Questlove Supreme: Pharoahe Monch

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
Think's the thing that sucks up roll call in the
virtual sense is but yeahs, you know, like if everybody
just went around did their thing without the yas.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Oh, that's the fun part, some part of roll calls
laughing at each other's roll call.

Speaker 3 (00:23):
We played it, but the guests did. There's live but
obviously recorded so they can hear it.

Speaker 4 (00:28):
We played back.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
They figure it out.

Speaker 5 (00:30):
Figure it out?

Speaker 1 (00:32):
All right, My good people, Welcome to another episode of
Quest Love Supreme. Life's great rabbit hole, as I've been
dubbing it. My name is Quest Love, your host, and
of course we have your supreme effect. We got lia Yah.

Speaker 5 (00:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
I have to say, Layah, you're in Los Angeles right now.
How how's it going for you out there?

Speaker 4 (01:02):
It's just.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
I'm scared to answer that question.

Speaker 4 (01:05):
I will say this.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
We are allowed by the time this comes on air,
you know, by the.

Speaker 6 (01:09):
Time that comes on air, we'll be allowed to eat
outside again. Because I hear that we were the only
ones on the country that couldn't go outside. Look at
these nails, couldn't get I went to a black market
nail salon. They had a black curtain on the window
yet a knock on the door.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
This is what we're doing, an underground doing. Yeah, be careful,
all right. When I last spoke to you, it was
one in thirteen people. Now it's one of eleven. I
don't want the number to go down the lane. One
in seven.

Speaker 6 (01:37):
We're getting better, We're getting better.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
Be careful, all right, sugar, Steve. You cool?

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, you know I'm in the same city you are,
New York.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
We're yeah, but things are problem for you. Got a
new network, a new show, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, I mean everything's going fine for me personally, but
you know, city's a mess, country's a mess.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Whatever if we've always been a mess, man, But you
know that's that's.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
When you share was last month. Don't do that.

Speaker 5 (02:04):
I'm not scared.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
Hold me, hold me anyway. I built the bar in
my garage.

Speaker 5 (02:13):
Oh you ordered online.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
That I ordered online? Set up right. It has neon
lights and ship Yeah. Yeah, I needed something to do,
so I did it. Just a one of one. You
have a bar for one? Yeah, my kids sit at it.
It's a little misdirection. Yeah, you want to keep your
kids away from the bar.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
Yeah, and they're going to go that way.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Just want to be able to drink in every single
room in his house, including the garage.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Absolutely, so we do COVID. We well, shit, one episode,
we just might have to take over Drink Champs and
you know, bring up bring out the alcohol here. Absolutely,
West Love Supreme. You know, was that a plug? I
see Layah frowning that I gave another podcast a plug. Anyway,
how's it down in North Carolina?

Speaker 5 (02:58):
Man, I'm goodle bro, Which it's good. I mean, they
trying to open up the schools. Wait, they thought about
doing it because the kids had they testing, like the
state tests, and I didn't send my son. I was
just like, fuck that, like hein going, and they were
just like, well, he can make it up. We'll try
to make it up later in June whatever. I said, whatever,

(03:19):
he ain't going. And literally the next day after we
like when we pulled him, we was like, cause he's
been home the whole time. Literally the next day they
had like two cases pop up. And it's been they
we do it now, but we pretty much get texts
and emails from the principal every time a new case.
And for about the past like two weeks, I've getten.

(03:39):
It's been a new case, like every day yep, and
so I'm you know, we've been in the house, man.
I mean I still do my walks around the hood
and everything. But I'm cooling, bro ladies and gentlemen.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
We have a distinct honor of dissecting and exploring the
third rail. We're bringing of one of the most I
will say, probably one of the most feared, respected and
astonishing mcs. Don't I don't want to use bad colloquialisms

(04:11):
when describing great you know, they always say, like, this
person is a monster. Oh man, he's a killer. No,
probably an assassin. Yeah, yeah, no. I feel our guest
today is probably one of the most beautiful things about
the culture of hip hop be it as one half

(04:33):
of one of the most loved duos of the mid
nineties with Organized Confusion. His own catalog is nothing to
sneeze at. He's constantly pushing the boundaries of what one
can do in this art form. He's usually the favorite
of your favorite mcs. I don't know if that's a

(04:54):
tired cliche, Like I wonder if mcs get tired of
hearing themselves being.

Speaker 5 (05:01):
Nah nah man. That's an honor. I mean, that's respected.
That shows you respected by the people. They really do
the craft, you know what I'm saying, And that's I mean,
that's the highs honor.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Well, he's here with us today, so please give it
up for the one and only Pharaoh munch To. Yes,
that's what I hear.

Speaker 4 (05:20):
I didn't want to see it.

Speaker 3 (05:20):
But where are.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
You right now?

Speaker 4 (05:25):
I'm in the basement of the house and Queens, just
chilling out through a wintering mix of snow and ice
right now, And like Fante said, man, I take my
walks and then it's back inside. You know, I'm compromised
because I'm mathematics. So I just been like.

Speaker 5 (05:42):
Same here, bro, Yeah, yeah, same here as well. I
can't I can't wuk around.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
So you've been loyal to Queens this entire time for
your whole career, pretty much.

Speaker 4 (05:51):
I moved. I moved out to l A for a
couple of months to work on stuff and it was
cool for a couple of months, then to Brooklyn and
then back to Queen. So I'm back in Queens.

Speaker 1 (06:05):
Okay. So I know that our audience cannot see your
zoom right now, but I will. Yeah, I was gonna
say of all of our guests on the show. You
probably have the most interesting background right now, well next
to biz at least you have a very interesting action
figure collection behind you right now.

Speaker 4 (06:26):
Like I kind of lost my mind during this pandemic.
Like I said, I've been diligent, so all I could
do was like all the stuff and go crazy. So
I went batshit crazy with the action figures and it
kind of work. Man. They keep me kind of stable, man.
I love my action figures. There's some rare pieces that

(06:48):
I caught h Cat on Instagram, who I followed. H
put me onto a lot of a lot of different
dope joints and a lot of different companies, and I
just lost my mind, Like I just got these, uh
these air Jordan's for my Miles Morales in the Male
just now, like you know, so I just.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
Wait, wait a minute, Jordan's. You're dressing up your action
figures in Jordan's exactly. And they're just as they're rare
to get as well, they're hard to get.

Speaker 4 (07:18):
They're hard to get. They just they just redid a
couple of companies who do them custom for the for
the you know, Miles Morales, Spider Man.

Speaker 3 (07:29):
Please tell me, please tell me they're at the same price as.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
No no no, no, no, no no, yes, it's just five
hundred dollars. Not no, that's interesting. So like your your
your your passions with the action figures, any anything else
in the in the pop culture kind of barrel.

Speaker 4 (07:54):
I'm not a collector, a little bit on the sneaker side,
but I calmed down with that. You got a little
bit ridiculous. I'm not ahead, but I will catch a
couple of pieces if it's if it's something interesting. But
this during this whole thing, man, it's just been movies
and action figures and action figures.

Speaker 5 (08:16):
What's the last joint? What's the last joint you saw? Movie?
Vise that talking?

Speaker 4 (08:23):
I mean, I've been watching a lot of stuff over
and over again on repeat, revisiting, revisiting, and what I
really really blew me away was the Mandalorian series. Okay,
that just took me. You know, I waited so long
for the Star Wars series to get good, and I
never thought it would, and the movies were starting to

(08:43):
get so disappointing. But then this series was just like
it was. It was good and bad in a way.
I felt like I had the wait waits I get
got this old for them to get this good with it, you.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Know, So mandalorian Is is worth investing in.

Speaker 4 (08:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
Yeah, I'm gonna ask you when died it get you?
Like when it was? When it?

Speaker 1 (09:03):
When it?

Speaker 4 (09:03):
The was it?

Speaker 3 (09:03):
Episode one?

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Was it?

Speaker 4 (09:05):
It was off the rip like I was, I was
shining away from getting that the Disney app. I'm like
I'm not. Yes, Then everybody kept talking about it, and uh,
yeah it was worth Mandalorian is worth getting that for
It's that good.

Speaker 5 (09:20):
Yeah, I'm gonna make a suggestion, bro, if you have
a chance, whenever you get a chance, check out the
sound of Metal. I think you would love it.

Speaker 4 (09:27):
Oh that's the that's the joint where the drummer loses
is hearing.

Speaker 5 (09:30):
Yeah, man, what that ship? Oh my god, wait, lew
a story again? You know, like for real? Nah, it's uh,
it's your boy im and he plays a drummer that
loses hearing. It's have a metal drummer, And I mean,
you know, it's every musician's worst nightmare. But that ship
is a great fucking flick. It's it's a beautiful flick.

Speaker 3 (09:51):
What streaming services that It's on Amazon?

Speaker 4 (09:54):
Amazon, like the whole the whole sounds the whole sounds
gaping of how they show you how losing is.

Speaker 5 (10:04):
Incredible, not a sound design. That ship is amazing.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
All right, I'm on it. I gotta see it. I
gotta see it. I just got done Small Acts, so I.

Speaker 5 (10:13):
Haven't watched all of them. I watched the Lovers Rock one,
but I haven't seen all the other ones.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
Okay, yeah, yeah, watching in order. If everyone's most Jamaicans
that I know rock with the second one, Lover's Rock.

Speaker 3 (10:30):
Okay, I'm gonna start with because the other one starts.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
That's a very unique joint. Yeah, but I think you'll
you'll you'll like it.

Speaker 6 (10:36):
But if we shout now a shout out night in Miami,
and then I'm done. Okay, Okay, Riverdale one night in Miami.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
Wait, you're just watching Riverdale. Steve pretty good, Steve, Steve
is good for like it's Steve will be like real
like non like most pop culture things. But then he'll
just come back with like, yeah, I watched Real house
Wives of Atlanta or.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
I don't watch that, but I have a question though,
and then hopefully we could get too.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
Into the show.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yeah, Mandalorian has something to do with Star Wars.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
No, don't don't chat.

Speaker 4 (11:18):
Yo.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
Star Wars been fell off, and they're lucky that we're
still talking about them forty years.

Speaker 3 (11:23):
About Little Yoda, I mean he's not Yoda's not Yoda.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
But yeah, baby Yoda, Yeah, I mean yeah. Mandalorian is
like their series on the Disney Channel, and apparently it's
as good, at least to the people of my age
that are real Star Wars heads, like they're they're very
happy with the results.

Speaker 3 (11:42):
Better than the last three Star Wars movies.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
Okay, I'm on, Yeah, for sure, I saw one of
them that I liked, but I don't know which one
that was, and.

Speaker 6 (11:49):
Don't worry about it. And you forgot it already. Only
saw one? You saw Turn the Jedi fifteen times?

Speaker 1 (11:53):
Oh no, I don't mean those three. I'm talking about
the of the jj Abrams variety, that one. But anyway,
all right, so with okay, were you born in Queens.

Speaker 4 (12:05):
Yes, sir, going and raised Queens, New York, jamake it
to make the South Side, Jamaica.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
Okay what uh okay, so only know my New York
knowledge is just limited to whatever rappers rapping at the moment. So,
like what was your peer area, like, like who what
notable MC's that you would know of that that you
knew of before you became notable or they became notable.

Speaker 4 (12:32):
I mean I was ahead, man, It's like and I'm
and I'm old as ship. So I came up there
in a park game era. So it was like, you know,
urban legend dudes like grand Master Vic and the Boss
Crew and just local hip hop crews that were doing
park James that I was you know, inspired by and

(12:53):
like Nah said, like just way too afraid to ever
get on the mic in those moments. And then it
shifted to Mikey D, the incredible Mikey D in the
l era, and I still was too afraid to get
on the mic and those jams and wasn't ready. And
then by the time you know, I started going to

(13:13):
high school and developing organized confusion, you know, that's when
it was like, uh, you know, large pro and lost
boys and all those cats in the in the area.

Speaker 1 (13:25):
Right, So you were there for the first you have
memories of like the first generation of hip hop and queens.

Speaker 4 (13:32):
Oh definitely, I mean I was, I was shorty, but
it was it was cats jamming. I mean, that's what
what attracted me to the whole thing. Like, you know,
not to sound cliche, but you could hear the music
rocking from down the block and you know, crowds and
forties and you know, you just it'll never go back

(13:52):
to that. And it was an air about that and
even the danger of the shootouts and you know, it
was just a different time and a different feeling and
culturally at that point, I was like I needed to
be a part of this, but I just wasn't ready.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
Okay, what was your family into, Like what type of
household did you grow up in? What was your home situation?

Speaker 4 (14:17):
Yeah? Man, both parents Gospel on the mom's side, jazz
on the pop side. My older brother was heavy into
the rock, which is, you know, while gravitated to that
a lot, you know, deep purple Zeppelin, Rush and all
the whole rest of it. Then my next brother was like,

(14:40):
you know, James Browner and funk, and my sister was
Michael Jackson. So I had the whole gamut, and I just,
you know, just that whole seventies thing I think we
all did, and just soaked it all in. You know.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
Were your parents native New Yorkers?

Speaker 7 (14:57):
Uh?

Speaker 4 (14:58):
Not? There from Virginia and they moved to New York
when they had me.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
You're the youngest.

Speaker 4 (15:04):
I'm the youngest. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
Do you remember the first album that you purchased or
was it all just trickled down from your older brothers and.

Speaker 4 (15:13):
Sisters hip hop album or album?

