Steve Rifkind Part 1

LOUD Records founder Steve Rifkind sits down with Questlove Supreme. He speaks about growing up in the music industry, being around James Brown and Frankie Crocker, plus his time managing New Edition. In Part 1, the veteran record executive also discusses signing Wu-Tang Clan, Twista, and Tha Alkaholiks, as well as his complex relationship with Tupac Shakur

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Ladies and Gentlemen. Another QLs is upon us. As I've
always stated in previous shows, it is fun talking to
the artists, but oftentimes I find it more fun getting
the four one one the information from a different perspective,
and oftentimes, you know, promotion people and our people CEOs

(00:33):
kind of have a different perspective. And I guess, you know,
maybe I'm secretly a suit more than I am an artist,
So I think I enjoy those episodes better. But even
with the response we get from the podcast, it's often
when we talk to label CEOs that I get the
most feedback. So hopefully, if you're like me, this episode

(00:57):
should be one for the record books and a lot
of you hip hop junkies out there, you're in retreat
when you hear Kats my age speak of okay now
the word of course of the year's renaissance. And you
know this isn't a Queen Bee reference, but when we're
speaking of the renaissance era of hip hop, we're talking
about a specific time period in which I will say

(01:19):
the Renaissance era of hip hop versus the classic era
of hip hop is sort of when the music palette,
as far as sampling is concerned, extended a further reach
past the first layer of sampling, you know, like the
first round was like James Brown, George Clinton, and the
what I call the Wikipedia of crate digging known as

(01:40):
Ultimate Beats and Breaks compilation, shout out to break Bloo,
good friend of the show. But all of a sudden,
you know, all those jazz records and all those boring
albums in your uncle aunt's record collections started to get
utilized in this particular era of hip hop, starting with
kind of in the early nine and extending in the

(02:02):
decade and oftentimes when we talk about the Renaissance period,
usually Illmatic is kind of synonymous with that era. However,
and yes, I will say Illmatic is the pinnacle of
that particular sound. But from a creative standpoint that the
label owned by our guest today was probably one of

(02:26):
the most forward thinking, consistent, envelope pushing hip hop labels
that pretty much led the charge culturally for the directions
of what credible hip hop sounded like in a way
that kind of like def jam was established in the eighties,
I can go I have to write some of the
names down Twist a mad Cap. I could spend an

(02:47):
hour mad Cap alone because I thought, oh, that's a
lane for the roots, the alcoholics of course, the Wu
Tang clan, whoever they are, Selah Duellas Mob Deep, Big
Pun exhibit of my all time favorites. And when we
ever released a project Pat song, I don't know, Project Pat, Delinquent, Habits,

(03:08):
Dead Press, Gangsta Boo, Little Flip, the Executioners, even with
R and B, with Divina LV and Yuvette, Michelle Hey, Yeah,
Adriana Evans, even like well known vets like Pete Rock,
beat Nuts, MP three six, Mafia, Uncle, Luke, fump Aster,
Flex Read Alert. All these, all these greats came to

(03:32):
uh basically the House of Loud, as I say, but
it would be who me had also mentioned that our
guests was very crucial also in the art of what
we call street promotion, which I guess we take it
for granted now seeing snipes on the street and seeing
raps on the vans and seeing stickers everywhere. But a
lot of that revolution was started in the early nineties

(03:55):
and our guests had a very extream impact in developing that.
And not to mention I have to say that it'll
be exciting to talk to kind of a lineage person
in terms of the fact that you know his very father,
you know, the great Jules Rifkin, who owns Spring Records,
which you know, home to Joe Simon and Millie Jackson

(04:16):
and Fat Back. You know, his father released the very
first hip hop single ever, which of course is King
Tim the Third by Fat Back. You know that if
the intro is fifteen minutes long, I pray the show
is nine hours long. We Steve Rifkin. I used to say,

(04:40):
if you guys can see Steve Rifkin's face right now, but.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
He is like, do we need to talk?

Speaker 2 (04:45):
This is the kind of show in which we're just
finding out that we're on YouTube, or at least we
haven't really pumped from the show facked up, so we
should I now say that, ladies and gentlemen, I don't
know if you know this, but you know, since what episode?
What was our first? Tevin camb what was our first?

Speaker 3 (05:01):
It wasn't. No, we go further back than that. Jake,
what was the first?

Speaker 2 (05:04):
Oh jeez, what was it? Maybe Monica Lynch, Jesus Christ. Okay,
So yeah, if you go on YouTube, you can actually
watch these episodes, and I pray that you don't because
we're mot leap Liia's glam. But the rest of us
out of mister Rifkin. How are you?

Speaker 4 (05:21):
I'm great? How are you guys?

Speaker 2 (05:22):
I'm great, I'm excited.

Speaker 4 (05:27):
I gotta tell you a funny story. Wendy Golds team signed.
I know it.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
No, no, don't even I'm gonna ask you about the story.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Don't even sorry, big go big home, all.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
Right, story Storry. I was like, wait, should I ask
Hi about the Windy Gold see story?

Speaker 4 (05:44):
So when he signed you, I mean you guys, and
she signed another artist. You know who that artist was, right, Jiz.
So she calls me, besides that, I had the Stephen
Rifkin Company, which had all the Street team and the
whole street marketing stuff. So she goes, hey, Geffen is
having a conference. Will you come and speak? And I'm

(06:06):
like about what she goes about, you know the marketing.
You know it's really a rock and roll label, and
you know we just signed Jizz and we just signed
Actually I think she said she just signed you guys
that day.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah she did.

Speaker 4 (06:18):
And I'm like, but I needed to like drive a
Peter Vegas I knew Wenday, but I really didn't know
that well. I'm like, do I really want to be
in a car with her for five hours?

Speaker 2 (06:25):
You know?

Speaker 4 (06:27):
But the amazing thing was I didn't even want to
hear Just's album. All I heard you guys had like
a three or four song demo, right, And I kept
it on repeat for five fucking hours. And then so
we get there. My uncle owns at a restaurant. We
have dinner at the restaurant, I go back to my

(06:48):
room and I'm just a man. I was like, this
is some groundbreak and shit, and I must have lost
those days. I must have lost like fifteen hundred dollars.
It was like fifty thousand dollars, you know. I was
just starting out less than five o'clock in the morning,
and I went to the craft table and Just I
don't remember the name of the songs, but it motivated me.

(07:11):
And I ended up winning five thousand dollars and I
thought I won a million dollars all because of the roots.
So thank you.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Oh shit, all right, Steve Rifkin, Wait, I see I
was going to ask you, all right, so.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
You would have signed them? Then, I'm sorry. I'm just
going to ask the FANSI no.

Speaker 4 (07:28):
No, no signed them. I didn't had the opportunity to sign.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
You had the opportunity, right because they were already signed.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
I will say that Loud was one of the three
labels that we didn't go to only because literally, I
mean I've said the story before. You know, the Roots
were going to sign to Mercury, to PolyGram, and we
were like super excited. Oh man, Black Sheep's going to
be our label mates Da Da Da Da Da. And

(07:55):
they gave us the contract and three of the names
were misspelled, so the kind was no all and boy
because three names were misspelled, and they were like, send
a new contract with our correct name spelled. And in
that seventy two hour period, Wendy Goldstein literally came in,
swooped down and you know, like we did the audition

(08:17):
for Geffen because we wanted a free dinner. You remember
book binders on yes and real nice. Right by that point,
we you know, we were like impressed with like, wow,
they have orange juice and refrigerator. Like that's how impressed
we were with That's the first thing. Like we went
to Wendy Goldsea's office and guess what she had a mirror.

