Questlove Supreme: Rick Rubin

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme.

Speaker 1 (00:11):
My name is Quest Love.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
We're here today with Layah Sugar, Steve Unpaid, Bill.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
And Von Tigelow. Hello.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
I will say that our guest today is world renowned.
He's a world renowned reducer. Those are his words, not
my words. World renowned reducer. From establishing one of the
greatest hip hop labels in history, Deft cham Uh, to
working with all the greats from Read Now, Chili Pepper,

(00:42):
Tom Petty, there's Slayer, there's the Cult, There's Kanye West,
There's Dixie Chicks, There's Mick Jagger, there's Neil Diamond.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
There's the Roots.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
I'm putting it out there anyway. Ladies, please welcome the
Guru of music to Quest Love Supreme, to know Rick Rubin.
Thank you for doing our show today. Finally, where are you?
Where are you currently right now?

Speaker 1 (01:09):
Rick?

Speaker 3 (01:09):
I am right now in Kawhi on lockdown. That's a
good place to be on lockdown? Do you consider is
that home for you?

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Or is it just like Okay, if I have to
be on lockdown, I'd rather be in this particular environment.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
We mainly live in Malibu and spend some time here,
usually in the winter, and this year the winter extended
because of the lockdown, so it seemed like a better
place to be on lockdown.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Ah okay, are you able to operate under your your
sort of your creative guys at least uh in Kawai?

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Or are all these toys in LA?

Speaker 3 (01:49):
Toys are in La, But we have a setup here
that's working working well.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
You have you have an extensive history, So I was
debating with myself whether or not to do the normal
chron logical thing or should we just go kamakazi because
there's so many stories I want to learn about your production.
But I do want to know about your introduction to music.
First of all, where.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
Were you born?

Speaker 3 (02:12):
Long Beach, Long Island?

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Long Beach, Long Island? Is that where you're born on? Paybill?

Speaker 1 (02:18):
No, I was just born on Long Island. Shout out
to Long Island. Oh okay, all right, Birds of a Feather,
that's cool. What was your the very first record that
you purchased?

Speaker 3 (02:27):
I remember buying. I don't remember what was the first one,
but I remember the experience of buying seven inches. I
can remember shopping for forty fives in Times Square store
in Oceanside and Snoopy Versus the Red Baron may have
been one of them, but I don't I don't remember
exactly what the record was.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
What was the moment that you realized that, okay, I'd
like a space in the music world, or that's what
I want to do.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
I don't know that I ever had that feeling. I mean,
I knew that I loved it, and I knew that
it would be a huge part of my life, but
I never thought it would be my job. Really, Okay, well,
I didn't think that was a I didn't think that
was a realistic possibility. I was going to have a
real job and that would support my music habit. What
were you planning on becoming. I was on track. My

(03:22):
parents had me on a track to be a lawyer.
That would have been there. Their wish would have either
been a doctor or a lawyer, and I was always
afraid of afraid of blood. I don't know. And then
I thought, oh, well, there are lawyers involved in the
music industry, so maybe I could be involved in that
way because I'd have to have a job. But my

(03:42):
real love is music. But I didn't know anyone who
did music as a job. I didn't think that was
a real thing.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
What were your parents?

Speaker 3 (03:50):
My dad was a businessman, store owner, my mom was
a housewife.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Is Rick Rubin your birth name?

Speaker 3 (03:57):
Frederick J. Rubin is the name I was born with,
but I was called Rick from the time I was
a kid. No one ever called me anything else.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah, you would have been in the Ruben attorney at law. Yeah,
that's why. That's that's a lawyer's dare. Okay, I get it.
I know.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
There's there's a story that I heard about once performing
at CBGB's and it was less than desirable, and I
believe the end result was your father coming down from
Long Island, but he was dressed as a cop. Did
I make up that story in my mind or something?
But I don't remember ever telling that story. But the

(04:33):
story is around and it may be rooted in something
that actually happened. I have a vague memory of it,
but I don't remember. I can't I can't remember telling
the story, but I think it might have happened. I
think I think the story that I heard was that
you were in a band called the Pricks. I believe,
and either it's kind of like you know a modern
showed time at the Apollo story where the opening actor

(04:57):
or another act brings all their fans down.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
They were heckling you guys.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
You guys only did like two songs, and then to
give revenge on the other band, your dad came down
dressed as a cop trying to shut the show down
or something like that.

Speaker 3 (05:12):
Nothing like that happened. That was that's the story.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
If that was an urban legend or for real.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
That's an urban legend. But in the sort of theatrical
punk rock pandemonium of making a show more exciting, it
is possible that my dad dressed as a cop to
stop the show, our show, not to affect anyone else
because it would have. It just created a something. I

(05:39):
can remember the time we did a show where we
worked it out for the sprinkler, the fire sprinklers to
go off during the show and just create a general
sense of pandemonium in the room.

Speaker 4 (05:52):
And what were you were you a what instrument did
you play in the band?

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Guitar? Are you guitarists? Okay, got I did. I was not.

Speaker 3 (06:00):
I wouldn't say I was a guitarist, but I played
the guitar. You played the guitar.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Being being as though we rarely get guests on the
show that were really really of age, and I mean
like in their in their early twenties, at least in
New York City. Much as much is made about the
legend of of what nightlife culture was in New York
City because you had like one foot plan in CBGB's

(06:25):
I don't know about your history of Dancittaria or those
hip hop clubs at the time, but he just briefly
described what the environment was like in the first half
of the eighties as far as club life is concerned, Like,
do you see it with fond memories?

Speaker 5 (06:41):
Now?

Speaker 1 (06:41):
Was it the best time ever?

Speaker 2 (06:43):
Are you one of those people that are like ah
Man New York in the early eighties, there's nothing like
it ever, like it these romanticized feelings about it.

Speaker 3 (06:51):
Yes, it was an incredible time and we would go
out every night and uh, there was very little hip
hop at that time. You couldn't really see hip hop.
You could only see hip hop one night a week.
But we went out every night and you would see
there was a thriving dance music scene that would have

(07:14):
had like groups like Liquid Liquid and ESG and conk
Oh Wow. You got to see them in person, all everybody.
I saw everyone.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
What were they like?

Speaker 3 (07:24):
Incredible?

Speaker 1 (07:24):
Like ESG, what were they like?

Speaker 3 (07:26):
It was just all around the base. It was sort
of like a if you think about it looking back,
it would be you'd say it was a pretty boring show.
But the group was incredible. But it wasn't like a show.
It wasn't a show like putting on a show. It
was like people in a band standing on stage and
playing their songs. So it wasn't theatrical in any way. ESG.

(07:49):
As I recall, I think I saw them play at
Danceteria if I remember correctly, wow wow. But we would
go like if a band was playing at Irving Plaza,
we'd go to Irving Plaza. If a band playing at
the Mud Club, we'd go to the Mud Club. Maxis
Kansas City. I caught the tail end of Maxis Kansas City.
I saw James White and the Blacks play there. I

(08:11):
saw Devo play there. I saw Wayne County maybe Jane County.
At that time. I saw so many great shows. I
saw The Bad Brains play at CBGB's, I saw the
Bad Blaine's Brains play at Irving Plaza. I saw a
minor threat play at Irving Plaza. I saw the Cramps,
which was my very first technically punk rock show at

(08:34):
Irving Plaza, and then there'd be a gig at the Garden.
I remember seeing David Bowie at Madison Square Garden in
the same night seeing the Bad Brains after at CBGB's.
That would be a typical. It was an incredible time
to be a fan of music, and there was both
this live performance scene of music, and then there was

(08:58):
also this incredible dance music scene with places like Dance
Atyria then Area the garage was still going on, so
really you could you could get very different experiences, even
on the same night, going from club to club. And
then when hip hop started bubbling, the only place you

(09:19):
could really see it downtown was at Nagrill, which was
a reggae club on Avenue A. I believe I remember correctly.
I think it was either.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
Sadly anyway first making restaurant down.

Speaker 3 (09:35):
A flight of stairs.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Is it still there, Yeah, it's still there, but it's.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Shadow of what it shadow of what it used to be.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
But that's the place that I used to go to
see Jazzy j and uh Africa, Islam and Uh, Busy
Bee and Treacherous three and everybody played there and it
was one night a week Tuesday, KLB Productions, Cool Lady Blue,
And then when it got big, after it got big,
then they moved it to the Roxy and that was

(10:06):
one night a week with the Rocks. I went to
the Roxy the first night ever that it was hip hop,
and it was this giant roller rink with maybe I
don't know, there were maybe fifty of us there for
the first night, and then it ended up just watching
it grow every week and get bigger and bigger and
bigger until it became what it became.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
You know, So I know about your dorm being def
Jam's headquarters, But what was your major at NYU when
you were attending.

Speaker 3 (10:35):
I started as a philosophy major, and after two years
I switched to film and television because, as I said,
I was planning on going to law school. You don't
need a particular the degree you have undergraduate degree doesn't
matter to get into law school. And most of my
friends that I liked hanging out with were in film
school and that just seemed more fun than the liberal

(10:58):
arts side that I was that I started on. So
I just switched over, since it didn't matter.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
What year was def Jam as a punk label started first, Wait.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
Year eighty three, eighty four, something like that.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
What were the who were the artist or the label?

Speaker 3 (11:16):
At the time, the only records that I made of
my own band, all there was was hose hosc and
there was a twelve inch and a seven inch, a
twelve inch EP and a seven inch. That's all there was.
And then I made my first hip hop record, which

(11:36):
was It's Yours, which and I'll tell you the story
of how that came about because it's interesting. If you
want again, if you want to hear it, I'll tell you.

Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yes, Yes, we're rabbit Hole Central, We're waiting time.

Speaker 3 (11:49):
My favorite group at the time were The Treacherous Three.
And I didn't know anything at all about the record business.
I didn't know that there were I didn't know what
a producer did. I didn't know that there were record companies.
I didn't know that people had contracts. I literally knew
nothing other than I love music more than anything. I
read everything I could read about music. I read even Billboard,

(12:10):
which was a weird thing for a kid to read
when I was even in you know, sixth grade, seventh grade,
I would read Billboard just because there might be a
little story about an artist I liked, and it never
made like I was never really interested in what it said.
But I just wanted to learn anything there was to
learn about anyone that I liked in music, So if
I saw their name in an article, I had to

(12:32):
read it. I reached out to After the show at Nagrill,
I reached out to Kumo D. Kumo Du is my
favorite MC, and I gave him my number and I said,
let's get together and chat.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
Now.

Speaker 3 (12:47):
Kumo D was going to school on Long Island, so
they were all like college age at this time. And
then Kumo D came to visit me at the dorm.
That was my first attempt at being involved in this
thing that I loved, and I said they had been
making records on Enjoy Records, which I loved, and then

(13:09):
they made their first thing, the first thing that came out,
if I remember correctly, I'm not sure the timing of this,
but I heard a treacherous three song that I thought
wasn't as good as all the ones that I liked.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
Was it Yes we Can Can on sugar Hill might
have been. I didn't like that yeah, yeah, so I
might have made so high.

Speaker 3 (13:28):
So as a fan, I said, let's get together. I
just want to talk to you about this music. You know,
I'm a fan. I want to talk to you. And
then I said, and then again I was I had
great confidence in my taste just because I really you know,
I truly felt it with all of my heart. And

(13:48):
this was in a time when not a lot of
people were listening to this music. It was a tiny
underground scene at the time. You have to keep in
mind this is there were the first round of def
jam records. We might have pressed up, you know, three
thousand copies. You know, that might be the starting run
of a record. So that's how big the world of

(14:09):
hip hop was at that time.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
By this point, Uh is this pre or post? It's
yours like this that's.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
Leading up, this is leading up to it. There's no
I've done nothing.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Oh so he just he just befriended you on trust,
not knowing anything about your.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
No, he didn't even befriend me on trust. He's just
like somebody cares in a time when nobody cares. Why
nobody cares? You understand, it is a tiny little world
that nobody was interested in. I was interested. I could
speak about it with passion because I had that passion.
So there weren't that many heads at that moment in time.

(14:50):
So I get together with Kulmo D and I say, okay,
the records you made on Enjoy are great. Now there's
this new thing. It's not as good as the rest.
Let's figure out together. I'm your fan. I don't want
it to go that way. I don't want it to
get worse. Let's figure out how to make it get better. Yeah,
and let's figure out. I swear it's true. Let's figure

(15:12):
out how to do this great. And he said, I
would love to do this, but I can't do this.
We're signed to sugar Hill. I didn't Again, I had
no idea. I didn't know anything. I didn't know what
a producer was. I didn't know what that there were contracts,
but he said, we're signed a sugar Hill, but you
should talk to Special K. He's in the group, and
he writes he might have an idea. So he introduced

(15:33):
me to Special K. Got together Special K, and Special
K said, okay, I like the idea. And I was
already programming beats, so I played him some beats. On
my eight oh eight, Special K said, Okay, I wrote,
I just wrote this record called It's yours. I can't
do it because I'm signed to sugar Hill, but Tilura

(15:54):
can do it. He's where we're related. And that's the
way it really happened, me wanting to work with Treacher's three,
them saying me not knowing, me not knowing anything about business,
and them basically saying, this is the guy who can
do the song, and Special K wrote the lyrics.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
It was.

Speaker 3 (16:13):
It was essentially like a Special K solo record lyrically.

Speaker 4 (16:20):
What and even lyrically that was really ahead of his
time even back then as.

Speaker 3 (16:26):
It was incredible.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
Story just what ever?

Speaker 2 (16:31):
Else?

Speaker 1 (16:31):
I don't know it's yours?

Speaker 2 (16:35):
Wait, Rick, are you even familiar about the Tela Rock
situation right now?

Speaker 3 (16:42):
I've heard a little bit recently.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
I don't know what's going on. It's in Okay.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
I won't do any I won't do any justice to
the story. I'll just say that if you google Tela Rock.
GQ magazine. GQ magazine, damn near gave Tela Rock a
seven page feature story, long story short. I meet this woman,
this like this high society hoity toity, upscale woman from

(17:13):
like the West Side, and she comes to me and says, hey,
I'm doing Think of like the woman the woman in
Wild Style, like totally a fish out of water, right,
older white woman comes to me. He says, hey, I'm
doing a biopic or rapper Tila Rock, And already I'm turned.
I'm like, okay, he's trying to scam you, Like, okay,

(17:33):
whatever biopic because I'm like, what is it about Tela
Rock that deserves a biopic?

Speaker 1 (17:38):
Three years later, there's a story in.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
GQ magazine that I didn't know, which basically he went
into a coma and because he had no ID or
anything on him. Think of like Michael Jackson's character on
The Simpsons. He winds up in this old folks home
in the Bronx. They don't know who he is, or
he doesn't know who he is, knows nothing. I think

(18:01):
it about in months or so, his family finally locates him,
but he's comfortable with his life at this old folks
home and now they have to explain to him who
he was.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
You were once you were the first.

