QLS Classic: Terri Lyne Carrington

In honor of Women's History Month, travel back to a 2022 conversation with the legendary prodigy drummer and visionary Terri Lyne Carrington, as she shares her stories of being a confident child amongst the greats. She breaks down earning the respect of the architects of Jazz, working on the Arsenio Hall Show, and appearing in Beat Street. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hi, this is Sugar Steve from Quest Love Supreme. This March,
we're celebrating women's history at QLs, something that we've done
for years. Back in March of twenty twenty two, we
spoke to Terry Lynn Carrington about her years as a
jazz prodigy, some of the prejudice she faced as a
young female drummer playing with elder males, and how she
kicks down the doors for others as founder and artistic
director of the Berkeley Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice

(00:28):
as a jazz guy. I really enjoyed this episode. Whether
you heard it when it was first released or this
is your first time, we hope you enjoyed.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
Ladies and gentlemen, another episode of Quest Loves Supreme. I'm
your host Quests Love. We got Team Supreme in the
hit House Fontigolo. Wow new If Bill Sherman were here,
he would notice that you're in yet another room in
the house.

Speaker 4 (00:59):
Yeah, this is my studio. It's just easier for me here.
I normally recording my living room, but my.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Son was going to school out uhstairs, so I just
bring it upstairs to the studio.

Speaker 4 (01:08):
And do it here.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
Wait, virtual school is still going on or is it
optional them as well?

Speaker 4 (01:13):
We yeah, it's option. We did it.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
Yeah, he'll be going back to classroom for the junior year,
but for this year it was just the numbers around
here were crazy, so we put him in virtual Smart.

Speaker 4 (01:24):
We gotta be smart man. Uh, Steve, where are you
at right now? I'm where you are?

Speaker 2 (01:30):
In the sixty seven degrees at thirty rock.

Speaker 4 (01:33):
We're freezing in thirty rock right now.

Speaker 5 (01:35):
And yeah, keep that covid out.

Speaker 4 (01:37):
It's cold. I know, Yeah, I freeze the COVID out definitely. Uh.
Where are you at with black part behind you?

Speaker 5 (01:44):
Lamert all day?

Speaker 4 (01:45):
That's where I yoh, yeah, I.

Speaker 5 (01:47):
Forgot to tell you you was here.

Speaker 4 (01:49):
I took my first visit to Lahmurt Park.

Speaker 5 (01:51):
You know why I can't stand.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
I only had only had like thirty five minutes to
run the Juneteenth.

Speaker 5 (02:00):
He was at the June teen festival.

Speaker 4 (02:02):
I think I was in a legit episode of Insecure. Yo.

Speaker 5 (02:05):
Somebody told me they saw black thought I thought they
was lying.

Speaker 4 (02:08):
It was awesome. Yeah. I went to uh juneteen for
half a second. Then I went to.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
Uh the Body Rule party like in another side of
l a like Saturday.

Speaker 4 (02:19):
Man, it was.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
It was one of the nicest, blackest experiences I've ever
had in Los Angeles.

Speaker 5 (02:24):
People don't know about that. I'm glad you said that.

Speaker 4 (02:26):
I forgot. Yeah, you're you're a Lamert Parker. Did you
enjoy it?

Speaker 6 (02:30):
I loved it? This was an amazing Juneteenth weekend. I mean,
thank god we came through. It was looking sketchy for
a minute because of Walmart and then but it came
through nicely.

Speaker 4 (02:38):
Damn ice cream.

Speaker 7 (02:43):
You know, Bill, you know Billy Higgins had the World
stage there, so you probably if this is kind of
a Lamert Park yeah, then you never experienced that. But
that was really dope back in the day.

Speaker 5 (02:55):
I'm learning.

Speaker 3 (02:56):
I'm learning, well, you know, if we if we bring
the festival back to Los Angeles, I think we're going
to travel with it, so we're looking at like Texas
and other spots.

Speaker 4 (03:05):
But I definitely want to do another student team. Oh god, yeah.

Speaker 5 (03:10):
Yes, yes, did you did it?

Speaker 4 (03:12):
You did well?

Speaker 3 (03:12):
There's nothing exclusive about one in the spread the June
teenth Love a Round anyway, y'all. As I was saying,
you know, I would say that this year for me
has been an awesome year for bucket listing, and I'm checking.

Speaker 4 (03:28):
I guess I could say I'm checking a lot.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
Of my musical heroes, bringing them on the show and
neuro and out on them. And our guest today is
absolutely no exception. I'll say that she's probably the first
young person male or female, the first young person that
I ever saw on a drum set. And I guess

(03:52):
at the time when I first I forget the name
of the show was like on PPS, like Rebop or
something like that. I forget what it was, but it's
definitely one of those like local Boston shows or whatever.
And to see a young kid on a drum set
definitely made an impression on me when I was a kid.

(04:14):
I forget what year it was, like, I was like
six or seven when I first saw you. I think
you were like twelve, thirteen or whatever.

Speaker 4 (04:20):
But she's literally done it all.

Speaker 3 (04:22):
Grammy's college professor, two time late night bandleader, activist, producer,
collaborated with such luminaries like the great Clark, Terry, Wayne Shorter,
Herbie Hancock. I know that you have to be in
the meditation if you if you have if you collaborate

(04:43):
with those two.

Speaker 7 (04:45):
But I'm a bad Buddhist.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
Yeah, that's Ron's Spalding the whole mosaic project with you know,
Diana Crawl and and and the likes al Ji Rostan
Gets Clark, Terry Wood he Shaw.

Speaker 4 (04:56):
I can go on and on and on. This has
been a long time coming.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
Thank you for your patience, because this is one of
these episodes where, you know, because of the courses and
the events of my life in the last month or so,
I've had to put this off the least three or
four times.

Speaker 4 (05:12):
You've been very patient.

Speaker 3 (05:13):
Finally I can say, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Quest
of Supreme Terry Lynn Carrington.

Speaker 4 (05:18):
Thank you, Yes, I appreciate it. Thank you. How are
you today?

Speaker 7 (05:24):
I'm great. This is my pleasure talking to you. I'm
a big fan and I love everything that you do.
So the aberration is mutual.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
We've never had an in depth, heart to heart like conversation.
So whenever I hear through other people like oh, you know,
Terry Sis, what's up or whatever, you know it Occasionally
you've come by, like I've seen you play a few
gigs or whatever, and I'm still mind blowing, Like there's
there's always this thing where you know, jazz musicians are
so not above the fray, but just like above whatever

(05:57):
is below them as far as pop music concern is
concerned or whatever, like it's all one thing.

Speaker 7 (06:02):
It's all black music, you know, Like I mean, it's
all comes from the blues. So there was something something
would be wrong with me if I didn't appreciate what
you did, you know, that would be like if any
you know, if I had a jazz friend, you know,
didn't appreciate you, I would be looking at them sideways.

Speaker 4 (06:22):
Well, I thank you for that. I appreciate.

Speaker 3 (06:25):
Where are you talking to this right now from you
have a very interesting background. It looks like a mall
in a prison. At the same time, I have.

Speaker 7 (06:34):
A few backgrounds. I'm at home, but that's just my
Berkeley background. Here's another Berkeley background. Yes, here's an animated
one with I don't know who's that, Chicak Yoh's red
and Alice Coltrane. Just when I just want to see
Obama drop the mic when I'm missing my grandmother. Okay,

(06:58):
there's our slogan. You can't really see it, but it's
jazz without patriarchy. Oh and this one you might recognize.
This is from soul because you know, I was a
consultant on soul.

Speaker 3 (07:07):
Yeah, I know, I know, like they went above and
beyond the call of duty to ask every wow jazz
Luminaria for their for their advice.

Speaker 7 (07:19):
Yeah, it was fun doing that, was doing some meetings.
The first one Herbie was that I was probably the
only one in the room that you know, might have
a difference in opinion, you know, with Herbie and be
able to actually say it right, you know what I mean,
because everybody gets scared. So yeah, wow, here's my biggest mentor. Yeah.

(07:42):
So anyway, we.

Speaker 5 (07:43):
Just had him on the show shorter.

Speaker 7 (07:46):
Oh yeah cool.

Speaker 3 (07:48):
I'm going to say I was shocked at the amount
of feedback we got for that particular episode, like a
lot of heavy jazz heads hit us because kind of
thank you just for asking questions that we nor like
aren't normally asked, you know, and other.

Speaker 5 (08:06):
Yeah, just letting him talk, That's what we did.

Speaker 4 (08:08):
We let him talk exactly.

Speaker 7 (08:10):
That's the right thing.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
So I'm gonna start with you, Terry, the way I
always start the episode. Can you tell me what your
first musical memory was?

Speaker 7 (08:19):
Wow, you know, they happened so long ago that it's
kind of like a movie that I'm a part of
that I watched and it feels real because I watched it.
But was I really there, you know what I mean?
Like I played tambourine when I was five years old
on stage with Ross and Roland Kirk, and that was
probably the first time I was on stage.

Speaker 4 (08:40):
How many saxophones did he play?

Speaker 7 (08:43):
Always at least three until he had a stroke, and
then I'll see him after that, and then he played
with one hand, one of the saxophone, but he might
have even worked too with the one hand, right, No, any.

