Steve Ferrone Pt. 1

For a special Questlove Supreme episode, Questlove interviews one of his heroes, Steve Ferrone. In part 1, Steve talks about growing up in England, his drummer influences, and going from Bloodstone into Average White Band. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
West Love Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio.
Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode Quest of Supreme.
I'm giving me full warning right now essential was going
to be very awkward. I will try not to make
our guest today feel uncomfortable, uh, and straight away from

(00:24):
fan worship and just try to be as professional as
I can. Um. I will say though that, uh, you know,
every journey has to start with a spark, every journey,
So me personally, I will say that, you know, before
directing and producing and developing TV shows and podcast hosting

(00:48):
and movie and TV scoring and late night house band
leading and producing and songwriting for artists and when they
d Jane music education, designing, flatwear, my own sneaker line,
clothes merch, my own drum line, UM, teaching college, whatever
it is, I will say, um that there still has

(01:10):
to be a spark, and that spark starts with a
love of music and more specifically playing music and specifically
the drums. Everyone knows my passion is drumming. UM. In
the nineteen seventy five, while on the road with my
musician parents in Toronto, Canada, on a Saturday, I caught
an episode of My All time favorite television show, Soul

(01:34):
Train and Day. It absolutely piqued my curiosity. You know,
I was already a fan of the average white band
UM and they're scary asked logo, UM, but my four
year old self was transfixed on the one figure on
stage who was neither white nor average. UM sitting behind

(01:58):
a white forty one in fifty seven wouldn't gretch's drum kit.
I kind of made a declaration, mostly to myself, that
what that guy is doing, that's what I want to
do for the rest of my life. Um, And pretty
much from that point forward, any album that adorned that
weird logo of a white woman's asked in the place
of the w uh. We copped those records and I

(02:21):
studied it and kind of molded myself in our guest image.
And what really makes that sentence weird is I think
the only time I really allowed myself uh to morph
into the style of our guests was probably seven years
into my career. I wanted the side project called the
Philadelphia Experiment. I want a song called in It the

(02:42):
Truth and which I kind of immersed myself, uh kind
of what would frowny due moment and look if I'm
talking too much advanced math. Uh, I'm gonna slow down.
Look even on a hip hop level, his drums are everywhere,
nas Is Halftime, Eric be Rock Hims, Microphone, Fien, TLCS,
ain't too proudly big, try called question, check the rhyme

(03:07):
and w ways if they ain't rusting in right gang
Stars gotta get over Grand Nubian word is Bond, Juckle Brothers,
the promo Chill rop g J Rhymes, start Us Music

(03:28):
Sounds Better with You, Kanye West, Through the Wire, Mary J. Blige,
Love is All We Need and Love without a Limit,
pe Rocket Sell Smooth, Take You There, b I G

(03:49):
Is notorious, but not even just the samples, just the
iconic songs. I'm every Woman, Clouds, what You're Gonna do
for Me? All Night Thing, on the Wings of Love,
Tears in Heaven, Love Girl, Earth Song, keep Rising to
the Top, glow Um and name the all the iconic artists.
They're not official until he's the timekeeper, so name him.

(04:10):
Freddy King, Brian Augury, Bloodstone, Bett Miller, Aretha Franklin, Sherlyn,
Paul Simon, Melissa Manchester. I chose he's gonna get awkward.
Stephen Christie McVie, Scurty, Politty, Mick Jagger, Uh, Patty Austin,
George Benson, People, Bryson, Jennifer Holiday, Duran Duran, Algrue, Howard Jones,
Cindy Lauper, Anita Baker, George Harrison, Etta, James Marcus, Miller,

(04:31):
Bryan Ferry, Tracy Chapman, Johnny Cash, Zin Keep, Marley Slash,
Steven Nick's Lean Rhymes, Steve Perry, and of course Tom
Petty and the Heartbreakers. Um, I will say that pretty much.
You know, this guy is my hero, Even before Prince,
before Michael Jackson, I've been dying to have a conversation

(04:53):
with a person that gave me the spark to fall
in love with music. Thank you very much for talking
to me, Steve for Room, all right, that wasn't too awkward, right,
it was just a five minute that was That was
pretty That was pretty cool. There's a little people. I
didn't even know no. When we did the Elvis Costello episode, Uh,

(05:14):
my engineer, Steve, his intro was about twenty four minutes,
So my my initial intro was like seventeen, but I
cut it down to a good five. But was one
of my favorite rap groups so which one was it?
AMG really wow, okay I did I didn't even It's

(05:40):
like Janine they used that, they used them, uh schoolboy
crush for Jane Janine the reprise all right, Wow, you're
you're you're you're highly aware of how you get utilized. Um.
What I'll say that's weird about this moment is the

(06:02):
first time that you and I were supposed to talk
for Quest Left Supreme was on March, which is kind
of officially the day of the world set down because
of COVID. Yeah, you were you were doing you were
doing a residency at a at A thirty Rock sitting
in on the Seth Meyer Show. And the day that

(06:24):
we were supposed to speak, that's when we realized that
we were in a pandemic. So yeah, we we had
to put that on ice. Now what's even weirder is
you know I had been begging and begging and begging
and begging John Mayer and his people, like when you
come to New York, I gotta go to this show,
so you know, to really enjoy the experience, so to speak. Um,

(06:49):
our listeners know that in the pandemic, I started micro docing,
so you know, I was I was in my zone.
I was arrived at Madison Square Garden. I was ready
to really taking the music and enjoy the show. And
the first thing I do when I see Peano Palladino,
he tells me dude, And of course, you know, I

(07:11):
was microdocing. So it sounds like room tested positive. Can
you sit in? And I was like what like? And literally,
I was like, well, let me see the set list
and I was like, wait a minute. I had to
learn fifteen songs and how many minutes? And they're like
forty seven minutes. So literally I was like, oh no.