(08:37):
She had orange juice in the refrigerator all you can drink,
and we're like what But literally we were like, all right,
we're gonna do it for the free lobster and steak
and then we'll sign to PolyGram. And just at the table,
we literally were like, all right, let's call her bluff
and just be like, all right, we need two cars,

(08:57):
and we need like three apartments, and we want a
full studio da da da da and a partridge in
a pear tree. And she fucked around and called our
bluffins like okay.

Speaker 3 (09:10):
And death and money.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Suddenly no other label mattered anymore, because like it was like, shit,
she's given us everything we want.

Speaker 4 (09:20):
So who Mercury was going to sign you?

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Ken Yata bell A wow Yo. The anger that he
had for I always wanted to know what happened to
his assistant that messed up that contract, Like he was
near I'm not trying to be hyperbolic, like near suicidal,
but you know, I've talked to Ed Eckstein since that moment.
And let's just say the building was not happy with

(09:46):
losing the roots on a technicality.

Speaker 4 (09:49):
But so my cousin was head of sales and this
is when they had a sales department and they were
right stars. He was head of sales for Mercury, and
I remember him. I didn't know that he was. I mean,
I didn't know that you were supposed to sign with them.
So right, he's my older cousin, and I really looked
up to him. So I was telling him that, you know,
I how to do this. I had to speak in

(10:09):
Vegas to this rock and roll craft, which, like I mean,
I was definitely talking a different language, right, And and
he goes, we were supposed to sign them. He didn't know,
he didn't know exactly what happened, but he knew about
you guys. I said, I said, man, that you guys
fucked up.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
Oh they were angry. They were angry. I want to
skip since we're talking this and this is this is
the thing that I wanted to ask you because you know,
I know that. I mean, basically, the first album and
a half was made extremely like just just unorthodox. We
We did not have a staff whatsoever at Geffen. All

(10:48):
we had was Wendy Goldstein and like seven credit cards,
and so you know, we established trust with them where
they were like here here the credit cards don't you know,
start traveling to Ruber or whatever, like be responsible. We
were super responsible. But essentially we were calling out for
favors from almost every label. You include it, like you

(11:08):
know Steve Riff Gabill handle street promotions and that I
at Deaf Jam, like Jessica and Derek will handle that
at Deaf Jam. Like we were literally moonlighting every label
for do you Want More?

Speaker 3 (11:21):
And the thing was, I didn't even know you could
do that.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
I don't you know. It was just different back then.
But here here's the question I have. So can you
and I want you to explain to me, because this
is what I never got explained to me. At least
the system, Like you remember the periodical. I think that
it was called Hits. It is still a thing. Yeah, okay,

(11:47):
So I knew for us there was there was a
system of you break in college first, and then after
the college then you break to mainstream radio. And the
Roots released their first single the same At least, we
were under the impression that we released the same time
that Biggie released Juicy. Now, this is what I think happened.

(12:10):
What I believed happened was that the buzz for Juicy
was so big that they leaked it a week early,
maybe like two days early. So the initial numbers of
our first single, which I think was like distortion is
static versus Juicy, was like, Oh, we're gonna crush Biggie.

(12:31):
But what I think happened was we had a full week,
seven days of ads on whereas maybe like they decided
to just you know, leak Juicy a day early, so
it was like a week of the roots versus one
day of Biggie, and we were just under the impression

(12:52):
of like, oh shit, man, we're gonna be kings of
the world. Like we were like that whole week. It
was like whatever the equivalent of fight and cigars one
hundred dollars bills and champagne everywhere, only for the next
week to come and suddenly, like Biggi's numbers were like
in the three digits and we were like at thirty eight,

(13:12):
like literally crush. Can you explain the system of how
at least back then? And I'm not going to say
start with protect your neck, because that's just a whole
nother animal, but say, if you're doing rainy days like
a single, that doesn't matter, how do you break that
first to explode and what's the importance of college numbers?

Speaker 4 (13:35):
So for me, I made my living off of college.
So let's go just go back to you for a second. Okay,
Wendy was the only one who understood what I was
working those records. This. I was doing the whole street team, right,
I know, if you guys were so alternative in the
hip hop market, I said, just don't rush this, let

(13:56):
this just marinate and just have the guy that live
on the road, don't worry about you know, don't worry
about anything hapened to just go visitologists and maybe even
some mix shows. And that's it. I mean I never
really even saw you guys. I didn't even see a
video yet, but just sonically what I heard, I was like,
remember like digg Old Planets, Yeah right, I mean it
was that that. I mean that took eighteen months to break.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
Mhm, what we forget this?

Speaker 4 (14:21):
Yeah? Yeah, you're right, so you know and stretch stretch
of Barbido broke down record.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
You're right.

Speaker 4 (14:27):
That was on a new label called Pendulum Records. That
was on by reading Yeah right, So, and I forget
who the head of promotion I think it's his name
was Steve Too, And I just forget who the head
of promotion was. And I was like, you don't have
to worry about radio. Let us just keep this at
college radio. Brian Sampson, who was running the Gavin Report

(14:48):
at College Radio, was flipping over the music and that's
all we needed right this second, and they just wanted
to take it to radio, and then you know, it
was what it was now.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Of course, the second part of that story is like
we were like super depressed and thought like our lives
were over, and you know, but now that thirty years
have passed, it's almost like, you know, this, this tortoise
in the hair journey that we took was worth it all,
you know, to kind of still be here. But for me,
I just never because we weren't in the States, you know,

(15:24):
we were living in Europe, so between like ninety three
and ninety eight, I had zero clue of what the
system was on how to jump in the double Dutch
rope and thrive and survive like that sort of thing.
And you know, because we were asked like can we
do Jack the Rapper, can we do how can I

(15:45):
be down? Like all those things that we hear about,
and we just always felt like Rudolph the Red Dudes,
Like we didn't start meeting hip hop gods, like you know,
we didn't meet Wu Tang until like ninety nine at
that at that great day in Harlem. Shoot, that's the
that was like the first.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
Ever did the convention circuit y'all never did br.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
Like we were living in Europe just like our whole
thing was like, well, you know, we're not going to
be breakout stars in the States, so we better just
like plan our seeds for longevity over here in Europe.
And by things all apart, they were like, Okay, you
guys got to come home and actually promote this record,
not like be there. But anyway, I digress. I do

(16:31):
want to start from the beginning. Steve Rifkin, what was
your very first musical memory?

Speaker 4 (16:36):
My very first musical memory was five years old at
the Apollo Theater watching in Jackson five.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
Wow, do you know what year? This was?

Speaker 4 (16:46):
Sixty seven? Sixty eight.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
Six. This is the third story we've had of people
that have been at that particular Jackson's concert.

Speaker 4 (16:58):
And No, I was with my dad. I was with
my dad. So my dad managed a DJ called Tommy
Small and Tommy had a club puffing home called the
Smallest Paradise.

Speaker 3 (17:12):
Carlem Knights, that's real. I never I'm sorry, I got you.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
Sorry.

Speaker 4 (17:16):
So before Frankie Krackett, Tommy Small's was the most powerful
DJ in urban music or armbu set right, and it
was a station called w w r L and it
was based out of Jersey. I saw the Jack and
five you know, on the Ed Sullivan Show, and then
like two weeks later there at the Apollo and it
was it was my first live show.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
The scene are you at the seat?

Speaker 4 (17:38):
We were on the stage.

Speaker 3 (17:39):
Of course, that's what I didn't want to as soon.

Speaker 2 (17:44):
How old were you when you recognized what your dad did? Man,
I have the feeling that he kind of lured you
into the business early or without knowing, or trained you
without knowing.