Speaker 6 (18:13):
Rapper's brutal attack a mirror.

Speaker 7 (18:19):
But the headline is the man who forgot he was
a rap legend, right, which is pretty great.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
I don't know how he got into that coma, but
I do know that he was in a coma and
he didn't know who or what he was, and he
slowly had to be taught everything about himself. But now
he just has this new life and as the young guy,
as the young stud in a nursing home.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
Wow. Yeah, and he likes his life there.

Speaker 6 (18:46):
But it's they say that other residents are mostly elderly
Jewish and Yiddish speakers, so that must be.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, like the word about like who's this black guy?
And are are missing? They're like, well, he was once
a rapper on Russell Simmons label like that sort it's
the crazy story you ever heard, but it's yeah. I
was floored once I seen it. Now I wish I
wouldn't have dismissed that woman, like that movie has to
be made.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
Nah, that's a movie.

Speaker 3 (19:11):
Sounds great.

Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, that's him now. Yeah, it's a crazy movie.

Speaker 3 (19:16):
And it looks exactly the same. By the way, it's
exactly what you looked like. Then.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
How old were you when you did that record?

Speaker 3 (19:22):
Twenty shit, maybe maybe nineteen, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (19:26):
Yeah, and that was just you on the on the
eight away and then what did y'all track it on?

Speaker 3 (19:31):
If you remember, we tracked it this There was a
studio that advertised in the Village Voice called power Play
in Long Island City, which was the cheapest studio you
could go into, and we recorded it. I recorded my
punk rock band there before, and then we recorded that
it's yours there and we recorded it, you know, in

(19:53):
a couple of hours, pretty pretty quick. Another piece, the
reason Jazzy J. The reason it is Telarak and Jazzy
J was again as a fan of hip hop, as
someone going to the club. The whole idea always of
the records that I made were that the energy in
the club was a very specific thing and the records

(20:14):
that were coming out didn't sound like what the club
sounded like, and a fan now had had the record
sounded the same. I don't know that I would have
ever made a hip hop record at all, because it
was more just I want to hear this. I want
to hear what I'm hearing at the club, but nobody's
making that record, so I made it to be able

(20:35):
to hear it. But that's all it was. It wasn't
there was no Uh. I had no expectation that anybody
else would like it or that it would have any success.
It was never about you know, you could never assume
that in this little world that it was that we
were coming from. It's like anyone who was making music
at that time clearly did it out of the love

(20:56):
of it, because it was no upside.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, there was no industry read that was Bill.

Speaker 7 (21:02):
New And what was the fundamental difference between the club
and the and the record. What were you trying to capture?
Was it just the I'll you tell you no?

Speaker 1 (21:11):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (21:12):
Because even on the a cappella version of that record.
In my mind, there's a million people in the room,
do it like because you're the king of the who
ho like that?

Speaker 1 (21:23):
That that sort of thing, like the people in the background.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yes, how many people were in the room when that
those party noise were made?

Speaker 3 (21:31):
Four or five? Five or six of us? Two times?
Maybe maybe three? Was that Rock one of those people? Absolutely?

Speaker 1 (21:40):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (21:41):
Okay? At yeah, me Ad Rock, probably Special k Jazzy
j who everybody who was in the hit, maybe even
the engineer of the session, like any people we had
on hand to get the the that party vibe. So Okay,
so let me explain how I heard what I heard

(22:02):
different about the club versus the records, and a lot
of this has to do with me not knowing anything
the way that rap records had been made up until
that point. Those records were made by people who had
made other records. So at the time, if you were

(22:25):
going to make a club record, it would be like heartbeat,
it would be a band. It would be a band
record with a woman singing R and B. That would
be the club record. And then when the people who
didn't understand hip hop but understood making club records saw

(22:50):
this new thing, rap music, they thought, Okay, we'll do
the band doing the R and B song, and we'll
have the guy rap on it instead of having the
girl sing on it. And that's what hip hop records
sounded like. But that's not what the club sounded like.
The club sounded like DJ culture, drum machines, maybe not

(23:15):
so many drum machines, but some at that point more
DJ culture. It was really about the DJ cutting it up.
So if you went to see if you went to
see The Treacher three live, it wasn't a band playing
their song like it was on even the enjoy records.
It was the DJ cutting up the records with the
MC's and that's what that's how I understood hip hop

(23:41):
was this homemade music with rapping. So that's and that's
why Jazzy why it was important for me, Like I
would never want to sign. I would never think of
doing a Tela rock record without having a DJ associated
with it, because it's like, what made it hip hop

(24:03):
was the two of them. It was the band, you know,
together they were the Beatles, right, but by himself it
was just to say it was another singer, you know,
it was Frank Sinatra. It's it's different. So I saw
it as a group and the music was an important
part of for me. The DJ culture was as important

(24:25):
as the MC always it was always both. So that's
and then I and Jesse. J was my favorite DJ,
and I asked him if you would be on the
record and join the group with Special K. That's how
that's how it happened.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
Wow, was it hard to get because you know the
stories that I've heard from Russell's reaction to the record
was that it was hard to believe that this white
boy made such a definitive black album. So how how
how hard was it to convince people that you're the
guy that made it's yours?

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Like was it heart cell or.

Speaker 3 (25:01):
The whole thing was so strange, like it was the
record was already a weird record. Yes, Russell always referred
to it as more black than anything else. But to me,
it was just more representative of the club, you know,
it was more like it was like a documentary of
what I experienced going to the club.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
All Right, So since we're talking about your eight o
eight period, and I guess our listeners, it should be
noted that, really, I mean, yes, I know that there's
a tie between like you and Arthur Baker. That Tela
Rock single was like sort of a cross between def
Jam and it wasn't start whatever Party Time?

Speaker 1 (25:44):
Party Time?

Speaker 2 (25:45):
Wasn't that one of the author breakers Offspring Levels as well?

Speaker 3 (25:49):
At the way I can tell you how that happened
as well, which was I was going to put it
out independently myself, the way I put out my punk
Rock Records with nine to nine Records, which is a
record store or really cool independent record store on Google Street, Yeah, DSG,
and they put out Bush Tetras and Liquid Liquid. They

(26:11):
put out the record that the message was based on actually.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
Yeah, I have those records. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (26:16):
So the guy who ran that record store was sort
of my mentor in that he walked me through the process.
He's like, Okay, here's a list of studios you could
go to. Here's a place you could have the vinyl press,
here's the place you could have the labels made. The
labels were made in Brooklyn, the vinyl was pressed in
I think Long Island City, the covers were printed in Canada,

(26:38):
and he kind of walked me through, here's people who
could do mastering for you, and he just walked me
through how to do it because I didn't know anything.
As I said, So I did that first for my
punk rock records and I was about to do that
with its yours when Jazzy called me because they were
making some movie that Arthur Baker was involved in. I
don't know what it was. I can't remember what it was,

(26:58):
Street Street, and he said, Hey, just met this guy,
Arthur Baker. He wants to hear our record. He's got
a label, maybe he can help us. And then I
went up and I met Arthur Baker at Shakedown Studio,
which is where we ended up doing a lot of
work in the future as well mixing. I think we
mixed half of License to Ill there and MCA from
the BC Boys work there. He worked as a as

(27:21):
like a tape op assistant there, assistant engineer. So I
went up. I met Arthur for the first time and
he was already, you know, like a successful person in
the music business. And again I'm still this kid in
school playing the song. He's like, this is great. His
main label was called street Wise street Wise and he said,

(27:44):
and it really yeah, it doesn't really fit street Wise,
but we could put it on Party Time, which is
like a sub label. Said fine, and he bought the
record to out oubt and I said, the only thing
is it has to have the deaf Jam logo on it.
Even though it came over.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
I drew that looking, you drew that looking.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
I drew the Yeah, I did. My aunt Carol worked
at Este Lauder in the creative creative services department, and
I would hang out there a lot, and I used
press type and I made it on a day that
either they were closed or just when nobody was around
at one of the designers tables, just experimenting with different things.

(28:24):
And the reason the reason it has the big DJ
was to make that point of like, this is DJ culture.
So I thought having the big DJ in the logo
quietly told the story of what the label was about.

Speaker 6 (28:41):
Was that a one thing Willie drawing or was that like, okay,
on the fifth one, I liked this one.

Speaker 3 (28:46):
I tried a lot of things. I mean I tried
a lot of things, but it happened pretty quick. It
came in, you know, came in a day. I drew
it a bunch of like uppercase lowercase, what looks good
and moving it around and then found I.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
Still have your sketches of it? Or are they long?
A think?

Speaker 3 (29:02):
So? I probably long got it. I don't. It's possible
that they exist because I had a lot of stuff
at my parents' house and then some of that stuff
is in a in storage somewhere, but I've never looked
at it.

Speaker 5 (29:14):
I was going to ask, what does it feel?

Speaker 6 (29:15):
Because I've heard a Mirror and Tarik say that sometimes
they went on deaf Jam just because they wanted to
be able to have that logo affiliated with their name.

Speaker 5 (29:25):
That's gotta feel crazy just for my drawing.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
That's yeah, Like you know, I in class, I draw
that logo on imaginary roots albums that didn't exist yet,
like hanging that shit on my wall.

Speaker 3 (29:42):
I probably did exactly the same thing, and then it
ended up becoming you know, they weren't roots albums, but
they were whatever it was. It was just like playing
with how do we say that, what's the name going
to be? What's it going to look like?

Speaker 1 (29:55):
How does it work?

Speaker 2 (29:56):
In eighty three eighty four? How expensive are are eight
to weight drum machines? I don't know, something that you
casually come across.

Speaker 3 (30:05):
It's something that I luckily came across because there was
a guy in my dorm room who was in an
alternative rock band called the Speedies, and he had that
machine and he lent he lent me the eight a
weight drum machine. That's how I came across it.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
So were you able to program and save beats or
is it just like you turn on you show what
you could do.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
And print it.

Speaker 3 (30:28):
You could make twenty or so pre program beats.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
So how long is the conversation with Russell Simmons before
you realize that you're going to go into partnership with
him and start the label officially?

Speaker 3 (30:43):
I met Russell at a party for a Graffiti Rock,
that that TV Wow where Treacher's Three and run. Yeah,
and I went there, you know, hoping that Treacher's Three
would be there because they were, you know, my favorite group.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
And this is like a party.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
This was an after party. And someone introduced me to
Russell and I told him I made It's yours and
he couldn't believe it. It's just like, no way, It's like,
you're white, you didn't make that record.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
And again, but you have.

Speaker 3 (31:17):
To understand, there were there really were.

Speaker 6 (31:19):
Well.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
Tom Silverman was involved in hip hop. He was the
only other white person I would say that I knew
who had any relationship to hip hop at that time.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
Yeah, but he wasn't making beats. He was.

Speaker 3 (31:31):
He was really helpful. He was really helpful to us,
like he was someone another Like I had these great mentors.
I had the guy at nine nine Records, ed Ed Baleman,
his name was and and I had to Tommy and
I would call Tom's just like, hey, what do I do?
Monica Lynch who worked with Tommy, like it's like what
do we do? How do What's the next step? And

(31:53):
I can remember his story. I don't think I've ever
told anyone. It's interesting why I was excited about having
Russell as apart. There I was walking on in front
of the dorm, across the street from the dorm, turning
the corner I ran into and I don't even know.
This is strange because I don't know how I knew
who he was. But there was a writer for the

(32:13):
Village Voice named Aaron Fuchs.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
He was a writer.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
He was he was a writer. But listen, let me
let me tell you. Let me tell you the story.
So again, it's amazing the fact that I even I
don't know how I knew who he was or how
it worked out that I that I. But I literally
went up to him on the street and said, hey,
I made this record, and what do I have to
do to get people to hear it? Like how do

(32:41):
I do this? And this was it's yours. I don't
even think I had there. I was just more of
a conversations like how does it work? How does this work?
So now I'm at the stage where because I was
always comfortable asking questions, you know, I would if someone
had information that I needed I was. I felt comfortable
asking and sometimes they would help and sometimes they wouldn't.

(33:02):
So I thought he was someone who might be able
to help. And I just said, you know, what's the
next step. How do I get people to hear this thing?
And he said, you need promotion and you can't do it.
And he said the only person who knows how to
do promotion for hip hop records is Russell Simmons, and
Russell Simmons won't do anything for anyone except his brother Run.

(33:26):
He works with a lot of artists, but he said,
unless you're Run, he won't promote your records. So it's like, Okay,
I'm thinking, maybe someday I'll meet this guy Rustling. At
least he'll tell me what he does, even if he
won't do it just in hopes of getting the word out.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
I got to get to the bottom of this story.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
Now, if he was a writer for the Village Voice,
and he too was, you know, a hopeful record mogul.
Yet you know the story in the Fable of Aaron
is that he would go hard and the paint ensuing
any product on def jam that contained any of the

(34:04):
samples that he owned.

Speaker 3 (34:06):
I would say even beyond that is that if he
knew any song had the potential to be sampled, he'd
try to buy up the right so that he could
sue whoever sampled it.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
Well, yeah, that too.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
But I'm almost feeling like maybe he has a personal
beef with Russell that none of us are aware of,
because there are other samples that he could have went
after that he never did.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
But if it was on deaf Jam, it's like like Goodfellas,
fuck you pay me.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
They always wanted to know if that was if there
was like a burnt bridge, and it's sort of like, okay,
well I get you.

Speaker 3 (34:41):
When he told me about Russell, he was not positive
about him. It was not a positive conversation, but it
was just this. It was a piece of information that
was helpful.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
There's an article that or a block that Harry Allen
once wrote in in honor of your early production methods,
in which you know, it's noted that you have the
loudest eight h eight sounds, the loudest scratches, like your
scratches on going back to Cali, Like it's just louder

(35:17):
than everything. So even like what's your engineering process or
just your whole theory on pushing it to the limit.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
There is none. I will say, I like, if you're
gonna put something in there, I want to be able
to hear it, like I want. The idea of having
scratching as this sort of background element that's going on
all the time is not so interesting to me. It's like,
if it's gonna be there, it should be only exactly

(35:47):
when it needs to be there, and it should be
crazy loud, because in some ways it's like it's like
lead guitar. You know, it's a punctuation moment. It's not
a background sound. And as a rule, I'm not so
into background sounds, you know. It's more about having the
least amount of stuff going on, creating space where each

(36:10):
thing that you hear, hopefully very few of them sound
as clear and have as much personality as possible. And
as soon as you start blanketing sounds, all of each
of those sounds gets diminished.

Speaker 4 (36:25):
And I can hear that in your I can really
hear that in your rock production Predicative, particularly on Californication,
which is probably my favorite Rick Rubin produced album.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
How cool but nah, I love.