(07:37):
So you know, it's it's like I didn't get to
talk to you, but I got to play on your
drum set. And what's even weirder is that after two
and a half years of avoiding this dodgeball of a virus,
today I finally tested positive. Sol to the club, right, Yeah,

(07:59):
we're connected and we are connected. Oh my god? You
know what it's It's like having the sniffles, like I
was expecting my taste to go away and all that stuff.
I'm I'm having, Paul Man, I'm staying bed all week,
I'm watching movies. I'm gonna work, you know, I'm working
on the Sliding and Family Stone documentary now, so you
know I'm I'm in fine health. I couldn't be happier

(08:21):
before I forget congratulations on the Oscar. All right, man,
thank you, thank you so much. You work way too
hard for me, work hard, but I worked. I worked fun.
Where are you right now as we speak, I'm a
friend of mine's house in Burbank because my house is
being torn apart by contractors. Okay, we have a lot
in common. I I also purchased a farm about a

(08:46):
year and a half ago, and I'm still it's almost
it's almost a money pit territory. So contractors, you know,
are working on the contact yesterday saying same, don't same.
I got, I got the hours two years ago, and
now you know we're still we're still waiting for it.

(09:08):
I didn't. I just had to freeze it. Um so
I'll work. It was just way too much money to
invest in it, so I gotta wait until maybe October.
So it'll probably three years before I get inside my house.
He'll get done when it's supposed to get done. That's
what I can see, absolutely absolutely right. So you know
I started off with every episode with the first five

(09:29):
basic questions. Uh, number one for for our listening artists,
could you tell us where you were born? I was
born in Brighton in England, in south coast of England,
but now south of London. I will say that probably Brighton,
England ninety four is probably the second best root show
of all time. What did you play? I don't know.

(09:50):
We did a gig with Roy Airs and that's where
we discovered that the engineer of our show is just
as important as the musicians on stage. And we kind
of learned, you know, because the thing is is like,
unlike America, bright And at least has an understanding. I

(10:10):
don't know if it's that a lot of reggae concerts
over there, but they have a deeper understanding of base,
and uh, you know, we realized, like we would just
push the sound limit like the average show. You know,
if you trust the sound company, maybe you're allowed to
do like a hundred two dbs, maybe a hundred eight dbs,
like we were a hundred and forty dbs. We weren't loud,

(10:31):
but we just had a lot of base. And so
at the point where the audience was holding their stomach
like that, you know, they were getting a colonic still dancing, yeah,
but still dancing. We realized, like we have to be
the most offensively loudest band in music, and so you
know we maybe the first three years we were like
everyone's nightmare. But nothing compares to that one night with

(10:54):
Roy Brighton. Like, I know you just celebrated a birthday
T two, Yes, happy belated, thank you. Um So, I
know that you were born in nineteen Now you weren't
born in the States, you know, dealing with Jim Crow
Deep South racism. But you know, I'm certain that it
was alive and well across the world. But what does

(11:16):
it mean to grow up, at least for the first
ten years of your life in Brighton? Like what experiences
did you have? You know, Well, there's a there's a
photographs not around here. I wish I had it with
me in my house. There's a photograph of me at school.
I was like the only black kid in school and
we're watching a Punch and Judy show and guess what,
we were just having fun. It didn't come into the

(11:38):
question that I was a different color. I mean when
I was, when I was little m m okay, until
one day that I was out with my friends and
we were playing. I lived in a row of houses
on a street, and then there was there was this
alleyway led up to this little college, and then there
was this crescent with big houses. And in this cottage

(12:02):
at the top of this little alleyway, there was a
guy that was retired Harley Harley Street surgeon. And so
we used to play up. There was a couple of
trees and we played cowboys and Indians and stuff. And
we got a bit too close to this guy's house,
and he came out with a swordstick and and and
he pulled his swordstick and he said, get out of here,

(12:22):
making all that noise making, and he put he looked
right at me with this point of sciences, and you too,
you black bastard. And I had no idea what it
was that he said, right, I didn't know. I didn't
know well what that meant, you know, but I felt it.
I I burst in the tears and I ran home
and I told my grandmother living with your grandparents, my

(12:45):
grandparents and my mom. Yeah, and my father was in
West Africa, serially owned wow. Okay, okay, but he was
never around. I mean he showed up when I was
nine for a couple of days I was about it.
But my grandmother then told got my grandfather and did
one of those defend my honor? Oh, you went to

(13:05):
the house. He went to the house, and my grandfather
went up there and grabbed this guy and put him
up against the wall and said, don't you ever talk
to my grandson like that again. But uh, the way
that it got explained to me at that point in time,
I think probably I was maybe five or six years old,
a little kid. My mother said to me that, she said,
you know what, there's people out there that think that way,

(13:28):
and uh, and they're to be pitied, which was something
that wasn't desirable as far as I didn't want. I
didn't want to ever be pitied. And so anyway, so that's, um,
that's what that's that's the way I kind of looked
at it. But yes, you absolutely right, there's there's there
was a big difference, the big difference. I believe those

(13:50):
social problems that bruised Black America and and and I
see that I see it, and I and and different
from me because slavery never came into it. Wow, that's
amazing that I can't even imagine a life yes, slavery

(14:11):
didn't know. I think there's a difference in the in
the in the way the things. You know, it's weird. Um.
So in the States, I'm I'm part of a one percent.
That's there's one percent of African Americans that can trace
their family name, their slaveship, and where they came from.
I'm in that lucky for you. Um. I also found

(14:32):
out that l O cool j Is there was two
percent of African Americans that had nothing to do with slavery.
I guess his family settled in a place in Ohio
that just didn't have slavery, and like somehow he was
able to his family was able to avoid any of

(14:55):
that strife, which is, you know, kind of a rare thing. Um.
Can you tell me what your first musical memory was? Oh? Well,
you know what I was told was was that I
used to sit in the high chair and we didn't
have TV back then. We had radio, okay, And I'd

(15:17):
sit in the high chair with my spoon eating and
then some music would come on and I'd start banging
my spoon on the on the on the high chair,
on the table there to just keep in time with
whatever music was on the radio. And that's was when
they they decided that my my grand my grandma, my grandmother,
and my mother decided that I needed to channel that