Speaker 4 (08:55):
Of that's surreal to you. I mean, I'm with the movie.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
Those kids that I see, especially kids that are I
guess you could say progeny of like other I know
that your father and your grandfather were musicians as well,
so oftentimes you know, at least there's a realization moment
of what you're really into, but that usually comes in
your teens. But in the beginning, it's just like, Hey,

(09:20):
this dad and this granddad and here's some musicians around
the house. Like, but anything strike you odd about this?
You know this this guy with dread or I don't
know if he had dread locks back then, but playing
three saxophones at the same time, Like, nothing seemed odd
about that to you.

Speaker 7 (09:39):
Yeah, but you know, when you're young, you don't really
pay attention to all that, like you're just doing you
And I was having fun so and I was getting attention,
So I knew I was different from the other, you know,
elementary school kids that I was hanging out with, because
Ebony came to school to take pictures of me. You know,
I was a flex.

Speaker 4 (10:01):
After that.

Speaker 7 (10:03):
Yeah, well, I mean from the black kids. You know,
there might have been I don't know, six or seven
in my class, so of course they knew what was happening.
The other kids, I'm not sure they knew what evan
it was.

Speaker 4 (10:15):
But where did you grow up? Where were you born?

Speaker 7 (10:17):
In Medford, Massachusetts?

Speaker 3 (10:20):
How far is that from Boston to anyone outside of
New England, like Massachusetts, just like Boston, and then a
bunch of suburbs areas.

Speaker 5 (10:31):
Where New Addition is from.

Speaker 3 (10:32):
Yeah, Roxbury, whoa, Oh damn, you grew up in Roxburgh.

Speaker 7 (10:37):
Oh hell no, okay, you go to Roxburgh and my
dad would remind me, you know, you're from West Medford,
but our area of town, West Medford was the most
heavily settled black area outside of Boston. So like, for instance,
in my high school's four thousand people in high school,

(11:02):
close to four thousand, and at a time when I
was in high school, there were three hundred and sixty
five black kids, which is not quite even ten percent.
But when we had lunch, you know, I'm sitting with
two hundred black kids, So it felt like it was,
you know, it was a black environment.

Speaker 4 (11:18):
You know, for our circle, it was Boston, the south
of the North.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
Again, like I'm so triggered by anything to do with Massachusetts,
I just naturally think that Massachusetts is just one of
these states that escaped you know, the Confederate you know,
just based on what we've learned about it. But like
in your childhood, was it like that at all?

Speaker 7 (11:43):
Or I mean I came like right after the busing situation,
and there was like a bit of a riot at
my high school about you know, surrounded by some kind
of race or about some kind of racial incident. But
I haven't right before I got to high school, and
I mean, you know, I was going into Boston weekly.

(12:05):
At least. I got a scholarship to Berkeley when I
was eleven, and I was going weekly.

Speaker 3 (12:12):
I got to say, you went to Berkeley while still
in in junior high school?

Speaker 4 (12:18):
Correct, So I.

Speaker 7 (12:20):
Was elementary when I started, but that I went once
a week. So it wasn't like that big deal. You know,
I went after school once a week and took private
lessons and ensemble deal special. But what I mean is
it wasn't like stressful.

Speaker 4 (12:39):
Berkeley reject that's a big deal.

Speaker 7 (12:41):
Well that's their loss, right.

Speaker 4 (12:44):
Damn right. I'm not bitter at all.

Speaker 7 (12:48):
But what I'm gonna say though, is, you know, Boston is,
in a weird way, is kind of the most liberal
and conservative places you'll ever be. It's a total, you know,
dichotomy of these things. And everybody hates the Celtics and
all that, but you know, nobody ever talks about how
we had the first black coach and one of the

(13:08):
first black players. Hmm.

Speaker 5 (13:11):
I never thought that about the Celtics for real.

Speaker 7 (13:14):
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just saying, like, there's a lot
of things wrong racially with what's happened here, but you know,
there's it's it's not all bad. And there were, you know,
places like where I grew up, I had heavily populated
black areas, and it was very you know, rich in culture.

Speaker 3 (13:34):
All right, So if ever the Patriots or the Celtics
went again, I'll add you to my new edition file. Like, Okay, well,
at least you seven are happy.

Speaker 5 (13:44):
So universal health care? Mayor Massachusetts did that first too?
Remember free health care?

Speaker 7 (13:51):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (13:51):
Yep.

Speaker 7 (13:52):
I mean, you know, if you're from a place, there's
got to be some love, you know, Like I used to.
I used to hate to go to Philadelphia, but you know,
I got happier as I went, you know, so as
I learn more about the city. Really, you know, I
used to not like Chicago, you know whatever. I'm like,
you have these experiences, and it's just as you grow
you have the other experiences that can make a place.

(14:15):
I have some nostalgia at the very least you.

Speaker 4 (14:18):
Didn't like traveling in general or just.

Speaker 7 (14:22):
Yeah, I mean, well I liked it. Now I don't
particularly care for it. I have a love hate relationship
because I am happiest sometimes when I'm just in a
hotel room and can close the shades and no block
everybody out. I know, because I'm not dealing with Oh,
I got to fix this in my house. You know,

(14:43):
I come home and I get stressed. I'm like, oh
my god, I got that paint the house, I need
a new roof, you know, all those things start kicking in.
But when I'm away, I can just I can just
focus on whatever it is I'm doing.

Speaker 6 (14:54):
Can I ask a question, because I just want to know,
you say, from the jump, jazz was in your life
in the sense that like no other you weren't even
as a kid in school, because I mean you said
Berkeley when you were eleven.

Speaker 5 (15:06):
So I'm like, did anything.

Speaker 6 (15:07):
Else ever get into the household, er into your ears
outside of the lot?

Speaker 7 (15:11):
Okay, yeah, I mean I was. I mean I listened
to the radio, and I listened to you know, like
my father started me off listening to what he would
consume more rhythm and blues, which at the time we
were talking about the early seventies. But for him, like
he played in horn sections with James Brown and Ruth
Brown and people like that when he was in college,

(15:31):
and so that's the kind of music he started me
off listening to because he thought I would be able
to relate to that, you know, more than John Coletrain
and Miles Davis. So I was listening to lots of Oregon.
You know lots of blues Jack McDuff, Jimy McGriff, and
you know some rhythmic blues of course, James Brown, Ray

(15:51):
Charles Raytha Franklin. And those are the records, you know,
a lot of the records that I remember, you know,
as a kid.

Speaker 3 (15:58):
Can you tell me the first out that you purchased
with your own money? Not just that around the house,
like oh, let me see what dad's James Brown's altmore
into but like, yeah.

Speaker 7 (16:09):
You know, like I don't know if I purchased it,
but I think I must have asked my parents to
get get it for me, because I'm not sure they
would have. For whatever reason, I was obsessed. And I
remember I had one of those kids it was green too,
one of those kids, uh phonograph players that had a
little speaker built in.

Speaker 4 (16:28):
Right post preschool or whatever, Fisher Price record players. Yeah,
I feel like I know what this record or what
was the record?

Speaker 7 (16:37):
Oh no, it was the Fifth Dimension. It was. I
was obsessed with Aquarius. H yeah, for some reason, the
age of the Aquarius, Like are you one? No no, no,
I'm a leo. Okay, I forget it for that being

(17:00):
the record.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm just saying, no,
it's for being a leo.

Speaker 4 (17:06):
Get extra points if you're in a query for drumming.

Speaker 3 (17:09):
Though, you know, I know that there's a sect of
people whose opinions are like, you know, at least for
ginger pairing, Like there are instruments that it probably deemed
that men should use only as far as masculine or
feminine whatever, like the women on drums really, in my opinion,

(17:32):
like an adjustment pre nineteen eighties. But at all, did
anyone ever discourage you, like, well, why don't you try
the piano or maybe a guitar, violin, yeah, clarinet, Yeah.

Speaker 7 (17:46):
I don't you know, I don't know if anybody really
ever discouraged me. And I was, you know, I was
confident at a young age, so like, I think what
tells us story about that? For me, the best is
when I met Buddy Rich for the first time. I
was ten. I was a guest with Clark Terry nice

(18:07):
to you. Well, that was the thing. Everybody said, stay
away from him, he's in a really bad mood. And
I didn't care, and I went up to him anyway,
And so then somebody stepped in and said, well, let
me introduce you to young Terry. She's a guest with
Clark Terry. And he said, oh, yeah, you better not
be any good. And I just looked at him and said, well,
who's going to stop me?

Speaker 5 (18:25):
Oh?

Speaker 7 (18:29):
And then he said he kind of took a step back,
and then he said, you want to come play with
my band? Oh? You see what I mean? Flax flax? No,
but it well, it wasn't that it was beautiful flax.
Well yeah, because I think it's how you're raised and
I was raised that this is my music.

Speaker 5 (18:49):
Where did that confidence come from? Terry? Like, do you remember,
like did your parents something say to you? Like the
impetus of that, Like, I think.

