QLS Classic: Patrice Rushen

Composer, producer, and music director, Patrice Rushen joins Team Supreme to discuss her life as one of the music industry’s most versatile artists.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of course, Love Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio.
This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is Quels classic. My name is
Quess Love. And we go back into the archives November
two thousand eighteen, and we interview the legendary exquisite Patrese Russian.

(00:21):
We hope you enjoy Suprema Suprema role called Suprema Suprema
role called subprima Suprema role called Suprema saprima role called

(00:46):
president production genius. Their piano flowers singer. Yeah, it's Patres Russian. Yeah,
he k baby fingers Suprema roll call, Suprema Subprema roll
My name is Fante. Yeah, and I got to yawn, yeah,
because I've been up, oh man since before the dawn?

(01:12):
Um roll? How is my listen? Wrimam road calls in
the house. Yeah, like the Eagles best of Yeah, I'm
not the host of this show. Yeah, settle for quest
love Prima Suprema roll call, repeating Prima Suprema roll call. Yeah,

(01:36):
I forget it not Yeah, Patres Russian. Yeah, a black
girl who walks BA call su Prima sub prima roll
call su Prima sub Primo roll call, Sugar. Yeah, I
brought this album in. Yeah, because it's called Before the
Dawn Supremo Roma Fremo roll Call. This is Patrese. Yeah,

(02:08):
I got no rhyme. Yeah, but I am here. Yeah,
I'm gonna have a good time. Fremo roll call, So
Prema so Fremo roll call, So Frema Fremo roll call. See,

(02:40):
I didn't know. I didn't know you had already. You're
supposed to talk about her later stuff. I'm talking about
the jash Ship. Wait listen, let's just re capt our audiences.
We're gonna recompetilate for our audience now. About usually about
three minutes before every taping, I I just give a courtey,

(03:01):
a courtesy check to all the members of the team
Supreme to see if they're ready to do their verses.
And of course the guest has always startled like I'm
you know, it's three minutes of putting out fires. And
today Steve, Steve you Bill took my turn. What happened

(03:22):
was that Steve was not because on the right, and
we already discussed we wouldn't say forget me, nas wouldn't
say sound for you. Love and you know, yeah, it
was because I was like I thought, I was like, okay,
remind me. I'm like, okay, somebody's gonna remind me. I
was going to do all remind me, reminded, and then
it was okay, feel so real. I'm like, all right,
maybe that one but before the dawn. So yeah, but

(03:46):
had the nerve to like I can't think of an
I roll? Yeah, like, how dare you ask me? Am?
I prepared? I am the I am the Steve take
a lot of pride in his role. I had the
same thing too, I had gone thing damn all right,

(04:14):
no hard feelings, prick feelings. Wait, gentlemen, welcome, this is
what our day is going to be like the Supreme. Yes,
welcome to another episode of course of Supreme. Question love
your host? Uh, I don't know. I'm also in like
twenty minutes or hours of sleep. Yeah. We have Team

(04:37):
Supreme with us, we have Facolo everything. How's it going?
Everything's good man, Happy to be here, I've been This
is one interview I've been wanting to do since we started.
Quesse of Supreme. Yes, like she's been on my wish
list from day one. Yeah, so this is a dream
come true. It happen. Yes, come on, I'm doing good
in Capital Rush. That's right. We're in the home of

(05:00):
uh this this NATS NATS room. Yeah yeah, so yeah,
we're in the Capitol Building. This is my first time here.
We also have uh, I've been here more than you. Well,
you work for Universal, So I never went here when
I when I worked here or I worked for Universal.
So what did you do here? I had a friend

(05:22):
that worked here, and I just came to visit friends
all my friends I did, and we have a sugar
Steed with us. Any other factories about the building. I'm
certain that you were here now hours before we were.
I was. But I was here twenty five years ago
trying to sneak in the front door and made it

(05:43):
as far as the lobby. It's got the excuse me,
please leave kind of thing. Came back? Now? Is that
beautiful story? And now you in here? So you you
got ejected, You got Jazzy Jeff out there. Yeah, this
was before I was even engineering. I was just here
like trying to check out the building and stuff. Okay, yeah,

(06:06):
that's cool, ladies and gentlemen, our guest today. Um, I
can say that you know We often throw, uh throw
the word musical genius or musical innovator around a lot,
but I will say that our guest today is is
pretty much UM lives up to that title UM as

(06:27):
a musician, as a singer, composer, arranger, UM and soul
training dancer. Yeah. Question, and I'd like to know if
the sounds that you're right do they relate to any
of your past experiences or do you just write sperato?
You got to interview Build Withers. That's amazing. Ladies, wait

(06:50):
before we get please walcome to the quest of Supreme
Patrice Russian. Thank you, thank you. How are you today?
I'm great? Thank you, Sorry for the crazy energy we
just she was happy to get out today. A good
all good? So how are you every Everything's fine, Everything's
been beautiful, you know, doing a lot of different things.

(07:12):
UM school just started, you know, the the chair of
the popular music program at the University of Southern California.
So we're back. Dr Russian, I am that too. That
one that's from the Berkeley College of Music. Okay, yeah,
from doctor years ago? Yes, okay, tradition, Where were you born?

(07:41):
I was born in Los Angeles, California, right, here in
l a yep, in the heart of Partner from the
People's Republic of Watts. I'm from south central Okay. So
your childhood, uh I want to know how music entered it,
But what was your childhood into? Music was just part

(08:04):
of the air. You know, the radio was always on.
My parents watched television. I was never without TV. So
your parents weren't sings, not at all, not at all,
not at all. In fact, really music lovers. They belonged to,
ah they used to have a record club that they

(08:26):
would send you a record a month. So my parents
belonged to this record club and they would send these records.
And so there was always music in our house just
because they just loved music. I mean like Columbia House,
Columbia exactly, exactly. And so music of all types, classical music, jazz,
gospel music, anything you didn't know what you were going

(08:48):
to get. And uh so on Saturdays when we would
be cleaning up the house, they would put a stack
of records on. Because you know that you guys are
a little young to remember you never have even been here.
It sounds on the turn tables. You know, you have
a spindle and you stack your records and they would

(09:08):
drop down the whole stack up records, and we were
supposed to have that house clean by the time you
got the last one, so sometimes you just had to
keep going tell that last record. So I heard a
lot of different kinds of music. And then growing up
in l A, you know, we had the Latino population

(09:31):
and so there was a lot of the influence of
that music. Of course, the music of the church, Black church. Um,
I learned to play the piano visa classical music because
that was how you learned back then, the study study
of the tradition of that instrument. Then when did you
start playing? Started playing when I was about five and
I was in this experimental of course, I went to

(09:54):
the six years difference between my younger sister and I.
So my parents put me in a nurse school program
while they worked when when I was a kid, and
the teacher there was really musical and she's the one
that really noticed that during the day, when we would
do any musical or movement to music activity, that's when

(10:15):
I would, you know, really shine. Yeah, So they said,
all of us beautiful, So what do we do? And
she knew about this program that was designed four young kids.
That was actually happening at USC. It was a graduate
course for music education majors. It was called Rhythmics, and
they were designing programs for uh little kids who just

(10:41):
seemed to be gifted in music. They were developing studies
that this is pre you know, early childhood development stuff
that we just say for granted now because that's just
a part of the way we rolled now, But back
then that was still new here. So I was a
part of this class and I went through this program,
started playing that was when I was three, started playing

(11:02):
when I was five because they said, you want to
play an instrument now, right, So I did that piano
was chosen for me and stayed in that program right
up and through through high school. And so there are
a few of us that I met a few people
rolling through there. I met pianist Billy Childs roll through there. Uh.

(11:22):
There was a some some amazing people that have since
you know, used their background there to start doing film scoring.
A guy named Nathan Wang. There's there's plenty of people
that I saw go through there. The conductor of the
UH San Francisco UH Symphony, Michael Tilson Thomas. He used

(11:44):
to be coming out of his piano lesson as I
was going into mind. And so these were people that
I just kind of ran into. I didn't know then,
but then seeing them years later. Um, that idea of
that spark as a kid is a big deal, and
we take it for granted. But that's why I'm such
a big proponent of exposing kids to music, not just

(12:09):
just have it going so they can't hear it. We
recently had Bobby McFerrin on the show, and he said
some similar things because he started out kind of parallel
with you, like six years old and the music program
and just and then the composer and the conductor thing
and his his his dad was an amazing operaction we learned. Yeah,
so that exposure is like kind of critical and one

(12:32):
of the things that um, I hope we will um
find a way to kind of uh put back into
our just daily lives is you know, we used to
see music on TV. We watched people dance to music
just as a matter of course, like this is what
music does to just the average person. Uh So you

(12:55):
saw people moving to music. You heard music on television
all the time with shows with live band I mean,
coming up out here, it was like wow, when you
would see an orchestra on TV or playing the Grammy
Awards or playing one of those big shows, it's like,
m I want to do that. You wake up? Yeah,

(13:15):
and you know I was always looking at stuff. And
then the theme songs of shows, you know, of just
sitcoms or of series. That was a big deal because
you know, you could you could recognize what was about
to come on. You be in the kitchen, here's something
and be like, oh, song songs on or you know,

(13:36):
sometimes it would be the theme right in my head,
give me a break. And those are not Those are
not easy to do when you figured that, Wow, the
composer is going to put together something that's gonna have
so memorable in a very short period of time. That's
gonna set the tone for a television show. And people

(13:57):
are that's really falling off though if you really think
about it, right, like what themes so throws today? Do
you really know besides doom doom, strange things? They don't
exist anymore because there's something at time the time that
was supposed to be for themes. It's so I got
to do. I got to do a couple of them,
which I was really happy about. I did the Steve
Harvey Show. In fact, we recorded it here. I did

(14:24):
most of the television stuff that I did here, some
other ones, but remop well we did. I did the
Image the Image Awards for about thirteen years straight. Oh man,
and you're always uh in the booth, in the in
the pit. Yes, how was music director of the show.
I'd be conducting, didn't have to play at the same time,

(14:45):
such great fun, worked with so many um amazing artists,
and working in the medium of television actually was what
I wanted to do that. That's what I want to be.
That was your initial point. That was my initial plan.
I wanted. I watched so much to be I wanted
to be in there. I wanted to do that so
just I love the music, so I said, I wanted to,

(15:08):
but I didn't know the past, you know, to get there.
So later, um, you know, I knew I needed to
stay in Los Angeles. But as I kind of went
through public school system and stuff like that, I went
to a high school, uh Ela and Lee Roy at
Lock High School, and it was there really where I

(15:28):
figured out what I kind of wanted to do and
how I was going to use I had had music
in my life, my whole life. But I didn't know
what I was gonna do with it because I see
many people look like me doing it. So okay, since
you you have an actual education in music maybe and
you're from uh the West Coast. Is kind of a
two part question. One in in California, was there a

(15:53):
specific kind of fall off or waning period of where
they started to take the music education Asian out the schools,
because I know that in the sixties especially, and uh
in the seventies. Uh well, I mean I went to
performing arts school. But even then, like when in the
seventies when I was in elementary school, there was like
trumpet lessons and that sort of thing, and then like

(16:16):
come the eighties and it just totally you know, it's
just sports and that's it. Was there a period in
which that that fell off in Los Angeles where yeah,
it seems like it seems like it started in the
middle seventies and by the time we got to the eighties,
it was almost gone. There are special programs and things