(15:37):
that ability somewhere. So my grandmother was a big fan
of of of tap dancing. She she loved Fred Astare
and and uh Gene Kelly and Tick tac toe and
those guys. He was she was aware of them, and
so she sent me the tap dancing school when I
was better, as soon as I could walk, about three
years old. Yeah, I was gonna say, um, I just

(16:00):
over that about you maybe a week ago when I
was doing my research, and that's kind of my entry
and two drums. I went to a perform in art
school in the first grade and it was one of
those situations where you go to your drum lesson and
the drums are right there and you're sort of like,
let me add him, let me add them, and they're

(16:21):
like nope, and they point to a practice pad on
the corner and you got running like your room. That
It's like it's almost like I had to practice to
work my way up to the drum set. But even
before I got to the practice pad, um, Yeah, I
had to take tap dance. So yeah, all that boj Angles,

(16:41):
me and my shadow like like I was, I was
a hoofer like you good at it? I was pretty
good at it. That was pretty good at it. I
want medals and stuff? Really can you? Can you still?
Uh now? Or is that something that lane on my

(17:02):
feed anymore? But I could probably, I could probably, I
can do a time step still, okay. Yeah, Like around
around maybe nine, age nine or each ten, I kind
of eased out of that and just became strictly like music. Well,
you know, I have to say my first like in
my moment that you had that you said that you

(17:22):
had with Average White Band, I had when I was
about five years old. My parents used to take me.
They used to take me. We had this, um, I
guess you call it vaudeville or something like that. Vaudeville
that there was a theater called the Hippodrome and the
Beatles played there. Actually, so it's kind of Bingo Hall

(17:43):
now I think it is. But this is one of
those theaters have got sort of neglected and sort of
let go little theater and uh and and they used
to take me there to see these shows and and
you know, usually it was comedians and pantomime at Christmas
and stuff, and they took me there to see this

(18:05):
show and there was a band. There was a band
close harmony group called the Deep River Boys from Brooklyn.
Oh really okay, and they were very very big on
Radio Luxembourg. Was was where you would where people would
go to to listen to something other than the BBC,
because the BBC used to just play classical music, and

(18:28):
it was that they didn't play anything at all, you know.
So you got to Radio Luxembourg and you tune into
Radio Luxembourg and they had a show on there and
and I guess they also was it was also a
show that was that was that was good for like
the American Forces were all over Europe at that point.
They had a basis in France and Germany and and
uh and and so they used to be on the

(18:51):
on the American Forces broadcasting. But they had a regular
show on this on this and they on Radio Luxembourg
and they appeared than the Hippodrome. So my parents took
me down there and they did maybe it was kind
of like gospel music, but I'd never heard anything like that,
and I got really excited and started dancing around in
the in the audience listening to this music is like,

(19:15):
what's this? You know, where is that? When you find
vanilla ice cream? You give a vanilla ice cream to
a baby the first time they have it, They're like,
why didn't you give me this before? You know you
got this baby food? Why where was this vanilla ice cream?
Well that was what what I what I got with
from their music, and they sent their manager. They took
me and they brought me backstage and befriended, befriended me.

(19:37):
They made me deeper with the boys number six, and
that was the time. That was when I found out
that I was black. Oh word, yeah, I had no idea.
I had no idea that I was black until I
went and saw these guys and they took me back
back to my parents, my grandment, My mom and my

(19:58):
grandmother took me back stage to meet them. You know,
they have been invited back. And I looked at these
guys and they were six ft tall, which is for them.
Back then was Gigantic was a giant. And I said, wow,
I wish I could be black. Blank you guys then
we never said black was colored because it was disrespectful.

(20:21):
It was disrespectful to say black but then I wish
I was coloring like you. And this guy Harry Douglas,
who I stayed in touch with for years, he passed
away sometime sometime ago. You maintained a friendship with him, Yes,
all through the years. Yes, just amazing. And uh, the
first Americans that you interacted with, Yes, how weird was

(20:45):
it to hear? Did they have an accent to you?
I didn't even I was just like, I was just
so sweet. They I mean, they that's how they sang,
and they sank, they sad like they were. You know,
we heard it seemed like we sort of heard about America.
I think we had TV by then, so every couple
of TV series that we've seen not much of a
TV little thing like this black white thing. Right. But

(21:07):
but Harry Douglas looked at me, he and he said
to me, says, you know, tonight, I'm gonna cast a spell.
And when you wake up tomorrow morning, you go look
in the mirror and you and you'll be you'll be
colored like we are. To sleep. And I went to sleep,
and then I got up and I went to the
mirror and yes, it walked. Anything more about it? Oh God,

(21:36):
that's a great story. Yeah, do you know what the
first LP or single that you gravitated towards. Well, you know,
I remember I used to I used to listen a

(21:56):
lot to Motown, so Northern It's always a thing then
or was that more of the sixties It was, Yeah,
it was just it was more of a MUDs and rockers.
You know, we had these two factors for warring factors,
and and the rockers used to listen to sort of
Elvis Presley, sort of rock and roll on skiffle music,
and the MUDs used to listen to to the Who,

(22:19):
Motown and Motown and and that. And that was funny
because we all everybody started to play air base, you know,
it went from playing like air guitar or just air drums.
When Motown came out, everybody was so that's what you
gravituate digging on James Jammes. Yeah, But when it came

(22:39):
to like playing an instrument, the drums was like I'd learned,
I'd figured out the mechanics are doing that. But because
playing in a I got it. I actually got a
job when I was twelve in a in a in
a real show. And while I was on the show
in the kids chorus at this summer show tap dancing
and singing with this guy named Max Bygraves. It was

(23:00):
a big star in England. Okay, I looked down into
the orchestra pit and we did this. We said the
single world, all that be able to doing the twists?
You know, let's twist again. We have to be twist
little little kids with this guy. And I looked down
and I saw that how she do have his hands
like that? And so I went upstairs and practice that,

