QLS Classic: Greg Phillinganes Part 1

In part 1 of 2, prolific music director, singer-songwriter & session musician talks about collaborating with Michael Jackson, his extracurricular activities on the BAD tour and being Stevie Wonder's wingman on keys.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of Course, Love Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio.
This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora
Ladies and Gentlemen. This q l S classic we're about
to present is one of my personal favorites. That's writing
my personal favors. You know. I always say, if you
want to know about your favorite artists, you kind of
gotta get it with their circle. While this Great Filming

(00:22):
Games episode is an amazing example his Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson,
and Quincy Jones stories are gold, solid gold. This is
one of my top ten of all time QULS episodes.
It's funny, informative, dramatic and amazing. Here it is the
Great Filling Games QULS Classic Part one. All right, here

(00:44):
we go hit it one two three, Surema roll call, sudrema, sufrema,
row call s a month so sub frema, roll call,
sub prema, sub prima role games is the man. Yeah,

(01:08):
HiT's on the shelf, Yeah, but on Michael's don't stop
to getting up that bridges right itself. Roll call, sub frema,
subprema roll call. My name is Fante, Yeah and I'm
a winner. Yeah with filling games. Yeah. Now let it

(01:29):
s sub Prima roll call, Subrema subprima rode call. My
name is Sugar. Yeah, I got the sugars. Yeah, I'm
having significant pains. Yeah, but I'm making significant gains. Subprima

(01:50):
Road called Subprema sub Frema roll call Sunshine Yeah, Moon
like yeah good, Yeah, blame it on the book ahead
supremam su Prima road call. It's like, yeah, I can't

(02:13):
help it. Yeah, Greg Villa games. Yeah, the reason you
felt it came roll call Suma, Why are you around? Call?
My name is Greg. Yeah, I'm with a mirror. Yeah,
but I can't believe that he's right here. Prima road

(02:38):
Calm Subma Prima road call, Prima Prima road called sub
Prima Frema roll call. Yes, why, Yes, I am right here. Wow,
what's up? Y'all? Welcome to another episode of Quest Loves

(02:59):
to Mean. We are live at United Recording Studios, the
legendary United Recording Studios. I believe that this is where
Frank Sinatra and many a Man's World recorded. Here too,
the other room in here here. Yes, yes, we're in
the legendary, legendary United Recording stage. Let just let the

(03:21):
LS listeners know that our guest today always, always, accuses
me of putting my nerd um for useless music trivia
information ahead of our friendship. So I will start off
before I even start the the the introductions, I will
just start with great filling games. How are you did that?

(03:44):
I mean, I'm just fine. And it's so good to
see you at the beginning of eighteen. Yes, it's great
to see all right. So, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to
the US. Our guest today is one of the heaviest
heavy weights of musicians and producers and arrangers. This is
the man that you call when you want the special sauce,

(04:09):
or as Marlon Jackson said, now it's soup. I've never
heard that term of my life. But he said, we
got we got filling games involved. Yeah, now it's soup.
He said that. Yes, he said that. He says a
lot of wacky things. Well, I kind of understooder. He meant,
and you know your your your presence on you know,

(04:30):
when you read some of our our favorite records and
and and and productions of of the last forty years,
your name is always involved on some of the most
life changing albums that we've experienced. And we want to
welcome Greg Filling games to of course, you know why

(04:52):
I love you. I'm here because you're you're such an
intense nerd about this curator of this, but you're you're
keeping the history alive. But you're doing it um the
way possible. No no, no, no, no, no no no. Seriously,
all jokes aside, you're doing it in in the the

(05:12):
absolute best way possible. You're you're making it fun. You're
using your platform from your celebrity to do this. And I,
for one, really appreciate because i don't get out very
often these days because I'm older now and I have
twin boys who are almost three three and that's that's

(05:34):
a whole and my twelve year old daughter. But but
you know, I'm I'm older now, and you know, it's
it's a new day and it's a new world out there,
and you know, I'm just trying to stay with it.
So I appreciate what the thing is is that you've
you've made some of the best graffiti that will never
ever be replaced, no matter what. And even and even

(05:56):
if people don't know like it's it's they're like, it's
no racing the history. Well it's I've been very very
blessed in that way. And it's true. I've always said,
you know, my whole career, those that no no, and
those that don't don't, and it's fine with me. Um.
And actually I kind of I prefer that way because
I love. This happens to me all the time. You know,

(06:18):
I'll be talking to someone who has no clue of
who I am, right, and they go, so you play
you play your you're a musician. I go, yeah, what
do you play keyboards? Oh? Um, you're in the band.
I was like, well, I've been in a couple of bands,
but you know, and I mean, I just I loved it,
and I have this I have this thing playing in
my head. Um. Like I was at this incredible museum

(06:40):
the other day called another cut museum. It's over in Silmar,
and the curator of of all these incredible musical instruments
actually mirror. You should see it because it's unbelievable. And
and he one of the things on display wasn't was
an actual grammophone. And I mentioned to the guy, said, well,
you know, you can explain to the to the to

(07:01):
the tourists there that grammophone is. You know where where
the term grammy came from? You know the Grammy Awards.
You know, it's yeah, you're absolutely right, he says, have
you ever been in the Grammys? And so I have
this thing when I get asked a question like that,
this this this vision runs through my mind of like,
you know, different times that I've mded the Grammys, like

(07:22):
you know, like for the Lion, and so these things
go through my head before I answered the question, going yes,
I've been there a few times, but I never explained that,
but I just go, yeah, I've been a few times.
And it's hysterically you acknowledge it because I just trying
to throw off the sit like hear that a lot.
But now you know, well sometimes I do that too,

(07:43):
you know. But it's it's always fun um engaging in
those conversations and still leaving the people not having a
clue be who I am. I love that. No, but
you never worth been like, yo, you're the intro we
are the world? Yeah no, no, no, no, no, no,
somethings are better left. Actually you're You're my favorite type

(08:03):
of person to interview because often the other night. But
I'm gonna say what's weird is that often when people
are in the the eye the storm or inside the tornado.
They really can't give you a good perspective. And I'm
saying that he has great stories, but for me and

(08:26):
talking to engineers is way better than talking to like
the guy. Like I'd rather talk to Susan Rodgers about
Prince's work habits than Prince himself, you know what I mean?
That's okay that, Yeah, you'll get a different time, rightly.
And I feel as though you're probably the best eyewitness

(08:47):
to some crazy historic ship. I mean just between songs
in the Key of Life and Thriller, and I mean
the list of stop right there, like the average person's
whole like that. Yeah, I'll give you that. So were
you originally from Detroit? You're from the D. I'm from

(09:08):
the d east side or west side? Um well, it
started in Highland, like you know, listen, some of you
know some of my my key records were created in
Detroit as well. I'm a lover of Detroit. Okay, Well,
but I know that people from the west side sometimes
front and tell me east Side for some credibility, right,

(09:32):
So I wanted to know where you east side and
west But first of all, I don't need credit already
your west side because you didn't even say what up? Though?
To know? No, Actually I started in Highland Park, if
you know that, which virtually doesn't exist anymore. And then
I moved to the northwest side by eight mile. Okay,

(09:56):
all right, I see. So you're you're, you're yours still there,
you're you're in there outside. Note when you read the
Purple Rain, uh liner notes, Prince actually gives a what up? Though,
Oh yeah, yeah, he gives up to uh Billy Sparks

(10:17):
from Detroit. From Detroit, So, um, are you as far
as your your error or your your period of growing up?
We've also interviewed Ray Parker Jr. On the show. So
o lord, how did how did that go? It was amazing?
It was amazing the best. How did you manage to leave?

(10:37):
Because we didn't want to? No one loves talking about
themselves more than I love right, But he knows, he knows.
It's like, you know, you sit him down and you
want to hear more about me? Great thinking that same
week you want to hear more. He makes it entertaining,
but he basically said that for from Stevie's uh Music

(11:02):
of my Mind period up until fulfilling this first finale,
he basically wanted, you know, all Detroit cats in his
crew as his band. And I didn't know if that
was just the preference of the something water in Detroit
or he just wanted to make sure that all the
homeboys on the block got gigs or that sort of thing.