Speaker 4 (36:37):
That recormand like I when I preserved it, it was just
I was taken aback by just how the way you
track Anthony's vocals, like it sounded almost like to the
edge of distortion but not quite and it just had
that kind of grid on it and it was just
really in your face.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
And I love that record. I just wanted to hear
on that one.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
So you were about to tell the Rock the bell story,
I think, yeah, and I'll tell you what.

Speaker 3 (37:02):
I remember, But but I don't remember the Bob James
record ever being in the conversation. It may have been,
it may have been something that Elle had been thinking
and wanting to do. Oh, okay, okay, but I don't
remember it. I don't remember talking about it. Yeah, I
was gonna say, it's even possible that when it was
time to record it, that he suggested it. And it

(37:25):
is possible that we were already working on the run DMC,
the Peter Piper song.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
It is possible, all right, what was your one of
the one of the factors that you also used in
your early production was the sound of Go Go and
Rock the Bells. And then She's crafty and also you know,
I'll say that one of one of the things I've
done in the Quarantine Punishment is practically purchased every Go

(37:52):
Go album made available and nothing I hate. And I
know a lot of it has to do with either
the studios that they record in. Either it's too clean
or it's too amateurish. But Sardines, to me is probably
the best. Yes, Sardines is probably the best produced Go

(38:16):
Go record, probably second to Pump Me Up. So, first
of all, Sardines is such a stripped down song. How
did you record Junkyard?

Speaker 3 (38:26):
The drop the bombs incredible?

Speaker 4 (38:28):
Okay, I'll say early early Trumpel, early trumble Funk.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
Yes, they're they're, they're. Their mixing was immaculate. But what was.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
The process in recording the Junkyard band and why didn't
you press one further with them?

Speaker 3 (38:45):
Okay, let me I'm going to just talk for a
second about I agree with you. The only the only
go Go records I like are old Trouble Funk records
other than Sardines, which I think was good. And I
want to talk about that a little bit because what
you're describing is exactly the way I felt about hip hop.

(39:07):
Where you could buy in those days, the early days
of hip hop, I could buy a twelve inch or
two every week, that's all that would come out that
would be hip hop, And none of them did for me.
What the Troublefunk records did. As it relates to Go Go.
Do you know what I'm saying. It's like the the

(39:27):
hip hop records were like the bad Go Go records say,
it's the same, It's the same in any genre. It's like,
it's not about the genre, it's the way the records
are made. And in some ways I felt like Go
Go was gonna be the next hip hop I usually
believe that was going to happen, but they didn't make
the right records. They sounded, they watered down what Go

(39:51):
Go was like. The records on Island. Island signed all
the bands, and those records are terrible.

Speaker 6 (40:00):
Do you think that's because it's kind of designed for
it to be a live situation more than a record
at the end of the day, like a studio album.

Speaker 3 (40:10):
I just think that the wrong people were helping make
the music. The wrong people were involved on the recording side.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Yes, I don't like how half the Go Go records
are engineered. Not I mean, I love Rare Essence more
than any band on Earth, but it just frustrates me
that the energy and the engineering of when I hear
them live or even I hear like some of their

(40:38):
live mixtapes that's not captured on a studio cut.

Speaker 5 (40:42):
For me, That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
And so why was Sardines and the Word just a
one off twelve inch? Was there ever a conversation about
recording Junkyard as a band or I mean, not as
a band, as a full album.

Speaker 3 (40:59):
I don't really remember, and I think not long after
I ended up leaving Deaf Jam, So it may have
been that it was just like towards the end of
the time that I was doing stuff with Deaf Jam
and then just stopped. But I don't remember. I don't
remember there being First of all, nobody particularly cared about it,
like we liked it, but it's not like there was

(41:21):
any demand for the Junkyard band. As crazy as that sounds,
I loved them.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
I was told to ask you about the making of
Crush Groove the song. What tell me the story the
making of Crushgroove the song?

Speaker 3 (41:39):
What's I was thinking about? It's funny that this has
been I couldn't. I didn't remember what song that was there.
I had a memory that we did a song with
run DMC and other artists, and I remember the conversation
in the studio because it was heated and particularly on

(41:59):
my as it related to me, like I was very
unhappy with what was going on, and I thought it
for some reason, I thought it was a Christmas song,
but have come to realize it's actually that Crush Groove song.
And I could never find it anywhere because it's listed
as the Crush Groove All Stars Soars. So it's not
like if you're looking back at run DMC songs that

(42:20):
comes up. So I haven't heard it in a long time,
but I had this vague memory. It's like we did
this song, and I remember there was a little bit
of an argument in the studio, and what the argument
was was, if you listen to the track, should we
play it because it'll it'll or at least play some
of it. You want to play a little bit of
a the track? Who are who? Who are the other

(42:41):
artists on it? Do you remember.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
Curtis Blow?

Speaker 3 (42:45):
Okay, the movie people wanted a song for the movie.
They got the Fat Boys, Sheila E and Curtis Blow
on this track that sounded like a track that would
fit on and maybe any one of the three of
their albums, maybe she'lla eat Less, but it sounded most

(43:06):
like a fat Boys records.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
Like a fat Boy Curtis blow record.

Speaker 3 (43:09):
Yeah, it sounded like a fat Boy Curtis blow record.
So when we got to the studio, okay, do you
want to play it?

Speaker 1 (43:17):
Many in love? Then in love?

Speaker 4 (43:24):
Then I think I was five when this came out.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
I love this fucking song a long way.

Speaker 3 (43:57):
Now we heal, okay, so what's what's When we got
to the studio, the mission was, we're doing this song
for the movie. They provided us this song. The other
EMC's ready on it, and now I'm there as Run
DMC's producer, and they're supposed to get on this on

(44:18):
this track and right, and it sounded only like the
beginning of the song didn't sound like the run DMC
part right, And I said, there's no way Run DMC
could be on this. They cannot be on this. It's like,
this sounds like a Fat Boys record. This sounds like
a Curtis blow record. That's not a Run DMC record.
I love Run DMC. This is something else. And and

(44:39):
then I said, well, the only way we could have
Run DMC on this would be if we make our
own track and drop it in in the middle where
it could sound like this is a run DMC song.
And that's it's how that ended. And I was the
only one who cared. Nobody else cared nobody, you know,
it would have just been.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
Like Larry, Larry and Curtis weren't offended. I don't. I
don't even know.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
I didn't even know who produced it. Yeah, I didn't
know that. I do remember Curtis was pissed off after saying,
how come I can't be over the part that runs on? Like?
How come he couldn't.

Speaker 1 (45:15):
Write a breakdown? Yeah? The breakdown?

Speaker 7 (45:20):
Can you talk about? You know, there's there's producer as
as song clinician and arranger and and music person, and
there's something about producer as social psychologist. And I feel
like your your life and correct me if I'm wrong.
It's sort of this weird thing that rides between them
and the great producers that I know run this line

(45:43):
that I don't fully understand how to run, and I
feel like you've mastered it and and and in your
career have sort of defined what a producer is. And
so there are some producers that are that are beat makers,
there are some producers that are songwriters. You're able to
encompass all of them. And not only in one particular genre,
but in about four or five.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
So like, I don't know.

Speaker 7 (46:03):
I mean, you call yourself a reducer, and I get
that sort of play on words, but like, I don't know,
what is it? What is it about all of that
that makes it work, that makes that makes you enjoy
what you do as well? Because that, to me is fascinating.

Speaker 3 (46:17):
I'll say that I think it always changes. At the
time that I was more of a beat making producer,
which are the days we're talking about now, was not.
I was not good at the uh psychology part and
the collaborating I was not good. I was much more
of a I know what's good and you're going to

(46:38):
do it my way, probably for my hip hop early
hip hop days. And then as I started working with
more rock bands, I started understanding more the dynamics of
working with a group of people. And now the most
interesting thing for me when I work with an artist
is I can clearly point out where I think the

(47:01):
strengths and weaknesses are. But I don't feel like it's
my responsibility to solve the weaknesses. All I have to
do is point out, like, hm, this section here isn't
as good as it could be what can we do
to make it better? Whereas in the old days, I'd
say this section isn't as good and this is what
we're going to do. Now it's this part isn't as good.

(47:24):
How do you guys suggest we fix it? And all
of that is subjective. It's all based on your opinion, right,
I mean like it's it's all how you're all. It
is his opinion. Everything, everything has to do with opinion.
The whole job, the whole job of doing this is
pure opinion.

Speaker 1 (47:39):
Yeah, that's yeah, that's.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
So learn Okay, So before before I get to the
Beastie Boys, well, unpaid Bill sort.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
Of sorry y divert, but because.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
Actually my next question leads to what you would headed
with uh unpaid Bill, which is basically, whenever you show
up and whenever you show up in the credits, two
things are bound to happen, and that is you're going to.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
Reduce the sound.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
So we already talked about the idea of you stripping
stuff down to just its bare bones and making it loud.
But it's also you really introduced the idea of cross
genres in modern hip hop music. I mean with with
run DMC having their biggest hit with Walk This Way,

(48:33):
even with the Beastie Boys, at least in their their
narrative of it, like we were making fun of smoking
in the boys rooms, and now you can go with
fight for your Right to party. But even with Johnny
Cash doing hurt, or even with Mick Jaggers singing over
and peached the President, even with the stuff with Slayer

(48:56):
or working with Neil Diamond, like there's always an element
or Kanye rhyming over industrial noises. There seems to be
a common denominator of you pushing artists. I don't willing
or unwillingly. I mean, Kanye seems like the type of
person that's like, let's let's let's go to the edge

(49:16):
of it, let's do something different, whereas like run DMC
was legendary for not liking or wanting to do Walk
This Way the way that you wanted them to do it.
So how much hold handing and Jedi mind tricks and psychology.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
It's all psychology?

Speaker 2 (49:33):
It seems like, yeah, how how much of that is
a nightmare for you when you just want to make
the damn song and leave.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
My whole relationship to it has changed over the years,
so in the case of run DMC. Then it was
frustrating and I didn't have the tools to deal with it.
But luckily Russell called called run Indee and said, just
do whatever Rick says. It's like, really knows what he's doing.
Just do what Rick says. So had that not happened,

(50:06):
they wouldn't have they wouldn't have been on the record.
That record wouldn't have happened. So that's how that happened.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
And even after Rock Box and King of Rock, they
don't know that they're on a winning formula, just like
one one moment away from super Jackpot.

Speaker 3 (50:23):
Well, this had less to do with it being a
rock song. It had more to do with singing someone
else's words and singing someone else's which they had never
done before, and singing someone else's words that they didn't
necessarily like.

Speaker 1 (50:37):
How long did that process take? Walk this way? I'm talking.

Speaker 3 (50:42):
Same as everything you know, same as everything else. The
only thing that was different was because Steve and Joe
appeared on the record. There was an extra day working
on it with those guys playing guitar and singing, singing vocals,
the guys from Merrismith.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
With the Beastie Boys, Well, first of all, I want
to know who introduced ah. I have so many questions.
Number one, the bast groove rock hard twelve inches? Who
were the Latin Rascals because I've always I've seen their
names and like all these twelve inches from eighty nine,

(51:16):
eighty three to eighty five, and then poof Nothing, Who
were the Latin Rascals.

Speaker 3 (51:22):
The Latin Rascals were two club DJs who worked at Shakedown,
Arthur Baker's studio, who invented this is pre sampler. There
were no samplers and they invented away. It was their
own style of doing remixes where they would do these

(51:44):
edits on half inch tape where they would repeat the
same like through editing. So it was like it wasn't scratching.
There was no sampling yet, and there was this other
way of manipulating the music. Yeah, and the Latin Rascals

(52:07):
invented it, and they did it on all of Arthur's
records and they did a lot of club remixes that
and I can't remember what they did on that. I
don't remember them doing anything on those, but it's possible.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
On this Party's getting rough that little see Philadelphia where
I come from has a very different relationship with this
Party's Getting rough and Hold It Now Hit It? You know,
because Lady B and her Street be show that came
on a Power ninety nine between like twelve and five

(52:41):
pm on Sundays, they made they basically made an edit
where they would play that middle sketch of this Party's
getting rough where it's like, oh man, you just fess it, man,
you know you you you didn't even turn up the
boombox and all that stuff, all the all the all
that chaos in the middle, and then they attached Tomber. Yeah,

(53:06):
this is this like the Philly anthem. So they made
they kind of made an edit. Philly made it editor
of their own of this Party's Getting rough and the
Beastie groove and just between Latin rascals and mantronics, just
the the idea of like multiple sampling or like those
crazy edits. That's all we heard. But what's even weirder

(53:30):
for Holding Now Hit It? Because of a pressing mistake.
The initial def Jam pressings of Holding Now Hit It
had the a cappella as side one, Yes, had the
a cappella as side one and the the DMX drum
Machine version.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
That's on the album as side too.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
We never heard of the drum machine version in Philly ever,
so when they're playing holding now hit it, there's no
such thing as an a cappella or you jogglingly called
it acapolca version, and we thought, yo, dude, it was such.
It was the most radical shit we ever heard because
our thing was like, the only way I canna describe it.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
Is if you ever seen pooty Tang. And when Chris.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
Rock asked, the DJ introduces that song of silence, like
and now this new song.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
Slence, I'm just saying he's friends with Chris Rock. I
don't know. Anyway.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
The whole point was that we made up in our
minds like yo, these dudes are so incredible they don't.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
Even need music and hold it now hit it.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
The a cappella was number one on the Power nine
at nine for months to the point where when we
got the album and heard that drum now, it's weird
because in Florida, every everyone from down South, I know,
even Fromier, tells the story like when you're getting your car.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
System, the song that you tested to.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
See if you're if your car system was right was
holding out hit It because you like you mix your
your joints loud as fuck. When we got that in Philly,
we didn't know what the like, Yo, what's this drum ship?
Like this ain't on the album. To this day, I
will never acknowledge the album version of holding Out Hit.

(55:30):
I will only DJ the a cappella.

Speaker 3 (55:32):
Version, but even love to hear I've never heard the
a cappella version. I'd love to hear it. I don't
remember ever hearing it. I bet it's great, probably better.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
That's crazy.

Speaker 8 (55:41):
It's your label. It's the first acapella in the history.
Like love that, Yeah, this is the first in history.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
And in working their album, like how involved are you
with with the marketing? And because I'll be honest with
you for two from eighty five till we purchased the
album and saw the gatefold cover, I didn't know the
Beastie Boys were white. We thought they were Puerto Rican
affiliate at least, So was that by design to like

(56:19):
not put them on the album cover and just ride
it out till.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
Not at all the way we did it. We didn't.
We never even thought about it. On the the seven
original Deaf Jam singles, the Maroon label singles of which
where rock Hard was one of those. I think that's
the only Beast record that was. Yeah, there was an
l there was that. There was Hollis Creek, Hollis Crew,

(56:45):
Jimmy Spicer, Jim y'all, I'm a Girl Watcher with Papa
d and Papa Son. I don't think that was on Maroon.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
Oh okay, Well there was also mc A and BAZOUDI.