Speaker 5 (15:17):
This album?

Speaker 1 (15:18):
I want to we'll start with that album because I
have a come to Jesus moment with hip hop. So
your very first record.

Speaker 4 (15:24):
My first record I purchased was Saturday Night Fiva.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
Okay, that's real.

Speaker 4 (15:38):
When I was.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
I got that ship when I was seven, you know
you Okay, that's understandable. Concert wise, do you remember your
first one? Did you go to concerts a lot when
you were a kid or see performances?

Speaker 4 (15:52):
I didn't. I wasn't a big concert goer when when
I and I regret it, you know, because I missed
so many opportunities and I'm so ashamed, Like I never
I never saw Prince live. Like it's just so I
know your relationship with that guy, But it's just things

(16:13):
like that that I that I regret. Also, you know,
it was we were in Queen's and it was a
journey to get to where everything was anyway, So I
was kind of like nerd do too, So I wasn't
venturing out that much back then like that.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
Okay, So what was your come to Jesus moment at
least with hip hop as far as that's concerned, Like,
were you just casually wrapping around the way or was
this this thing where you were watching him sees on
the block and decided that's what I want to do. Like,
what was your introduction to that world?

Speaker 4 (16:49):
Was I was a crazy ill asthmatic, and I knew
I had to make a choice that wasn't physical in
terms of what I was going to do with my
my my livelihood wasn't happening. Fire Man wasn't happening, garbage
Man wasn't happening. So I was an artist. So I
went to High School of Art and Design, Big Up

(17:12):
the Kwame, Big Up, the Prodigy, mob Deep. Yeah, I
went to that same school, and in that school was
just a plethora of culture, black books, graffiti, just hip hop.
Culture was rich at the time, and I just, you know,

(17:33):
before it became you know, cool even to be and
MC or get a record deal, I knew I had
to be invested in the culture. So I'm very thankful
for those moments because you know, I was pop blocking,
and you know I was. I was way too heavy
to get on the ground and do a windmill and
some shit, so I knew I couldn't be a breakdancer,

(17:54):
but I was just trying to get into the culture
however I could in that timeframe. And it was around
eleventh grade that I was like, fuck the art shit,
I'm gonna express myself through this, this this, this hip hop.
Even then I was beatboxing. I didn't you know, I

(18:15):
had no voice, I was. I was horrible at it.
Met Prince Paul had my friend tied Stick who had turntables,
and I was like, yo, let's go and try and
develop something, made a couple of demo tapes, took him
home and listened to him. And I'm thankful again to
be able to listen. You know. I listened back to
those tapes when I took him home, and I was like,

(18:38):
you're horrible at this shit, you know I do. It
was the wacky shit I ever heard. But I was lucky.
I was lucky to be able to hear that. I
wasn't good and it didn't sound like the dudes in
the park, and it didn't sound like the stuff on
the radio, which made me say you gotta work at

(18:59):
this sh bro You know, I was able to say
that to myself before I let anybody hear what we
were doing.

Speaker 5 (19:05):
But when you and po, who's the oldest between.

Speaker 4 (19:08):
Y'all, I'm probably the oldest by a couple of months.

Speaker 5 (19:12):
Oh okay, well y'all. Y'all, y'all both went to the
same school. Y'all was in the same class, web gotcha,
and both of you were art majors.

Speaker 4 (19:20):
Oh man. Back then, they had what was called rotation,
so we were able to do photography, computer graphics, architecture.
It was just the school. It was an amazing, you know,
ray of different cultures from kids from different backgrounds. It
really shaped obviously a lot of the people who went

(19:40):
to that school. So that was a blessing in itself.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
I know, or at least I know from the folklore
of it all, that I believe you were one of
the last artists to work with Paul c. And I
assume that this is pre organized or at least pre
record deal, pre Hollywood basics. Where did he enter the
story and how? You know, he's one of the most

(20:07):
loved mythical figures that I've heard of in the hip
hop like everyone has these like incredible words, but I
can never get any story about his work, ethic or
anything about him, like what was his role in Well,
you were simply too positive before organized confusion, right, I believe?

Speaker 4 (20:27):
Yeah, man, we were simply too positive. We had just
left like a local label situation and went off on
our journey to start working on our first demo. I
thought I was finding my voice at the moment. I
was starting to get some props with the bars as
an MC, and we went into the legendary twelve twelve

(20:50):
to work on some demos. In twelve twelve at the
time was probably seventeen dural large professor in the corner,
just on a machine. I didn't know what he was doing.
And we had went to the studio with some records,
laid some vocals, and during the time we were laying vocals,

(21:12):
Paul c was an engineer at twelve twelve as well
as a producer. He walked into our session to get
some wires and he was like, pardon me, excuse me,
I don't mean to thrup his session, got some wires
and he left. Next day I got a phone call
from him. I don't know how he got the number,
and he was like, I heard what y'all was doing.

(21:32):
I think y'all got talent. I would love to work
with y'all. And I had asthma attack. I was so excited.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
Did you was was he at least you know, I
don't know what year this was. Was this at least
post ultramagnetic?

Speaker 4 (21:49):
Yeah? Right, he had that, He had that status of
working with Ultra super Love a C and even maybe
some early rock him stuff at the time, if I
can't remember. So it was just you know, if you
can imagine, it was just like the ultimate phone call.

(22:11):
So we went in and worked with him, and I
bought in some different things that we were working on,
and he was a stickler for truncation and programming, you know,
gave a lot of tulige too large. And I credit
both of them for a lot of that early SB
twelve one hundred manipulation. It was very early on and

(22:38):
they were really doing some real amazing work with that.
And why I love Paul C Is that I went
in to do a song and like a lot of
MC's at that time, I went past the sixteen bar measure.
He stops the session, closes the session and sends me home,

(22:59):
like when you learn how to count bars, come back
and talk to me. And I thought, I was wow,
you know, I was getting a little name at the
time and nobody had ever told me some shit like that.
But he was just like, who's your favorite, you know artist?
I'm like, Peve was like, go listen to those records,

(23:19):
learn how to fucking rap, learn how to count. Until
you do that, don't come back to the studio. So
that was the first like dude who wasn't a yes
man and started to help us shape our voices and
understand how to make records. We made really, really four

(23:41):
good songs for the demo with him that went on
to touch Barbado's hands and Russell Simmons' hands and you know,
but more than that, you know, he just used to
invite us to his crib. He had a record, insane
record collection, played drums. It's like, even in this conversation,

(24:01):
there's no need to mention that he was white, because
he was just an entity of like some soul spirit
or some shit, you know, and so funky and whatever.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
And back then was that the novelty like, you know,
how does this white boy know our shit better than us?

Speaker 4 (24:23):
Or like how you know, you know, it's funny, man,
It's like, you know, you have to put these things
in context in that moment, I don't. I don't think
we gave a fuck, Like we really didn't. Like it
wasn't even yeah, it wasn't even a question. We were
just like, we need good shit. And I think too,

(24:45):
you know.

Speaker 5 (24:46):
And I think too. At that time, hip hop was
so kind of young. I don't even know if we
were thinking about it as quote unquote ours, you know
what I'm saying in terms of black people, like, yo,
this is our shit. It was. It was so new
that if you found someone else that was in to it,
whether they were black, white, whatever, it's just like, oh
they fuck with hip hop just like me. Like that

(25:06):
didn't happen untill later on.

Speaker 4 (25:08):
Right, And so we developed a personal relationship outside of
the music. I remember us going to see Batman and
you know, him putting the raisin ats in the popcorn
and like yelling, not up on this shit. I'm like
raising this in the pile. You know, just cool, cool moments.
And then the tragedy is we finished the demo. It

(25:32):
was it was touching people's hands and we were getting
a buzz and he got murdered, and that's kind of
like the first of a line of kind of like
traumatic tragic things that happened. And so me and Prince
you know, had to go forward and try to get
a record deal, but we didn't have our guy or

(25:52):
kind of guide. And that's why that first album is
like really kind of experimental, because in that moment, we
lost the master ranger and we just was like taking
records to the studio and ship and looping stuff and
just doing ideas and you know, went back the fuck

(26:13):
did bar count you.

Speaker 5 (26:14):
Know, yeah, noted gases. That was no bark out.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
So basically, had had a situation not turnout, had a turnout,
he would have probably been the main producer of Organized
Confusion absolutely.

Speaker 5 (26:36):
Wow wow wow wow.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah. Well that's the thing now. The way that The
Source first introduced you guys to the world, like they've
made such a big deal of Disney having a record
label that you know, it was kind of like, wait
a minute, there's a rap group. Like the way they

(27:01):
did it, I didn't see it as like Hollywood basic
like just I don't even know why they had to
put like a subsidiary of Disney Records, So I kind
of like pushed it to the side, like I lowered
my expectations a lot, and I jumped on the you know,
once I heard instrumentals and whatnot, then it was like, Yo,
that Disney rap group really is dope.

Speaker 5 (27:23):
Like I just kept because I think because real Wrap
the only thing they had on Hollywood was like it
was y'all and I remember you Lifers group, like the
made the album.

Speaker 4 (27:36):
Life was a group. I produced the record for them.
Me and Prinson produced the record for the We literally
went into the prison and had to do that ship
and security prison. That's a whole nother I've never heard.
So you know, we're on the label and we got

(27:58):
a little buzz you know from you know, Underground Ship
Fudge bud YadA YadA, and they're like, yo, you know
Dave Funk and Klein. Let me just give you a
little history on him, right. It's responsible for like Brain
Tribe and Jungle Brothers over to the Europe scene, very

(28:19):
instrumental and and that whole thing and breaking a lot
of things over there in Europe. He's that, he was
that dude, and he was a visionary, and I guess
he got himself a record label over there and got
himself a nice team with Tim Reid, you know, and
so it was it was, it was live. They just

(28:39):
didn't have this aesthetic, you know. The aesthetic was.

Speaker 1 (28:46):
Wait a minute, the well bench that he will never
share with me. Do you have? Do you have it?
Do you.

Speaker 4 (29:03):
So? Going to the prison Roadway State Prison in New Jersey,
the group was called Lifeless Group because all the members
was doing life sentences. Dave, Funk and Klin thought this
would be a great idea because you don't get no
harder than cats that are doing life in prison. And

(29:28):
I was like, I don't know if this is a
good idea. Way cut the check, will go produce the record,
and I never forget going in there my first time
in the maximum security prison. They slammed the gates behind
us and they tasked me and Prince with picking from

(29:52):
ten inmates the five that would be in the group.
Can you already see the tragic stake that that is.
So these guys had to rap and we had to
pick which ones it was the best. Wow, I was like,
this is this is this is going to go terribly wrong.

(30:14):
And I remember, you know, we picked the five a
week the music. They were working on the songs. When
we go to come back with like, what's up with
the other two guys we picked? Shanked Wow, no longer

(30:35):
in the group. You have to pick another two And
you don't even know.

Speaker 5 (30:40):
It was that wild and so you did y'all like
make the beats in the prison and everything, or like
tracked and everything.

Speaker 4 (30:50):
We we tracked some stuff in the prison, brought like,
you know, portable recorder to the prison for them to record.
Oh my god, y'all killing.

Speaker 5 (30:59):
Me all the years we known each other. I had
no idea Life's group dude.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (31:08):
Man, we did two songs on that project.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah, I f wow.

Speaker 5 (31:14):
Did like you ever keep in touch with any of
those guys afterwards?

Speaker 1 (31:17):
They riot or whatever or.

Speaker 4 (31:20):
You did.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
Next you know, you should see the look at his eyes,
like next question believe.

Speaker 5 (31:32):
Wow?

Speaker 1 (31:34):
Okay, So were there any other options besides Hollywood Basic?
And why were they chosen uh to be the home
of organized confusion.

Speaker 4 (31:45):
Barbido was an r at Death Jams at the time.
He was like, this demo is insane. I love this demo.
I love these guys. I just did uh him and
stretched of the day. He's still you know, my peoples
and my fans just been so many years we've been
tight and cool. And he had the demo and he

(32:05):
had Nase's demo. He took them to Russell and he
was like, these two demos are amazing, and Russell Simmons
rejected both demos.

Speaker 1 (32:15):
Oh god.

Speaker 4 (32:18):
Positive, simply too positive and not turn them both down.
And then we were like, what are we gonna do?
What are we gonna do? Got the offer from the
Hollywood Basic that was kind of really nice offer for
underground hip hop back then, and we were like, hey,
fuck it. Well, well we'll fly to We'll fly to

(32:39):
disney Land and you know, and record whatever. And then
last minute I seen Russell in the club and he
was like, you know what I've been listening to you guys,
demo call me tomorrow. Let's have a conversation. So we're like,
oh ship death Jams, oh ship and uh. We called

(33:04):
Russell Simmons the next day to talk about a deal
and he said, first off, simply Too Positive is the
worst fucking name in hip hop that I've ever heard of.
Gotta change the name. Gotta change the fucking name. We
were like, nah, it's STP. You know. STP you know

(33:26):
the oil even like that shi it is the most
fucked us name I've ever heard him.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
It's nose.

Speaker 4 (33:36):
I'm signing with that name. We got to come up
with a better name. You gotta come up with a name.
That's how we listen to Organized Confusion. Took us forty
eight hours seeing an Organized Confunction record Organized Wait, that's.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
How you named the group Organized.