(16:37):
like that, but in terms of music just being in
the schools because it's supposed to be something that people
do have around a well rounded education, that that did
start to go away, and I think that um, I
probably got out of the l a uh City school
since we graduated from that. Just at the big getting

(17:00):
of when you could see the the funds and the
uh the idea of doing that kind of going away,
they started trying to rather than have separate school programs,
they did try to put some community type programs together
where you had several schools, which is a good idea,
had several schools that would do stuff. But in terms

(17:20):
of I was, I was at probably the one of
the schools, one of the few that had a very
very strong music program. Out of that program came a
lot of musicians. Uh. They were there at the school
the same time. Gerald Albright Sex from player in the
late in Duty Chances, he was there. We were there
at the same time. This elementary or high school. This

(17:43):
is high school. This is high school. He didn't even
give recorders out of high school anymore, remember like everybody. Yeah,
So we were in bands and orchestra and jazz band
and things like that, and our teachers were pretty innovative
at that time. They had the that to keep the
kids who are in the community focused on that as

(18:07):
opposed to outside influence. If you're gonna be in a gang,
and you need to be in the marching band, that's
the biggest gang. So we had music as a as
sort of the platform and the jumping off point to
study history, to study social graces, to learn about things

(18:28):
outside of our neighborhood, outside of ourselves, and those of
us who did opt to be professionals had sort of
a point of view on the different kinds and different
styles of being a professional musician. There were those who
went on the road that played, but there were also
those nameless faces that played, uh in the studios. And

(18:52):
there were people who wrote things, and there were people
who arrange things, and people who actually literally copied music
before the software that we that we now use as
as music publishing software. Uh So there were all these
different lifestyles and of being a musician that we were
exposed to being in Los Angeles, and a lot of
us wanted that skill set that would allow us to

(19:15):
do any of it, all of it. When you said
that you were when you were young, you said you
played like classical. What was some of the pieces you
would play? What was some of your favorite stuff to play? Oh? Well,
you know, I had to learn the classical repertoire left
Bach a lot of box in. My hands are small,
so my teacher really worked a long time to develop
a certain kind of strength so that the fact that

(19:35):
my hands were small wasn't gonna be any pitfall when
I got the larger work. So I played bagging a
lot of Mozart and a lot of hiding. Then I
played uh, Beethoven, my man, and then you know, bigger
pieces and stuff. But but the piano for me spoke

(19:58):
to me in a certain way. But it was the
It was the playing with other people because piano, I
was playing a lot, a lot alone until I got
to high school and was playing in different ensembles. And
I learned to play the flute because I wanted to
a case and you can't get the kids had a case.

(20:21):
I know exactly how she feels because I was just
drummer in school and like I wasn't looking my biggest
snare drumming. It's all over, So yeah, I know exactly.
I learned to play the flute, and that that experience
of being inside of an orchestra flutes in the in
the middle or in a band where it flutes it
on the side that is what gave me a perspective
with like I want to write. I want to write

(20:43):
for these kinds of ensembles. I love this. I want
to jump on your question. I'm glad you asked this
because okay, as a as a person that samples, were
you leading to you remind me what? No, no, no, no, no,
I want well, okay, I all I want to ask
what you're uh your your practice regiment was at least

(21:06):
hour wise? Because um yeah, I was gonna say, I
you do at the top of you remind me you
don't have to quantize it like, well, we didn't. We
didn't have any sequences. I know that. But the timing,
like as a person that knows like this particular artist

(21:28):
fluctuates and you might have to time stretch it or whatever.
You don't I know for a fact that you don't
have to do that on yours, and which tells me
that you're right hand is strong as hell. As far
as your what was your your as far as your
your your practice regiment, how many hours a day would
you Well, when I had time to practice, I didn't

(21:51):
take as much advantage of as I probably should have.
But there was a particular there's there's always you're going
to have certain technical actors sizes. This is my belief
was I was taught this way turtle technical exercises as
war as as warm ups that you have to do
just because you know you're developing a certain kind of
strength and everything, and you also got to be under control.

(22:13):
Then you work on the pieces that you're learning or
the song that you're trying to learn to play. And
um my teachers always emphasized if you want to learn
to play fast, play slow mm hmm. Get your accuracy
up exact exactly because you're trying its muscle memory as well,
which is hard to do when all you want to do,

(22:36):
but that's really that was really an important part of
developing a good technique is to play slowly. What was
it about Beethoven? Because I mean I hear classical music
and to me it just all sounds like classical music.
What in particularly was it about Beethoven's pieces as a composer, Like,
what did you like about his stuff? What set some
apart from everybody else? I think after playing so much

(22:57):
Bach with a lot a lot of single line harmonies
that are implied to be able to really play chords
was like, whoa, my man had some chords. And then
later you know, getting into revel and debut saying more
of the colors and things like that. Remember that quala

(23:19):
of this was happening at home. I'm hearing Duke Ellington
and Miles Davis and Ella Fitzgerald and Saravan and Perry
Como and Frank Sinatra. I'm hearing all this stuff on
these records that are dropping every Saturday. And so now
I'm starting to identify a relationship between the music that

(23:39):
I'm actually playing for my lessons, because that's what that represents,
and then the stuff that I'm hearing at church, and
then the stuff that I'm hearing on the radio and
see I'm a motown baby, and then the stuff that
my parents bought. I'm starting to hear this relationship. So
you didn't look down to pop music like most serious musicians.

(24:00):
Was like pop music not at all, because for me, Um,
the music had a mood and a purpose and it
was motown at the time, right like when you say pop,
we're talking about at that time it was both. It
was motown and and then on the other Yet Beach
Boys and then Yet the Beatles, you had a lot
of things that were kind of converging it at the

(24:21):
same time. It's lidestone and all this stuff. You had
a lot of things converging at the same time. And No,
it was like it was music that you liked, the
music that you didn't like. It moved you or didn't
move you. You know, it didn't really matter in terms
of the category for me, you know, which is why
I can read it, read it, you know, Brahms and
James Brown, James Broms. So okay, because I know I

(24:49):
know the way that most U Northeast, Well you went
to Berkeley, see you already know what's something, how snobby
the East Coast is, the far as jazz musicianship is concerned,
the seriousness and kind of how they looked down on
the l A jazz scene. Were you at all aware

(25:12):
of the of the difference difference there was? There was
a perception for some reason, I never really got that
because all you had to do was come here. Look now.
Did you have to look a little harder because it
wasn't staring you in the face at every corner? Yeah,
but no, there was there was always, at least when
I was coming up there was always a scene here,

(25:34):
and musicians came here. There were a lot, there were clubs,
and this was part of a circuit. And we did
I guess you know, you can only do this at
a all black eye school. We went on field trips
that innovative, what did that permission? Slip? Look right? And

(25:55):
he would pick us up. But then we would sit
in the back have our fruit punch. So see, I
still I heard all of this music that was supposed
to be um uh indicative of what the East Coast
vibe was like. Because if you're coming out here playing
a two and it was like I said, and there
was a scene here. If I was going to qualify anything,

(26:17):
I would say that there was a different awareness here,
not necessarily better or worse, but different because you saw
all kinds of different musicians. So it wasn't only the
person playing at the club. You had to have mad
respect for the person who was playing at the student
in the studios too, because you know what they did

(26:38):
on their brakes, They read the stock market and tried
to decide where they were gonna take their yacht this
next next vacation. Because they were worked every day just
as hard. They had to have mad skills and could
go home at night and rest with their family and
then the beautiful. So we saw these different styles of

(27:02):
being a musician. I'm not saying one was better than
the other, but a hunger deeper a little bit on
the other side, and in that way, I don't know,
because it's like if you're aspiring to be the best
of what you do, or have the the idea of
being able to be uh so versatile, that you can
be a contributor on so many fronts, So we would,

(27:24):
you know, I could come and sit down and watch
Quincy Jones in a in a studio and all the
musicians that were there playing that music for those television shows.
And then I could go to the jazz club, you know,
and here Farrell Sanders or Orbie Hancock or somebody like that.

(27:45):
And then I could talk to a George Duke, or
I could talk to uh Gerald Wilson about his big
band writing. I never left Los Angeles to do any
of that. It was all available to me, and all
of these different takes on this idea of music as
a lifestyle allowed for me to be able to find

(28:09):
many ways to achieve my goal, which was I didn't
want to do anything else. I just wanted to have
a career where I could do music. As a quick question,
like what was George do like? Because he's the person
that I mean godress and so like we I would
have loved to get him on the show, but like
what was what was he like just as a musician,
as a person, what was it like working with him?
Georgia's like just kind of like you would see him

(28:32):
like super Joviel, He's really one of the musicians. Because
I had a little more access to him, who kind
of without saying it, embodied what it was that I
thought I wanted to do because he could do anything.
He could He could write orchestro music. He was a

(28:52):
great producer Haut and the stuff. And I heard it
Team Billions. Yeah, no, I saw it, so no I
knew what it took, you know, to to do that
kind of thing. And George was doing it all and

(29:13):
always uh I was with a smile. And when he
would produce a lot of times he would call me
to play. Were there were there notable not where they
are notable shows, but was there a notable concert performance
that you saw as a youngster that it was finally
your moment of eureka, like, Okay, this is this is

(29:36):
what I want to do professionally for the rest of
my life. Like what was what was a mind changing
or life altering? There were a few, um, you know,
like I said, I really liked orchestral music a lot.
So when I would watch back in the day, there
was a Grammy orchestra that was on TV playing for

(29:56):
everybody like wow, And when I saw Quincy Jones conduct
that orchestra, okay, and then I paid more attention to
the other live orchestras on TV. Who's who Who's conducting
the Emmys, Well, Who's well, who's who's conducting the Tony's Well,

(30:16):
who's conducting the Oscars? I wanted to know what that
process was because that's that's because everyone would be like
Stevie Wonder and You're like, that's three different checks. Well
the idea. The idea was that you know, I loved

(30:38):
commercial music. I'll just put it under that big umbrella
and that encompasses everything. I love jazz, I love popping
to music. I'll see I see all of these things
as branches of the same tree. But music director and conducting,
can you break that down? Because what that's about. Yeah.
Like the difference is because most people because I look
at you, what I'm thinking of? Okay, well Adam, but no,
he doesn't conduct, he's just the music direct not just

(31:00):
but it well the music. You know, the definition has
kind of morphed into some other things, but the idea
of it, the concept of music direction, is that that's
the individual that is in those of shows who is
responsible for the music happening. Now, it can take on
different forms. Sometimes you're the one who actually would pick

(31:25):
the musicians. Sometimes you're the one who has to pick
the musicians and also be the catalyst for what the
sound of the music is going to be as far
as the writing is concerned, what people are gonna play. Um,
you're usually the translator from what the producers in the
show and the directors what they want to do and

(31:46):
then what has that happens happen musically anyway, and uh,
you know, you're the person who really speaks with the
musicians and the other designated cast of music people to
get it done, whether that's the arrangers, the pre going
into a studio to pre record something for the show.

(32:07):
I want to make those You make all the meetings,
how hard is it to elbow room, uh yourself into
that situation. Okay, I'll put it out there like right now,
Ricky Mannus cover problem. No, I'm just saying that he's

(32:28):
he's the guy. He ain't buzzing, you know what I mean,
And I wouldn't even Yeah, so's you'll have to take
me out. Has I mean your mind, Rickey Minor is
where like he has things Rickey Minor has let's Rickey minus. Basically,
I mean he's the musical go to director at the moment.