Speaker 3 (56:59):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
Zuti.

Speaker 3 (57:01):
Zuti is an engineer in New York named Jay Burnett,
and he was the guy who turned me onto the
studio that we lovingly renamed chun King, the original the
original Chunk King, And the reason I called it chun
King was I didn't want anyone to know that it
was such a terrible place that we were working in,

(57:22):
so I made up Chunking.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
House of Metal was like a just the.

Speaker 3 (57:30):
The one on that was on.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
No, it's before the very.

Speaker 3 (57:36):
One, before the veryck one it was on. It was
it church between Broom and Grand something like that, across
from the there's that police building, you know, the police building.
It was on that block, five floor walk up. The
rest of the building were like sweatshops. It was a
really weird place.

Speaker 1 (57:54):
It was.

Speaker 3 (57:54):
It was really Again, I didn't know this because I
wasn't into it. But it was just a drug deal
in place I think had they just had a studio,
but it was mainly drug dealing. But I didn't know that.

Speaker 1 (58:05):
I speaking Steve, Yes, you know, speaking of which now,
I don't mean I was just reminiscent.

Speaker 9 (58:16):
I think I I think I was at that place
dropping off tapes as an intern. Yeah the first place, Yeah,
it was. I was only there once. So but we recorded.

Speaker 3 (58:26):
We recorded all of the Beat Boys stuff there. We
recorded Raising Hell there. We recorded a lot of the
early Deft Gem stuff there, maybe all of it, maybe
all of it.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
I was going to say, Steve, that that d m
X drum machine that's hanging in our studio, Yeah that's ricks.

Speaker 9 (58:47):
Yeah, I know, I know this is all tell the world.
But you know, I mean that one question knows that
in this room?

Speaker 1 (58:54):
Okay, is that a stolen or no? We know? Is it?
We you know what we had to re record.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
I can't write left handed with John Legend, and we
were running out of studios and it just so happens
that that was open, and when we got there, we
were told this is our last day and kind of
you know, I was like doing my fan boys thing like,
oh my god, this is the old chun king and no, no,
and whoever the owner was a guy he's like just

(59:23):
like on some me and Joe Green here kid catch.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
He showed me this is this d m X and
he's has created you know, all the deaf jam days
has been here forever. You know, you'll take care of
this and I took it.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
Sorry anyway that may that may or may not be true.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
Well, I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
There's multiple I'm sure there's multiple DMX drum scenes. But
I prefer my version of it was the was the
just the the flood game of Licensed to Ill? Was
that scary to you or overwhelming at the time? And
how are you guys treated by Columbia Records?

Speaker 3 (01:00:07):
By this point we were never treated well by anybody.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
Even when selling twelve million units? Yes, even then, man,
really wow?

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
So you were still we were off the red nose
the rain? I mean, was this it was this yet
Nakoff period? Was this U Matola period?

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
Like? Where was Yetnikoff? And al Teller? Those were the
people that I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
Tell her from. MCA was at Columbia.

Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
First, he was the president of Columbia at the time
that we were there.

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
Damn.

Speaker 3 (01:00:43):
The only person that I ever really dealt with on
a regular basis was Jeff Jones, who was a great guy.
He was a product manager and he now runs Apple
Records for the Beatles based in London, and he's still
around and he remembers, like, he told me stories of
things that happened back then. I didn't remember, but it
was funny, like like with License to Ill, he said.

(01:01:05):
He goes into a meeting, he's like, well, Rick Rubin says,
we can't put a barcode on the outside of the cover,
and uh, you know, we have to figure out how
we're going to do this because we've never done this before.
And that, you know, the people in the me are like,
who the fuck is Rick Rubin?

Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
What do you mean?

Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
It's like, we do this all we're doing this. Of
course it's going to have a barcode. He's like, no,
but Rick won't let us have the barcode. He's like,
he's insistent. So again, I had no memory of that.
But we would fight. We would fight for the art
to get the art the way we want it all
the time, and people just didn't know what it was,
you know, say, very little understanding of what it was

(01:01:39):
that we were doing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
Who can sceptualize the album cover for License to Ill?

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
That was me? And what was hard, I'll tell you.
I had just read the led Zeppelin book Hammer of
the Gods, about them being on tour and all the
debauchery of crazy rock stardom, and and there were images
of led Zeppelin's airplane in the book, and it just

(01:02:06):
seemed like, wow, that's just like the height of decadence.
This an airplane with this crazy rock and roll lifestyle
going on. And I thought it would be interesting to
have a beastie boy, a beastie boy airplane representing this
sort of crazy debauchery all made up. You know, none
of this was true. We were kids, We were kids

(01:02:27):
in school, you know, this was none of this was accurate.
This was a fantasy based on loving, loving led Zeppelin.
It was the fantasy of, well, what about a Beastie
Boys jumbo jet that rams into a mountain like that?
That's like the way the story ends is the it

(01:02:49):
goes with this crazy rock and roll lifestyle. And I thought, well,
because it would be a gatefold, it'd be like you'd
see the front of it, and you'd think it was
you just think it was an airplane, and then you'd
open it up and you'd get the reveal of the
back and then yeah. And then when I would drive
from my parents' house on Long Island into the city,
I would always pass the globe from the that's in

(01:03:13):
the centerfold, and I was thought, oh, it'd be great,
like someday that would be a great thing to use
in a photograph. And then the opportunity was with the
Beastie Boys.

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
The inner sleeve has anyone ever, you know, it's weird
when I seen it. I remember getting the album like
Thanksgiving of eighty six, so I would like to think
that I think the album came out in November of
eighty six, like late November, but this happened. The album
cover occurred like nine months after the Space Settle challenge thing.

Speaker 4 (01:03:46):
The challenges joint the challenge like traumatize the shit out
of me.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
Yeah, in kindergarten, yo.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
Yeah, and like so so that album and see that
like just traumatize me even more.

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
So.

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
It's weird, like I have love this.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Love relationship with with the album because it's so you know,
my monumental but it's like, ah, the nights.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
I just looked at that album cover like it's killing me.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
I didn't. I didn't know about the crash, and it
didn't I'll tell you now in I knew it at
the time, but I didn't know enough to be able
to get it the way I really wanted it. But
it never was the way I really wanted it, which
was I wanted to look more really like a photograph,
and instead it looks more like a Mad magazine cover

(01:04:37):
cartoon like it. It's more cartoony looking than I would
have liked it to be. I would have liked it
to be like photo realist.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
Who will be ohms. The artist that drew was he
a friend of yours or no?

Speaker 3 (01:04:49):
No, he was a friend of the guy who was
our art director at the label, Steve Byron was his name,
And I would just say, hey, this is the vision
for the cover. How do we get this made? And
then he had his friend he commissioned it. But which
is why it didn't come out the way I wanted
it to come out. You know, it's like, uh, so

(01:05:10):
you've seen it, We're disappointed. Yeah, I said, this isn't
really It's like the image is right, but the way
it was done was not right. It felt more like
a cartoon. But it was like, well, the you know,
the album's coming out and we have no time. It's
like okay, and to eat me that was not that
was a creative advice that did that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
I didn't know. That was not my idea?

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
So what did you think about Eminem's to it?

Speaker 1 (01:05:34):
But then I forgot you produced that? He produced that?

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Did you talk to you want it? Or did he
say I wanted to wi one? Eminem's album, Uh not
a music to be murdered by? I was the one
before that one. It was the Recovery at the pull
Up Recovery. It just came out like a year or
two ago.

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
Oh I'm looking right now to produce that. Yeah, we wait,
which would you white? Question? Which is rick? How do
you pick your projects.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
Just based on liking them, either liking the music or
liking the artist one or the other.

Speaker 1 (01:06:04):
Like Coma Cozi Sorry Kamakazi, that was it?

Speaker 3 (01:06:07):
Yeah, I didn't produced that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
Oh I thought you produced the last comic Cozi. Yikes? Okay,
I stand corrected. Well.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
Tribute to Licensed to ILLM so oh cool? Yeah, as
an album coming just.

Speaker 6 (01:06:24):
On the back of Bill's question, Rick, how come you
only did one? I noticed you only did U the
Andrew Dice Clay album, like that was your only comedian
that you work with?

Speaker 3 (01:06:33):
Well, we did. I think we did five five Andrew
Dice Clay out right right, And I always looked for
other comedians to work with, but never found there was
At one point I was interested in recording Carlos Mencia.
I don't know, oh wow, And I think we like
started talking about it, maybe even recorded a little bit,

(01:06:53):
but it just never never came together. For whatever reason.

Speaker 5 (01:06:57):
Have you gotten any more requests though comedian?

Speaker 3 (01:06:59):
Why? Well? I love Girod. I think he's incredible. I've
never thought about him doing an album, but that's a
really interesting idea.

Speaker 5 (01:07:08):
Okay, he wants it. I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
How long did you have to bug Public get him
until Chuck finally relented and signed to the label.

Speaker 3 (01:07:17):
It was a really long time. It was a long time.
I want to say it felt like forever then, but
it was probably nine months, maybe a year, but fort
you know, when you're twenty years old, a year is forever.

Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
No, that's a long time. And they had.

Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
A post it note of Chuck's number next to my phone,
and anytime I would walk by the phone, I'd see
it and I would call. And then Bill Stephanie, who
was our first employee at def JAM. He knew Chuck,
and at one point I got so frustrated, I said,
you have to tell Chuck. If he doesn't sign to
deaf Jam, I'm firing you. Like, you have to convince

(01:07:57):
him he has to do this. And it's not like
he wanted to sign to someone else. He didn't want
to make records. That was the thing. It's like, here's
your's too old. He thought he was too old.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
How did you How did you feel about the Bomb
Squad's production methods, because that's the total opposite of your
reduction love Brooch loved it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:16):
I like I like different things, you know I'm not.
I like all kinds of different things. I actually heard
something on your on your James Brown recent DJ set right.
Maybe it was nine two if I remember correctly, For
the first time I heard what I think was the

(01:08:37):
inspiration for the Bomb Squad that I'd never heard before.

Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
Wow, I have.

Speaker 3 (01:08:42):
To find I'll find it and send it to you,
just so you have for your own reference. I think
you pieced you put the pieces of a puzzle together
for me that I never knew were there. I see.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
You know during this period at least between eighty six
and eighty nine, I mean between your work with ll
and I'm curious as to why you did not produce
bigger endeavor And I always wanted to know how you
felt about like the La Posse and I Need Love
and all that stuff. But you're doing these Slayer records

(01:09:16):
and not to mention, like I mean your heart met,
Like how what is your approach to Are you just
leading from the gut or do you have like a
mapped out plan that you're explaining to the group. This
is the vision I have for you, Like how do
you work with Slayer?

Speaker 3 (01:09:32):
Just going into the studio and first going into pre production,
talking about the parts in the songs, helping make them
as good as they could be, and then figuring out
how to In their case, it was interesting because they
already were popular, a popular underground band. Like the night
I saw them they sold out the Ritz, which was

(01:09:52):
pretty substantial place I saw them at. The Rits blew
my mind. It's like, I like heavy music. I never
heard of these guys before, and this is one of
the craziest, heaviest concerts I've ever seen in my life.
How is this? It's like a parallel universe that this exists.
And and I talked to them that night after the
show and then ended up flying out meeting them in

(01:10:14):
California after that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):
Who was there drummer?

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
Because I've never heard I've never heard someone play double
kick that intense.

Speaker 1 (01:10:23):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 3 (01:10:26):
You know, not not only is it intense, it's funky.
That's the He's the only of all the heavy metal
drummers I've ever heard who play in that double kick
drum style. He's the only one where it's groovy. Maybe
Lars isn't that Lars thing though, That's not what Lars does. Okay,

(01:10:50):
that's what Lars does groovy. Lars does something else. So
it's more like a prog a fast prog rock drummer.

Speaker 2 (01:10:57):
So some kid at school puts me on you know,
by the time I get a nation of millions, some
kid puts me onto Random Blood and then uh plays yeah, yeah,
she you know when I was listening to she watch
Channel Zone and they're like, well, you know, that's that's
a Slayer song and playing the original journ and then
like I started buying.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
The records just as the complete its.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
But yeah, trying to play that ship because there was
like a hard rock band that I joined, like in
high school for like four months, but I quit because
like I can't do double foot action that good. But
it's like, how did you capture those performances? Like are
there jam sessions?

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
Are there?

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
Like, guys, here's a chorus's or is it just like okay,
open e open minor just boss the wall go.

Speaker 3 (01:11:44):
No no, no no no. They they wrote the songs.
I came in. I said, maybe this part's too long,
maybe this part's too short, maybe we need another part here.
But very it's all them, it's all them. And Slayer
were unbelievable, and then it was just properly recording them
in a way not to screw it up. And here
was a big breakthrough. Sonic breakthrough in my mind was

(01:12:10):
the only records you could hear that were that approached
that speed at that time would be like Metallica's first record.
I think that's all that was out. I don't even
think their second record was out yet. And yeah, but Metallica,
those records were recorded like a traditional rock band, which

(01:12:30):
again it like it goes back to the hip hop
argument in the beginning, it's like nobody's looking at the
thing for what it is, to make it the best
version of what it is. People are looking at Okay. Well,
on rock records, we use big drum sounds with long
with long reverbs. Yeah, long reverbs, long sounds, and that's

(01:12:51):
what makes them sound big. But if you're playing fast,
and if you do that, it's just a blur. You
don't hear anything. It's just exactly so I'm looking at Okay,
this band's incredible, and they play tight and fast, and
the key is how do we get it to sound
like like you're listening to them with a magnifying glass,

(01:13:16):
not how do you blend it together into an impressionist painting.
So in the case of Slayer, it was, okay, how
do we make the drums sounds super tight, super tiny,
because the speed of the drums, the only way you're
going to even be able to hear it is if

(01:13:37):
they're basically taps, you know, like tiny little taps. So
it really a lot of it has to do with
in each of these cases of the things that I've
on the records where I've worked on where they sound
different than the records that came before them. It was
only looking at them for what they are and figuring

(01:13:59):
out how do we make this thing sound good? Not
how do we use the baggage of the past, how
do we apply old methods to this? It's how do
we what's right for what this is?

Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
So how do you know the difference between what to
give a slayer as opposed to like the word that
you did with the cull as far as rock sounds
are concerned.

Speaker 1 (01:14:23):
Now, I know you know, like how much.

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
Research do you have to put into the acts that
you work with to know.

Speaker 1 (01:14:32):
What their strengths and their weaknesses are.

