QLS Classic: Michael Brauer

Grammy winning mix engineer Michael Brauer talks about the art of engineering, his studio secrets and what it was like working with artists such as Coldplay, Luther Vandross, Aretha Franklin, Grace Jones and more.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of Course Love Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio.
This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora.
Grammy winning mix engineer Michael Brower talks about the art
of engineering, his studio secret and what it was like
working with artists such as Coldplay, Luther Vandross, Aretha Franklin,
Grace Jones, and Moore. This was episode fifty six from

(00:24):
November first, two thousand seventeen. Suma so Surema Row called
Subrama son Supremo Row called sagrama son son Sma Rogue

(00:48):
called Sugrema So. Quest Love is single, Yeah, Quest Love
is free. Yeah, Quest Love is dancing. Yeah. Quest Love
is on the bum road called Subma s roll call

(01:08):
my name is Fonte, Yeah coming through when the clutch. Yeah.
I can give you a little but never too much.
Number two must sure roll call Surema Suma role my
name is Sugar. I'm never sour that purple room give

(01:30):
it back brown Sua sua role called Suprema rolls bill
ain't ready Yeah, ready to start? Yeah, rewrote my roll
call had to change of heart roll roll call small

(01:57):
Yeah with Mike and his hands. Then touch Key Joe
Cole play hold No God, damn Brower, Um Brower. I
don't know what else to say, but brower, roll roll

(02:28):
call Srema Suma, roll call, Sumama roll call. Well like
you actually hit the on the head, right, I could
just name them all. Luther, Change Man, Ingredients, Caryl Lynn,

(02:49):
Grace Jones, Jones, Girls, Queen Guthrie, Angela Bofield or Aretha Franklin,
James Brown, Tevin Campbell, Gladys Knight, Meat Lot, Tony Bennett,
Paul McCartney, David Byrne, Billy Joel, Uh, Hall of Notes,
Kick Rio on the Coconuts, Glennon Joe, and now the
show's overla alright. Now what they all have in common
is uh probably a very distinct sound. UM. Probably most

(03:14):
notably Luther Vandro's had such a sheen and such a
clean text or to his music, which I feel defined
eighties FM Radio brought to you none other than the
master engineer with us today on quest of Supreme. Welcome
Michael Browner to this show. Guess, thank you, thank you. Now.

(03:36):
My my personal favorite shows of any shows that we do,
UM are with the President Company excluded, Looking at Sugar Steve.
Are are the engineers UM? Because they to me, shape
the sound of the artists that we love so much,

(03:57):
you know what I'm saying, and uh, more than you know.
Often I don't even think the artists really know that.
I don't think the artists know much of the science
that goes into the product that they delivered, But the
engineer can explain it. So we thank you for doing
this with us. Honored, Yeah, honored you. Uh you you

(04:19):
agreed to do this so for our audience, that's not
too deep technical nerds, what is the role of an
engineer to get the vision of the artist down on
tape as closely as possible, to record it in a
way that when you put the faders up, you've got

(04:41):
the feel of that song nailed. Okay, So it's more
than just a documentation of of the event, but trying
to get the emotion and a feel across. Now, often
are you part of because people don't know that tracking
a song it is different than mixing a song. So

(05:02):
is it important for you to actually record the song
so that you can really determine the control of what
comes in? Can we can we wind a little bit?
What's the difference between what is tracking? Okay, Well, it
is tracking. There is a big difference between tracking and mixing.
Tracking is when you're recording all the instruments to multi tracks,
too many different tracks that you can control the volume

(05:26):
over later. And so how you record the drums and
how you record the vocal and the bass, all that
is very very important to make sure that the field
of that song comes out properly. And um, I started
at a studio called Media Sound, which was an R
and B studio primarily on and I just spent seven

(05:52):
days a week in there, just you know, starting as
an intern and then working my way into an assistant.
But the point that I watched that I that was
made clearly is how great the engineers were at the
studio and how well they they recorded the sounds so

(06:12):
that the artists would come in and just go, oh
my god, this is exactly the way it should sound,
and you know, and and um it would change from
song to song. Media is where you first enterned, like
that was your Yes, Media Sound was my first gig.
What year was this? This was seventy six, and then
I was an assistant by seventy seven and then an

(06:36):
engineer by sight. Wait why did that whole process take
me eight years? You know? Times are different. I mean,
back then everybody moved up pretty quickly. On it was
just I've just noticed how quickly it slowed down. I

(06:57):
mean it was a time as media sound down, and
many of the studios you had an engineering staff comprised
of the staff engineers and then the assistance that were
being taught by the engineers, and then the interns, and
eventually the engineers would move on and assistance would move
into that slot. And then around seventy nine or eighty,

(07:22):
when the bottom fell out a disco and all the
labels were basically getting rid of their roster, studios couldn't
afford staff engineers anymore, and they only had on payroll
the assistance. So moving up to become an engineer slowed
down dramatically by two or three years because the engineers

(07:43):
coming through we're all transient, you know, they were just
coming in for a bit and then moving on, and
so studios just wanted basically professional assistance. So are you
seeing that from the mid seventies to the very early
eighties that there was actually a boom and upward h

(08:05):
mobile movement? Because when I hear any veteran of the
music industry talk, they always speak of, you know, the
slow down period of of a particular part of the
recording industry. You know, some people think that period was like, well,
the early eighties. You know, the industry was over and
it was over musically almost every period every year it's

(08:28):
like it was over. It was over. So well, you know,
the studios were starving because there were no more acts
coming in. They had all been dropped, right, so um.
But so in order for studio to stay open, they
couldn't have staff engineers also on payroll, so they forced
pretty much most of the engineers to go independent. So

(08:52):
when people say, like thrillers save the record business, like
that is not much of an exaggeration because from the
period that you're saying, like those early eighties, like it
was kind of it was a time when when bands
came in and they had carte blanche with a budget.
And I remember this distinctly because of our food budgets.

(09:13):
I mean what we ate Jenny Launch and dinner was amazing.
And then one day none of those bands showed up anymore.
They were all off the roster. Uh. And then you
know when it started to bands were starting to come
in and say, okay, so what do we do first
food budgeting. Oh no, no, no, no, no, we don't

(09:33):
have that anymore. Nis. Do you think that MTV sort
of helped with that as well? I mean, of course
with Thriller? Yes it was the Yeah, I think it
was super important. It's also important that bands that were
maybe mediocre but had great presence via MTV just became

(09:55):
huge hits. So who do you remember your Did you
get a job at the studio as an intern because
you what? Were you in love with music or was
it just like I gotta get a job with me?
I was a drummer on the band. It was just
a cover band and we were out in the Midwest. Um,

(10:16):
and I I liked what I was doing. I wasn't
sure that I was going to be good enough to
make a living off of it. But I had gone
to Eastman School of Music right when I graduated, for
it was like a two three week course, and it
was there where I met on Well, there were there

(10:37):
were a lot of a lot of people, but one
of them was um Phil Phil Phil No, no, no,
his name, Oh my god, it'll come back to my
But anyway, anyway, Um, what was an engineer or no,

(10:59):
it was a great producer. He just recently done. I
can't believe I just Phil Ramon, Phil Ramon, thank you
very much. And you know, until then, I was I
was pretty scared of what they were. They were very
technical and I didn't understand anything they were saying. And ah,
I was thinking, man, you know, I just I was

(11:21):
a performer. I want to continue doing that. And how's
this going to go on with with people just talking
about e q s and reverbs and wet and dry?
And I was like, oh my god. And so it
was after a day of lessons and um, we're all
sitting around and Phil Ramon is talking at a table

(11:41):
and we're just sitting around and he's, you know, he's
just talking about how when he's mixing and his hands
are moving and and it's a table like go, wow,
this looks like he's performing. And I thought, man, this
could be amazing. And there was at that point, just
watching him describe how he mixes. I thought, this, wou

(12:01):
is perfect. This is what I want to do, you know,
I want to continue performing. And it just to me
it was like instead of playing drums now playing the console,
when did the days of like I'll see old studio
photos of the Beatles and even some James Brown studio
session photos and like engineers were actually dressing like engineers

(12:24):
with the white lap Like when did when did that
particular period come to an end for engineers? Like that
was mostly going on in England man Abbey Road. I
didn't see unless there was a couple of studios where

(12:44):
the jazz studios where that was very evident. But I
never saw any of that. I don't think that was
really going on in uh in any of the American studios.
So how how important is math and equations to you? Like?
Do you go, I'm a guy that goes on feeling

(13:06):
like I'm you know, I'm just learning about different dB
levels and hurts hurts and you know, overdriving the thing.
You know with hip hop, it's just like more about
feel as opposed to you know, science. A guy like
Bob Power would say, well, you know, too much base,
uh four level base will cause your record to skip
and dada dada, so you got to balance it and

(13:27):
take it. You know. He come up with these equations
because I know that you're you're calling card or your
signature is how you use compression, which I used to
think compression was the enemy of music, but you made
it work. So like how important is is? I feel?