Speaker 7 (18:56):
It's who you are. And that's why I do so
much gender equity work now because every woman shouldn't have
to be like me. I would go ahead to head
with any man, you know what I mean. And I'm
not intimidated by anyone. I can be I can be shy,
and I can be insecure. Of course, we're all insecure.
If I was playing a gig next to you, I

(19:18):
would be insecure, especially if I had to play groove,
I'd be like, oh man, he's sitting next to me.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
Damn, you're talking about sugar Steve and his engineering skills.

Speaker 7 (19:34):
What I'm just saying, No, I'm serious, And so I'm
just saying that doesn't mean I think you can be
confident and that be a part of your personality, which
doesn't mean there's these other things that you know aren't
there as well. But you shouldn't have to be like
me to make it, you know, and you shouldn't have
to have that kind of personality as a woman to

(19:55):
to have the opportunity or the access or mentorship or apprenticeships.
And so that's you know, when I realized that. That's
when I because I had been looking at women saying, well,
what do you mean just do it? You know, like,
what do you mean just later for them? You know,
like something discourage you, that should give you more impetus
to you know, And then I realized, you know, they
have a nervous breakdowns and shit, you know, like, so

(20:17):
I had to look at it differently.

Speaker 5 (20:19):
Because everybody doesn't have a foundation.

Speaker 6 (20:21):
Because you still had some type of foundation to let
you know that that is the way to think, and
these women didn't have that.

Speaker 7 (20:28):
So and they don't need to. That's the whole thing.
We're all different, you know, we don't have to be.
I was nothing around nothing but men playing, you know,
for a long time, and so I ended up kind
of acting like them, you know, and not be you know,
having a problem being around man all the time. So
I think that, you know, we should celebrate our differences.

(20:50):
And what does a woman's aesthetic sound like in the music?
You know, I think that's the question we should start
to ask.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
I don't think I've ever went public on record with
In high school, I once had a masterclass kind of
session with a well known patriarch of jazz music.

Speaker 4 (21:20):
I guess you could say he was a total dick.

Speaker 3 (21:25):
And you know, that's actually where I was leaning towards it.
Like especially, there's a there's a generation of cats who
were sort of in the game in the fifties and
the sixties and the seventies, who you know, don't mince
words at all, they don't suffer any fools. They're very
blatant and honest or whatever. And this guy just tore

(21:45):
me up, man like everything. I didn't even get on
the set, and he just looked at the loud shirt
I was wearing, look at my hair. It's like, oh, see,
I wouldn't hire you because your hair is just like
a girl's right now, you know, with that with them
snakes in your hair or whatever.

Speaker 4 (21:59):
And like he was just going in and.

Speaker 3 (22:01):
I remember like after that day, that day, I like
distinctively remember like I'm not going the young lion route
because you know, I went to school with Christian McBride
and Joey at Performing Arts High School, and so I
was on that that sort of track every day trying

(22:23):
to keep up with those two and become a young lion, like,
you know, because all those cats in Philly were just
like even in high school, like doing sessions and what
I you know, I had the opposite reaction.

Speaker 4 (22:35):
I actually that kind of like just got in my.

Speaker 3 (22:38):
Head and you know, maybe like a year later, that's
when I decided, Okay, I'm gonna go to the roots
route because you know, he told me that I don't
look like a serious jazz cat, and you know it's
I'm I'm I'm glad you can buy him, right.

Speaker 7 (22:59):
I love to say, where was you? No?

Speaker 4 (23:02):
No this this?

Speaker 3 (23:03):
You know, this guy's a legacy god in the world
of jazz right now, you know, no longer with us.

Speaker 7 (23:10):
But you don't want to you don't want to name
his name.

Speaker 4 (23:13):
You know, hey, dog Ellis Marcellus, I'll just let it out.

Speaker 7 (23:21):
Well, I just mean, you know, he was, you know,
very kind to me. Actually he coached us once.

Speaker 4 (23:28):
But I feel like you're a disarming person.

Speaker 3 (23:30):
I feel like at the age of ten, you were
very disarming with anyone that you met, you know, that
would encourage you.

Speaker 7 (23:37):
Yeah, And I think that that's helped, you know, with
the gender equity work now, because I'll get a lot
of older musicians calling me saying, you know, I guess
I've been an old fart or you know, thanks for
pointing this out. But you know, the bottom line is
he shouldn't have to be that, and people should recognize
what they're doing. And there are a lot of older
musicians that basically bought into this, you know, patriarchy and

(24:01):
brought brought into the hyper masculinity. And what I'm finding
is there's a lot of young musicians from teaching at Berkeley,
a lot of young male musicians that aren't digging the
hyper masculinity. So they actually come to our institute because
some people get it twisted and think that our institute
is for women musicians or non binary musicians. It's a

(24:21):
space that they can come and make mistakes and learn
the music without having their guard up. But we have
about fifty percent young men in our institute as well
because they're rejecting the hyper masculinity in jazz as well.
And I think that we're really seeing a turning point
right now. It's starting to really shift, and I think

(24:44):
that the music needs that for it to live up
to its full potential.

Speaker 6 (24:48):
So let me ask you as a professor, then this
is about the patriarchy, because how do you since it
was an art form built on that, doesn't it come
to a certain point where you're at an impact ask
and explaining and you know, because I feel like we're
in this point too of sometimes either that's what it
was and we're trying to change it, or how do

(25:09):
we make that still legendary even though that was a problem,
Like how do we keep that?

Speaker 7 (25:16):
You know, the patriarchy was patriarchy was never good. It
wasn't good for anybody, right, It's white, white male patriarchy
to be specific. But you know, I think that the
oppressed learned how to oppress without trying. It's just you know,
that's what happens, and I felt I feel like this
was you know, this is just you know, my opinion,

(25:38):
but I feel like jazz was a space for black
men to uh, you know, really feel freedom, right black
men exactly, you know, because I mean, well, you go back.
You know, I've talked to Angela Davis about this and
different people, because when slavery ended, you know, black people
couldn't travel, right, they you couldn't go anywhere. And then

(25:59):
when slavery ended and there was a little bit of freedom,
the first one I think that people took advantage of
was being able to move, you know, being able to
to go to another town and you know, whether you're
playing on the street or in a juke joint or
wherever you could bring your guitar and you could. But
it wasn't safe still for women to do that, okay, okay, okay,

(26:21):
And these places were not places respectable women should women
should be in.

Speaker 6 (26:27):
But they were there enjoying the music though they.

Speaker 7 (26:31):
Yeah, but not all women, you know, brothels and the
music was in these places. So yeah, so it was
that's what the music kind of where it was birthed, right,
So it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't spaces necessarily for
women to discover their artistic uh you know, the discover

(26:56):
that they could actually do this. So they were always
off to the side in the house, in the church wherever,
you know, and of course playing piano. And that's why
I think that's so acceptable. You know, women always play
piano in the house in the church.

Speaker 4 (27:09):
Right.

Speaker 7 (27:10):
So then when women started traveling and getting into you know,
music and the blues, a lot of it was as singers, right,
as vocalist. Then you have like you know, Bessie Smith
and Mamie Smith and you know, some of the first
blues women my Rainy, but they became also like sexualized,

(27:34):
and they had you know, they were entertainers. You know,
it wasn't necessarily as considered serious work. Musicians were doing
the serious. You know. It was like, let's commodify this.
We can commodify this, you know, woman standing up front
singing the blues more than we can commodify the dude
with the guitar kind of singing the blues. So those

(27:56):
blues singers, the women, they sold more records, you know,
but Bessie Smith was selling Yeah. So my point is
it started off like that and you know. Then later,
of course, in the forties, when the war happened, all
the women emerged playing because so many men were gone.
What blows my mind is that when they came back

(28:19):
from the war, it seemed like the women disappeared, you know,
it came back to the you know, those practices, and
none of this really, you know, surprises me. Like when
I look up, I was ignorant to the story of
Liberia and I just kind of found out about that
the return. Yeah yeah. And like when I saw some

(28:41):
footage of all the black people with the top hats
and looking trying to look British and then colonizing basically
the Africans, I'm like, well, why would I expect anything
different in jazz? I mean, you know what I mean,
it's kind of we're in music. You know, it's like
you're oppressed. You just like that, you take that nature, Yeah, exactly,

(29:04):
without even knowing it's wrong sometimes.

Speaker 4 (29:08):
So do you feel like the age.

Speaker 3 (29:12):
Of the abusive, like and where we are now, like
hip hop is is changing where you know, there's a
sort of like a slow seed change of a lot
of toxic attitudes that were long associated with hip hop.

(29:35):
You know, we're now just starting to see the seeds
of it growing, and you know, I will will assume
that if it's still a thing in the fifties and sixties,
twenty fifties, twenty sixty, that we'll see a total turnaround.
But like kind of the the age of the abusive
actor and Whiplash.

Speaker 4 (29:54):
Oh whipla J K.

Speaker 3 (29:55):
Simmons, How abusive he was?

Speaker 4 (30:00):
Whiplash? When you see Matt it was? Was that to you?
Was it triggering?

Speaker 7 (30:06):
Yeah? I didn't see Whiplash, you know what.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
Everyone when Whiplash came out, Literally everyone asked me about it.