Speaker 3 (01:14:35):
I put no research in whatsoever. But the research that
I do is as a fan all the time, listening
to music all the time, and I listen and then
based on what I'm hearing, I'll make suggestions just based
on whatever whatever little bit that I've picked up from
listening to music my whole life.

Speaker 1 (01:14:57):
We should probably be asking to LL this.

Speaker 2 (01:14:58):
But since you were there to help make the track,
what exactly went between LL and cool Mode that made
him make Jack the Ripper?

Speaker 3 (01:15:10):
I remember it? Yeah, I don't know that anything happened.
I think it might have just been that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
I mean, did you realize that you were making a
cool mod diss record.

Speaker 3 (01:15:21):
Nope, and one of the first disc records. I never
thought about it.

Speaker 5 (01:15:26):
That was your boy friend back in the day.

Speaker 1 (01:15:28):
Yeah, I loved him.

Speaker 3 (01:15:31):
You You never thought about it that way at all.

Speaker 1 (01:15:35):
And it goes back to.

Speaker 4 (01:15:36):
Your go go love too, because it was the Chuck
Brown tample, the sol disamble.

Speaker 1 (01:15:40):
Yeah. Oh yeah, I forgot. I forgot that. Ashley's George's
clip is yeah, Chuck, it's not just the paint and
full break Yeah. How how Uh? What was your experience
like shooting Tougher than Leather?

Speaker 3 (01:15:57):
Terrible experience you directed?

Speaker 6 (01:15:58):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
I was gonna say, Okay, I'm a first time director.

Speaker 1 (01:16:04):
What what what can you what? What? What advice can
you give me? I mean, sorry, my movie's already.

Speaker 3 (01:16:10):
Done, so okay. I was going to say, if you
have an opportunity not to do it, don't leave.

Speaker 1 (01:16:15):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
Okay, So tell me about your experience in directing Tougher
than Leather?

Speaker 3 (01:16:20):
Uh, Well, where I didn't know what I was doing.
In the recording studio, it was easy because there were
so few people there and mistakes were low and on
a movie set, there are many more people, and the
schedule is like, Hey, I'm going to be an hour
late to the studio today. Talk to you, talk to

(01:16:41):
you guys later, No problem, movie sets not like that.
It's like everything was and yeah, and we were our
whole lives were you know, I slept until I never
took a class before three in the afternoon when I
went to n YU, because I slept until probably one,
and then we went out all night every night. So

(01:17:03):
the idea of showing up on a movie set at
six o'clock in the morning every day, that wasn't anything
that I anticipated, and that was not a It was
not a realistic ask in the way my life worked.
So it was a terrible experience and I wouldn't wish
it on, wouldn't wish it on my enemy.

Speaker 2 (01:17:24):
Did you insist on directing that movie or was it
like you had an upcoming aprier to do it or
something like? How did you wind up holding the director's manual?

Speaker 3 (01:17:38):
Me and my friend Rick wrote the idea. It was
Rick was really more the writer than I. We would
throw ideas together, but Rick was the main writer. Rick
Manelo and who was the guy who ran the desk
at my dorm, so he'd be the night He would
work at the dorm from midnight to six. He was
the night watchman essentially, and the dorm was pretty quiet

(01:17:59):
from nine to six, so I would usually get home
from the club two three and I would sit there
with Rick and we would order food from Cozy Supenberger
around the corner, and we would watch watch old movies
on TV. And he was a film major and film
historian new tremendous amount and then in later years ended up,
you know, working with Darren Aronofski and James Gray. James Gray,

(01:18:24):
some great directors, and all of my friends who were
directors would always anytime anyone I knew who made movies
had a movie question, they would all call Rick Minelo
because he knew more than everybody that Rick Minelo was
the main scriptwriter. He's in it too. I can't remember
what his character. He was played, sort of the sidekick

(01:18:45):
guy to my guy. I can't remember his character's name.
I can't remember. I really blocked out a lot about
that movie. Actually, he was also in the Beastie Boys
video for No Sleep Till Brooklyn. He was like the club,
you know, in the beginning there's like a skit with
a that's Rick Minelo.

Speaker 1 (01:19:07):
So he's been in a few Deaf Jam.

Speaker 3 (01:19:11):
Products or yes, and he directed Going Back to Cali
as well. Oh the video of Going Back to Cali,
which we storyboarded together at the desk at Weinstein the
dormitory at NYU.

Speaker 2 (01:19:24):
Okay, So something I don't know, and I don't know
if you ever went on record. I never knew how
or why you left Deaf Jam. I just remember your
name being on the executive producer for a Nation of Millions,
and then when I looked for your name on Fear
of a Black Planet, you weren't there anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:19:47):
And then I next I heard of you. You had
a funeral for the word deaf.

Speaker 2 (01:19:53):
So what I mean, why did you decide to leave
the your your your first love?

Speaker 3 (01:20:01):
It really had to There were two things going on.
One was over the time together ever many years. It
was three, four or five years. My relationship with Russell
was starting to I wouldn't say it ever turned bad,
because we were always good friends, but it felt like
our what we wanted was changing, and I felt like

(01:20:24):
I really loved our friendship and didn't want our friendship
to end, and I thought, if we remained partners, our
friendship's probably going to end, so maybe it's better just
not to be partners anymore. And then there was something
going on that really triggered. It had to do with
the way we were being treated by Columbia and what

(01:20:44):
we needed Columbia to do to fix the situation for
our artists. For example, I remember the first time we
went to England and the guy at Columbia basically told us,
you know, we're just we're not interested in your records,
said they said, we look at Columbia records in New
York as an albatross, and it's nothing against you personally,

(01:21:07):
but because you come from them, we're just not really interested.

Speaker 1 (01:21:11):
Even though you're making that money. Yeah, I'm in eighty seven.

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
You guys are so more units than Michael Jackson's bed.

Speaker 1 (01:21:21):
Yeah, and yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:21:23):
It was unbelievable. I had a meeting with Al Teller
at the time, who's the president of the company, and
told him all of my concerns and I talked for
a half hour and I got really emotional. I started
crying because again, I care so much about this shit.
It's my whole life. And at the end of the conversation,
I say, you know, we got to we have to
figure out a way to fix this, because if not,

(01:21:46):
I have to leave. Like I can't. I can't keep
doing this. I can't put my heart into this and
have partners who don't care or who are not going
as hard as they can, as hard as we're going.
I can't do this. And and this after a half
hour of my I remember, I had a pad, and
I listed all the things that were wrong in the relationship.

(01:22:07):
Whatever if I would have known that they put the
wrong a side on the record, that that's an example
they've been on the list. Yeah, it's like, but that
was indicative of what it was like. It was like
nobody really cared. These guys do this ship that we
don't understand, and luckily it sells, but we don't know
what it is, and we don't really care what it is.

(01:22:28):
We just don't want it to stop. But they always
on one with Yetnikov or one on one with Dianor
or Mattola, none of those guys. Einer wasn't there, Matola
wasn't there. Yet It was so the guy al Teller
was the president of the company. Mattola was his boss,

(01:22:49):
but he wasn't really involved in what the day to
day of Columbia records. So I had this meeting with
the guy, the right person to have a meeting with.
I have this meeting. I have a heartfelt, emotional He's
sitting there holding a baseball bat through the meeting because he, yeah,
he saw himself as kind of like tough. So he's
sitting there holding this baseball bat. I'm talking twenty minutes,

(01:23:11):
twenty five minutes. I'm crying at the end and telling
them finally that if we can't work this stuff out,
we can't get to the bottom of this. I gotta leave.
And I said, you know, I never signed a contract.
Russell signed the contract. I never signed anything. So I'm
gonna have to leave. And he said, wait, wait a minute,
wait a minute, what did you just say. And I said,
I said I never Yeah, I said I never signed

(01:23:33):
a contract. You know, only Russell signed. And he said, okay,
wait a minute. You're going to have to start back
at the beginning because I wasn't listening to anything. You
were saying.

Speaker 1 (01:23:44):
That sound effect with me.

Speaker 3 (01:23:46):
This is this is really, this is real.

Speaker 1 (01:23:52):
So how long until death? Americans started right away?

Speaker 3 (01:23:56):
Because when I left Fjam I had already started, like
Slayer was signed to death Jam originally, Danzig was signed
to deaf Jam originally, and Dice. I can't remember if
Dice was if I had already signed Dice or not.
When I remember going out to lunch with Russell and saying,
you know, this isn't going to work. I don't the

(01:24:17):
relationship with Columbia's bad. And oh so what that meeting
that I told you about, the start at the beginning
again meeting? When that meeting, after that meeting, I told Russell,
you know this is not good. We can't do this anymore.
And the way that Colombia ended up fixing it was

(01:24:38):
to write a big check to death Jam without dealing
with any of the problems. It was just a check
and Russell was cool with that, and I was not
cool with that. So that was sort of the you
know what, I don't think we can do this anymore,
Like this doesn't feel right. And I said to him,
I said, do you want to leave the company? And
he said I don't want to leave and I said, okay,

(01:24:59):
I guess I'll have to leave. And it was just
like that.

Speaker 2 (01:25:02):
It wasn't I thought that, Yeah, yikes, because you left
before well you left after the Beasties left, correct.

Speaker 3 (01:25:12):
Well left after the Beasties left. Yeah, yeah, how did
did you?

Speaker 4 (01:25:16):
And like uh at Rock or any of them, did
y'all have have conversations about why you both left or where?

Speaker 1 (01:25:23):
Interesting?

Speaker 3 (01:25:24):
Interestingly, interestingly, we have never really discussed it, and it's
definitely an elephant in the room that would be good
to discuss, and we just never did. But I'm sure
it'll happen. It may happen next week, like it'll happen.

Speaker 1 (01:25:38):
What were your thoughts on Paul's boutique?

Speaker 3 (01:25:41):
Loved it, thought it was the I remember listening to
it at the Mandrian Hotel, me and Chuck d together.
We were We were there because I think Public Enemy
was going to appear somewhere in California. I don't know
whether it was a club date or a TV show,
but we're at the Mandre on we got an advance.
I don't even know if it was in advance. It
might have just been like from the studio like they
had just finished it and me and Chuck listened to

(01:26:04):
it and we both thought, oh my god, this is
the greatest thing we've ever heard. This is the future
hip hop like this is. It doesn't get better than this,
and we were shocked that it was not as well
received as we thought it deserved to be.

Speaker 2 (01:26:18):
Thing that I remembered the most, at least your first
year of Death American, was all the press that you
got as far as the Ghetto Boys were concerned. How
did they come, how did they come across your radar?
And what was it about them that drew each to them?
And all the ensuing controversy that came with them, Like.

Speaker 3 (01:26:44):
Yeah, I had never heard like NWA was already happening.
Well maybe just the Easy E album. I don't know
if there was an NWA album yet. There was an
Easy E album for sure, and I loved Easy E.
And then I heard the Ghetto Boys and I felt like, oh,
like where NWA was gangster, this is like hard in

(01:27:09):
that way, but more like more unhinged, more like horror
like like violent but not violent like a bad drug
deal gone wrong, like violent like a horror movie, you know,
like dismemberment crazy. And I just liked the how extreme

(01:27:31):
it was. It spoke to me right away, and I
thought that the album didn't sound It didn't sound as
good as it could have. So I remixed the album.
I didn't add anything to it, or I just basically
remixed the album and changed the cover and changed the
name because they were called the Ghetto Boys g hgg yeah,

(01:27:53):
and I thought, you know it, it sounds too ordinary,
like they could be the Ghetto Boys, which would be
the get Old Boys, just because it I don't know,
I just thought it was more interesting, would look better
on T shirts as well.

Speaker 1 (01:28:07):
Okay, so, how how much of I'm in now?

Speaker 2 (01:28:13):
It's like, especially in the environment that we're in right now,
as far as like uh, right wing Republican Christian news
talking points and those things like you know, now it's
sort of like you collectively roll your eyes or that,
you know, like that side of the fence is lying.

(01:28:36):
But back in nineteen eighty nine, ninety like, they it
seemed like real threats. And I remember I knew the
Ghetto Boys because one Chuck Jees chucked Thees shouted them
out on fear of a Black Panet Planet album. But
all the controversy of Scarface's lyrics being faling points for

(01:29:01):
everybody running for Senate, any Republican running for Senate or
the House using this thing like to this was this
manner from heaven like for you is, I had controversy
and bad news, like, yes, this is what I want
to be your parents' worst nightmare.

Speaker 3 (01:29:18):
This is the first TI I'm ever hearing of that
being the case.

Speaker 1 (01:29:22):
What you mean, Ted White? Ted White? I think who
ran Billboard? Oh man?

Speaker 2 (01:29:28):
He wrote like paragraphs and dissertation of mind of all
I would have never ever like the surefireway to get
a seventeen eighteen year old to buy the ship. It's
because Ted White could not a billboard, could not stop
writing about how violent Scarface's mind of a lunatic was

(01:29:49):
and this needs to be banned and shit. I was like, word,
I'm gonna buy this shit. Yeah, Lama parents hated it
must be good.

Speaker 3 (01:29:56):
Yeah. I always like crazy shit, you know, I like
edgy crazy shit. It's interesting to me. It's fun.

Speaker 2 (01:30:06):
But you do realize like being parents' worst nightmare.

Speaker 1 (01:30:11):
Is also like that's great marketing.

Speaker 2 (01:30:14):
That's a regged execs candy like that. That's so that
never excited you at all.

Speaker 3 (01:30:20):
No, I never never thought about it because usually I
would have to get the calls more like the record
company not wanting to put it out, you know, that's
what I had to deal with, Like Slayer, Columbia Records
refused to put out that Slayer record, So then I
had to find a new way to release it, even
though the first one was on Deaf Jam, but it
wasn't through Columbia because they refused to release it. Then

(01:30:42):
I made a deal with Geffen Records, which is where
that went. And then in my deal with Geffen, I
had to have complete creative control where they could never
come to me and say they're not going to put
something out. And then when it came to Andrew Dice
Clay or the Ghetto Boys, You're like, well, we're not
going to put it out. It's like the whole reason
I'm at your company is because I need a safe

(01:31:03):
place to put out crazy shit. That's why I'm here.
This is what I do. And you'll see when you
look back on it in time, it'll be the right decision.
It'll be like you're too you're too close to the
story now. But if you look back in history, important
things often stick out like saw thumbs in their day

(01:31:25):
and are hated or vilified, or they burned Beatles albums.
You know, yeah, man, Elvis was the you know the Devil.

Speaker 2 (01:31:36):
What was it about the Black Crows that excited you
to sign them to the label? Did you sign all
the acts that were at least on the first run
of Deaf Americans to the label or was it like,
did you have a full staff and.

Speaker 3 (01:31:48):
You know didn't. I didn't have a full staff. But
there was my friend who I went to school with
named George Treculius, who who's been called out on a
Beastie record.

Speaker 2 (01:31:58):
Maybe well, he's also been my boss the few movies
that I scored.