(13:49):
Everything else is a coincidence. I mean you can analyze
it and go, oh, he does this and he does that.
Or when I started with mixed with the Masters, where
I needed to teach and actually verbalize what I've been doing,
That's when I had to actually kind of study what
I'm doing. But it was always by feel. If I

(14:10):
was looking for a delay, I would just turn it
till it went you know, if I slap on a vocal,
I would just keep moving it too far, too little,
and just m that's not right in but you know,
I mean I'm not making a joke. I mean that's
when he gets on the board, he just you know,
he'll he'll boost up the level and then sweep sweep

(14:33):
the frequencies. And so that's how I learned. That's interesting
because throughout my when I was I guess out of college,
I was interested in being an engineer, and then I
realized the science of it, and I figured at some point,
even though you are doing it through ere, at some
point it's like you have to know the formula of
mega hurts into this and goodness, I didn't have to
do that, because then I would have never could have

(14:56):
been That's actually what kept me from doing it, because
I almost was a music engineering major in college, and
then I saw all the physics classes inquired Well, you know,
it's interesting you say that, because I was terribly intimidated
by people who talked like that, I mean really really bad,
and I would have to leave the room when they

(15:18):
start talking to Oh my god, I'll never be like that.
They're so smart, you know. And there and I'll give
you the best example where I learned my lesson and
this they changed me forever. Um. It was a media
sound and we have just started. It was right after
outside engineers are now being allowed into studios because the

(15:38):
media sound, you there were no outside engineers. You came
to Media sound to work with their engineers. But with
the desk, death of disco and studios opening up. Um,
there was this engineer and so he's describing, you know,
we're just in the lounge or just hanging out, and
he starts saying, yeah, I've got this acoustic guitar sound

(15:59):
and I've not this m S positioning where I've got
ever two inches one mic over the other. And then
I bring it up and I bet you know, it's
like beer and baseball to me, you know, And I'm like,
oh my god, I'm just and I started getting that
feeling in my stomach where I'm just like, oh man,
I'm never going to up. And I was just like, man, this,

(16:26):
I just wish good Sky would shut up because I just,
you know, it makes me feel awful because I don't
know what he's talking about, and I'll never do that.
So I go, hey, can I hear what you're doing?
He goes, yeah, yeah, come on in. It was in
studio way. It's beautiful room. I know it, you know,
every inch of that room, and he plays it and

(16:49):
it was crap. And I was just like, wow, that
is not good at all. And I said, oh, thanks man.
No I didn't say no. I was just like, I said,
did you say that? You know, I'm just thinking myself, man,

(17:14):
what an idiot? I am all being intimidated and everything
and walking in there thinking this guy is god, you know,
and it sounds like crap. And so I left there
and I thought, never again will that happened? Because it's
always about feel and I don't anybody start talks big yeah.
If I go in and I listened to it. It

(17:34):
sounds good, then I'm going to be curious to see
how he did, and I'll be interested in learning. But
all the talk talk talk, and all the numbers you
need to know, and you know that anything and and
b it never meant anything. I mean, you know I learned.
You know it was because of being around Luther, and

(17:56):
you know that that whole crowd, in that whole field
that I started mixing in the up on the upbeat,
Like I never really moved much. I used to move down,
and I'd be the only guy in the in the
room on the feeling, you know, on the down and
every and I look around everybody else heads are popping

(18:17):
on the up. You know. I was like, well I
would try that and I'd fall out of him. I'm like,
I really am the only white guy in this room.
You know? Can you can you trust your ears in
a studio? For me, the final word is when it's yeah,

(18:38):
when it's outside the studio. And I know, like most
studio speakers are intentionally built to be more dry than
what your home experiences. Like, how how often can you
just know okay, this is this is it? I really
trusted my speakers. UM, I would take it home, but

(19:01):
it was never My speakers at home were never accurate.
They were kind of whacked, and so I stopped doing that. UM,
and I listened to headphones. But then I was intimidated
by listening to my mix is UM in my headphones
because I was afraid they'd sound awful and I'd hear stuff.
So I was I never wanted to put headphones on. UM.
A lot of insecurities to get where I am. But

(19:25):
you know, I actually what I learned to trust. I
was mixing some records in Japan and they had this
boom box h and they played back my mix through
the boom box. And when I first started doing that,
I was like, wow, man, this boom box sucks. It's
good at all. And then you go, oh, you know,

(19:48):
maybe we fixed this. We fixed it, Like yeah, okay,
but I mean, you know, listening to this that's awful.
And then it got sounding really really good. And then
I listened back to on my pro acts. I was like, whoa, wow,
this that's great. I thought, ah, yeah, you just learned
something and you've you've probably seen it in my room.
It's like this old Sony box. Every song I've ever mixed.

(20:13):
I mixed through there, and I trust that radio. So
when I know it sounds good there, it's gonna sound
good on my proacts, on my A, T C S
or you know, all the other speakers, and it's gonna
sound good outside. And and I also learned a lot
from mastering engineer. I mean the first ten years or so,
I mastered everything with Greg Calby at Sterling. So you

(20:36):
would you would you wouldn't trust the process of them.
You would actually go and make sure that they didn't
flatten you out or anything. Well, I was learning. I
mean he mastered my very first record, and so I'd
go in there because back then it was called Mickey

(20:56):
and Becky was a Christians Oh okay, recorded and recorded
and mixed and uh they were really great people. I
mean so many stories with that record. But you know
that was a first record and the cover had a banner,
big banner across the two of them, you know making it. Yeah,

(21:19):
what the first record? Who were you an apprentice under?
When you finally got to assistant? Who's your Who was
your My mentors? Um were Harvey Goldberg, okay um and
Michael delug On and Fred Christie and Clear Mountain, h Tom,

(21:41):
Tony bon Jovi. I mean, there were a lot of
great guys, but the two that really took me under
the wings were Michael delug and Harvey Goldberg. In your
assistant days, what were your clients like? Were they local, accidenty, national,
or about everything? I mean fat Back band talking about
Wait a minute, you know Tony bon Joey was doing

(22:03):
fat back and and uh, I mean just all you know,
heavy R and B was name Yeah, well good, good questions?
Remember two of them at least? Yeah, fat back, I'm
like Spanish hustle. Yes, none of them come to mind.

(22:23):
Now I was so long ago. Let me see, would
the hustle? Yeah? He as well? Oh yeah now it was.
But it was Van McCoy. He was a regular. He
was a great guy. Um Man, I don't know how

(22:46):
old were you at this point on? I started at
twenty five, so at this point in I started pretty late.
Were you scared it was older than most of the
engineers than Fair Mountain? Wow? Yeah? And Harvey and all
those guys. Were you afraid when you finally took the
reins on your own or like, how do you make

(23:07):
that that leap? Most engineers. I talked to either their
league guy like decides to take a vacation or sick
that day. And then next thing, you know, well, they
were great there because you start off by doing overdubs. Okay,
so you would record a guitar overdub, and then you

(23:29):
move on to maybe backing vocals, and then you eventually
moved towards doing all the percussion and then strings and
then horns all separately, and eventually, you know, the day
comes and I remember the day I got the call
because it's so it's gonna be uh, you know, it's
gonna be an AD date. It's gonna be pretty big session.