(23:20):
and then I thought, well, then they had a listened
a bit more when I was up there twisted and
said what's he doing with his feet? Wow? Yeah? So
what what? Uh? Well, I'll re ask the question, do
you know what the first single or album that you
purchased with your own money? Because I think it's a
little different than in your house? Sadly? What is it

(23:41):
the first single that I got? A bad one? I'll
share your minds. It was my mother's birthday and I
asked what she wanted for a birthday and she said
she wanted green green grass of home. Who thing is that? Frank?
I think it was a frank Ifield. Oh look there

(24:03):
comes Mary, that's what your mom heading? To the records.
Can I get a copy of that? Yeah, A lot
of people and say like Jackson five or something, But
the real answer is uh, I think the forty five
ever purchased was Bad Blood by Niel Sadaka. And only

(24:24):
only because really I judged I lived in a house
with like over three thousand records because my parents were
musicians and the Rocket Company, which was Elton John's label,
Neil Sadaka's label, I judge records on how good the
logo looked rotating on. So I like the green and

(24:45):
blue hue of m c A Rocket Records, and so
I chose a Bad Blood. So the first time that
you actually sat on a drum set, like who taught
you how to play the drums? Like, what's your what's
your an entry into sitting on a drum set? Well,
I just what happened was was that when I went

(25:05):
to when I was after we've done this TV, this run, this,
this is a show, the summer show. There was a
place called the Regent ball Room in Brighton and that
is not there anymore. There's a Boots Chemists now, but
on Saturday mornings they would have h they'd have it opened.
There would be a disc jockey, and all the people

(25:29):
would take their kids there and drop their kids off there,
and then they go shopping. They go and do their shopping,
they leave their kids. They were safe places on the
beat and the kids would dance and and uh. And
so DJ culture was a thing in the sixties where yeah, yeah,
you put a record on, you hear it over a
PA system. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we had they had two
things that they had a live band and then the

(25:52):
stage would revolve and there would be a disc jockey,
and so they would do they would the band would
take a break, and then this jockey would be out
there and play the records. And we used to like
the the records a lot more than the band, Yeah,
because the band played the old stuff. Really there was
sort of like a ballroom band, you know. The disc
jockey used to play the motown and we used to
love that. Loved it. Yeah wow, okay, yeah, And and

(26:14):
so we were we were there. I used to go
there on a Saturday morning and me and might mean,
you know, a young boys with with the raging hormones
who go up to these young girls and and they
danced with us. You know, we might get a kiss
on the cheek and that was it. It was finished.
You know, that was a lot. But one day Manfred
Man's band where they were playing that night at the

(26:35):
in the in the in the in the ballroom, right,
and they they set up early when we were all
in there, and they played, I guess they did their
sound check and they played for us little kids, and
every and every every little, every little twelve year aldgoing
there went completely crazy about this band, like like they

(26:55):
were the Beatles, screaming. And so I said to my friends,
we're doing that. We're doing it all wrong. We need
we need to be that, we need to be Yeah,
So we put we started playing. We got we just
I got a toy. I had a toy drum kit,
and I at those motor skills. I knew where to
do it. And the only song there was a guy

(27:17):
he had a real guitar, but he had an old
record player that his dad changed into being an amplified Yeah,
and he played and we played saw standing there at
the tea chest with the string and that was a
that's that was the base and that's and that's all
we could play with. So standing there and we did that.

(27:38):
Let me make sure I'm clear on this. You mean
Manfred Man, the actual blinded by the White guys. Yeah, okay,
see I know him from their seventy sets. I didn't
realize that history. Yeah, yeah, yeah, then yeah yeah, And
so we would we would, we would go and play
in the afternoons at friend's house. He couldn't do it
my my grandfather, would you know, he was he was

(27:59):
a milk and then he would go out and start
working at three o'clock in the morning, and he didn't
want to. He hated music all kinds and the only
thing he liked was classical music, and anything young was
just he didn't like anything about young kids or noise.
So we go up to another friend's house and we'd
set up and we play with this little toy drum

(28:20):
kid thing that I had. My grandmother brought me a
snare drum for Christmas, a real one mm hmm. And
and the guy with the guitar because he had a
real instrument. His father, his father on the gas station. Okay.
He used to go and hang out in the music stores,
which is where all the older kids that had bands
used to hang out. Okay, right, so yeah, there's the

(28:42):
there's these big kids. What we call the big kids
because here we are twelve year olds and there's he's
like eighteen year old kids. The sixteen seventeen, eighteen year
old kids had started playing bands, playing making bands and
could play, but we had money add jobs because some
of them would leave score fifteen and they would they

(29:02):
would good bye, save up and buy an instrument and
and make a band. So this kid was there trying
to be in a little twelve year old I got
a real guitar, trying to hang out with these older kids.
And there was a bunch of guys and they had
the way gigs used to be got. There would be
a bulletin board, right, they put a bulletin board in
the music shop. And if you if you wanted a geek,

(29:25):
you go and look at the bulleting and see who
was who was looking for a drummer, who was looking
for a guitarist or of you know, and and and
and they put up this thing, and they were talking
to the proprietor of the store and they were saying
to him and Drumma's got to go and get his
appendix out, and we need we got a gig at
a youth club on Saturday night, and we need to

(29:47):
get if he any dramas coming in there. And my
friend took his life into his hands, talking to like
older kids like that, and said, I know a drama
And they said, well who's that And they said, well,
you know good things. You're a blues band, right the Flames?
They called, yeah, where this guy? He's black? So that
was that was the first. That was the first. They said,

(30:10):
he's he's old? Is he's he's twelve years old? They said, well,
is he any good? And you get young you can play?
He said, okay, having come over and meet us at
this this house and so this kid and with no telephone,
he had to come over to my house. He said,
he there's these big kids and they got a band
and they're looking for a drummer. And I'm like, well,

(30:31):
big kids, because big kids used to beat up kids
like my ses, you know. And he said yeah. So
so I went over there. I took took my life
in my hands, and I walked in there and I
sat down and I played a few songs of them
and and and they said, okay, well you can come
play the youth club with us. He passed the test,
passed the test. Yeah, I knew. I knew songs. You know.