Speaker 1 (01:32:02):
George.

Speaker 2 (01:32:03):
If you're clearing music in movies, Georgia Koliac, is that
that's your guy that you work with?

Speaker 3 (01:32:08):
Okay, great? So George was he was an inter. It's funny.
I was an intern at Deaf Jam when I owned
Deaf Jam at NYU. And the reason I was an
intern was because then I got school credit for working
at Deaf Jam. George was. George was my intern at

(01:32:30):
Deaf Jam where he got credit in the dorm, and
then there was a time when he was my roommate
in the dorm if I remember correctly. And George he
found the Black Crows and that was his both his
signing and his production. That was his vision and the
Jayhawks as well. He signed the Jayhawks and never.

Speaker 1 (01:32:52):
Told me that. Wow, I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (01:32:55):
Hey, wait all these old Deaf jam questions are coming
back to me now. The the storyline to crust groof
how much of that was actual life. I'm trying to
get to the kind of uncut Jim's robbing Peter to

(01:33:15):
pay Paul narrative of like did you guys ever have
Like that's the storyline of having to borrow money to
press up twelve inches or to keep up with demand.

Speaker 3 (01:33:28):
That's holly Hollywood fakery. That's none of that.

Speaker 1 (01:33:32):
Okay, just check it, just check it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:37):
So outside of Deaf American recordings, can you talk about
your your your work with with Johnny Cash and how
you got him back to his glory point, because I mean,
I would imagine before you two worked together he was
sort of waning in the creative department at least, like

(01:33:59):
with the last four records that he worked on with you.
That was like probably one of the best storied comebacks
in a music career.

Speaker 1 (01:34:07):
What was it like working with him?

Speaker 3 (01:34:13):
Coolest thing, coolest thing that ever happened in my life.
He was a beautiful brilliant, humble, interesting, quiet guy who
studied history. He had a tremendous amount of wisdom that
he didn't offer unless you drew him out. He was
pretty reserved, but if you asked him about stuff, he

(01:34:37):
would tell you about it. And he knew a lot
about a lot of things, and a tremendous amount about
music and the history of country music and folk music.
And I learned a tremendous amount being around him.

Speaker 2 (01:34:49):
Did you get a chance to personally know him? Like
was he telling you stories of recording for Son and
that whole million dollar session thing and everything you ever
wanted to know?

Speaker 3 (01:35:00):
And he would I got to know him personally well.
He would stay at my house when he came to
LA I would say, at his house if I went
to Nashville. I don't know how much we talked about
old times unless there was a specific reason to her.
If I had a particular interest, he would tell me
stories about about Sam Phillips. Though, okay, oh wow, he

(01:35:24):
loved Sam Phillips.

Speaker 2 (01:35:25):
Which artist opens up to you the most as far
as uh, I don't know if you have the same
relationship with say A jay Z that you would with
Anthony Keatis So I know there's different degrees of getting
to know your clients as you're producing them. And I
know there's an an artist producer trust that has to

(01:35:47):
be established, but I know there's different degrees of that
of like which artists I mean, And this is not
asking what's your favorite artist you've worked with, but who's
who's the closest. Who do you know the best that
you feel comfortable that you're just actual friends with, like
really friends?

Speaker 1 (01:36:08):
Is that the mars? Well, the guys? Is it?

Speaker 3 (01:36:11):
I feel like I'm friends with a lot a lot
of them. I'm just thinking if there are any unique standouts,
I would say the people who I've made the most
albums with. That plays a role, just because you're around
them more, you know, it's just more hours together.

Speaker 1 (01:36:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:36:30):
So, like I've been around the Chili Peppers a lot,
so I probably know them better than somebody who I
did you know a couple of songs with like jay Z.
But I feel very comfortable when I hang out with
jay Z. I feel like pretty good friends feels good.

Speaker 5 (01:36:45):
I me just so close with Andrew Dice play though,
I'm just saying I was.

Speaker 3 (01:36:50):
I was pretty close with Dice. I would go out
every night to the comedy store after my session, and
we would hang out in the kitchen of the comedy Storre.
Chris Rock would be there often also.

Speaker 2 (01:37:01):
I mean with the Chili Peppers, how do you how
do you see their growth as from where they were
in nineteen ninety one. I'd assume that Blood Sugar, Sex
Magic was the first time you work with them.

Speaker 1 (01:37:18):
You didn't do Mother's Milk?

Speaker 3 (01:37:19):
Correct, No, No, although I like I thought Mother's Milk
was their best record to date. That was the Mother's
Milk was the record that made me excited to work
with them.

Speaker 2 (01:37:31):
Okay, so how is it working with them and managing
their you know whatever, you have to juggle to make
it right as opposed to once they became more like
a comfortable shoe that you were familiar with.

Speaker 3 (01:37:49):
I'll say, I think it's the same. I don't think.
I think the goal is always to treat people respectfully
and honestly, and that happens regardless of how deep the
relationship is. I don't I don't think that changes. It's
pretty much the thing we're there to do looks the

(01:38:10):
same either way. The only other thing that I'll say
with the artists who I've made many records with another
like System of a Down, I made all of their albums.
With the bands that that I've worked with several times,
there there gets to be a shorthand where like usually
the first record we make together, same Tom, Petty, all

(01:38:30):
of them. The first record we make together takes the
longest because we're like.

Speaker 1 (01:38:35):
Filling each other out.

Speaker 3 (01:38:36):
Yeah, like figuring out a vocabulary of how we're going
to do it. But once that's established, it's much easier
after that, but only only out of just that decoding,
you know, decoding the system.

Speaker 2 (01:38:51):
Do you prefer piecemeal projects as far as getting you know,
they just say, look, I just want one song like
you did one song on Justin Timberlake's record for Future
Sex Sounds. Damn that sounds sex Love Sounds, Future Sex
Magic Sounds.

Speaker 1 (01:39:10):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:39:12):
As opposed to doing an entire album, what would you
what do you prefer?

Speaker 3 (01:39:18):
I really like making albums. I don't like doing songs
because I think that the nature of the process to
get to an album, to get to one song, or
to get to an album could be the same amount
of experimentation. Do you know what I'm saying? Like to

(01:39:41):
find the voice. If you're working on one song, it
takes just as long to figure out what that is.
It may be longer because in a way, when you're
working on one shot, you only got one shot and
it's hard to even know the way in. But sometimes
you'd be working on twenty songs and one song you're like, oh,

(01:40:02):
that's the key to the whole thing. Now we know
how it's all gonna work.

Speaker 2 (01:40:07):
Do you do you ever run into a situation in
which where that trust isn't isn't there where you know
an artist is stubborn, they feel that you know, well,
you know. I'm giving a hypothetical example. I don't know,
like if you can tell Adele okay, sing this shit again,

(01:40:28):
give me take nine and she'll knock it out the
part as opposed to again convincing the beastie boys that
fight for your right is the song and trust me
on this one?

Speaker 1 (01:40:42):
Like how much trust me on this one?

Speaker 3 (01:40:44):
End? Quote?

Speaker 2 (01:40:45):
Do you have to go through in your post in
your post def Jam post American Recordings career? It's like
now in terms of like working with Neil Diamond or
even James.

Speaker 3 (01:40:58):
Blake, Yeah, most never, almost never trust me on this one.
I don't like that. The goal is to And I
always say at the beginning of a project, it's like
everyone has to like it. Everyone here has to love it.
If I love it and you don't love it, we failed.

(01:41:19):
If you love it and I don't love it, we failed.
It just means we haven't gone far enough if we
don't all love it.

Speaker 1 (01:41:26):
Have you ever had to walk away from a project.

Speaker 3 (01:41:29):
I've never had to walk away, but I've been walked
away on I'm not a quitter. I don't I don't
quit projects. But there have been there have been a
I can tell you. I can tell you about a couple. Okay,
tell me we tried like I started an album with Crosby,
Sills and Nash and ten years ago twelve okay twelve ten,

(01:41:51):
about ten years ago, and it was a and there
was a case of there being a lack of trust,
but the lack of trust more had to do with themselves, well,
like within the band. Like there's another interesting thing. When
the Chili Peppers first asked me to produce them, it
was before Blood Sugar Sex Magic. It was two albums
before that. Sally Think it was Freaky Sily, the one,

(01:42:13):
the one where it was all of the original members.
And I remember a friend of mine, Yeah, whichever one
had all of the original members, because a friend of
mine said, who loved them, said, if you're ever going
to produce the Chili Peppers, now is the time. It's
all of the original members. This is the time. So
me and Adam Harrovitz, beastie boy Adam Harvitz, went to

(01:42:36):
a rehearsal in La on Sunset Boulevard of the Chili
Peppers at that time, and there was just a weird,
bad vibe in the room. Had nothing to do with us.
It was just between them. It felt shady, and I
didn't know what it was. Now I've come to learn
later it was drugs, but I didn't I didn't know that.
I didn't know what to look for at that time.
I just felt like I think it was before he died. Yes,

(01:43:00):
but there was a sense that these guys don't trust
each other, like they didn't look at each other with
like it just felt shaky. The whole thing felt shaky,
and it felt like, I don't really think this is
right for me to be around, Like I don't know
how to do this. And another one was Joe Cocker.
I went into the studio with Joe Cocker. I had

(01:43:22):
it at the time that I produced a CDC, and
I got Malcolm Young to play rhythm guitar on Joe
Cocker record, Mike Campbell from the Heartbreakers, Benmont from the Heartbreakers.
It was a really good band. It was really good
session and Joe I wanted it to be a very raw, guttural,

(01:43:46):
emotional album. And Joe saw himself more like Sting. He
wanted it to be more like a Sting.

Speaker 1 (01:43:54):
Album, like Jazzy Sank, like.

Speaker 7 (01:43:59):
Very produced, adult, very adult.

Speaker 2 (01:44:04):
A man he wanted, he want, he wanted his Grammy moment,
and and I.

Speaker 3 (01:44:10):
Just it wasn't. It wasn't so much as I don't
feel like I quit. It was just like our visions
were so different that it just no one was really interested.
We didn't nobody wanted to make the same thing, so
that one didn't happen. Yes, but considering how many albums
I've made, I could count on one hand, less than
one hand, how many times it has not worked out.

Speaker 1 (01:44:33):
You mentioned a c DC, and I'm gonna forget this question.

Speaker 2 (01:44:36):
Are are they do they have an iota or or
are they even remotely aware of how much flick of
the Switch has changed your life personally.

Speaker 3 (01:44:50):
Other than what I told them, you know, I told
I would tell them it's like their their music.

Speaker 1 (01:44:57):
They have no idea that that one note has. Oh
is that where it's from?

Speaker 3 (01:45:02):
I don't even know. I just ran on.

Speaker 1 (01:45:06):
No, no, I knocked the bells and just the the
trademark Rick Rubin is okay. I always wanted to know.

Speaker 3 (01:45:16):
I wouldn't even know. It's so funny. I wouldn't have
even known that that's what it was. I just literally
every time it's like, oh, I think it's on an
ac DC record, and I just hunt through every track
until I find something.

Speaker 2 (01:45:28):
Something like that. Man, Okay, so El's sophomore record.

Speaker 3 (01:45:35):
It's an interesting, unusual, unusual story. I don't believe I've
ever told it publicly. At the time that I met Elle,
he was being raised. His mom was in the picture,
but he's mainly being raised by his grandmother, and he
didn't know his dad. And then we made our first

(01:45:56):
album together, and then he became cool J probably seventeen
at that time. And then ELL's dad appears, Oh wow,
and he comes back, and Ell obviously wants his dad
and his and Russell was managing Ell, and Ell, if

(01:46:22):
I remember correctly fired Russell and hired Jimmy, his dad,
to be his manager, and I just I just felt
like it was a bad vibe. Like I never discussed
it with L. We never talked about it. It just
felt like something's going on here that's dark, and this

(01:46:46):
is not energy for me to be around. This is
good is not going to come from this situation, and
I just sort of bowed out and then it ended
up it ended up turning bad sometime. I don't know
how much longer, but I think there ended up being
problems between Ell and his dad after that. But it
just it just felt too shady, felt too I didn't

(01:47:10):
like that they were not nice to Russell when Russell
really cared about L, like firing a guy who was
really working for you. This new guy coming in the
scene kind of under questionable. Yes he was his dad,
but still why wasn't he his dad before? He was
all cool, just right. It was just it just felt
very weird.

Speaker 1 (01:47:30):
Can you explain to me what exactly was your role
in Jesus.

Speaker 2 (01:47:39):
And in the life of Pablo, because it just to
see the credits on the albums I'm just assuming that
you're in a room with over twelve to twenty chefs
and everyone's just throwing ideas in well, just based on
looking at the album credits, like.

Speaker 3 (01:48:01):
Exactly, it's not not exactly how it worked. Kanye built
up the material over years for the for that what
ended up being uses.

Speaker 1 (01:48:14):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:48:16):
When he first came he called me. He called me
and said, hey, I want to come over and play
you my new album. Okay, It's like great. He came
over and we listened to three hours of music yo
with almost no vocals, like just yes, and it's like wow, cool,
it's like off to a good start. What do you know?

(01:48:38):
What are you thinking you're going to you know, make
you think you'll finish next year or something. He's like,
it's coming out in three weeks, where I said what
it's like it made no sense. And then and I
played on Black Sabbath. I said, you know, I have
this Black Sabbath album that's done and mastered and that's
not coming out in three weeks. That's coming out later

(01:49:00):
than that. It's like this, this is what it sounds
like when it's coming out in three weeks. And he said,
I want you to help me finish it. I want
it to be like, let's finish it. And it was
a terrifying experience because I'd never worked on anything like that.

(01:49:21):
I don't like to work on a deadline ever. Anyway,
it's like I always feel like it. It sort of
happens as it's supposed to happen. Some things happened very quickly,
some things take a long time. ELL's first album probably
took less than a month to record. And when I
say less than a month, meaning a song a day
that's on the album over the course of a month,

(01:49:44):
you know what I'm saying. Not in the studio every
day for a month, like I got a new track,
let's go in on Thursday. That happening totally a month.
Whereas the First beast With the First Beasties album was
probably two years in the making, and it just took
that long. It just took not every day again, it

(01:50:06):
was like, I gotcha. It just takes a long time
because the you're waiting for the ideas to come. It's
like it's not pre written, we're writing it now.

Speaker 1 (01:50:15):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:50:15):
Most of the artists I work with, we don't go
into the studio until it's mostly all written, so it's
a different it's a different experience, and that could happen
in a much shorter time.

Speaker 6 (01:50:25):
Wait, so did Kanye already have his verses written but
they just weren't on on the tracks?