(23:52):
It's just gonna you know, drums, bass, and you know,
the rhythm section and then maybe and maybe backing vocals
and the singing and stuff like, Okay, that's cool. I
can handle all that. And then about ten minutes later,
the orchestra show she calls back, she calls, this is
for the next day, and Vivian Deluge calls me and

(24:14):
she goes, so listen, you know they're also going to
have strings and horns um at the same time. It's
all live. It was studio way. It was a huge,
huge room and she says, you know, I don't. I
don't think you're quite ready for that. I was like, no, no,
I'm ready, I'm ready. I can do it. I can
do it. She goes, you're sure, Yeah, yeah, I'm really sure. Okay. Click.

(24:37):
I went over the bathroom just ready to pass down,
like okay, I can do this. I can do this.
And then she calls back again. She goes, look, I
don't know, Michael. Now they've added also a whole whole
percussion section, vibraphone, you know. And I was just like, yeah,

(25:00):
no problem, it's no problem. Click. So you're saying that
typical disco sessions. This was an ad date and so
it was for a commercial or you know, for for
some kind of who knows anymore. It was a long
time ago, but but they had, you know, a lot
of musicians. I mean, because the studio during the day

(25:23):
we were doing commercials and then comes six o'clock we
were doing records because you couldn't get any musicians during
the day because they were getting double and triple scale, right,
So nobody was doing records during the day because records
a single scale back then. So so media sound was
very well known for doing commercials from nine am to

(25:45):
five PM, and so I'd finished at five take an hour,
and then I'd start records until and I was doing
double shifts. I didn't care. I loved it. So I
want to get into some of your clients, um, Billy
Joel before we start with all the the ones you

(26:10):
want to talk about, which was Let's back up because
with Billy Joel there's some of these acts like Billy
Joel and arrow Smith where it was part of a
box a box set, you know, I would just do
a couple of songs and I never met Billy, I
never met Cash from arrow Smith. So those were one offs,

(26:30):
which you know, was fun. But I read you also
did mixing on Freddy Hubbard. Did you do? Yeah? He did.
Red Clay was a direct Clay album, and it was
another it was another Ctl record, and that turned out
to be, Yeah, he's still in your your swag right now,
Red Clay still that I'm dunking it. I'm approaching the

(26:59):
hoop um elevating. Uh what about Red Clay, well, because
that's rudy right, Yeah, but it was it was after,
way after the record had been done, and I don't
remember why it had to be remixed. But that show

(27:19):
was you know, that album was remixed and it was
Steve Berkowitz. I believe that was, you know, the head
of that, the live version of the studio version. It
was so long ago. I think it was a studio
version because you were you weren't coming from the hip

(27:40):
hop perspective, studient version that's tried live version as far
as that. Ye, um, So, I mean other what other
CTI records were you associated with? That was it? I
mean again, it was it was going through Sony, through
Steve Berkowitz being released. You know, just like the Dylan records.

(28:02):
There was a point where they were, you know, they
want to do S A C. D. And so a
lot of these records were being redone with the Dylan records,
the masters have been lost. Oh so you're completely mixing
from scratch. You're not just taking the half inch in
the final the original. Wow. Okay, so what pressure is
that on you? Because I'll notice that this explains a

(28:26):
lot when um, like when I go on iTunes and
I'll hear variation in the mixes of like the box
set versus the greatest hit remastered versus the original version,
and you know it will be a ring in the
snare and I'll notice different mixes. Um, of course you'll
you know, I assume that you'll try and stay faithful
to the original. But what keeps you from but you're

(28:49):
known for such sheen? Like what if you're doing a
project that is okay, if you're doing something from John
Wesley Harding or something from like, yeah, it's trash out
trash something. It's trash. It's not appropriate to make it
anything less than trash. So you do believe in the trash.
I love trash. Okay. See, this is the thing that

(29:10):
because I was just gonna say, when I was listening
to some of your stuff Getting Busy, how dirty get
busy is right? I was like, listen, man, I want
to make something like that for you because it's dirty,
because I don't want to do sheen. Was sheen was
years ago? You know that That's what was cool? What

(29:31):
times change? The thing is like when I think of,
like even when I think of what hip hop was
trying to be the anti or go against, especially like
with Public Enemy, Like I'm thinking, oh, Luther Androw's because
I like, what's the shiniest, most brightest, most clear I mean, now,

(29:53):
as a DJ, I respected, you know, because I love
when a good mix translates over uh the system. But
how how do you think uh as far as like
you're definitely did you set out to say, I'm gonna
like just redefine what R and B was, because, with

(30:16):
the exception of Off the Wall, most R and B
records weren't that super clean. Yeah. With Luther, you know
it was. I mean, there was nobody like him when
he came out, Nobody was singing like him. But um,
it was pretty basic R and B. And I think

(30:40):
the sound we were getting at media sound. It's not
like I did something completely different than what we're already
doing there on I think I just he looked at me, goes,
you take care of the sound, I'll take care of
everything else. And he had met me when I was
doing the Change record, and he really liked what I
had done with Glow of Love, um, you know and Searching.

(31:01):
Those were the only two songs I've done on that record,
and he was like, yeah, that's all he needed. And
he was like, I really like what you did. You know,
He's just, you know, I don't know if I thought
you you had my voice a little dry on Glow
of Love and I go, yeah, but Luther, you know,
it was just like it brought that vulnerability out because yeah, exactly,
and I wanted more reverb. Can I ask you guys

(31:22):
a question as a novice, like what would be an
example of a badly mixed R and B record to
get people like a reference point? There was the great
I mean not honestly, like for real Prince albums print, yeah,
Prince Records. But this is the thing though, that was
part of the kind of Prince albums are that, And

(31:43):
he admitted that, you know, because he did it in
his bedroom, you know what I mean. And the thing is,
if you work too much on a song, your ears
will start lying to you. I don't know, do you
agree with me? Or are you above the no. I
like to take a lot of ear breaks if I can. Yeah,
Like a lot of times, like okay, a cat like
Kanye West will blast, He'll blast his music on the

(32:08):
biggest speakers ever and you'll wear your ears out. So
a lot of times when you're mixing, you're supposed to
mix it on soft speakers, very low level, because the
thing is if it sounds good on crappy you know,
like your clock radio at home, like what he was
saying about his bucks like sound excellent. So you shouldn't
wear your ears out and you should take ear breaks.
But um, I don't completely agree with that. I really

(32:31):
feel it physically. I mean, I start off with the
big speakers with my I've got the A T. C
fifties and a big gas sub. And when I'm getting
the drums and the bass and you know everything else on,
it's cranked. But I don't do it for hours. I'll
do it for you know, under an hour, clearly, but
I'll get to the point where I physically feel it.

(32:52):
And when I know where everything is in it's right spot,
then I'll start to turn it down. And then I'll
progressively get the smaller speakers the point where it's on
my radio. But I gotta physically feel what I'm mixing.
I gotta feel that bottom in and the kick hit
me under the you know, in the stomach, and snare
in the chest. And but to finish the point, if

(33:17):
those first ten Prince records had a professional scene mix,
it wouldn't be the same record age like his. This
is where Bill kind of gets mad at me because
I'm slicing everything after the love Sexy period, like once
Prince upgraded to Paisley's Park Studios and had you know, better,

(33:38):
better equipment. I just I hated it. I hated it
because it just the songs were great, like and Stevie too,
same thing. The songs are great, but I felt the
personality was in the mistakes and the kind of like
a Wu Tang record, like you know, like Dr Jerry

(33:59):
is great for seeing. But I love the risk of
in the basement with Mildew and you know the second
they went to l A and did would think forever
got all clear? Right? And I was like it sounds
like everything else, so sometimes only the best won't do.
So how how how much of a taskmaster was Luther

(34:23):
as far as like his his his discipline is in
overtentiveness is unbelievable because I know the concert He's like,
what is it like in the studio it was a
great experience. He I mean him and and not Adelie