Speaker 7 (30:14):
People one about the drummer too, right, the one that
was lost his hearing. I didn't see that was the
one with your boy.

Speaker 4 (30:23):
Uh about to say Freddie Mercury.

Speaker 7 (30:25):
Uh, yeah, but I saw that.

Speaker 4 (30:29):
The sound of metal that's the name of that movie,
is amazing. That is great.

Speaker 7 (30:32):
Yeah. I have so many thoughts, you know about that,
But the first one that just came to my mind is, damn,
how do I say this politically correct? I just mean, like,
you know, I'm not so attracted to uh, you know,
white dude suffering from some drum lessons. It just feels

(30:54):
a little like.

Speaker 4 (30:55):
This god damn from the book of.

Speaker 7 (31:01):
Trauma by Trauma. I just mean, like, yeah, you know,
so like for me, like there's a lot more suffering
that I'm gonna focus on if I spend any part
of my days dealing with that. I'm glad they made
a movie and the drums are in it and that
people liked it. But you know, he could walk away
probably a lot easier than you know, somebody else. And

(31:22):
he actually, if you know, historically he has all the
tools to you know, fight back a little more than
some of us. So I don't know, but anyway, uh,
just as far as that whole method of teaching, I mean, yeah,
this this of course, like I had like a well
known drummer who's passed away and who was my teacher,

(31:45):
and he threw a book at me once. But he said,
you know, he was frustrated with his career and he
quit teaching right after that. He was teaching at Berkeley,
and he said, you're playing my ship. You're not supposed
to play my ship.

Speaker 5 (31:58):
And then he that, yeah, you know, because I was
just thinking that's got to be something for.

Speaker 7 (32:04):
All these Yeah, I mean it's okay because I saw
him and we you know, I had a beautiful time
hanging out before, you know, shortly before he passed and
he was living in Europe and it was Keith Copeland.
Uh you know, so it's like I didn't even I
loved him, and I felt like he loved me, and

(32:27):
I never I think my parents were a little more
upset about it than me, you know, because I just
I shrugged it off, you know, that was I think
that's been my way. And that's another thing I just
wanted to point out, since we're talking about it, everything
that's happened, like anything negative, I've had to shrug it off.
For me, I had to just act like it didn't happen,
to keep moving and you know, beating in my brain

(32:49):
double that's not gonna stop me, you know what I mean. Like,
and so then you look back and it's hard, you know,
you start thinking, like when I started playing with Esperanza
and Jerry Allen, they started talking about, oh, this feels good,
like this is a space where man, I can let
my hair down. I don't have you know, I'm not
what's the word. Uh, you know, there's a like a

(33:11):
protective layer face armor. Well, I was trying to think
of how es Browns will put it, and she just
started talking about an armor that she was able to
let go of, and then Jerry was agreeing, and I
was only once sitting there saying hmmm, like really, oh okay, cool, Well,
whatever works for you. It took me years after that
to understand, oh, I have those issues too, but I

(33:35):
just sweep him under the rug so well that I
don't deal with it because it's just it's not useful
to me.

Speaker 5 (33:42):
I thought you were like the most free individual I
ever met.

Speaker 4 (33:45):
Yeah, I was about to say, this is very unusual.

Speaker 7 (33:47):
Yeah, what do you mean.

Speaker 3 (33:49):
No, I'm just saying, so many people plant seeds, and
you know, they plant seeds of doubt in your head
and you live with it. And I just love the
fact that that wasn't even like you just duct it
like a boxer.

Speaker 5 (34:02):
But it goes somewhere, exactly, It goes somewhere. And that's
what she's saying. That's why I know.

Speaker 6 (34:06):
That's why I take back what I said, because I'm like, oh,
she puts it somewhere.

Speaker 5 (34:10):
It ain't.

Speaker 7 (34:10):
Yeah, well, I mean I wasn't conscious of it though,
because you know, you know what I'm saying, and so
that's just a layer. That is the way I see it.
It's just hard enough to learn how to play music,
any kind of music, but jazz. I mean, it's really
fucking hard, right, So who wants that extra burden? Who
wants that extra layer of Oh? And I have to

(34:32):
deal with this, you know, like somebody hit on you know,
I don't. I don't get hit on a whole lot,
you know, without wanting to. But you know, if a
band leader hit on me in the middle of a
rehearsal or you know, I would just be like, oh man, really, well,
you know, fantasies are good, Let's go back to playing,
you know whatever. And I never thought for one minute

(34:55):
I'm thinking of somebody, and I'll say it, it was
Stan Getz. And I never thought for a minute that
it meant that I would lose the gig. And then
when I start talking to these young people, all of
that is going through their brain.

Speaker 5 (35:09):
Yes, yes, all of us going through their brain. And
they're not standing for it.

Speaker 7 (35:14):
Well no, but now, but I'm talking about five ten
years ago.

Speaker 5 (35:18):
You know, we just had to suck it out.

Speaker 7 (35:19):
You just suck you just yeah, you just they were wondering, well,
what do I do like you know, am I going
to lose the gig or you know how? And they
start thinking I realized, Wow, that never crossed my mind.
I told him, you know how to let's go with rehearse,
you know, and it never crossed my mind that he
would hold it against me.

Speaker 6 (35:37):
So that means technically, you've never been disappointed by your
heroes in that way.

Speaker 7 (35:42):
Oh maybe not in that way, you know, not. I mean,
you know, I'm sorry, I just had a flashback. But
even that, you know, like if somebody, you know, you
you know, somebody's over your house, you come out and
they're like sitting there naked or something, you know, even
that would make me laugh, you know.

Speaker 5 (36:01):
I know, it depends on the legend. It could be
real sad though Terry. It could be like, damn, come
on man.

Speaker 7 (36:12):
Yeah, but you know, there's a lot of love and
I think that black women have historically taken in consideration
all these things. And I'm like, as long as I
don't feel like, you know, you're about to physically harm me,
then I'm not really worried about it, you know. But

(36:34):
what I'm what I keep trying to say is you
shouldn't have to be that way. She shouldn't have to
go through the extra burden, and that's what I will
then take somebody down for. So I have to talk
myself off a ledge now all the time. But that's
for other people. For some of my students, I'm like,
they say what and I'm like, trying to go to
the runt of the school and beat somebody down. I'm like, Okay,

(36:55):
we can't do that, right, you know, I got to, like,
now try to intelligently talk to this person or use language.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
Yeah, you know, Terry, I always wanted to know, simply
because I'm I'm I'm so drenched in hip hop.

Speaker 4 (37:12):
I have to be a shape shifter.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
In other words, any track I hear, my first question
I'm asking is how would DJ Premier program this, or
how would see FERRONI drum on this?

Speaker 4 (37:28):
Or how would Tony Williams play this or whatever?

Speaker 3 (37:33):
So oftentimes, you know, I'm shape shifting kind of in
the name of being a human sampler. But when you're
starting to drum, who is the who's the drummer? Who
sound that you were most attracted to when you first
started based on you know, you left Arcinio a thing

(37:55):
in eighty nine, so based on your simple work. Always
thought that Tony Williams might have been in your North Star.
But you know, for you, who were your three gods
of drumming that you had in your mind when you
were drumming.

Speaker 7 (38:10):
Well, at the end of the day, it became well,
let me see, when I was eighteen seventeen, it was
Jack de Jeannette and he became my biggest mentor. I
purposely stayed away from trying to mimic Tony Williams and
Elsen Jones to a degree too, because their styles are

(38:32):
so individual that if I hear somebody playing like them,
it sounds like a caricature of them more than anybody else,
I think, because their styles are so strong.

Speaker 3 (38:42):
So even when you're playing with Herbie or Wayne or Combo,
it's the temptation to not.

Speaker 4 (38:50):
Go there doesn't hit you at all, no.

Speaker 7 (38:53):
It Unfortunately, when I played with Herbie, especially in the
earlier years, well see the thing is, you know I
played in six or seven different bands of Herbie's, so
you know he's supporting, yeah, exactly. So it was the first,
the first long, you know, term gig I had with him.
We were supporting this is the drum, and then I
had to play these grooves like with uh, with computers,

(39:16):
you know, which I had never done. Uh, and then uh,
you know, Trio Quartet and then Gersha was well just
those were more acoustic. But then the The Future of
the Future, which you know, was more It had you know,
some hybrid hip hop stuff in there as well, but
it was all, you know, mostly grooves. So when I

(39:39):
was playing straight ahead in the beginning, yeah, Tony Williams
would creep out because I realized whenever I heard Herbie
from all the records, it was mostly Tony playing with him.
So that is the sound, you know, my spirit related
to Hervey, which was interesting because he told me that
Jack Deson it was his favorite drummer and that's like

(40:00):
my guy, yeah yeah, back then, yeah, and that's my guys.

Speaker 4 (40:03):
So Tony.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
So Jackie's net was Tony's sort of north starts as
far as.

Speaker 7 (40:08):
No, no, no, I'm saying, Herbie told me. Herbie said that
that Jack was his favorite dramma overt. Yeah, that's what
he told me. Wow, okay to play with this is
you know, after you know, many years after that, plastic
Miles David Quintest so he if you notice, I mean,
he hired Jack on you know, some of his records.
But anyway, so I thought, oh, this that's my guy.

