into like all the
kind of left field, underground kind of ship. You know
what I'm saying. You the hip hop site of music,
you know what I mean? Sand Box Automatic ye oh
my god, I don't know. I don't know. I don't.

(01:48:49):
I hate to say this, but I wouldn't wish Allmatic
or Nas again if he were able to do a redo.
Does that sound crazy to you know? I just feel like, like,
do you know if it's a burden on him? It
is I think it is. Does he realize the pressure? Like, well,

(01:49:14):
I wouldn't wish that one him because it's I don't know,
it's not it was like I mean to me, Illmatic
as great as it was like it was, it is,
by the way, Oh, it's smart enough is still a
thing to me. Always looked at it as like like
NAS was like the m Night Shamalana philp Hop. I mean, listen,

(01:49:35):
it's like no, seriously, I mean like, and I'm a
NAS fan, like not, dude, Nas is God literally, but
it was like ill Matic was the sixth sense. It
was written, was unbreakable. Everything else was everything else? When
are you sick of hearing people debate about Illmatic? Like
you created this monster that I would never personally, I

(01:49:57):
wouldn't be I'm not. I mean, it's it's still relevant.
That's the thing. It's you know here it is twenty
two years later and we're still talking about it. I
just think the idea of Illmatic is our idea. And
are I think we're just crying for a period in
hip hop that it's just it's gone. It's gone. Man.

(01:50:19):
It's you're basically like I am with the child Childish
Gambino record. Now you basically say, I'm I'm pining for
something that doesn't exist anymore. And that's why I don't
like it. I never heard anything. If you're just tuning in.
Our guest is Faith Newman. She famously worked as an
a and r rep at Columbia and def Jam back

(01:50:39):
in the early days of hip hop and now works
at Reservoir Faith. Where does your hip hop tastes land
these days? Well? You signed a Joey very bad Joey
badass and yeah, like yeah, so don't you still try
to So when you went to jive? What what period

(01:51:03):
was this? Oh? This was the Blingy era. This was
um seven to two thousand. You g K stories, you
g K stories that got him man wasting. Yeah, we're listening. Okay,
Well they couldn't get them to turn into the album.
So Barry Wise says, you need to go to Houston

(01:51:26):
and come back with the album. You have one mission
and that is to go to Houston, get the album
and come back. And what album was this? Was this seven?
That was It wasn't Ryan Dirty, it was no, it
was um um god? What was their third album? Well,
I mean I didn't come back with the ps is
that I didn't come back with the album, So that
w e the important part of the story. Yeah, and

(01:51:50):
I'm I'm shocked that Weiss would even care, not care,
But I mean they were signing his label, weren't they right?
And then and the other reason he cared was that
j Prince was trying to steal them away from JIVEH
to a lot. Yeah, to wrap a lot, And in fact,

(01:52:12):
I was the hotel that I was staying at. He
sent somebody to sit in the parking lot of the
hotel the entire time I was there. Prince did yeah, yeah,
some intimidation thing, I don't know, just to let me
know that they know that I'm there. So Chad Pimsey says,

(01:52:35):
it has to take me to dinner with his mom, Mama.
Wes you know she recently died, did she? Yeah? Yeah,
to a very nice place, which was this kind of
you know, basic steakhouse or whatever, and that was fun.
And then they had a show to do that night. Um,
I don't know if it was in the Fifth Ward,
but it was somewhere not not good. So so he's

(01:53:01):
driving to the show and I'm in the car with
him and he's he's smoking the entire time that he's driving,
and I got this crazy contact high and he says,
hold on, I got to pull over to this place.
And we pull over and it's like one of those
adult emporiums. I'm listening. I still to this day, I

(01:53:21):
have no idea what he went in there for. It
just kind of went in and yeah, I got to
make a stat and then uh, and then we went
to the show and I got my own bodyguard with
a rifle and um and j Prince was in the
audience surrounded by all these like his whole crew. That's

(01:53:46):
just a little little little story. But it didn't shake you. No, no,
nothing really ever shook me. So you thought you were
going there to our beats rhymes in life and right, yeah,
you GK what was the what was the two short
like we had to build to shut out? It was
just a weed thing. He was stopped in time to

(01:54:07):
square smoking weed in the truck? Who hadn't been What
was your tenure? What what period were you there at
two thousand? You were there for love moments? Something real curious?

