March 6, 2023 • 54 mins
The music world lost a legend this week in Wayne Shorter. In 2022, Questlove Supreme had the honor of interviewing the man who shaped the sound of Jazz. In this conversation, Wayne Shorter told Team Supreme about his time with Weather Report, The Jazz Messengers, and Miles Davis. Wayne also spoke about his earliest music memories and his draw to Buddhism.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Questlove Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. What's going on, y'all?
This is Questlove and on behalf of the QLs family.
We're going to celebrate the life, the light, and the
legacy of the great Wayne Shorter and absolute master of
his craft, be it with his beginnings with the Art
Blakey Jazz Messengers, or with his mind blowing work with
(00:21):
one of the greatest quintets in jazz music. Of course,
I'm talking about his tenure with Miles Davis. Also with
the occasional side gig with Donald Byrd or McCoy, Tyner
or Herbie Hancock, Tony Williams, Lee Morgan, Freddy Hubbard, Carlos Santana,
Cindy Blackman, Santana, Marcus Miller, and even an opera with
a great Esperanza Spaulding. And of course I'd be remiss
(00:43):
if we didn't mention his spell bonding work with one
of the greatest creatives of musicians ever gathered. Of course,
I'm talking about weather Report. We got to speak to
Wayne brother Wayne June of twenty twenty two. He was
happy to share his work about his journey as a musician,
as a creative, as a Buddhist and as a human being.
(01:04):
We just want to offer condulsis to his family, to
his friends and his loved ones, and we celebrate his
life's work. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to another
episode of Quest Love Supreme. Your host question, Love, Oh,
I'm sorry. Are you know? Are recently awarded Webby Award
(01:28):
winning Quest Loves three times. It's the third one I
have yet. I have yet to see those trophies, but
I trust that we've won those dings. So in the
record books, do you know who they're sending those two
like you at all? I don't know, somebody in the sky.
I have no idea, but there are a lot of
emails being sent, So there's there's uh yeah, I was
(01:52):
gonna say, uh, you know somewhere out there, Uh they're
they're living their dream as Quest Love Supreme Award winners.
But you know that's neither here nor there, you know,
because besides getting actual statues and accolades, I'll say that
the joy of doing this podcast is, you know, it's
just every episode we just get educated legend after legend
(02:16):
after legend, and today is absolutely positively no exception to
that rule. Simply put today, Our Guests is probably one
of the greatest musicians, one of the greatest composers, one
of the greatest band leaders, probably one of the greatest improvisers.
(02:37):
I mean, when you really talk about the genre of
a free jazz and fusion or whatever you want to
call it, you know, our Our Guests is beyond pioneer.
Like see him Moore as as a painter, as an
artist who probably I'll say that his greatest weapon is
just his ability to create synesthesia and us with the
(03:02):
colors that he paints, with his with his compositions and
with his uh with his actual playing. Probably one of
the greatest time travels of music. I mean every ever
play with everybody, every every project of his story career,
from being a member of the legendary Art Blakey Jazz Messengers,
you know, playing with like Lee Morgan, Bobby Timmans, Baby
(03:23):
parrott Um, one of the i mean one of the
prime architects of the greatest quintets and the history jazz
with with Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter and Tony Williams,
with what we call the second great quintet Um, even
down to forming weather Report with Josell and playing with
(03:45):
like Jacob Stores and Alfonso Johnson and Victor Bailey and
all these greats um even to his own work. If
if if I do this intro, the show will be
over before we even get to question. Ladies and gentlemen,
please welcome and give it, give us the honor of
welcoming one of the greatest architects in music, not the
(04:08):
one and the only Wayne Short. Thank you very much
for doing me. Hello, Hello, Hello, everybody. Thank you that introduction. Thanks,
But really it really belongs to all of the cats.
I call them the cats, and I even called the
(04:28):
guys from the classical area they were cats and didn't
know it. Yeah. So right now, where are you speaking
to us from? Where are you at right now currently? Well,
I'm right here in California, Los Angeles. That's where you
live right now, at home? Yeah, okay, how long has
that been your home out there? Well, I've been here
(04:50):
since nineteen seventy two, seventy one, seventy two, but seven
years in Florida, then moved back to California. Yeah. Now,
normally you know, when I when I do this show
and try to go through the genealogy, but you know,
you have seven decades of creativity under your belt, so
we wouldn't even scratch the surface. So I kind of
(05:12):
want to just do sort of random questioning. Now you
mentioned California, and there's a myth I would like you
to settle with me. You know, I come from the
world of hip hop, and you know hip hop has
been very territorial. You know, the type of hip hop
that comes from New York is different than that of
down South, that's different than that of the West Coast.
(05:33):
But can you is there any theory on why you
believe or I've always felt that California has never truly
gotten its respect in terms of of jazz music, Like
I've always heard that, you know, no self respecting musician
would ever you know, stay in California like you, you
would stay in New York, where the heart of creativity is.
(05:56):
But what was it about California that drew you to it?
And did you ever adhere to jazz snobs that you know,
the jazz police whatever that always looked down on California
And yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. Well, one
of the first thing where I moved to California was
a medical reason. I had a daughter who was acquired
(06:19):
brain damage when she was born, and then the four
seasons on the East Coast. The doctor says she would
get colds from some of the drafts and some of
the departments, you know, like with windows and stuff like that,
and then she would be have seizures. Sometimes she would
have fifteen seizures in a day. And they said, you
(06:41):
have to be to go to a warm climate, like
with two major climates summer in spring, or go to
California or something like that. So that's we moved from
New York to California. And while we were moving, we
found out people were moving too, but they didn't have
(07:02):
medical reasons, but they like Herbie Hancocks, he moved just
before I did Chick Korea Joe's Avenue, and A, yeah,
they were, And I was thinking they were moving to
where jazz was needed in a sense, yeah, you know.
(07:24):
And I got that by observing Charlie Parker when he
was out here and he was hede beating and relaxing
it in California and playing some of the places and
picking up other the West Coast musicians to play with him,
and uh, I saw him pictures of him rehearsing with
(07:45):
Leanna Tristano, Lee Konitz and the guys who you know
out here, the Jet Baker and uh but Johnnie Parker,
he would play bar mits uh anywhere see with Charlie Barker.
I'm saying where you were didn't matter. He was so
(08:07):
I mean the movie where he was singing Mario Orlansis
being my Love, right, Yeah, Bars Whittaker was actually acting
and singing, you know. And Uh. While I'm mentioning this,
I like to mention a musician who passed away. I
didn't know he had passed away. His name was Bernard, right,
(08:28):
yet he was kind of wild and everything. I didn't
I didn't realize he came out of the church when
he was young. But he was one of the guys
who played uh, synthesizer any way he wanted to and piano.
It didn't matter where he was. I'm sticking on this
where you are location thing. And we have a little
(08:50):
thing we say and talk about in the in Buddhism,
when you're pack your suitcase, you're gonna move somewhere where
you think you you better off. There's a little guy
sitting on the suitcase named Karma talking about what took
you so long, I'm going with you, so you're gonna
take your environment with you. And never giving up is
(09:15):
my model. Never give up and don't let where you
are Foolia, that's it, okay. You you mentioned um being
a practicing Buddhist. You know, one of the first people
that I've ever heard mentioning that they were practicing Buddhists
was Herbie Hancock. Is it safe to assume that both
(09:36):
of you discovered this at the same time or were
you too a part of each other's process and studying Buddhism,
because you know, even back I remember interviews as early
as like nineteen seventy one of him speaking of his
Buddhist practice. When did you become a Buddhist? Well, actually
nineteen seventy three I took up the mantle so to
(09:59):
speak to Japan without you know, and my wife at
the time, Anna Maria, she's the one who passed away
on t wa uh. She was nailing something on the
wall one month one morning in California in our first house.
(10:19):
She's nailing something to the wall, and I said, what
you're doing? Three o'clock in the morning, And she said,
I just came from Herbie's house this afternoon, and he
was telling me about this uh practice of Buddhism. And
what we learned from Herbie was he learned it from
Buster Williams. He learned about it from Buster Williams. But
(10:41):
the will and said he learned about it from his wife,
Ronnie Vernica Ronica Williams, when when he was about fresh
out of high school. And uh so, Herbie said, why
don't you check it out for your daughter's sake, because
our daughter was born with these seizures and all that.
(11:04):
So we thought maybe we would check out the philosophy
and see how it connects with our daughter. Our daughter
did pass away at age fifteen of a grandma seizure
here in California, But the wise practitioners of Buddhism say
(11:26):
she came with brain damage. But she completed her mission,
and our mission was to expose her parents to the
ultimate law of life, the ultimate law of of their life,
that that you are eternal and stuff like that. There's
(11:48):
a lot of the same things. But she came to
wake us up, even though she didn't she only had
a few words, a few words to speak and stuff
like that. But her life was not in vain. So
we're looking at a lot of other people who who
kind of think something is in vain. There's no used
(12:10):
to do this. I'm gonna give up on that. I got.