(32:50):
What I realized now isn't necessarily and there's no shade,
no dig whatever. I realized that, Um, a lot of
positions in Hollywood are based on how you nuance your
relationships with the people in power, and so a lot
of the times is just you know, I think you know,

(33:12):
to to her or to anyone in this room speaking now,
it's like, oh, man, to get a project like that
would be amazing. But I think to a higher up
at at a movie company or whatever I mean, musical director,
it could sort of be like a band aid or
something like an afterthought. And usually with afterthought situations, well,
you're thinking about your actress, your actor, your director, and

(33:34):
all that, your producer and all that stuff. Nine times
out of tend you just go with your instinctual Okay,
who who Who's who delivers? And usually who delivers mainly
like who shows up on time? Who's not trouble who
can yeah? Who? Yeah? Yeah? Exactly? Who can deliver consistent work?
You know what I mean? Because I mean we can

(33:55):
all attest that some of our favorite geniuses can be troublesome.
So it's like, who's consistent? And you know a lot
of times I'll hear of a project happening in the
wings and I'm like, I can get it, and damn
Ricky got it? Again? What kind of project Ricky had

(34:16):
the monopoly on? You feel like, uh, Ricky's definitely gonna
go to for like, uh, the Grammys, definitely the Emmy's. Uh.
I mean he at the time when American Idol was hitting,
he was that. I think I think Ricky is the
reason that because Ricky shout to Sis Smith, who sings

(34:37):
to me important to change. She her and Ricky have
like worked together forever, and I think it was Ricky
that put me in contact with Patrice. Now Here's the thing, though,
sometimes and sometimes the trickle down theory works good because
sometimes he has something and looked done the war shows

(34:58):
music direct then if the call so usually anything you've
seen me do that's notable either, Commons Ricky Ricky Baston. Well,
here's the thing, anything that Adam Blackstone has done. So
now Adam is in the foes just because I had
to say no to everything. So Jay z Eminem, Rihanna

(35:20):
Mary Janet like right now that it's the trickle down thing,
and so no, he's definitely really messing with me. I'm like, damn,
I'm never getting that's the way Adam comminated. I think
you need to go back even further ahead because he
will tell you and so will rate you tee you

(35:46):
that somebody had to open the door for them. Who
was it? Well, that might be me. I was thinking that,
how that might be me you talked to, because I'm
sure that you know you guys will have your opportunity
to speak to them. Should ask them about that, because
see I'm on the other end of the phone hearing

(36:08):
them ask me stuff. So let me do it like this.
Let me say like this, you asked you, you started
your the start of your question. How is it it's
it's very that's not an area that was open and
understood that much in terms of what people did as

(36:29):
music directors or what that was about. I I pieced
it together watching it because I was kind of fascinated
at that. But it is one of those things where,
at least in my feeling, where your work has to
speak so loudly in terms of what you can do
that when there is an opportunity that that you can't, uh,

(36:55):
something will happen. I just, I just I just have
this feeling that when you're an artist and you will
remain true to your your work and remaining true to
your goal and true to your why I call it,
it's gonna be okay. You don't know what how it's
gonna come, but it's gonna be okay. You just be
ready when the opportunity arises. That's what I think. So

(37:19):
the idea of music direction fell in my lap, but
it fell in it this way where Uh, Robert Townsend's
doing what it's gonna do Hollywood self. He was looking
for a composer. Now, this was his first film and
he didn't even know what he was supposed to be doing,
so he just went around to the different agents who

(37:41):
represented composers and goes down this list of gets to
an agent that I had happened to just have signed with,
gets to my name and it's in pencil. I mean,
I'm that new and I'm the only name he recognized
because of the records to remind me that, and he

(38:02):
was a fan, so he said, oh, Caba Trees, and
of course they are. The agents are horrified because it's
like she hasn't done anything. You don't know her. But
I no, no, no, I do know, I know, I know,
I know her music. And so that's how that happened.
So I did Hollywood Shuffle and he got five HBO

(38:24):
comedy specials and he called me to do the Partners
in Crime. This is where those relationships and the building
of those relationships happened. So I did five of those
Partners in Crime. Then the guy who had been the
producer of the N Double A C Image A Horse.

(38:47):
I knew that the music director who was for those awards,
who was H. B. Barnum, who was a Wreatha's music director,
was going to kind of pull back on due in
the Image Awards, And it was suggested between Hamilton Cloud,
who was the producer and HB we look for somebody

(39:08):
else to take on the Image Awards. They were going
to try to make them really bigger and special and
da da da dad. So I just on these five
things and they called me to ask me if I
were do him. So I said yes, So I did
the Image Awards. Now, after doing the HBO specials and
seen in the scene in the capacity of the of

(39:31):
being director and then doing those years of the Image Awards,
one of the directors of those shows was about to
do the Emmys. We're talking a span of ten years though,
and they had and had a falling out with the
music director and and I guess during the following I
was said, well, you know, hey, I'll get somebody else

(39:54):
up in here to do it. And they called me.
It was last minute and thing. But I had worked
with him before on him one of those other comedy specials,
and so you talk about the elbow room. For me,
it wasn't about that as much as it was that
circumstances brought in certain opportunities and I was determined to
crush it. How does one like, do you have to Okay?

(40:22):
Now I feel so Jankie like my level of my
level of musical director. He's just like, all right, you know,
it's five seconds and then whatever. But I'm certain that
you had to notate all the we didn't have the
you know that that that software and stuff that we
use now all the time, we didn't have that. So no,

(40:43):
you were writing by hand, you were preparing the music
by hand. Um, you know I would sometimes, especially a
big show like Image Awards or Emmy's. So you mentioned
all the ones that I didn't. You say, Redy have
the thing the thing locked up now, but he didn't
at first. So does that mean question off, you didn't
do your research to find out that brit was to

(41:04):
put everybody for most people don't know that because they
didn't start looking. Now. This is the other part about
what you're saying about Ricky. This is one of the
things that I actually admire about him most. He figures
out how he's gonna get let you know, he has
figured out a way to be able to kind of

(41:25):
uh quantify all of the activities that go along with
that and and and get it done and be able
to say yes to a lot of things that are
high profile. And he's a very personable individual and he
will go out of his way to make sure you
know what was happening. At that time, I was about

(41:47):
to I just wanted to get the word done because
I was having to do so much of it myself.
I did a lot of shows for b ET, I
did a lot of the I did the Grammys the
last a few years that they used live orchestra to
record anything. You know, I probably did some of the
last ones that they did that in this room that's
right or somewhere right. And when you were aware that

(42:10):
you were a draw still, like even though you might
have been quiet monks, when we would see your name
and the credits, like people were fan of the record
and be like, oh, I remember seeing her name in
the Hollywood. I mean, I was aware of it. Only
I was aware of it. But but but I think,
like I said, I've had some happy circumstances to just

(42:31):
happen on the way too while I was trying to
go where I was trying to go, and everything seemed
to help. The other thing, the fact that that that
I had an audience and and a and a and
a following, particularly among the African American community, gave me
the courage to be able to almost walk away from
the recording side to focus as the opening, which was

(42:56):
a little slipper opening, happened for me to be able
to really do the music direction thing because I could
bring other musicians of color who never would get those
calls to it. As the sensibility musically began to change.
Now you relate to list as the sensibilities in terms
of what audiences wanted to hear and the relationship between

(43:20):
the shows that they watched and the music that a
company that began to change and have more of the
sensibilities of people of color and of different and certainly
you can call me in I can't and I and
you know, but there's some music directors who you know,

(43:43):
they can't do that. So when I was was able
to speak all the different languages or at least go
there and call in you know people, then we could
get a whole bunch of work done. Okay, I have
a great question for you. Now we totally skipped or

(44:03):
we're gonna back to listen, but now that you went there. Okay,
So this computer on my lap never leaves my side,
and usually when I'm in situations like that, there's always
an audible to be called, and usually director in my
air is like, uh, mirror, we need to queue up,

(44:24):
uh Julio and is to all the girls I love
before and I know I got nineties seconds, like the
way that the roots have mastered hearing it and knowing
exactly what. But without the technology of you playing for
all thirty of your musicians and your orchestra that you're

(44:45):
about to call an audible or something, not knowing they
have the the ability to improvise them, how would that happen?
Would would there ever be situations like that where you
get the last minute? Yeah, but things were changed, changing
even the way the directors directed changed when they had
access to being able to not plan and to say

(45:10):
stuff at the last minute and watch people scramble and
watch it happen. Uh you know, then they took advantage
of that. So now be the audible becomes just another
thing that we have to that you have to have
in your tool, just another thing that you have to do.
Back in the day, those shows were planned to the
tenth of a second in terms of what was going

(45:32):
to happen, and you had to have a plan so
that you will be ready for something that might happen
uh spontaneously. Now The difference was everybody had a plan
and everybody knew what was there they were supposed to do,
and you had to be ready to deliver. But if
it did take that little slight left, could the music

(45:52):
director and the people that were there respond and how
are you going to respond right now? So that balance
an act did start to happen as a technology allowed
for more of it to shift into last minute let's
just go by the seat of our pants. Now it's
like this. Now you've got people who are coming on

(46:15):
who are playing in um television, orchestras and stuff like that.
They might read music, they might not, they might understand
what they understand concept because somebody's gonna say, oh, give
me something that sounds like uh Coldplay meets uh Bruno
Mars right now, and everybody will go, yeah, okay, so

(46:35):
you're you're your oral vocabulary. And the musicians that are
on TV now seem to have a very wide palette
in terms of a certain amount of oral vocabulary that
they can call into at least get you through it
for the thirty or nineties seconds. But when you had
more people, a fifty piece orchestra or something like that,
you can't depend on. Everybody had they might I've never

(47:00):
heard so wet a lot we had. We had to
write a lot, and the and the arrangers and music
directors who had the vocabulary had to be able to translate. Okay,
you're supposed to be playing for Gladys Night and then
you're gonna play for print. M you need to translate

(47:21):
what it is so that it's seamless. So okay, uh,
gun to your head. If because I know or assume
that you're well versed in site reading on the spot

(47:45):
and the ability to improvise. Most musicians I know can't
chew gum and walk at the same time. Usually like
I can't read. I mean I can read, but you know,
no one's gonna have time for me to be like,
give me fifteen minutes, one knee on the two and
all that stuff. So if you go into your head,

(48:10):
come on, if you have to lose one of the
two abilities, m h, what would you would you rather
keep your natural feel or the technical keep the technical reading? Okay,
you put in my face and I'll play it for
two Well, and that is a loaded, loaded question. Are

(48:37):
people even to I have to I have to kind
of two answers to that. First of all, there was
a time when you would have to maybe choose. In
two thousand eighteen, you don't have to choose. It's about
It's about do you want the insurance that you'll be

(49:00):
able to do music for your career until you can't
do it anymore? And you when you want to do
something real bad, I think that it behooves you to
find every way possible to be able to ensure that
you would never have to do anything else. Now you
don't have to necessarily get all you can't get all

(49:23):
the skills together at one time. Nobody's asking you to
do that. But I think that sometimes people fall on
and default to what's the easiest for them to do,
and they stay there, and that's okay. But I would
wonder what would happen if they would allow what they