(11:23):
But you're in significantly younger, though, So how you come
to his attention? I don't know. Oh really, you don't
know the story? Oh okay, well settle back and I'll
tell you the whole thing. Yes, that's what uncle, uncle Greg. Yeah, Well, hello, kids, Like,

(11:45):
so this is what happened. It's uh a year after
I graduated. I'm in Detroit. I graduated high school, which
was cast Tech in nineteen and seventy four, and I
was very excited and very much looking forward to going
to college because you know, that's just what you did.

(12:07):
And I, you know, it was like straight out of
the Charlie Brown comics that I got my little Joe
cool briefcase and I was like, I'm going to college.
And I went to Wayne State and I gradually just
started sucking at everything, even the even the subjects I liked,

(12:27):
like I really liked, uh psychology sucking. Wait, you were
there for music. It was a Liberal arts. I took
a Liberal Arts because I was lazy and I didn't
want to, you know anything. So I took a liberal
arts course and one of the courses was psychology. And
I was really into it. But I sucked. I just
could not get it together, you know. And so I
remember telling my mom that, you know, college just wasn't

(12:50):
working out. And she said, well, you know, just give
it another chance and and and see what happens. And
I was gaining a lot of notoriety in Detroit, uh,
from playing in a couple of different bands fairly regularly
and playing around town. Um. And I absolutely idolized Steve

(13:12):
M Steve, you know the whole I had posters of
him in my bedroom hall and I really internalized, I
really absorbed his music. I was to his music what
you are at music in general. I mean I just
nerd it out, but but not in a cerebral way

(13:37):
like you, um, more of a of an organic, spiritual
musical way, you know. And I mean I really connected
with with his approach musically and vocally. Even though I
was really shy about singing, I would sing with him

(13:58):
in the shower or whatever. You know. Um, and you know,
I was just mesmerized by Bye, his covers of other things,
his arrangement. I mean, how do you go from davy
in my way? And they wanted to you know, we
can work it out. We're don't work it out. I mean,

(14:24):
who does that? And not to not to mention the enterner?
Who does that on a clavinet? So I was mesmerized, right.
I remember telling friends of mine in high school that
I would eventually play with Stevie Wonder. I don't know
why I did that. I don't know where that came from. Well,

(14:44):
actually I do it came from the Lord, because he
put that dream in me and I and I remember
just spewing it out, like telling people I was gonna
play with them. So here's what happened. Um, A dear, dear,
dear friend of mine who's a drummer was asked to
audition for Steve in New York by a former band member,

(15:08):
by a former Wonderlub band member. He got to my
friend and asked and asked him if he'd be interested
in in auditioning for Stevie in New York. So the
obvious answer was yes. The night before he left the
night before my friend left, I went to see him,
um uh, because I was just so thrilled for him,

(15:30):
and you know, he's packing and you know, we're talking
and we're all excited and everything. But he insisted that
I play some things on a cassette. Um and he
would give that cassette to Steve. This is the kind
of friend he was, so uh, he insisted I do this.
So I played some things, but I played I remember

(15:51):
one of the things I played was you are the
Sunshine of My Life. But I played it the same
way he did on the record, to kind of let
him know I understand smoked the how here right how
he thinks. And I played some other things, including sun Goddess,
I remember playing it, and I played like maybe one
or two other things, and then he my friend took

(16:13):
the cassette and flew to New York the next day,
and it seemed like time stopped. I don't know how
long he was there, but I remember, uh, one day,
maybe two three days later, um my friend called me
early in the morning and said, Stevie Wonder wants to
see you in New York today. Wow, exactly. So I'm

(16:38):
running around the house screaming like a banshee. My mom
My mom is like, you know, she's on her way
to work. You know, she was working in a hospital
um as a director of nurses, and she said, what
what's the matter with you, West Indian? What did you do?
So I said, So She's like, well, just bring clean
underwear the us, no matter what, No matter how bad

(17:03):
of an accident you get, if you die, the first
thing your mother's gonna ask was this or there? He stands.
That's that's all they want to know. So, uh, now,
but I'm asked to go to New York that day,
but I'm also asked to stop by Stevie's house to
pick up one of his brothers. So now I'm sitting

(17:24):
inside Stevie Wonders and I knew where he lived, that
there were there were many of us that knew where
he lived. But now I'm sitting inside the house, going, Okay, well,
I'm just here is sitting inside Stevie Wonders house. All right,
I'm just waiting for his brother, one of his brothers
to come down and we're gonna go to the airport.
All right. Let me just absorb this right now. So
Timothy comes down and go to the airport. Now, there

(17:46):
are a few backstories. Now. The first back story is,
remember I was telling you how I was sucking in
in college and um mom said to give it one
more try, and I remember saying to myself, all right, look,
I'm gonna try this one more time, and I'm going
to uh if nothing earth shattering happens our register for

(18:10):
the spring quarter on the last day to register. M hmm, okay.
The day I was leaving for the airport to meet
Stevie in New York was the final day to register. Wow,
look at God. And I remember being on you know,
going to the Metro report and it started snowing, you know,

(18:32):
and it's just like and it was April one on
top of all that. So um, fly to New York,
gets settled at the hotel, go to the studio. I'm
sitting on pins and needles because I realized I'm about
to meet my idol that i'd only seen twice in

(18:53):
concert before, and I'm getting ready to meet this guy,
like face to face, and I'm sitting there. I'm really
trying to cool. The engineer is just like, you know,
we're making small talk, but I'm just everything is just
I'm I'm really just just at the record place. This
was at the Hit Factory, the original one with the
one elevator and Cary Boys elevator there you go and

(19:20):
also known as the Gregg Feeling Gains elevator because I
have a story about that, that particular elevator. Yeah I do.
It will crack it up, um. But anyway, so I'm
waiting on. Finally elevator door opens, and you know, because
you're you're in the studio and there's a monitor that's
there's a camera that's pointing at the elevator to see
who goes in and out. Elevator door finally opens. In

(19:41):
out he comes, you know, thing his sister and is
towing him and he's just he comes in and I go,
oh my god, because you know, that's what you do.
That what you do. You don't say, but this is
what's going on in so uh, you know, and he's

(20:07):
coming in and so they say Steve Grace here and
so he how are you doing? And that handshake, that
single handshake was a thing that changed my life. M
We from that point on, we've made small talk and uh,
you know, he actually showed me uh an original unreleased

(20:30):
song of his and he wanted to see if I
could play it. I see it, of course, what does
an answer for that? A mirror? And it was called
Spring High. Oh. He ended up cutting it on Ramsey Lewis.
You're good, You're good, You're good. You you over there,

(20:54):
you're good. Okay, I've seen good. You're one of them.
So yes, but you know, at some point, you know,
early on he said he was gonna give it to me,
but you know, I'm not better because I know I
love Ramsey and it was fantastic. So that's the first
song I learned. How about that? That was the first

(21:18):
time I learned. Right, come on, you know, let's stave.
I didn't read my credits, but I know that song
very well. We have the eight track, so there was
no okay, okay, but when you think about it, how
about that chorus It goes da da dad d Right,

(21:46):
so there you know, Uh, too bad. I don't have
a keyboard anyway, don't say that. But but yeah, so
that was the first one I learned. Now that's the
night of April Fools. Next day is more of the
formal audition. Uh wait, one quick question, Yes, this is

(22:10):
this is nineteen seventy five, So songs didn't keep life
did not come out yet, No, he was he was
still working on it, okay, seventy five. Next day, it's
more of the formal auditions between me and an older
looking white guy, which I came to find out later
on much later, years years later, that guy was sent
to audition by Chick Korea because Chick heard about Steve auditioning.

(22:36):
And he said, this guy and wait a minute, wait
a minute. His name Mike Garson. And the reason why
I know this is because it was just like it
maybe a few years ago. This guy approached me at
the Nam show and Anaheiman said, I know you, but

(22:59):
you may not know me. I go, why sais because
I'm the one that auditioned against you for Wonder Love.
I go, You've got to be kidding me, my garden,
and he told me the whole story from his side.
He told me that Chicory has sent him, and I'm like,
you've got to be kidding. So I put his name, uh,
you know, my contact lists, and there's there's a there's

(23:19):
a picture of us, uh you know, standing side by side,
but there's another picture of me going right, so um
so it's between between me and Mike, you know. And
we're at We're at Bill's rehearsal. I remember Bills. You
don't know about that, Okay, it was it was called
but okay, fine, right, So it's a place called Bills.