(30:55):
It was for the tap dance and you feel you
like you know, I knew introduction, verse, chorus, bridge, you know,
and and and and how the dynamic the dynamic of
his song. So I could kind of follow that. I
didn't even have to know the song. I could follow it.
There's one time I went to not in all white school,
but um, there's one time I went to. I was

(31:19):
playing a pick up a game of basketball. So naturally,
you know, the white kids thought like, well, we'll take
a mirror because he's black. And yeah, I was in
a sports gamp. I found out they may be captured
to the football team. Yeah, useless, I was useless. That
means you're a real musician. I always say that real

(31:40):
musicians don't know sports. I'm sorry man. Well, one, you're
saying you were twelve, which basically means that this is
sixty two. Yeah. You know, for the United States, the
what we call the British invasion will happen in a
year or a year and a half. What is the Well,
you lived in the British invasion, so I guess it

(32:02):
wasn't a big deal to you. So what is the
effect of white based blues. These teams that are listening
to these blues records and starting rock bands. Like how
how influential was it? It was extremely you know, because
this is what happened. You know, these older kids they

(32:25):
knew somehow, I don't know how, but they knew about
Muddy Waters Sanitary and Brownie McGhee Lighting Hopkins. Oh, they
knew all about that stuff, and that those guys had
a tour and they would come and play the doming Bright. Yeah.
And so Bill Dogge he was my least favorite, you know,

(32:46):
Bill dog It was my least favorite. But now and
listen to him, I gotta wonder why, right, But but
when at that time, I love John Lee Hooker, John
Lee Hooker, just and Sonny Terry Terry and Brownie McGee
I love it and they and so these guys they

(33:08):
come around every year, and the band that I would
disbanded I was playing with, they take me, these eighteen
year old kids would take me to see it. I
mean I would have paid more attention and I had.
I don't know what I was watching, but I got
to see those guys. It was incredible, and that was
that was the start of it for me. I'm currently, uh,

(33:31):
trying to shop there's someone that's written a series based
on a lot of those Chicago Blues legends. Um coming
over to Germany, coming over to the UK, finding a
new audience over there. We're trying to shop that they
knew who they were. I mean, we didn't have computers

(33:51):
and stuff to look these but we we we we
Who the hell is that? Right? Well, it's good because
you know, they couldn't get arrested in the United States,
you know, well, yeah, I mean if they could get
arrested in the United States. I remember seeing that that
that movie about Standing in the Shadows of Motown where
they were absolutely shocked when they arrived in England that

(34:14):
people would say, come and say, who's James Jamison? Which
one used James Jamison? They were like, hell, how do
you know about James Jamison? Which one of us? Which
one used? Benny Benjamin? We knew that all those people
were were you were you developing any heroes? Like who
would you say, is the first drumming hero that you

(34:35):
had in terms of burnout? Okay, yeah, I was gonna say,
I know, I knew you guys covered what is soul
on the seventy seven Benny and Us record. But was
that your idea to cover that song? Yes, because that
was the first time that I ever heard jumps plaid
with syncopation like that. I was we were I was working,

(34:57):
I said, when I was about fourteen years old. I
started didn't go like in some off. I left school
of fifteen, but but uh as we started to go
over and work American bases in France, and I remember
it was like it was yesterday. I was in the
in the There was a place called the Casern and
it was in Talk in the middle of France, and

(35:17):
we were there playing at the Enlisted Man's Club, and
and we could eat on the base. So we go
to the we'd stay off the base, but we could
go to the base and eat on the base and
go to the camp. And there was a we we
sort of went and sat down near the jukebox so
we could hear the music that was on there. Couldn't
afford to buy anything. And then and this, uh, this

(35:39):
black g I in his fatigues, the green fatigues that
they used to wear. He sort of saunted over there,
sort of skinny that I remember seeing him do it.
And he popped in whatever it was called a dime
whatever they put in there, and he hit some numbers
and walked away, and I heard chatted out him to
do what what? What was I heard? So? I heard?

(36:04):
I heard Charlie Watts. I never heard drums played like that?
Where did that come from? So I went over and
I atle what what what records? Like? Oh? Thenn e king?
What is so? So how do you know who's playing drums?
Because I don't know if album credits are even a thing.

(36:25):
Like when I was you know, Purdy did a session
for my dad in like seventy four, so that's how
I got to meet him. But how do you know
who is what? And well, I don't know. I found
out that it was Purdy, but maybe it got the
album or something or asked around and somebody somebody else knew.

(36:45):
I don't nobody couldn't look it up on a computer.
I don't remember having an album with that with any
information on it. But but somebody told me, oh, that's
burnout Purdy. Okay, well you mentioned sort of dropping out
at Fifth Team. When you do that in your mind,
is it like okay, do or die? I have to

(37:07):
be a musician and how does your family feel about
this decision? It was it was revenge, you know, his
class system in England. Yeah, I wasn't supposed to be
anything more than maybe a bus driver or plumber. I wasn't.
I wasn't gonna. I wasn't gonna stay an extra year
at school and become a banker or like a working
a bank clerk or civil servant or something like that.

(37:30):
I was. It kind of started. I mean I sort
of stayed in. We had forms, ABC D forms. I
was in the A form. I was kind of in.
I could horver in the middle of the A form.
I wasn't done, Okay. I decided that I wanted to
play drums, and especially you know since now Ringo Star

(37:51):
have become a huge star, right Charlie, What these were
like normal guys? They want upper cross, upper cart, upper class,
upper crush or anything. He's like they were like us, Okay,
Keith Moon, I used to, you know, play my band
used to open for the Hoop and they played him
with him Brighton in the Little Conny Little Club. Yeah.