Speaker 4 (17:57):
It was my grandfather. I was major league the I
didn't know how to read it right till I was
fourteen fifteen years old, okay. So I was getting in
a lot of trouble, and not that I need you know,
I didn't need to steal because I didn't need the money.
You know. My dad had James Brown, you know, and
he had Joe Simon bat back then. So I was
just doing it to look to get to attention, but
it was really getting to a place where I was

(18:20):
to go to jail or get killed. And like my
grandfather called me down to Florida. We'll all juice go
and he was in the nightclub business, and he said,
he said, he goes, He goes, you gotta get your
shit together. He goes, you're gonna end up dead or
in jail. And he goes, why don't you do what
your cousin Randy did? And then my cousin who worked

(18:43):
at I go, what did he do? Because he goes
to visit radio stations. I'm like, who am I going
to do it for? He goes, I follow. My father
wants nothing to do with me. He goes and my
father was partners with my uncle, and he goes, I'll
deal with it. So like a week later he called
the house. You know, there were no cell phones. This
is nineteen seventy nine, nineteen eighty, and he just pick

(19:06):
me up at the airport at four o'clock. So I
go pick them up at the airport and go where
we're going. I thought I was going back to my
house because now we're going into the city. We could
go see your father and uncle, and they pretty much
sit me down. They said, you're gonna go on the
road for three weeks, and you didn't go visit radio stations.

(19:26):
So I'm eighteen years old, and those three weeks turned
to be close to three years, a little into three
years where I zigzagged all across the country. You know,
I always had ten dollars worth of cordings. There were
no cell phones, there was no GPS. I didn't even
know how to read a map. I would just get
a payphone, put in fifty cents, I called the next station,

(19:47):
how do I get there from here? And I would
write it that long and I wish I still had
the book.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
Really.

Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yeah, so radio promotions.

Speaker 4 (19:56):
Yeah there was. There was There was no mixture. There
wasn't anything at the time. You know.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
It's just so I'm clear now. You know when I
mentioned Spring Records, which is you know, subsidiary of Polydor,
was he was your father promoting all black acts on Polydor?
Like did this also include Mandreil and James Brown as well?
Or just strictly the Spring acts like Millie Jackson, Joe Simon.

Speaker 4 (20:21):
So James, my dad brought PolyGram into the States.

Speaker 2 (20:25):
Oh so he gave James Brown his first offer.

Speaker 4 (20:29):
Yeah, so so what happened was PolyGram. I think the
president's name was Erwin Steinberg. Yes, he goes, he goes,
give us, give us James under the PolyGram logo. But
you'll eat the way it's your label. Were it's still.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
Signed to you. So he would have been on Spring Records.

Speaker 4 (20:51):
He would have, but it was it was like PolyGram's
first urban artist. So, I mean James performed at my
bay Mitza what you know?

Speaker 2 (20:59):
You can't skip that shit?

Speaker 4 (21:04):
Wait?

Speaker 2 (21:04):
Thirteen was what year for you? Where year were you born?

Speaker 4 (21:08):
I was born sixty two February first, nineteen seventy five.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
Ah damn yeah, mustache James out of curiosity?

Speaker 5 (21:24):
Do you know.

Speaker 4 (21:26):
What?

Speaker 2 (21:27):
At least what negotiations were just in terms of him
leaving King. I never knew how he went from King
two PolyGram.

Speaker 4 (21:37):
I was eighty, you know, probably so you know, my
dad was really a special guy, like he really like,
you know, he didn't see color. You know, you mentioned
Jack the rapper earlier, right, you know, so you know Jack,
Jack start off in radio and then he became like
a promotion guy, you know, and Jack was really light skinned,

(21:57):
you know.

Speaker 3 (21:58):
Right, yeah, almost yeah, ass and and and the.

Speaker 4 (22:01):
Whole and the hotels. You know, they wouldn't let black
people sleep in certain hotels. You know, my dad would
bring him into the hotel.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
Wow, did they know he.

Speaker 5 (22:11):
Was black though when he brought the because because Jack
could have went either way, so he just passed.

Speaker 4 (22:15):
And yeah, but but the thing was this, if they did,
you know, there'd be two dead bodies, you know. And
my father you know kept this. You know his guys right,
you know, nobody was allowed to even go near the road.

Speaker 3 (22:27):
Can I ask you, Steve?

Speaker 5 (22:27):
It's fascinating because you said, like, so your dad has
been on this side of when did he start getting
into music in this lane, like in this R and
B lane? Was it your grandfather because you said your
grandfather was also a part of your process.

Speaker 4 (22:40):
So my my grandfather owned the club called the Boulevard.
So you had the Copa which was which was like
the highlight, you know, the major player. But before you
get before you could even get a shot at the Copa,
you had a kick ass at the Boulevard. And the
Boulevard was was in Queens, on Queens Boulevard, you know,
So what happened was you know, my grandfather was somebody

(23:02):
that you didn't want to mess with. You know, his
three best friends were you know, pretty powerful guys.

Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah, I was gonna say, I'm always curious about the
I mean, the only person I know this era that
had muscle that often our guest talks about is Mars
Levy Mars Leave. Yeah, Mars.

Speaker 4 (23:21):
Mars had a lot of muscle. But my grandfather was
extremely close with Mars. But my grandfather would put you
in a headline and said, my two sons have to imagine. Oh,
so Flip Wilson came out of there, Lola came out
of there, that Churels came out of there. I could
call my mom and I could just you know, find
out a whole everybody.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
But yeah, according to you, what year did quote that
level of business? And and the what I what I
dubbed the starbucksification of it. Like I don't know if
you remember the episode of The Sopranos when those guys
saw the like the first Starbucks, and they try to

(24:01):
go inside to shake them down, and then realize like, oh,
this is like a corporate thing, This is not like
just a local mom and pop thing. And this is
when they realized that we just can't shake you down
and do business like on our level, like in your
in your mind and mind. You I know that you
entering hip hop. I don't know how as big as

(24:22):
your label was, you didn't somehow fall into the crossfires
of what was ninety two to ninety eight.

Speaker 4 (24:32):
I mean, they knew they couldn't do anything to me, right,
So you're talking about the East coast, West coast, right,
So I mean we had a passive that office is
in la entity. So we made it clear from the
from the get go, we're staying out of it with
minding our own business and if we're going to get touched,

(24:52):
people going to get touched back.

Speaker 3 (24:54):
Says for all your roster too, not just Usty, but
like that was the roster everybody.

Speaker 4 (24:59):
Well no, well, you know, so like when Park was
my roommate, like I marketed Pak's first record when he
was just signed to Endoscope directly, and he would stay
with me. We would be on the road Thursday through Monday,
and even though he was living up in the Bay,
he would stay with me for those two days because
we had a shipload of work. So you know, when

(25:21):
that whole thing started, I'm like I'm walking into the
House of Blues and he's there, you know, and I
got a ball head, you know, and he smacks me
in the head, but you know, and it's stung, so
I don't know if it's a love pat or a
real smack, right, And he looked and he looks me, Look,
you're not gonna say a load to me. I'm like, man,
I don't know where I stand with you. And he
goes tell those two little lens that I'm just doing

(25:43):
this to keep myself relevant.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
I love this ship somehow, I knew that h somehow ire.

Speaker 4 (25:55):
And we hugged, and you know, like two weeks later
he was gone, oh.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
Shit, all right, where's theick zaging back and forth?

Speaker 5 (26:06):
Wait on that note, I will I do invite everybody
to go to the top two pockets. Have you been
to the exhibit Steve out in La Downtown. It's a
beyond all notebook pages, all everything. I just want to
stay on that note.