(23:42):
And I met everybody in Wonder Love, including Alim Raymond
and and and oh my Nisy. And Nancy was very
very precocious. She would, you know, run up to me
from time to time. It pinched me on the butt.

(24:03):
I would going through the process, and from time to
time different band members would come up to me on
the side and go, it's ok. And so and I'm
still a little nervous, but I don't even remember what
I did was. I have no idea we were playing
all day. I have no idea. I don't remember anything
about it. I just remember going through the process and
playing with everybody and and and kind of you know,

(24:24):
feeling my way through and this other guy, Mike, you know,
And that was that. Uh So, after that whole day,
back in the car with Steve. Uh it's evening time.
Now we're on our way back to the Hit Factory.
I'm in the back, Steves in the front, and he
turns around. At one point goes, so, how does it

(24:45):
feel to be a member of Wonderlove? So my in
my head, I'm thinking, is he serious? Because now all
these things are coming back to me, like how I
heard he was a practical joker and he never you know,
all these things right, So I wasn't sure, So I said,

(25:07):
are you serious? Because of course I'm serious? Oh really?
So now I'm trying to think how can I prove this?
How can I prove this? As I said, what would
you mind telling my mom? Because it's not gonna lie
to okay Instagram mom, you ain't gonna lie to mom.
So he's just sure. So we get to the studio.

(25:28):
I dialed the house and give him the phone. The
first voice my mom heres is Stevie Wonders telling her
that he wants to have her son in his band
and he'll take care of him, and he thinks he's
very talented, and this and this and this and this
and this, and they talked for a couple of minutes
and then he answer phone back to me and for
the next few minutes, this is what you hear. So yeah,

(25:59):
like at that moment, did you like that your mother's response?
That's the first time you ever probably got that that
I well, we were doing that to each other. I
was just screamed. But the thing is that, you know
she thought, because she told me later on, she thought
that it was just gonna be a weekend flaying and
I was gonna, uh you know, meet him and have
a little thing and then come back home and go

(26:19):
to school. Well it was a weekend flaying. I did
meet him, and I did go back home to get
the rest of my ship. She was happy as a
music thing to make you some money. Oh, and that's
the punchline. It was a month before my nineteenth birthday,
but it was a month before Stevie's five. Uh, let's

(26:44):
say that again. A month before Stevie's birthday, which means
he was working on songs in the Key of Life
at four. That's crazy, Yes, it is. So when he
after he turned twenty five, was when that was released.

(27:05):
I was still trying to learn out of the time
my shoelaces and this guy songs in the Key of Life.
So let that marinate. Yeah, you put it in perspective,
because I wait, there's there's something I want to ask
you about your your Stevie experience. And I have two
other back stories. No, no, okay, but that story asked

(27:26):
me for you see, now I'm asking for another back story,
and okay, I'd rather you go okay, alright, So here's
the thing. The thing is, my dear friend, the drummer,
did not get the gig. I was wondering, okay, who
was he? Well, unfortunately you have to ask in that
you know, in that grammar, you have to say was

(27:48):
because Ricky Ricky lost. You have not experienced friendship until
Ricky Auston was a friend of yours. Oh man, Ricky
Lawson was the very definition of friend in every aspect.

(28:09):
I mean, you know you hear there's there's a line
that goes, he will give you the shirt off your
He literally would give you the shirt off his back.
Their story after story, after thousands of stories about how
he impacted people's lives just quietly, and he was the
sweetest guy ever ever, And there will never be another

(28:31):
Ricky Lawson. You told this story on Soul Train. You're
the first cat I knew that didn't even talk about
your album. It was a tribute to Ricky Lawson. I
was like, this is the weirdest thing. Usually have you
got two minutes to sell your product. That don a
new album and this is my single. And Donna asked you, like,
tell us about your beginning. He just said it's all

(28:51):
because of this man right here, and it was like
it was almost a tearful moment. I was like wow,
Like damn, I gotta treat the roots better because can
you tell the drummer story? Because Ricky didn't get the
gig but I know she used to talk about Ricky
all the time. Well he but you know, and it
turned out Dennis Davis. But it turned out that Steve

(29:12):
was just trying to um, I don't know, intimidat or
strike fear into the but actually the drummer that was
there was Raymond Pounds Pounce. So that's where I met.
But Ricky didn't get it with Steve. But Roy Ayres
was hanging around a lot at the time, and Roy said,
if you don't get it with him, you got it

(29:33):
with me. So he ended up with Roy, and technically
because Dennis was with Roy and Stevie and but Dennis
Ricky were like yes, yes, So it was it was
a lot of incestual actually going on there. But here's
the thing, so technically, even though I just joined Steves Bannon,

(29:53):
I was working on songs and the songs in the
Key of Life. Technically the first album that was released
and I'm on is Everybody Loves the Sunshine. Yes, yes,
it's not on not on everything, I think, on two songs,
but there's one song that I have a solo at

(30:14):
the end of it was I'm just I was just
blazing and I was very young and crazy and hungry,
and I was just like, you know, so, uh yeah,
that was the first thing that was released in them
on What equipment were you using at the time and
whatever the hell I wanted to what was that I
was working with Stevie wonder dude, he had two of everything. Well,

(30:34):
I'm just saying that now, you know, we get a cord,
we get a you know, because he's no, no, no, no.
First of all, I had several pristine roads, That's what
that's okay. I mean like roads like you cannot believe,
like roads like the intro to Superwoman. I mean I'm
like rhads right, and uh oh. We had the Yamaha stuff,

(30:58):
the c s A D, the ore Dred Mini Modus
and of course the dream Machine. No, no, no, no,
you know about the dream machine. This is no, no, no, no,
no way before St. Clavi. This is what St. Clavia
was trying to be like this man, that little automated No, no, no, no,

(31:22):
this is this is a custom keyboard from Yamaha UM
three tear keyboard. UM all white and chrome. And the
speakers are about as tall as I am. And for
those of you don't know, that's like five no five
seven on it on a good day. But they're they're tall,

(31:44):
beautiful speakers. And um, I have beautiful, fond memories of
sitting next to Stevie, just the two of us, wagging
our heads together, playing the parts to Saturn, playing the
string arts to Joy inside my tears, just the two
of us. Okay, that's just a couple of things. And

(32:07):
then um, and there are I believe, uh four of
these in the world. Of course Steve owns two of them. Um.
And they're not cheap and they're not even they're not
even in production anymore or they stopped, you know, years ago.
But uh yeah, incredible instrument. And so yeah, I mean

(32:27):
I I had, you know, well, my clappingets and all
that other kind of stuff. So let me ask if
usually in a musician's life. I mean, they're they're just
a sponge. When you know, if they discovered music early
from like ten eleven twelve, you know they're they're sponge.
They're open to anything. Usually your your your first taste

(32:48):
of maturity comes when you're like fifteen sixteen years old,
when you start like putting away childish things and you
know something affects you. Can you tell me I've heard
I'd like to hear the oounts of people when they
first discovered music. Of my mind was that was that?
Did that album have an effect on you as far

(33:09):
as like a huge whoa, what is this huge? See?
Because I love it so much? But of course I
was born in seventy one, so me discovered in nineteen
seventy nine is way different than being there in real time. Listen,
what was that moment like to hear those patches and
those like music like that? Well, I, first of all,
I just it just made me realize that he was

(33:33):
a visionary when it came to uh creating sounds that
that you know, that accurately described his feelings m h um,
you know, and and the the amazing way he used

(34:00):
the new technology of that time too, essentially orchestrate, because
you know when you hear things like uh, you know
again Superwoman, um, and his use of those uh I
sense and everything and and and and how he combined

(34:21):
uh you know, the newer instruments uh with traditional instruments
like piano, drums and so forth. So uh, and of
course the songwriting, every aspect of it, the songwriting, the
vocal approach, um, the level of musicianship because you know,
let's let's remember he played everything and uh so that

(34:43):
had a huge effect. But you know, it was it
was a it was a gradual progression because I didn't
just get into him songs in the key of live cousin.
It was like, you know, from it was from that,
but then you know, just just going along the ride,
the journey with him, the progression you know, from fingertips
to um uh you know, from even before no, no,