(34:44):
who was arranging and on the first record he was
this was in studio B at Media Sound and he
was in the vocal booth and then the band, the
whole rhythm section. You know, it was basically performing recording
it live and once he had a great vocal take

(35:04):
that was to take. I mean that first album, those
are all I barely touched any of the vocals. Those
were all the rough vocals. Those were the final vocals
on on that first album. When you say touch on
what what what what do you mean? I hardly did
you know? There was maybe maybe I you know, re

(35:25):
record a word or two, you know, just it. But
it wasn't even edits. You know, it was all hitting
recording in and out real quick, so just jump in
and out on one or two words. But you know,
it was an incredible first record and it was done
in bits. You know, we did, you know, two songs
on a weekend. It was over a period of a

(35:47):
few months, easily because he didn't have a deal yet.
But but to answer your question, when you'd see him
get to work when it came time for doing backing vocals,
oh my god, it was just in preable to watch
because you know, the first he always doubled the backgrounds
and who you know, they would be the regulars you

(36:09):
have Fonzie and Off, Brenda and Sissy. Occasionally Sissy would
kind of come in as a you know, as a guest,
but there there was an even Whitney came in a
couple of times, but you know, he had the regulars,
and then he would do the first pass and then

(36:31):
the second pass. He would change everybody around and say, okay, Fons,
and you take this note, and I'll take this note,
and you know, and invert and invert stuff. And and
if somebody just went off a tiny bit or you know,
they were doubling and someone else, he'd notice it right
away and got no, no, no, fix that. And and

(36:55):
so the reason why the backing vocals always sounded so
incredible is because he wasn't just doubling. The doubles were
always different, really yeah, because you know, he would just
have people take different different parts. When you're when you're
initially tracking a song, like take all right, let's take

(37:17):
never too much? Um that was not up in the lounge.
How much pre how much pre uh work goes into
you're tracking before you know you have a take? In
other words, uh does the band have to play it
over and over again until you pre mix it known,

(37:41):
I've I get the sounds before they walk in, or
well they'll walk in, you know. With never too much
would have been Buddy Williams, right, Um, Buddy would have
come in and I would have gotten the sounds on
him back. Then you'd get these in like ten minutes basically,

(38:01):
and so do do do do do sn SNAr snarre,
kick kick kicked. Okay, We're good. And then bass that
sounds close enough for Luther or or Marcus did not
be discouraged, like, I don't know this sound. I'm trying
to imagine what a rough mix of Never Too Much
sounds like, because to me, the sheen of it all,

(38:26):
there wasn't the makeup on it. To me is the product,
you know, not the glue, the hair weave it was.
There wasn't much difference really between doing the rough in
the final mix, because I was recording it that way.
I was recording it feeling and final. I was riding

(38:47):
the faders during the recording um, and all the monitors
were set at basically one o'clock, and so the way
I would record is to keep leaving all the tracks
at one o'clock. And I did all my rides so
that when when i'd have to bring that song back

(39:10):
up really fast, I could just do it with a
pencil and I'd have my balance the exact balance, because
you know, if you got to do backing vocals on
four or five songs, it's not like you got ten
minutes or fifteen minutes to get a rough mix. You
need it right away because they're onto the next song.
So you just with a pencil, it goes and there's

(39:32):
your mix. And so when it came time to mixing,
the mixing took like a couple hours, like two or
three at the most. It's crazy. We were media sound.
We were If you took more than three hours to
mix a song, you were just not cool. Really cool. Yeah,

(39:53):
we would mix today. Well, it's it's just that he's
saying the exact opposite of what my experiences are. Like, Okay,
take on things for all apart take Act to Love
My Life, which is pretty much a Root Supporter favorite um.

(40:18):
But the rough mix sounded nothing like the final mix,
and a lot of my compositions it's strictly done on
faith of don't worry, guys, we mix it. It's going
to sound like this. Yeah, and it's like you know,
and for the longness, Tarik hate it. Like the version,

(40:38):
the version that's a rough if a finding concept, maybe
I'll leak it out it. I mean, it sucks compared
to what the final was. And I just had to
be like, yo, man, that's the right to it. No, no, no,
But just like just he didn't like it. Common started
right into it and I was like, all right, let
me have my verse. But because the tracking when we
were done, it just it had no life to it.

(41:00):
And I was like, dog, just trust me to see
my final vision. I'm strings to the thing. I'm gonna
mix the snare you know, they have to snaps on
it and all this stuff. And then the final mix
it was like, Yo, this is nothing like that. But
that's what you're doing the production in at the time
of the mix, that's what's going on there. That's the
difference with Luther. Everything was done as we were recording.

(41:24):
All the decisions were made at that time, and so
come time to mix, it was just the final process.
Everything of the record is done. Now just put it
up and write it properly and as you're done. So
if you want to put a phasing effect on the
base or something, or just a little bit of course

(41:46):
on it, you would do that as you're tracking. If
if everybody thought it was a good idea, yeah, and
then we committed to it. Okay, see all right, you
just thought that if it sounds good dry, then it's
like okay, this is a song, and then wait till
we dress it up. Well yeah, but did it sound
good dry? Not really? Okay, that's that's where we went, Well,

(42:09):
let's make it feel great, because otherwise we're not going
to print it when we recorded, it's got to feel great.
Everybody in the room's got to be excited. You said
it so much that thought it was like some extra honor.
And whoever the engineer was that was mixing the album
after it was done, Like I always to my in
my mind, I was like, Okay, the recording engineers one thing,
but the mixing engineer, that's like a whole other level.

(42:31):
That that developed into it where you had guys who
were became strictly mixers, like myself. I mean the first
person I remember that being like, wow, you know, people
are coming to him just the mixing would have been
Bob clear Mountain, so it is, and Tony bon Jovi
and and uh, I mean Godfrey and a lot of

(42:53):
the guys at the studio became just really really in
demand for what they could do with these tracks. But
you know, let me ask you a question, Michael, um, So,
when it started to become this person is a recording
engineer or known as a recording engineer, and this person's
starting to become solely known as a mixed engineer, did

(43:16):
it immediately start to be some kind of like a
financial different difference as well, like a mixing engineers notoriously
get paid more than recording engineers and mastering engineers. I
don't know if they get paid more than mixers, but
it seems like, you know, it started to become more
separated and very much in the beginning. My question is,

(43:39):
why do you think mixed engineers deserve to be paid
more than recording I've always obviously they're being paid for
their for theirs, but no, I mean to me, tracking
or recording. It's pretty hard working cho your ears you're using,
and you're spending way more time than I am to

(44:01):
mix what you spent weeks and months were recording. But
it becomes a specialty, and ah, the more you can
really enhanced the vision that the artist had originally and
do it in a way that is blowing everybody's minds on,

(44:22):
the more in demand you become if you, if you're
a mixer, were the only people that like your mixer,
your friends probably gonna get all that much work. But
in the beginning, everybody who's an engineer was a mixer
did everything. You did everything then. But we started to
realize that some guys were much better energy and at

(44:45):
engineering than they were at mixing, and vice versa and
vice versa. I always thought that Bob Power was a
way better mixing engineer a tracking engineer, but then master
is a whole Another level is like if the mixer
is the peasant to I mean, if recording is the
peasant a mixer, then mixer is the peasant to masters.

(45:07):
Like the last step, that's the last step that you know,
hopefully what's mixed. If you're doing it right, the mastering
engineer shouldn't have too hard a time, but he probably
gets paid the most. I don't know about that. There
really depends. But but as you said before, the same
thing holds true. Um, if the recording engineer does his
job right, then the mixed engineer shouldn't have too over time.

(45:30):
There are tracks where if I know I'm getting something
from Joe Chiarelli or or a bunch of great engineers
and I know I'm gonna be mixing them. I'm like,
it's gonna be a good day. Okay. So since you
said it, I now think that the mixing engineer has
it harder because there's been a lot of times where

(45:51):
my mixing guys will be like, like, you know, I
understand the nightmare they're going through. Um. But then we
have a situation with one of our interviewees where they
said that they got it. Who said that, Oh, just
Blaze explained that you know, they would get bad uh
tracked jay Z songs? Oh yeah, And a guy like

(46:15):
jay Z doesn't understand the technical jargon. He's just like, yo,
I wan't mistake in two minutes. You know. It's if
you're with a client that is not you know, the
technically you know up there with this I Q to
understand certain things. Then I almost feel like the mixing
engineer would get more abuse because it's like, Yo, why
my ship sound like that? Because that's how it came.