Speaker 3 (26:18):
Get to know your man.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yes, I've heard, I've heard a lot about this beautiful
So for you, what do you consider really your your
true entry as far as like both feet on the ground,
this is my entry into the music business. What marks
that for you, like, what year? What project?

Speaker 4 (26:41):
So it was nineteen eighty three maybe and with Jimmy
Spicer laill y'all.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
Shit, that's right. That is on Spring.

Speaker 4 (26:53):
Yeah, it was Russell's first steal and that.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
Wait a minute, is this the connection to is this
how this makes it?

Speaker 4 (27:00):
Cream? No?

Speaker 2 (27:01):
They just did that. He knew it. I'm not.

Speaker 4 (27:04):
I don't know if they knew it. They just I
mean Jet When I heard, I was like, holy shit,
I mean, but who is Jimmy Spice and Fatback had
a record called Spread Love? Yes, and then they had
another one. But actually when you mentioned the second second singles, So,
but there was a record on the album called Just
the Sign of the Future featuring Jerry bloodsoell.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
You mean is this the future?

Speaker 4 (27:27):
Or is this the future? Yeah? It's just the future?

Speaker 2 (27:30):
Wait that was you guys too?

Speaker 4 (27:32):
That was Fatback?

Speaker 2 (27:33):
Yeah, so shit.

Speaker 4 (27:36):
So they wanted me to meet this old promotion guy
but named it David Clark. H and I'm eight, I'm
twenty one years old. That Dave Clark is in his
late sixties and he's like an old school promotion guy,
but one of the best promotion guys ever in the
history of promotion right, and he closed me up and

(27:59):
he says, you know, we're gonna have dinner with It
was a radio station called w HRK, which was in Memphis.
We're going to dinner, and I'm saying to myself, this
guy's sixty six, sixty seven years old, and he wants
me to go to the club with him afterwards, and
I'm like, I'm not going to the club. So I

(28:20):
find the college, so it was University of Memphis, and
I forget who the DJ was at the time, but
he takes me to the club and there is Dave
Clark with for of the most beautiful women. I've got
this shit in my life, and I was like, motherfucker.
But literally that's how I ended up putting the whole

(28:41):
Street team together. I would after going visiting the program
directors and music directors, doing what I have to do.
I started building my own network at just that college radio,
and that was always my foundation in my base.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
I'm sorry, I'm also just visualizing this in my head
and now this is this is totally this is make consense.
All right. Okay, Look, we've had radio people CEOs on
the show before, and you know, I've maybe dipped my
toe in the water with asking these questions. So I'm

(29:14):
going to ask you under the guys that yes, you know,
I'm certain that the statue limitations or the grace period
has passed.

Speaker 4 (29:22):
Now.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
A lot of the times when this question gets deflected,
he's usually like, oh, so long ago, I don't even remember. Okay,
take that Jimmy Spicer record in nineteen eighty three. You
don't even have to specifically mention yourself. But if I
am a promotion guy trying to get that song played

(29:44):
on the radio, work levels of negotiations? Do I just
stoop to to get that played on the radio?

Speaker 4 (29:55):
I mean, it really all depends how good a promotion
guy you really are.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
All right, so how much how much juice? What juice
do you have to use? And again, whatever story, whatever
stories you can tell.

Speaker 4 (30:08):
So I'm going to tell you a story, thank you. Right,
Frankie Crocker a WBLS, Yes, right, right, right, There was
a club.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Called the Garage Paradise.

Speaker 4 (30:18):
Garage Paradise best sound system in New York. Right, Larry
was the DJ. The club opened up at at six
six thirty in the morning.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
Wait, what right?

Speaker 4 (30:29):
I mean people, that's when people would leave whatever club,
and then they would go to the Slumber, you know,
and it was a gay club but with the best
sound system in the world. And Larry was such a
trendset of DJing wise, so I go, I go with
Frankie one night and what that like? Well, frank I've
known Frankie since I was eleven years old. Right when

(30:51):
Frankie came home after the payover scandal, I think my
dad and a few other people mars leaving a few
other people throw him a party at Studio fifty four.
It's he and he goes upstairs to the DJ booth
and he stepped around anywhere between thirty forty five minutes.
So you know, in those days, you know the twelve

(31:11):
inch you know, a record would be ten to fifteen
minutes slong. So whatever Larry played, say between six thirty
and seven o'clock in the morning, Frankie was going to add.
So when I went back to following week, I was like,
he's he I just put two and two together. So
I would call Wendy Goldsen and say, hey, I can

(31:33):
get the Roots record added the BLS because I knew
and I'm looking at the time, and I knew Frankie's
up there, those three records would play, and I used
to and I took a a guest and it worked,
and I was making a shitload of money, and I was,
you know, people saying, how are you doing this? And
then I realized I just kept it to myself. I
didn't tell my father, I didn't tell my uncle, I

(31:55):
didn't tal I didn't even tell Frankie.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
So basically, you're saying Frankie would use Larry Levan as
his human shizam.

Speaker 4 (32:02):
As his right So everybody has like, you know what,
what's that? So Larry was Franky's.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
So did what I'm asking though, is the payola truly
truly stoped? And what was what was like the case
that broke Paola, like to the point where the FEDS
got involved.

Speaker 4 (32:23):
I mean there were a lot of cases. There was
something in the late eighties of the mid eighties on
the pop side, but I never really I'm being honest.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
I'm asking who would be the person that would snitch
and say, hey, like, is it is it a label
that can't get airtime or can't get played? And they're like, well,
obviously they're playing thriller every twelve seconds, So let's call
the FEDS on. It's almost like the DJ drama situation
to me, like who has enough time to like make

(32:53):
a phone call to the top of the pyramid to say, hey,
we got to arrest blah blah blah.

Speaker 4 (32:59):
Because me personally, I think I think it were the
markets that were probably not getting whatever they needed to
get and they were probably riding out on the bigger markets.
But you're right, who has the time? I don't understand
the rat mentality, So it's.

Speaker 5 (33:14):
A mean it's only enough space, but so much based
on a playlist, So yeah, if you take enough five slots,
that's a problem.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
Did you find it, like I know there was a
sort of a seed change in around ninety six, like
once Clear Channel, once a new level of radio comes
in which like they're now pre programming songs way ahead
of time. For you, what was the period in which
your actual DJ, your personality when did they lose their

(33:47):
power like the Frankie Croppers of the world, the Taste Makers.

Speaker 4 (33:51):
Well, Frankie was the program direct so he never he
never really lost his power. Like you said, I think
when the Clear Channels came in the world, when it
when it became when it became corporate, you know you
you were trying to ask earlier. It's like, when did
the Mob leave the music business? Right, or you know whatever.
I think once everything started getting corporate, like when Vegas

(34:12):
came and the major corporation started getting buying the hotels boom,
I think when major corporations started buying the major record companies,
like when General Electric, you know, I think, I get yeah,
you know, so I think that's when all that shit
just got cut to the wayside.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
All right, So in your opinion, what's the better era,
the Mob era of the record business or the corporate
era of the record business.

Speaker 4 (34:42):
To me, the Mob era, of course, it was more
of a creative business.

Speaker 5 (34:45):
But then a Mob era it was it was a
ceiling for people of color to be in executive positions
and to make decisions and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
So it's kind of like right also, but then the
other side of that is a lot of the creative
you know, a guy like Crocker or even you. I mean,
if you decided like you could have been the person
that broke the roots out.

Speaker 3 (35:11):
I know that's true for radio people. It sucked.