(40:30):
So I'm good. You know, that's great, that's who. That's
my north star. But then once I started playing all this,
Tony snuck in, you know, which is interesting just because
having heard him with Herbie all those years.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
What is because a lot of the Jack stuff that
I heard was more like fusing, like his seventies fusion
work or whatever. How like for me, Tony is so
heavy on symbol work that you automatically and his ability
to stop time and just you know, for listeners today
that you know, I guess you can say that sort

(41:07):
of the way that Chris Dave's relationship with time, where
you know, it doesn't exist in his world but it exists,
but it doesn't exist. Tony was sort of you know
that way straight ahead. But what do you think that
Jack's trademark.

Speaker 7 (41:22):
Was, Well, I think I disagree a little bit about
Tony in the time existing and not existing because I
feel like, you know, Tony's beat was pretty, it was beautiful.
It was so beautiful his time feel.

Speaker 4 (41:41):
Oh no, he would say on rhythm, but do all
these counter rhythms that.

Speaker 7 (41:45):
Yeah, But that's to me mathematics, you know what I mean,
Like the counter rhythms, it's polyrhythms. There's things that work
within the structure of a beat. And so what attracted
me to Jack was the opposite of that, you know,
of the time being elastic and like hear him on
this all it's slinky like a snake. You know, it's

(42:09):
in his touch. You know, I can tell Jack within
a second of hearing him, you know, on any recording,
because it's his touch. Any great drummer, you're right, it's
the rise symbol. You know, any great jazz drummer, their
their identity lives in their rise symbol. Now, some people
like Tony, like a lot of great drummers like Tony,

(42:30):
like Art Blakey, Max Rusch. Also part of their identity
is what they've you know, developed soloing, so their their licks.
There are things that are signature, right, So there are
signature licks that you can say that Art Blakey, or
Tony Williams or Philly Joe Jones. But with Jack it's

(42:50):
not really signature licks. There's no licks. It's like it's
all more organic and the same thing. All my favorite drummers,
Roy Haynes. It all begins and ends with Roy Haynes.
He's the hippos. Jaz I was, I was so glad.

Speaker 6 (43:01):
She said that, Oh God, my dad would be so glad.
She said that, I just want to say this real quick.
I'm sorry, I mean to interrupt y'all, but for some
of us, eighty nine is when you ended our Senio.
It's a whole generation of other folks that go from
my father who go little Terry that was Rory Haynes's
protag and all that. So it was just for me,
I'm continue on Terry Ipoplois.

Speaker 7 (43:19):
Yeah, no, it's beautiful, you know, just a sidebar. His
son sent me a video last night of his granddaughter daughter,
which would be Roy's great granddaughter. They had been asking
if she had been asking for sticks, and he finally
about this little kid. She's three little kids set and
sticks and it was the first time you ever held
a pair of sticks. And she was like and she

(43:41):
ended and flipped the sticks and put him under her arm.
He was like, you're the first person I'm sending.

Speaker 4 (43:47):
This to for our listeners that don't know. Roy Haynes
is probably.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
The the elder statesman. I think between him Roy is
ninety seven or ninety eight, still playing, still playing like
forty something. Yes, that's crazy, like it's nothing, you know,
and you know and and with and his son Graham
and and whatever like literally.

Speaker 6 (44:16):
Yes, just mentioned he taught my dad too. That's why
he's so important to him to geniuses.

Speaker 7 (44:23):
Who's your dad?

Speaker 6 (44:24):
His name is Ron Saint Clair. But my dad had
a nephew that he taught named Dennis Davis.

Speaker 7 (44:28):
So we're just a fan. Yes, yeah, dunnis to play
with Stevie.

Speaker 4 (44:33):
Yes self slaying me. Were you part of the in
bass circle?

Speaker 7 (44:42):
Yeah? I was there when Steve named it, like he said,
I came up with this thing, you know, macro dash
basic array of structural extis. I was like, good luck,
let's see if that's going anyway.

Speaker 4 (44:54):
I did I know BASE was an acronym.

Speaker 7 (44:57):
What is it for macro ah Basic array of structural
extemporizations deep? But yeah, we have a We did a
record which I think was really the beginning of M
BASE that never came out. It was for Gramma Vision.

(45:18):
It was Graham, the horn section was Graham, greg osby
Steve and h Whoman missed and it was four Robin
You Banks and then the rhythm section was Vernon Reed,
Jerry Allen, Me and Kevin Harris. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
Oh man, you just opened up a door because I
had a manager who was one of the top jazz
DJs at Temple RTI in Philadelphia, and you know, in
his mind, like m base was the future, which is
the reason why like a lot of MBASE, including like

(45:54):
Cassandra and everybody like was on our first view records.
Did you at the time when you're in this movement,
did you feel as though, like, Okay, we are the
new generation, we're the native tongues. We're gonna you know,
push forward. How much pushback at the time from like
jazz traditionalists were you getting?

Speaker 7 (46:13):
H Well, you know when that started, Like I moved
shortly thereafter to La to do the Arsenial Hall. So
actually I was moving anyway, and then I got the show,
and that just made my move have to happen. In
a week, I was out there looking for apartments. I
was staying with Patris Russian.

Speaker 3 (46:30):
And what was the aficial process, Like, you just dropped
a lot in that one sentence.

Speaker 5 (46:35):
You sure did. He has another former guest of Quest
left Spree.

Speaker 7 (46:40):
Yes, yeah, yeah, So I was playing with Wayne Shorter
at the time, so, and Diane Reeves was my best friend.
She lived in LA. I met her at that same
time when I clarke Terry. So she was nineteen and
I was ten. We were both guessed with Clark that
time when I told you about the Buddy Rich store.
So when I went to LA and you know, with
hers with Wayne we went to Japan, I would just

(47:01):
stop in LA and stay for a while and stay
with Diane and then in Patrise and Patrise she was
on joy Rider, you know, with us. So it was
around that time, and so the three of them convinced
me to move to LA. So this was the end
of eighty eight. So I went right around Thanksgiving to

(47:22):
LA and looked for an apartment. And then somehow it
was Nary, Michael Walden and Patrise maybe one other person
that recommended me for the Arsenio Hall show. And so
I went in and I just played a couple of
tunes with them and I got the gig. But they
were like, you got to be back here next week
we start taping, you know, we start next week the
day after New Year's Uh. So I had a week

(47:44):
to go home and pack up in Fort Green and
it was to Glendale, California. But yeah, I stayed with
Patrise while I was looking. So the audition process wasn't
very I don't even know how many drummers they had
they had audition.

Speaker 4 (48:01):
Uh Sanders, okay, keep play funk, play jazz.

Speaker 7 (48:05):
Yeah, and you know, Michael Wolf was there. It wasn't
it wasn't any heavy funk, you know what I mean.
It wasn't any Yeah, but it was a good, great experience,
you know, and I feel like it set me up,
you know, more for doing the Vibe TV show with
great filling games, and that was you know more more
of of a band that could play with anybody. So

(48:26):
like we played with James Brown, we played with Aliyah,
we played with Destiny's Child, we played with uh, I
don't know, Rick, James, we played with you know, just
a lot of It was an amazing experience playing with
all those people, whereas the first one we didn't really
play with that many people that came on. But you
were saying something else I fell down. Uh. So what

(48:51):
happened was they were moving on. And when I look
back and like when that record we made, everybody had
to bring in a song, and Steve had made this
like kind of criteria for the music of it not
being straight ahead and having you know, rhythms or grooves
kind of from more modern because he was into James Brown,

(49:13):
but you know, more modern grooves but with harmony and
stuff moving like jazz but not necessarily in the traditional
kind of two five to one way, and things that
weren't in that kind of form, like no aaba forms
and that kind of thing. Right, So what I wrote
was more poppish, so to say, and if you if

(49:36):
you would listen to it, like my song was the
outlier on the record because I listened to everything he said,
and I did everything literally in these little sections odd
time signatures or whatever. But it really pointed to something
more commercial, so to say, than they're writing and you know,
I know so many it was like a potpourria music,

(49:58):
which was probably good that the record never came out.
But so I didn't feel so connected. I feel like
I was there in the beginning, but I wasn't super connected,
and I was playing with Wayne and I was really
just trying to do that gig because I hadn't really
played a fusion gig, like when I auditioned for Wayne.
It was fourteen drummers, and you know, I got the

(50:19):
gig somehow, and that was my first real foray into
just you know, playing group stuff. But I had been listening,
of course, to Weather Report and all of that, and
you know, coming up, I mean Arsen when the Fire
was my favorite band. You had asked earlier if I
was listening to all this other music. I mean, I
remember the first place I was when I heard Go

(50:40):
Go at a party.

Speaker 5 (50:41):
Excuse me, where'd you hear Go Go? At a party
in West Medford?

Speaker 7 (50:45):
In Medford?

Speaker 6 (50:46):
Well, I said there was a black community. See it's not,
but it's so go Go is so localized. That's why
I'm like it made it up there.