(49:43):
do really well to get them in a position to
be able to then, as they're doing what they do
really well, be able to use part of that income
and part of that movement and part of that desire
to continue to do it, then also over here be
working on that thing that they don't do as well. See,
we get caught in this thing of like if I
don't do this, somebody thinks less of me. You know,

(50:08):
you're good at what you're good at, and it's and
if you've got talent and and you've and you've worked
on that, I think that you should go with it.
But it also behoods you that if you want to
stay with it and contribute that there may be other
ways if you would learn certain things that would allow
for you to be able to keep keep it moving.
More tools in your tool bucks, more tools in your

(50:28):
tool bucks. And I think that's an individual choice, but
I was. I was told at least when I was
a kid, Like my dad was like, yo, you're not
going to get the work if you don't learn how
to read. So for him, it was like you gotta
go to Curtis or Berkeley or you know wherever, Juilliard,
that sort of thing. And I didn't do that. I

(50:49):
cheated and just went straight to a record deal. Um.
But I meant for you, if you're okay, if you're
if you get the call for the Emmys, is it
would you rather pull uh a guitarist that has amazing
feel that can at least get by it on court

(51:12):
charts or whatever ord for you to be in that
high tension environment. You gotta read on site. I think
the first question is really to define what the medium
is asking of you. See, to do the Emmy's Award Awards,
and the requirement for that is different than to do

(51:34):
uh Jimmy fallon. It's different. You want music. That's the
only common denominator. The rest of it is that it's different.
The Emmy Awards. You're gonna play a hundred and fifty
television show. Themes they're gonna arrange from a smission impossible
to friends. You might have masterpiece theater thrown in there,

(52:00):
you might have anything thrown in it, and you you're
gonna record them. You're gonna record them all so that
the winner is they press the button and go, and
then you're gonna have all the music there so that
whoever did win. When the person is talking too long,
you can play them off. That's not the time for
somebody to sit there and go one end and to
end any good time. So you cast who you call

(52:23):
on the basis of the end result and what is
required of you in your in your show a lot.
You know, it's so fluid and it's beautiful. Because it's
so fluid. You guys have a thing, you have a feel,
you have a sound, you have the responsibilities. There's certain
ones that are laid out that you know you gotta

(52:43):
do every night. But then there are other things that
it if it goes this way or this way where
you can turn on the diamond, this show like that,
it's it's because of the nature of the show. And
then in in in in that case it might not
be as necessary. And you guys have spent so many,
so much time together. Wait, guys inside, When she said
Jimmy fallon to myself, I was like, she knows what

(53:12):
you gotta pay attention and hey, and when it's good,
you want to know who's that? Like are you watching?
You know the folks like a mirror and Adam Blackstone.
Because remember I'm still I'm in education now. So the
kids who are going to school, there is this ballot
and this is getting back to what I was. I

(53:33):
was saying, you don't have to you don't have to choose,
because now there are at least some places. Not every
music school. You gotta find the one that supports what
you think you want to do, but there are places
for people to go now to be able to develop
that skill set and that awareness to be able to
go from one side of it to the other side. Uh,

(53:54):
flawlessly if they if they so choose to learn that
it's not this or this or this, but this one
big thing. I'm a better musician if I if I
even know what a producer does. I'm a better participant
in a in a band or an orchestra if I
have a sense of what the music director is dealing with.
And I'm a better music director because I know what
the musicians have to do. In other words, these are

(54:16):
skills that kind of we're co dependent, and you want
to be able to see how different people do it
in different ways and develop ways to be able to
do it that allow for you to produce to get
it done. How how big is your database right now?
As far as are you the person are you the

(54:37):
bridge that knows off the top ten guitar players, uh?
Eleven good keyboard players or that guy really plays for
insuring well, Uh, guy's a great engineer. You're not, are
you people? I'm one of the people that may know
some but what we learned to do with myself, Greg

(55:02):
Feeling Games, Ricky Minor rachel Um, we learned to call
on each other. You need something and you got something
to do, and you need a certain kind of information
or a certain kind of individual to be able to
help you get it done. Then you call. You can
call your peers. This is this is why the community

(55:25):
is so important. You can call on your peers, or
you should be able to call on your peers to
say yo, and without it being a situation of any
kind of other agenda. That's what you're trying to avoid
to be. But you want to be able to call
on your peers and say, I'm doing such and such
and I need see that's what the old school had together.

(55:46):
They had that on lockdown where that many of us
involved in the TV world, So they really will depend
on each other when you come and want to and
you're up there on the podium and this is another one.
I was up there in the part you don't play.
That's people. They created this term called hayden. You're going
to make it work and you're going to support what's happening.

(56:08):
And people would do that on the band stand, you know,
And that's that was that's that's that's a part of
the heritage of our music, of all the music that
we do that. It's survival. And our way of being
able to communicate with each other came from like an
unspoken thing of like, hey, we're trying to make this happen.

(56:30):
We don't need to support each other because meanwhile I'm thinking,
I'm like is this where are there any other sisters?
I mean, I was thinking women period, But I was like,
in this community, is are they're just women that I'm
not seeing? Music directors very few Michelle now disappearing acts

(56:51):
years ago? Yeah, there from from alive. From a live
television type standpoint, that's what I'm like. Patristas, who was
the who was the Well, you know, there's not that
much live television unfortunately, and I think that that's a
problem because I think that there are more women who
are to have, who are capable to have some of

(57:15):
the skills that they would take. But she's such a
boss position. It was. It was pretty cool. Okay, now
we that was literally just one question. I would like
to know how did you uh interact or run it

(57:36):
into Pam Brown, who was the team coordinator for a
soul train. Okay, I wish it was a beautiful, sexy story,
but it's not over Boom did you say teen coordinator? Coordinator?
I went to a park. I was at a park.

(57:57):
I don't even know why I was there, but I
was at a park, you know, high school, hanging with
your hanging with your friends, you know. And this bus
pulled up and she and Don Corneiz get out and
they talked about this show that they were bringing from
Chicago called Soul Train, and that they were gonna shoot
it out here and they would come by the same

(58:19):
park next Saturday. And if you wanted to go over
to the television station, you know, just bring a change
of clothes. We'll pick you up here, we will bring
you back here, and we're gonna all you gotta do
is have fun and dance on the show. So what
was that, like, I'm gonna be on TV? Yes, I mean,

(58:39):
you know me, remember I wanted to me and that
I'm like kind away from a long time ago. So
I was like, this is actually very cool. And the
show was we didn't have a lot of detail about
what to do. They just to come, bring a change
of clothing, dance and that's what we did. So but
you know, I'm looking around at all the other stuff
that's happening because you know what I'm saying, this is

(59:00):
this is stuff going on in here. It's people in here,
and um we would go come and go blah blah
blah blah blah like that. And so I was on
the show. I did maybe five or six of them,
I think, because they would shoot a lot on like
one week when they would do a lot, So I
was like maybe on five or six of those shoots,
which meant that I was on quite a few shows

(59:21):
and saw quite a few artists come on that show.
I was going to say, at that moment, you're such
a to see an unknown al green Bill Withers on
she's on the episode of your The Dead President's episode
where I was doing with the sling, not with the

(59:42):
cast where he's wearing the hot person. Yes, you can
let the pleather pants. You have to ask your own questions. Yeah,
well that's what I was wondering. So I don't know
if I was gonna particularly cute that dad and what
But they said, you ask the question, okay, And I

(01:00:04):
guess I got chosen a lot to do stuff. I
had a little scramble board one time and things like that. Anyway,
pam uh with then you know, if you do a
few of these. She gets to know people who's who's who,
and uh, it was just amazing that. Then later years later,

(01:00:26):
I'm back on the show as a guest to do
you know, forgive me. That's the thing. Um, In all
of your appearances on the show, usually done will acknowledge
or child or sort of like joke about like your
days of this old tring dance or whatever. But in
your four or five appearances, you guys never discussed that,

(01:00:46):
and we never talked about that. That's true. Does he
know he? I think he did, but you know I would,
I would see him in other places. See by this time,
I'm still I'm I'm still in high school, but I'm
starting to play in town. So he he used to
go out and just go to a club or something

(01:01:07):
like that, she would do. And he may have seen
me do something else. And I think he really did
appreciate um musicianship from the standpoint of of of you
know players, you know from Chicago, so that you know,
jazz was a big deal. Uh, so he may have
seen me in a slightly different light. And I and

(01:01:27):
Pam Pam Brown, she did know. She did know that
I played and and stuff like that some kind of way,
I don't know, but anyway, those days on slow train
were really um, really magical, you know, told me a lot,
gave me a lot of of pride and in in
in our music for one, and then in certainly UH

(01:01:48):
kind of um helped me to understand sort of the
the way that UH television and radio could coexist as
a means by which we would get UH very important information,
particularly that of our image to each other. Radio was
the way how did you sign your first record? Dere okay?

(01:02:15):
So uh In nineteen seventy two, I was in this.
I was my last year high school, and like I said,
I went to all black High school, Lock High School,
and we played a lot of Battle of the band's
type of things a jazz band did, because you know,
you win a trumpet, you win a kick drum pedal,
you know. So we did a whole bunch of these,

(01:02:36):
and one of them was up in Monterey, California. And
the winner of this high school band competition that a
band competition and a combo competition. So the winner of
this band competition or combo competition, the prize was to
appear at the Monterey Jazz Festival, which remains today one
of the largest, you know, jazz festivals. Now, our band

(01:02:57):
didn't win, but my combo did, so we got to
play on this as festival. And it was after that
that record companies who were doing that kind of music
were interested in me signing. Now I'm gonna set the
the environment a little bit. There was an artist named

(01:03:19):
Bobby Humphrey, and so all the companies now are looking to, Oh,
we need to have an answer to them. They need
the answer to them, you know. And so we we
had a great set and everything went really really well,
but the companies were really looking. Now. I wasn't interested.

(01:03:40):
And this is another difference. Back then, I didn't feel
like I was ready. I was going to go to college,
you know, I'm still trying to figure out all in
terms of what I really want to do. And the
whole idea of doing an album was really daunting to me.
Remember because my album collection had Joe Innerson in it
and Miles Davids in it, and Ella and it and
all these people in it, and I'm like, nah, I'm

(01:04:01):
not ready for that just yet. But there was a company,
Fantasy Records. They had a subsidiary label, Prestige, and Uh,
it was a short deal, just a three album deal.
I had complete creative control, just you know, we just
want you to do you think and uh, I said, okay.