Speaker 4 (33:56):
Confusion yep from the Confunction album. Yep. We were like
oxymoron boot boom boom, sounds good. You're there's some that
you could do. These moves. I could do that move,
you could wear this, I could wear that. Wow, let's
do it.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
And you went back to Russell like okay, we changed
our names and now what's up?

Speaker 4 (34:18):
Okay, we changed our names. Now what's ups? Like eighty grand?
Basic deal was like one hundred and fifty grand, and
so we took the money.

Speaker 5 (34:32):
Hey, okay, as you damn will should have I see
because this is what in ninety what like you remember
like what you're it was a ninety probably ninety ninety one, right, yeah,
because that's.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
Oh that period of jam I will.

Speaker 4 (34:53):
You know, I just feel like I heard these rumors
are getting shelved. And ship never coming out and these
horror stories and I was like, I don't want to
go down that road.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
You know, that's crazy. Well, at least then because I know,
like Reak and I used to dream of being on.

Speaker 4 (35:09):
Deaf Jam like everybody did.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
Yeah, so it was such a like going to Motown
like so for you to make the what you felt
was the wiser decision of the group, I mean that
that's that says a lot of what was Deaf Jam
at the time, for you to walk away from this
fabled hip hop utopian space and just go to Mickey

(35:34):
Bouse's new home.

Speaker 4 (35:40):
I've made more terrible decisions on the way on the
road too, But I don't know, man, I don't know
if that I don't know if it would have worked out.
Who's to say, you know?

Speaker 1 (35:50):
Do you you know? I know at least from if
I get it a little bit, then I know you
get it a lot.

Speaker 5 (35:59):
Do you kind of.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Roll your eyes at like super fans who salivate over
you know? I mean there's so much, especially with well,
I guess with all three with equal NOx and stress
and and the self titled record the folklore of it
or like is it? I know, like sometimes Tarik is frustrated,

(36:24):
where like every MC after MC comes up and praises
as work, but then it's like, you don't necessarily see
the evidence of of you know, your heart work. And
I mean, does it get tiring hearing that year after
year of like how much you influenced me and how
much you influenced me, and yet this couldn't translate in

(36:46):
the cells and you know, at least to that level
of what it was back in ninety one.

Speaker 4 (36:52):
Definitely. I think after the first record, we were a
little bit perplexed because we saw a little bit of
you know, play and whatever, but we were inexperienced, So
we chalked it off to that, you know, I'm wanting
to believe you have to stay in love with the shit.

(37:12):
But I can see how during that era a lot
of cats were finding out more and more about the industry.
Was kind of not sure about this girl anymore, like
kind of falling out of love with it. And I
kind of decided that can't do this unless you're gonna
love it, love it, love it, love it, regardless to

(37:33):
the outcome. And so I stayed in love and we
moved on from the self titled record to the Stress Record,
and I think we you know, started to really find
our voices around that record, you know, got a little
more love and pushed a little more forward with the

(37:54):
Stress record and a couple of joints off there in
terms of folklore and different songs on that record, and
then I think, you know, we had it with Mickey
Mouse after that record, and then we moved on to uh, yeah,
we moved on to Priority, where it was. It was

(38:17):
weird because at the time they they had kind of
signed a bunch of established people and they I didn't
see where they didn't break any records, and I was
feeling like we still needed to be broken as a group,
even though we were two albums deep. And we worked
on that last one and we really put a lot

(38:38):
into it, you know, I was trying to do this
whole story thing and back forward, you know, put a
lot of effort into it, a little bit of love,
a lot a bit of love. I think people saw it.
It's very difficult to do those type of records and
make them make sense anyway.

Speaker 5 (38:55):
I love the record.

Speaker 4 (39:00):
Yeah, you know a lot of people would be like, yo,
that's my favorite one of the three, but you know, it's.

Speaker 5 (39:06):
My favorite one of the three, which one Equinox because
that was that came out like ninety seven. So that
was my freshman year at Central, and I remember getting
my refund checked and running the goddamn Willie's Rickorsent tapes
with him. I bought a gang of sh I bought
the man, y'all.

Speaker 4 (39:27):
I remember when I first Yeah, I remember when I
first met you. You were like, Yo, I love this
record and I love the skits and so on and
so forth.

Speaker 5 (39:35):
Yeah, who did Yeah? Who did the Sir Winston Howard?
Who was that that?

Speaker 4 (39:40):
Yeah? No, no, no, so my my my guy Brian Fleman,
who's a writer. Now, he found this guy in the neighborhood,
like I think he was in the liquor store and
this dude was like and he was like, hey, man,
you want to do some skits on this album? For Wow,
you just had his voice and we just incredible. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah, hey, it just it just hit me that I
believe the first time that I heard of O C
was on your first Yeah. So how yeah? How did
how did he get down with the click?

Speaker 4 (40:24):
And Oh? She had moved from Brooklyn across the street
from from me. In the neighborhood. You know, back then
we were playing you know, two hand touched in the
street and still playing basketball and all that ship, and
you know, I would knock on people's doors and be like, yo,
we get in the game. You want to play. And

(40:45):
you know, one day he was like, yo, I rap
and I was like, oh God, and he rhymed and
I was like, holy ship, Oh this kid might be
a problem. And we just you know, started hanging out
and we would we would trade and spa and he

(41:07):
would be like, yo, I wrote something. And he would
come over to the house do verses and wrap over,
you know, pause tapes and sit and I was like, yo, man,
you got it, man, you got something special. I just
think he for me. Oh. He always had a knack
for pocket, you know, just just command of pocket that

(41:28):
I could never obtain. It's just something people have that's
just they lock in, you know.

Speaker 5 (41:36):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (41:37):
So yeah, he lived right across the street from me.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
One the the the Stress album, I always wanted to
know this. This shows you how much of a do
weeb I am. I believe your Stress review and the
source was the infamous Tupac hell Raisor issue m H.

(42:05):
And I also believe that they had you write hip
hop's very first op ed.

Speaker 5 (42:11):
I believe. Yeah, when you talk about like the rhymes
you rolled and you clicked on the sp and.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
That's funny. You remember that part. I just remember the
Chinese chicken wing take out Chinese food reference. That's how
different we are. This is supernerves. I remember the food reference.
No that you know that was no history, won't won't

(42:41):
pan out. How crucial that that issue of the Source
was to hip hop's future, you know, because basically I
feel like that that Tupac cover is what built the
myth in the legend of Tupac, and you know, it's
one of their highest selling issues. But I also remember

(43:03):
it simply because the the you know you guys had
to leave review for that album, and you know, that's
the first time that I heard of like like a separation,
Like okay, so there's underground hip hop and then there's accessible,

(43:24):
easy to understand hip hop.

Speaker 4 (43:27):
You know.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
It was almost as if the reviewer of the album
was kind of at a crossroads because he and his
heart felt that this was the perfect album he was
listening to, but because he knew that it was going
to go over everyone's heads, he might have to take
a mic away.

Speaker 5 (43:47):
So it was yeah, it.

Speaker 4 (43:48):
Was almost like we got four mics.

Speaker 5 (43:51):
Yea, yeah, I got four, I remember that right.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
But he basically said I would give this album a five,
but because this is so above the head of anyone
else that I, you know, I just have to take
a mic away because it's too smart.

Speaker 4 (44:04):
I was crushed. That's another That's another moment where I
was like, you know what, I don't know if I
want to do this shit anymore because I'm starting to
see that, uh, this shit is not based on the merits, so.

Speaker 5 (44:20):
On the music either.

Speaker 4 (44:21):
Yeah, and so that those are the things like in
the relationship, if you will with the music, you start
to question your commitment and your love to it, and
you have to keep re assessing and and recommitting yourself
to it. But that was one of the moments I

(44:42):
was like, you're going to start this article off with
I would have gave them.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
And I kept like I I guess I vicariously was
living through you guys, you know, because at that moment
we were just starting to make our record. And then
you know, when I read that, I was like, oh man,
he's basically saying that this album's too smart for its
own good. And had they just did a little bit

(45:12):
of terra firma down to earth, like make it normal,
I would have easily shown why this is a five
mic record. And that always horned me. But I never
ever got to ask you how that felt like you're dope,
but you're you're too dope, so we have to penal
penalize you for that.

Speaker 4 (45:33):
It was crushing. I mean, I don't I don't know
if I I don't know if I expected a five.
It was a solid record, and I thought we had
a chance to get a five. And then, you know,
I would have been fine if you wouldn't have put
that bit in there like ooh, these guys almost moved

(45:55):
me to a boof. But I'm not gonna do that
because you wrapped about part of holes of molecules and
fucking right may be. So you know, you remember.

Speaker 1 (46:06):
Who the writer was on that review?

Speaker 5 (46:08):
Was it like the original mind squad?

Speaker 4 (46:10):
Dude?

Speaker 1 (46:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (46:12):
It was.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
Damn, that's that's the one. What's it running? Bro ship
my my all my sources at at at work.

Speaker 5 (46:20):
All right. I remember around the time Pharaoh you I
read an interview around the time of equinox and you
were saying that. I think Poe was saying, like, Yo,
let's get back in the studio, let's go at it again.
And you told him like, look, man, I gotta be
real at my heart really and in this ship you
know right now? What was that like? Yeah it was.

(46:42):
I can't remember what it was it. I mean, yeah,
he was and I read it. I was like, damn,
like he being real, you know what I'm saying. But yeah,
what was that like for for you and Poe? Kind
of that for y'all to both be in different places,
and how did that affect you both, you know, personally
and professionally in terms of relationship.

Speaker 4 (47:04):
I mean we're good and we was good. Then I
felt it only right to go to him, you know,
talk to him how I was feeling. I was crushed
at the results of the last record. We put a
lot into it. It ended it ended with the group
getting dropped from priority, and that kind of hurt my ego,

(47:26):
but gave me some time after we had worked so
hard on that record, and I was like, I definitely,
you know, talking to myself and fleeping on it. I
definitely don't feel like going back in the studio right now.
That's the last thing I want to do. So I
need some time to kind of recoup and assess my

(47:49):
relationship with music again. And because I knew it was important.
You know, you need to love, love, love, you need
to love this shit, and I knew I loved it,
but I need to needed to take a step back,
and you know, I had that discussion with him. I'm like,
I'm tapped out, Like I'm really tapped out. I need

(48:09):
to take a hiatus. And during that time, I realized
that I just had a lot of personal things that
if I was to recommit myself to this, that I
needed to get off my chest that I even felt
would be unfair to drag him into, because you know,

(48:33):
in a group, you're sharing so much, and you're you're
making these, uh compromises, and you're making these, you know,
decisions collectively to put records together. And I just came
out on the other side like I really felt it
would be selfish to drag him. I feel like I

(48:54):
would be dragging him into these ideas that I was having.
And so went back to him and and was like, yo,
I think I'm gonna try to vomit some of this
stuff out and he he was like, yo, man, you
got my blessings, you know what I mean? So I
went on that journey.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
I have actually three creative questions about your work in
organized confusion. Well, to start is, how do you guys
build ideas and your songs?

Speaker 5 (49:30):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (49:31):
Well? First of all, even with the production, you know,
do you guys work on beats separate or was it
a collaborative effort? And that fat like, does the concept
of the song come at the beginning or does it
just whoever adds the verse first, then that's the concept
of the song.

Speaker 4 (49:48):
As soon as we landed the deal, we went out
and got us we twelve hundreds, and we started just
banging out beats with the crew of cats and queens
as well who were the organisms and they were they
were working on music as well. And I started going
out to these record conventions, the famous record conventions that

(50:10):
uh you know, Finesse and Large and uh uh Salam
and Tip and everybody would be at and I would
see them in there, and they're my heroes and they
would be buying these eighty dollars records and I would
be like, wow, that must be nice, and we would
you know, look for stuff. And then once I developed

(50:32):
a relationship with those dudes, they started to be like,
you got this, you got this. You know this guy,
you know this guy, you got this. You need to
get this. And started to you know, begin to get
my chops up with on the digging side, and we
started to you know, produce all music, and I gravitated

(50:52):
to what I knew, which was you know, my brothers again,
the weather Report and a lot of the Fusion Ship,
which kind of the landscape of things I wanted to
wrap over personally, and so just started putting stuff together
and taking it to the studio and trying to make

(51:15):
it better and getting with the right for you know,
engineers and things like that. So Prince would make a beat,
we would make a beat together. We would be like
what is this? You know, we would sit there and
be like, what is this song singing? What are we doing?
And or I would come with a concept and be like,
what if we're unborn fetuses and the mothers?

Speaker 5 (51:37):
That was my ship to the in vitro Nigga. I
ran man, I ran the hell out of the damn.

Speaker 4 (51:41):
Song right right, So and then you know, shout out
to Buck Wild and then around that same time, we're
working with OG.

Speaker 5 (51:51):
Two man y'all o G was that Decisions record? I
love that record?

Speaker 4 (51:55):
Thank you. Anton Puchowski was bringing live instrumentation to a
lot of the early shit and just pushing us along,
And it was a collective effort to answer your to
answer your question.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
So I always wanted to know because you guys were
so advanced, like way past where ultramat Netic was taking it,
Because you guys were so advanced and sort of wrapping
outside the boundaries of you know, outside the boundaries, coloring
outside the lines. Was it frustrating to have such not

(52:33):
not limitations as far as what hip hop music could
have been. But I would always have I would have
I could imagine. I always thought of you guys as
sort of like advanced ere hip hop, like future. Well
that's the time I've seen you guys are a future
hip hop that kind of got stuck with the palette
of limited music output. Like if if you guys could

(52:56):
easily figure out ways to program that's twelve hundred so
that you could rhyme seven eight meter here and then
slow down there, and things that you could easily do
now on pro tools, and you know, and reasonable like
this shy yeah and all these so was it or
even things like you know where ghost Face just rhymes

(53:17):
over an album like I always wanted to know, Like shit,
if you guys could rhyme over Frank Zappa or my
Visa orchestra, just like you guys would have been those people.
So like, was there ever musical moments that you tried
an idea that was just like way too ahead of
its time, at least technology wise.