Speaker 5 (35:14):
I mean, however, I will say it didn't suck for
mixed DJs up until the odds because although corporate took
over radio, mixed DJs could still do they little wiggle
wiggle wiggle you know.

Speaker 4 (35:25):
Maybe I mean they still like the program directors have
to play this record, so you know, I think they.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
Was but they did, they did.

Speaker 5 (35:34):
I just mean it was it was a middle and
in between of what a MIRR was talking about with corporate. Yes,
but then all of a sudden, mix DJs had to
play certain records that their pds were telling them that
they had to play. But I'm just saying you also
remember if you think about it, and were certain DJs
in Philadelphia, they was getting a couple of dollars for
the mix show.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
Well, I'll say, now it's a little exciting. I mean,
I you know, I don't know how far what fump
Master Flex is doing now, huh, which is you know, like,
to me, this is probably the best thing that I've
seen fump Master Flex dude during his entire tenure, like
at Hot ninety seven, which is basically challenge acts to

(36:18):
you know, provide him with us. Okay, you complain out
and support you. Okay, you got seven days to make
a song and bring it to me, and it's really
at least the buzz of it now, at least from
like my inner circle. Cats are now like it's almost
like they have a reason to live, Like suddenly their

(36:38):
antenna is on high and they're like more excited to
make music now because of the pressure of Flex called
me out. I got to have a song in seven days.
So now, wow, No, it's it's buzzed. I mean even
to the point where you know, we us like, hey
we might get that call. Let's let's start getting our

(36:58):
arsenal ready. Like that's things happening.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
So that's an interesting question for Steve because I was like, man,
it just makes me.

Speaker 5 (37:04):
It really reminds me of like when mixed DJ's like
in every city there was a mixed DJ that was King, right,
I mean kind of in a way right radio mixed DJ.

Speaker 3 (37:12):
So now I'm curious if Funk.

Speaker 5 (37:14):
Glass and Flecks and people like that still have the
same level of like pull influence that they used to.

Speaker 4 (37:22):
Like I think with Flex, I think he's still I
think his voice is still something as you guys were
just saying, you know, if he's on Instagram and he's
challenging really to put out a record, you know, you
know Bus to just put something out the other day,
you know, he challenged Buss to put something out. So
I think it's really just in your DNA, like in

(37:43):
your personality.

Speaker 5 (37:44):
You know.

Speaker 4 (37:45):
Flex you know has always you know been you know,
he's bringing like he you know, he's always reinventing himself.
You know, you got to take your hat off to him.
He's making it, he's keeping himself relevant.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
I hope this this spreads like wildfire, like we complaining
about the state of hip hop, but oftentimes, like we're
not challenged to really you know, bring it because oftentimes
it's just a survival game, you know for a lot
of these acts.

Speaker 4 (38:13):
Now, you're right, but you know what, I challenge the
executives too, to start finding a new route, you know,
and taking chances and get off yours and be outside
and and find something new and exciting that thirty years
from now it's going to have fucking longevity, that it's
still going to be relevant to something. And these executives

(38:33):
today aren't doing that. Preach and that's and and and
and that's and that's coming from the top. I'm not
even blaming them. You know, it's all about a fucking
TikTok and a number. You know, I just remamped my
dad's label and it's like, and you know, my son
is running the labies twenty seventy years old, and I'm like,
his name is Alex. I'm like, Alex. People still got

(38:55):
to touch the fucking street and they got to touch people,
you know, So find the fucking way where you can
merge both, you know, And that's what quality control, that's
what topic, you know. And it's like they still own
the streets, and so the business doesn't really change. Words change,

(39:17):
but people. You know, what made the music business so great.
People took chances. I mean, look like what Russell did,
Joe and Sylvia Robinson. You know, let's go back to
the time of hip hop, right, I mean they all
took chances.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
I know about that initial period in eighty three, but
once hip hop really truly gains momentum, What was your
view on it in terms of like what it was
in the mid eighties to late eighties during that sort
of that first golden era, What was your role in it.

Speaker 4 (40:00):
I was just an independent promotion guy at the time.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
You know the three.

Speaker 4 (40:03):
You know, there's a guy by the name of Hiram
Hicks was from Philly, oh yeah, and we became extremely close.
And you know, he was extremely close to Mike Bivin
from New Addition, and they were coming up to New
York and I was in the I was. I wasn't
on the road at the time. I was up and
I was, I was in New York and he was,

(40:25):
I'm gonna be in towent with Mike from the audition,
and I was like, all right, cool, come by the office.
We came by. I guess they're having issues with their manager.
They wanted to find their manager. Hiram, myself, my dad,
and my uncle. We started my managing the audition. That
was like eighty five eighty six, so.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
For the All for Love period, no I remember now.

Speaker 4 (40:47):
I'll tell you the we got involved with the Once
a Lifetime Grove single.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
Okay, so right after right after Cooling now yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 4 (40:58):
Okay, and then when was the Any Heartbreak album eighty
seven eight eight. So I moved to la in eighty
eight as we're managing New Edition, and I hooked up
with a label called Malicious viol which at Young FC. Yeah,

(41:20):
so that was Mike Ross Rick Ross that day and
then the tone Wold video I think costs like five
hundred hours. Yes, And there was a guy they named
Rick Krim. Yes, just Rick was at MTV and he
would just happen to be just a really good friend
of mine, you know. And MTV was playing just rock shit,

(41:40):
so I never had any business with him. And they
were starting. He called me up and he said, we
was starting this new thing called Joe MTV. This wasn't dead,
this was just weekly because it was with Freddie the fact, right.
I said, Oh, it's funny that you said that, I'm
going to send you a video with this kid and
see if you like it. And it was torn Boat,

(42:01):
you know, and they put it in your for one
week and then it went into whatever the word was,
buzz bin or whatever, and the record just took off.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
All right, So casually just dropping these bombs, can you
pre loud? Can you just name other projects you just
just happened to Forrest gump your way into.

Speaker 4 (42:24):
From eighty seven to until I sold Laps in ninety nine,
you know, the only record I never really worked good.
I mean I pretty much worked everything except for Death ROWT.
But I even did some records for Russell and and
puff puffed at or something, but ship from Dose Effects
to EPMD to K Solo to Q tip and try.

Speaker 3 (42:48):
To well, what's the first street team you did, though, Steve?

Speaker 5 (42:51):
Like?

Speaker 3 (42:51):
What was the first?

Speaker 4 (42:52):
Like the first record was brand newby and slowed Down.

Speaker 5 (42:54):
I just I need you to break down your whole
I'm sorry, Mirror, I don't even break down your whole
mind state of creating street Team because I'm fascinated from
being at a radio station and them then turning their
promo teams into street teams, and every other record company
turn in their think your situation.

Speaker 3 (43:09):
So tell me, please, you have to ask.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
Your question, because what was the year that you consider
street team to actually be like a flag planning moment?
And are you saying that before then?

Speaker 4 (43:22):
So I'm gonna tall I'm going to tell you, okay
for me, okay, when the brand New being Slowdown come out?
All right? So eighty nine, well, no, I would say
eighty nine. I took my last three thousand dollars MM
and I made these pamphlets and I sent it to
all the record companies, and I came and I came

(43:43):
to New York and I stood up meetings with everybody,
and I told them we were going to do. We
weren't going to focus on radio because you said you
came from radio, right, you weren't playing that many rapp words.

Speaker 5 (43:52):
Yes, the people before me, five years before me, Yes,
but I got you ye right, So nine wrap radio.