I got a bunch of shirts out here it says
never give up on the shirt, so that that's uh,
it's not so much trying to be perfect and be
a religious person. In fact, some of us who practice
(12:30):
this Buddhism get wilder. Oh hey, I mean, you know,
or anything where the report comes next. So, of course,
because the thing is, especially with the history of of
our people in this country with black people. Yeah, I
always wondered, you know, how hard of a decision was
(12:55):
that to me, you know, because I think that black
people were always trained to, you know, like we must
only follow Christianity and any other philosophy. Like Maurice White
would tell me that when he was sort of practicing
his spirituality that it was really controversial with everyday blacks
because it wasn't under the trope of like God, Jesus
(13:19):
and Christianity. But for you to do that so early,
especially now that we're more open to I guess following
our hearts and following traditions and ways whatnot. You know,
how was was this easy for the people around you,
your family members or your friends or whatever like to
(13:41):
except where you were going, or did they just look
at you like an alien Like I was forty or
forty one, where when I thought, you know, I think,
I said, I got it together. I know, you know,
I can, I can take care of myself. It's there's
a point where some of us think we know everything.
We can end the living in it's coming our way.
(14:02):
And when I was forty, I stopped to think about
my daughter's seizures, how she came into the world with
the brain damage and all that, and I was I
started thinking about this. I said, wait a minute, there
is some stuff I don't know about. So I started
listening to what some of the people I knew. Of course,
(14:25):
it was her being Buster Williams, my wife at the time,
Anna Maria. She started working on this listening to philosophy
before I did. And I when I went on a
tour in nineteen seventy three, July three to Japan, and
(14:46):
when we all left with what report we all left,
and when stopped in Hawaii, I stopped in Hawaii behind them,
took another plate and got in a small hotel by
myself because I was actually handling alcohol. So I want
to be myself. When we had two days off before
(15:08):
we did a concert in Hawaii and just get ripped.
I not just getting ripped, the sloppy and everything. I've
got me a new suit, pantamat suit, and I walk
around acting like I can handle everything. And I went
from nightclub to nightclub, sitting at the bar talking philosophy
from Jian philosophy with people and all that. And they
(15:30):
told me, once you start to do this practice as
a Buddhism Buddhist, all of us jumps that you have
in you was gonna come out and say it's it's
like a water hose and garden water hose that hasn't
been used in a long time. And when you plush
(15:51):
it with this philosophy, the first thing that comes up,
there's a lot of leaves and rusts and everything like
that out of your life. And I was saying, whoa
I thought I was? You know? So I was. They
even had a what do you call a missing person
call or me in Hawaii couldn't find until it was
(16:12):
time to play the gig, and I went. I got
myself together and then joined the band and they said,
you scared us to death. Man with so uh that
I had gone to a temple in Japan and what
do you call it? Received something called I don't want
to see me the words, but Gujakai. Tina Turner has
(16:34):
a book out on this stuff. She has a whole
explanation of stuff. And I like that. And I received it.
And the temple it's only a little baby and myself
and the baby's mother and the temple, and we received something,
and we said we're gonna practice this practice. So anyway,
the thing about playing different once you start doing stuff
(16:58):
like this a different. What Herbie said was he heard
Buster Williams take a bass solo one night. Maybe you
heard about this. I mean, this is classic. He took
a bass solo. They were playing at the Penthouse in
the Seattle Can't Panhouse Niper when when Buster finished, the
(17:22):
applause wouldn't stop. That it was one of the longest
applause the Herbie ever heard. And they got an the
dressed room. He said, Buster, what you've been doing? Explained
to him a little bit about what he's doing. So Herby,
I want to try what's going on. And that was
that was when he got what he called that hit,
(17:46):
that dead, that dead right. Okay, okay, okay, okay, that's
how changed his sound. Okay, well, actually people, he didn't
want people to think, when you start practicing a philosophy,
you to get hit records. No, but but Herbie got
a hit before the water. Another man hit the one
(18:09):
dude a million. But I always thought that Herbie had
a lucky star over his head ever since I met
him in nineteen sixty three. He's one of those guys
in school. There's another guy with the school with you,
like Herbie basic where he's a diplomat now. Anyways, anyway,
(18:30):
just like Herbye, they had this lucky star over the
head all their lives. I said, Man, nothing nothing funny
ever happened to them. Good. But I learned quickly you
can't count your blessing by watching your neighbor's treasure. Truth
(18:51):
you call it. I took to myself, shut up and
be cool, and I stopped. I stopped talking. I went
to the meeting. We had meetings at our house, had
a lot of meetings at our house. People and a
lot of name dropping people who came to the meetings,
you know, people who wanted to be movie stars and
all that wanted to get this, but uh, you'd be
(19:16):
surprised the names are. You know, I'm not gonna say
the names, but if everything every now and then I
would say a name of a person who came to
our house to a meeting, and somebody would say, oh,
your name dropping, Now your name dropped. But I cut
them off and say, no, I'm not name dropping, I'm
(19:37):
named lifting. One question I had for you, mister Shorter,
how did you get the nickname mister Gone? Oh? Yeah,
I was in the Brazil and we all had We
all went to Brazil to do festival there, and then
the band came back to the United States early to
(19:58):
do this record. I ate another month in Brazil while
they were making a record, and they were making some music.
They were the name they name did it after me? It? Joe? Come,
let's call this one, mister Gone. I really liked Joe's
piece Young and Fine on that on that album. Time. Yeah. Yeah,
(20:27):
I briefly met you once, um at a festival. I
mean this is like twenty years ago or twenty maybe
twenty five years ago, and just briefly talking. And I
believe you told me that you didn't even start your
craft and playing uh, clarinet and saxophone until you were
(20:49):
like well into your teens, so you know, and I
really did because we were in passing. I always wanted
to ask you. So you're telling me that I would
have thought that you would have came out the room,
you know, with with with with the accent hands. How
did how did you discover your talents at such kind
(21:11):
of a late stage in your life? Well, actually, I
used to play hookie from when I started high school.
I played hookie go to the movies, walk and walk
past to school and going down to downtown to movie
theater and I used to go see uh, like two
(21:31):
movies and the stage show. And the stage show was
at the theater is called the Adams Theater. And there
was Dizzy Lesbi you don't know a Jacket and his
brother Russell Jacket, and the thing called the Jazz at
the Philharmonics. I'm I'm I'm watching this stuff listening. I
was about fifteen then, and there's a music store right
(21:55):
around the corner from the high school. I used to
walk by this music store and look in the window.
I was majoring in art and I found myself cutting
classes just go looking at music, look at the instruments
in the music store. Then I got me uh for
a dollar something dollars fifty A little thing looks like
(22:19):
a submarine called a tonette, a plastic It's like a
plastic flute at six holes. I got it, and I
used to walk around the neighborhood blowing on this thing,
like do do do do? Do? Do do do? And
my mother said, whenever she wanted to get me to
(22:41):
come into a dinner, she oh, she had just opened
the window, and here where I was, here where I
was at, But I know where you're at. So then
I started fingering this thing. No instructions. I just saw
do do do you know? Playing with it? And when
I went to see the stage shows, I hear them playing,
(23:03):
Um they did they did? Did they? And I mashed
the holes on this little it looks like a submarine.
I mashed the DoD do do? I try to mash
what I heard? And then I looked in the window
(23:23):
real close one time, and there's this clarinet sitting up
there among the other instruments are vertical. And my grandmother
and my mother got the money together to get this
cl clarinet, which cost ninety dollars. It was a used
clarinet in the name. When I said somebody's name Elizabeth
(23:45):
new Jersey on each part of the clarinet, they get
taken apart and I got that class. I still have it,
You still have it? Yeah? WHOA and I and I
and I went into the music store. The guy who
rand the music store was also he ran the pit
man af they had him said, and when they had
(24:05):
the shows, his name was Jack Arnold Press and here
to take me to the back room, and h started
to clown that lessons lord, learning to read notes, counting
and all that cat pat in your foot and all
you know, stuff like that. I did that one year
with him. Then he got me a tenor saxophone too,
(24:28):
because he said, you make more money you played clarinet
and tenner the music union again. So I got to
mess around with these things. But I you to talk
playing at home about six hours a day, not every day,
but six hours of the school days. I stand up
(24:52):
in the room and just I turned around in the
six hours going by him, so working on scales stuff
like that. Uh. Then I listened, So what was out
there listening to Charlie Parker all the guys are blanky
colonious monk what they were doing. And then I got
(25:13):
I went to the library and took took out records
a classical and uh, I got one of the discal
less h Montaka And also I got Stravinsky's The Writer's Springing. Yeah, yeah, Yo,
(25:34):
that explains everything. The fact that you would shed the
wrights the spring explains everything all right to our listeners
out there, um real quick. Stravinsky's compositions used to cause riots. Ye,
Stravinsky was the edim of his days. Stravinsky was the
bomb squad public enemy of his day. Like he would
(25:54):
make the audience angry with clashing notes, and you know,
he was the free jazz of the classical era. And
when he created Writes a Spring, I mean just name
all the controversial records that you can think of from
Miles Is on the Corner to it takes a nation
(26:15):
of millions of olders back to even when like you know,
Radiohead sort of turned their kid back on rock with
you know, with kid like all these experiments and it
made the audience angry. But you know this, that was
like one of the first examples of opening a portal
of creativity where suddenly you didn't follow the rules of music.