Speaker 4 (53:37):
I was frustrated then, which is which made me happy
because I knew what I wanted to do was expansive,
you know. And I would listen to bands and they
would play a groove at a tempo and then break
it down and do a beautiful transition into a slower,
more beautiful tempo. And I was like, how am I

(53:58):
you know, how are we going to achieve this with
what we're trying to do? And that's kind of what
brought about that Hypnotical Gases song, which starts at one
temple and goes goes into another temple. We didn't know
how to program and at the time, so we started
off with that one loop that that that slow loop

(54:21):
and goes goes into the Fusion Ship. I remember Anton
Chowski having to cut the two inch tape in order to,
you know, get this ship to work, and you think
back to things like that, and he's literally like, I
gotta get this ship right, you know, He's literally slicing
the tape. I know, y'all know, you know. And I

(54:45):
wanted to go and I wanted to go into the
fast beat as if the band was was was doing that,
you know. That's that what was in my head. But
I had no other way to achieve it, you know
what I'm saying, Like, I didn't know how to you know,
which kind of brings this full circle, you know, moving forward.
I didn't know how to achieve that in terms of

(55:07):
the programming in the sample time. I don't believe we
had nine fifties at the time, you know. So I'm like,
how are we going to get this idea out of
my head? And we did it, and it's it's one
of the records that Organized Confusion is most known for.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
Okay with without without uh without without want to be
starting something. How frustrating was it for you as an
n C as an M.

Speaker 5 (55:40):
I mean, I've been I've been doing this show for
a little while man.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
Yeah, yeah, how how frustrating was it for you to
hear just you know, without being condescending like mortal mortal
hip hop fans just salivate over I gave you Power when.

Speaker 5 (56:03):
When you did Straight Bullet like years already did Straight
Bullet like how and didn't have to tell people that
you were good. That's something I hate about I gave
You Power. It's like I'm a motherfucking gun. The song
I was Gonna Dodge, Yeah, hip hop hip hop abody.

Speaker 4 (56:25):
Anybody ever told that that? People hate that intro to
that song.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
Between between I Gave You Power and the way that
Dre says NAS's name fucking Tray, motherfucking.

Speaker 5 (56:42):
Tray and all that lead into like the word yeah,
but that's all right.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
I took half of mic off just for those two intros. Yeah,
but basically like yeah, you know.

Speaker 4 (56:56):
It brings it, It brings it back so many just
what we're dealing with today. From our lens, the fucking
the lore and the love we got for Stray Bullet
was just insane. You know. We would perform that record
and it would be like the crowd would be like insane.
So from our lens, we were getting the love and

(57:20):
the props from that record and the writing and the reviews.
We were like yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. When I Gave
You Power came out, I was like, oh my god,
that's fucking it's fucking premiere, Like what can you say?
And then and then nas is like one of my
favorite mcs, like like like literally that that's just so

(57:41):
uh the rush of people that came to us like hey,
got your ship. Man. Like, But but as a as
a I don't think.

Speaker 1 (57:54):
I don't think to know.

Speaker 4 (57:57):
Right, and that that was That was another thing. The
crew the crews were. The crews were interconnected in different
way because OC was with search Light and it was
you know, but just for real, as a as an artist,
I didn't I didn't feel away like oh man, you know,

(58:19):
I just I didn't get those feelings from it. It's like,
you know, as Tarik says, it's like some still sharp
and steel ship and what you're gonna do next. I
say that to say later in life, I find myself
in the backseat of a range Rover with Naves having

(58:39):
a conversation and now says, you know what, man, A
lot of people you know what I mean say, you know,
they came to me, they say, yo, man, you know
Pharaoh man did that ship before you man, and you
know we had a lot of similar ship d so
you know as the foundation, you know, we need to

(59:01):
you know, we need to. So we had a discussion
about it. But yeah, I never really felt like, oh
my god, that's my concept, Like I never really felt
that way.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
You know, I still maintain that Nos, I don't think
NAS listens to that much at least and most of
them season I know that on that level, I don't
agree with you.

Speaker 4 (59:27):
Because I don't listen to I don't. It's like a
handful of people that I listened to when I'm reporting,
And then do we even listen to people's anymore as artists,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (59:38):
Yeah, season, So how you're going to be such an
expert on I.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
Listened in the off season, but when usually when you're
creating your thing, you're you're in your own you don't
want to listen to other people, so that you don't.

Speaker 3 (59:52):
But if it happened afterwards, yeah.

Speaker 5 (59:55):
I listened to stuff like you have to listen, like
so you know what not to do. Nothing else is
more of just kind of a just like all right,
if I know, like if I'm working on an album now,
I'll listen to Pharaoh album be like okay, I know
not to do this because he covered that already, you
know what I mean, that's how it's far to go.

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Has Riek ever told you, I know for a fact
that a big part of Tarik's development, especially on Things
fall apart, like you know, I mean, there's a period
for those that listen to the show, And I guess
I can ask you this as well, Phararell. If you're

(01:00:35):
creating this music in the mid to late nineties and
the early arts, you know, there's usually in your head
like a jury that you imagine, you know, listening to
this and that you have to have it to that standard.
So I know for a fact that Jesus Christ, like

(01:00:57):
Tarik would run the it out of Equinox like every
night at like religiously, like that was his that was
his rocky music to get him hype for the show,
like literally like it was like I gotta get to
this level. I want this level and this this level

(01:01:18):
of respect. Did he ever tell you, like how much
that that that album into him?

Speaker 4 (01:01:22):
When we when we talk, we just we just do
verses of each other's and different ship and not be
like the fifth to make it all come together like
the Zippo on a butter level, right, just you know,
just amazing ship. Uh, nothing specific, but that, Like you
have to know that. I imagine that when I when

(01:01:47):
I turn in an album that Fonte and Thought and
Broyce and and different other cats, you know, at a
big fucking oak table and they're like.

Speaker 5 (01:02:01):
Now's like.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
Like the last time, like a whiteboard. Yeah, that's real.

Speaker 5 (01:02:11):
What is that?

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
What is that?

Speaker 4 (01:02:12):
So?

Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
What is that in twenty twenty twenty one? Is because
the thing is that we don't have that, Like right now,
I'm current. This will be the first album I created
in which I'm you know, in my mind. I always
kept like, okay, the source is still a thing in

(01:02:33):
my mind, and I have to have that level of perfection,
Like I'm still striving for that four point five rating
that I want even though it doesn't exist now. So
what is what is that for you in your head
when you're creating things or is this now you're just
in the place where you just create for yourself.

Speaker 4 (01:02:54):
That's what I did on this this new project. A
deconstructed all the shit that I don't like and you know,
a lot of stuff I would listen to and be like,
this doesn't have any replay value for me. Why doesn't
that have any replay value for you? And what can
you do when you do your shit that's going to

(01:03:15):
give something some replay value? You know? The the lyrics,
the lyricism work is really really good right now, just
being a good or grade m C. It's just not
good enough anymore for me. It's like, you know, people
can fucking rap now. People have been rapping for thirty

(01:03:36):
years now, more like what you know, what more is it?
You know, just to hear somebody, Uh that's nice? It's like, yeah,
he nice, And then I would kind of drift away
from it. What can what can you do to make
people retain some information? Or you're like, no, I think

(01:03:58):
I'm gonna listen to that that that song for a
second time, and it has to do obviously way more
with the ranging and melody and chorus and bars as well.
So in that time, I'm just like, let me step
away and focus, still keeping in the mind that I

(01:04:21):
want you guys to hear this ship, you know, because
I'm in touch with thought. Towards the end, of the
the record and he's just sending me tons and tons
of shit and I'm like, how does he do this?
Like your record records on records? And then he's sharing,
like I'm so scared to share my ship, but he's

(01:04:42):
just like, yo, I did this ship. Check this shit out.
And it's like, oh my god, and so and so
that's the bar. You know, you you know what your
bar is, and it's high for me. But at the
same time, Pharaoh can rap so fucking.

Speaker 5 (01:05:00):
What, like right, we.

Speaker 4 (01:05:03):
Know this already. And I don't mean that to sound
I reckon. I mean that to say it's like it's
the same thing with the.

Speaker 5 (01:05:10):
It's like the straight A student, Like if you get
straight a's all the time, it's like people don't notice
until you make a bee and it's just.

Speaker 4 (01:05:17):
You know what I mean, like the sort freestyle. Everybody
in the note is watching that ship like y'all ain't no.
You know, y'all ain't no. But it was so monumental
for me because he's he's breaking the matrix in that moment,
look at him. Only somebody who loves this tool to

(01:05:37):
this level would even be able to put together a
string together that level of artistry and lyricism, and so
that that's what's beautiful about the now and getting mature
in this and knowing that you know, I'm on my
Morgan freemanship man, just trying to be the Morgan Freeman

(01:06:00):
and of hip hop.

Speaker 1 (01:06:04):
I never heard it put that beauty. That's great.

Speaker 5 (01:06:07):
And even the thing with that thought freestyle, the thing
that always tell people is like you have to you know,
to your point kind of almost you know, fel about
like rapping up being enough. You know. The thing is
people watched that freestyle. It wasn't that they listened to it.
They watched it, you know what I'm saying. And that
was what kind of gave it the novelty aspect of it.
Because I mean, again us we've been in the know,

(01:06:28):
we've been knowing. But if we if he were to
take those same bars and just spit them over beat
and put it out and be like, yo, I just
let some bars go, it wouldn't have been the same reaction.
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (01:06:39):
People see, I understand what it did for him, Look
what it did for all of us. You know what
I mean, Like anytime somebody come to the table and
they they display that it just reinforces how marginalized I
think lyricism still is. As much as it gets praised,
I still don't think people like even like jay Z.

(01:07:03):
I'm like, y'all still don't understand how good he is,
as much popular as he is. It's just levels of
lyricism that isn't discussing forums that can be brought out,
in my opinion as somebody who's a fan of Fonte
and Jay like this, this is just amazing shit that

(01:07:25):
happens to me an amazing penmanship. And you know, I
think a lot of it goes still to this day,
goes over people's heads. How amazing some of this shit
is that makes any sense? All Right?

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
So I'm gonna not ask you the question that I
hate when journalists ask me this question, So I'll remix it.
Who are your favorite MC's then? And I guess I'm
really asking, is there anyone post twenty ten, really post

(01:08:01):
twenty fifteen that you like? Now prepared for that answer
to be no if it's non, no, no no, So
that's I'll just have you just who who are your
go to?

Speaker 4 (01:08:13):
Like?

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
Who do you like? Really?

Speaker 4 (01:08:16):
Like? I'm I'm trying, you know, I pull from all
of these dudes, But I think Kendrick is an obvious,
an obvious choice because you know, on the on the
album That Touched My Heart, he had an understanding of
very early on that I'm nice, but I need to

(01:08:38):
be surrounded by arrangement and music and all these things.
And he made that marriage and it was a moment
again that that pushed the envelope of what could be done.
Kendrick is one, but just all time, like any you know,

(01:08:58):
I mean, my all time is the same cast of dudes.
It's a rock him and Kane and g rap Rap
being my favorite, slick Rick, who I think influenced a
whole array of people, but they don't get that slick
rickers influence them because of tone. But slick Rick is

(01:09:19):
the voice, he is a master. And Chuck d and
Chris and l is there.

Speaker 1 (01:09:27):
Someone that you feel is over and overrated, overlooked, Like
I'm realizing now that Tarik's main influence is an MC.
He never mentions, well, not that he does interviews. I
didn't realize how much of an influence that Greg Nice

(01:09:48):
is on Tarik. And usually Greg Nice isn't the first
name that comes to people's but I mean Greg Nice
is he He's kind of like a really great tuna
fish sandwich. Like it's not it's not the it's not
the food. No, it's not the food that you like,
Like it's not on your last meal list, but it's

(01:10:10):
consistent and if may right, it hits the spot. But
you just overlook it, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (01:10:17):
And that's exactly that's exactly what I'm talking about. Like
Greg Nice is in the Hall of Fame of and
you wouldn't realize that he could influence a black thought,
but hell yeah he could. He influenced all of us.
He pushed over this area and he you know, I

(01:10:37):
can't explain it, but this shit is marginalized that can
only be discussed in a lyric room. How Greg Knights
can influence black thought, it's very much so. And he's
one of my favorite MC's as well.

Speaker 1 (01:10:52):
Okay, I got one last organized confusing record. I swear
to God, we'll finally get to your solo career within
the first four hours of this. This is this question
I've been dying to know. I have a copy of
Stress that has different music on. Let's organize, not the
protruce Russian sample but there's another version of Less Organized

(01:11:16):
with Tip that I had. I guess I had the
press copy of this Ship. Why was that music change?
That Ship drove me crazy when I first heard it,
and then when I brought the album it was new
music and I was like, wait a minute, this isn't
a version on it, and it's like snuffle up. I guess,

(01:11:37):
like was it real? Was it not real? And anybody
that's been on this show involved with that record? Whatever
Tip name? I asked, was it me? Or did I
remember another version of Let's Organize that never made it?