(01:04:24):
And I needed money for school, so I said, okay,
how did you get your afro so tight on the cover?
Having an afro was an art. You had to really
work at work at it a lot. But yeah, you know,

(01:04:44):
work with Reggie Andrews. Well, Reggie Andrews was one of
the three music directors at music music teachers at Lock
High School. It was his first year of teaching. He
had just graduated from college. It was his first year
of tea gene. So there were three people Don Dustin,
Frank Harris, and Reggie Andrews. And see, Reggie was only

(01:05:07):
a little bit older than us, so we all really
could relate to him very very well from the standpoint
of he handled all of the jazz and uh, you know,
contemporary music in terms of our training, and he was
really um indispensable with to all of our understanding about

(01:05:30):
these different kinds of musical uh music lives that you
could lead. So one day he's bringing you know, he
goes to the club and he tells, uh, Lenny White
looks a man, I'm gonna bring you down to the
to the high school. This was before jazz was institutionalized too.
Come on that and so and he go pick him up,

(01:05:50):
and they come. Herbie Handcock came, Minnie Mobbin came, and
then he knew Maurice White and they needed a place
to rehearse, and he said, well, once you come over
to the high school after hours and rehearsing the multi
purpose room, and we helped slap their instruments in and
out and got them up on the stage so that
they could place. How I met all of them? I
met all of them earth to Fire when I was

(01:06:12):
in high school and they couldn't pay for the use
of the room, so they played my high school prom.
So wh didn't they play? And that was the band
with Jessica Clevees and Ronnie Laws Wait a minute, Rolling Batista,

(01:06:34):
earth Wing Fire played your high school proNT Yes, sir
so up and Larry Dunn and all of them, Al
McKay and of course Maurice and I think we're playing
drums at that time. Ralph Johnson was playing drums at
the time. And these people became like people we would see,

(01:06:55):
you know, on a bi weekly basis as they would
come by to to try to rehearse. And that summer
Mighty Mighty came out and blew up and uh me
after the right after, So that you know these kinds
of you talk about relationships, and you talk about being
in certain kinds of environments and a sense of community

(01:07:17):
and helping each other. I saw that over and over
and over and over. How did you make the transition
from playing at that time to like composing and writing
like your own songs? What was that like? I think
I was always doing it because for me, the playing
and the composing was kind of all melted together. I
didn't have maybe as many um opportunities to put it

(01:07:41):
out there, but I had all kinds of stuff because
in the little groups that I was in, I was
always I was writing or always arranging something. I had
a little band, you know, during the college days, called
Red Means and Rice, and that was a lot. We
made a little money playing house parties and things like this.
And in that band was big player named Charles Meeks,
who ultimately went on to work with Chuck Man, Joni

(01:08:03):
and Josie James, who ended up singing with uh George
Duke for many years, and lots of different people came
through that band, and we worked me a little money
and we played cover tunes, which was a great way
to learn about arranging and stuff like that. Oh cooling
the gang line what you know. I would learn so
much by doing this kind of stuff. So the writing

(01:08:26):
and the arranging and all of that sort of kind
of found it's it's it's it's its own platform through
the plane and then being learning about jazz and learning
the history of the music and learning about improvisation, you know,
because that is spontaneous composition. When you were putting out
your Prestige records, did you tour it all? Like? What

(01:08:47):
was your life like at that time when you first started.
I was in school, so I didn't really tour. I
did a few days, like during the summer a little bit,
but but I didn't I didn't really do too much.
I know. I remember I got the call from John McLoughlin.
He wanted me to join what I said, okay, can

(01:09:11):
And I talked to my parents and they were like,
oh no, no, no, no, you know, so I'm in
school and he was so kind and nice. You know
that this Prestige period was just like, look, I just
need the college money and you're just very casual about
like it was a platform and an idea of being

(01:09:32):
able to do that. But I was always a little
shy about being put out there too too soon, half Baked.
There was a whole bunch of stuff I didn't know.
So how did you go? Yeah? Let me because the
three albums is so distinctively different, Like the first one
is straighthead jazz. Now uh with the I know the
last last one was before the Door or the last

(01:09:54):
one was called shouted out shot it. Okay, Well I
was going to say sword the last I'm sorry my
arts are horrible. Um okay. Before I knew that Regie
produced that or co reduced it, um, it had such
a mind Zello Brothers feel to it that I was asking.

(01:10:17):
I was wondering if, well, you mentioned Bobby Humphrey already,
Like if was it the label asking you guys to
switch each time around or no? No. I just had
all that freedom and I was into so many different
kinds of music, and you know, I to this day,
I look back and I said, that could never happen today,

(01:10:38):
where a record company would allow your expression to continue
to to to morph into different things and allow for
you to document where you were at the time or
where you were feeling at the time in that way
without being that concerned about whether or not there was
going to be a hit. But this was a jazz
label and they were accustomed to I mean the other

(01:11:01):
people on the label. They had Stanley Taranty and on
that label. Joe Henderson was on that label. Uh. They
had canniball Adderlee on that label. Floor Paiem was on
that label. So there were different takes on the music,
and they were accustomed to people kind of moving and
blah blah blah, the the, the, the the the overarching
label was owned by Saul Zins and they had Cretan's

(01:11:25):
clear Water and people like that on the other side
of the world. Okay, So they were always experiment and stuff,
so they were kind of come into that that could
not happen today where you could do three distinctively different
albums and everybody was okay, okay. So usually on this show,
something that means something like in a sentimental, uh valued

(01:11:47):
way to us means like everything Usually there artist is
just like, yeah, I wrote that in two minutes. Can
you give us any stories about before the dorms. Did
not write that in two minutes. I was because that
for for us, like hip hop heads, like that means

(01:12:08):
a lot like past. You remind me all that, But
what was the process of writing that. I mean, you
made it the title cut, so obviously it yet to um.
I think that some of the some of your audience
will relate to this. You know, that time of a

(01:12:29):
day is I don't know, there's just something about it
that where things seem to be at peace. Everything seems
to be just so mellow, so peaceful, just just before
the daybreak. And if you've had issues during the day

(01:12:50):
that follow you into into your trying to get to
sleep at night, and you wake up and you have
just that early early, early, early early morning, it kind
of there's something about it settles you. I still work
when I'm under pressure or a deadline. That seems to
be my productive, most productive part of the day. You
think everyone is sleep, when you think everybody seems the

(01:13:12):
alpha is like the rest of the world is. You know,
you have that solitude to yourself. It's just something special
about that. So the mood of that was what I
was trying to capture. And uh and and at the

(01:13:32):
same time there's a certain kind of balance between a
certain sophistication and soulfulness that when you are operating with
just again that area of your life where you just
feel is your truth. That's that's that was my interpretation

(01:13:54):
at that time of what that felt like. And I
loved the idea of being able to you know, again
going back to my idea of arranging and orchestration, having
just those few instruments to work with trombone, auto flute
and flu flu horn as the different textures and as

(01:14:15):
almost almost like acquire against this rhythm section that is
very very quiet, and then we hit this group and
we just stayed there means everything to us, Thank you.
So what was the transition to electric records? Because I
mean digging hip hop producers, digging in the crates, that's

(01:14:36):
how I'll discovered your fantasy output. But I actually, I
mean Hanging Up was the first thing that I first
here when I was like seven, and I thought that
was your debut that whole time. That was like I
sang one song on the Fantasy Um song called let
Your Heart Be Free, and I played bass based on it.

(01:14:59):
Man listen, So my my deal was over my three
albums were up and and Electra was very interested. A
guy named Don Mizelle was about to start a different,
um smaller label within the Electro label that focused on

(01:15:21):
music that was had jazz sensibilities but also had commercial
and pop sensibilities. So oh, that's interesting. So he wanted,
he said, now the things that like this, will you
do more of that kind of stuff where there's some
there's some vocal. I don't want you to I don't
want you to minimize, you know, the the improvisation and

(01:15:43):
aspect aspect of it or anything like that. But the
giruls are so strong, do you think you oh, yeah,
you know, that's kind of what I was hearing and
where I was at that time. Anyway, did you have
any report with Was this the period? No, this was
before that. That was this was the Joe Smith period?
Was president still it was then Crabs now came in

(01:16:03):
though during the time that I was there on my
last album. Oh okay, okay, there like the late seventies
and early eighties, but yes, so um yeah, So I
Hang It Up was the first single off of that
first album for Electra, and uh, you know, I was

(01:16:26):
influenced by Parliament, Funkadelic and all of that sold them.
Gang vocals or having multiple vocals, even though it was
a different feel, was very appealing to me because I
was always a little skittish about doing solo singing. I
did it because that was the way, you know, I
would sing as a means by which I would get
my point across. But in terms of singing, I was like, no.

(01:16:48):
But you know, okay, since we're in n there's a
question you can finally settle for me after all these
years are borndering. Um, And again you know, Abbot reader
right on magazine. So that's that's where all my information
came from. Um. But I'm led to believe that your

(01:17:13):
involvement in the second Prince album was a lot more
than what you were hinted at, not even credited for,
but hinted at. And then again like, you know, information
has come to me as an eight year old, and
again it's it's right on magazine. My one of my

(01:17:35):
first conversations with him was actually about you and asking
you know, he said that, uh, you know, Patrice gave
me a lot of advice and dadda dada, could you
describe what exactly what you're relationship with Prince? Was your
working relationship with Prince? Because I guess like I weren't

(01:17:57):
either did he want to put you in the band
or why did you do you taught him how to
program and synthesizers or something like? What was the story? Okay,
um are common? Are you coming with the right ones?
So that's fine. Our common denominator was that the engineer,

(01:18:18):
uh of one of my albums told me about him, said,
you know, after Steve, he played all these instruments on
his records. You know that we we all thought that
that was just so amazing. But many of us were
multi instrumentalists, and so we that gave us permission to
at least do that. You know, we might not play

(01:18:40):
every instrument, but we would play more than the thing
that we were known to do. We wouldn't have any
fear about doing that anymore. And the technology would allow
us to do that, with us being able to overdub
and things like this. So Tommy vicari is his name,
is a very well known engineering producer, and at that

(01:19:00):
time he says, there's somebody that I have recently come
across that I'm gonna be working on a project with them,
and I really would love for the two of you
to meet. I said, okay, So he called him on
the phone and we talked. Now I didn't know at
the time that Prince already was aware of you know, me,

(01:19:24):
but he was new and I hadn't heard. So we
we talked some and uh, Tommy said, well, I'm gonna
be you know, working with him, and I said, well,
that's great. I would love to, you know, have a
chance to meet him. So we did, finding me, but
you know, he was not a man of many words,
especially in that first meeting. Well then he had then
stuff came out and it was like things things were

(01:19:45):
happening with him and all said, oh okay, I get
it now. And we had other our paths crossed on
some of these TV shows like American band Stand and
things like that, and we did, you know, his guard
kind of went down enough that he really wanted to talk.
And so he used to call me and we would

(01:20:06):
talk and he would ask me technical questions sometimes how
did you do uh what what what pedal were you
using on the clavnet to get that sign? What did
you do with this? How did you do this? This? This?
And when he would come to town. Uh. We would
try to find a way to be able to to
meet and I remember that the one distinct day I

(01:20:27):
went to a hotel to pick him up. And this
was back in the trench, croat and diaper days, yes, sir,
and we were going back to I lived at my
parents house because in the on the bottom floor was
a double uh level house and on the bottom that's
where I had on my stuff and we were supposed
to be going back to my house to to play,

(01:20:50):
you know, so we could jam and stuff. Then he
got a call and we didn't have to take him back.
We didn't. We didn't get that far. But the idea
was that we developed really a relationship from the standpoint
of just being again in support of what each other
was doing and a willingness to kind of share. And
as eccentric will call it, as he could have been

(01:21:15):
when I would be with him, he was very down earth,
very very real, because the music was our common bond
and our association with one another started there. We became friends.
But we started there and then years passed, you know,
and he just now on the album that you asked
asked about. I know, I remember that I he asked
me to do. He asked me to to write out

(01:21:37):
the string arrangement for I think the song was called Baby,
and then I then there was another album where he
asked me about a piano solo that I had done
on one of my albums. You know, he was listening

(01:21:59):
to something because he was ask about specific stuff sometimes
how did you do this? And what does that? And
what's what makes up this chord and blah blah blah.
So you know we would talk like that and then
I would hear his stuff and you know they'll be
oh m G. You know, it's like stuff going on.
There was just really uh, it was great. His big
yet big influence was Slye and Slide was you know,

(01:22:21):
from San Francisco, so everybody in California was like that
was one of our game changers, you know in terms
of the music, and you ask questions about that. And
he liked jazz and he was all in all this
different kind of stuff and just would ask a lot
of questions. That we didn't see each other for a while,
and then when Purple Rain was about to come out,
we happened to be in New York at the same

(01:22:43):
time and happened to be staying at the same hotel.
How he knew that, I don't know. But he called
and I said, well, where are you? And he said downstairs?
And I said, well where downstairs? It would be a
little more specific. I'm in restaurant. There's no one here.
Can you come down? So I said, okay, So I

(01:23:06):
went down to the restaurant he had. The restaurant was closed,
and we sat and he was really nervous about Purple Rain.
He was like, he says, you know, I've kind of
put it all on the line on this. When I said,
what did you do the best you possibly good? He
said yeah. I said, well then let it go because this,

(01:23:27):
I said, because it's gonna you know, it's gonna be
what it's gonna be. I mean's a new medium for you.
I'm sure the music is stellar. You put your heart
and soul into it, and that's about all you can
do is done. So let it, you know, just now
enjoy the ride, whatever that is. And you know, I
went to the premier and I said, what was he worried?