Speaker 7 (50:52):
Okay, yeah, of course, yeah chuck frown. And then I
remember the first time, you know, I was at another
one of those parties. You know, I heard rappers delight.
You know, it was my first introduction to hip hop.
I didn't know what was happening before that, but yeah,
you know, so like I was listening to all of
that stuff coming up, and you know, just as a sidebar,

(51:13):
I was in B Street, so I feel like I was.

Speaker 4 (51:16):
Actually stop, stop, come back.

Speaker 1 (51:21):
You did know that no, yeah.

Speaker 7 (51:24):
I'll say to a little clip. It was just like
a quick cameo.

Speaker 4 (51:28):
But wait when they were doing the ballet thing on stage. Yep.

Speaker 7 (51:33):
Yeah, but I was brought in from Medford, Massachusetts by
Harry Belafonto to play like this little drum fill.

Speaker 5 (51:40):
I'm sorry these sentences are so compound that you give.

Speaker 7 (51:45):
My hair.

Speaker 5 (51:45):
Belafonte for the Beach Street came.

Speaker 7 (51:49):
Because, yeah, because he was the producer of Beach Street
and was playing in his band. So I had made
an album that's actually gonna come out forty years now
with Kenny Baron, Bussell Williams and George Coleman, and I
was I was sixteen at a time, so we had
just done it. So at this point now I'm seventeen

(52:10):
and uh, Diane came to Boston with Harry. So I
hadn't seen her since this Witchita vessel when I was ten.
So we had a big reunion and she I gave
her this tape of my album. It was a green
cassette tap and she gave it to Harry and then
out of the blue, he just called and we thought
it was a joke. You know, there's a couple of

(52:32):
people that called. We thought it was a joke. Benny
Goodman call once too. We definitely thought that was a joker.
It was, and them like yeah with Harry though.

Speaker 6 (52:41):
Yeah, we were coming from you are making the wrong
movies around the wrong people.

Speaker 5 (52:46):
I'm like, when is this movie?

Speaker 3 (52:49):
Literally I'm literally okay, I'm watching the scene right now.

Speaker 4 (52:54):
I'm sorry, I had to pull it up with my monitor.

Speaker 7 (52:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (52:57):
No, I was talking about Terry lynk care into movie
about her life because it's r never in my whole
there's never been, never never.

Speaker 7 (53:06):
It's just it's funny. It's yeah. Yeah, So I feel like,
you know, like some weird in some weird way, that
was you know, that was the word I'm looking for it.
I was kind of predicting. You know, I've always felt
connected to all the genres. You I've always been a
bit of a bridge, you know, with all the genres

(53:26):
because I mean, I'm a jazz head, of course, but
I mean I went through many years when I lived
in La saying, don't call me a jazz musician. You know,
I'm just a musician. Then you know, I had to
come back, you know, like my dad was like, you
can't run away from who you are.

Speaker 5 (53:40):
And also you stay collaborating with folks.

Speaker 6 (53:43):
So I'm like, I know you still got your ear
to the streets because you know, you still got folks
like Rhapsody on Records and whatnot.

Speaker 7 (53:48):
So yeah, I'm doing an R now for a Candid
which is an old label that John Burke and the
team that he's with, Acceleration Music. They're by labels. They
bought Alligator Records. They about Candidate about a hip hop
label too. So I'm doing it, you know. So it's
a dream that I always wanted. I always wanted to do.
I read hit Man back in the day and I

(54:09):
wanted to do an R. And one day I was
walking and I said, well that's.

Speaker 4 (54:13):
When you know you've read hip Man and then still
wanted to be in the industry.

Speaker 7 (54:17):
Oh yeah, that was what I wanted to do.

Speaker 4 (54:21):
Light to be like, nah, don't don't come here.

Speaker 7 (54:26):
I wanted to you know, I wanted to be Clive Davis.
I wanted to be you know, like and so I
felt like, you know, there was only two black women
you know that we're doing. We're doing that right, Suzanda
Pass and Sylvia Rome. Yeah, so when people ask me
about glass ceilings, that's what I say as a producer,
as an R person, those are the places I felt

(54:47):
more of a glass ceiling and playing the drums.

Speaker 6 (54:50):
Necessarily, like you ain't got the ears?

Speaker 7 (54:57):
Yeah, like like I've mean or like I'm in some
little jazz box over here that you know, because I'm
like all of those people were attorneys. They don't have
no years on me.

Speaker 6 (55:09):
So what are you an r and for right now? Specifically?
Like what do you what?

Speaker 7 (55:13):
You Well, the idea with Candida, and it's all relatively new,
but is to try to find people that are really
merging jazz with hip hop.

Speaker 5 (55:23):
And that's fun assignment, yeah.

Speaker 7 (55:26):
Exactly, but just it's a catalog label too, and we're
not going to say no to certain cool records. So
the first record that I got done happened to be
a live record with Wayne Shorter, Esperanza and myself, and
so that's gonna be coming out in September, I think.
And then I have a new record that would be
coming out on it too. And then the other person

(55:49):
I signed was Morgan Garn who's been playing in my band.
But he's like a program, dude. It's not necessarily hip hop,
but it's like I don't know, it's kind of like
if you took Wayne Shorter and had him like today
and programming and using you know, all of the right
things that are available today.

Speaker 3 (56:09):
You know, So I have so many questions. But since
we're just going all over the place as a professor,
coming full circle now back to Berkeley.

Speaker 4 (56:19):
Do you find yourself in a position?

Speaker 3 (56:20):
So the year that I left NYU, I did n
YU for like four or five years, and my last
year I kind of had an O ship moment when
I realized that my students knew more than I did.
You know, we were talking about I think my last class,
I believe we taught about Thriller, and they had a
lot of synth questions like synth choice questions that I

(56:45):
had to do extra homework, and I realized, like, yo,
these kids are smarter and shit like, they know more
than I do as a professor, especially with where music
is going. And now I don't know specifically the class
that you're teaching at Berkeley, but you know, there's so
many levels of musicianship as far as like gospel chop
musicians and broken beat musicians. I guess now there's lo

(57:09):
fi kind of that genre of music or whatever in
your mind, not do you feel as if you have
something to contribute, but do you sometimes feel like a
stranger in a strange land With the way that musicianship
is approached now. For instance, I have a member in
my group right now who we don't know exactly how

(57:30):
to describe what Stroe Elliott does where he plays a
drum machine as if he is Taikowski, or like a
piano player where he's playing samples and whatnot. So with
this whole new generation of musicians there, like what is
teaching a student at Berkeley in twenty twenty two henceforth,

(57:53):
when it seems that now is the time when the
rules are being just washed away and new rules are
coming in.

Speaker 7 (58:00):
Well, I mean that's really interesting because that taps on
a few things for me. I try to stay around
young musicians. I mean, everybody in my band is younger
than me, and people that wrote in a different way
than than I do. And I'm talking about the Social
Science band. So if you if you heard that record,

(58:20):
I think it definitely pointed to something different than I
would have been able to do on my own, you know,
because of the writing and uh and the players you know,
like Morgan and uh, and you know Matt and the
ideas of mixing other genres, like you know, somebody like
Matt Stevens mixes more indie rock, Aaron Parks is you know,

(58:43):
like leads into classical composers. You know, Morgan's into you know,
more of the kind of new school jazz. Uh. And
then I had Casa Overall, who is not really with
us any more. Kokaia's doing it, but Cosa uh, you
know is definitely kind of into more cocaine, yeah, jazz
me hip hop. So that I did was for me

(59:06):
to recognize kind of like you know, Prince did, right,
And Uh, that's my favorite part about Purple Rain is
that Prince was like finally like, oh, like, you know,
I need to in order for me to remain relevant,
I have to let Wendy and Lisa write, you know.
So for me that was kind of like my reckoning
with I'm gonna do much better, you know, with this

(59:30):
kind of collective. So I feel like I've always tried
to keep my ear and my spirit to what's happening now,
even though I can't do it like you know, like
they do. You know, I never had gospel chops or
something that I just never did it, never went to church,
never you know, played in church, and never developed that

(59:52):
kind of technique. And I don't really hear the drums
like that. But I can't see how, you know, listening
to this younger generation, how it has influenced me to
some degree, you know. And so as far as the
stranger strange land, I don't really feel that. I feel
like I'm constantly being fed, you know, and it kind

(01:00:15):
of you know, in the end, you know, comes up
my way, and I still feel like I can comment,
you know, on what they're doing.

Speaker 4 (01:00:21):
So you're still at Berkeley.

Speaker 7 (01:00:24):
Yeah, absolutely, I'm always a student, always a student. But
you know, what that also taps on, though, is how
jazz education has screwed up jazz because what I'm dealing
with mostly are people that come out of jazz programs.
And now the people in the jazz programs are mostly affluent,

(01:00:44):
you know, from certain cities. So I don't know, like
it's all over really, but people that had programs in
school and jazz was kind of more street music, you know,
I mean it was from the people and their experience
academia exactly. So the academia they started, you know, they
were able to codify it in a way and then uh,

(01:01:06):
you know, uh, what's the word make money from it?
Monetizer monetize, But there was another word modify, commodify. Yeah, yeah,
And I feel like now to get into a school,
you have to be on this certain level and have
gone through this system, which is you know, is still

(01:01:28):
dealing with you know, it's yes, it's prohibitive for a
lot of people. Yeah, there's a racist, sexist system.