(38:12):
Was he destroying his kick back then or we were
not in the beginning, but then he started to once
he started once they started to give him equipment, and
there was the whole story behind never but I used
to go, I take pieces of it for spares for
my guy had an Olympic drum kit, a little Olympic
which is a start, wasn't It wasn't a gigster. Gigster
was was the was it was? It was the really cheap,

(38:35):
horrible thing, right, And then he had Olympic, which was intermediate,
and then premiere. Right, but I had this Olympic thing,
and and the Premiere stuff would like different lugs and
stuff would fit on there. You know. So if I
had stuff that broke, I could take that. And Keith
Moon would take a sledgehammer to his drum kit and

(38:55):
just smash it into matchwood. No, and let's say to
the road he can I have take it? Really, Pete
Townshend destroyed the guitar on the Tonight Show and they
let me have it. So it was like it was
like a ukulele. But still you know, it's like a guitar.

(39:16):
But like I'm saying that this was Piers that were
that we're doing it. So when they started to ask
me when I was like fourteen years you know, what,
what do you want to do when you leave school.
And I said, oh, I want to be a drummer.
I want to I want to play drums. And they
said you can't do that. I said why not and
they said, well, because he's not a real job. So

(39:39):
I said, well, Ringo star does it? No, Charlie Wats
does it? Yeah, but you're not, you know, ringo star.
And then they started to call me ringo and I
used to. I used to. I used to play football.
I was like, I said, they may be captain, but
it wasn't any good at the captain used. I used
to box at school. I was pretty good boxing. Okay,
wait you were, but there was boxing riculum and yeah,

(40:01):
oh yeah yeah until one kid got killed and then
they stopped it. There was a couple of but but
but they they we had boxing at school and I
was always alway at that and I used to do
that for the school. And I used to run track
at school. But but when they started to mock me
about what I wanted to do about music, then I

(40:22):
went on strike and I said, right, that's it. I'm
gonna play music. I'm not gonna do this anymore. And
I rebelled, complete rebellion. I'd go into go into exams
and I'd sit there and they'd say, you've got five
minutes to just read the stuff through. I'd sit there
and then they ring the bell and say okay, start
start working and put up my hand and say can't
do it? Wow, And I said, I can't do it.

(40:44):
It's too difficult, you can't do it. We'll try. I
don't want to, and they wouldn't want to argue with me,
so I just say, okay, get out and I'd leave.
I go play drums. What was what was considered making
a good living as a musician, at least at that

(41:04):
point in your life, with nine pounds a week with
a bit of fortune. You know, when I when I
left and Let's school and got a job, I was
learning like four pounds a week. Four pounds went a
lot further than it does now. But but oh because
place it, Yes, but it was still very little, very

(41:24):
little money. Give it, give it about one pound fifty
to my mom for rent, and really, yeah, okay, that
was That's how I was brought up. Eventually, I know
in your mind, is it is the goal to make
it in America? Is the goal to get on the radio.

(41:46):
Is the goal to play a large theater, like what's
the first step? And you making it? Never really had
any particular ambition at all and any anything excepts to
play to play mu they can make a living at it.
I mean, I mean, I mean I did the starving

(42:06):
musician bit in London, you know, and with a couple
of guys. We lived in a one bedroom, one bedroom
apart with an apartment room right and with starving musicians.
And there's some people who live it was a charity
of people don't hang out and get picked up for
the old gig here and there. Okay, the object, I

(42:28):
think the object really was just just to get to
a place where you could afford to pay your rent
and get a place to live. And no, not even you.
I didn't have any any ambition as well as like
private jets or right here now yeah yeah what what

(42:48):
what is rent a month in Okay, let's say like
you're now eighteen in what is rent a month in
the UK? Oh? Maybe two three pounds a week? Maybe? Okay?
Yeah you make that one. Um. So when the sort

(43:10):
of psychedelic movement eases in or at least like by
post nineteen sixty six, like when the Beatles start experimenting,
when Hendricks is starting to come over to make a mark.
Is this affecting you at all in your musicianship? Absolutely?
I mean yeah, I mean it was wonder It was
one of the sixties. Was a wonderful time, you know,

(43:32):
as far as like music fashion. Yeah. So were you
a hippie? No? I was? I was. I was, well,
I you know, I started off when when, like I said,
the boring MUDs, MUDs and rockers, I thought, well, you know,
this all started like an Easter Sunday down at the beach,
and I thought, well, it was gonna wine the rockers

(43:54):
they get, you know. So so I sort of put
on some rocket garb whatever as close as I can
to rocket guard, and I went down to the beach
and there were thousands and thousands of moths. So I
went back home and I put on some Levi's and
a white T shirt Chases and then went down there
and became a modern rioty with everybody through it. So
I w in stones and running up down the beach

(44:15):
and beating up people and we could find him. Oh god. Um,
So you know, from what I know it is was
the American group Bloodstone. Your first experience in the United
States or was that? Was there a group before in
the United States? I mean, I've done the freddie King album.
I've worked on the freddie King album. But okay, what

(44:37):
was that like playing with him? Oh? It's incredible. He
was incredible. And the producer was a guy named Mike Vernon,
which guy named Mike Vernon and Mike had come down
to see this I started. I come back to England
from being living in Europe and went to music school.
What school, uh is the Niece Conservatory of Music? Are

(45:02):
you niece? Yeah? It was a guy named Jack Ry
who was the percussion percussion teacher and he I was
too old actually to get into the school as a student,
so he got me in as a teacher because I
could play, so he had me teach the kids. And
because I was teaching the kids how to play modern
drums because all they taught was classical music. Did that

(45:26):
was about it? So you can read music? By the
time I left, I could, yeah, minimally, not not like
the guys. I mean there was guys that have been
since they were tiny, had had learned to play their
instruments to really music and that. But these guys they
couldn't play modern drums. I could, so I had had

(45:47):
to teach them. So when I'm teaching them, I'm writing
them out exercises and they're like, oh no, no, no,
Mr FRONI, this is this is how you write that out.
And so I was learning. I was teaching as I
was teaching. Okay, I did three years of that and
it was wonderful, It was really wonderful. But but when
I came when I came back, I started to play
with this band, Gonzalez. They were a bunch of studio

(46:11):
musicians that would that would play in the clubs at night.
And the way you got into that band was you
wait for whoever was playing your instrument to go out
of town or have a gig that he couldn't a
session that he couldn't make the gig, and then you
would come in there and then you would play. You
would play that gig until you couldn't make it anymore.
Then you leave. And then guys like Richard Bailey. So