(35:08):
before that science you delivered please you know, um, the
cover of we can work it out? Um uh should
we do that day? You know, um right now, Yeah,
I met your match, you know, things like that, and
then from that, uh, slowly crossing over into the more

(35:28):
mature era, you know, starting with where I'm coming from
which was of course a precursor to to uh mind,
and where I'm coming from kind of doesn't get enough
credit because where I'm coming from had a couple of
gems like I Never dreamed, Let's not okay exactly, sugar
and take a Course and Happiness you know is a

(35:52):
song on do yourself no, no, educate your mind? You
know so geah just at yeah, you know, so all
that kind of stuff, and um uh so, going along

(36:12):
that journey and then ending up at the beginning of
the five Great album era, starting with songs with Music
in My Mind because the reason why I call it
that is because there were five albums that were completely
great where every song was great. There are other albums

(36:33):
before and after that had great songs but not complete.
Music in my Mind was a complete great album. Intervisions
was a complete great album, Talking Book was a complete
great album, uh Filling This Personality was a complete great album.
And we won't even discuss songs in Keip of Life.
So that's five right there, that five album run by
the way that ended at it's reminding you that because

(36:58):
he was one songs and give life was exactly that's
the perspective. But can I just give you one last
backstory about okay. So I was given another perspective years

(37:19):
later by one of Steve's former managers, who explained from
his end how the process went down for my audition.
So Ricky goes to the studio and the auditions and
he's told he doesn't get the gig. He kind of
leaves with his tale between his legs, you know, and

(37:39):
he's like obviously disheartened, and he leaves the studio. He's
outside the studio, he feels in this pocket and he
remembers that my cassettes in this that he still has
my cassette. He goes back to the studio and says
to one of the managers at the time, Listen, you
know I got this friend. His name is Greg, and
you know I promised him that I give this tape too.

(38:00):
He's a keyboard player, and I promise it I'd give
this cassette to Steve so he can check him out.
Would you mind just making sure he gets it? And
the guy said sure, puts it on a table with
a pile of other cassette. Steve was not there at
the time. He stepped away. Some time later, he comes back,
he sits down to the table with the cassettes. He's
fishing around. All of a sudden he grabs random sticks

(38:26):
it in press his plays. Let's thinking he's and then
he stops wagging his head because he's got like a
kind of disconcerted look on his face, and he he said, still,
and he goes he takes the cassette and goes, what's
this say? So the guy says Greg, of course he

(38:47):
butchered my last name, and so Steve reportedly said get
him wow. So because apparently, well I'll I'll get to that.
So he they they called Ricky pack they see a
Ricky and he was, oh, did he change his mind? Well,

(39:11):
well not exactly, but but you know your friend, can
you call him? O? So? So I know, right, So
so that's what. But then the reason why Steve reacted
the way he did, apparently legend has it, is because
he thought it was him. Oh, he thought it was

(39:33):
him playing and he couldn't quite figure it out. I
guess I left a bit of an impression, which is
kind of what I wanted to do. So that's damn.
That is crazy. And I actually remember telling Steve that, like,
uh maybe like it a couple of years ago, and

(39:54):
he said, all right, well that sounds we'll go with that.
He didn't that right, So you were just auditioning to
be in the band, but you wound up on songs
in the Key of Life four times, So okay, being
in the eye of the storm? What because I remember,

(40:18):
like now, it doesn't seem like a year and a
half was all that long to wait from seventy four
till it was Yeah, and it wasn't. You're very gordy,
So one, what what was taking so long? And why? Well,

(40:41):
of course I know that you know, fine Wine takes
it's time, but miss fine Wine and then there's Stevie Wonder.
So by the time you're there, do you know that
it's going to be a double album or two point
five albums? I just know it's a lot of Did
he know that? Um, I don't know. I don't know.
It was just because for everyone song that ended up

(41:04):
on the record, there's about three or four that didn't.
So you MOLTI you do the bath on that, and
so how many songs do you think around doing just
during that period? It's it's endless because you know what,
I have a few cassettes of unreleased stuff yeah. One. Two.

(41:28):
I'm pretty sure too, pretty sure, I have to and
just and that's not even you know, that's barely the
tip of the iceberg. And that's from back then, you know,
so it's it's added up over the decades. Um. So uh, yeah,
he had a lot of stuff, and he had he

(41:49):
had things like, um, oh, you you gotta hear this story.
You gotta hear this. You gotta hear um because it's
sort of uh ties in with your question, Um, all
kinds of unreleased stuff. And the night before my first
show with him, which was in d C for a

(42:10):
little thing called Human Kindness Day, which was on the
grounds of the Washington Monument. Two hundred and fifty thousand people.
That's my first show, there's an audition for you. So
um it's the night before and you know, uh, usually,
or traditionally, Steve would have a massive black bag full

(42:30):
of tapes of guess what so um I somewhere found
the you know, intestinal afforded to to ask him if
I could borrow the bag, and do you know, he said, yes,

(42:51):
what about that I have? I'm nineteen years old, I
have Stevie, barely nineteen. I have Stevie wonders bag of
unreleased music in my room with a pair of headphones.
What are you gonna do? Stay in there for like
a week? Okay, So I'm just rifling through. So I
can't I can't believe he said yes to this day

(43:15):
and I'm playing stuff and a mirror for the first time,
I'm hearing the original version of sin on Your Love,
and I cannot tell you. I cannot describe to you
what it was like. I all I can say was
that it was an instrumental and all the synthesizers were
singing what we're singing a mirror. Now you know how

(43:40):
it goes, you know, do Do Do Do Do Do?
But then it right. But in addition to the melody,
they had these backgrounds since going do Do Do Do Do,
La Do dud dude in harmony. I'm telling you it
was otherworldly. I never heard anything like it in my life,
and I'm it in there like it was like LSD

(44:04):
and the best we you ever can And I don't
do drugs, but I'm talking about it was like all
those combined. It was just like, oh my god, I
can't believe this is that. And that's one thing I
heard and I heard all kinds of stuff that I
I can't even describe, uh, the feeling, and and I

(44:25):
gave it all back to him the next day and
I was a change many Wow. So none of the
stuff has ever come out. The outtakes from from songs
in the Key of Life for the demos, and there
was another song called living for Your Love and I
think he has since released that. But the original version
of that was the best, and that was done on

(44:49):
the dream Machine too, and all these weird sounds and
bolao do do do? Dude? What what do do do?
Do do do? No? What I mean, just crazy stuff,
you know, And the original sin when You Love that
was I mean the version you heard was what seventy
five seventy six sounds? It sounds about. And usually when

(45:14):
we get stuff, especially yea spen water a little bit, yeah,
you just leave it off the record like yeah not yet,
yeah yeah yeah that one. And so the one you
know about doesn't it doesn't even compare. Doesn't even you

(45:35):
think you like that? Wow? So uh, I gotta know
why did he part ways with the Tonto guys with
Bob Yeah, Malcolm, I don't think it was anything. I
think it was just there in the program. Well, I
mean they introduced him to the whole world of sense

(45:59):
with with Toto, and I think it was just uh
time to change. Yeah, I don't think it was anything, um,
you know negative. I don't really know much about the split,
but I don't think it was anything. You know, I

(46:19):
don't think it's because of any issues. Well no, no,
I don't mean like was it amicable. But I was
just trying to figure out, if you know, for what
they were doing with him between seventy and seventy four
with you know, synthesizes were the size of rooms. Suddenly
Yamaha's making these because of what I want to know is,

(46:40):
is uh the the ability to play chords with these patches?
And what what year was it that you were able
to play more than one note at the well that kicked?
I can't remember the exact year, but um it it
was kind of going on when I was there because

(47:02):
of the dream Machine and because of the C S
A D. You had polyphony with those instruments. But I
think as far as the split from Malcolm and Bobby,
he just he just it just seems to me thinking
about it, that he wanted a more hands on approach,
and he was able to do He felt he could
do more on his own with the technology at that time,

(47:28):
because you know what, you got the r now and
you know, but that was that was even that that
was around even during a before songs and keep right
because that was on you know, it was the bass
sound for Boogie on. So I mean, you know, you
know that it was around. But I just think he
wanted to take more of her hands on approach and

(47:49):
just do just create the sounds on his own. So
what what songs are you on as far as the
actual tracking and right? So Saturn, okay, in Contusion And
the only reason why I'm on Contusion is because that
crazy line that Mike Simbella came up with. He couldn't
play it, and I said, well I can't, so he said,

(48:15):
okay go So in the riddle, that's me doing doubling. Yeah,
that's me. That's me doubling Michael on a on a synth. Yeah.
And that's the only reason why I'm on that. And
then probably my my favorite, well one of my favorites
for sure. Um well yes, isn't she loved like mine?