(01:23:47):
You know, So we have that kind of rapport and
then we had another one of those kinds of moments.
The year he did that he opened the Grammys with Beyonce.
Remember that I was there. That was my first one,
that was the award. That was an awesome part of
that production. Yes, so let me tell you what happened.

(01:24:15):
So let me tell you what happened then. So you
remember Prince and Beyonce did a killer opening for the show.
And when we the way that the Grammys worked because
it's live, they rehearsed the entire show top to bottom,
then they reset it and run it live. So they

(01:24:36):
were rehearsing and the producer direct you know, there was
some pre recording that in the first uh his segment,
and the director and producer came to me and said,
you have got to go and convince him to do
it live live, just to do everything live. And they
had been rehearsing for a week and it was slamming,

(01:25:00):
and I said, well, was there a reason that you
would want to do it live live? And they said yes,
because it'll just be live, blah blah blah. And I'm
saying to myself, it's on television. I was about to say,
I don't even know what you're talking about. Just play
the whole thing live. Don't have any prerecorded happening, No
pre pro tools, doubling, nothing that is enhancing TV at home. Yeah,

(01:25:24):
but you know, so anyway, I said, well I'll talk
to him. So I went to him and I said, okay, uh,
they're they're asking me two for you to consider doing
this live completely, do not to not use any of

(01:25:44):
the pro tools and things and like that. What do
you think I should do? He says, So I look
around for he hidden microphones because he's just looking at you.
Took my stuff off. I said, look, they're gonna run
this show down. You and Beyonce are opening the show.

(01:26:05):
They're gonna run the show down. Everything's gonna be fine.
They're they're set up in the booth. They're set up
in bla blah blah blah blah, and they're gonna run
this down and then they're gonna reset and the next
time we see you, it's going out. Nobody has rehearsed
it that way. Nobody has rehearsed it that way. Cameraman
hasn't rehearsed it that way. SI man hasn't rehearsed it

(01:26:29):
that way. The engineer who's mixing in your stuff, your
guys haven't rehearsed it that way, he says, I understand.
I said, okay. Now, I said, what I can do
is I'll go out in the house and I'll make
sure that that the house is banging so the other

(01:26:51):
tens of millens of people will feel that energy because
the house will feel that energy, but the sound will
be pristine going out. And I think that needs to
be the priority. He says, yes, I feel the same way.
So I said, okay. So I went back to the
directors that probably now never work again, and I said,
you know, he's just not feeling that, so maybe we

(01:27:14):
should go what we know was gonna work and they
and they said, okay, but that was one of those times.
This is my point, is like, what would have been
different is the fact that everyone who was prepared to
do it a certain way not been prepared, and the
first note of that show that they were opening would

(01:27:37):
have potentially created a disaster. And it turns out that
it was one of the best performances ever. Everybody knew
exactly what needed to happen, and it was amazing and
it was electric. They did a great job. And you know,
but I I say that I share that story again
to indicate the idea of respect and to indicate the

(01:28:01):
idea of sharing. The agenda was to come off killing.
How you get there in your methodology has to be
organized so that you can come off killing, not the
ego of somebody who feels like they just want to decide,
just to be able to say and they did it
live at whose expense? You know? So again that community

(01:28:26):
protecting each other. Use the word electric and it reminded
me of something else. Um, you did uh SNL with
Prince in nine? Can you give us a recollection? Which
you know? That was the performance of Electric Chair on SNL.
There was the fift anniversary Huh, look at him? How

(01:28:51):
I missed that? I don't know if she's on a
piano that says her name on the side. He uh
called and asked if I would do that, I'll show
it to you after what. Yeah, so I thought you
called it as he says, I'm going to play the
fifteenth anniversary show of SNL and Batman was coming out

(01:29:14):
and I'm gonna do Electric Chair and I want you
to do it with me. Okay, fine, So he says, well,
we're gonna rehears and we're gonna have eleven days of rehearsal.
How many songs you're doing on the show. We have
a rehearsal tape, don't we? I think we do. Yeah,

(01:29:37):
I haven't. I have an audio. Was it done at
S I r the rehearsal tapes? The rehearsal tapes, because
I don't know for part of it wherever it is.
I have at least fourteen complete. I wish the audience
could see that boss Bill is going through his bag.

(01:29:59):
I'm just trying to tell everything. Yeah, we're collectors of well,
I mean, the thing is, it's just the science, the
science of constantly rehearsing. Yes, intrigues me more than anything.
So yeah, they rehearsed that song for eleven days. I

(01:30:20):
think I came in on day nine. Well, I mean
I was like, dude, I I can't leave, but he
said okay. So I came in on the ninth day,
I think something like that, and I rehearsed it, you know,
that day and the next day, and then we went
to New York and you run it down. So he

(01:30:42):
had put on the on the piano, which was like, wow,
this is crazy. And I think they were the band
wasn't transition there? Um, so I don't know if this was,
you know, looking back now, looking back on it, I
don't know if this was like a lightweight audition. I

(01:31:03):
don't know what this was. But the idea though that
he did call me to participate in that, and that
he felt that it was a big deal and a
big enough deal that he would want my name on
the piano, I thought was, Wow, this is and yeah,
I mean we do have that. You do have rehearsal,
I was going to say from them from the night
of the show, Yeah, that's gonna tell us that's all

(01:31:25):
you're gonna do that. I thought he was thought that
it was clearing stuff a lot like it was amazing.
Though it was amazing, and and see, it's a different situation.
It's different when you know someone and you see there
their process from afar. But having been there at that

(01:31:49):
short at the short rehearsal and that during that short
you know time that I was there, this gave me
a little even additional insight into his detail, into his
listening to every part in every line, into an understanding
that so much of what we saw that looked so

(01:32:11):
effortless and spontaneous was built out of the security of
knowing that everything was in place, you know it was
it was. It was great to be able to to
witness that. All right, possess Oh okay, what's your question? No, no, no,

(01:32:34):
I was just moving to possess because we should talk
about your kidding. Yeah, well man, possess Okay, what was it?
Always the hit? But then there's always the thing back
in the damning. When I was a kid, it was
about you. You would knowing you would buy the forty five,

(01:32:58):
but you better listen to that side, yes, because something
was usually happening there. I told Smokey Robinson one time,
I said, dude, you could release the whole album of
B sides and so you know what we became accustomed
to was, you know, don't sleep your your your entire presentation,
your whole album. UM needs to have those moods in

(01:33:21):
it and things in it that allow for everybody to
come to it because you never know, you know, what's
gonna really resonate with that? Right? Haven't you heard? Was
was possessed? Yes? How did you feel about when that
it kind of got resurrected by groove? Thing? Great? Okay?
How many things I felt? I felt great? When? Yeah,

(01:33:42):
I was gonna say yes, yet the whole and your
whole string intro. Now here's the thing about the string
introp because most people didn't know you that drains can
be funky, but they didn't typically in in those records.

(01:34:08):
You know, they didn't get to do that. But I
know they can do that. So that's definitely so you know,
I would, I would, I would add you know, I
tell my students sometimes that I purposely hide the vegetables
in the dessert. You don't always know the thing that

(01:34:29):
somebody is contributing or the lesson that's happening through the
particular activity that they're doing. But later when you dissected
a little bit and you find out other stuff, you realize, Wow,
what an influence that had. Now Here was the thing
I was very Uh Obviously the genre version that they
did was awesome, and I was really elated at Kirk Franklin.

(01:34:49):
But you know what elated me as much as what
they did with the song the fact that they used
a string intro. Because you work so hard on it,
it's like wow. So you know, little things like that
come up and let you know that, uh, you know,
people are listening. They don't always understand all of the details,

(01:35:11):
but they feel it and uh so, yeah, that was awesome.
How many times I settled for your lovery? Mate? Was
that music? Did it right well? And it's been sampled
a lot. It is one of the sample requests that
we get the most often, speaking of samples giving it
up as giving up talk about that. So I love that.

(01:35:35):
I wanted to do a duet on the record, and
I asked Stevie to do it with me, and he
we couldn't make the dates hook up hook up, and
I was like, oh, man, okay, But I had previously
met d J. Rogers. I loved his voice and his delivery,

(01:35:57):
and he was a friend of Reggie Andrews. So I said, well,
then maybe DJ will do it. And he came in
and slated. I was laughing so hard most of the time,
just because he was just so soulful that I'm surprised
if my laughter didn't end up on front of that.
I could hardly sing. I was just chest your cat,

(01:36:19):
you know, smiling. It was Can I ask you about
these beads? You know what I'm saying? And you held
up the beads and the braids and the consciousness and
so was it a conscious decision and then like, I

(01:36:41):
just I want it's a it's a process. We all
know that this is not something easy to do to
keep it fresh as an artist and having and you
need a good chiropractice that because on the other cover
you kind of leaned because it looked like it was yeah, yeah,
well it was something that we you decided to do.

(01:37:02):
I wanted. I wanted braids, um because I thought that
they looked really beautiful, and I thought that it was
another way too. And I had a frow for so long,
and I thought that it was another way to be
able to kind of express express a certain pride and
a certain consciousness and things like that, and to be
able to do it in in some way that was different.

(01:37:23):
And then the lady that was braiding my hair su
bungle A Bradley West is her name, and she uh said, well,
you know, um, she was going through these books you
know of African uh folklore and styles and things like that,
and she said, let's try some beads. So we did

(01:37:44):
some beads and it became like a thing and it
was really a beautiful way to adorn these braids uh
and sort of frame a very um natural feeling, but
to do something that, you know, just added that that
thing as an artist and a frontal girl who bore
braids when you started getting into the jam like how

(01:38:06):
was you ma choreograph? How you every time? Yeah? But no,
it was a style that was really became really really
popular and other people started doing it and it was
really cool and I enjoyed it for a long long time.
It was good, easy to maintain, you know, on the road.

(01:38:28):
Always looked nice, and you know, it was cool. I
was always always wanted to ask you ready, Freddie Washington,
that is like forget me. I mean, that's one of
the top five baselines of all times? Can I ask
it about that? Though? Okay, so it's it's in uh Steve.