(46:36):
They're not going to understand like, well, you know the
tracking was bad and dad, so yeah, I never we
learned not to use that as an excuse. We just
made it good and we had to figure out how
to make it sound good. I mean way before drum
samples and we're doing you know, like disco records, and
you get this kick that goes like what am I

(47:00):
gonna do with that? You know? And and we learned
how to make it sound like a great kick. So
are you more? I'm not afraid worried about um the
producer and artist at hand versus the an R and

(47:21):
label president like so says a great example if now
Rogers was extremely satisfied with the way thats the Diana record,
Barry Gordy gets it and like this ship sucks, you know,
and then hired his own guy to remix that entire album.
So I know that because the majority of your stuff

(47:44):
was on Sony and Arista and stuff that you know,
is Clive talking to you like, you know, I like
my mixes and Dad, Well, it's very clear what you
were going to hand into Clive. It was gonna have
to be all about the vocal. And so the challenge
was to make sure that you've got a real good
groove going with the rest of the rhythm without making

(48:07):
it sound like it was a huge vocal up. And
that's where I learned how to accuse certain things out
of the records, so that for Aretha, I could make
her sound really really loud, but you could still feel
the track around her. So, uh, of your of your
of your hits arsenal. What was a recalled nightmare? You know?

(48:29):
Did you have to do Freeway Love like five times over? Like?
How often would you have to recall a mixed until
all parties were satisfied. There wasn't much that going on
back then. You know, you might recall it, and back
then it was almost like a memory. I mean they'd
start writing stuff down a little bit, but I would

(48:50):
just kind of put and recording. Like now you know,
you can recall something instantly reproaches. There's no comparison. I mean,
there's just no compare. So now you've got to do stems.
If you're recording on I mean, if you're mixing on
an analog desk. Um No. Back then, you know you'd
recall the desk and and I mean I got my

(49:12):
guys trained so that you could, you know, you could
match the mix to the recall perfectly. I mean, it
really had him taking good notes, but quite often I
just throw the track back up and it I don't
know I would do the same things I used to do,
and then I'd look at it and it would sound
just about the same on But it's interesting you brought

(49:33):
up Freeway Love because that was the turning point for
me that particular record with Narada, because something changed. Well
I didn't record it, and that was a bit of
a challenge, but he wanted a lot more bottom end

(49:54):
than I had ever done before. And that was truly
the most terrific day or two in my life because
as I added more bottom end, the vocal started to
calm down because the stereo compressor was just grabbing, grabbing,
because the stereo compressor reacts to low end more than

(50:17):
top end. And he'd say, hey, give me more vocal,
you know, bring the vocal up, and I was like,
oh my god, and then the bass would get squashed
and just a whole mix start going. So I survived it.
Let me put it that way. I still can't really
listen to that song without thinking when I went through

(50:37):
better But Steve, what we're telling my Freeway of Love
by Aretha right now, and it's it's a funny song.
I never understood the lyrics, but the pink but the

(50:59):
my that you would use for her. It was fen
I used. I used a four or fourteen a kg
with with Luther and everyone everyone, and I had it
angled in a certain way so it was the bottom
of the microphone was just tipping at the nose, so
it was kind of would look at their face, That's

(51:21):
what I was getting. I was getting their face and
their throat as opposed to just the mouth, so I
get the nose and the whole face. And and if
for wreath of example, if she would you know, kind
of edge up into the microphone because it was licking down,

(51:43):
I would just put a dummy mic in front, so
she'd be singing into like a fifty seven. It's like
keeper position problems held up like yeah, yeah, wow, look
at that. So about four or fourteen that's got that
had a really nice area. And then I was using
my kneeve, you know, I was I was recording on
a Nive desk exactly like the one that we have here.

(52:05):
What kind of what kind of pre ampts or compressors
are you running them through? It was the nivamp and
the Nave compressor that was in the desk. Wow. So
like no outside like tube tech notice not no not
when I had the knives, it was perfect. So not
another one of your clients that I'm really curious about. Um,

(52:28):
I've always wondered about the the quote unquote compass point
sessions of of Grace Jones's trilogy. Um, did you mix
and I mixed it? So did you have to go
to the Bahamas do order? No, that's after no, I
mixed it the entire album. Yeah, I really love that record, man.

(52:50):
I mean, you know, for hip hop heads, the my
Jamaican guys like you know, it's it's a staple. So uh,
in doing that record, which you know, of course with
Slide Robbie as the as the as kind of the
rhythm anchor of that album, and then being known for

(53:11):
a lot of the stuff that they don't reggae music, Uh,
what was it like for you to sort of incorporate
because a lot of that record, you know, you have
to use a lot of reggae effects like echoes and
all those things. Like what was that process like mixing?
You know, it just came to me a lot of that.

(53:32):
It's just this is what it has to be, and
you know it's back then, it just happened. Spontaney spontaneously.
That's right. It was no just another day really yeah. Well,

(53:54):
I mean, you know, just the legend of of of
Compass Points Studios and well, I we're supposed to represent,
you know now and it's legendary folklore. Yeah, I mean,
but Sly and Robbie were incredible, just incredible. So mixing
those records, Um, Chris actually produced those records or I

(54:16):
don't feel when it came and also did it too. Yeah.
I came in later, you know, for the mixing of it.
So I don't know what process, but I think Chris
was always involved in those records. Talking about Chris black
Womack was that stone because Slid Dunbar and Robbie Shakespeare,

(54:39):
thank you, thank you. But they're known as Sly and
Robbie as infamous rhythm section. They're based in drum, drum
and bass rhythm section. Yeah. In the folklore of Compass
is Compass Points Studios is uh a facility and I
believe Bahamas yeah and the Ahamas um and pretty much. Uh.

(55:06):
Chris Blackwell wanted Grace Jones to get out of disco music.
She was doing, you know, like Violet Rose Viva and
I forget the she was doing like album and a
weird disco ship and he wanted her. He was like,
you would have a better fit, uh doing more pop

(55:27):
reggae stuff because like the police was hitting and sort
of using that together. So uh, what they call the
Compass Point Uh trilogy is her three albums Nightclubbing, Uh,
Live My Life, Nipple to the Bottle, Pull Up to
the Bumper, all those songs that you know Grace Jones
for we're recorded there. I love Spring learned something new

(55:49):
every hour. Um, Okay, I know it's it's not classy
for an engineer to tell, but there has to be
a hard client, like one that just RUGI to the limit. Yes,
there's hardly any records that I feel that you had

(56:10):
bad results in, but yeah, everything could have been a
sunny journey from em. No, there was one ah where
I was just mixing his record. It's not good to
tell you, but but I'm gonna tell you that he
comes in and uh, he says, all right, he puts

(56:31):
his feet up on my desk, right right on the console.
Now I'm like, okay. You know, as we grow, as
we grow wiser, you get to understand how different people
you know, tick and by doing this. He was gonna
show me he was in control. That's what. That's what,

(56:53):
you know, all the body language was saying. He walks
in and he's yeah, he wants to piss on there
and just say this is territory, but in fact it's mine.
So he says, all right. I said, all right, I'll
let that go, and he uh, he listens to it.
He looks at me, and he goes, yeah, you know,
it's okay. But I got a problem with this. I

(57:16):
got a problem with that. I'm like, okay, fine, let's
get to work. And he just complain and complain and
complain and just really was there was no point in
it now. I was, I believe the third mixer on this,
he'd already mixed this record with two other people, and

(57:38):
they said, I think I know what you're talking about.
And they said, Brower, you're the only guy that can
be able to handle this, because at that point, reputation
for you know, knowing how to deal with a lot
of different egos and stuff. And so we kept going
at it and going at it, and and he just