Speaker 5 (01:01:36):
You know, so income based what else?

Speaker 7 (01:01:39):
What I mean, that's why it's racist. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
There's a certain side of musicianship that I'm seeing now
with younger people in which they're able to do whatever,
fly to the bumblebee levels of speed and and literally
just packing everything in the first one minute, whereas where
I tell them to do something like my dad had

(01:02:09):
a trick where he would make musicians just play a ballot,
play something very simple, and man, they will all fall apart,
one by one.

Speaker 4 (01:02:17):
They would just like fall this like if.

Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
You ask them to play tea for two or chopsticks,
it was like asking them to play rights to Spring.
So as as a teacher, do you find it that
more students are now in this We're in an era
now where like your Instagram stories is fifteen seconds, like
your TikTok is thirty seconds, Like you got to have

(01:02:40):
all the impact of an entire performance in thirty seconds
with you know, they don't believe that much in space
or quietness anymore, like have is there such a thing
as a drummer who just plays straight ahead and gives
what's required?

Speaker 4 (01:02:57):
Or are you dealing with like.

Speaker 3 (01:03:01):
More gospel chops people that have to like have bells
and whistles and firing, eating and everything.

Speaker 7 (01:03:07):
Yeah, I love it. Time field is the most important
thing period right for a drummer, Like if you don't
have a time field it feels good, then nothing else
really matters, no matter what the genre, you know, and
then it needs to be you know, I'm into playing
free these days. You know, it's just kind of where
my head is. But there's time in that, you know,

(01:03:29):
it's not it's not like free means absolutely no time.
And I think the people that play free the best
of once they have good rhythm. But as far as
the students are concerned, I don't teach drums anymore. I
haven't done that in probably like six years or so.
I just have ensembles and right now, I'm the artistic

(01:03:51):
director of an institute, but I do have two ensembles
in that institute, and so I'm just dealing with the
overall sound of the of the group more than individuals.
But it's the same thing with all the instruments.

Speaker 3 (01:04:07):
What you're saying, is that hard to convey now to
a generation that feels like to me, all Star games
are the most boringest games ever in basketball because you know,
gonna try to show off, whereas a Golden State Warriors
in Boston. Sorry, by the way, you know, it's literally

(01:04:30):
about teammate and you putting in your twenty percent and
him putting in his twenty percent and doing one hundred percent?
Is that harder to convey on students now? As far
as ensemble is concerned, well, I.

Speaker 7 (01:04:44):
Mean sometimes I'm actually asking them to play more because
that's the part of me that is like old school
and jazz, like you know, like you gotta like I'm
finding that a lot of them can't play consecutive ace
notes and construct lines that are interesting. You know, they've
gone into this like moved into something else, and I

(01:05:07):
think they're using too much space sometimes. Like what you're saying,
I would have thought, like a little bit back in
the day where everybody was just blazing all the time,
and yeah, that's tiring. I get tired of listening after
you know, a minute or two. That's why. That's another
reason why I don't really listen too much or prefer

(01:05:27):
to listen to the gospel chops drumming, because I'm bored
after I you know, it's just I get bored, you know,
because I'm not a geek, a drum geek, you know,
So I don't really care about that. And I think
at the end of the day, that's what your job is,
to make the listener care, right, what is it that?
Why do we even do this? You know? So if

(01:05:49):
you feel like it's to make them groove that they care,
you know, that's a level of care, right. But I
also feel like, you know, kind of coming out of
the way short of in Herbie Hancock book, I think
it's about touching the humanity in them, you know, exploring
what it is that you share in common. So how
do I inspire you? That's my humanity relating to your humanity,

(01:06:12):
and so that's where my head is. And so sometimes
when I'm listening to some of these young musicians. I
can't get past their sound, let alone the notes, you know,
because there's nothing in there sound yet there's no pain,
you know, I don't hear the joy, you know what
I mean. So I try to get them to, you know,
go back to the beginning. Like I remember once being

(01:06:34):
on some I got honored and there was a I
can't remember who it was, but there was a pro
ball player, must have been for the Patriots, and because
it was in a Boston event, and he said, and
I'll never forget this because this is how I feel
too it in music. But he said, you know, he
was all star in college and then when he got
to the Patriots, they said, now let us show you,

(01:06:57):
you know, how to throw the ball or how to
catch the ball. He had to like go back.

Speaker 5 (01:07:01):
He played it a little bit and.

Speaker 7 (01:07:06):
Burn go back to the basics. So for me, that's
the same with sound, you know, like why is it
Dwayne Shorter could play one note and break your heart?
Like it's about what you're projecting, you know. So the
greatest compliments I ever get is when somebody said, damn,
somebody else just played that drum set. But then when

(01:07:27):
you played it, like wow, you know, the sound changed,
and that's when I know that's right, that's what because
it's the sound is your spirit, right, you know what
I mean?

Speaker 3 (01:07:40):
I would say probably the Mosaic project is one of
your most beloved projects. Could you tell me about just
the whole concept of doing that album and and gathering
these uh these women together to do this album and
how it came to fruition.

Speaker 7 (01:07:58):
Yeah, I did gig in Israel. I had a gig
in Israel called Esperanza. It was the first time, well
the second time we played together, and she was still
like she had come out of Berkeley and started teaching
at Berkeley, and that's when I met her her first
year teaching. So I called her and Jerry Allen and
a saxophone player from Hall and Tennka Postma. I realized

(01:08:21):
I called three women for a gig just based on
the way they played. I didn't realize that it was
three women and this was going to be an all
women quartet until after I had, you know, booked them.
So it wasn't anything I was trying to do. I
just wanted to play with the three of them, and
I was like, Okay, this is a big deal for
me because Throughout my whole career, people had asked me, oh,

(01:08:44):
could you do this women's festival? Could he play with
these women? And I was kind of like, you know,
when I look at somebody like Mary L. Williams who
didn't want to play with other women, she said, well,
why would I want to play with them when I'm
playing with the best, you know, And.

Speaker 5 (01:08:57):
I was wondering how you felt about this? Yes, okay, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:09:03):
And so I shot away from it my entire career,
and there was always be somebody like, you know, I
played with Ingrid Jensen or you know, Rennie Robinson, with Wayne,
with Bernard Wright, you know, Rest in Peace, and there
was always a woman here or there, you know, Jerry
Back with Mbase and before that actually, but never all together,

(01:09:27):
you know, And I really shot away from it. So
I did it, and then I said, this is a
moment that I really want to celebrate and shine some
light on. So I started with just the four of them,
and then I just kept adding people and it just
became like twenty one women and that's really just how
it started. And I wasn't really trying to make any

(01:09:48):
kind of political statement other than, oh, there are a
lot of amazing women that play and let me just
put through this record, you know.

Speaker 5 (01:09:57):
So this is how the sisterhood started?

Speaker 6 (01:09:58):
Then, because I want to ask you, is there a
sisterhood in well, I was gonna say jazz. Really, of course,
jazz when it comes to musicians, you know of a
sisterhood that way.

Speaker 7 (01:10:10):
I mean, there is, But there's a lot of women
that are playing jazz that still they think about it.
How do I say, not as much like a sisterhood
because you know, we're affected by the patriarchy too, right,
So women are invested in it. Yeah, they don't want
to play with other women because they feel like it's
a step down. That's something.

Speaker 5 (01:10:30):
But as more greats are coming out of the fold,
how does it be? How is it a step down?
And to play with Terry Well.

Speaker 7 (01:10:37):
That's the well, I mean, that's the point that there's
only going to happen. That's why I started apprenticeship program,
the mentorship program New Music USA, because there's a lot
of mentorship programs, but apprenticeship means you have to put
them on the stage with you. And so we got
a grant of one point two five million dollars to
do this three year program. And we have a these

(01:11:00):
six applicants this first year, and we picked seven and
so like I did pairings and so some of the
mentors are Bob McFerrin and Wayne Shorter and you know,
watch the different people. But some of the apprenticeships are
with Chris Potter, Linda Mayhanou Esmanza, Marcus Miller. He took

(01:11:21):
one Alexis, which is great. She's having a blast playing
with him. So I just feel like, I thought, how
do we get more men to hire women, because if
they don't really do it on their own because they
need to, you know, they don't necessarily know that they
need to contribute to this shift, how do we get them?
So I said, pay them, you know, the.

Speaker 6 (01:11:42):
Men din women, then the women will start hiring women.

Speaker 7 (01:11:47):
You know what I mean is once you know, everybody
has to be invested in gender equity because it's for
the good of everybody. And I just felt like one
way to get people interested is is have an affect
their wallet. If they're getting a free musician and getting
you know a little money on top of that, it
might make it easier. And it's you know, so far

(01:12:10):
kind of work. You know, this is our inaugural year.
But anyway, I think that this last record, though, the
Waiting Game is the one. It's the only one I
can listen to. Let's put it like that. The other
ones is I can't. I can't really listen to a
Waiting Game. I could still listen to. So I think
that's for me my favorite of all the elbows real

(01:12:33):
because I don't cringe when I listen.