Speaker 4 (43:58):
Yeah right. So at the at the end of the day,
I came back with one hundred and forty six thousand
dollars run of business, oh pamphlet from the pamphlet, and
it was just and I covered everything, like, you know,
we empowered the mixed show DJ, We empowered the college
radio like and just you know, the barbershops like and

(44:20):
it was just wherever there were a group of people,
we would just go and attack and just you know
where the map, you know. And my philosophy is even
to this day, how many times have you ready to
be you if it's a recular movie, a restaurant whatever
it was that the review is straight garbage, but the
ship was incredible. Shank me down right, really, I mean
bad news, harviews.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
We're still here. Yeah, So you're saying before that, like,
because I can't imagine New York without seeing snipes of
an album coming out or stickers everywhere of all those things.
So between you and Renee, who was the first to really.

Speaker 4 (45:03):
That was early night, you know. But I'm gonna you
know the one when we did I'm gonna get that
Joe a lot of credit. Okay, So when we signed punk,
you drove down the West Side Highway. We must have
spent twenty thousand dollars on posted.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
I mean, You're literally was black and yellows right from the.

Speaker 4 (45:22):
Bridge to fucking Basketball City.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
What can I see those? I can see it?

Speaker 4 (45:27):
That's I mean that that was Joe saying this is
what we got to do, you know, And and that
was just my philosophy. It's like, I didn't grow up
on the street. The street excites me. I mean I
go along alur right, So who am I to say
no to somebody like when they had that type of
passion and.

Speaker 3 (45:46):
The full concept of everybody wearing something similar to Yeah.

Speaker 4 (45:50):
But like my head of my the head of my
street team in New York closed me up one night
fucking ecstatic. He was, I just wrapped the attenor of
the Empire State Building. I'm like, say what, And I'm
like the antenna of the I'm like, first of all,
that's the dumbest thing like, I mean, you know, like
you can. It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard because

(46:12):
you can't fucking see it.

Speaker 5 (46:15):
So on that note, then have you had to bail
people out of jail and stuff? Because sometimes three teens
go hard? I was like this say, and then they
fight each other.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
You violate the post no bills of all, like when
you walk into our office, like behind me exceptions.

Speaker 4 (46:29):
You know, there was like five bells, bonds and a
bunch of criminal attorneys pretty much in every city.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
Wait a minute, it just hit me. It just hit
me the night. If you you older Roots fans can
remember the infamous Old Dirty Bastard moment with the Roots
at uh at Irving Plaza. I believe that Irving Plaza
was one of the first clubs too, and the Roots

(47:02):
not because of us in general or or the fight
between Old Dirty Bastard. What's what's the thing when you
get spray paint and then you lay a like you
lay a grid on the on the ground, and then.

Speaker 4 (47:18):
You spray paint it and then it's just stencil.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
Yeah, I remember that that there was a bunch of
hell on Earth. There was a bunch of mob deep
hell on Earth. Stencils all over Irving Plaza.

Speaker 5 (47:38):
And.

Speaker 4 (47:40):
You know there was also a bunch of Nike swishes too.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
Okay, no, no, I'm not playing.

Speaker 4 (47:50):
You know.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
It was just like there was just like no more wrapping,
like they actually mob deep like so for like two years,
like no hip hop was allowed an IRB implative just
because of the level of Street team. But okay, without
a college degree in terms of knowing the power that

(48:10):
you have with this type of marketing, because you know, essentially,
if you're in a car, you got about two point
nine seconds to just look to your right to see
something and have it stick to your brain. Were you
in terms like doing these snipes and doing this this
sort of level of street promotion, were you also like

(48:36):
designing the snipes, like would you know that with big
pun that yellow and black will stand out?

Speaker 4 (48:41):
And so we had our own art, you know. So
I mean they would be working twenty four seven, like
you know, and they would just until Joe approved whatever
needed to get done. Joe approved it. But you know,
but with the street team, to me, everybody as their
research now you know, and you know, is it doing this,

(49:02):
it's doing that. But whatever the city was in, like
we knew the most popular bus, where the kids were going,
you know, from school to to the to the deli
or you know whatever it was, so that that's the
type of research that that we were doing it. I
didn't care about anything else. It's just where are the kids,

(49:23):
and where are the kids populating? And where the kids
hanging out? You know, And that's and that's really all
I care about. I didn't care about every time we
came with the record, I would say, if we get
these five stations, we'll do three hundred thousand. We get
these fifteen stations, we'll go go. We get twenty five stations,
we'll go planning. If we run the gamut, we're gonna

(49:43):
go multiplan. I didn't give a fuck about that whole thing.
All I can't, you know, I have a corny saying
the streets don't lie. And it could be whatever you
could be on a day or drive franch are one
hundred and twenty fifty, whatever it is. You know, you
just got to find your base and your foundation.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
So so with having this this this well oiled machine
establishing in the early nineties and whatnot, why step into
starting your own label? Why not like turn this into
like the one thing you focus on and making that.

Speaker 4 (50:19):
The So this is a great question. So I think
I'm a multi multi millionaires. I'm doing a few hundred
thousand dollars a year now, and I come back to
New York. I'm living in LA I come back to
New York for my cousin's wedding. And there was a
guy that named a Jerry Ad from the Famous Artists Agency,
and every time I came, every time I came to

(50:39):
New York, he would let me work out of his office.
And he goes, I don't understand.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
He was, what do you mean?

Speaker 4 (50:43):
He goes, why don't you have your own labor? Like,
why the fuck do I want my own label? I'm good,
Like I would work the three o'clock change, go to
basketball courts, playball, go home, shower and eat dinner, go
back to your office and send out my reports. So
you know, as we said earlier, and my family really
doesn't play. So he goes, well, we take this meeting

(51:05):
with Paul Marshall. I'm like, yeah, Paul is my dad's lafer.
So you know, Paul says, I could get you this
tremendous deal with BMG. I'm like, I'm good. I don't
want it right. So by the time I get to
Richardsson's apartment, who is my partner or a lot of
my childhood best friend, my Dad's called and he goes,
I need you to come to the house. I go,
I'm in the city. It's a forty five minute train ride, Like,

(51:26):
who knows what time to train for the country is.
I don't give a fuck, come to the house now.
And he was with you know, some of his people,
and you know, he was ready to beat the shit
out of me. He goes, don't you ever turn down
a fucking record deal? He goes, you know the difference
between a record deal or a label deal and what
you're doing now. I'm like, no, he goes, what you're

(51:48):
doing now, you're only as good as your last record
or your last contract. With owning a record company, you
have true assets, so even when you're not doing something,
it could be making money. And it was probably the
first time that we ever agreed, and like it clicked
into my fucking head. I was like, you know what,
you're right, And I said, you know what, I'm gonna

(52:10):
call Paul in the morning and I'll go see He
didn't believe me. Knowing how fucking crazy I am. So
he called Paul. He says, we'll see you at two o'clock,
and you know, and that's how Loud pretty much started.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
I was just curious your father, since you guys always
wondering how he thought it about hip hop.

Speaker 4 (52:32):
My dad put us first hip hop record. I mean,
but my dad never consider himself. He never considered himself
an an ar guy. He just considered himself a promotion guy.
And you know, and he just truly loved people. And
he didn't see he didn't see color, he didn't see anything.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
You know.

Speaker 4 (52:47):
It's like our house was like United.

Speaker 5 (52:49):
Nations, right, So you guys, it was a nice evolution.
That's what I kind of mean for your family, Like
you were the perfect kind of evolution.