(48:39):
And one of my favorites for sure, Joy Inside My
Tears stream parts of that, so and I played the
roads on Isn't She Lovely? Yeah? So were those songs
all tracked together with a group of people? No, No,
Isn't She Lovely? Wasn't overdub I I definitely remember that. Um.

(49:00):
But I also remember meeting the subject of that song
in a little crib at his brownstone in New York.
And I remember going up stairs and looking down on
the crib and going, oh, she's cute. Um. But yes,
uh it was a rose over dub On it is
and she lovely? Um it was kind of like, um,

(49:23):
what was overdub on on contusion as well? Um. Steve
and I did the string parts and the the orchestral
parts together on Joy Inside My Tears and Saturn. So
when the album comes out in by the Way, we
we he actually had t shirts made up. We're not

(49:45):
done yet, We're almost We're almost finished. Yeah, So Steve, Yeah,
you guys are gonna be that for Voodio Warriors because
the end was taking five years with Voodoo. Yeah. Shurts
that you know, and you can still wear him today.

(50:07):
So I love that guy though. When when in seventy six,
in September seventy six when this comes out. What was
I just recently found? Have you guys ever seen that
ePK that's online when the press is hearing songs in
the Key of Life for the first time? Have any
of you guys seen this? So when you like google

(50:28):
Songs in the Key of Life e p K and
it's like a listening session of really of yeah, like
fifty key rock critics, even like Robert Christa Gallas there
when he was in like his younger days. But they're
all listening together and to watch them collectively jaw drop,
like after they hear Sir Duke for the first time,

(50:49):
and you know, it's it's one of the coolest things
I've ever seen. But yeah, it's on YouTube. Um, but
to watch people well that, um, you know, like I
was in first grade by the time it came out,
and what was it, September? My first my homework, No,
I've got socks older than you. First grade. Yeah, Like

(51:12):
my homework was, you know, have mom and dad by
this album? And you know, we all had our copies
and in school the next day and we're reading the
liner notes and all this stuff. No, the liner notes alone,
like changed my life. But what was it just in
in real time and tour behind this album? What was
it like to to Well, first of all, it wasn't.

(51:36):
He didn't tour off of this. Um wait a minute, sure,
I'm kind of sure because he he was like you
guys were in the episode of the Grammy Awards where
he was in Africa. Yeah, but that wasn't a tour.
We we went. We went to Legos, Nigeria because he
wanted to perform it on there and and it was

(51:58):
it turned out to be, uh, you know, in time
or during the Grandmason, we did a remote segment and
that's the that's where you you you have Andy Williams
asking the immortal questions David, can you see us? You
know that was the weirdest thing to watch as a
seven year old. He was like on this telephone. But okay,

(52:19):
that explains when he was dressing all that African garb
was at the shows. I I think, I think so,
I don't remember. I don't remember, but I think so
I have kind of I only have one memory of Legos.
But anyway, Um, what it is, well that that we
we rolled up and we stayed in this very opulent

(52:41):
hotel and it was like you know, gold fixtures in
the bathrooms and everything. And I remember remember my room
was high up, and I remember looking down on the
beach and seeing people squatting on the beach and and
and being in huts. Remember that, um, but it was

(53:02):
wild man. I also remember like the auditorium we we
actually performed that, you know, the crowd was great. They
were rock us, you know, and and I'm like, can
we're doing a remote broadcast broadcast to the Grammys. This
it's crazy, uh, but that's it. So we didn't tour
off of that album. He didn't really do formal tours,

(53:25):
just did one offs, like playing Jamaica and having Bob
Marley open for us. That didn't suck, um, you know.
And I remember when we were rehearsing and he told
us that we were going to Jamaica, Like, I immediately
went out and got um, uh Morley's Morley's album which

(53:48):
was what was that hallmark album? Was the name of that? No?
Um crap, No, it had I remember the name of
the album, and it had you know, let me up,
and and it had I'm looking, yeah, look it's it's
a class you know. He said, no catch a fire

(54:10):
burning Nattie Dread must be Nattie Dread. Okay, Yeah, Roots
Ruck Run, that's music, that's ross Man vibration. That one
well I remember, yeah, okay, so I remember getting that
and just playing it over and over again and then
like next thing, you know, we're Marley's opening up for us. Damn.

(54:32):
It's crazy. So that no touring though, because he's Stevie Wonder.
It's just different. He's just you know the place. No,
he's just he was just all over the place. He
just for those albums, like those songs, and that's so weird.
I thought he didn't tour behind a Secret Life of plans,
but I definitely thought he tour. He didn't know, no, no, no, no,
we like I said, my five days with Secret Life.

(54:54):
Yeah now my my my first gig was The Human
kind of Day in d C. And um, I don't
remember what what happened consecutively after that, but I know,
um uh Jamaica, um, you know, legos and things like that,

(55:15):
but but not a lot of not a lot of them,
a not a lot of action, not anything four more
or consistent that you would you would you know, classify
as a tour. But did he want you exclusively his,
because I'm trying to be out exactly when did you
ease to the Jackson's. Well, we were all on retainer
and that was that was the other cool thing about

(55:38):
being in the band. And it's like I just joined,
I just turned nineteen, and I'm making five dollars a
week and I'm like, Okay, this is it, this is it,
this is it on retainer like every week? And was that? Okay?
I'm so glad you said that for a working musician.
Was that a good living in the V six at

(55:59):
that time? Yeah? For it was great for me. Yeah, Um,
today that's not even an hour, but you're five. Back
then today would probably be like, you know, four thousand
a week or something, but yeah, something like that. But um,

(56:20):
or at least ten times as much is that? But no,
it was great. Um And uh So I was with
him from seventy five till the beginning of seventy nine.
January seventy nine. Um, the last chat shout with him
was in Atlanta, I remember that. And then it was

(56:41):
it was tough to say goodbye. Uh, but I realized
that I needed to or else I was gonna remain stagnant.
It's gonna be comfortable. You had to be a producer
or I had. I had a goal to to expand
um to the to the extent that I could, because

(57:03):
this was based on um promises, unkept promises of you know,
producing an album on Wonderlove. Everyone has that story. Yeah,
he kept promising as he was gonna, you know, do
an album, and it got to the point where we

(57:24):
believed him less and less. And then one day said
all right, look I'm doing this and this is where
we're gonna do it. We're gonna go, we're gonna leave here,
We're going out of here and we're going to uh, Louisiana.
We I don't know how he found this place, but
there is just I don't even know if it still
exists now, but there was back then a studio called
studio in the country. Never more was there an appropriate

(57:51):
name for a facility, because this place was in Bogalusa, Louisiana.
Thank you looked that up Google it. I don't even
know Bogelo exists anymore, but it did then and it
was deep, deep, deep in the country. And uh no,
it was a studio and it was a cool studio too.

(58:12):
It was it was it was a proper studio. It
was how deep in the country and the later so
it was it was deep, it was, it was, it
was in the sticks. But it was great. The people
were wonderful. It's still open. It is okay. How about
this studio in the country in Bogelis, Louisiana. We went
down there and uh, you know, we hung out and um,

(58:34):
I have to tell you about my most memorable experience
of being there. Because you haven't lived until you've been
in a car with Stevie Wonder. Yeah, I was waiting
with the car and driving story. So you haven't lived
until you've been driven. No, no, no, no. So here's
what happened. So we're feeling frisky. We're in the hotel

(58:55):
and you know, it was just like, you know, messing
around and all the sudden I don't remember who else
I was with, but it's a small group of us,
and somebody said, hey, Steve, you want to drive? I'm sure.
So we go down go to somebody's car in the
parking lot that it wasn't It was open, you know,

(59:16):
but there were very few cars in a lot and
we all get in the car and he gets behind
the wheel and it's like having the time of his life.
He's cracking up, and whoever was sitting next to him
was like, okay, go let's go right go laft. He's

(59:37):
like okay, and it's hysterical and we're just dying laughing.
We're cracking up, and I go, okay, this is something
to remember. Ship. Yeah, so that was the most memorable
thing unfortunately that happened. We made. We made a good
amount of music. We all took turns trying to be
junior Stevies. Um, you know, I came up with a

(01:00:01):
couple of songs that weren't really great, but you know
whatever and um. But then at one point he left,
I went to New York and that was the beginning
of the end, and he started phoning things in and
then all of a sudden, we just kind of left
us defend for ourselves. And I was like, okay, you

(01:00:22):
know what, this isn't really gonna happen. So I had
to make up my mind. And it was a tough decision.
But there were two times in my life when I
felt spiritually depleted and it was crucial for me to
move and that was the first time. Man, Yeah, so

(01:00:44):
what this was so now at the beginning of of
Secret Life of Plants or not. Well, let's see, no,
because I was still in the band when he was
working on that, I didn't play that was all him.
What was the general but general, what was the general conversation?