(26:38):
You had to just you know, you followed your heart,
and so you started that. The nineteen oh nine they
were in Paris when it first did the writer spring
publicly and it's a musician. I think it's a masto something.
They weren't sitting next to another composer and when the
(27:00):
writer spring started, he was annoying. He said, why this
stunsky started with the bassoon where up high? It's an
ugly sound or something like that, and the other guy said,
(27:21):
he quiet, let's let's see what he's doing. And every
time I played Acus, I said, started with something that
would irritate people. I heard that somebody got killed in that. Uh. Yes,
it's it was like the first mosh pit or the
(27:42):
first first act of violence out of music. Uh. You know,
I always bring that up when people talk about like
violence in hip hop, and I'm like, you know, we
learned about classical music. I think started a long time ago. Listen,
let me let me ask you, and I'm skipping on
a little of the place, but since you kind of
barret it up, I gotta ask you. At the time,
(28:05):
did you feel like Miles was going through his own
Stravinsky phase in terms of like where he was taking music,
you know, at the time when Miles was really stretching out,
and you know, I kind of feel like that phase
started with the last jazz record that you guys made,
which was the neffertd album. Can you just explain one thing,
(28:28):
what was the philosophy behind the title track Neffertdi, in
which you norm Miles took a solo and you let
Tony Williams and Ron Carter just run rampant with experiments
like that was just unheard of at the time, Like
(28:49):
or were you guys just like roll the tape, you know, TiO,
start the tape and just start going, Like what was
the philosophy behind that particular that particular session which you
guys did a seven minute jazz soul song with no
solos in it and just let the rhythm section go crazy.
(29:11):
I feel like he had something. I knew he was
getting a prop I knew he was. I love it.
Let's go. You see this lefort you're holding up the
statue and effort. I made this when you I was
fifteen years old. Wow, And I got it from the
(29:33):
school before they got it, got a hold of it themselves.
You know I made this. No, this is a a
replica of the one that they have in the Bell
in the museum. Yeah. I got it from the newspaper
and I toughted it even clay and plaster. And this
(29:55):
is it from nineteen fifty one, nineteen fifty, from nineteen
fifty to now. Yea, it is hitting talents. That's beautiful.
Our listeners out there, mister short is we're on zoom.
Of course he's holding up a white sculpture of nupported
and you did this at fifteen. Oh yeah, this is
(30:17):
on YouTube and people are going to see that sculpture.
So that's good. I didn't I didn't know how heavy
the thing is heavy. That is beautiful. What caused you
guys to do the repetition thing with no solos? Oh yeah,
well Miles when we started playing it, Miles, so it
was indicating with his body movement. He keept doing like
(30:42):
again again again, so we go do the melody again.
He kept going and then Tony Williams started doing like
the drum thing behind him. Don't need any solos. I
don't need the solo because when we played it in
person later when Chip Korea was a pianist chick would
(31:06):
play it's solow here and there on it. But it
was he said, he said that there's nothing can match
the melody. Yeah, what we heard. I went to Sweden
and got one of those awards in Sweden m hm.
And they meet an arrangement of Netid, which is the
(31:30):
baddest arrangement I've heard so far. With the orchestra there.
They man, they tore it up and they didn't they
didn't solo. They just did the melody and and put
clothes on it, put a costume on it. That was
like like only the Swedish, the Europeans and they're artistic,
(31:54):
you know. They were saying we understand. It was saying
we understand where where you want to go and where
you could go? How about this? So with Miles, it
was after Neffer td that Miles did the bitches brew
(32:15):
m It's like he he also he also wanted to
start writing music where he would get get the publishing,
you know, royalties from publishing songwriting and stuff like that,
and that that when he got from Betty I'm a
down Home Girl. That's that was hers her lyrics and everything.
(32:42):
He made the disse a melody out of stuff like
that place, and uh, that's when he crossed over into
concert halls, from the nightclubs into concert halls and his
his The funny thing he said, one of the first
things he did when he crossed over was a dull
(33:06):
Grahams the ice House or someplace in California in the
dressing room. We only played like a half hour, and
he got good money for it. So what it was
we were used to playing two hours or an hour,
and this is the first time we played thirty minutes.
(33:26):
And the mouse was looking at this the paycheck that
he got from the frontal organization. We were all sitting
around and we didn't look at it ourselves, but moles
are looking at the paycheck. He said, damn, thirty minutes.
He looked at us and he said, I feel like
the seats. But that's when he started, you know, we talked.
(33:53):
He went to Europe. He started getting the conscious in
Europe and stuff like that, and that's when he met
Sesame Tyson. But that that's that part. But before Miles died,
we all met in Switzerland. M I need to help
the thing with Quincy Jones and all that stuff. Wallace
running was playing Miles as parts on the trumpet and
(34:15):
all that, and the Moles got me and Herbie together
and said what he said, what would it be like
if we got together again? And we said when you
were talking about yeah, we said, we said, ruh ruh.
Wait a minute, you're trying to tell me, because the
(34:36):
thing was I asked Quincy, like, how did you get
Miles to even agree to even go anywhere close to
that type of jazz, which you know he had he
had somehow avoided, you know, for least in that traditional
sense of playing jazz. And you're telling me that, Miles Davis,
(34:57):
you and Herbie actually spoke of wanting something together again.
Miles was thinking about what would we sound like after
weather Report and after Hunter and after all that. But
Herbie's been to and I've been what what what kind
of stuff could we uh conjure up? That's what everybody
(35:17):
want to know. Yeah, yeah, So where he went to
the thing called dud Bob with an easymobile, you know,
and then he got two guys and Marcus Miller and
then they got those guys together, you know, guitar players
and stuff like that. But it's his body. His body
(35:38):
kind of dictated dictated where he was going to go musically,
and he would have to rest while playing. Okay, and
uh to start a whole new something. You know, it's
been a lot of work, but we wasn't supposed to
(36:02):
get together again. Really, but that thought was like like uh,
lighting and lighting a match in a dark tunnel. I
have a question about Miles um. Has he offered any
sort of opinion on your work with Weather Report during
(36:25):
that period. Yeah, he did say that was the only
thing happening, he wrote, He wrote in a newspaper. He said,
the only thing that was happening out there was Weather Report,
Oh oh wow. And he mentioned some pianos like happening
as a pianist is Herbie Check, a couple of other
(36:49):
pianists that you know, uh, band leaders and everything. That's
the only thing happening. When he was going for the
six years, and he'd come to see us at the
Theater in New York, hm, and people didn't know who
he was. He come backstage, they didn't know who he was,
(37:09):
and he said, let Miles in man. Really Yeah, oh wow,
that's crazy of your your first round of solo work
like the like the Schizophrenia album, The Night dreamer Alsie
and I like, my favorite is Juju. But can you
(37:30):
talk about what the creative process was in doing your
solo work, because I would imagine that if you were
in Miles's band, like I would imagine that, I know
some band leaders that were frowned doing what they were
called moonlighting, like doing your own solo works. I always
wanted to know how Myles felt about like you and Herbie,
(37:53):
especially like doing your own solo work on the side
at Blue Note while still being in in this this quintet,
you guys were so tight as a unit. How often
would you guys practice as a band during that period?
I mean as a Miles Davis band or our own band? Well,
I mean just I guess I'm asking how are you
(38:16):
able to you know, maximize creativity what Miles Davis and
also subsequently do your own solo stuff on the side.
I think where Miles he welcomed that that it would
shine on him, you know it would Uh we do
our own publicity, so to speak, which bounced off on
(38:41):
the Miles Davis quintet was like, Uh, we didn't have
to call Miles to ask what a retainer while we
were off when he's like in a hospital or something
like that. We were like self kind of self sufficient
in that way. A lot of people wanted to play
(39:05):
with the Miles Davids rhythm section, you know, they wanted
to make records with the Miles Davis rhythm section. But
the guys were like Furby and then then there's McCoy.