(01:54:31):
I think, um the I think Bumby told a story
about Pimpsy's reluctant to jay Z Big Do Bige, and
I just remember not liking the story because I felt

(01:54:53):
like just the bottom line was clearly Pimpsy was struggling
or having conflict of success, which most people have conflict
of success because it's it's easy to obtain success it's
harder to keep keep it going consistently. Um And it's

(01:55:18):
like clearly of the narrative of of Bumby, like Pimpsy
was absolutely trying his hardest to sabotage this big Pimp
and camp cameo. He's like, well, I'm only gonna do
eight bars and he didn't show up this time, and
then show him and he's not in the video and

(01:55:39):
they had to. They had the flat crew down to
shoot him in Houston. That was the only way he
would do it. And it's just like why now, I
know he was like, you know, hanging onto the credibility
and all that stuff. But it's like, like words, I mean,
could could you t ks appeal? How I've really gone

(01:56:01):
to a national level without the aid of jay Z
and Outcast had I mean, I know, in hindsight it's like, okay, well,
of course that they put the work in and you know,
apply that you need that thing, I think, But did
you feel but did you feel as though even before

(01:56:21):
Big pimpin before Outcast comes aboard like that, they could
have been bigger? And you know, a household name, a
household name. I don't think so really, really, I can't
see pimp seed in a household name when that just came,
you know, like I think they might have found some
level of success after the success of like No Limit

(01:56:45):
in cash money making Southern hip hop, you know, more
of a less of a regional thing. I think it
would eventually got into U g K like it eventually did.
Had they hung on and just I don't know if
it would have gotten to the level that it got to.
But now they needed I think they needed like definitely
Big Pimp and that. I mean that open, No, they
needed it, but they would have had to have a

(01:57:05):
couple more of those, I think. But I mean it
could have at least with the momentum that Big Pimp
and brought them, like could they have you know, it
was very at least feeling like, Okay, we're on a
role here. We can now cash in and if they

(01:57:26):
could get them to turn in the record, I mean
that was what else did you work on? A Jeff Um?
I worked on the Tupac album Are You Still Down?
Still Down? Like a hundred songs on there when I

(01:57:46):
Get Free? How did you? How did you guys get
access to those songs? It was a it was a return,
It was a return favor for something that Interscope did
with um and of Scope put out a jive release
or a jive artist that I for whatever reason I
cannot remember right now. So in return, we were we'll

(01:58:10):
give you two, will give you one album of Tupac music.
It's like sports straight Trading Man. That wasn't a bad album, though,
I remember, I mean because a lot of the cameo joined. Um,
if it was all so shocking Carlin so shock and calling,

(01:58:30):
I wouldn't mad at that. Really, that was so sho
call it, didn't I do? Tracy Spencer? Tracy Spencer? Where
the hell is Tracy Spencer? Didn't she marry one of them?
She's a doctor or something? I thought, Tracy Spencer, right,
if someone can, I'm just did you not get paid
for the remix bad or something? Yeah? I got paid
for it, But I never met Tracy Spencer. She was

(01:58:51):
my idol when I was a little girl. Hide and
Seek A mad to John Lennon, I'm sorry she did
imagine she liked we agree with you? Oh good, okay,
So Faith, I have a question that actually should have
asked way, way, way a long time ago. UM, what
exactly doesn't A and our person do. Oh well, um,

(01:59:13):
there's different things. I mean the first thing they and
our person does is bringing the talent is scout the
talent and bring it into the label and then shepherd
it through the recording process. Um. And it doesn't really
end there, you know. You don't just kind of finish
a record with somebody and you hand it over to
marketing or you hand it over to promotion. You kind

(01:59:34):
of you see it through the whole way because you
know the vision and you know the sound and you know,
you know, um where it should be going. So that
used to be what and our people did. Yeah, I
was I was going to ask you how has it
changed in the from when you started doing it to now? Well, yeah,
you know, I don't know what it's like because I've
been in publishing for seven years now, um doing A

(02:00:00):
and R, which is kind of like the old school
way of doing it, which is cool, you know, Um,
I don't know how it goes on, what goes on
with the labels right now. It doesn't seem like do
you have that much autonomy or you know, I mean
things are signed based on logistics and not so much