Speaker 4 (01:11:51):
It's the original version. It's ill, the ill version, and
we will we have that version I do I could
get and see. That's another That's another thing that won't
ever happen again. Is we were in studios, you know
the Drive the studio that was in the Jive building,

(01:12:15):
Battery studios, and we were recording and Tip, you know,
artists would be in difference and Tip just heard that beat,
came into our room and was like, fuck, y'all, I'm
getting on this song. Where's my part? We were shit
and he went in and he just you know, vibed
it out. You know this It got me moving like this.

(01:12:36):
It got me moving. I need to be on this song.
I remember ever could being in sessions in there and
again it was just people flowing throughout the hallways and
that should have never happened again in music. I think
mistakenly I want to say mistakenly, but organically happening because
of different people in different studios. But yeah, we're working

(01:12:59):
on that and it was like y'all got to get
on this song. So that's how that happened.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
Wow, Yeah, I gotta hear that, man, Like I've been
dreaming of that moment. Why was it changed at the
last minute or was that sample issue or.

Speaker 8 (01:13:17):
H I don't know, man, I think I think it
was a label things, you know, we need to remix
this song or whatever, and you know we fell for it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:29):
I mean this is actually this was the jazzier, more effective.
I mean I've DJ'ed it and people danced to it,
so it was it was probably the better decision. But
the way y'all hooked that beat up on that first
Joe Prince Pol did.

Speaker 4 (01:13:45):
That beat, man, if I was driving, I would.

Speaker 1 (01:13:47):
Have drove two hundred miles per hour into a wall
and been happy like that. That Joe was just so incredible. Man.

Speaker 4 (01:13:54):
Yeah, yeah, thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:13:56):
In your time off from in between Equinox to uh
you know, na, what were you doing during that time?

Speaker 4 (01:14:09):
Contemplating my life? Now, I thought, if you're gonna if
you're gonna recommit, you know, on some rocky shit, and
you're gonna do it by yourself, then you need to
really put yourself through the the ringer and the test
of that it wasn't a pretentious thing. Started working on music.

(01:14:33):
I did some demos. I went overseas with Barbido and
Que Unique and destroying those cats or retored retord Europe.
I was by myself. I had a dabt machine and
I was like, and you know, this is me having
a conversation with my owner self. If you really about it,

(01:14:54):
about it, you're gonna press that debt and you're gonna
go on stage by yourself, and you're going to see
if you're about it, and you're going to see if
you got what it takes to be a solo artist.
Because I really, if it wasn't for Prince, I wouldn't
have got into it. Like you know, he was the
conduit obviously to give me. You know, I'm not really

(01:15:15):
outgoing like that, and so I needed to be like,
are you really you know about this shit? You need
to get up there by yourself and not having any money,
and you know, tours in Europe, I ain't have a DJ.
I literally had a portable DAT machine. Wow, and would
be like press play on the portable dat to my

(01:15:36):
intro and walk out on stage.

Speaker 5 (01:15:40):
Hey, it was no break, it was.

Speaker 1 (01:15:44):
Can I ask from one too? Damn? That annoys me?
How burdensome were annoying to you? At least in the
last twenty years? Are those four notes from Simon says.

Speaker 3 (01:16:05):
I didn't say it. I was scared.

Speaker 4 (01:16:07):
I mean, it's strange, man. It's like I know a
lot of artists talk about the disdain for those records.

Speaker 1 (01:16:16):
Yeah, te Spirit or me myself, and I like the
group that hates their hit, right.

Speaker 4 (01:16:22):
But I've really embraced the ship. I've braced the love
of it. I've braced the the way it bought a
lot of people from different genres to that records. I
embraced the festival ship with the record. I embraced the
novelty of the record. It almost became a novelty before
this shit came out, you know, Raucus was late to

(01:16:44):
claim it, and Flex was playing it and Puffy was
walking out to that song at the garden for intro
before I was able to be like, wait a minute,
this is me, you know, and we had that we
had to push forward the reclaim the record, you know,

(01:17:05):
to grab it. So to answer that question, like, I've
decided to love that fucking song and it's brought me
pain too, and and and you know with the sample ship,
but uh I love the record?

Speaker 1 (01:17:20):
Wait you did? Wait? Can I ask a question? Fantee?
Am I the only human being on earth that sort
of associates that record and that sample that is also
on Ladies Sings the Blues, And as a person that

(01:17:41):
has watched Lady Sings the Blues like twenty times when
she's getting when she's getting arranged and fingerprinted in the
beginning during the opening.

Speaker 5 (01:17:48):
Creditsky okay, the music in the.

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
Background is it's the same thing. So it's been used
over and over again.

Speaker 4 (01:17:58):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
The thing was that I know when the lawsuit came on,
it's one of the Godzilla people and YadA, YadA, YadA
and whatnot. But I don't know, like I knew that.

Speaker 5 (01:18:10):
Some public do not public domain.

Speaker 1 (01:18:11):
Yeah, I knew that Lady Sings the Blues, and I
believe like there was almost some Gilbert of Sullivan Bismarck
Marquish it coming going on where they were trying to
go extra hard on you from ruining the the legacy
of this this fictional dragon. And I'm waiting a minute, No,

(01:18:32):
Lady sings the Blues. So it's it's like, what was
that whole ordeal? And I got mad James Murdock questions
for you as well with succession.

Speaker 5 (01:18:41):
But anyway, man, man for real, for real.

Speaker 1 (01:18:46):
Let me, yeah, just start with that, like with how
did that whole thing, the whole lawsuit thing come to be?

Speaker 4 (01:18:55):
You know, I was a fucking monster movie buff and fan,
and my best friend, who was a DJ for Organized
Confusion as well, Tossick calls me and he's like, yo,
I just came back from Tower. I got this CD
with the original shit that we used to love back

(01:19:15):
in the days, and we used to run on from
school to watch the four thirty after school movie shit.
I used to have the four thirty after school Karate shit,
and he used to have the four thirty after school
Monster joints with Gamera and Kong and all of that.
I got the soundtrack to the sounds and all that
stuff that was on there, and I was like, I'm
coming right down right now, and I go down there

(01:19:39):
and I listened to it at his house and I
just heard like some some notes and phrasings, and the
whole CD is amazing. It's a couple of things that
I could have chopped off of there, but you know
that things that that out to me. And it was like,
oh man, there's this intro. Every DJ loves an intro
to his song. This is just classic hip hop. And

(01:20:01):
I can set it up where I have this intro
to this song and then this drop on the one,
and then I'll just rock these four beats, do it in,
do the four beasts and put some drums on it.
Just rocking in the room and listening and I'm like,
did you do that? Sp yes, sir. And then that's

(01:20:21):
you know, and then I just had the four notes
and then I didn't have enough time to set up
the intro that that's where Lee Stone comes in. I'm like,
I gotta bring you the ship and then we go
and we work on the jigger, jigger and all the
rest of the ship. So you know, I'm just yeah,
listen to the record, and I'm just like, you know

(01:20:44):
what this is. You can only fuck this song up.
You need to tell people what to do. You need
to be direct, and you need to write. You know.
I wanted to write a rhyme like like how I
felt with kind of like ll that people remember the
rhyme and you do the rhyme and everybody saying the rhyme.

(01:21:04):
You know, up until this point it's intricate and it's
a lot of gymnastics, and people would be staring at
me at shows like, oh nice. I wanted to write
something that you know, the whole crowd is like, I'm him,
you know, I'm him when I'm saying I said, I
could do that shit in the Marryland if I was

(01:21:25):
doing that song. So those are the two things I
started with. Push come to Shove, get the record done,
and the bare bones are the record, and I take
it to Raucus and I'm like, I think I got
one before I made that record. Again, if we put
it in context of what's happening in music at that time,

(01:21:46):
at radio and labels, I'm looking at the scope of
the shit and I'm like I think I could. I
think I could hang out with these guys in my way.
New York City had a place to break records, which
was the top. Know that shit doesn't exist anymore, and
so I'm factoring all of this in when I'm thinking

(01:22:07):
about the song. You need to get this record broke.
You need to move people. It needs to be hard,
and it needs to say you know a couple of
things on it. You know that that could change things.
It needs to be aggressive anyway. I take the record
in Headquarters. Piece of Headquarters was that raucous at the time.

(01:22:27):
They just went crazy. They was like this shit is crazy.
I remember Headquarters.

Speaker 5 (01:22:31):
So the record was done before you even went for
Rocus even heard it like, this was done before you
were signed to Raucous.

Speaker 4 (01:22:37):
No no, no, I was signed, and I was you know,
I was like, I was telling them I could, I
could make records that can go with what is happening
on the radio right now an hour in my way,
you know, I felt like if this is the illest
things that's happening right now, it was like halla, halla,

(01:23:03):
I'm like, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 5 (01:23:07):
I hated that damn.

Speaker 1 (01:23:08):
So you know what I like it.

Speaker 5 (01:23:11):
I like that era, like holla, holla, can I get out?
And all them records was kind of kind.

Speaker 1 (01:23:17):
Of back then, I didn't like it, but now.

Speaker 4 (01:23:22):
Like hardcore now.

Speaker 3 (01:23:26):
It because you heard it so much. You didn't like
it because the radio player back to back to back
to back to.

Speaker 4 (01:23:31):
Back that you know exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:23:33):
I didn't like it the first time I heard it.

Speaker 3 (01:23:35):
Oh damn, yeah, you so that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:23:37):
I like it for the first time.

Speaker 5 (01:23:39):
That was it.

Speaker 4 (01:23:41):
And that's another a misnomer, Like all the cats that
Racus was, what's fucking with those dudes. It's not like
we were like hating you know, I like you, right, uh,
But they drew this line and you know, cats that
I knew on that side was like, yo, you bumping
your ship and the whip And I was with these

(01:24:04):
dudes and they playing you and kual Lee and and
most in the car and they doing the ship and
they rocking with y'all ship too. Like I don't think
it was a bigger disparity in line between the two
genres at the time as it was made out to be.
Of course, I was fucking Big and Jay and Javu
and all that shit, like who who wasn't. I mean,

(01:24:26):
I'm from South Jamaica, queens. That being said raucus, I knew,
you know I was. I was where I wanted to
be and where I needed to be and was working
on this song. I brought the record and I don't
mean to be long winded. No love the record. I
love the They loved the record. Jared was like, I

(01:24:48):
don't know about this titty thing. You might want to
change the titty thing because you know the female fans.
If you could just go back in and rew the
titty thing, it was weird.

Speaker 3 (01:25:02):
Every time it came on, we was like, wait a minute,
what am I doing?

Speaker 1 (01:25:06):
Yes, I was like, what y'all doing?

Speaker 5 (01:25:09):
I love it.

Speaker 4 (01:25:12):
I literally went back into the studio because I wasn't
a jackass artist. I'm like, let me let me you
know see if I could rework it. And I was like,
fuck that ship, man, leave it how it is. It
is what it is. It's an unconventional chorus because it's
extra long and all the ship and then it gets
into some other ship with the itty bitty ship. I'm like,

(01:25:34):
leadership man, it's feel it feels good and we left it.
They rocked with it, and I came to them with
the business side, and there was notorious there, like business
wasn't just executed on a high level. And I brought

(01:25:55):
the samples in and whatever, and it was like, uh,
you know, this is saying we don't really have to
you know, cons about the boot the book, and they
dropped the ball on the business side. It's not like
I hit what the fuck I was doing. I was like,
here's the CD, here's the paperwork, here's a ship, Like,
let's cut a shit that it could pop if you
feel in it like that, we need to do it.

(01:26:16):
And it was kind of like.

Speaker 1 (01:26:18):
So you're saying that. They just thought, like we're raucous,
you know, under the radar, it's only going to be
in twenty thousand units. This will sell at fat beats
and write, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:26:28):
And then came radio.

Speaker 1 (01:26:32):
Okay, well, I was gonna ask like, did you have
relationships with Brian and Jarrett and about to say Rupert
James Murdoch at the time, because it's only I mean,
do you watch Succession, Uh, the HBO kind of.

Speaker 4 (01:26:50):
Drama about the Murdoch family need to mourn it?

Speaker 1 (01:26:55):
Yeah, like they they the character that's playing the James guy,
like you know he's going through his you know, his
post hip hop phase. But now that I've watched that.

Speaker 3 (01:27:07):
Wait, I'm sorry, connected dots. Wait what are you saying
right now, a'm mirror. Are you saying that the Murdochs
are connected to Raucus? Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 1 (01:27:14):
James Murdock, Oh, yeah, the youngest son of Rupert Murdoch
is the the kind of deceived money for Raucous Records.

Speaker 3 (01:27:22):
Shut the fuck up, James.

Speaker 1 (01:27:29):
Actually, you know, James, I forgot James brought Raucous to
Wendy Goldstein. So at one point like, yeah, that's how
most got on the label.

Speaker 3 (01:27:40):
Ship, like the most conscious rappers.

Speaker 4 (01:27:42):
W Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:27:44):
The irony of it all is that, yes, the youngest
Murdoch song son, James Murdoch was was one of the
heads of Raucous Records.

Speaker 5 (01:27:54):
And I first heard that and from an LP song.
It was one of his records. It was an LP
A company for I can't remember, but he had made
a mention of and I was like, holy.