Speaker 3 (01:50:30):
No? No, Well, it wasn't even clear what the songs
were going to sound like or what was going to
be on the album. It was a very wide range
of songs and it was super cool. It was cool.
I've come to learn that's the way he works. This
was I never worked like that before, so it was
unusual to me. To him, it was standard in the past.

(01:50:51):
When I've said he wrote you know, half of the
lyrics on the last two days, that like I'm saying
he doesn't care about it. That's not at all the case.
It's his process is living with it. He's singing to
himself internally all the time, and he doesn't like to commit.
He doesn't commit it down until it's going to stay

(01:51:15):
because otherwise it's going to change. So he doesn't like
if he would have done if he would have played
me songs with vocals done, the album already would have
been out right in the way he works.

Speaker 2 (01:51:26):
Yeah, I was going to say, I remember whatever day
that Yeesues came out, I remember texting you maybe like
three days before, just on some okay, is it going
to happen or not? Because I think they had a
pushback date or whatever. There was like a day that

(01:51:48):
I was supposed to come out and it didn't, and
you were like, we're literally in the middle of trying to.

Speaker 1 (01:51:55):
Wrap up right now.

Speaker 2 (01:51:57):
And I was like, wait a minute, if you're in
the middle trapping like doing it right now, then is
the record pressed up? And like I'm thinking in terms
of the old system where you had to turn it
in three months ahead of time, factory all those things,
and literally, well even with Pablo, you guys were still
editing and changing it. And next thing I knew I

(01:52:18):
had three different versions of the Pablo record because he
just kept changing over again.

Speaker 3 (01:52:23):
I remember when we finished Yesus and it came out
about a week later. A week or two later, kind
of came to the studio in Malibu and just we
just started talking about what do you think's next, Like
what do you think the next one's going to be like?
And he was kind of excited to at least start
marching in a direction, and we just started brainstorming and

(01:52:45):
we had an idea then that actually ended up it
ended up not being so much what not so much
what Pablo's like, but it has come around to that eventually.
But the but after we had a similar conversation the end.
When Pablo got delivered, I was in Hawaii and I
remember getting you know, new versions of the album every

(01:53:06):
day to listen to and give my notes. And I
was giving notes every day. It's like I just listened.
I would drive up and down the road here in
Kawhi and listen and like, Okay, this is you know,
this is working. Let's remix this, Let's try this, and
whatever notes, you know, anything that I could add to
help make it better. And then I talked to Kanye again,

(01:53:27):
like it was now ritual a couple of weeks after
the record comes out and and I say, oh, so
what are you thinking about? What are you what are
you working on? He's like, I'm working on this mix
on so and so. It's one of the songs on Pablo.
It's like, that's out. What are you talking about. He's like, well, yeah,
it's out, but I'm not done yet, like really, like

(01:53:49):
I it just like blew my mind. The conversation blew
my mind because up until well yeah, in my over
the course of my life. Once it came out, that
was it.

Speaker 1 (01:54:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:54:02):
Yeah, So to just that his ability to see passworal
just because that's the way it always is. That means
the way it is. No, it's like, if I want
to change it, I'll change it, and I'll change as
many times as I want. It's like, it's incredible, blew
my mind. Loved it.

Speaker 2 (01:54:18):
Wow to me hearing hearing the Yesus record, and you know,
I admit that I'd consume most of my music now
via my iPhone and my computer, not in the same
way that I would have, you know, twenty years ago,
like put it in the stereoptics and yeah, that sort
of thing. So first I was, I was the mix

(01:54:41):
was just really harsh to me. And then once I
heard it in Madison Square Garden with no drums, I mean,
the thing was like, drums is almost non existent on
this record. And then I realized that, oh wow, this
album was made for stadiums and datum is only when

(01:55:01):
you guys are working in the studio are you blasting
the music at the highest levels possible? Like is he
violating the don't kill your ears in the studio thing,
or because I was taught like when you're in the studio,
you're supposed to have soft volumes, so that way you
don't kill your ears when you're mixing. But I know,

(01:55:21):
like rappers, not to peg him as quote rappers, but
I know that we you know, want to hear that
shit loud and you know, hit the OX button now
like that sort of thing.

Speaker 3 (01:55:32):
But uh, we listen. We listen at realistic levels. So
in other words, if the thing we're making is meant
to be heard loud, we listen to it loud. And
we don't have giant speakers. We just use regular you know,
like the monitors that would sit on the desk. We
don't use big giant monitors. Okay, Kanye uses some some

(01:55:57):
big ones with with that are much louder than the
ones that we have in the studio that I always
request it to be turned down because too much for me.

Speaker 2 (01:56:06):
I see you're tenure for a while, you were president
of Columbia records. Why did you decide to take a
desk job and why, I mean, how how was the
experience for that that that tenure as president of Columbia.

Speaker 3 (01:56:22):
Uh, it was not a desk job, which is why
I entertained. And my thought was the thing that I
do on records has has very little to do with music.
It's like my style of production. It would it would

(01:56:43):
work regardless of whether it was music. It's like a
way to look at things. It's a recontextualization of what
we're working on and solving problems. I happened to do
it mostly in music because that's just how it ended
up upright, But the idea was to apply the same

(01:57:04):
like what would it be like to produce a record company?

Speaker 1 (01:57:08):
Wow?

Speaker 3 (01:57:10):
And there were other people to do the desk work,
and this was to be more of a helping curate
the best artists, helping the artists make the best records
that they can. Basically the same thing that I do,
except on a bigger scale. And at the time we

(01:57:30):
by the time right till the end there, Columbia Records
went from sort of a not great roster to maybe
the best roster in the business at that moment in time.
The corporate politics of it were not something that suited
who I am, and I didn't engage. So basically it'd

(01:57:55):
be like if you're running for a off for office
and you're fighting, You're in a debate with someone who's
screaming at you and lying and cursing. I'm not doing that.
So ultimately the situation worked in a way where it
wasn't really good. It could have been great, and it

(01:58:17):
creatively was great, but had the politics not come into it,
I think would still be doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:58:24):
And will you ever establish a label? Well, I don't
know there's a need to establish a label in twenty twenty.
Well whatever the twenty twenty version of starting a deaf
Jam or a Death American or Colombia, will you ever
dive in that pool again? Are you fine with the

(01:58:45):
zone that you're in right now?

Speaker 3 (01:58:47):
If there are any acts that I want to work
with which are few and far between, that I want
to sign, then I have a relationship with Universal where
I can sign an act and it'll be on American
and it'll come out and I don't have to have
a staff. It's like they do the record company part
and I could be the creative partner, and that feels

(01:59:07):
about right. I mean, if there was a reason to
reinvent the label or help them get better, I'd be
open to discussing. It's like I like making I like
the challenge of making something good, whatever it is, like
figuring out how do we make this better?

Speaker 1 (01:59:26):
I always wanted to ask you about sir mix a
Lot Man, what led you, buddy? Yeah, shout my buddy
Dan Charnis who.

Speaker 3 (01:59:36):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:59:36):
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:59:38):
And he brought up a real We had him on
the show like when we first started, like a couple
of years back, and he brought up a really interesting
thing I never really noticed about you of like, he
noticed you kind of tend to go for kind of
nasally EMCs like ad Rod Mix a Lot, you know
what I mean, They have that kind of similar tone.
So I was scurious to know, like, what how did
you find out about Mix a Lot and what led
to you sign to him?

Speaker 2 (02:00:00):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (02:00:00):
Loved the record Posse on Broadway?

Speaker 1 (02:00:02):
Yes, yes, well it was your record. No, well, no
that I know this. This is all I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (02:00:12):
And I'm so glad you brought this up, Fante, How
did you I never as a Philadelphian, I feel guilty
for not mentioning what your relationship to PSK was And
by the transit of Vaxiom, how did you feel about
the way the entire West Coast sort of ate up

(02:00:33):
that particular style because that was with Sir mix a
lot that was especially with the first n w A record.

Speaker 1 (02:00:40):
Every song was.

Speaker 2 (02:00:46):
Like it was practically the West Coast, Like, were you
at all aware of the blueprint that license to ill
gave to the entire coast?

Speaker 3 (02:00:58):
Not really, I think, probably too close to to see.
I also, you know, I come to realize later that
Brass Monkey, like there was no such thing as Miami
Base before Brass Monkey. So it's like it it led
to a lot of different It had different tentacles that
inspired people in different ways, No, no.

Speaker 1 (02:01:16):
Doubt, man.

Speaker 4 (02:01:17):
So it mixed a lot. How you like pasta on Broadway?
And then how'd you go about it?

Speaker 3 (02:01:21):
And I just reached out to him and said, hey,
if there's ever an opportunity to work together, I would
love to do it, and then ended up working out.
He's like, well, I'm on my own label. I don't
really want to do that now. But and then eventually
he came around, He's like, Yep, I think I'm ready
to do this. Let's do this by Baby American? Was
that on American? Yes?

Speaker 1 (02:01:38):
Oh okay, that was on That was on a mac
Daddy album. Okay, and I and.

Speaker 3 (02:01:42):
I can't remember. I've heard mix a lot say that
I changed the tempo of it drastically in a way
that he loves, but like that I heard it differently
than he heard it. I don't really remember that, but
that I've heard him say.

Speaker 1 (02:01:55):
That, you're saying that you physically slowed it down.

Speaker 3 (02:01:58):
I think I sped it up. They sped it up,
but I'm not sure. I honestly I don't remember it
at all. He would, he would know better than I.

Speaker 1 (02:02:06):
I was gonna say.

Speaker 4 (02:02:07):
Just back on your American stage, there was a record
you signed that was. It really took me by surprise
that you signed them, because it was unlike anything that
you would ever sign or work with before.

Speaker 1 (02:02:17):
Uh, the record the nots were ultimate. I don't know
if you remember American.

Speaker 3 (02:02:23):
Yeah, that was. That was a Dan Charnas signing. That
was a.

Speaker 1 (02:02:29):
Ship and I forgot yep. Of course Bad Lad too.
Is that dance as well?

Speaker 3 (02:02:36):
I think so?

Speaker 1 (02:02:38):
Damn yes, Okay, I totally forgot about this too.

Speaker 4 (02:02:41):
So with your A and RS, you just pretty much
let them kind of do them. Just like if y'all
like it, y'all believe in it, I'll fuck with it, Like,
what was your role.

Speaker 1 (02:02:48):
In it was?

Speaker 3 (02:02:49):
It was a combination. It's like if they were really passionate,
either I had to like it too. Or if they
were really passionate, it's like this is the one. The
whole idea of having more A and R people was
not just find stuff for me. It was like if
someone really was in love with something, then it was
exciting to see what could happen. And it worked out
in the case of the if you like those records

(02:03:09):
that Dan signed, and if you liked the Black Crows
that George signed, then it worked.

Speaker 2 (02:03:13):
I got one more music question before I ask you
my last question, because we could be twelve hours working. Well,
I know that you produced, and I'm a big fan
of the Strokes. I know that you worked on the
New Abnormal. First of all, did that title come up
in very last minute? No, in relation to where we

(02:03:37):
are now, because that sort of a apropos title did not.

Speaker 3 (02:03:42):
It just it was a title that Julian came up
with the pre pre virus, and it's again just sort
of the universe conspiring to make the art right.

Speaker 2 (02:03:59):
I'm assuming that they recorded out in Hawaii with with you.
We recorded in Malibu, Okay, which I think is kind
of different than all the studios that they previously recorded
their music in. So how hard was it to get
the well oiled machine of what the Strokes represented, especially

(02:04:21):
in the early arts.

Speaker 1 (02:04:22):
And I know there was so much pressure on them to.

Speaker 2 (02:04:24):
Be the next big thing in quotes like how much
of that was on their minds making this record because
I can only assume that they took a ten year
hiatus because of the pressure of living up to something
that they couldn't sort of jump over, a hurdle that
they couldn't match or whatever.

Speaker 3 (02:04:45):
Well, I think that the first record they put out
was there considered their like breakthrough. That was the one,
that's the one that sort of lit everything up. And yeah,
the second album, the second album seems like it didn't
change the world, but continued that and then since then
it's been more hit and miss. So I don't think

(02:05:10):
they felt a tremendous I don't I didn't get the
sense that they felt a tremendous amount of pressure. I
think they felt like, let's make another album because that's
what we do, we haven't done it in a while,
and hoping it would be good, you know, it's another
like the Chili Peppers. They had asked me to produce
an album eight or ten years ago, and they sent

(02:05:32):
me demos and I listened to demos and I just
I couldn't hear. I couldn't imagine how this, like, how
to make something that interesting with what they sent like
it didn't. It was just not a good starting point.

Speaker 2 (02:05:46):
And if that's a no from you, is does that
filter to them that oh shit, this might be bad.

Speaker 1 (02:05:54):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (02:05:54):
I just I just said I don't think this is
right for me. I don't I don't see how to
do this. And then on this album they sent me
demos and these were probably the worst quality demos I've
ever gotten from any artist, in that one track might
be a thirty second voice note on the phone, like real,

(02:06:18):
very very basic, like thumbnail sketches, and I listened to
that these and it's like, Oh, this is going to
be great. We got to make this. It's like I
could feel what was there was inspiring. It's like you
could listen to a twenty second clip and go, oh,

(02:06:38):
if there was a song that sounded like this twenty
second clip, I'd listen to that all day. Let's make that.

Speaker 2 (02:06:45):
So is that the beginning of working with you, Like
one has to send the roughest sketch of a song
before you can see the light to see how you
can develop it. Or does everyone do the Kanye thing
where it's damn near complete it and then you just
you can add the finishing touches to it.

Speaker 3 (02:07:05):
There's no rule. There's no rule.

Speaker 2 (02:07:06):
It's like, have you ever built an album from the
ground up? Like okay, songwriting.

Speaker 3 (02:07:13):
Less songwriting sessions, but like with the Chili Peppers, I
would come to rehearsals pretty early on. We would probably
go through they might they might have written one hundred
songs for every album we did, and we would talk
about him and narrow him down, and what was it
about under the Bridge that attracted you? The way that
it happened was just based on the lyric. It was

(02:07:37):
a lyric that I found in Anthony's book of poetry.
And I asked him what song is this and he said,
it's not really chili pepper song. That's more of a
like personal thing, more of a poem. And I said, well,
how would you sing it if you were to sing it?
And he sang it for me. He's like He's said,
it's like it's a ballad, it's not. It's not a
Chili Peppers thing, and and he sang it to me

(02:08:01):
and I say, it's really beautiful. And people like the
Chili Peppers not necessarily because you're a funk band with
rap lyrics. People like the Chili Peppers because they like
the music you four guys make. And if this is
an example of something good that you make, I think

(02:08:22):
I think people will accept that. It's like, that's you
don't have to put such a limitation on what the
band is. It's like, it's about the band, is about
the people in it. What's so great about the Beatles?
If you listen to their early records, in their late records,
they don't sound like the same band. And that's just
in seven years that arc.