(01:01:05):
Because you know, usually with what they called the departure record,
it's supposed to be seen as, yes, this is my
artistic left turn, and dada da da da. But I
guess later in life, all of us here sort of
discovered that the departure record is kind of uh means
to ruin it before you get ruined, or it's the

(01:01:29):
self sabage, sabotage move and as was well, I mean
just most most departure albums usually happen after your biggest
your biggest album, and you don't want to express the
fear of you having run our ideas or that sort
of thing. So it's sort of like it's safe to

(01:01:49):
do with let me, yeah, let me do the absolutely
left turn. Trouble man, Yeah, trouble man around the world
in a day. I'm sometimes it backfires and it becomes
even bigger. So, I mean, what was just the general movement, like, Hey,
I'm gonna do an all instrumental album Another World's Waiting. No,
I don't think it had anything to do with that.

(01:02:11):
I think you have to look at it like this.
I think it had to do with wanting to take
on the challenge of doing a score. This was a
score to a movie done by a blind guy. Let's
just let's just know that the movie was done by
the score. Was the score? The score? It okay, okay,

(01:02:36):
a blind guy doing a score for a movie? Like
who does that? Who does that? So he who hires
that guy? Somebody really crazy? Um or somebody really extra visionary?
But um no, he I think he just dug the challenge.

(01:03:00):
He was really into the challenge of doing it. And
that was the premiere of Someone You Love. But he
really got into it. He really got into the challenge
and wanted to know as much about the movie, you know,
as many details as he could get, and he just
forced his entire being into that. For the record, that's
my favorite Stevie record. I mean it's just you know,

(01:03:25):
I was eight years old and that was that was
my Pink Floyd uh Dark side of the movement. Put
the headphones on his my eyes and imagine stuff and
it just like I don't know about oh this pop
hooks and my dad hated it. So he's like, here,
you take it. And it just spoke to me as
as an eight year old, so it's pretty well you know.

(01:03:45):
Actually we're talking to him right now about doing some
hopefully it's some some dates like to do it and
it's entirety your life for plants. Yeah, that's okay. Did
I just let the cat. We'll just well gut this
until after for words for you, bro, good luck with that.

(01:04:12):
I mean we're in the talking stage. Um, it's been talking.
Just dream it's our dream, so I mean that's basic.
Dreams can't come true. But I just good luck with that.
I'll be calling you. We'll need to cross audience. So

(01:04:34):
it was Destiny. You're first foray into arranging and really
to me, it's reducing and like, why, okay, we gotta
get into the titles of because I only saw these
credits on Jackson Down like finger Snap a Ranger. You
know that's because they were all dying for credit. Yeah,

(01:04:56):
I get it, because they wanted they were so desperate
to be on their own and they just wanted to
do Okay, look, I'm the one that set the Mic
you know, you know, I'm the one that chose the
studio whatever. The Jackson's have the strangest album credits of
all time. That's stuck with me for life. So talk
to me about you coming aboard for Destiny. I will.

(01:05:17):
But to answer the question, no, it wasn't my first
for right for right into arranging because I was cutting
my teeth. I was allowed to cut my teeth arranging wise,
thanks to the partnership of Dick Griffy and Don Cornelius.
Thank you who have served some time in Griffyville. Yeah,

(01:05:40):
Soul Training Records. Yeah. No, don't say don't don't you
dare say Uptown Festival, Please, don't say it. Shala Mars
School Garden. No, but but let me see. Did I
do some shilling? I think you did the Soul tring.
Oh god, I remember that, But I remember doing I
remember working on different artists. If there's an of course,

(01:06:00):
I believe it. Of course, um uh Dix Dix Lucas,
I did uh a couple of her albums. I did
uh uh. There was another Oh god, there was another band.
It was like two guys and they had sort of
like an Indian name. And I can't remember right now. Um,

(01:06:23):
but they had all these they had a small stable
of artists and including the Whispers, and I did a
lot of stuff and then they let me just do
they just let me arrange. Wait, you know it's weird
um in your Wikipedia. It's that I know, car No,
that is so I don't know who, and they won't

(01:06:45):
take it away. I don't know who the right to
make that correction, but it's really annoying. It doesn't matter
because one of the Dixie Hummingbirds was my grandfather and
I got you know, I had to get embarrassed on
National TV once they told me, like, he's not your grandfather, yeah, exact. Um.
So you did some time under Soul Train records, but

(01:07:06):
I enjoyed it, and I remember working a lot with
the Whispers, and I remember one of the twins saying
to me, you know where your problem is? I don't know,
because you know, too much back handed compliment, but you know, yeah,
he's like, yeah, I didn't understand it then, but I

(01:07:27):
sort of get it now. Did you work on Let's
Go all the Way? Yeah? Yeah, So when you're brought aboard,
like what were you there just for session work or
like what what was your title? I don't really think
I had a title. I wasn't like a I wasn't
like a a staff producer or anything like that. I

(01:07:50):
was just brought into play sessions and sometimes arranged either
horns or rhythm or whatever. Yeah. Now I want to
get to the Jackson Okay, go so um, dear friend
of mine, Bobby Colombia, uh blood swing in tears right

(01:08:10):
the Yeah, the drummer who became an executive at CBS
said you know, you need to do more arranging. And
I go, well, I don't know, really seriously, No, actually
you do. And here's who're here. Here, here's who who
you're gonna do it with. Next thing, you know, I'm
in a room with the Jackson's, so uh met all

(01:08:32):
the brothers and you know, now you have to remember
the time. This was when they finally left it clutches
of Motown and uh, this was after the Philly thing,
you know, and so now they're trying to establish themselves
as producers. But CBS was cautious, so they brought in Bobby,

(01:08:56):
yes to make sure things didn't get two out of hand,
you know. And so, um, were you were where? I
mean was okay, dude, I mean you were part of
songs in the Key of Life by the like was
the Jackson's or going places on your radar by then?
Or was it like dude, no no, no, no, no, no,
no you I love the Jackson's. I I had just

(01:09:19):
as many dreams about them, just about as I had
of Steve. Oh no, absolutely, man, because the thing well,
first of all, when I was eight and I saw
the Beatles on Sullivan, I said, right, that's what I
want to do. So the Beatles um just changed my life.
And then the Monkeys changed my life because they were

(01:09:44):
the American Beatles, and then the Jackson Five are the
Black Beetles. It's just fantastic. I mean they even have
their own cartoon show. What band you know? It has
their own cartoons on Saturday is It's fantastic. So I
was all, you know, please, I want you back. Are
you kidding me? Are you kidding me? Right now? So

(01:10:05):
it's like, yeah, I was all about the Jackson Five,
and I had visions on Wow, wouldn't it be great
if I could actually like meet them or work as
it was incredible. Next thing, you know, I'm in a
room and here they are and we're doing the Destiny album.
And my first assignment was this little um overly white
bread tune call blame it on the book, blame me.