(01:38:53):
I know that most bass players will choose E because
it's an open e. But that was a very transition
to the bridge. Why why didn't he just take like

(01:39:15):
why did he just not take a bass solo in
uh F sharp the key of the song? Because he's Freddie?
No I done it. I was like, oh, oh, you
just said anything. You know, here's what I am. I

(01:39:38):
tay story because there's a story. Yes, okay, So Freddie
is from Oakland, California north of here, and he had
been you know, playing bass, coming and coming around when
he would when I was up there for sessions and stuffing.
We had mutual friends, and we finally met him. I
heard him playing us a man. He's he's really good.
So he decided he wanted to live in Santeles because

(01:40:00):
he wanted to do sessions. So he called. You know,
I used to do some gigs and occasion call him
from the Bay Area to come and play, you know,
a little gig a weekend or something like that. So
we became good friends and he would stay at my
parents house and stuff like that. So then one day
he just called and he says, Okay, I'm about done
up here. I really want to come down there, really

(01:40:22):
try to get in on the recording session scene. As
your mama can I live on her couch for and
so my parents were pretty progressive, you know. I said,
this is gonna stretch it, but okay, and they said,
oh yes, Freddy can stay down here in a little
guest room for a little bit. So he did. He

(01:40:43):
came down. So we played every day, as you gonna imagine,
we played every day, and sometimes he would play drums
and I would play bass. Sometimes he played keyboard and
I would play drums. Sometimes you would play bass, you know.
And we had a little for track, so we would
record everything. And one day, uh he was he was
home and I had just come from the market or

(01:41:04):
something like that, and I'm hearing this baseline, that one
and I'm saying, WHOA, what's that? I don't know, just something,
and so I said, well, let's record it. So recorded it,
and that's how the chorus and everything kind of came together.
I said, well, this baseline is so fierce chord wise,
it doesn't need that. That's the that's the vibe, that's

(01:41:26):
the movement right there. So we were doing this and
as we continue to play it, um we said, well
it needs it needs something, but it doesn't need to
go far, but it needs to it needs to go
away from this and come back and there you have it.
Do do do do do? I was like, what role

(01:41:48):
did it? Was? Charles mems he what role did he playing? Producing? Like,
how did in terms of taking it from just a
four track demo to a fully produced song? Well, Charles
I had known since high school. He went to Lock
High School. Also great pianist. So you hired your high
school because Gerald also played in your band, right? Is
that him playing the solo? That is Gerald's first recorded

(01:42:11):
solos ever on record, and that is a first, that's
the first TAKEO. Wait, is that also Gerald doing the
Hollywood Shuffle Team? No? No, wats okay? Really Ernie Watts? Really? Okay? Okay?
Who taught Gerrold? Who come over to the school played with?

(01:42:34):
Did he play with Swen or I know that he
did stuff with He did a whole bunch of yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.
He was like Quincy's go to solos on everything. Yeah,
he was solo solos on all that stuff. That so
Charles in the studio, Like Charles back then, the producer

(01:42:56):
it was not necessarily a producer's medium where every where
the producer would change things. The producer's primary role at
that time was to manage that buzz and to be
sure that the flow of the sessions, because they were
all alive, that the flow of the sessions yielded enough

(01:43:17):
work each day. And you know, they would have musical
things to say because especially as a player, I'm not
in the booth to be able to hear it. As
it's going across. So somebody that you're close enough to
musically who can say we need one more or careful
a letter B or whatever the situation is, or to say,
I know it felt weird, but it's killing you need
to come in now and check it out or what

(01:43:39):
you know, just would have suggestions to keep keep the
flow going and then after you had captured then be
able to help you, um, continue to take those ideas
and mold them into the final product. UM A little
bit different from composing by committee or where you're handing
it into the producer and and it's going to be

(01:44:01):
completely they're a new canvas or some completely something that
they would do. So Charles was really good at being
able to um be really inside my head and yet
remains uh totally objective to what the final result would
need to be and monitor our workflow in our work progress.

(01:44:21):
So that song becomes a hit, how does your life change? Well, Uh,
first of all, you need to know the story that
it didn't. It was not received at the that whole album,
that whole straight from the Hard album which has number
one on it, Remind Me on It, Get Me Not.
It was not received well at Electric when we turned

(01:44:43):
it in should say, yes, very a very well meaning man,
but his name was Oscar Fields. So dealing with as

(01:45:06):
far as artists, artists well over Washington was on the
label at the time, was on the same league Lady
White and Peanut Butter they want the label. It was
a bunch of folks. Someone got my Peanut Butter reference
from yesterday. I never got to explain that to you guys.
So there were there, you know, there were a few
of us because we represented this cross hybrid of again

(01:45:32):
jazz sensibilities running through the music. But the music was
danceable and part of again part of our heritage in
terms of you know, R and B and and all
of that. So, uh, you, most of the black acts
at a large label like Electra, we're not necessarily given

(01:45:56):
access to the same kinds of promotion and no tools
and help that became part of the day. The money
would be less. And in terms of this is when
we were kicking over into now, videos having to be
one of the main things that would allow for people
to be able to to see and you couldn't do that.

(01:46:17):
And unless your record like crossed Over and and and
and even promotional dollars. Even touring dollars were set up
with some kind of criteria where you had to sell
so many records first and crossover unless you had some
other means by which you could make it happen. It
was Quincy Jones that really told us, Uh, you better

(01:46:40):
get with this indrependent promotion thing and and figure out
how you are going to be the first entrepreneur in
the first catalyst for getting the music out there. You
can't make people love it, but you gotta get it
in front of them, and sometimes they leave the record
companies at that time, they would they would miss because
even if you have of the video, I'm like, where

(01:47:01):
can you service the video? Well, that was there just
allowing you not to have you know, just hit me.
Did you tour it a lot or at all? Because
besides soult train, you didn't see me much. I didn't,

(01:47:22):
I mean, jeffreysarn the dollars weren't there for them to
justify any kind of help with the tour. And at
that point, Uh, part of would record company promotion and
marketing plans included you being able to get out in
front of people. So I ended up I did get out,
but I ended up on a lot of these all

(01:47:42):
star events, but why the sprofessor or like that sort
of thing. Well, and and and somewhere was like multiple
artists playing type playing, and then you say, well, here's
my new single and then you have you know, Lenny
White actually playing Forget Me Nots in front of people
for the very first time. I mean when people heard
it before it came out. He was the first drummer

(01:48:03):
that played in and you got the saxophone solo being
played by Stanley turnteen instead and awful, let me tell you.
But the idea was that was the way I could
get out because it was just me. I didn't have
to support a band, and I didn't have to support
all the other kinds of things that go out to

(01:48:24):
Al Hayman, he missed. Haman was the young, upstart uh
uh concert promoter that was going to turn it all
on its ears because because he saw so many artists
not able to get in front of their audiences, so
he created ways by having these multi artists things. He

(01:48:50):
couldn't do it on the scale of of of of
the Budweiser super Fest and the Cool Jazz Festival, but
he could do it in smaller things where he could
take five or six of us and we would go
and we would play different schools and things like that,
colleges and places where he said to get the music
and you guys as artists in front of these people,

(01:49:11):
because when your music blows up, you know, it's a
different thing. When you said, you know, I was there
and I heard that song blah blah blah. So I
really truly believe despite the fact that between Freddy and
Charles and myself we put our life savings of a
few dollars together to buy three weeks of interper promotion
to get Forget Me, not at least in front of radio.

(01:49:32):
I really think that having the idea that people appreciated
it because I had played it out there before it
was out and let them know that this is new
and it's about to come out. Hey, it's either thumbs
up with thumbs down. And then it was resounding thumbs
up Forget Me. And this was a little ahead of
the curve too. So it was that courage given by
my people that allowed for me to be able to say, yeah,

(01:49:55):
I would be worth trying to see what happens at
the radio. When did it finally hit like when the
how long did it take forward to them able to
catch on? The label caught on maybe a month after
he came out, to the point that they gave me
my money back to them. So, okay, you it's rare
that we get an artist who actually composes the songs

(01:50:19):
that will later be sampled. Um, and you're just such
a uh sample friendly artists? Is the not the myth
true or whatever? Because I guess when we talk to
Ali willis about uh, the the September effect of writing

(01:50:44):
September Earth one and fire, And then she reminded us, well,
I was one fifth of the writers. So even though
that was a massive hit, sharing a check with five
of the people still meant like, you know, don't quit
your day and got work just yet. But as someone
who has created music with the least seven to eight

(01:51:05):
songs that you can pretty much stand the test of
time of of hip hop sample ability, are you able
to make a nice living off just the sample residuals?
Or is it just like, Okay, I could put I
could have steak with the beans, and right, I can

(01:51:27):
put some cheese, get some new braids, because I guess,
I guess the perception is always like that one hit
single that caused me to retire for the rest of
my life. Or man, if this to be the sampled
on this thing, or somebody covers it like yeah, that

(01:51:48):
sort of thing. So is that myth true or is
it just like it's my mortgage cool for three months.
I think that the mechanism um that allowed for somebody
who is like like an Alley like a songwriter to
be able to uh live on those royalties, that that

(01:52:11):
that mechanism isn't there in a way that it used
to be. So the samples are about as close as
you'll get to what may have been covers before. Um.
And you know, no dis because I totally get it.
But you know, it ain't like the sample that everybody

(01:52:32):
wants a sample. Your stuff doesn't have any money too
at that moment to necessarily, uh pay you an advance
or something like that, and those sample requests and uh
those those kinds of licenses. I mean it would, especially
the way things are now, it has to be like
super massive for you to be able to see a difference.