(57:59):
started getting more and more upset and being more and
more disrespectful, and finally I stood up and I went
I was like, well, this session is over. And he
looks at me and he goes, what do you mean?
I still got more like no, no, this session is
over because at this point he's kind of swearing at
me and you know, okay, and I just stood up

(58:21):
and I shook his hand. I went, see you okay.
Can I just ask one question? I was one time
I did this. Can I ask one question? Does this
artist go by three names? Doesn't go by three names?
He went by one name, quest Love. Oh, it was

(58:46):
really a great story with Trent. I did Terence. Um, yeah,
I mixed and I did some extra production on If
You Let Me Stay. And when I was first being

(59:07):
introduced to him on Lincoln Clapp was the I mean,
not Lin. Lincoln was his last name. Oh, I can't remember.
Um Lincoln was introducing me using A and R for
for Terrence and um. So he introduces me to him
at a club and he goes, you know, hey, Terence,

(59:32):
this is Michael Browner. He's gonna be working on your record.
He goes, ah, so this is the guy who's gonna
sunk up my record. I looked and I went, no,
I'm not going to funk up your record because I'm
not doing it. He goes, I go, why should I
start now? If you think I'm gonna sunk up your record?

(59:53):
Why should I even bother? Right, Because I've been down
this road. I'm not gonna waste my time, so see you.
And he goes, oh, wait a minute, Wait a minute.
You know, Lincoln's like, no, really, Michael, Michael, you know,
I don't know, man, I'm not into this at all.
He goes, oh, I'm just kidding. I'm like, really, really,
are you kidding? You know? And he was just like, okay,

(01:00:19):
all right, you know. I said, all right, well we'll
think about it now. And that was, you know, and
then eventually I did it. But I was like, man,
if you're starting off on the wrong foot like that,
it's not about it down this road, you know. And
then you go, oh, I hope not. I hope I
don't screw up your record. No, I'm going to do
a good job, you know. And but the eighties, wasn't

(01:00:41):
everyone arrogant, wasn't everyone in now whole, And wasn't everyone
at Diva and wasn't no damn I didn't work started
getting polite now like I got back then. You had
to deal with cocaine on your soundboard, and well, yeah,
there was a lot of but they were usually too
burned out to you know, to be an asshole. So

(01:01:04):
you ended up doing the Heartline album, the introduced Tanistrant
Darby's but just one that ifould let me stay. That
was a voice I wanted to ask you about since
we're talking about the eighties, not to bring it up
with the coco stuff, but Angela Beaufield, who is a
voice that's not spoken about a lot. Do you I'm
guessing you were to record engine? What was the little
Did you track the entire two tough record? No? Just

(01:01:26):
the song? Yeah, okay? Mixed? Or or track just mixed?
Oh damn? Okay, because I wanted to ask That's what
I was asking. Saw the unsung but the music was remarkable. Yeah,
so can I ask a question? So? Um, So, back

(01:01:47):
back in the times that we're talking about, which I
guess is the eighties right now, Um, a lot of
the artists and presumably other people associated like maybe label
people would show up to the mix sets and have
input always and um, and can you talk about how
that's changed nowadays for somebody like yourself? Well, now I

(01:02:09):
have to plead I don't even bother anymore to have
the artists show up at the mix. They never show up.
It's now down to maybe it kind of went the
way of analog tape good speakers, because now we're judging

(01:02:30):
from our computers and our iPhones. You know, it's just
a different time. I mean, it's just the way it is.
Who was the last artist that was interested in their
mixed process? I cannot see them not do it. Bon Jovi,
he was there every day. I mean, to me, I'm

(01:02:52):
always amazed when they don't want to show up. It's
their album, but they they're scheduled to a point point
where they've got there on tour or their rehearsal, or
they've there, you know, they or they're not giving the
budget to fly over. So what you're saying Coldplay and
John Mayor and none of those guys, Oh yeah, sure

(01:03:14):
they were, But I'm just saying that that the majority. Yeah,
all the Coldplay records, you know, the guy's individual would
come in at first and then but it was always
down to Chris and myself on those records. Plus plus
a lot of these artists trust him where they don't
need to be there the entire time, and he can.
He sends them mixes and they prove them and so forth. Okay,

(01:03:35):
they're not total decades, they're just you're the man and too,
I think we know they just put their trust into
the visionary there. You have to learn that. I mean,
have you've been by the time a song comes out
to the audience as an artist, You've heard that song
a million times. So once it's done and you send
it to the mixing engineers, just like, look, take it away.
And at this point, as an artist, do you really
want to go back to your revisions? Because you are

(01:03:57):
who you are. That's got nothing to do who I
am is that I'm going to be a good listener.
They have, Yeah, but but it's my opinion. You know,
I'm interpreting it. It's and if it's nailing it exactly
the way they want and we're good. If it isn't,
then we do revisions until it's right. Okay, So I'm

(01:04:18):
gonna try to not rapid fire question, but just in general,
because again, you're discography is way too extensive to go
through everything. So what three songs of yours that you've
tracked and mixed mhm, just gives you absolute positive like

(01:04:40):
goose bumps, like and I mean filler hits whatever like um,
just like I captured magic and a bottle and well
these three represent me. I would say house is not
a home with Luther wait Sade, question was that was it?

(01:05:08):
Was it trek to a click track? Because I always
wanted to know how he nailed the stealing love of
stealing loves without doing it live with his band. No,
there was no, and it was done before the strings
came in. He do you hear when he's holding that
note and it's like a little dip. That's his heart rate,

(01:05:31):
that's his heart going. You hear that little drop. Yeah,
that was just him holding it. That was that was
a the take and he's just holding it and then
everybody's watching him, you know, that's watching and then downbeat

(01:05:52):
and then when when I think it was Leon that
did the strings, Um, they were just you know, they
practiced it a few times and then and so after
they tracked the music, he didn't come back like a
week later and said, I think I can now that
vocal take just a little bit better. None of those songs,

(01:06:13):
none of those vocals were Redone those were all from
the rhythm tracks, you know, from the Basics, because he
would also he would also he would do he would
do a tour of UM radio stations and have a

(01:06:35):
TV track of that stuff and actually sing live in
this studio of her like maybe four different versions of
a house is not a home, various places across the unit,
and he nails all those gaps and pauses like perfectly.
And I'm thinking, like you see, like, okay, thirteen seconds here. No,

(01:06:56):
it's just feel feeling what What we used to do
a lot too, is I was really into throwing a
delay on his voice, you know when he goes WHOA Well.
I would do that when we were recording, and so
he and I would just be playing back and forth

(01:07:16):
and he would never know when I throw, you know,
a delay on it. But eventually as he's recording, you know,
I'd throw a delay in and and he would answer
the delay. So I was always printing the delay, but
he would just he and I would go back and forth.
It was just this thing between him and I, you know,
so okay, something okay, it would do that. Yeah, yeah,

(01:07:41):
that was all during the recording of the Basics. I
was doing that. That's why there was that natural answer
back and forth. I mean, you know, and I was.
I was very much part of starting that and then
that became part of the trademark. You know, when he
was doing live then the mixing engineer was doing all
that stuff. But that was just fun between he and I.