Speaker 4 (52:56):
I mean, Sharpton lives in our house.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
The first act you signed was Twist, correct. Yeah, So
it's always curious to see flagship artists on these big labels,
Like you know, I'm just finding out that Rico Suave
was the first act on the interscope. What was that
about Twister? And actually, for me, I think the first

(53:23):
thing I heard about Twista was like a beef with
treats from naughty by nature, like that's what was it
about Twister that attracted you to him? And said I
can sell this or was it just like it's dope
and let me put it out.

Speaker 4 (53:39):
So the record was called Mister Tongue Twist. And my
staff was losing their mind and they were comparing I
forget who the the guy was a poor righteous.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
Teachers right where I was intelligent, right, and they.

Speaker 4 (53:53):
Were comparing him to and they were comparing him to
that and just it was my first act that I
ever really, you know, I was like, all right, this
could be something that special. So and that was the
first act that I brought to BMG. And we found
it through my We found it through my street team
and was a guy named of Jack Sterling. He was

(54:15):
out of Chicago street rep and he sent it to
a guy name of Faye Dubinet who was doing my
college radio and Mick show. We were stigned to call
Mix Show and he was managed by DJ in Chicago
and GCI by the name of Eric de Witz. I
flew him out. We did a deal and and I
had something to show BMG.

Speaker 2 (54:38):
Let me ask you, why did you choose BMG, because
you know, for me at least. I never considered r
c A as a front runner in urban music, like
the way that Columbia was, or I'm a maybe warner

(54:59):
with with Tommy Boy. But was it the fact that
they had new track record whatsoever and they offered you space.
I didn't.

Speaker 4 (55:07):
I didn't even look at that. I just had so
much confidence to myself. You know, when I first was going,
there was a guy named of Lou Mallam who had
Zoo Entertainment that b b MD financed. It was supposed
to be a new company. Twist was the only thing
that really came out of Zoo, and they shut Zoo down.
So then a guy named Ron Urban, who was a
finance guy who was the CFO and CEO of r

(55:29):
c A. He was in Atlanta visiting this attorney, Joel Katz,
and it was Jack the Rapper, and we came in
and I just took a liking to Rot and he says,
you know, I say it now, He goes, you give
me an inch and I'll give you whatever you need.
So and it was like, how much heavy lifting are
you going to need from us? I'm like, I'm not

(55:50):
going to ged you guys to do a fucking thing.
You know, we already we were already staffed up through
the marketing company, you know, and then we got lucky.
There was somebody who worked at our RCA. He became
my brother pretty much a partner. I me't even Mojo
and you can see it. And Mojo ended up after
a year year and a half at our say, you know,
he's been with me ever since.

Speaker 5 (56:09):
I'm curious what your expectations were or I guess, yeah,
what you told them to expect from this record.

Speaker 4 (56:15):
I didn't want a penny for the What they had
to do is just give me money to make the album.
And I think the album budget was fifty thousand dollars. Okay,
I'll handle all the marketing money, and then once I
get into one hundred thousand, you got to give me
a few hundred thousand dollars.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
At the time, were you trying to figure out how
to position yourself next to a deaf jam, a Tommy
boy a Jive or were you just going to be
so underground you were the abyss.

Speaker 4 (56:44):
I you know, once you really get to know me,
you know, you're running a race. You can't worry what
the next person's doing, Like if you if you look over.
You showed me You've got a trip. Eventually, so Russell
had that jam, jive had jibe.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
You know.

Speaker 4 (56:59):
You know Maran Clyde, I mean Clyde Club had to
be the fast guy in the records. I mean he
took everybody you know when he when he sold. But
I never I never looked at that way because and
I looked at them as allies because they were still
paying me to rook their records.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
And it's never a conflict of interest at all.

Speaker 4 (57:17):
I had to you know, no, I mean, if you
know me, it's like I'm going to be a straight shooter,
Like if you're going to pay me, I'm going to
do the job. And if I can't do your job,
I'm not going to take your money.

Speaker 5 (57:27):
And here's the question that you work in their records too,
do you have an ear now to say to people
to other labels, like, I know I can work this
on college and mix, but commercial.

Speaker 3 (57:39):
This is a more college mixed, you know, Like how
does that work?

Speaker 4 (57:43):
So by this time, pretty much we were on retaining
with every major. I mean I was making more money
with the marketing company than I.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
Was making with the label, right, So they listening to
you so like we would be.

Speaker 4 (57:55):
Part of their staff, you know, and then finally they're saying,
why are we paying you know them so much money.
Some of the retainers you know, got dropped, and people
started putting the departments in place, but they were still
everybody pretty much all came under my umbrella.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
Mm hm.

Speaker 4 (58:11):
So I some you know, so like Fade, who was
one of my first employees. He went over to Scope,
and he actually came with the loud name. So when
Interscope cut the retainer with Medade would still put me
on certain records, you know. So I just had everybody
in place.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
All right, I'm dying to ask you to get in
the Wu Tang territory, but I can't forget what was
it about. And you know, I think it's also notable
to point out that, you know, in the early nineties,
suddenly the regionalism of hip hop is expanding more. You know.

(58:55):
Of course, we saw like the Ghetto Boys and rap
a lot in Houston happened like really go mainstream in
the nineties, and then suddenly like we're realizing that, oh,
California has good MC's and this territory in Atlanta, and
you know, that sort of thing for you though, with
the signing of the Alcoholics and mad Cap, especially mad Cap,

(59:16):
I was one of those people that you know, I
saw like a mad Cap show, and you know, the
mad Cap was like, just listen to that tape. And
I listened to that tape so much like they were
like a mixture of They were kind of the idea
of what I thought, because even in ninety two ninety three,
I didn't know what the roots were gonna be.

Speaker 4 (59:37):
So the reason why you like mad Cap Bunch is
because of Joe the trumpet play right and he was
live right.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
But also I mean, you know, like there were live
elements on that record. Yep. And I you know, again,
we were just starting our first record, and we weren't
in full agreeance on whether or not what we were
in concert should also be the same thing that we're
on in the studio. Actually I was. I was against it.

(01:00:05):
I'm like, we don't want to be a band in
the studio, like let's be a regular rap group. But
I heard the Cap record and I was like, oh,
all right, between that and what the Forest Side was doing,
then I was like, Okay, I see an entry there,
but for me or you at least like, why were

(01:00:25):
they just too early for their time?

Speaker 4 (01:00:27):
I think they were a little bit too early for
their time. And then you know, they had two records
that I thought could have been the first single, the
kit Kable, produced by Broadway, and then right second record,
Proof in the Pudding, which was you know, a lot
of live instruments. I think, of course, you know, the
only one who really had it. And they were from Pasadena.

(01:00:50):
They weren't from South Central. So even though Pasadena was
a huge, I mean a tough fucking area, it still
wasn't South Central and South Center was already branded right,
so easy I had a lock and all that, so,
you know, And and it wasn't gangster music, right, I mean,

(01:01:11):
it was more hippie music. And you know, and I
tell this to Broadway. I haven't spoken to him in
a while, but I tell the Broadway all the time,
but there was a hook in the whole Kule directly
would have been a fucking monster.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
You're right, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:01:27):
But the funny the great thing now is Koch, who
was in the group, you know, was a huge director,
now really yeah, huge movie director, like does these amazing
urban films, you know, and he you know, and he
and he finances him hisself and he just you know,
he runs the board. I mean, it's it's fucking amazing

(01:01:48):
what he's doing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
Well, then let me ask you about the alcoholics, because
you know, that was also an era of which we're
you know, we had our idea of what LA was,
and then groups like the far Side, the alcoholics, groups
like Souls and Mischief, you know up in the Bay
Area and the whole Hiro crew, like we didn't know.

(01:02:10):
It was like an anomaly. Like when we first heard
the alcoholics, were like, wait, they're from California, like this,
how did how did you come across there?