Speaker 1 (01:28:03):
Shit, like you wasn't on the fun Crusher plus.

Speaker 5 (01:28:07):
It might have been on Fun Crusher plus yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:28:10):
Yeah, so yeah, So if you start watching the show succession,
which is, you know, kind of mirror. It's it's like
McDowell's and McDonald's, like we the Vernock family, but that's
who it is. Like one of their sons was like,
you know, I mean not wigorous, but you know he's

(01:28:31):
oldest steeped in the no, the youngest steeping the hip
hop whatever. So I always wondered, like what the relationship
was between the artist and those three at the time,
because in my head I thought they were like that
it was strictly a backpack. I didn't realize like.

Speaker 4 (01:28:49):
How it was money it was. It was heavy money
flowing through.

Speaker 5 (01:28:55):
Yeah, I know, not enough money to clear samples apparently.

Speaker 4 (01:29:02):
Exactly exactly, so have they handled her?

Speaker 1 (01:29:08):
Have they handled it?

Speaker 4 (01:29:09):
Now?

Speaker 1 (01:29:09):
It's like it has it been cleared or dealt with
or the song just that does not exist anymore unless you.

Speaker 4 (01:29:16):
Already had it. It doesn't and it hasn't been cleared.
And I own that album and I own that recommended
back in my possession and thank God for that. And
during this pandemic things, where.

Speaker 5 (01:29:34):
The is that?

Speaker 1 (01:29:40):
Are there any plans to get the first two organized
records on streaming or you're going through a day lossul
thing as well.

Speaker 4 (01:29:48):
With we're in the midst of putting those up soon.
But I just was telling Prince, let's do the ship
in a real ill, you know, ill way, and not
just make it a vaila. Let's try and shoot something.
Let's shoot something for a straight bullet, make an announcement,
and it would be nice to be, you know, just
to be like, Hi, I'm Prince, Pope, Hi, I'm pharaohmont

(01:30:10):
and we are organized for the first time. Yeah, you know,
I think that ship would be cool. So to all
the heads out there, it's coming. We just want to
do it and honor the catalog. It's all we have.
You know. It may not be what us some other
catalogs are, but it's ours and I want to honor it.

Speaker 5 (01:30:35):
And that money gonna come in every month.

Speaker 1 (01:30:47):
I was about to say, with the Desire record, what
was the decision process too, Well, I'm saying growth. It's
almost as if every one between two thousand and four
and two thousand and five was expanding their their creative
palette in terms of their presentation, So there's a lot

(01:31:11):
more live instrumentation. Was that just based on not trying
to mess with samples anymore? In the whole nightmare of
that situation, like what what brought that?

Speaker 5 (01:31:20):
On?

Speaker 1 (01:31:20):
One of my favorites on that record was your terror
Dom cover.

Speaker 4 (01:31:24):
Well, thank you man, probably you know, looking back emotionally
and psychologically, but more so than that, I had went
through so much trauma with the sample and the label
shit and uh raucous folded and went to MCA, and

(01:31:45):
then they went over there, and then they was at Geffen,
and then it was this, and I was caught up
in all that shit. And in the midst of that,
uh there was there was some almost uh me going
with Shady and then Sylvie and then over here, and
then I was just all over the place. And then
I finally was like, you know what, I'm gonna just

(01:32:07):
try to be a free agent and get out of
this kind of web. And I was finally able to
walk from it all. And when I walked from it,
I felt free again. And I was like, I don't
even know if I want to do this shit again
right now in the way that I'm used to doing it.
And I had a bevy of songs that I have recorded,

(01:32:32):
and I had love. I was on tour with most
and Qua. We was on a Sony PlayStation tour with
tour buses. I had landed a publishing gill and I
was chilling and I was like, I'm not signed. I
don't want to look for a record deal. I'm good
and Corey Qualley's manager at the time, Blacksmith, Blacksmith was like, yo,

(01:32:55):
what you're working on? And I put something on the
tour bus and I played a couple of songs and
he lost it and he just tore me apart and
he was like, these songs are great, They're not yours.
They're given to you from a higher place. It's wrong
for you to hold on this stuff.

Speaker 7 (01:33:13):
What are you doing?

Speaker 4 (01:33:14):
You know it's not yours to hold onto, Like, what
are you doing on? I don't know. You know, I'm good.
I'm on tour with with Most and Quad, and you know,
I'm just turned off by the record label shit. And
he really beat me up and was like, and you
need to give them away? And there was again putting,
putting music in context. The industry is changing, like you

(01:33:35):
said at the time, and I couldn't understand. As the
nineties do the concept of give the what no record cover?

Speaker 1 (01:33:44):
Like what?

Speaker 4 (01:33:44):
Uh like? No artwork? What do you mean? Give this shit? Away,
and he was really like, this, it's not really yours, man,
you have fans, you need to let it go. I
was just like, I can't get the concept. I go
on to record more on Me music, and I do
realize that what I'm feeling is I want to uplift,

(01:34:05):
So I incorporate Mila Machinko and Showtime Showtime, because I'm
hearing that these harmonies can can be uplifting in the
song and these tones. And I knew that I wanted
to perform and have people feel a certain way because
I feel like I was let free from my situation.

(01:34:28):
So I was incorporated, you know. To answer your question,
sorry for being long winded. I was trying to incorporate
this instrumentation that can make you feel good and get
a goosebump, hopefully from the live performance. And that's why
the Desire record sounds like that.

Speaker 5 (01:34:50):
How did you hook up? Man?

Speaker 4 (01:34:52):
How?

Speaker 5 (01:34:53):
What was How did that connection happen?

Speaker 4 (01:34:55):
There was there was I was moving back and forth
between Shady and this and that, and we hooked up
and he's responsible for a lot of that. And you know,
I was in Detroit, man, it was one of the
best times. You know, just being out there with with
Black Milk and Guilty and the Non and and that
whole crew, and uh, he sold Soulful and he bought

(01:35:17):
a lot of that. You know. That's why I gravitated
that way because he sings and you know, I broken heart.

Speaker 5 (01:35:25):
I'm still waiting for that. I need that to come
out on something like I.

Speaker 4 (01:35:29):
Love that man, Thank you man. And uh, that's that's
why I went in that direction because I'm I was like,
I need to move people in a in a different way.
And that being said, the record that most of the
demo got dropped. When I was in Detroit working with
the Nan, I was also writing for Puff.

Speaker 9 (01:35:54):
I wanted to ask you, So I'm feeling I'm feeling
really good and I don't have a record deal and
I'm just fortunate that d narm is helping me out
and I'm working on music again, feeling really fortunate.

Speaker 4 (01:36:08):
And I'm I'm I'm writing and I'm doing shit, and
I don't know where this music is going to go.
And there was an actual created and actual bidding war
just to push this forward. It was src Puff was
loving what he was hearing because he would ask me
to play shit when I was in the studio with
him No Desire and uh the ship with Alchemists and

(01:36:32):
the different songs that was on that album. People were
feeling and my lawyer was like, I can't believe that
in this context, in this timeframe, that you actually have
three deals on the table Sony SRC and Puff was like,
whatever they offer you double that ship, true story, and

(01:36:56):
I was like, I don't believe you.

Speaker 5 (01:36:58):
I don't believe.

Speaker 4 (01:36:59):
I don't leaders will work there. You know, we would
have the hearts and he would be like why, and
I'm like, I tarrell Mont's bad Boy in the building.
I was like, nobody's trying to wait.

Speaker 1 (01:37:12):
That's real, though, I gotta ask only because you know,
there's there's a part like Past the mid Arts two
thousand and five, two thousand and six, where you just
stopped reading credits. So I don't know, but I always
felt in my heart that one of them rhymes on
Diddy's I'm So Glad You said that press play album.

Speaker 4 (01:37:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:37:34):
I didn't want you want to insult you. I was like, wait, it.

Speaker 5 (01:37:37):
Was a future right, it was, yeah, wait to see.

Speaker 1 (01:37:43):
Because I always thought that you wrote uh everything I
love the one that Kanye did because the way he's
riding on about someone's going.

Speaker 10 (01:37:52):
I was like this, he's penny like coome bar this,
And I always wanted to know, did you go write
that joint?

Speaker 1 (01:38:03):
Okay?

Speaker 5 (01:38:04):
He I sat it was the press Play album, right.

Speaker 4 (01:38:10):
Yeah, press Play sat with him, had a meet with him.
He was like, I'm working on an album. I got
to meet with him because I had did this publishing
deal and the writers there and y'all know how that go.
And my only thing was when when I sat with him,
I'm like, I'm good. I just want to be credited,
which is why I don't have any problem saying what

(01:38:31):
I'm saying because I'm credited as a writer on the song,
so it's not like speaquiet right, Okay. And then you know,
I just again, I just I just learned so much
from him. You know, I thought he credited me so
much on my work ethic, but he's really an animal

(01:38:51):
at that ship too, And I watched him and and
learned about applying, re applying myself and a different way
when it comes to my own shit. Because I'm like,
no way, I'm gonna work this hard on his ship
and not work that hard on my ship, and just
learn so much from him in that sense of how
he pushes really good at figuring out how to push

(01:39:14):
your writer or to push your artists. I love that
dude for that.

Speaker 1 (01:39:18):
So yeah, I want to know what that process is
like when you're is it like does he just take
what you give him? Do you have to be there
to coach him? Like say it like this, like how
how much work does he put into the preparation? Because
I mean, he pulled it off to the point where
I was like, Wow, he's he really got good at rapping.
And then I was like, wait a minute, this guy

(01:39:39):
somebody for him. And then when I.

Speaker 5 (01:39:41):
Heard I write rhymes, I write checks.

Speaker 1 (01:39:43):
Right, And then when I heard the rhyme scheme, I
was like, Yo, this feels like farah some pharaoh would say.
And I was like, there's no way that he reached
that deep into the to the wrapper bag. Yeah, to
go to go that level, but now realize and he
goes in cycles where he's like, Okay, I got to
take it back to the beginning. Like even right now

(01:40:05):
as we speak, he I hope I'm not letting this
cat out the bag like he's trying to make He's
he's now making like Camp Diddy where it's like he
has two underground cats, Like he's trying to go back
there again. You know what I'm saying, He doesn't.

Speaker 4 (01:40:23):
You got to realize who he discovered. Yeah, at the
end of the day, you got to realize who has
written you know, you know we could, we could, you know.
Even having conversations with him off the rip, he was like,
I know what niggas say about me. I'm like, what
do they say? He said they'd be in the barber
shops and they be like, I funk with his junes
and I don't funk with his music.

Speaker 1 (01:40:46):
With his music, I can say that I was. I
was once a short John model.

Speaker 3 (01:41:01):
Question because I.

Speaker 6 (01:41:02):
Do want to know the answer to the question of
the process that you asked me about, Like what is
that process like? And were you in the studio and
there for like all the infections and what again?

Speaker 4 (01:41:12):
In those heart the hearts? He was like, Yo, if
you have an issue, tell me to my face, be
honest with me. And that's why I took the job.
There's been a lot of ships that a lot of
things that I was offered in my career, which is
where I'm in the position. I'm not in the higher
position that I could be that. I was like, ah,
it's just not in my heart to do it. But

(01:41:33):
when he told me that, I was like, all right, nigga,
if you're going to be that raw and you're going
to be that honest, then then let's do it. And
he played me the beats and it was like has
it the lawn? I'm like, oh shit, I was like,
this is what the A list beats sound like.

Speaker 7 (01:41:52):
I was like, oh my god, this music is good.

Speaker 4 (01:42:04):
Let's do it. So he flies me down the Miami
and I'm writing and I'm writing and I'm writing and
we're nailing the ship and the engineers are in there
and they're like, this is crazy. This is crazy. This
is crazy. He's going to love this. And he he
would come in in the eleventh hour and be like,
A maybe the last four bars, you know, going into

(01:42:28):
the thing could be could be a rewrite. And we
you know, we work hard on stuff. So I got
it done. You know, there was some some great stories
down there in my own me.

Speaker 1 (01:42:46):
What was it like recording down there?

Speaker 4 (01:42:50):
Not going there. I was working on my album with
the Nawn at the same time, and I really was
like I want to finish this so I could go
back to d Troit and finish my shit. And he
was like, Yo, your shit is amazing as well. You
might want to think this out. Boom boom boom. I
finished my writing. I flew to Detroit and we're working

(01:43:12):
on my stuff. And I'm in the studio with the
non maybe Milk may be guilty with chilling and with writing,
and I'm having some whiskey and I get a call
from Sean C and he says, my brother, I think
Puffy's gonna use one of your joints as the first single,

(01:43:34):
first release kind of. And I'm like, you gotta be
fucking shitting me, and he's like, you got to hear it.
And I was like, send it to me. And they
send me the song and the nan has this elaborate studio.

Speaker 5 (01:43:47):
He puts it.