You had another way. You had the top guys doing
things together and it made it a little difficult for
(39:28):
anyone to crash that to or tear it down or
uh speak against it, you know is wow, they got
open June even art break. He played on one of
my records. My first records played the drunk. So there
(39:51):
was that given takes respect built in. But then later
when people start counting counting the beans, that the royalties
what sold and what didn't sell, and that there was
an effort I think on the record company's part to
(40:14):
um break up any kind of alliance that we formed
that they couldn't get their hands on. They were discouraging
the build up of like a u'd and Duke allingas
(40:35):
band for life, but people starting a band from Duke
Ellingons band or starting their own band from count Bass
Yeah Erskine Hawkins and you know all that they were
together almost like a life sentence. You know, they're the
only ones who graduated in a sense, would be like
(41:01):
if you went into movies like Tap Dancers or the Vocalist. Yeah,
have you seen that Gers documentary? No? Yes, yes, but
she became the band leader. M Yeah. I was just
going to ask you because I've seen you in a
lot recently and especially Lee Morgan and Miles, and I
(41:24):
was wondering, as an architect, how do you feel in
this moment of documenting all its history and do you
feel like they're getting it right? They're they're doing part
and parcel put it that way. Okay, what would you like?
There's another one coming out on myself a second, your
(41:45):
second documentary about about you. Right, it's a second. No,
this is no, this is a full one. Okay, come
out soon and this is uh I can say what
is the title rep thus far? The title is uh
Wayne Shorter, zero Gravity. I'd be remiss if I didn't
(42:09):
speak of your your work with the Jazz Messengers. I
just want to know in general, is the Jazz Messengers
like your first actual like professional big gig, just in
terms of you being with with the unit Yeah, yeah, messengers.
How do I know you're from You were from Newark?
(42:32):
I know that. You know, America was in such a
chaotic sort of place, especially for black people. What was
it like as as a person that was able to
leave America and start touring the world and going overseas
and all those things to see what effect did that
(42:53):
have on you? Well? Actually I was working with Maynard
Ferginson's band, you know, Maynard focused in the Big Band
about three weeks and one time we were working at
Birdland and the waiter said, there's a telephone call from
Wayne Alive Blake. He's on the phone, said. Lee Morgan
(43:16):
had come to New York, New Jersey and played a
session with John Coltrane, and as on midnight, the Lee
called my house. He heard about me. He called my
house for I'd like to go and play with them
in the last number, still playing a night in Tunisia
at a nightclub in New York, and I went, got
(43:38):
my stuff together and played on the Last Number with
Lee Morgan and John Coltrane. Yeah, there was a jam
session and Lee had been going around to the jam
sessions listening to people, and we worked in New York
with Dizzy get Leslie's big band with the drummer Charlie
(43:59):
Person from Nook. You know, I was at the place
called sugar Hill, by the way, that's the place I
saw Billie Holiday before I went in the army. He
was at sugar Hill and Nook too much, right, everybody? Yeah,
the one this month. They was all in there. And anyway,
(44:20):
when I got out of the army, that's when Lee
called me and said, I'm playing with John Coltrane and
Nook at midnight. We're gonna play one more number. Can
you come? I heard about you, so I went and played.
Then when I got with men Our Fergus, this band,
we were playing in Canada at a race track, the
(44:43):
Canadian Exposition we call it, and doing the break I'm
a Jamal and Sarah Van. They were doing a break head.
Comes Lee Morgan running across the red the race track.
He came up to me. I'm sitting here in the audience. Yeah,
you want to be with the Messengers. You want to
be with the Messengers. I said, yeah, to come with
(45:04):
me and I went to a tenth. That's all right, Blake,
you said, man and I said, he said, Lee Morgan
is the Apple of my eye and I trust what
he said. Kid never heard me really, he said, you
want to be in my band. So he called Birdman,
(45:26):
who was still Wayne with Men of Ferguson band. He
called Birdman and told Man of Ferguson the Wayne is
a fighter pilot. He's not a he doesn't work with
bombers like Big Man fighter pilot. So the man, I said,
he can find somebody to take his place out. Don't go,
(45:47):
said kay, And I found somebody real good cat too.
And then I flew from there to French Lick, Indiana,
be accessible with the Messengers, Miles Davis, all of them, Cannibal,
they're all that. And I'm That was the start of
my my gig with the Jazz Messengers. And here's one
(46:07):
of the big piece of advice that I got. We
got from Mark Blakey when we went to Europe. Our shit.
Don't try to razzle dazzle and then and uh and
uh you know people and how much you know about
jazz and bebop and how much you know don't try
(46:29):
to show off, yeah, show off and everything that it's
just the only thing they're gonna remember. It's your behavior.
He said, Okay, your behavior found cool. Me and Lea
we were cool and everything. So the behavior it's like
(46:51):
a guide for us wherever we went to just be cool,
play and play what you play. He was the coolest
dressers to everything, you know. And uh so I was
looking with them for five years, five years with them,
jazz messenges and uh just be cool, don't pack your foot,
(47:17):
don't pack your foot with at Lee Morgan, documentaries everything. Nah,
that was great. One question I have for you, mister Shorter,
was about one of my favorite saxophonists, cannon Ball Adderlie. Yeah, um,
you talk about just your work with him and like
you guys, relationship, what was What was he like? So
(47:39):
cannon Ball was he was cool. He was very kind
of not not jovial, but he liked to have a
good time. He liked to he liked to have the
bounce in his music. Did it didn't It didn't, did
did it? You know? And uh yeah he had a
(48:02):
nice uh combination with Miles and all them, and I didn't.
I didn't. There was the combination of J. J. Johnson
Sonny said and Miles too. Then I was real short.
I did these people like Cannonball JJJ? I played on
J G. Johnson's last record, Cannonball. I saw him last
(48:30):
at the Blue Note in the lower part of h
New York near the Holland Tunnel, and uh, him and
his brother Nat we had conversations and something about life
and stuff. But that thing about being a school teacher,
(48:51):
that that was very evident in his uh mannerism when
he talked about music and stuff like that, he was
still attached to being a teacher. And Florida. I know,
you're talking to the schools in Florida something like that.
And but but then there's there's the other ones, this
(49:12):
one and they had, uh, there's there's some outo saxophone players.
Then my my brother was crazy about one name, Ernie Henry.
And he said there was Danny Quebec who did the
opening of Around Men like do do do do? Do? Do? We?
(49:33):
Did you know that? I que back to nephew. Uh.
The names of people that had sound World they are
Gray World, Al Gray whatever and and it's a Ward
Gray and uh, my man, just who did the realm
And like we sitting standing around the jukebox, Waldoor Gray
(49:57):
had that that sound this sound up. A lot of
the guys wanted that, said guests got that sound and
Wardou Gray and Uh the President. Let's say you had
a discussion with Lesser Young in a nightclub up in
(50:17):
Canada and he on his night off or doing a break.
I was looking for something to drink in the club
when I'm doing a break. He took me down into
the cell of the wine cellar. He said, let's go
downstairs and get some real cornyac and we just talked.
I didn't tell him I was in the army. I
(50:38):
didn't tell him I was a musician. But he we
talked a little bit. The first and last time I
saw Lesser Young in person the club on Young Street
and uh and Toronto, Canada. Yeah that that club was
something so. But other than that, these conversations were Billy Epstein,
(51:02):
who says something backstage, he's telling us something. Art is
introducing us to these guys, and Lewis Armstrong and then
Lionel Hampton and we're shaking hands with uh Man and
the Lionel said, right, he to call everybody Gates, Hey, Gates,
(51:23):
write something for my band. Gates, write something up the
Gates nis what he heard me and to all of
these people, Man, I'm telling you is Duke Ellington. We
were not shaking hands with these people and moving them
through and it was a uh, what's his name, Dad
(51:44):
day st Q, let's go ahead. Wait, I don't know
that time, Jameron, Tad, Jameron and okay, the names man.
And there's the ladies too. Oh just shut up. Where
(52:06):
there's some ladies. The Sweethearts of Rhythm, Yes, yeah, the Sweethearts, Yes, yes, yeah,
and something about the clouds and knew that's original. It
was just clouds of Joy or something like that, The
Sweethearts of Rhythm. And there was Slyde Hampton the Slide.
Hampton's sister glad It's Hampton played trump. She played like
(52:30):
Hilly Joe Jones and this Glory of Bell, who was
married to George Coleman. Gloria Bell played the bass. I'm
having a jams giving some homework. You are giving all
these listeners some homework. I love it. References. Yes, yes,
she had a place seven harm called Connie's when we
did jam sessions at Connie's, and right across street was
(52:53):
with uh Smalls Paradise. Yes, we go back then played
to the jam session. There's Nancy Wilson sitting in the audience.
She was the secretary to uh uh Dane Carroll's husband
at the time. Wow kid of stuff standing stuff was
(53:16):
going on and uh and the guy that Denzel Washington
played as the gangster, the guy who ran. Yeah, he'd
be sitting under the bar checking out who's coming is
going because they had the double park Eldorados outside and
some people came inside, some of these high rollers. They
(53:39):
would come inside and want to hear Miles played one
note and as Myles looked fast and the guy put
down the big dollars hundred dollars Joe and said that
did it. I came. I came to hear the mouth
and I heard him and then me this documentary is
gonna be good. You need to script too, We need everything.
(54:03):
This is kind of a two parter, but when we
come back for part two, I definitely want to get
into um your work on your opera with you know,
the great Esperanza Spalding and Dick Ingenia project. And so
I thank you for this education. We're gonna comment with
(54:26):
a part two of course Supreme with a great Wayne
Shorter and we hope you guys come and join us. Okay, whatchlap.
Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts
(54:48):
from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Questlove Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. What's going on, y'all?
This is Questlove and on behalf of the QLs family.
We're going to celebrate the life, the light, and the
legacy of the great Wayne Shorter and absolute master of
his craft, be it with his beginnings with the Art
Blakey Jazz Messengers, or with his mind blowing work with
(00:21):
one of the greatest quintets in jazz music. Of course,
I'm talking about his tenure with Miles Davis. Also with
the occasional side gig with Donald Byrd or McCoy, Tyner
or Herbie Hancock, Tony Williams, Lee Morgan, Freddy Hubbard, Carlos Santana,
Cindy Blackman, Santana, Marcus Miller, and even an opera with
a great Esperanza Spaulding. And of course I'd be remiss
(00:43):
if we didn't mention his spell bonding work with one
of the greatest creatives of musicians ever gathered. Of course,
I'm talking about weather Report. We got to speak to
Wayne brother Wayne June of twenty twenty two. He was
happy to share his work about his journey as a musician,
as a creative, as a Buddhist and as a human being.
(01:04):
We just want to offer condulsis to his family, to
his friends and his loved ones, and we celebrate his
life's work. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to another
episode of Quest Love Supreme. Your host question, Love, Oh,
I'm sorry. Are you know? Are recently awarded Webby Award
(01:28):
winning Quest Loves three times. It's the third one I
have yet. I have yet to see those trophies, but
I trust that we've won those dings. So in the
record books, do you know who they're sending those two
like you at all? I don't know, somebody in the sky.
I have no idea, but there are a lot of
emails being sent, So there's there's uh yeah, I was
(01:52):
gonna say, uh, you know somewhere out there, Uh they're
they're living their dream as Quest Love Supreme Award winners.
But you know that's neither here nor there, you know,
because besides getting actual statues and accolades, I'll say that
the joy of doing this podcast is, you know, it's
just every episode we just get educated legend after legend
(02:16):
after legend, and today is absolutely positively no exception to
that rule. Simply put today, Our Guests is probably one
of the greatest musicians, one of the greatest composers, one
of the greatest band leaders, probably one of the greatest improvisers.
(02:37):
I mean, when you really talk about the genre of
a free jazz and fusion or whatever you want to
call it, you know, our Our Guests is beyond pioneer.
Like see him Moore as as a painter, as an
artist who probably I'll say that his greatest weapon is
just his ability to create synesthesia and us with the
(03:02):
colors that he paints, with his with his compositions and
with his uh with his actual playing. Probably one of
the greatest time travels of music. I mean every ever
play with everybody, every every project of his story career,
from being a member of the legendary Art Blakey Jazz Messengers,
you know, playing with like Lee Morgan, Bobby Timmans, Baby
(03:23):
parrott Um, one of the i mean one of the
prime architects of the greatest quintets and the history jazz
with with Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter and Tony Williams,
with what we call the second great quintet Um, even
down to forming weather Report with Josell and playing with
(03:45):
like Jacob Stores and Alfonso Johnson and Victor Bailey and
all these greats um even to his own work. If
if if I do this intro, the show will be
over before we even get to question. Ladies and gentlemen,
please welcome and give it, give us the honor of
welcoming one of the greatest architects in music, not the
(04:08):
one and the only Wayne Short. Thank you very much
for doing me. Hello, Hello, Hello, everybody. Thank you that introduction. Thanks,
But really it really belongs to all of the cats.
I call them the cats, and I even called the
(04:28):
guys from the classical area they were cats and didn't
know it. Yeah. So right now, where are you speaking
to us from? Where are you at right now currently? Well,
I'm right here in California, Los Angeles. That's where you
live right now, at home? Yeah, okay, how long has
that been your home out there? Well, I've been here
(04:50):
since nineteen seventy two, seventy one, seventy two, but seven
years in Florida, then moved back to California. Yeah. Now,
normally you know, when I when I do this show
and try to go through the genealogy, but you know,
you have seven decades of creativity under your belt, so
we wouldn't even scratch the surface. So I kind of
(05:12):
want to just do sort of random questioning. Now you
mentioned California, and there's a myth I would like you
to settle with me. You know, I come from the
world of hip hop, and you know hip hop has
been very territorial. You know, the type of hip hop
that comes from New York is different than that of
down South, that's different than that of the West Coast.
(05:33):
But can you is there any theory on why you
believe or I've always felt that California has never truly
gotten its respect in terms of of jazz music, Like
I've always heard that, you know, no self respecting musician
would ever you know, stay in California like you, you
would stay in New York, where the heart of creativity is.
(05:56):
But what was it about California that drew you to it?
And did you ever adhere to jazz snobs that you know,
the jazz police whatever that always looked down on California
And yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. Well, one
of the first thing where I moved to California was
a medical reason. I had a daughter who was acquired
(06:19):
brain damage when she was born, and then the four
seasons on the East Coast. The doctor says she would
get colds from some of the drafts and some of
the departments, you know, like with windows and stuff like that,
and then she would be have seizures. Sometimes she would
have fifteen seizures in a day. And they said, you
(06:41):
have to be to go to a warm climate, like
with two major climates summer in spring, or go to
California or something like that. So that's we moved from
New York to California. And while we were moving, we
found out people were moving too, but they didn't have
(07:02):
medical reasons, but they like Herbie Hancocks, he moved just
before I did Chick Korea Joe's Avenue, and A, yeah,
they were, And I was thinking they were moving to
where jazz was needed in a sense, yeah, you know.
(07:24):
And I got that by observing Charlie Parker when he
was out here and he was hede beating and relaxing
it in California and playing some of the places and
picking up other the West Coast musicians to play with him,
and uh, I saw him pictures of him rehearsing with
(07:45):
Leanna Tristano, Lee Konitz and the guys who you know
out here, the Jet Baker and uh but Johnnie Parker,
he would play bar mits uh anywhere see with Charlie Barker.
I'm saying where you were didn't matter. He was so
(08:07):
I mean the movie where he was singing Mario Orlansis
being my Love, right, Yeah, Bars Whittaker was actually acting
and singing, you know. And Uh. While I'm mentioning this,
I like to mention a musician who passed away. I
didn't know he had passed away. His name was Bernard, right,
(08:28):
yet he was kind of wild and everything. I didn't
I didn't realize he came out of the church when
he was young. But he was one of the guys
who played uh, synthesizer any way he wanted to and piano.
It didn't matter where he was. I'm sticking on this
where you are location thing. And we have a little
(08:50):
thing we say and talk about in the in Buddhism,
when you're pack your suitcase, you're gonna move somewhere where
you think you you better off. There's a little guy
sitting on the suitcase named Karma talking about what took
you so long, I'm going with you, so you're gonna
take your environment with you. And never giving up is
(09:15):
my model. Never give up and don't let where you
are Foolia, that's it, okay. You you mentioned um being
a practicing Buddhist. You know, one of the first people
that I've ever heard mentioning that they were practicing Buddhists
was Herbie Hancock. Is it safe to assume that both
(09:36):
of you discovered this at the same time or were
you too a part of each other's process and studying Buddhism,
because you know, even back I remember interviews as early
as like nineteen seventy one of him speaking of his
Buddhist practice. When did you become a Buddhist? Well, actually
nineteen seventy three I took up the mantle so to
(09:59):
speak to Japan without you know, and my wife at
the time, Anna Maria, she's the one who passed away
on t wa uh. She was nailing something on the
wall one month one morning in California in our first house.
(10:19):
She's nailing something to the wall, and I said, what
you're doing? Three o'clock in the morning, And she said,
I just came from Herbie's house this afternoon, and he
was telling me about this uh practice of Buddhism. And
what we learned from Herbie was he learned it from
Buster Williams. He learned about it from Buster Williams. But
(10:41):
the will and said he learned about it from his wife,
Ronnie Vernica Ronica Williams, when when he was about fresh
out of high school. And uh so, Herbie said, why
don't you check it out for your daughter's sake, because
our daughter was born with these seizures and all that.
(11:04):
So we thought maybe we would check out the philosophy
and see how it connects with our daughter. Our daughter
did pass away at age fifteen of a grandma seizure
here in California, But the wise practitioners of Buddhism say
(11:26):
she came with brain damage. But she completed her mission,
and our mission was to expose her parents to the
ultimate law of life, the ultimate law of of their life,
that that you are eternal and stuff like that. There's
(11:48):
a lot of the same things. But she came to
wake us up, even though she didn't she only had
a few words, a few words to speak and stuff
like that. But her life was not in vain. So
we're looking at a lot of other people who who
kind of think something is in vain. There's no used
(12:10):
to do this. I'm gonna give up on that. I got.