Speaker 2 (02:08:40):
Is there an act that you never with the exception
of Bill Withers and I know the stories of you
pursuing them, Is there an act that you would have
liked to have worked with it you never got a
chance to live alive or not alive, or disbanded or
not disbanded.

Speaker 3 (02:08:57):
Well, obviously Beatles or led Zeppelin or any of the like.

Speaker 2 (02:09:01):
Has McCartney ever approached you about producing a record or
fish Bone or you.

Speaker 3 (02:09:07):
Know, yeah, I met with McCartney and talked about making
something has not yet happened, but you never know.

Speaker 1 (02:09:15):
I would be interested to see how that works.

Speaker 6 (02:09:18):
What made you settle down into the podcast world and
was it the allure of doing it with Malcolm Gladwell
and hitlerm or like why do you?

Speaker 5 (02:09:25):
Why is that now another part of your Wait?

Speaker 2 (02:09:29):
Can I give a small preface for this question? So
I did your very first podcast?

Speaker 3 (02:09:34):
Correct?

Speaker 1 (02:09:34):
Was that something like that?

Speaker 3 (02:09:36):
One of the one of the.

Speaker 5 (02:09:37):
Preson is like the pilot?

Speaker 1 (02:09:38):
But yeah, maria'rer in there, Okay.

Speaker 2 (02:09:40):
I literally had no idea what I was walking into
because you know, sometimes my business being just a little
bit yanky. So I was I was on my way
to the studio thinking I was doing a QLs episode
because it was the same studio wherever we interviewed Heather

(02:10:01):
Hunter or that jazz studio that Steve recommended. I got
there and I was like, oh shit, I'm here to
do a QLs episode with Malcolm Gladwell. And then I
was like, wait, where's where's Laiah and everyone at? And
then I was like wait, Rick Rubin you're on this
episode two and I.

Speaker 1 (02:10:18):
Just winged it in.

Speaker 2 (02:10:19):
About twenty minutes into it, I realized, oh, I'm here.

Speaker 1 (02:10:24):
I got to read my emails better. I'm here to
do That's.

Speaker 6 (02:10:27):
The interview you got to prepare for right in me
here like be an interviewed by at least those two.

Speaker 1 (02:10:31):
Sometimes I fly out the seat.

Speaker 2 (02:10:33):
You know, we're just freestyling a podcast show and having
no clue what I'm there for and just getting lucky.
So when I did their episode, I literally went to
that building thinking it's a Malcolm Gladwell episode A Quest
Loove Supreme. And then when I saw Rick Rubin's face

(02:10:53):
on the television thing because he did it by monitor,
I was hella confused.

Speaker 1 (02:10:57):
I was like, wait a minute, what am I doing here?
I had to run in the other room and like
call it, wait, what am I doing? You're doing someone's fun.
I didn't do this, so, but.

Speaker 5 (02:11:08):
Yeah, talk about why you even chose to put that.

Speaker 3 (02:11:10):
Into I was friendly with Malcolm and I loved his podcast,
Revisionist History, and he told me he had an idea
to do a new podcast around music and asked if
I would be interested in being involved. And I thought
I'm a fan of his work. Be fun. It's like, dude,
something with Malcolm I wouldn't have normally. I probably wouldn't

(02:11:34):
have chosen to do a music podcast on my own
at that time, just because I feel like talk about
music most of the time in my normal life. It's
almost like the podcast would be to talk about something
else that I'm interested in. I don't even know what
that would be like. There are a lot of things.
It's hard to say. I never thought about it, but
this was more his invitation made it seem like, Oh,

(02:11:55):
that'd be fun. I love what he does, so maybe
I'll learn something about podcasting doing something with him.

Speaker 6 (02:12:00):
Yeah, it seems like y'all don't ever have to worry
about guests. So I was I was kind of cramming,
and I was listening.

Speaker 1 (02:12:05):
To Andre episode.

Speaker 6 (02:12:06):
I was just about to say, like, yeah, that was
like say, especially.

Speaker 5 (02:12:12):
When y'all talked about like beyond moments.

Speaker 6 (02:12:13):
We were had made a note about that and the
moments that are just beyond, and you were talking about
how just these moments in your life where it's like
if you did not do one thing, these other things
wouldn't happened, Like if you would have stayed in Chicago.

Speaker 5 (02:12:25):
Chicago, right, bab we were listening together.

Speaker 1 (02:12:30):
Yeah, we we have a lot of mutual friends in common.

Speaker 2 (02:12:33):
So just hearing of your evolution, your spiritual evolution, your
physical evolution. You know, you've been definitely kind of a
life goal mission for me at least where you are
with your life and everything, like what's your daily routine
and I know like surfings played.

Speaker 1 (02:12:54):
A part of it and all that stuff.

Speaker 3 (02:12:57):
In Kawai. Now, I've been doing a ninety minute walk
every morning on the beach barefoot, a lot of sun
and listening to podcasts that ninety minutes. That's where I
listen to you. If I listen to one of your pieces,
it'll be while I'm walking on the beach. And that's
the very first thing every day, and I get that
out of the way and then I can start focusing

(02:13:18):
on work or whatever else there is to do for
the rest of the day. But I feel like having
that right when I wake up, because if I wait,
if I wait an hour, I won't do it.

Speaker 1 (02:13:30):
Facts, that's me.

Speaker 3 (02:13:33):
And if I wait an hour, not only will I
won't do it, I'll eat.

Speaker 1 (02:13:38):
You do something, Yeah, you do some funds I'll.

Speaker 3 (02:13:40):
Definitely eat because if I'm sitting around and I'm hungry,
if I'm walking for ninety minutes, I'm not thinking about
food because I'm involved in the podcast or book on
tape and I'm walking and enjoying myself and my mind
is completely occupied because I'm very you know, I listen
to things that I'm interested in and learn stuff, and
it's great. I look forward to it. Every day. I

(02:14:01):
feel like I run out of time, you know, Like
I listened in the car on the way I listen
on the beach walk, I listen on the way back,
and then usually I have stuff to do to start
my day and it's like put it. But I have
so much more research to do, I have so many
more things to listen to, and I run out of time.

Speaker 1 (02:14:18):
Yeah. What has quarantine been like for you? Rick?

Speaker 4 (02:14:21):
What is what changes quarantine like? Just kind of how
we're in quarantine now and kind of be in lockdown.
What has that been like for you?

Speaker 3 (02:14:28):
It hasn't changed so much other than the fact that
we're in Kawhi because normally we wouldn't normally be in
Kawhi now, we'd be in Malibu. But because Malibu is
locked down. Kauhi is lockdown too. We were here in
over the holidays and we were going back to start.
I was going back to start new Avitt Brothers album
first week of March, and then I got a call

(02:14:50):
days before saying, hey, stuff's getting sketchy. We're thinking maybe
we should just stay home. And it's like, perfect, I'm
staying here. You guys stay home. Let's you know, let's
wait a minute and figure out what's happening. And that
leads us to today.

Speaker 1 (02:15:07):
How severe is it in Hawaii right now?

Speaker 3 (02:15:09):
As far as there are no cases on the island,
which is unbelievable, there's no There are seven islands of
Kawaii there, you know, half hour flight apart, but this yeah,
this one has none.

Speaker 5 (02:15:23):
And Kawaii has like a lower population.

Speaker 3 (02:15:26):
Yes, it's very few people and they're far apart, and
it's a great place to be on quarantine. Again. We
if we weren't here, I don't think we would have
come here for it, But the fact that we were
here and the opportunity arose seemed like a good choice.
The universe again was smiling on us.

Speaker 2 (02:15:45):
These two are those those dogs I saw you once
with the dogs with the mop.

Speaker 3 (02:15:52):
Heads I have won. His name is Champa. I had
two before him named The current dog's name is Yellow.
The two prior where Champa and Monday. Chump and Monday
passed away at eighteen nineteen years old. And now Champa
is Monday's brother, brother's son. I think so in the family,

(02:16:20):
and he's probably twelve now.

Speaker 1 (02:16:21):
It wasn't a pack of him, I could have sworn.
I seen like a family of them. I had you before,
and now I have one.

Speaker 2 (02:16:27):
I saw one and then the other one. The other
would follow wherever one would go, Okay, I remember that.

Speaker 1 (02:16:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:16:34):
I want to know, man, do you still when you're
working out your ideas? Are you like still making tracks
or does it start on an instrument?

Speaker 1 (02:16:42):
How do you flesh out the ideas that you may have.

Speaker 3 (02:16:45):
It really depends. I don't. I don't do it for
the sake of doing it. So it's more like if
there's a reason to make something, if there's a from
working on a project that needs a piece of music
that needs to start with me, which I'd prefer not
to do. I like. I like elaborating. I like hearing
something and finding pieces that I could make into the
thing that I want to make as opposed to starting

(02:17:07):
from scratch. I have to start from scratch. I can,
but it's not my favorite thing to do. And if
it is, I'll either make a beat on a drum machine,
or I'll start with a sample and then build up
a track around the sample and then either keep the
sample in, remove the sample, mess with the sample.

Speaker 4 (02:17:25):
Yeah, are you using like Ableton or like what software?

Speaker 3 (02:17:29):
We usually do everything in pro Tools, although it's still
you know, just still out of you know, I don't
know any better and I don't know how to run
pro Tools. I don't really I'm not a technical person
at all. I just can say I like it, like this,
let's change this beat.

Speaker 2 (02:17:42):
When you take on a project, do you stay on
that project or are you able to hop from project
to project? Like Okay, I'm gonna work with Chili Peppers
at the studio on Monday and then run to do
the Dixie Chicks next week over there and blah blah blah,
like or are you stay? I do you?

Speaker 1 (02:18:03):
You hire me?

Speaker 2 (02:18:04):
And we If it's over three months, then we're in trouble,
Like how do you schedule.

Speaker 3 (02:18:10):
The first one? Because it's I don't think it's possible
to say, we're going to put three months on hold,
and in that three months, we're going to make the
best album the world has ever heard. I don't. I don't.
I don't believe in that. I don't believe it's possible.
Maybe some people can do it, I don't know. I
don't know how that works. So every project has its

(02:18:31):
own rhythm, and as I said, sometimes it happens very quickly.
Sometimes it takes a long time, and I don't I
try not to do it as much as possible based
on my schedule. It's always about the artist schedule. And
when I say the artist schedule, I don't mean the
artist schedule of when they want to go on vacation.

(02:18:54):
I mean the artist schedule of when the idea is hot,
you know, when the songs are ready. We have to
find a way that, when the moment is right to
make it, that we can make it. And I can
think of very few times in my life where it

(02:19:15):
hasn't worked out where at a time I might have
been making five albums at the same time. Back in
the days when I would have to go from studio
to studio, it might be we're doing overdubs with this
artist and I'm working on just vocals with another artist
on a different album at at the same time. Maybe
I do noon to noon to three with one artist

(02:19:38):
and three to six with another artist that way, or
maybe I'm doing pre production with one and working on
mixing with another, And it could be as many as
four or five or six going on same time. It's
not unusual because some of them could go on for years,
you know, do you I work with engineers and each project.

(02:19:59):
Usually I try to have an engineer dedicated to that
particular project, like a tag team partner. So and also
I like to work like in the old days, I
used to work all night, drive home as the sun
was coming up. Now I'm on an early schedule, so
I like to have the sessions start at like noon
or one, and I like to be done by six.

(02:20:21):
Now that doesn't mean like on the Strokes album which
we just you know, made recently, just came out three
weeks ago or something, I would come from noon to six,
and then I would leave a list, a to do list,
so the band could go on working as late as

(02:20:41):
midnight if they you know, they band could work as
long as they want and have a list of things
to do. In addition to anything that they would want
to try on their own, and then the next morning
I would come in, we would review what happened the
night before, and then we would start on the day's work.
I gotta try it, yeah, And I've also by making
a lot of our albums, I've come to realize when

(02:21:02):
my voice is particularly helpful in the process, and sometimes
it's in pre production, it means a lot. In the
basic track, it means a lot. Getting the vocals, it
means a lot. But many of the other times, during overdubs,
during guitar solos, I usually if I trust the artist,

(02:21:23):
I let them do it, and then I might come in,
Like with Tom Morello, if we're doing on either a
rage record or an Audio Slave record, He'll do solos
on everything, and then I might come and say, you know,
those are all great, and this one's not as good.
We gotta and then maybe redo this, or if there's
ever ones where it's like, let's work on this one
together for some reason, if he can't crack the code

(02:21:45):
on his own, then we'll do it together. But I
don't like to hold an artist's hand. I don't like
to ultimately, if the artist feels like they've done everything themselves.
That's the best feeling for me. I don't want I
don't want it to I don't want the process to
be about me.

Speaker 1 (02:22:06):
Life lessons one and only life lessons.

Speaker 4 (02:22:10):
Rick Rubin, don't make it about you and walk the
first thing in the mornings.

Speaker 5 (02:22:15):
I don't want the process to be.

Speaker 3 (02:22:17):
Ugly for you.

Speaker 2 (02:22:19):
See that's the one thing because you know who downstairs
always says, See, Rick Rubin walks early in the morning,
and you don't do it.

Speaker 1 (02:22:27):
So now I'm gonna have to wake my answer up
at six in the morning.

Speaker 2 (02:22:32):
You wake up, your first thing is just doing because
I'll create a bunch of excuses. I have to get
up at six and walk. All right, thank you, Rick.
I will now reach my goal of two twenty pounds.
I'm gonna walk because Rick said, Because Rick said so.

Speaker 1 (02:22:47):
Anyway, Rick, dude, this is this has been what like
four years in the making.

Speaker 6 (02:22:52):
Yes, exactly, Shout out today, Shout out today.

Speaker 3 (02:22:56):
I have a suggestion quest, which is every day for
the next let's make it three weeks. When you go
on your walk, just send me a message at the
end saying I walked this along today, just a little
check in like, Hey, I did this today.

Speaker 1 (02:23:16):
Accountability, I will do so. Yes, just about accountability.

Speaker 2 (02:23:22):
I'm about accountability, and I'm about integrity, life coach. Yes,
about integrity. Two twenty is right around the bin. I'm
ready for this shit.

Speaker 6 (02:23:31):
Thank you, and send a group text to all of
us and we'll go Yeah, we finished ours too.

Speaker 1 (02:23:35):
You're going to be a sleep all right. So on
behalf of uh Rick Rubin.

Speaker 2 (02:23:41):
Yes on, behalf of Sugar Steve On, pay bill by
Vroon Tigelow and be great incomparable Rick Rubin. Four years
We've been dying for this. My name is Qus Loved.
This is plus Love Supreme. We will see you on
the next around.

Speaker 10 (02:24:02):
Thank you Must Love Supreme.

Speaker 1 (02:24:20):
It's a production iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (02:24:25):
For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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Laiya St. Clair

Questlove

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