Speaker 4 (01:43:48):
In, puts it on, puts it on the big speakers
in press play, and all you could hear is laughter.
Everybody in the studio is laughing at the top of
the ark and lungs because it sounds like Pharaoh manch
coming out of Puffy's mouth. Yes, yeah, And I'm like,

(01:44:12):
you know, I actually did it, you know, with I
did it with a New York swagger on the demos
and it's kind of laid back and it, you know,
kind of has like a lot of flavor that I
don't even you know, project back then. That's not where
I was with it. And it was so ill. So

(01:44:33):
he said, if you have an issue, you can call me.
So I was like, I gotta get him on the phone.
I want to fly back. I want to re record
these vocals. I want to fly back to New York
and I want to go in with him and re
record these vocals. And I was like, I gotta get
him on the phone. And they just steady laughing. It's
just laughing in the background, and I'm calling and I'm like, hello,

(01:44:54):
it is Pharaoh. Can I speak to Puff? And it's
like Pharaoh, who what? What? Like Fara, can I speak?
Hold on? Who what? Pharaoh? Okay, hold on. Finally get
through to him and I'm like, just listen to the record.
I think we could re record these vocals more laid

(01:45:16):
and relaxed. And he was like, fuck you man, I
love this ship. I'm not changing it.

Speaker 1 (01:45:25):
Yeah, so much talk.

Speaker 5 (01:45:30):
Wow, wow, man, what what do you think made you
go with? You know, go with s RC rather than
going with bad Boy or going with like Sony. You
know you said some what what how did you choose them?

Speaker 4 (01:45:45):
I mean, I know what that record was sounded like
it was a non and I'm like, I don't you
know you I would be like explaining to me how this,
how this would work, and you know, it's like I
could walk you on the MTV, I could do this today,
and this was like, I just don't think if it's
the aesthetic unless something else is kind of created. And

(01:46:06):
I love that dude, and I would have loved to
have worked with him under his tutelage and got all
that extra kind of love, but I just didn't think
it fit. There.

Speaker 3 (01:46:16):
Was that your last experience in the writing? Because did
you write some more for other folks?

Speaker 4 (01:46:21):
I quit after that. It's such it's so taxing. You
give all of your heart to his soul and it
just this is kind of draining in a way.

Speaker 1 (01:46:35):
If I say, who did you say no to? If
I'm allowed to ask, did he can't be the only
person that asks you to hook up his pen?

Speaker 4 (01:46:46):
I can't.

Speaker 7 (01:46:46):
I can't.

Speaker 1 (01:46:49):
Wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, just yes or no?
Are these like rappers? That we would respect that we
be shocked at or is it like a less celebrities
that want to rap based on that. I already know
the answer, never mind, and I'm born I think I

(01:47:13):
knew the answers.

Speaker 5 (01:47:14):
But anyway, uh wow wow. So like once you talk
talk to me about like after you left, you know,
after Desire and then the years I think, like the
four years uh three four years when you came with
the War LP. How is it like to get your

(01:47:36):
mind frame of being ready to be an independent artist
and like really like doing it yourself in a way
that you had never had prior to any point in
your career.

Speaker 4 (01:47:46):
After the Desire album, Steve and we went back and
Steve loved a record, yeah, telling me him and his
wife at the time, and was it was something that
they played and they they had sex to and it
was really on some real ship. Like he was like,

(01:48:09):
really record and he was very disappointed I think.

Speaker 1 (01:48:17):
When he had the War record, No, no Desire to
the War record, that's an ex videos channel okay, my bad,
my bad.

Speaker 4 (01:48:37):
Me and immortal Technique and and so he uh, he
was like I loved this record and and I was
in the system in which I believe that that in
that two week frame, little Wayne dropped the Lollipop record

(01:49:00):
and that shit shut it shut everything down. I think
it like killed Erica had America, I think at the time,
and from what I could see from my optics, it
just soaked up all of the moneys from everywhere and
they put all their money on on that shit, and
we kind of got yeah. But that being said, I

(01:49:22):
tore it off that record. I did Rock the Bells
off that record, and it was very well received, and
I saw a different level of fan coming in. I
remember being on Rock the Bells Overseas with nas and
Daylight and the Elevator, and I was talking to Nads
and I said, yo, you know, I put this out,
and you know, head seemed a little disappointed that I had,

(01:49:43):
you know, the singing and this, and nas imposters like,
don't worry. These things are like children. They grow, they mature.
Talk to me three years from now and see what
it's like. So when I ask people desires is it
was up there and and my my solo ship that
that people vibe was still brought in new fans, and

(01:50:06):
I was starting to learn that that's okay. As I'm
moving forward, so I go back to Steve and then
that moment when we're going into the new record, I
was like, Yo, I got these samples and ship and
I want to do some rock shit and I want
to do some of this ship and that shit was
like nah. And then I was like I want to

(01:50:28):
leave them and I want to be on the label,
and they let me go because we're all mature and
whatever and whatever. And Guy Route, my manager at the time,
was like, you know, I think this major label shit
went over people's heads. You know, you're telling me. People
see you in the mall and they're like, you still rapping,
and I'm like, I'm want to major right. You know.

(01:50:50):
It was something they connected and the labels is changing
and it's going digital and they're missing it. We decided
to go into pen It learned under the Tulge tutelage
of duck Down and get the game from somebody who's
been doing it for twenty five years, you know, and
not just jumping to the game. And we talked to

(01:51:13):
them and we went there and we did the The
War record, which again for me, you know, from my lens,
did better than the Desire Record because we had a
record on there. I had a record on there called
Still Standing with Jill Scotty that performed extremely well overseas

(01:51:35):
and kept me out on the road, which is obviously
the only way I was making money at the time,
the only way I could earn so I was enjoying
staying on the road.

Speaker 5 (01:51:46):
Yeah, and we did Black Kancide. We shot the Black
Kancide video with that was man. That was you. The
one you introduced me to Terrence Dance, who is the
director of uh Random Acts of Flyness on HBO, and
he's also and he's one of one of his homies

(01:52:07):
is also. I don't think he was on set that day,
but his man Shaka King, I don't know, you know
Shaka Yeah, yeah, you know who's thebody who did the
upcoming Fred Hampton joint. But but nah, man, I really
the videos that y'all did for that record. I just
I remember just telling guy, you know, because we shot
our video the Black Hand Side joint with styles P.

(01:52:28):
But before that, Yard shot Clap and I was like, Yo,
these ships is like movies, dude, And you know, it
always just made me think of you and just wonder
if you ever had any aspirations of going into screenwriting
because perfect fit of the ship man.

Speaker 4 (01:52:44):
Yeah, I wrote all of those. I wrote the concept
for black Hand Side with the through the different lens
of the shades. I wrote the concept for Clap and
Still Standing. And obviously I was lucky enough to hook
up with tern Nance, who's uh fucking that is going
to do incredible, insane, major major things. But I was

(01:53:08):
lucky to fall into that that laying with him and
his cinematographer Sean and get those visuals done, which really
really helped the record a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:53:21):
Pharaoh. All right, so we we got here finally in
three hours, explain to me the concept behind the thirteen project.

Speaker 5 (01:53:34):
Damn, you're gonna steal my one question?

Speaker 1 (01:53:36):
All right, good Steve asked your question.

Speaker 2 (01:53:39):
I mean, I love Daru Jones and Marcus Machado, and
yet if you could just tell us about the trio,
but specifically why you chose a drummer or drums and
guitar as as the other two parts.

Speaker 5 (01:53:57):
As you.

Speaker 4 (01:53:59):
Know, of course, you know the rock thing has been
sprinkled throughout. You know, I had some some ill samples
that that didn't make the record of stuff that I
was rocking over, and I realized if if I wanted
people to take me a little bit more serious than
me even saying that word that I needed to incorporate musicians.

(01:54:24):
I liken it to somebody from the rock side saying
he's gonna do an authentic hip hop record, and how
everybody on this side would be like, yeah, the fuck
out of here, and so, you know, I wanted I
wanted to at least get a look on that side.
I'm a fan of the genre and I respect the genre,

(01:54:46):
and I know people have tried to have done these
type of matchups before, so uh, I wanted someone who
had who could who could do the late Diller ship
as well as had rock chops because a lot of
the stuff was straight ahead, and I knew it should

(01:55:07):
be more straight ahead than more laid back in the pocket,
you know, thinking about what I wanted, and I wanted to,
you know, get somebody who who can understand that. And
you know, I know how busy darru is, but I
was like, fuck it, yo, I'm doing this project and
I need a bit of commitment, and I know cats
are always gigging, but he was like, I'm down, and

(01:55:30):
that was like, you know, one of the main things
because I needed to do. Obviously a couple of straight
live records to make it make sense, but more importantly,
I wanted it to keep the temperament and not lose
hip hop because that's the core of the shit still.
It's the reason why I liked the genre. You know,

(01:55:54):
to begin with, you're talking rush. It's savage as Zeppelin,
you know, that's all shit I would rhyme over. You know.
I heard Tom Sawyer and I'm like, I don't know
any MC who wouldn't want to rhyme over that. So
to me, I'm like, that's that's hip hop to me.
And it's always been the genre's kind of blending to

(01:56:18):
each other for me. So I knew that was very
important to bring in the knots so that the shit
is official in terms of that pocket, but then able
to expand outside of what you would get and an

(01:56:39):
intro and outro of a record, so we could stretch
a little bit. So that's what that's all about. On
the musical side.

Speaker 5 (01:56:46):
What is the what is your almost this fault called
it obsession with the number thirteen because you're publishing this
stress condecta for over you, which is the fear of
the number thirteen. Great. Is that right? So that, yeah,
what's that? That's that recurring kind of theme in your career.

Speaker 4 (01:57:03):
So with the asthma shit, when I got it when
I was little, I contracted it at thirteen months of age,
and that's what I would hear all the time. People
would be like, how long has it been since he
had asthma? And my mom would be like, since he
was thirteen months old? And I, you know, it just

(01:57:24):
kind of stuck in my head like that. And then
as you know, I went on, I was born on Halloween,
which is thirty one, and the number just kept reoccurring.
And then I'm a big sports fan, and then a
lot of the players that I like water number. So
when me and Prince picked numbers, you know, his favorite

(01:57:44):
number was eight. We played on the high school basketball
team in the art school, so it wasn't really that
good and thirteen was my number, and so it stuck
with me. And that's just the basis behind that, you know.
And it's cool to to do the awkward ship and
just I think it's hip hop to be like, yeah,

(01:58:06):
it's supposed to be bad luck, but fuck it. And
it's also rock to be like supposed to be bad luck.
So that's what the thirteen is about.

Speaker 1 (01:58:14):
Okay, So not to totally weird y'all out. Okay, So
you know, as of this recording, I don't know when
this will hit the air, but as of this recording,
I just celebrated a birthday and someone was gracious enough
to gift me a medium, a three hour session with

(01:58:38):
a medium, and oh wow, nice. Yeah it was deep.

Speaker 5 (01:58:42):
Man.

Speaker 3 (01:58:46):
No no no, they're not nice, not nice.

Speaker 4 (01:58:48):
No, no, no, I'm saying that's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:58:54):
The thing is is that, yeah, you know, I've also
been looking at my my my lineage and my bloodline,
which the Bedeen people of Africa are also connected to Haitians,
and so I'm slowly just discovering that there is a

(01:59:15):
lot of propaganda with the number thirteen and also the
number six, which, of course, you know, we've been taught
kind of postcolonial Christian America that you know, six six,
six is the market, the beast and signed the devil,
and there's no thirteenth floor anywhere, none of those things.

(01:59:35):
And I'm slowly realizing in my studies, especially in Haitian culture,
that thirteen is actually a holy number, and it's almost
as if, you know, the propaganda that that's been used
to sort of to tear you away from embracing it,

(01:59:56):
say it's evil, but it's actually that's actually a very spiritual.
It's it's for African culture. It's it's a spiritual number.

Speaker 3 (02:00:07):
So kind of everything y'all do is bad. God damn.

Speaker 1 (02:00:12):
Yeah. So I'm realizing this year that actually we need
to embrace the number thirteen, which I when I saw
the name of the group, I was like, damn, he
took my number.

Speaker 5 (02:00:27):
Man, I didn't know that thirteen is my number.

Speaker 1 (02:00:30):
Damn it. Did you?

Speaker 2 (02:00:31):
Did you know Marcus or did Daru bring him aboard
or to you?

Speaker 4 (02:00:37):
I knew Marcus uh from you know Vernie Reed and
those cats and family stand and he grew up around
those people, and you know, when it came to you know,
I need you know, I need someone who could take
it there and you know, do some double time or

(02:01:00):
you know, do some funk. You know. His he he
was the dude. And uh, I've seen him play and
it was like you know, blue Note, and I was
like he got that. I just needed to see if
he had the edge, and uh, you know, obviously he's
a Jimmy fan and and I even needed it a

(02:01:21):
little more edgier than that. And he's just that dude,
like he's he's a prodigy, like I asked for. We're
still in the beginning stages, so we don't know, but
I asked for two dudes who could if we break
this ceiling and people be like, I don't know any
of these guys. I don't know the fucking rapper, I

(02:01:43):
don't know who any of them are, you know, or
run the juice style. I wanted people to be like,
I'm here for the fucking guitarists. I'm here for the drummer,
like the vocalist is cool. And I asked for you know,
cats that can shine like that, because I think, you know,
the goal is to take away the pretentiousness of what

(02:02:04):
you get. You know, like I said, I'm trying to
deconstruct and I just got tired of seeing dudes in
the front with whatever, and I'm like, I need to
see a team. So I told them, you know, I
didn't want my name on this shit at all, but
obviously because of algorithms.

Speaker 5 (02:02:25):
The algorithm, yeah, you know.

Speaker 4 (02:02:28):
That, like we got to put Pharaoh in here somewhere
to take advantage of your millions of people who have
locked into you on Spotify and all that shit. So
that's what that's about. But if it was up to me,
I'd have just been like thirteen. But you know, I'm
not as stupid to run away from what I've been
working on for thirty years. So that's why my name
is even on the shit.