Speaker 3 (01:12:35):
So you're still like in your head about like I
could have did that better, We could have did a
big different take.

Speaker 7 (01:12:41):
Or yeah, or just sometimes like Mosaic Projects, the first one,
I mean I like things on the second one too,
but the Mosaic Project, I think that the playing is
good overall. There's like some sound things, like you know,
some production things that really both me. But you know,

(01:13:02):
playing is good overall, but it's a little bit far
away from where I am as a musician. There's a
little bit of my writing that bothers me. You know that,
I'm like, oh man, I could have really developed that
idea much better, and I've improved as a writer since then,
So that's what you know. But overall, I think, you know,
the playing is okay.

Speaker 5 (01:13:22):
Oh so you're writing writing these lyrics on waiting game.

Speaker 4 (01:13:24):
Okay, Well, you've been also singing on all of your records.

Speaker 3 (01:13:27):
That's you've sung on it since your first album, You've sung.

Speaker 7 (01:13:33):
Yeah, except this last one. I didn't, you know, way
to give it, but I wrote all the lyrics, but
I tried to sing a little bit.

Speaker 4 (01:13:42):
Man. You you got to.

Speaker 3 (01:13:44):
I guess bucket list check a project before she died,
maybe like six months before Amy Winehouse died, she was
stalking me daily telling me that her and I were
going to redo Money Jungle and Money Yeah, the Money

(01:14:06):
Money Jungle album from Duke Ellington and Max Wroton and
Charles Minkus, the famous trio record.

Speaker 7 (01:14:14):
What I did that record?

Speaker 4 (01:14:16):
I know? And you wound up pulling it off.

Speaker 3 (01:14:18):
So we were planning me her and most Step and
a few other musicians were going to cover.

Speaker 4 (01:14:23):
The entire album. Oh my god, right.

Speaker 3 (01:14:26):
And she passed away and ah, man, I was just heartbroken.
And then a year and a half or for the
for the fiftieth anniversary, you actually, what made you want
to cover that entire album?

Speaker 4 (01:14:38):
Because when I see it, I was like, wow, what
the hell?

Speaker 3 (01:14:40):
Like it came out? But I wasn't even mad at it.
But what made you want to cover that album?

Speaker 7 (01:14:47):
You know, people ask me that all the time, and
I don't know, it's just it haunted me. I don't
know what made me choose it, other than it just
kind of haunted me. And I started reading all these
Duke Ellington biography books and and I was transcribing, you know,
in the piano, and I realized these are all mostly
blues based songs, probably the easiest stuff that Duke Ellington wrote.

(01:15:12):
And I knew that it was as far as I
could go, you know, like with transcribing Duke Ellington a trio.

Speaker 4 (01:15:18):
Record, you know, and that's the easiest.

Speaker 7 (01:15:21):
Yeah, this, and it wasn't complex, you know, in general.
So uh, I kept flipping like, you know, some of
the songs to the point it didn't sound like it
so even you know, Christian said when he came in
the session, he said, you know, you really could have
just called most of these songs something else, you know,

(01:15:45):
but you know, I just I wanted to make sure
that I wasn't bastardizing, you know, Duke Ellington's music. And
I read enough interviews, like he said, jazz, we stopped
using that that word in nineteen forty seven. He said jazz.
That just means freedom of expression. And so when I
realized that's how he felt, then I felt, okay, you

(01:16:08):
know about changing his music to that degree.

Speaker 4 (01:16:11):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:16:12):
And at this phase of your career, and you pretty
much have done everything. You've You've done scores, you've taught television,
you've done everything. Is there something that you had yet
to embarkle on that you wish to do for this
phase of your career right now?

Speaker 7 (01:16:34):
Oh man, I'm just getting started as far as I can.
I mean, I'm doing I'm doing so much now that
I'm a little pissed that some of these opportunities didn't
come before. I'm, you know, a little tired. I'm fifty six,
I'll be fifty seven and two.

Speaker 5 (01:16:50):
Months on somebody's baby.

Speaker 7 (01:16:54):
Thank so I'm a little tired, you know, and I
wish that I had some of these opportunities earlier. Like
right now, I can tell you a couple of things
really right, really.

Speaker 3 (01:17:07):
Tell you about in the fifties, Like I've been waiting
for this at twenty.

Speaker 4 (01:17:13):
I think it's the time you're at least forty one,
at least thirty nine. Say that again now, because you're
ready for it now. If you got any twenties, you
would have sucked it up.

Speaker 5 (01:17:22):
Hello, well not maybe.

Speaker 4 (01:17:23):
A mirror, Yeah, everybody would.

Speaker 5 (01:17:25):
Everybody he started so early.

Speaker 7 (01:17:27):
So I don't know, I know, but I hear you.
I hear you, I feel you because I feel the
same way. And honestly, I hear what you're saying. We're
wiser and maybe we're doing it better or different, but
I feel like I'm the same person really, you know,
twenty years ago, I would have been going on thirty

(01:17:47):
seven even fifteen years, have more energy, and I feel
like I knew most of the things that I know now.
I just have a little more confidence now because I'm older.
But if I had gotten opportunity, unities, because the way
I see it is, there's a lot of and I
say this when I talk to young women that feel like, oh,

(01:18:08):
we're not ready to be in the if they're at
North Texas or something, they say, we're not ready to
be in the one o'clock band. I don't want to
get the opportunity to play in the one o'clock band
when I'm really two o'clock band material, you know, And
I'm like, wait a minute. There's a lot of marginal
white men that have had these opportunities, you know, like
that weren't ready and why do.

Speaker 5 (01:18:28):
We have to be like three times, Oh, we have
to be super dope. No, that's just the program that way, right,
Like right, So.

Speaker 7 (01:18:34):
That's what I resent. I resent not having some opportunities
when I was in my thirties and forties, when I
really had the energy. But now I'm you know, I'm
burning a candle. I mean writing, you know, projects, writing words,
you know, like I'm writing the children's book, I'm doing
some film for an exhibition.

Speaker 6 (01:18:56):
As anybody approach you about a something about your life
because there is no one about you. There's nobody like
you in the world, Like it's.

Speaker 7 (01:19:05):
Just nobody's nobody's approached me yet about that.

Speaker 4 (01:19:09):
No memoir.

Speaker 7 (01:19:10):
No, I'm just trying to get my dad. He's gonna
like start because he has a better memory than me
and he's eighty four.

Speaker 4 (01:19:18):
Interview your dad right now.

Speaker 7 (01:19:19):
Yeah, what I'm doing I'm currently.

Speaker 4 (01:19:21):
In Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm going to interview my mom.

Speaker 3 (01:19:24):
Like just I think generally like everyone should just interview
their elders and get all the stories out so that
way that they're they're preserved, you.

Speaker 7 (01:19:36):
Know, and I also want to say to you too,
I use I tried to you might not hear the inspiration,
but break you off. You know that end drum thing right,
break you off, so like I have an end drump
thing on a tune of mine on the second Mosaic
Utrich Russian song when I found you, So that was

(01:19:56):
like your inspiration. I'm going to break you off is
what made me write that section at the end. But
this is in fifteen, but I think it's fifteen. But
if you check it out, I don't know, you know,
I said once the Wayne Shorter, I wrote this, you
were my inspiration. He was like, oh yeah, wow.

Speaker 5 (01:20:17):
We should have asked.

Speaker 6 (01:20:19):
When we ever see y'all on a stage together on
We Never damn should have asked that question because y'all
never been on a stage together.

Speaker 7 (01:20:28):
Never too late.

Speaker 4 (01:20:29):
Now, now, now's the time before.

Speaker 5 (01:20:31):
I'm gonna tell Christian. I'm gonna tell Christian, make it happen.

Speaker 4 (01:20:34):
Here you go.

Speaker 3 (01:20:36):
This is long overdue. I thank you so much for
coming on that show. You got to come back because
I've skipped so many, so many questions I had about
your career that I've skipped.

Speaker 2 (01:20:48):
Because about your fuller Lester Bowie, Diana Crass.

Speaker 3 (01:20:53):
Yeah, Jimmy jam episode, sure you like. Terry's actually like
a four hour episode on the real. So I'm at
my day Jo sneaking on my lunch break.

Speaker 6 (01:21:08):
Thank you for existing, Terry, Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:21:12):
No, that's real like you.

Speaker 3 (01:21:14):
You know, I saw you drumming mad early and you
know you were You were the first kid that I
saw doing.

Speaker 4 (01:21:23):
What I wanted to do for a living. That was
that was really inspiration.

Speaker 7 (01:21:25):
See and thank you pretty wild. I never would have
imagined that, and really that makes me feel really good.

Speaker 4 (01:21:35):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 7 (01:21:36):
Alone.

Speaker 3 (01:21:37):
Yeah, well on behalf of like Sugar Steve, Unpaid Bill
and fon Tickeolo.

Speaker 4 (01:21:43):
This is Quest Love and we will see you on
the next go round on the next episode of Quest Supreme.

Speaker 1 (01:21:48):
Piece we'st Love Supreme is a production of iHeart New Radio.

Speaker 3 (01:22:04):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.