(01:10:27):
I was like, blame the Dane date. I'm like, okay,
well good, let's see how we can funk this up.
How did they find? Yeah, well, back then it seems
kind it's kind of it works because no one expects
it when ye when they spent it exactly. But back

(01:10:47):
then it was like, really, we're gonna make this a
Jackson thing. So my my Bobby brought that song to
you guys. I can't remember if Bobby brought it to them,
but were they well actually yeah, um yeah, you know,

(01:11:08):
uh generally speaking, yeah, um. But my montra back then
was all right, I'm out here on my own. What
would Stevie do? That was my thing. What would Stevie?
What would Stevie do? So, you know, and I would
bring in like former band members to play on. Uh.
You know, those are early recordings, and so I'm always
thinking what would Stevie do? So it's like, all right,
let's see, I gotta make it funny do So that's

(01:11:36):
what you know. That was the basis of that. And
then you know, things Um built from there. I didn't
do the horn arrangers for that song, but they did
turn out cool. Um was that Tom Tim or it wasn't.
It wasn't yet, I don't I don't remember who did
the horns for that, but Tom Tim didn't Um come
until later on. I mean time time did the horns
for shake your Body Down? I mean that was you know,

(01:11:59):
they they they wanted bad at that by that point,
they definitely wanted to earth win a fire influence, you know.
So we got a little a little Tom Washington come
in with his crazy stelf. I love Tom, but for Destiny, yeah,
that's that was the first song, and then we just
took it from there and it was, you know, marriage
made in Heaven. How do you even approach like you're

(01:12:22):
dealing with the five of them? Who's the alpha as
far as like the music ideas? Who do you have
to like? Who's the dad? Who's who's the person you
have to get the idea from? Because I'm certain then
it's like, well want my piece? And it was all
of them. It was all of him in that way,
you know. But was it a psychological thing where it's

(01:12:44):
like you have the Jedi mind trick and I don't
like this arrangement. I don't like this song. And my mind,
Jermaine was broke vocal, Jie was vocal. No, no, Zachie
was actually not as vocal, certainly not a vocal as Jermaine.
I think that the the the main characters. And yeah,

(01:13:08):
sorry I lost something. I found it. Okay, you know,
I'm having so much fun right now, I want to
do another one. I mean, did Jermaine come around? I
just in my mind? Okay, you had the crush. Okay,

(01:13:34):
all right, Marlin girl, let's see. Okay, so we had Michael, Randy, Randy, uh, Marlon, UM,
Jackie and Tito. Okay, so the the most vocal were um, Michael,

(01:13:54):
Marlon and Randy. Randy was one of the more creative ones,
okay for sure. And um, but all the ideas were
just kind of running through the the the general pipeline
between all of them. Um, it wasn't. I don't. I

(01:14:14):
don't remember being as difficult as you might think. Um.
But you know, here's the thing, though, so they usually
love they generally love my ideas. You know, what was
the division of labor, like working on destiny? Like who
did what? Oh gosh, well, uh, a little foggy on

(01:14:42):
the best way to answer that. Um, they all kind
of wanted to chipping, for instance, with with with can
you feel It? Was on Triumph, right, okay, so I
gotta I gotta go to that album as as an example,

(01:15:04):
so can you feel it? Specifically? UM? I had, you know,
several orchestral ideas, um, and one of them was like,
you know, during the main part of the Vamp, you know,
and so you got that thing going on, and then
you got, um, so I had it to where you know,

(01:15:26):
you'd have an orchestra chime followed by a gone, I
mean by a timpany, so you'd be like like that,
So um, you'd have that. You know, you'd had like
one eighth not being the orchestra chime, and then the
very next eight being the timpanie. And so they you know,
we had one guy do the chime and another guy

(01:15:48):
do the timpany. Everybody wanted to, you know, play a
part in it, and it was cool, you know. UM.
So I would just answer by saying, they all kind
of wanted to do whatever they could it was reasonable
to contribute. Question about things I do for you? Oh yeah, Now,
it's seventy eight, so all in known by Earth Winning

(01:16:11):
Fire is about a year old. How much did Jupiter
have to do with that song? Because basically like East
Dude five minutes later, fift tickets later, like literally, the
the first verse and the bridge of things I do
for you is like from the DNA of of Jupiter

(01:16:34):
by Earth, Wind and Fire, of which I mean, I
gonna imagine that, you know, most songs. I mean, I
even think that the DNA of of Teddy Pendergrasses, get up,
get down, can get loose was somewhat of a basis
for shaking body down to the ground, isn't It's because

(01:16:59):
most songs. But I don't think of it that deep.
But the thing is that most songs, most songs are
usually started with them. How can I how can I
twist it? And I totally agree with that. I did
not give it up. You know, all about let's dance,

(01:17:21):
Let's shouting, was all about like you know that that
was so I can imagine that the DNA of that
stuff just being up in the air and then taking
it Okay, Well, while I didn't, while I never looked
at it that way for that song, I do see
your point. And to that point, it's very possible because

(01:17:42):
I can tell you that they were highly influenced by E.
W F as we all were. Because for um uh
Heartbreak Hotel, they wanted the exact same a sound uh

(01:18:04):
from Fantasy m They wanted that. They specifically talked about
that to the point where we brought in Verne to
try to have him duplicated on there, dude, right, and
he couldn't. I mean because he sat him down and
asked him what was that sound? He was like, I

(01:18:26):
don't know. We couldn't get that thick sound it was like,
you know in Fantasy because they wanted to duplicate it
for um uh Heartbreak Hotel, and it was close, but
it wasn't. Actually, it wasn't even close. It wasn't it
wasn't that same sound from Fantasy. And we were slightly disappointed,

(01:18:47):
but you know, we used it anyway. Um um, so
what what was I going to say about that? Yeah? So,
I mean to your point about that, this is what
was the song you put things I Do things Possible.
I I just never looked at it that way. But
it's an interesting take. Well. Also, um, you're in the

(01:19:11):
thick of disco yeah, and I'm super shocked there's no
four on the floor. I mean the remix to to
blame it on the bookie was four on the floor
enough with a little extra Conka things. But you guys
were obviously putting all of your eggs in the basket

(01:19:33):
of shaking down to around because I was gonna say,
what do you think that was? But here's the thing, though,
it's like, it's that was such not since seven seven,
seven eleven have I heard a funk song and which
the one, the two, the three, and the four are
not even emphasized. Okay, mayor I have two words for you.

(01:19:53):
Hit me. You're welcome. Yeah, but it was you know,
I came up with the beat you did. That's why
that's why you're here. But it's like it's it's it's
and disco is at it's flaming. I mean, you guys

(01:20:14):
were basically David to this golife. I don't know why
did y'all decide to take that risk. I I didn't
even look at it like that. I don't know if
they did, I certainly didn't. I just my thing was
what would Stevie do? And I wanted to come up
with something really cool, and you wanted to go with
funk and not disco. That's what That's how it spoke

(01:20:38):
to me. So I wasn't even I wasn't thinking about disco.
I was thinking about what would be the most effective
way to make this, this long song remain interesting six
minutes later. Was there even a suggestion for a bridge

(01:20:58):
or no? No, because it was cool. We all knew
it was cool the way it was. I I just
wanted to give it something unique rhythmically that would drive
it the and my and my and my my inspiration
was was Steve's unorthodox drumming style with the high hat instead.

(01:21:19):
So you were thinking like love having you around like that,
that whole like, yeah, I was thinking most Yeah, I
was thinking, that's why I came up with you know that,
I had the times everything. And by the way, when
we had ed Green the legendary session Drummer play, he
couldn't play the whole thing, I don't know. He had

(01:21:40):
to do it in three different um. Okay, so when
we got we when yeah, I heard the master, Yeah,
I heard the master of it. Yeah. And once I
pulled the second and the third edition of the Drummer
away and her just a typical boot like, oh, this
is a normal drum break. Oh yeah, no, no, no,

(01:22:02):
what it was. But that was the first take I
heard that, and then then the times and then the
I had. So what was on your mind when you
added those tim tims? And in such an odd spot
because I didn't add it in my head, I was
able to play the whole thing at once, So my
the the the entire thing was. So that's how I

(01:22:26):
was hearing it. And that's but but since he could
only do one bit at a time, that's how we,
you know, mapped it out. But for me, it was
the whole rhythmic concept that I felt would work for
the for the whole song. That was not normal thinking though,
well that's because I'm a keyboard player. It wasn't normal.