(01:08:03):
I just tried to surprise him. What are the other two? Well, recording,
so you have a recording and a mixing. Yeah, I
mean mixing is I would say with mixing it would
be yellow. For cold playing, that was just there was
that really empty, lonely feel that turned out to really

(01:08:28):
I was able to get that just from the snare drum.
The snare drum just created this um and just feel.
It was. So did you mix and record parachutes? No? No,
I just mixed. But to record, it's the recording and
the mixing back then really the only one it would

(01:08:50):
be that it would be jumped to it a man
jump jump jump, and that was yogi drums um probably
using either you know, one of two snares, but um.
Really it was always either the well. Artie Smith was

(01:09:11):
his drum tech, the great Artie and you know he
would tune the drums and he had you know Yogi's
drum set, but quite often, depending on the song, I
had my two snares next to him next to Yogi
that he really liked, and depending on the song, we
switched it out between my eight hundred and the What

(01:09:33):
was that snare? That the percussion that weird? It's on
YouTube vs us in a Yamaha, but uh, his signature
snaring snare that he used on It's no, I don't
know what it is. I assumed it was a Yamha,
but it's not. No, it's some percussion company. Why can

(01:09:54):
I ask why so deep with the snare tones? Why
it sounded good? You know, they were just nice to
have it real fat and then tracked the song with

(01:10:16):
like a tight snare and you guys are like, it
doesn't work. I don't think it ever occurred to him.
I mean, he never brought it up. It was it
would be between you know, Yogi would be the one
that says, you know, tighten it up or loosen it up,
or I want this other snare. You know Yogi really
directed all of that. But you know, you get that

(01:10:37):
low sound and then you take the poll tech which
is a e Q, and then you push eight thousand
all the way up and then you get that great,
great edge, natural edge on the snare, so you'd still
have that crispy sound, but it was big and fat.

(01:10:59):
What song do you wish you could recall and just
do again that you're still not satisfied with? I don't
never never felt that way, really, Yea, there wasn't. I
was done. I was done. Most most first singles are
like the last song done, like I need one more
song than time pressure or whatever. Like it's not to

(01:11:21):
say that they couldn't have been better, but I just
never I just never thought that way. I was like,
we're done, let it go, move on. He doesn't want
to say, because somebody's gonna ask for their money back. Well,
I just I felt really good when I was done,
and I walk away and say okay next and if
it if it needed to be recalled and it was better,

(01:11:43):
I was like, wow, I didn't think of that. Who
else do you do you like that? Mix engineers? Do
you admire? I've got a lot of fans. I love
Manny It's a good buddy of mine. Yeah, America and
and Tony Maserati, Uh, Spike m. You know when Bob

(01:12:10):
Power's He used to be at at Sony and he
was in one room and I was in the other,
and I'd listen to his mixes like, oh my god,
that sounds so good. He would make me feel really like,
do I really want to go back and mix the
song I'm doing? You know? He was just had such
a great, great feel UM. Yeah. I mean, there's those

(01:12:38):
are the ones that clearly come to mind that I
just I just loved and I got to know many
through UH mixing John Mayer because we split up the
album and it was on the Continuum record and I'm
listening to this other guy's mixes and I'm like, wow, man,
this feels it's it sounds different, but it feels the

(01:12:59):
way I feel a song. I think I get to
know this guy. Who is he? I mean, I don't
pay a lot of attention to who's out there and
I'm just doing my work. But on it was really
stood out because it was one of the first times
where I'm sharing songs mixes with another person and they

(01:13:20):
fit so well together. It's great. So how do you
feel now the way that UM technology has has completely
changed from what it was thirty four years thirty or
fourty years ago when you first started. So now people

(01:13:41):
pretty much can do everything on their laptop. You know,
I'm fine with it as long as they call me
to mix it. They're mixing on their laptop. Two. Yeah,
well they can do everything on their laptop, and then
when it comes down to the mix, it's like it
could be better. How do you think feel about modern

(01:14:04):
engineering now as far as like mixes are concerned, Like,
are you like everything was better with analog? Like, you know,
still comes down to the pilot. You know, you're gonna
have great engineers and you're gonna have really terrible engineers.
And that's never changed. Even in analog days. You've got
really really crappy tracks that you'd have to work extra hard,

(01:14:27):
and then you get other guys who are just incredible
and you just put the tracks up and he's like,
mix is done. It's just fantastic, you know. And and
as far as analog desks, I mean, I'm moving away
from an analog desk pretty soon. How do you feel
about that? Oh, I can't. I've been mixing a lot
of music on the hybrid. I'm still surrounded by analog.

(01:14:51):
Everything is analog, right, Yeah, all my outboard gears analog.
So the only thing I'm kind of switching out it
is the fader and the sound of that particular desk.
But you've got great plug ins where you can get
the same sound. You know, if you're doing an SSL,

(01:15:11):
you can get the SSL sign. If you've got a
need get the NAVE sound. You just put that across
the channels and you, at least in my experience, you
can't tell the difference between what I've done on a
on the SSL nine thousand and in my in my
hybrid because it's sharing all the analog gear. Okay, so
I'm and you know, and it's easy. Now it's a

(01:15:33):
lot easier because you know, when you're on an analog desk,
you've got three and a half hours of stems of
you know, paths, excuse me, passage you've got to do.
In a hybrid situation, you hit a button, got a script,
it does it all automatically. So it's also way more efficient.
What was the transition like when um like moving I

(01:15:55):
guess I guess it's maybe like late nineties when the
game started transition in front analog to pro tools and
two computers. What was it like then? How did you
make that switch. It was it difficult, It was well.
I still treated when it went from analog to digital.
The first thing I noticed is that there was a

(01:16:16):
lack of tightness in the music now and I didn't
know why. I just thought, well, twenty four track analog
just must sound, you know, just sounds way better and
and digital doesn't. It turned out to be that it's
the clock, the clock that that ties all these tracks together.

(01:16:37):
I didn't know this at all because I'm not at
all technical, but it you know, it was years later
when I realized how important this clock is to getting
a sound. And again it's down to the engineer too.
If the engineers recording great to digital. But digital had
just a lot of artifacts that just didn't sound musical

(01:17:00):
at all, you know. They felt like there was a
ceiling to everything that I was doing. Um and of
course that's no longer the case, but yeah, it was
sonically it was rough, and I still you I didn't
know anything about pro tools. I would just use it
as if it was a playback, you know, I didn't
do anything. I had an assistant who well, I think

(01:17:22):
it's still like that to this day. But shout out
to Steve bhely, that's right, thank god. Um. But you know,
and then in the beginning you had plug ins. But
the plug ins they looked like my hardware, but they
didn't sound at all. So I had no reason to
use him because I had that gear. But eventually, you know,

(01:17:43):
Waves and U a D and soft Tube and you know,
all these great companies started, you know, getting so good
at emulating some of this gear that that you know,
one day I put a pull tech across something. I
was like, Wow, this sounds it's just just like mine.
And at that point use it. You know, for me,

(01:18:06):
I'm not I just want what sounds good. So are
you what's your opinion on soft too versus ways? You know? Anyway?
So uh so, um so the last ten years approximately,

(01:18:27):
you've you've been an electrical lady U in the STUDI
eight years, eight years scoring on nine I think, okay,
in the in Studio B, which is the legendary purple
room with the purple slat sounding. It was one of
the first first ssls in New York City and it's uh,
it got totally refurbished and it just has a great

(01:18:49):
punch to it, great sound and uh and and now
you're moving on to your building, your own place. Now.
I'm having place built for me, yes, which I'll be
moving to next year. Excited. I'm happy. Going to miss
it electrically, Oh of course I'm gonna miss electrically. I'm
gonna miss everybody there. I'm gonna miss Lee. You know,

(01:19:11):
I'm gonna miss the vibe. But you know it's I'm
excited by this isn't you know? It's another another phase? Wait?
Answer me this? Um have rats ever running in studio B?
Because just mice? Not my last day, No, no, And

(01:19:31):
I still say that was a rat, not not a mount.
I've never seen mice, and I've never seen ghosts. But
my sister he's been totally freaked out by by a ghost.
There's a there's a ghost that his name is Jimmy.
It's not Jimmy. It's some some guy. I don't everybody

(01:19:54):
describes him the same way, some guy with a beard
an electric electrically, because when we were there, Jimmy the
cat was Jimmy. Why was that ghost? Jimmy the cat
is no longer and he did not have a beard. Actually,
just very very overall. Yeah, maybe I don't know. I've
never seen him so, but you know, I'll look at

(01:20:17):
Steve or other assistance before him, who just had this
look on their face. They're not They're not kidding. You know.
Somebody just walked by and they thought it was me,
and I had already gone, oh, I believe it's it.
But the only the only thing that I've experiences is

(01:20:40):
um on one piece of gear. I've got two really
big knobs, is on a shadow hill and you'd have
to literally, yeah, you have to literally fall into it
sideways to turn the knob. And I had just left
the room and I came back in and I played