I got a bunch of shirts out here it says
never give up on the shirt, so that that's uh,
it's not so much trying to be perfect and be
a religious person. In fact, some of us who practice
(12:30):
this Buddhism get wilder. Oh hey, I mean, you know,
or anything where the report comes next. So, of course,
because the thing is, especially with the history of of
our people in this country with black people. Yeah, I
always wondered, you know, how hard of a decision was
(12:55):
that to me, you know, because I think that black
people were always trained to, you know, like we must
only follow Christianity and any other philosophy. Like Maurice White
would tell me that when he was sort of practicing
his spirituality that it was really controversial with everyday blacks
because it wasn't under the trope of like God, Jesus
(13:19):
and Christianity. But for you to do that so early,
especially now that we're more open to I guess following
our hearts and following traditions and ways whatnot. You know,
how was was this easy for the people around you,
your family members or your friends or whatever like to
(13:41):
except where you were going, or did they just look
at you like an alien Like I was forty or
forty one, where when I thought, you know, I think,
I said, I got it together. I know, you know,
I can, I can take care of myself. It's there's
a point where some of us think we know everything.
We can end the living in it's coming our way.
(14:02):
And when I was forty, I stopped to think about
my daughter's seizures, how she came into the world with
the brain damage and all that, and I was I
started thinking about this. I said, wait a minute, there
is some stuff I don't know about. So I started
listening to what some of the people I knew. Of course,
(14:25):
it was her being Buster Williams, my wife at the time,
Anna Maria. She started working on this listening to philosophy
before I did. And I when I went on a
tour in nineteen seventy three, July three to Japan, and
(14:46):
when we all left with what report we all left,
and when stopped in Hawaii, I stopped in Hawaii behind them,
took another plate and got in a small hotel by
myself because I was actually handling alcohol. So I want
to be myself. When we had two days off before
(15:08):
we did a concert in Hawaii and just get ripped.
I not just getting ripped, the sloppy and everything. I've
got me a new suit, pantamat suit, and I walk
around acting like I can handle everything. And I went
from nightclub to nightclub, sitting at the bar talking philosophy
from Jian philosophy with people and all that. And they
(15:30):
told me, once you start to do this practice as
a Buddhism Buddhist, all of us jumps that you have
in you was gonna come out and say it's it's
like a water hose and garden water hose that hasn't
been used in a long time. And when you plush
(15:51):
it with this philosophy, the first thing that comes up,
there's a lot of leaves and rusts and everything like
that out of your life. And I was saying, whoa
I thought I was? You know? So I was. They
even had a what do you call a missing person
call or me in Hawaii couldn't find until it was
(16:12):
time to play the gig, and I went. I got
myself together and then joined the band and they said,
you scared us to death. Man with so uh that
I had gone to a temple in Japan and what
do you call it? Received something called I don't want
to see me the words, but Gujakai. Tina Turner has
(16:34):
a book out on this stuff. She has a whole
explanation of stuff. And I like that. And I received it.
And the temple it's only a little baby and myself
and the baby's mother and the temple, and we received something,
and we said we're gonna practice this practice. So anyway,
the thing about playing different once you start doing stuff
(16:58):
like this a different. What Herbie said was he heard
Buster Williams take a bass solo one night. Maybe you
heard about this. I mean, this is classic. He took
a bass solo. They were playing at the Penthouse in
the Seattle Can't Panhouse Niper when when Buster finished, the
(17:22):
applause wouldn't stop. That it was one of the longest
applause the Herbie ever heard. And they got an the
dressed room. He said, Buster, what you've been doing? Explained
to him a little bit about what he's doing. So Herby,
I want to try what's going on. And that was
that was when he got what he called that hit,
(17:46):
that dead, that dead right. Okay, okay, okay, okay, that's
how changed his sound. Okay, well, actually people, he didn't
want people to think, when you start practicing a philosophy,
you to get hit records. No, but but Herbie got
a hit before the water. Another man hit the one
(18:09):
dude a million. But I always thought that Herbie had
a lucky star over his head ever since I met
him in nineteen sixty three. He's one of those guys
in school. There's another guy with the school with you,
like Herbie basic where he's a diplomat now. Anyways, anyway,
(18:30):
just like Herbye, they had this lucky star over the
head all their lives. I said, Man, nothing nothing funny
ever happened to them. Good. But I learned quickly you
can't count your blessing by watching your neighbor's treasure. Truth
(18:51):
you call it. I took to myself, shut up and
be cool, and I stopped. I stopped talking. I went
to the meeting. We had meetings at our house, had
a lot of meetings at our house. People and a
lot of name dropping people who came to the meetings,
you know, people who wanted to be movie stars and
all that wanted to get this, but uh, you'd be
(19:16):
surprised the names are. You know, I'm not gonna say
the names, but if everything every now and then I
would say a name of a person who came to
our house to a meeting, and somebody would say, oh,
your name dropping, Now your name dropped. But I cut
them off and say, no, I'm not name dropping, I'm
(19:37):
named lifting. One question I had for you, mister Shorter,
how did you get the nickname mister Gone? Oh? Yeah,
I was in the Brazil and we all had We
all went to Brazil to do festival there, and then
the band came back to the United States early to
(19:58):
do this record. I ate another month in Brazil while
they were making a record, and they were making some music.
They were the name they name did it after me? It? Joe? Come,
let's call this one, mister Gone. I really liked Joe's
piece Young and Fine on that on that album. Time. Yeah. Yeah,
(20:27):
I briefly met you once, um at a festival. I
mean this is like twenty years ago or twenty maybe
twenty five years ago, and just briefly talking. And I
believe you told me that you didn't even start your
craft and playing uh, clarinet and saxophone until you were
(20:49):
like well into your teens, so you know, and I
really did because we were in passing. I always wanted
to ask you. So you're telling me that I would
have thought that you would have came out the room,
you know, with with with with the accent hands. How
did how did you discover your talents at such kind
(21:11):
of a late stage in your life? Well, actually, I
used to play hookie from when I started high school.
I played hookie go to the movies, walk and walk
past to school and going down to downtown to movie
theater and I used to go see uh, like two
(21:31):
movies and the stage show. And the stage show was
at the theater is called the Adams Theater. And there
was Dizzy Lesbi you don't know a Jacket and his
brother Russell Jacket, and the thing called the Jazz at
the Philharmonics. I'm I'm I'm watching this stuff listening. I
was about fifteen then, and there's a music store right
(21:55):
around the corner from the high school. I used to
walk by this music store and look in the window.
I was majoring in art and I found myself cutting
classes just go looking at music, look at the instruments
in the music store. Then I got me uh for
a dollar something dollars fifty A little thing looks like
(22:19):
a submarine called a tonette, a plastic It's like a
plastic flute at six holes. I got it, and I
used to walk around the neighborhood blowing on this thing,
like do do do do? Do? Do do do? And
my mother said, whenever she wanted to get me to
(22:41):
come into a dinner, she oh, she had just opened
the window, and here where I was, here where I
was at, But I know where you're at. So then
I started fingering this thing. No instructions. I just saw
do do do you know? Playing with it? And when
I went to see the stage shows, I hear them playing,
(23:03):
Um they did they did? Did they? And I mashed
the holes on this little it looks like a submarine.
I mashed the DoD do do? I try to mash
what I heard? And then I looked in the window
(23:23):
real close one time, and there's this clarinet sitting up
there among the other instruments are vertical. And my grandmother
and my mother got the money together to get this
cl clarinet, which cost ninety dollars. It was a used
clarinet in the name. When I said somebody's name Elizabeth
(23:45):
new Jersey on each part of the clarinet, they get
taken apart and I got that class. I still have it,
You still have it? Yeah? WHOA and I and I
and I went into the music store. The guy who
rand the music store was also he ran the pit
man af they had him said, and when they had
(24:05):
the shows, his name was Jack Arnold Press and here
to take me to the back room, and h started
to clown that lessons lord, learning to read notes, counting
and all that cat pat in your foot and all
you know, stuff like that. I did that one year
with him. Then he got me a tenor saxophone too,
(24:28):
because he said, you make more money you played clarinet
and tenner the music union again. So I got to
mess around with these things. But I you to talk
playing at home about six hours a day, not every day,
but six hours of the school days. I stand up
(24:52):
in the room and just I turned around in the
six hours going by him, so working on scales stuff
like that. Uh. Then I listened, So what was out
there listening to Charlie Parker all the guys are blanky
colonious monk what they were doing. And then I got
(25:13):
I went to the library and took took out records
a classical and uh, I got one of the discal
less h Montaka And also I got Stravinsky's The Writer's Springing. Yeah, yeah, Yo,
(25:34):
that explains everything. The fact that you would shed the
wrights the spring explains everything all right to our listeners
out there, um real quick. Stravinsky's compositions used to cause riots. Ye,
Stravinsky was the edim of his days. Stravinsky was the
bomb squad public enemy of his day. Like he would
(25:54):
make the audience angry with clashing notes, and you know,
he was the free jazz of the classical era. And
when he created Writes a Spring, I mean just name
all the controversial records that you can think of from
Miles Is on the Corner to it takes a nation
(26:15):
of millions of olders back to even when like you know,
Radiohead sort of turned their kid back on rock with
you know, with kid like all these experiments and it
made the audience angry. But you know this, that was
like one of the first examples of opening a portal
of creativity where suddenly you didn't follow the rules of music.