(01:22:46):
It's the it's the equivalent like I'll explain that. It's
the equivalent of all right, if you go to roulette
table with a hundred bucks and then let's say like
you got lucky and then you made three hundred and
you could just you're walking away and you're in the
parking lot. Greg basically did the rhythm version of wait,

(01:23:07):
I'll be right back, and he ran and just put
everything on like one, not even on all black. He
just I'm gonna play forty two and see what happens.
And there's and it's Russian roulette. Really, is that how
you look at it, dude, because it's like they got

(01:23:28):
three chances. I mean, okay, the Jackson's was fine, and
they went gold and it was cute, and then you know,
the little summer serious thing on CBS kind of sustained them,
but going places was like a decline. And I love
that record still, but they needed they needed hit. And yes,

(01:23:49):
this was Super Bowl Patriots versus the Giants with yes,
I'm making a football restaurants. Yes, I'm waiting. I'm waiting
for me to mess up. When you saw in the
Super Bowl the last ten seconds left and the Giants
just do hell Mary passed and all right my first

(01:24:13):
reference I got correct. No, dude, that's it's that's just
amazing to me because no, because I lie, I wasn't
really looking looking at it that way. I just, first
of all, if I felt that kind of pressure, I'm
sure I wouldn't have come over that. But I mean,

(01:24:33):
I just you know, they played me the song and
I thought, oh, it's so cool. Let's dad, So you're
not conscious of your genius? Stop that I wasn't. I didn't.
All I wanted to do was come up with a
really hip and different groove. And again it goes back
to what would Stevie do? And that's that was the

(01:24:54):
inspiration for the whole thing. Does he know that? Does
he know that? You think you approach things that way?
Ste Does he know? I think he does? Or didn't
you know that? I know he was the template for
that song? No he didn't know it that wow. No,
So don't stop to get enough. Did that bridge right itself?

(01:25:22):
We know you know, but you can play it? But
actually I should have. I should have brought my little souvenir.
We found it by the way you found it. It's
a podcast. It's not visual anyway. But you know I
have at the house I have with both our names. Yeah,

(01:25:46):
were talking about Yeah, we found about after you Okay,
So backstory Greg did me and Boss Bills class and
n y U where he told us the story that
he's about to tell. And since then, it's been my
mission to find every forty five with your name on it,
and I have three now really yeah, hell yeah, that's

(01:26:09):
that's my obsession any and he don't stop to getting
enough with your name on the writer's credits. Wow, I
found it alright, so tell tell the story. Okay. Well,
and you know, Spike asked me to tell the story

(01:26:29):
to when he did the doc um for What Was
It right? And I did and he loved it, but
it didn't make it. A state states like, I don't
think the estate has no control over this show, so yeah,

(01:26:52):
because they stay it was like, I don't think so
because I don't think so um so um get a
call from Mike. He wants me to come by um
two write a song or to hear a song to write.
I go, okay, So I pop on over to haven

(01:27:15):
Hurst and uh see him and he uh plays me
this thing. It's just, um, it just needs something. It
just needs another section. So I hear it, and you
know it's fantastic. I mean, you know, everything's there, the
first the hook, you know, cool groove, everything's great. Say yeah,

(01:27:39):
it just needs one more second section. So I go
and probably in the time that it would take you
to hum the Jeopardy theme song, I came up with
Q Bridge. Okay, So I I played that and then

(01:28:13):
I said, so, what do you think? He goes, I
like it? Oh yeah, he says, yeah, this is cool.
So I'm thinking, okay, well, now he did ask me
to come over to ride, so I'm guessing I should
call myself co writer. So I says, well, um, so

(01:28:35):
I am I gonna get it piece of this? He goes, yeah,
it really says yeah. I says, well, what do you think?
He goes, what do you think? I go, what do
you think? So we're doing We're going back and forth
on that. So now in my mind there's another sound
for what's going on in my mind. But it's just

(01:28:56):
like the wheels are spinning and and all this is
happening in nanoseconds. Right, So I'm thinking, oh my god,
what do I say? What do I What do I say? Um?
What's how much? Too much? Forty? No? Not quite? I
don't know. Well maybe I'm not sure. I don't know.

(01:29:19):
So I keep talking my s times. I talked myself down.
I talked to myself. I admit it to what numbers?
So I said, well, how about that sounds fair? I know,
I know, like I know, but stay with me. So
I said, what what about ten percent? He goes, Okay,
I go really, because yeah, I don't even know how

(01:29:44):
I drove home, because I'm sure I could have levitated.
I'm like, so, I'm just like lupy at this point, right,
and I'm just so excited. Some days passed, uh I

(01:30:04):
get something in the mail. It's a contract. Open it up,
and um, I'm looking and I'm scrolling out. First of all,
I don't even pay attention to the fact that they
misspelled my last name. I don't care. I don't even
care that they used the T instead of a peep.
I don't care. I don't care. Still in games, yeah,

(01:30:25):
so I don't care. I get past that it is.
It's it's at the top of the contract anyway, I
don't care. I scrolled down. I go, man, I'm looking
for the punchline, and I see it's in there. Okay,
so um. Some more time passes, right, Some more days passed,

(01:30:49):
and then I got a phone call and it's from
one of uh Mike's managers at the time. It was
either Ron Wisen or Freddie Demand, and it was probably Freddie.
And he said, is hey, Greg, you know that contract?
Pretending I said, yes, no problem, is on the way
back to you. Any any second out of no worries,
He's like, well, not so fast, and this is where

(01:31:15):
you have the sound effect for a breaking car, Like,
and I go, what do you mean not so fast?
Because well, Michael's been thinking about this, and it turns
out that he is determined that what you did was
more of an arrangement. So that falls under the category

(01:31:40):
of arrangement. So what we're gonna do is we're just
gonna go, We're gonna we're gonna pass on that contract part.
So thanks for your contribution and we'll check back with you.
What you get for the arrangement? I mean, what the
what's the difference money? Oh god? Yeah, well I got
a pat on the bag. And see, this was my

(01:32:02):
introduction to business. Slight slight question though, did you have
a lot more to say about it? But did you
let me go? This is one of the times I
got to interrupt. So with destiny and triumph. With destiny
and triumph, weren't there any talks of hey, guys, can

(01:32:25):
I get co production at least? Or what am I
doing here? Because here are those sessions you're like leading
that ship? Yeah I know, I know, And and yes
there were and there was an answer for that question,
and they had no There was an answer. The answer
came in the form of the term associate producer, which

(01:32:51):
doesn't mean it doesn't mean anything. But you know, they
figured they just throw me half of an old bone
and shut me up. That's the answer to that question.
But I gotta go back because um, as I was
saying to a lie, my introduction to the business, and
and the fact that I was not only young, but

(01:33:18):
of the makeup that didn't want to fight, non confrontational.
And this is the difference between me and I'd say
nine out of the ten artists in today's world, because

(01:33:38):
they are freaking savvy and they don't care. And I
applaud them for that. I applaud them for their their
business savvy and they're they're they're their understanding. But unfortunately,
in a lot of ways, nothing has changed from it

(01:34:00):
happened to me, and you know, forty years before that
in the fifties, to this to to these days, because
there's still those horror stories of people just being grossly
unfair for virtually no reason. And who did you you
said the tempers that would have broken? Of course not
wasn't that? That's not the issue. The issue is I

(01:34:21):
want no yeah, yeah, I want it all. And the
issue is, but now, while this is going on, while
these days are passing, and while the the you know,
the contracts and the works, and before I get the
phone call from Freddie, thet the single was already going
to print. It was already being pressed. That's why you
have initial copies with my name and Michael's because even

(01:34:48):
people like Quincy thought, oh man, Greg is in he's
in there. Ma. He was so proud of me. And then,
you know, because that was the first pressing, so it
already went to press with my name on it, only
from Michael to change his mind later on. See, that's
when we talked to Quincy. He had this kind of
disposition of yeah, that's Michael, and I was messed up,
but that's Michael. Yeah. But guess what, there's a Quincy

(01:35:11):
version of that too. And if you want to hear
that Quincy Jones story, make sure you tune in the
next week for part two, The Quest Love Supreme Interview
with the one and only Greg filling Games. Yeah. I know,
I'm sorry to leave y'all hanging like that, but you know,
all it is, y'all, Uh, make sure you'll come back
next week. We'll have more treats for y'all. We'll see

(01:35:33):
you on the next round. See It. Quest Love Supreme
is a production of I Heart Radio. This classic episode
was produced by the team at Pandora. For more podcasts

(01:35:54):
for my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
SU