(46:32):
I'd switched up with like Richard Bailey and that was
that was how that band. And we opened for Average
White Band once. Really yeah, okay, yeah, I was gonna
say at this point were you running into Alan or
or the Glasgow guys. I was really good friends with
Robbie McIntosh. We when when I was when I went

(46:53):
to Italy, when I was like seventeen years old, I
went to Italy and I met Robbie down there and
Alex Idard. Would you know if you know what Alex's
he sang with Santana, He's sang that song I'm winning
with Santana. Really, And Alex and Robbie used to play
in a band called the Senate okay, and they were
there in in in Italy, and I was there. I

(47:15):
was there working with an American guy named Ronnie Jones.
He's still alive, God blessings eighty three years old, eighty
three years old now and he lives he lives in Milan.
Did McIntosh have what you would say a pocket then
or was he just oh yeah? Really he came up
with listening to the same stuff as I did. You know,

(47:37):
It's funny what you know, We we all came up
listening to the same music, even Tom Petty. And when
after spending some time with the Heartbreakers, we start talking
about oh you know this song or that sort of
and I came to find out that Tom and Mike
were listening to the same stuff as I was listening
to as the English Invasion. We were all listening to

(47:58):
the same music, the same thing. Yeah, and so there
was a connection made through the through the music, you know.
And there was a connection made with with with the
guys who average white man because they were up in
Scotland and I was down at that There were way
up there in Scotland. I've been Dundee and run. I'm
down here in the south of England and we're all
listening to Motown and listening to the stacks. Yeah. And

(48:22):
so when we sat down and started to play that music,
we had a way of playing it that was it
would give a note to it, but we didn't copy.
We didn't. It wasn't a it wasn't derivative. No, No,
you could tell what it was, you know, because you
were sort of the drummer whose DNA I studied the most. Um.

(48:46):
I always wanted to know this v the sort of
trick or at least your signature feel, which I kind
of believe maybe Party did it first, the infamous Yeah
that is okay. I was gonna say, you you heard
pretty do that and then that just instantly became part

(49:07):
of your DNA. Absolutely yeah, and then and then and
then the other high hat stuff that the mode. I
got that from Stevie Wonder. It's so funny. Okay, I'm
glad I'm talking to you. Um well, and keep up.
I might be I was gonna say, quote unquote, I

(49:28):
might be quote unquote working on a Stevie Wonder project
as well. And you know, Stevie to me, I don't
know any besides James Gatson and maybe Bonzo. I don't
know another drummer who I define more with the symbol work,
you know, like all music of my mind. Just the

(49:49):
sloppiness of like love having you around and just I
miss that when he started programming drums. Unmiss that so much,
like I love when he stopped me and just all
over the crest. I think it's also the fact that
he would sort of motown style overdubbed those. Tom Thomson
over dubbed those. I hat feels that it sounds super

(50:11):
intense because you know, it just sounds like he's playing
it within an inch of his life. Oh, it's wonderful.
This is that's wonderful stuff. What was the first American
city that you arrived in in New York, And what
was your first impression of American? Wow? I remember I
remember landing. I remember landing at the airport and I

(50:35):
had my drums, my drum kit on a on a
on a cor right, and I don't think I don't
think I had a work from it. What and and
and I came through and this this guy, this customs guy,
looked and he said, what are you doing? I said, no,
we just hear like a vacation. And he did, okay,
he said, your first time here visiting? I don't know

(50:55):
always because I had an English because back then he
was kind of unique for a black guy to speak
with an R saccent, you know. And he said and
he and he said and he said to me said
does He said, have you got any drugs? And I
said no, I'm'm good. I'm going any drugs this time?
He said, there's plenty through that door. Welcome to New York.
Really And that was that. And that was that Sixth Avenue.

(51:18):
We wrote We're riding up six Avenue and I remember, wow,
just looking out in amazing. Yeah, when was when is
the era of back line? Like were you expected to
provide your own gear, your own drums. Are you setting

(51:40):
up your own gear? Was there a ROADI back in
the day, or were you setting up your own stuff? Well,
there were a couple of roads, but they would they
would help, but you know, we all have to really
sort of take your own stuff. Okay, I've heard many
accounts of how Robbie passed away and how you got

(52:02):
into the group, but I've never heard an official version
from an official band member. How did Robbie pass away?
And how did you get the gig? For the average
white man? Well, you know what were you know, we're friends.
I was supposed to go to that party. I was
supposed to meet him with that party. But I was,
I was, I was. I was doing the film, doing
the film with You're in that movie. No, It's like,

(52:24):
well I might be in them, but I did to
move music for it. So did it ever come out? Yes, Yes,
I think I have it. I think I have found it.
Oh my god, Okay, yeah there Trainwood. Yes. When they
when they were promoting that album on Soul Train, uh,

(52:44):
Don Cornelius showed like a minute of the clip where
they're riding in a train and they're in the bunkers
and doing show tunes and whatnot. And so is it funny?
I mean I had to go there and be on
set with them, and then and then we go we
do it cool music and so you're all over that record. Yeah, wow,

(53:05):
that's not you natural money money is but no, it's
not been a matterer, but but money and money badass.
Some of the actually said it to me. That's why
I started looking for it. I forgot all about it. Wow,
we did that. All the best things in life for you,
I get it. So so I was doing I was
doing that, and and they were playing that. They were

(53:26):
doing a run at the trouper door and Robbie calling
me up and he said, come on, man, come and
gont be a party on. You know, it was Sunday
night or something. I said, I gotta work. If I can,
I'll be there. And and and as uh fate would
have it, I didn't. I didn't go. And and and
the next morning I woke up and my my my

(53:47):
drum tape. Then guy that was working for me g
named Terry Merchant. Mhm, he said, Steve. Robbie staid no,
and I said, what did your Because Robbie Robbie and
I used to go out drinking together. Robbie was the
hell of a drinker. And he said, no, no, no,
he's dead. You know, he don't over those. Robbie wasn't