(02:00:21):
you know, just pure raw talent. Yeah. Well which ones
have gotten away from me? I mean if you're talking
in terms of like just over the course of my career, man,
what you were trying to get them? Where at Columbia

(02:00:43):
man as a unit, Donnie Eroner said, and I quote
their ship. Wow, what yes, yes, have you had like
revenge talks like if you call them like yeah, now
what do you think? Right? We could have had that,
trust me, I felt like a bunch of times. Wow,

(02:01:05):
the entire unit, the entire unit at least had a
conversation with Risen considered it had a conversation the whole thing.
Did he ever come with you with with any of
the solo or the solo projects when Colombia was the
only label then didn't have Yeah, well you know, not

(02:01:28):
even Cappa Donna or Army was Killer Army. They were
on they were like they were indie like what not
indie but the priority and something like that. So during
that whole period of ninety ninety, like when they were
red hot, he just said no, nothing, He just said nothing.

(02:01:49):
This was you know, protect your next days. This was ironic,
being as though one of Maria's biggest singles was right,
were you a part of that brain child? That brought
the Fantasy remix with o dB at Columbia. Then oh
well faith in hindsight, like where are you with music today?

(02:02:13):
Like does I mean are you are you searching for
blood in the stone right now? Or is it you know?
Do you still get this you fork? I do? There's
some there's some artists that two artists I'm looking at
right now that that moved me. This is including who
you spoke of the singing include what well one of

(02:02:35):
the artists you raved about the singer from down South.
I don't know the name of the person, but the
singer from downs House. Yeah, someone there's an act you
told me about of oh Ship uh not Sam Cook
voice or whatever, but they were part of a group

(02:03:00):
Oh watch the Duck. Yes, yes, okay, Jesse right closer
to doing stuff? Yes okay? Are you still involved in
the project? But they want one of the two you
were speaking of when you said, no, there's new ones
that I'm looking at you guys, how are you just

(02:03:23):
on YouTube now looking for acts or is it? No?
It comes through different places. I mean I may find
some something on SoundCloud, you know, occasionally, um, but mostly
it comes from just people I know, managers, you know,
mostly managers. And when you say you're looking at the
are you looking at them in terms of signing them,

(02:03:43):
like publishing deals, Yeah, publishing deals. Yeah. There's this kid
named Joiner Lucas. You heard of him. He's dope. He's
on some like vivid eminem type storytelling clever you know,
wordplay kind of thing. He's dope. But for you, you

(02:04:03):
never want to enter into the sphere of traditional record
label No, I don't want to go back to that.
So I don't think. I don't think if if you
lived through it in the nineties, like I did, you
you you you can't. I couldn't. I couldn't do it
right now because I don't know. I don't know how

(02:04:26):
they do what they do with the resources that they have.
Small budgets, yeah, the tiny budgets. And so what would
satisfy you? Like, what gives you? You know what what
the pattern on the back that you on the back
would be, you know, aside from the artists. Think, a
lot of what I do is catalog deals. And that's

(02:04:50):
the thing, the old school stuff. It's like everything for
me is come full circle. You know what I'm knowing
who you are and you know what I wish you'd do.
Go to men Anapolis. I wish I could too. I
think you should about that. You know, I think they're
looking for an archivra. There's somebody to go through like

(02:05:12):
m M. Yeah. I love doing stuff like that. Make
it happen, you know, I just want to get a
new job. I'm gonna put it out there, put it
out in the universe. I am, I'm putting it. No.
I think you'd be perfect. I mean you, I know
that your majestic passion for purple is runs deep, and

(02:05:34):
you have enough experience in the business too, know how
to minister and and organize these things. And I happen
to know they need a lot of help. I'm just
saying that. Oh wait, I'm supposed to make Yeah, you
brought it. It is your suggestions. You know. Faith is
magic too. She is but a little extra magic. One

(02:05:58):
of my favorite country singers. She was your favorite R
and B singer. Faith. Yeah, um, thank you, thank you,
thank you for not selling out. That's what you didn't do.
You never cash didn't you never sold out? Of course.

(02:06:20):
Love Supreme is a production of My Heart Radio. This
classic episode was produced by the team at Mandora For
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