Speaker 3 (02:02:48):
You know, can you break down?

Speaker 6 (02:02:51):
Because I think Amir asked you, but when you never
got a chance to answer about the concept of the group,
and even I mean the videos, there is a concept,
there's a focus.

Speaker 4 (02:02:59):
It's see yeah, you know, it's just anybody who who
has a brain and any empathy, you could just feel
that the system in the country is way heavy on
our spirit and when you think about how do you

(02:03:21):
get back to zero, you know it's going to be
some hardhass discussions that need to happen because of the
atrocities that this country has founded on. And so you know,
in my mind as an MC, I'm like, you know,
the only real way to do that ship, the only
real way to atone collectively is an exorcism, even if

(02:03:43):
it's with ourselves, and I as an MC, I know
people would hit that word and be like woo, And
I was like, good, fuck it. You should be scared
because this shit is scary that's going on. But it's
kind of like the it's kind of like a cleansing too,
you know. And it's been cathartic for me as well

(02:04:03):
doing it. And also, you know, we've been kumbayan and
praying and all that shit for a long long time
now and holding hands, and I just wanted to like
it myself and be like, let's just come at this
to like real dark and meet the ship head on
how it's coming at us, because you know, to keep

(02:04:24):
information from people and to you know, not allow people
to have loans to get homes and all the secret
shit that's been going on for all these years. It's
pretty evil, you know, point blank. And I was like,
how about we we we come down to that vibration.
I know, it's like light shines on the dark, but

(02:04:45):
I'm like, how about we go there and throw this
system a little voodoo and get a little dark with
the ship motherfucker's back in the face.

Speaker 1 (02:04:56):
Yes, Hey, I have one last question before we wrap up,
Fronte you okay, yeah, because I feel like I'll get
roasted for not asking this question because we asked about
like your history, and we asked about your records and

(02:05:16):
your business decisions. But the one thing I never asked
was your actual creative process, Like can you just give
us you know, and I know MC's and artists have
general you know, it just comes when the spirit hits me.
But do you idea of a specific ritual, like do

(02:05:38):
you get up in the morning, do you like what
is your what is your ritual when you are creating
a song?

Speaker 5 (02:05:45):
Does it come instantly?

Speaker 4 (02:05:49):
I'm a sponge. I love good conversation. I love talking
to people who are way more educated than I am
and listening to them and talking to them and and
sponging and film and I sponge off of films like this. This,
this whole project is probably off of Fury Road, Logan

(02:06:13):
and Joker in a sense that you look at the
commitment that I looked at the commitment that Joaquin Phoenix
made to that film and literally went back in the
studio and it was like, I got to redo verses.
I need you to be more committed to the verse.

Speaker 5 (02:06:31):
Yeah, you were one of the first simc's I'll say too,
man like you were one of the first casts that
I've really someone I respected at the time in hip
hop when everybody was trying to be Ja and fifty.
I get it in one take, Guru. You know what
I'm saying, Like, Oh, I got it in one take.
I got in one take. You were one of the
first cats I remember hearing saying like, no, I treat
my vocals like a performance or you know, treating almost

(02:06:54):
like an actor where it's like, you know, if I
got to do it two three times, or even if
it's like comping and just okay, I want to do
this line right here, you know what I'm saying. And
that was so mind blowing to me, and it just
opened me up because that was in rap world. That
was thought of something that was just so like, oh,
you don't do that. We just come in and rap

(02:07:14):
and that's it. It was never thought of as being
a performance and treating it, you know, like a voice
actor would.

Speaker 4 (02:07:22):
In the beginning, because you know, we couldn't afford studio
to time, it was like you gotta knock that shit
out with two MC's on one microphone. You know, it's
just you know, as we keep going back to context,
but now it's like, do you believe yourself, you know
what I mean, Like, listen back to the ship.

Speaker 7 (02:07:40):
If you ain't.

Speaker 4 (02:07:42):
Convincing you, you definitely ain't gonna convince Spante, Black Thought,
Royce Quest or anybody else. So just listen and see
if it is cutting through in that sense and if
I if I could get the Yeah, I think I
got it and I can let it go. And it's
not wrong with that. Like even after Nicki Minaj came

(02:08:05):
out and I noticed how the way they were producing vocals,
which we you know, that's a part of making the record.
You know, they took that ship to a whole other level.
And even on some of the songs or some of
these songs, I'm like, I need to, you know, produce
the vocals. I am I getting young? Am I giving away? Nah?

Speaker 5 (02:08:28):
Dude, man, this.

Speaker 6 (02:08:30):
Is what it is, showing the different aspects of the
art too, because like Fante said, a lot of people
do just think you dope if you can get it
out of one tape. People didn't even think that, Wait
a minute, let's treat this life art.

Speaker 3 (02:08:39):
So no, thank you for that.

Speaker 4 (02:08:42):
Nah.

Speaker 5 (02:08:42):
It's real.

Speaker 4 (02:08:43):
Nah.

Speaker 5 (02:08:43):
And he's one of the most I've never worked with
much in the studio, but the times we have were
you know, we would just send each other stuff whatever.
I mean, he is just one of the most meticulous.
Like I remember you sent me back your verse for
the Wee Go Off record we did for my Alum,
and you sent me that shit and I was like, Yo,
this nigga doing sound effects. He got it. But it

(02:09:07):
was that shit was just what the fuck you know,
I needed and that was why I called you like
to do just that. And you know that was the
time I remember, like when we was back in I think, man,
this was even before Minstrel Show came out, because you
were one of the cats that we were thinking about
putting on on Hiding Place. Me and Pool was talking,
you know, about putting you on that record, and you

(02:09:29):
came to Raleigh, I think it came to Durham and
we went and got some seafood or something. I can't remember,
but we were just talking and you was telling me
about the time Desire was about to come out, and
he was like, Yo, man, new ship coming. I'm about
to be like Tom Jones on this bitch.

Speaker 1 (02:09:41):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 5 (02:09:44):
You talking about you know the Body the Body Baby record.
I mean, but uh.

Speaker 4 (02:09:48):
Yeah, you hear artists and they don't fit. It's all
good like you're supposed to be, like, let's see if
this guy fixed this puggle and sh it has to
work like you know, that's how it's supposed to be,
Like you.

Speaker 5 (02:10:02):
Know, yeah, for everything we've done, like all the records,
like you ever reached out to me for I'm just
like anytime I have a chance to rhyme with you,
I'm just like, dude, just say the word. I'm there whatever.
I don't care if produced it, I don't care what
it is. Like I'm going ahead to head. And I
just always appreciated the way that you just always you know,
I could I always tell like the I think when

(02:10:22):
we did the Black Kan side video, that was probably
the first time that I really saw and I mean
this like in a in you know, in a very
beautiful way, just how sensitive of an artist you were,
and not like, oh man, I'm sensitive, not like that,
but just how intuitive I guess you were, and how
you know it was. And it wasn't even on no
music shit, it was just we was talking. I never

(02:10:46):
get this, bro. We was talking and I think we
had finished shooting for the day. We don't had like
one scene left or something. But this was around the
time when man, don't I think they hit like Kadafi.
This was when all that ship was popping on with
Kadafi and his son had got killed or some ship.
It was something. I'm all the history people listening to

(02:11:09):
this interview, please don't crucify me. But I just remember
someone on set came in and like delivered that news
and you were just sitting in this chair and you
just looked up and you was like, Yo, they killed
Goddaffi's son. And I just would never get to look
in your face like he was just like, yo, boy,
these crackers ain't ship. God damn.

Speaker 1 (02:11:30):
He was that look.

Speaker 5 (02:11:31):
He was like yo. But I just remember seeing that
and I was like, man, like you really, you know
when you said like a sponge, You know what I'm saying,
Like you really I saw the quality in you. You
know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (02:11:42):
I'm an EmPATH and it is what it is. I
don't know if that's a cool thing to even say,
but it is what it is. And I love this ship.

Speaker 3 (02:11:50):
Man.

Speaker 4 (02:11:50):
I love I love you, I love I love the
little Brother. I love you too, brother, I love I
love the roots. And it's cool to say that ship like,
I'm a fan fan, you know.

Speaker 5 (02:12:00):
Bro, when you came. Man, when we did DC, like
we was like one of the last kind of shows
we did before you know, everything shut down. You know,
we had booked d C the same night, and I
hit you this, I hit you. I was like, Bro,
I had no idea this was gonna happen. I didn't
even find out to Athawards, and so I hit you. You
were doing the Kennedy Center. We were at Howard Theater

(02:12:22):
and I was like, Yo, I'm gonna come through. I'm
talking to guy and there I'm like, yo, I'm coming through,
and I'm a you know, feral show.

Speaker 3 (02:12:29):
That live for a second. You was doing the Kennedy Center. Okay,
I'm sorry, damn right, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (02:12:35):
He was.

Speaker 1 (02:12:35):
We was in that thing.

Speaker 5 (02:12:36):
So no, man, I came over and like rock with
you and and you know, and then you know, afterwards,
I told us, like, yo, were going to LB show
and so y'all came over and we didn't get a
chance to talk afterward. But bro, I never got a
chance to tell you. Man, that ship meant so much
for me and Pood to be on stage and we
looking in the back and you don't normally in the back,
it might be just whoever, right, but we're looking like

(02:12:59):
behind where DJ is and it's you. I think Fame
was back there from Mop guys back there, like it's
all these dudes that we grew up listening to watching us.
And I remember Guy was asking me before, he said, man,
you know, if you want much to come on, you know,
just just you know, we got you. I said, nah,
bro like munch Fame. I said, Man, let them niggas

(02:13:19):
be fans tonight, bro, like, just.

Speaker 1 (02:13:22):
Dang got you know what I mean.

Speaker 5 (02:13:23):
Just let them chill, you know what I mean? And
that meant so much.

Speaker 4 (02:13:28):
I wish I could have been in the audience that
it was so packed in that motherfucker. I couldn't even
go out there, like I know.

Speaker 5 (02:13:34):
Now I would have been a problem, you know, but.

Speaker 4 (02:13:39):
Like I said, man, you know not, you know, fuck it, man,
like flowers, flowers, flowers, you know for what everybody, it's
dope to just be a fan fan. It's fun to
be a fan fan, you know, so give love.

Speaker 3 (02:13:57):
It's dope to hear brothers give love.

Speaker 4 (02:13:59):
Real love.

Speaker 5 (02:14:00):
We evolved. Niggas go to therapy.

Speaker 3 (02:14:06):
Brother like I like this.

Speaker 1 (02:14:07):
Ye y'all talked me last week.

Speaker 2 (02:14:08):
So yeah, hey, if you love me too, I got
a Sugar Steve action figure for you for your top
shelf over there.

Speaker 1 (02:14:17):
Are you probably do I don't think, yeah, he probably does.

Speaker 5 (02:14:21):
Joke okay, but but nah, bro, I mean I've told
you time to time good. But now, bro, you were
like one of the greatest like to ever do this
ship and you're always in See that makes me, you know,
sends me back to the drawing board, and I hear it.
I'm just like, holy shit, like I got to step
it up again, and uh to be able to maintain
that intensity for the last thirty fucking years, I mean,

(02:14:41):
and and with no signs of decline or slipping off
or you know, I got you know, I posted early.
I bought the thirteen record. I had a chance listen
to it yet because I've been like just running around
all day. But uh, but nah, man, just from what
I heard, you know, I mean, I was like, yeah,
manch is doing this ship is Yeah, the visuals, everything
is on point, man. And I just want to give

(02:15:03):
you a flowers to say thank you for always showing
me that love. I love you respect, Thank you utmost Brothers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, man.

Speaker 4 (02:15:10):
Prior to the pandemic, I was I was difficult with compliments.
After this ship, I'm soaking all.

Speaker 1 (02:15:17):
The Yeah, we'll get your flowers. Man, thank you for
doing this episode. It's definitely uh, you know, one one
for the record books, one one for our our or what.

Speaker 5 (02:15:36):
Do you call it?

Speaker 1 (02:15:37):
Check off the bucket list, the bucket list, right, I
was about to say a notch in the bed post.
Oh no, exactly.

Speaker 3 (02:15:48):
Looking good over there, mister.

Speaker 5 (02:15:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:15:51):
But thank you for doing the show, man. I really
appreciate it, of course.

Speaker 4 (02:15:56):
Man. And I'm on it. Man. Thank you guys for
having me. I need this. I got a new record out.
We we we. This's the first week we we came
in at sixteen. We did the tiny desk. We got
a lot of stuff flowing. So I appreciate this, man,
you know, appreciate it.

Speaker 5 (02:16:13):
No, man, Shout out to God for hooking it up.
Shout out my brother God, man like whatever.

Speaker 1 (02:16:17):
Absolutely all right on behalf of on pay Bill and
the Sugar Steve and Layah in particular. My name is Questlove.
Thank you to the Great paramounts for joining us, and
we will see you next week on quest Love Supreme.
All right, Red, Hey, this is Sugar Steve.

Speaker 5 (02:16:35):
Make sure you keep up with us on Instagram at.

Speaker 2 (02:16:38):
Q LS and let us know what you think we
should be next to sit down with us.

Speaker 1 (02:16:44):
Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast.

Speaker 5 (02:16:52):
Ust Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 1 (02:16:58):
For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Hosts And Creators

Laiya St. Clair

Questlove

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Questlove Supreme: Pharoahe Monch