(01:52:54):
So it's about now having um the ability I think
to do it many different ways. Sampling is an income stream.
It is a decent one. But if somebody I don't think.
I think we're the day of somebody being able to
live off that is not there the way that it
was when you were living off of royalties, because you

(01:53:18):
were receiving several sets of royalties, you were getting your mechanicals.
You were getting if it was using the films, your
performance sync, licenses, data la la la la la, and
if you had covers, and if that cover happened to
be done in another language. There were all these mechanisms
and companies that were promote the use of all of

(01:53:39):
this music. If now the songs had to be worthy,
they had to be able to stand up. But there
are people who every day their job nine five they're
writing songs all day. That was a job as a songwriter.
We're getting back to the craft of that. I think
we're getting back to people who are songwriters, um exercising

(01:54:01):
that muscle every day to write ten or fifteen songs
to find one that they can then release and see
how it's gonna go and or hopefully get it to
another artist or something like that. But it's it's it's
I think it would be very difficult now to just
make your living off of sample. I imagine. Let me
tell you what the men in black check imagine. They

(01:54:22):
had to be pretty good. It is. I could actually
put the words savings back in my vocam. Indeed, that's
what I'm talking about. I take that bag. Yeah that
was that was good. So I recalled the rapid fire
or we've missed anything? Um? Uh we didn't ask feel

(01:54:43):
so real? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, okay, it feels so real. Um,
well Snoop Dogg cover Snoop Dogg. He did, and he
was on the scene. I forgot. I forgot. Now I

(01:55:07):
got one question I always I wanted to ask you, Um,
as a musician, I mean, you have your ups and
down periods whatever, Um, what was what would be considered
your down period? Because to me, you've always worked and
I've always seen you doing stuff. So what were some
of a period you know where things just kind of
you know, mab might got a little tight, and um,

(01:55:28):
you know, how did you navigate that? Uh? My downs
wouldn't be bad. They were moments of clarity, I guess
the biggest one. I did one album for Arista, after
my after my extent, after my standard fantasy, I mean sorry,

(01:55:50):
after my stint at Elektra. Bob kras Now came in
on my last of seven albums. Okay, that was the
album that Feels a Real was And when I didn't
see the kind of still after all we had gone through,
after we had come they had, I never got that
our relationship was such that I, in their mind, for

(01:56:12):
whatever reason, earned even the opportunity to be able to
use the best of their machine. So after that album
and Feels a Real sat between when Doves Cries number one,
feels a Real number two and tell me I'm not
dreaming Michael Jackson and Jermaine Jackson and they didn't. But

(01:56:33):
trying to take things to the next level, I said,
come out. So I had been being courted a little
bit by Clive Davis um he said he really really
wanted me on the label. So I went to Arison.
I did one album for Ariston and he held onto

(01:56:53):
that album for almost close to three years. So it's
sat while he's waiting on the hit. I don't hear
a hit and see the last time of somebody telling
me that it was, so I'm like to go off
in your head. It went off in my head. But

(01:57:15):
at the same time, you know, I said you know,
I think I'm at a crossroads where I need to
determine whether or not having done these albums and received
all this great uh energy, you know, from an audience
that accepted me as I was. When nobody was cared
enough to even ask what we we're gonna do, we
just go in and do to all of a sudden

(01:57:36):
being like almost like a little bit feeling like a
little micromanaged. But I also knew that that was a
part of the way that they did things over there.
But the waiting game was I'm not ready for the
waiting game, So I got busy because I had other
skills and other things to do. Remember for me, that
signing at all was kind of on on the on

(01:57:59):
a path to anything else. Remember, I wanted to do
TV and music for TV and film. That's that's that
was my goal. That was not my final destination, but
it was. It was a great training ground, and it
offered me a lot of opportunity, and it offered me
a lot of access um. So I wasn't so afraid
when it when it got to be going on three

(01:58:19):
years and I'm still waiting on this magic bullet uh
to say, you know, I don't know that I can
do this this way. So when I did hear the
song that they chose that they felt was like, you know,
the second coming, I was like, really, and radio, particularly
Black radio, was like, oh, we were not expecting this

(01:58:43):
from you. Now. Remember I had had like all these
other albums, So I developed relationships with program directors and
things like that because the music was consistent in terms
of whatever they were listening for, and the audience had
already received what I do based upon what I do.
So um, this was really a departure and was not

(01:59:05):
received very well. And so um, that's when I knew.
I said, Okay, well it may be time to kind
of press a pause on this part of it and
be focused on the used use the time to focus
on the things that I was on the way too.
And sort of once they put on the what got sidetracked?
You know? But the scoring it solf because that's a

(01:59:27):
that's a thing where you gotta pump, you gotta pump
that machine in a whole other way of just trying
to get in the meeting. Album also just sort of
like exfusion, yeah, with Ernie and and do google upon.
So we did, we did, We did too, two CDs
actually and that and that was always for me. I

(01:59:48):
always had a release that I didn't have to feel
locked in. I think what took soul and takes so
many of our artists out is that what ever they're doing,
they reached some barrier or boundary and they don't necessarily
have a way to punch themselves out of it. And

(02:00:08):
it's at the at the at the highest level. In
the lowest it's like, you know, I mean, I watched
I watched people who I feel like would have just
exploded had they had a way to be able to
compartmentalize a little bit and go do something else. I was.
I was hurt when Philip Simon died, you know, and

(02:00:32):
you both feeling these were people that Harris to remember
they're wrested too. I saw, like Stephie Stephanie Mills for
a while was there and kind of it kind of
got and I'm like, man, the difference maker for me
was I think having something else that I love that
didn't take me away from the music and allowed me

(02:00:53):
to have another platform and another outlet. And I think
that that's one of the other um contributors to me
being involved so deeply in education now because you want
to do this thing and you want to have every
option open to you of how you're gonna get there

(02:01:14):
and how you're gonna do it. You know, you want
difference paths of window open, window not open, and go
through the back door, back door, not go through the side,
you know, because it's about the music and you have
something you want to do and you have something you
want to say and it's important. So you need multiple
ways to be able to place yourself in that environment.

(02:01:35):
And uh, that's what saved I think that's what saved
my life. So what is your life like now? Like
what should the average day in the life your kids
know Russian? Is patrees Russian? Or is it just like
like my mom's a teacher. Well, my my my my
son is nineteen, he's almost twenty. He knows now he

(02:01:59):
does now becau when other people have told you. But
he you know, has been around and comes to the
has come to different things and kind of like connected
the dots. Oh, it's different. So when she told me
to take out the trash, it was her telling me
to do you one son and a daughter, and now

(02:02:20):
my daughter is now thirteen, she's just now getting it
because now she's uh, you know, finding her own music
and go and she knows a little bit and I
don't I don't know that they'll do it as a profession.
But they both played He plays guitar a little bit,
she plays string bass, so they they kind of get it,

(02:02:45):
him more than her. But what about your students, Like
to your students, Oh yeah, they get it, um and uh,
you know, teaching at the college level, so so they
they are you know, they want to get it because
they want to be there, and so you need to
know who you How do you manage that though? But
the can I meet you after class? Can I when

(02:03:06):
I can have any of your time? Can I? Like,
I'm sure you get a lot of those requests. But
the curriculum, especially the curriculum at the Popular Music program
at USC, I helped. I helped to sort of coordinate, um,
those things that were important. So they get a lot
of information. And then I'm still active, you know, as
a teacher, So they get a lot of information all

(02:03:28):
the time, and and from not just me, but from
other you know, people who have a lot of the
uh same kind of information who came up wanting to
be able to play anything and want to do it
just I just want to be in it. I just
want to do it, so I better get really good
at a lot of stuff. Have you been involved in

(02:03:48):
any of advocating of music education like nation wide? Because
you just seem like the perfect person that would do
some things like that. Man, And I know that you
work with the Grammys that I will from the standpoint
of teaching. I do that, And then I'm also at
Berkeley College Music as their ambassador for artistry in education,
so sometimes and I've worked with Grammy in the schools
and I've worked at the Thelonious Monk Institute of Jazz.

(02:04:09):
So I've had different platforms and different been asked to
do different kinds of things. But in terms of us
having a certain kind of generational advocate for the kind
of thing you're talking about on a broader base, I
don't know that I've ever been asked to do anything
like that on a consistent basis. I'll just see you

(02:04:31):
at the White House, but now maybe not this White House.
That's not rushing over that. I don't no collusion, no
collusion for Donald Trump. Dr Russian. We really thank you

(02:04:51):
for thank you, Thank you. I was so happy. You
don't understand when I when I sent you the text
message and I saw the three dots, that is awesome.

(02:05:12):
Thank you guys for asking them. Congratulations. You know, you
guys do to have an open platform to be able
to speak truth and really be able to get inside
of our people's heads and what's going on and talk
about it. It's really important that communication is so so key.
It's been our survival. And so he said the same thing,

(02:05:32):
just like this is one of the first time, like
the older generation and the younger generation, we don't really
get the dialogue like that, and you know, just we
just thank you for being over like doing this show.
It's like a life lesson after life lessons for me.
So it's beautiful. Well, it's an important thing because, like
I said, by I don't want to go so far
to say by design, but by design. Um. You know,

(02:05:55):
as people become successful, you know you're pulled away as
opposed to being able to gather and when you have
the opportunity to be able to, you know, get out
and do some things. The information that you get and
the understanding that you get from being able to absorb
other kinds of things and be other places and meet
other people. That's important stuff to be able to bring

(02:06:16):
back so people's horizons can be broadened. So please continue
to do what you're doing and know that you have
a thousand percent of my support. Manscious. Thank you. As
a new California resident, just meeting somebody who has a
history of blackness and it's still very conscious and deep
in it, because you know, as the East Coast person,
you come here, you're like, well, I'm just soaking it

(02:06:37):
and I'm gonna ask you some recommendations later for all
kinds of black things. Got black Well, ladies and gentlemen
on behalf of Team Supreme. Fine, take a little It's like, uh, sugar, Steve, Okay, sugar, Yeah,

(02:07:01):
he salty Steve. I'm a little under the weather. But
I did have, um, I know that you were saying, well,
you know, go ahead. I was just curious out of
the I know you said that East Coast jazz people

(02:07:21):
would come out here, and you see them too, But
at the West Coast jazz seen in the sixties and seventies,
who were your favorite piano players or just jazz artists
from from out here, from out here, Well, I'm gonna
have to broaden our coast a little bit to just
do the west of the Mississippi side. So Joe samples

(02:07:42):
from Houston. It's not right here in l A. But
he was here a lot because they did someone studio
work here, so you know, he was He became sort
of again another person that had that kind of mentoring
attitude and was helpful. Um, let me see, let me see.
And then you know, some of my peer group, Billie
Child is amazing, Todd Cochrane amazing, and we're not that

(02:08:07):
far in age. But we listened to a lot of
the same people and listened to each other. Haven't haven't
grown up in l A? Like what we what chads
are your parents listening to? People? They listened to Harold
Land and Blue Mitchell. They were out here. Um a
lot to um. Joe Henderson lived up in the Bay Area,
so we heard a lot of that. I heard a
lot of that. Um brew Beck was here. Yeah. I

(02:08:31):
heard a lot of his stuff too, not quite as much, um,
you know, the really well known stuff. But I didn't
really get into a lot of you know, his other
music other than the stuff that most people knew, you know, UM,
what about like cal Jad he was on a fantashy
oh yeah, cal Jater was on a fantasy he had
one of his records was it was read I had
this moment moment. Yeah, Claire Fisher. You mentioned Claire Fisher earlier. Yes, yes, Um,

(02:09:03):
do you have any say whatsoever about the reissues of
your records or anything like, yeah, we can't find find something.
None of the stuff on streaming, like none of the
I'll give you. I'll give you a scoop the masters.
Now recently, just recently, I went to a German company.

(02:09:25):
I'm trying to remember that wonder Bird has that son
they have something. I was like, that's a label, okay,
K seven Sea. They just acquired a lot of stuff
from the Warners catalog under which this stuff was. Um.

(02:09:50):
So those will be ways you can investigate and then
you know, if you still can't find something, you can come.
We gotta leave. You still needs to alight anyway, y'all
taking stems, y'all will be having to take the track date.

(02:10:14):
Plea stem your stuff up, please please? Alright, so on
behalf of anything else, Steve, No, thank you? All right. Actually,
you know, Steve, I'm with you now that I totally
forgot about Hollywood. Listen I'm talking about I know, I know.
I'm just saying now. I wish we could do role

(02:10:35):
Call again because I totally forgot about Hollywood Shuffle and
I would have made a Timmy reference the next ground
jaredy Kurve, you know all those people in that movie,

(02:10:58):
I saw it happening, keenan Ill. All these people are
really blown up. So again, community, community, beautiful. Let's hear
from the community to the people, because the people got
the power. I'm sorry here, sorry, and that's how we'll
setting off the community station. Thank you very much, y'all good.

(02:11:28):
Of course. Love Supreme is a production of My Heart Radio.
This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
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