(54:11):
so much of a drug taker. I could say there
wasn't so much of a drug. He was more of
a drinker, right, But Robbie, this is this was the
thing was Robbie. Robbie could drink. I'd seen Robbie drink
bottle of vodka and then he just switched the scotch right,
and I get sick. But I never saw Robbie throw up,

(54:32):
never saw him he would pass out right, you know.
And and from from my understanding, because I wasn't there
for a lot of what when when the whole just
there for the aftermath was that he was at this
party and everybody did did this. Some some guy was saying,
he's he's some cocaine, right, And so Robbie wouldn't do

(54:55):
anything small. He was not that sort of a person either.
He went bigger. Yeah, when he he went, and he
went he went bigger, and and everybody everybody else that
did it got sick. And Robbie went home, went to
sleep and it stayed in his system. It was it
was heroin and it was cut with strychnine and it
killed him. Jesus Christ, is that simple, you know? You know,

(55:19):
I mean we we talked a lot about, you know,
accidental drive overdoses, you know, sometimes the house I'm staying
at the moment. Those there was three guys that died
of fentinel overdoses and one of those, one of those
guys was his was his nephew, right, and uh, and accidental.
I don't think anybody goes does any of that stuff

(55:41):
to die, you know. I mean, if they want to
do that, they say, I'm I write a suicide note
this you did this to me, and then they just
do an enormous and they're dying. And I think there
was recreation. I don't think that this guy even had
a problem. And I think it was just three buddies
that decided to go and mess around. Get let's let's
try that stuff and see what it does. And unfortunately, yeah, killer.

(56:07):
It wasn't like that in the sixties, I will tell
you that right now. But I don't think anything any
of the drugs nowadays, so that they were in the
sixties and seventies and it's a it's a different animal. So,
you know, Robbie, it was a tragic a tragic accident.
It did. It was a lot of pains, but it's
probably still being felt felt today. You know. I hadn't

(56:30):
spoken to his widowing over twenty years, and she called
me last week. Yeah, he did, and and and and
she she was telling me that she she just just
now has come to terms with the fact to be
able to just say, you know, it's what. It was
not much point running around feeling resentment and years of

(56:53):
running around feeling resentment and just make yourself that broke
her heart for all those years, four and five years
and just she remarried. But yeah, still painful. Yeah, you know,
Robbie was a great guy, a great drama and a
great guy. How how long does time go by before
you're getting the phone call to join the average white band?

(57:16):
And before they call you, are they trying to at
least maintain the status of the name of the group
and find a white guy that's funky? No, Well, I'd
tell you what happened was was this was that was
that when when I found out about Robbie being being dead,
I went and I called, I got hold of Hamish
and I went over to the hotel and sat over

(57:39):
the hotel with everybody and we were all drinking because
that's what we did the Scots, and and and I
said to them, listen, you know, Robbie wouldn't want you
guys to stop now. You know you just gotting to
get this airplay with pick up the pieces it's happening
for I don't know how this is all going enough,

(58:02):
but you guys s you know you shouldn't shouldn't stop.
There was talk of maybe we should stop the group.
Well it was it was everybody was sitting around sort
of like it was all over. It's like it's not over,
it's you know. And so I said, if there's anything
I can do, let me know, and and and and

(58:23):
I was under contract to Bloodstone, right, so what what
I would do is Stick super and myself. What would
happen if I couldn't do it? If I was working
with Buds Stun, Sticks would go and play with them. No,
and then Sticks briefly joined the average white Man. They
played no average white Man. So he'd go and play

(58:46):
the geek and then and then if he could, if
he could do it, I do it, and then and
and you know, I go and play with him. They
were auditioning people s I R. There's drummers, oh, black, white,
And it didn't really matter. They were just looking for
a drama, yeah okay with sticks and sticks and I
would go would go to the auditions and we'd sit

(59:09):
there in the sare and then drummer will come in.
They start playing with them, and they say, okay, now
they ain't working, and they would get more and more depressed,
you know, and so either sticks or myself will go
up and we jam with them and they come back
to life again. And then they wheel in another drummer,
and then we'd sit there and watch them, and they
would go there any any drummer of note that tried

(59:29):
the audition for the band that didn't make nobody, nobody
that I knew. But there was a lot of kids
wanting to play there were you know. It was it
was a big audition to go to and so and
so I had to play this gig with them down
at Long Beach, at Long Beach Arena, at the old
Long Beach Arena. And we're down there, we sit there

(59:50):
and get come out. We start to play I remember
this gig there was They're also like kind of states
static audience. They weren't really doing too much. And then
there was this one. I saw this one guy sort
of started to rock, you know, so I sort of
hold hold him only on him and he kind of
spread out from him. And by the end of the show,

(01:00:10):
everybody was like dancing and going crazy and and it was.
It was a great show. And I came off the
stage and this little fellow came walking up to me dapper,
you know, he was really well dressed. And I said,
you know, a little beard. He walked up to me
and he said, You've got to be in the band.
And I said, I'd love to be in the band,

(01:00:30):
but I'm under contract to another band. I can't I
can't do it. And he said, you're out of that band,
and you're in the band, right and then he walked
and he walked off, and Bruce McCaskill was the manager
at the time of the manner. I said, Bruce, who
the hell is that? And he said, oh, that's how
my dirt. I was out of that contract and I

(01:00:54):
was in average White Man just like that. All right,
ladies and Joel Man, I know you dread when you
hear this, But you gotta come back next week for
the next QULS episode of our special one on one
quest Love Supreme. My idol Steve Varne. He's going to
talk about his time with the Average White Band, Duran Duran,

(01:01:16):
Tom Petty, playing with Prince, all this other stuff. Man,
I hope you come back and enjoy. This episode is
one of the probably the most special episodes I've ever done,
where talk to the person that showed me the joys
of music and drumming, especially all right to see all then,
Thank you Wess. Love Supreme is a production of I

(01:01:39):
Heart Radio. Well more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit
the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.