(26:38):
You had to just you know, you followed your heart,
and so you started that. The nineteen oh nine they
were in Paris when it first did the writer spring
publicly and it's a musician. I think it's a masto something.
They weren't sitting next to another composer and when the
(27:00):
writer spring started, he was annoying. He said, why this
stunsky started with the bassoon where up high? It's an
ugly sound or something like that, and the other guy said,
(27:21):
he quiet, let's let's see what he's doing. And every
time I played Acus, I said, started with something that
would irritate people. I heard that somebody got killed in that. Uh. Yes,
it's it was like the first mosh pit or the
(27:42):
first first act of violence out of music. Uh. You know,
I always bring that up when people talk about like
violence in hip hop, and I'm like, you know, we
learned about classical music. I think started a long time ago. Listen,
let me let me ask you, and I'm skipping on
a little of the place, but since you kind of
barret it up, I gotta ask you. At the time,
(28:05):
did you feel like Miles was going through his own
Stravinsky phase in terms of like where he was taking music,
you know, at the time when Miles was really stretching out,
and you know, I kind of feel like that phase
started with the last jazz record that you guys made,
which was the neffertd album. Can you just explain one thing,
(28:28):
what was the philosophy behind the title track Neffertdi, in
which you norm Miles took a solo and you let
Tony Williams and Ron Carter just run rampant with experiments
like that was just unheard of at the time, Like
(28:49):
or were you guys just like roll the tape, you know, TiO,
start the tape and just start going, Like what was
the philosophy behind that particular that particular session which you
guys did a seven minute jazz soul song with no
solos in it and just let the rhythm section go crazy.
(29:11):
I feel like he had something. I knew he was
getting a prop I knew he was. I love it.
Let's go. You see this lefort you're holding up the
statue and effort. I made this when you I was
fifteen years old. Wow, And I got it from the
(29:33):
school before they got it, got a hold of it themselves.
You know I made this. No, this is a a
replica of the one that they have in the Bell
in the museum. Yeah. I got it from the newspaper
and I toughted it even clay and plaster. And this
(29:55):
is it from nineteen fifty one, nineteen fifty, from nineteen
fifty to now. Yea, it is hitting talents. That's beautiful.
Our listeners out there, mister short is we're on zoom.
Of course he's holding up a white sculpture of nupported
and you did this at fifteen. Oh yeah, this is
(30:17):
on YouTube and people are going to see that sculpture.
So that's good. I didn't I didn't know how heavy
the thing is heavy. That is beautiful. What caused you
guys to do the repetition thing with no solos? Oh yeah,
well Miles when we started playing it, Miles, so it
was indicating with his body movement. He keept doing like
(30:42):
again again again, so we go do the melody again.
He kept going and then Tony Williams started doing like
the drum thing behind him. Don't need any solos. I
don't need the solo because when we played it in
person later when Chip Korea was a pianist chick would
(31:06):
play it's solow here and there on it. But it
was he said, he said that there's nothing can match
the melody. Yeah, what we heard. I went to Sweden
and got one of those awards in Sweden m hm.
And they meet an arrangement of Netid, which is the
(31:30):
baddest arrangement I've heard so far. With the orchestra there.
They man, they tore it up and they didn't they
didn't solo. They just did the melody and and put
clothes on it, put a costume on it. That was
like like only the Swedish, the Europeans and they're artistic,
(31:54):
you know. They were saying we understand. It was saying
we understand where where you want to go and where
you could go? How about this? So with Miles, it
was after Neffer td that Miles did the bitches brew
(32:15):
m It's like he he also he also wanted to
start writing music where he would get get the publishing,
you know, royalties from publishing songwriting and stuff like that,
and that that when he got from Betty I'm a
down Home Girl. That's that was hers her lyrics and everything.
(32:42):
He made the disse a melody out of stuff like
that place, and uh, that's when he crossed over into
concert halls, from the nightclubs into concert halls and his
his The funny thing he said, one of the first
things he did when he crossed over was a dull
(33:06):
Grahams the ice House or someplace in California in the
dressing room. We only played like a half hour, and
he got good money for it. So what it was
we were used to playing two hours or an hour,
and this is the first time we played thirty minutes.
(33:26):
And the mouse was looking at this the paycheck that
he got from the frontal organization. We were all sitting
around and we didn't look at it ourselves, but moles
are looking at the paycheck. He said, damn, thirty minutes.
He looked at us and he said, I feel like
the seats. But that's when he started, you know, we talked.
(33:53):
He went to Europe. He started getting the conscious in
Europe and stuff like that, and that's when he met
Sesame Tyson. But that that's that part. But before Miles died,
we all met in Switzerland. M I need to help
the thing with Quincy Jones and all that stuff. Wallace
running was playing Miles as parts on the trumpet and
(34:15):
all that, and the Moles got me and Herbie together
and said what he said, what would it be like
if we got together again? And we said when you
were talking about yeah, we said, we said, ruh ruh.
Wait a minute, you're trying to tell me, because the
(34:36):
thing was I asked Quincy, like, how did you get
Miles to even agree to even go anywhere close to
that type of jazz, which you know he had he
had somehow avoided, you know, for least in that traditional
sense of playing jazz. And you're telling me that, Miles Davis,
(34:57):
you and Herbie actually spoke of wanting something together again.
Miles was thinking about what would we sound like after
weather Report and after Hunter and after all that. But
Herbie's been to and I've been what what what kind
of stuff could we uh conjure up? That's what everybody
(35:17):
want to know. Yeah, yeah, So where he went to
the thing called dud Bob with an easymobile, you know,
and then he got two guys and Marcus Miller and
then they got those guys together, you know, guitar players
and stuff like that. But it's his body. His body
(35:38):
kind of dictated dictated where he was going to go musically,
and he would have to rest while playing. Okay, and
uh to start a whole new something. You know, it's
been a lot of work, but we wasn't supposed to
(36:02):
get together again. Really, but that thought was like like uh,
lighting and lighting a match in a dark tunnel. I
have a question about Miles um. Has he offered any
sort of opinion on your work with Weather Report during
(36:25):
that period. Yeah, he did say that was the only
thing happening, he wrote, He wrote in a newspaper. He said,
the only thing that was happening out there was Weather Report,
Oh oh wow. And he mentioned some pianos like happening
as a pianist is Herbie Check, a couple of other
(36:49):
pianists that you know, uh, band leaders and everything. That's
the only thing happening. When he was going for the
six years, and he'd come to see us at the
Theater in New York, hm, and people didn't know who
he was. He come backstage, they didn't know who he was,
(37:09):
and he said, let Miles in man. Really Yeah, oh wow,
that's crazy of your your first round of solo work
like the like the Schizophrenia album, The Night dreamer Alsie
and I like, my favorite is Juju. But can you
(37:30):
talk about what the creative process was in doing your
solo work, because I would imagine that if you were
in Miles's band, like I would imagine that, I know
some band leaders that were frowned doing what they were
called moonlighting, like doing your own solo works. I always
wanted to know how Myles felt about like you and Herbie,
(37:53):
especially like doing your own solo work on the side
at Blue Note while still being in in this this quintet,
you guys were so tight as a unit. How often
would you guys practice as a band during that period?
I mean as a Miles Davis band or our own band? Well,
I mean just I guess I'm asking how are you
(38:16):
able to you know, maximize creativity what Miles Davis and
also subsequently do your own solo stuff on the side.
I think where Miles he welcomed that that it would
shine on him, you know it would Uh we do
our own publicity, so to speak, which bounced off on
(38:41):
the Miles Davis quintet was like, Uh, we didn't have
to call Miles to ask what a retainer while we
were off when he's like in a hospital or something
like that. We were like self kind of self sufficient
in that way. A lot of people wanted to play
(39:05):
with the Miles Davids rhythm section, you know, they wanted
to make records with the Miles Davis rhythm section. But
the guys were like Furby and then then there's McCoy.
You had another way. You had the top guys doing
things together and it made it a little difficult for
(39:28):
anyone to crash that to or tear it down or
uh speak against it, you know is wow, they got
open June even art break. He played on one of
my records. My first records played the drunk. So there
(39:51):
was that given takes respect built in. But then later
when people start counting counting the beans, that the royalties
what sold and what didn't sell, and that there was
an effort I think on the record company's part to
(40:14):
um break up any kind of alliance that we formed
that they couldn't get their hands on. They were discouraging
the build up of like a u'd and Duke allingas
(40:35):
band for life, but people starting a band from Duke
Ellingons band or starting their own band from count Bass
Yeah Erskine Hawkins and you know all that they were
together almost like a life sentence. You know, they're the
only ones who graduated in a sense, would be like
(41:01):
if you went into movies like Tap Dancers or the Vocalist. Yeah,
have you seen that Gers documentary? No? Yes, yes, but
she became the band leader. M Yeah. I was just
going to ask you because I've seen you in a
lot recently and especially Lee Morgan and Miles, and I
(41:24):
was wondering, as an architect, how do you feel in
this moment of documenting all its history and do you
feel like they're getting it right? They're they're doing part
and parcel put it that way. Okay, what would you like?