(01:21:01):
the mix and it's completely whacked. It's like all left heavy.
I what just happened? And I turned around and one
knob is just like you know, I've been moved almost
all the way to the top. And I looked at
my assister and I go, how did you bump into this?
He goes, I haven't even been near it. I was like,
I believe you, ten. I was like, okay, all right, well,

(01:21:26):
let me turn this knob back down. The cat do that?
Jumped on the jump on the console and I can't
turn on all The cat jumped on the console and
actually clicked the button and it sounded twice as good
as my mix. He jumped on the console and actually
walked on the board and clicked something and then walked away,

(01:21:48):
and we all looked at each other, like, holy sh it,
that I believe that Jimmi Hendrix is still trapped in
that studio somehow? Did you? I want to ask, did
you do the you record and mix Viva LaVita? The
co player just just mixed, just mix it most of
the record too. It wasn't I didn't do the whole record. Okay,

(01:22:08):
did you just Strawberry Swing? Yeah? I love that song,
but that was awesome, great job on that. I thought
you're about to ask Joe Santorini questions. Oh oh about
the lawsuit. I was in the Grammy audience the day
that they won a word for that, and him and

(01:22:32):
his lawyers were trying to chase them with the subpoena.
So I was like watching remember like those old Keystone
literally like the Cold playing their whole cat, their whole
management team like running down the island and Joe and
his lawyers are running the other way, and they're like
chasing each other, trying to serve papers all you mean

(01:22:53):
with with yeah. You know, look, I've known these guys
from the beginning. They were physically running that. That was
just a coincidence. I don't care what anybody say. I mean,
you know, if you look at the the prior record,
it was it Soundcraft, um where they copied you know,

(01:23:18):
they love this one little hook and they immediately called
them and said, hey, you know, we're gonna use We're
gonna use your you know that line and and here's
your credit. And I mean, this is it's just you know,
unfortunately it happens. There's millions and millions of songs coming out.

(01:23:40):
It's gonna happen, and you know, it's kind of like it.
But regardless, it was not a conscious effort because that's
that's not who they are. If if they're going to
copy something, they're gonna give that person credit and they're
gonna be very very humble about it and and write
about it. So it's my opinion on it. Well, we

(01:24:02):
know them for coming on the show today and school
and that's about about sound and Craft. Thank you Michael
for coming on, because thank you for the pleasure. Any
other last minute you guys, like, okay on the Parachutes album,
did you mix. You're a big yoh man man politics

(01:24:25):
that that whole first album like that was just okay,
did you mix the song parachutes? The one was just
him mix the whole record. But but one song, it
was Shiver? No, I mixed that. I think actually the
first two songs I mixed for them was Shiver and

(01:24:49):
Shiver in which one Yello yellow Man? Yeah, yeah, I
love that record you did. Did you do clocks as well? No?
You didn't mix slots? Okay? Yeah, that's the ship I
wish I had. Okay, but but I did the X

(01:25:11):
and Y record and then a good part of the DA.
You got to say to the listening audience, if you
want to get a real quick headache, go down Michael's
list of credits because it's too much. Fishbone questions, Fishbone, Alright,

(01:25:31):
what a great record that was, David? Yeah, okay, line
real quick? Uh the line between engineer and producer? Where
does that begin and end? And have you ever kind
of gone more into the producer? Yeah? I did production
for a couple of years. Got that out of my

(01:25:52):
system real quick. We won't talk about that. Who did
you produce? Nobody? You know? I was I went to
England and I did. I did some production. I did
this one band, uh Animal Nightlife, and then Icicle Works
and Roachford, Yeah yeah, I'd produce that his first album,

(01:26:17):
the second Holme first record first Okay, Roachford and we
can google, you know. But you know what I realized
quickly as a producer, and I was pretty sure of it,
and then I confirmed it is I'm not a songwriter.
I don't have a melody in my head that came

(01:26:39):
from my own head, right, And to be a great producer,
I think he really needs to be a songwriter. And
so I knew i'd I'd always be limited or restricted
to bands who are completely self sufficient, which isn't really realistic.
So um, after a couple of years, I like, the

(01:27:00):
best I'm gonna do is be average on this and
and then I really just loved mixing. It's like I
don't want to do anything else but that. Did you
make the Magic but co Play? Did you make that record?
You do that off the off good Stories? Uh No,

(01:27:21):
you didn't, exa did you do anything on that on
that record? Okay you didn't do that? Okay, okay, unpaid
Big Atlantic up here because he has a gazing please okay,
anything else that, Um, you worked on the Gwen Guthrie

(01:27:43):
Petlock record. Yes, that was. That's when I worked with
Sline Robbie and I did it a compass point. Did
you have anything that I did not know that? Did
you work with Larry Levan on the mixes at all?
Or no? I mixed that. I think it was with
Sline robb They came back. Yeah, Seventh Heaven. Oh my god,

(01:28:06):
I don't even know how I kind of that that
that one since stabs at the top of that's all. Yeah, yeah,
that's yeah. I mixed that in studio way media sound Jesus.
But I recorded that and it was, you know, it
was a trip being there because you know, you'd be

(01:28:27):
on the beach and then around twelve o'clock, one o'clock
everybody show up studio and start recording. And I was
gonna say it's it's I don't think like to be
in that comfort zone. I think that's bad luck. It
distracts everybody. It might be relaxing, but it might be

(01:28:48):
too relaxing. Well, I'd rather be uncomfortable and cold in
the studio and focused than like, Yeah, but the whole
vibe was laid back. There was a whole lot of
smoke going on. It was size of cigars and I'm
not not smoking, so you know, I get wait since

(01:29:08):
it's since its rapid fire, last minute questions the b
b Q ban on the beat, they just say like, look,
we want to sound like chic or like what's was
there any connection? Well, like the same guy from Change
was behind Hold on a second, Hold on a second.
How that record was done is we went to Italy

(01:29:29):
and we recorded sixteen songs. We recorded sixteen songs, the
rhythm tracks on all of them. Right then we came
back to New York and he split it into and
called one Change and the other one called b b
Q and then put lead vocals. You know, at that
point Luther didn't sing on that he was they Fred

(01:29:53):
Petri said, had done something dumb. Probably didn't, so, but
the basics are identical because recorded them all in one period.
He best love this song. He never recorded, well, he
would have except that that Peter didn't want to give
him a royalty, so he said, well, I'm not going
to sing on this record. So then we spent three

(01:30:15):
weeks trying to find a singer that sounded like Luther
it was just so you got everybody coming in there
trying to sing like Luther. I was like, oh my god.
But we ended up with Crabs Robinson who ended up
doing that. But and then on B b Q it
was you know, different singers and and different backing vocals,
and then maybe some of the overdubs since silver dubs

(01:30:38):
were done you know, by different people. But I just mixed,
you know, I came back to New York and I
mixed all sixteen. Did you do BBQ? Did you imagination? Uh?
Startle it like all those records. Imagination you mean hole
of notes? No? No, no, BBQ. I did one b
b Q. I was just the first one. Okay, okay,

(01:31:01):
we really got to wrap up guys. Yeah, becauld you
get Private Eyes? Right? Did you mix that? No? You
didn't mixed that. I mixed some of the singles. I
mixed one on one you can do. Those were remixes
and R and B radio. Oh so the album version

(01:31:25):
is different than the thing. Yeah, okay, I understand the
twelve inch fatter drum version of I can't go for that.
But I love just the tempty toy sound of the
album version. Yeah, I love it, but I get it now,
so you you were there to boost up the mix. Okay,
I see anything else Lady and Jim, Okay the co play.

(01:31:51):
You're fired. You said that like stay on the graffiti
we didn't like I've worked Okay, you did everything, Bill Baby,

(01:32:13):
Bill and Find take a Little and Yea and Sugar Steve.
This quest Love Signed enough, Michael's thank you very much
for coming and see all the nets go around Quest Supreme.
What's Love Supreme is a production of my Heart Radio.
This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora.

(01:32:37):
For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
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