There's another one coming out on myself a second, your
(41:45):
second documentary about about you. Right, it's a second. No,
this is no, this is a full one. Okay, come
out soon and this is uh I can say what
is the title rep thus far? The title is uh
Wayne Shorter, zero Gravity. I'd be remiss if I didn't
(42:09):
speak of your your work with the Jazz Messengers. I
just want to know in general, is the Jazz Messengers
like your first actual like professional big gig, just in
terms of you being with with the unit Yeah, yeah, messengers.
How do I know you're from You were from Newark?
(42:32):
I know that. You know, America was in such a
chaotic sort of place, especially for black people. What was
it like as as a person that was able to
leave America and start touring the world and going overseas
and all those things to see what effect did that
(42:53):
have on you? Well? Actually I was working with Maynard
Ferginson's band, you know, Maynard focused in the Big Band
about three weeks and one time we were working at
Birdland and the waiter said, there's a telephone call from
Wayne Alive Blake. He's on the phone, said. Lee Morgan
(43:16):
had come to New York, New Jersey and played a
session with John Coltrane, and as on midnight, the Lee
called my house. He heard about me. He called my
house for I'd like to go and play with them
in the last number, still playing a night in Tunisia
at a nightclub in New York, and I went, got
(43:38):
my stuff together and played on the Last Number with
Lee Morgan and John Coltrane. Yeah, there was a jam
session and Lee had been going around to the jam
sessions listening to people, and we worked in New York
with Dizzy get Leslie's big band with the drummer Charlie
(43:59):
Person from Nook. You know, I was at the place
called sugar Hill, by the way, that's the place I
saw Billie Holiday before I went in the army. He
was at sugar Hill and Nook too much, right, everybody? Yeah,
the one this month. They was all in there. And anyway,
(44:20):
when I got out of the army, that's when Lee
called me and said, I'm playing with John Coltrane and
Nook at midnight. We're gonna play one more number. Can
you come? I heard about you, so I went and played.
Then when I got with men Our Fergus, this band,
we were playing in Canada at a race track, the
(44:43):
Canadian Exposition we call it, and doing the break I'm
a Jamal and Sarah Van. They were doing a break head.
Comes Lee Morgan running across the red the race track.
He came up to me. I'm sitting here in the audience. Yeah,
you want to be with the Messengers. You want to
be with the Messengers. I said, yeah, to come with
(45:04):
me and I went to a tenth. That's all right, Blake,
you said, man and I said, he said, Lee Morgan
is the Apple of my eye and I trust what
he said. Kid never heard me really, he said, you
want to be in my band. So he called Birdman,
(45:26):
who was still Wayne with Men of Ferguson band. He
called Birdman and told Man of Ferguson the Wayne is
a fighter pilot. He's not a he doesn't work with
bombers like Big Man fighter pilot. So the man, I said,
he can find somebody to take his place out. Don't go,
(45:47):
said kay, And I found somebody real good cat too.
And then I flew from there to French Lick, Indiana,
be accessible with the Messengers, Miles Davis, all of them, Cannibal,
they're all that. And I'm That was the start of
my my gig with the Jazz Messengers. And here's one
(46:07):
of the big piece of advice that I got. We
got from Mark Blakey when we went to Europe. Our shit.
Don't try to razzle dazzle and then and uh and
uh you know people and how much you know about
jazz and bebop and how much you know don't try
(46:29):
to show off, yeah, show off and everything that it's
just the only thing they're gonna remember. It's your behavior.
He said, Okay, your behavior found cool. Me and Lea
we were cool and everything. So the behavior it's like
(46:51):
a guide for us wherever we went to just be cool,
play and play what you play. He was the coolest
dressers to everything, you know. And uh so I was
looking with them for five years, five years with them,
jazz messenges and uh just be cool, don't pack your foot,
(47:17):
don't pack your foot with at Lee Morgan, documentaries everything. Nah,
that was great. One question I have for you, mister Shorter,
was about one of my favorite saxophonists, cannon Ball Adderlie. Yeah, um,
you talk about just your work with him and like
you guys, relationship, what was What was he like? So
(47:39):
cannon Ball was he was cool. He was very kind
of not not jovial, but he liked to have a
good time. He liked to he liked to have the
bounce in his music. Did it didn't It didn't, did
did it? You know? And uh yeah he had a
(48:02):
nice uh combination with Miles and all them, and I didn't.
I didn't. There was the combination of J. J. Johnson
Sonny said and Miles too. Then I was real short.
I did these people like Cannonball JJJ? I played on
J G. Johnson's last record, Cannonball. I saw him last
(48:30):
at the Blue Note in the lower part of h
New York near the Holland Tunnel, and uh, him and
his brother Nat we had conversations and something about life
and stuff. But that thing about being a school teacher,
(48:51):
that that was very evident in his uh mannerism when
he talked about music and stuff like that, he was
still attached to being a teacher. And Florida. I know,
you're talking to the schools in Florida something like that.
And but but then there's there's the other ones, this
(49:12):
one and they had, uh, there's there's some outo saxophone players.
Then my my brother was crazy about one name, Ernie Henry.
And he said there was Danny Quebec who did the
opening of Around Men like do do do do? Do? Do? We?
(49:33):
Did you know that? I que back to nephew. Uh.
The names of people that had sound World they are
Gray World, Al Gray whatever and and it's a Ward
Gray and uh, my man, just who did the realm
And like we sitting standing around the jukebox, Waldoor Gray
(49:57):
had that that sound this sound up. A lot of
the guys wanted that, said guests got that sound and
Wardou Gray and Uh the President. Let's say you had
a discussion with Lesser Young in a nightclub up in
(50:17):
Canada and he on his night off or doing a break.
I was looking for something to drink in the club
when I'm doing a break. He took me down into
the cell of the wine cellar. He said, let's go
downstairs and get some real cornyac and we just talked.
I didn't tell him I was in the army. I
(50:38):
didn't tell him I was a musician. But he we
talked a little bit. The first and last time I
saw Lesser Young in person the club on Young Street
and uh and Toronto, Canada. Yeah that that club was
something so. But other than that, these conversations were Billy Epstein,
(51:02):
who says something backstage, he's telling us something. Art is
introducing us to these guys, and Lewis Armstrong and then
Lionel Hampton and we're shaking hands with uh Man and
the Lionel said, right, he to call everybody Gates, Hey, Gates,
(51:23):
write something for my band. Gates, write something up the
Gates nis what he heard me and to all of
these people, Man, I'm telling you is Duke Ellington. We
were not shaking hands with these people and moving them
through and it was a uh, what's his name, Dad
(51:44):
day st Q, let's go ahead. Wait, I don't know
that time, Jameron, Tad, Jameron and okay, the names man.
And there's the ladies too. Oh just shut up. Where
(52:06):
there's some ladies. The Sweethearts of Rhythm, Yes, yeah, the Sweethearts, Yes, yes, yeah,
and something about the clouds and knew that's original. It
was just clouds of Joy or something like that, The
Sweethearts of Rhythm. And there was Slyde Hampton the Slide.
Hampton's sister glad It's Hampton played trump. She played like
(52:30):
Hilly Joe Jones and this Glory of Bell, who was
married to George Coleman. Gloria Bell played the bass. I'm
having a jams giving some homework. You are giving all
these listeners some homework. I love it. References. Yes, yes,
she had a place seven harm called Connie's when we
did jam sessions at Connie's, and right across street was
(52:53):
with uh Smalls Paradise. Yes, we go back then played
to the jam session. There's Nancy Wilson sitting in the audience.
She was the secretary to uh uh Dane Carroll's husband
at the time. Wow kid of stuff standing stuff was
(53:16):
going on and uh and the guy that Denzel Washington
played as the gangster, the guy who ran. Yeah, he'd
be sitting under the bar checking out who's coming is
going because they had the double park Eldorados outside and
some people came inside, some of these high rollers. They
(53:39):
would come inside and want to hear Miles played one
note and as Myles looked fast and the guy put
down the big dollars hundred dollars Joe and said that
did it. I came. I came to hear the mouth
and I heard him and then me this documentary is
gonna be good. You need to script too, We need everything.
(54:03):
This is kind of a two parter, but when we
come back for part two, I definitely want to get
into um your work on your opera with you know,
the great Esperanza Spalding and Dick Ingenia project. And so
I thank you for this education. We're gonna comment with
(54:26):
a part two of course Supreme with a great Wayne
Shorter and we hope you guys come and join us. Okay, whatchlap.
Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts
(54:48):
from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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