Speaker 4 (01:02:20):
So Fade went to see he went to the studio
to see Mecca and East Swift was was there, and
ship Fade just shows up in my house like at
eleven o'clock at night, like pounding on the fucking dog.
He's like, I just found, you know, the best thing
you know since white bread, you know, and it was

(01:02:41):
just like you got to come to the studio now,
and I'm like, I'm not going. I'm not going to
the studio. I didn't believe it. To me, I didn't
really believe in the studio because I mean, I needed
only bet it happened in studios, so I was like, no, like, untrue,
they in the office in the morning. Oh whatever, And

(01:03:02):
just it was a Friday. It was a Thursday night
when he came pounding on the door and they came
up the original demo. To me, I thought they were
the next CPMD.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
Yeah. Nothing, I I can't even like, I wish I
could just bottle up. Like when you're living in it,
you just take for granted that this sort of brilliance
is just going to be the norm, so you know,
you just you don't take a time out to really
appreciate it. But yeah, nothing will ever be the feeling
of you know, I come from Philly, in which you know,

(01:03:33):
cosmic keev aj Shine just deph like basically our version
of stretching Barbido. At Drexel University would play that whole
album insanely like just on radio, and.

Speaker 4 (01:03:48):
The West Coast loved them. But again, it wasn't NWA,
it wasn't Dre. Stupid's just coming right, so they hadn't
met I mean, Ralph did a lot of their videos.

Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
M wait a minute, Okay, this is this is a
crazy off kilter question, but only because I'm I'm okay, yeah,
I'm working on soul Train right now to get the
Alcoholics mainstream Soul Train play, and Don's like notorious for
not like literally like I think there's I've counted three

(01:04:23):
dance lines to make Room, which is just unheard of
for like a real rap song that potent to get
like almost that level of love. I was like when
when the Alcoholics were like regularly played on Soul Train,

(01:04:46):
which a group of that level should have just been
underground status and maybe some MTV love and that sort
of thing. But no, Doctor Newi's Sarah, Really, how did
you guys pull this off?

Speaker 4 (01:05:00):
We knew the booker and Don truly loved the record. Huh.

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
It's just unheard of? Is unheard of? All right? Right,
I gotta get to it.

Speaker 4 (01:05:09):
So make Room wasn't even though they were from the
West Coast. It was a non threatening record. They didn't
really curse on the record.

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
I know, like so so they were humorous, they were funny,
so and was awesome.

Speaker 5 (01:05:24):
That's what like, can I can I just ask real
quick Steve at this point, are you developing what is
the loud philosophy?

Speaker 3 (01:05:31):
Like because you like you said you ain't deaf, jam
you ain't John. We all know this. We know we
went to loud for certain things, but like in your mind,
what is it?

Speaker 4 (01:05:42):
So I didn't really have an a in our staff yet.
So to me, that cap was self contained. Alcoholics are
self contained, and we had we did okay with them.
Twister wasn't self contained. And you know, even though he
broke you know, we did marketing wise, we did an
amazing job. We had we flew in the guy from

(01:06:03):
the Guinness broke the world records from London and we
had we had him on MTV and behind him he was,
you know, voted the fastest rapper in the world. But really,
you know, it wasn't an amazing album. So I needed
people who could really be self contained.

Speaker 3 (01:06:22):
Right, Okay, Right, that's the common that's the commonality.

Speaker 4 (01:06:27):
And then from that Wu Tang self contained. Okay, my
deep self.

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
Okay, Now let me ask you we're here, knowing what
you know now, knowing what you know now, of the
past thirty years of Wu Tang ology, would you have
struck a different deal with the Riza You still would

(01:06:52):
have just given them their running papers.

Speaker 4 (01:06:55):
I'm going to tell you what why thirty years me
and is still talk two or three times a week.
It matters, right, I will never fight over money. So
by me I was in survival mode. I needed that platque.
I needed to go down right. So when right I
met them on March third, nineteen ninety three, a day

(01:07:16):
after my thirty first birthday, I was with East Swift.
I was with East Spliff from the Alcoholics. We're in
New York. I'm in a guest office in New York
and the receptionist comes. You know, in those days, there's
no security, right, you know, we just pop up at
a record like jam okay, right right, and they said,

(01:07:37):
a Prince Racken is here. I've been trying to chase
him down since the beginning of the year. And he
shows up and it's me. He's sucking. He goes, I
have the guys downstairs.

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
Now.

Speaker 4 (01:07:48):
I don't know if there are three guys, nine guys,
you know, whatever it is. But I'm in your office
as big as the fucking square on my zoom right
a second, right, and he Swift is behind me and
they perform protect You and that live to the record.
Somebody comes barging into the room and says, that's that ship.
I don't know if he was an animals set me

(01:08:09):
up right and and he left. I never saw the
guy again, but the energy in that fucking room was ridiculous.
And Riza said, this is the only way we're going
to do the deal. And I was like, you know what,
I was managing New Addition. Ralph was always threatening to leave,
and the own and the only one where the group

(01:08:33):
to me was always bigger than the BBD solo except
Michael Jackson. But even when Michael Jackson tour, when it
came time to do a Jackson Tour or the Jackson
BIB or whatever they would call that the end, they
still outed Michael's tour.

Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
Wait a damn now, she said that I wanted to ask.
I wanted to ask because even at the Essence Festival
this year, I was like, this might be the rare
case in which Tito is more successful than Michael. How
did that? How did that affect Ralph at least during

(01:09:10):
that time? You know, I know that I don't know
when you left New Addition, but you know you were
there for heartbreaking which when when they came to you
with the idea of like, hey, we're going to do
our side project with Poison, Were you guys like whatever,
I know, No, I was already you're out, Okay, I
got but I was.

Speaker 4 (01:09:31):
There when Mike caubbed me and said, we want to
put Johnny in the group. So you know, got it
wrapped up the leads. We have a lead singer.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
Okay. So it was like that.

Speaker 4 (01:09:41):
But at the end of the day, like I just
always believed the group will still always be bigger than
the whole. And the truth of the matter is he
let me still have matching rights.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
But I just unprecedented. You heard method Man's voice, it
was like, I'll let you go.

Speaker 3 (01:09:56):
So wait.

Speaker 5 (01:09:57):
So then Steve, this was portrayed correctly and the saga
of the wolf then right, because they did this whole
process on this show, on the Hulu show you yeah, Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:10:07):
Albums us cheap, not a lot sixty right, So how
many albums you think I sold between Wu Tang Forever
and thirty six years?

Speaker 3 (01:10:22):
I get it, and Ray, I get it, and you're
not the bad guy. And you're not the bad guy,
like I just remember in the.

Speaker 4 (01:10:30):
Show, and I still had the best soul.

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
I know, but all right, but look but look, but
again again, I'm just saying that this is lightning in
a bottle. You literally have super friends. And yes, I
agree that when when the smoke is cleared, the Cuban
Links is probably I almost feel like I yes, I

(01:10:56):
know that we can't say anything bad about Into the
Wu Tang, but for me, like Cuba Links is the
pinnacle Wu Tang project.

Speaker 4 (01:11:05):
Oh, everybody agrees that should have been this second album.

Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
Part of me wasn't a little bit greedy, like, ah,
let me take Dirty or at least get method Man.

Speaker 4 (01:11:15):
First of all, Dirty was already signed. But but but
but this is this is where my head's at and
this is my thing. I still made money, right because
when Dirty was signed to Electra, I still had the
marketing company. Electra paid me triple what I normally got get,
then paid me triple do what I normally got, right,

(01:11:37):
So I was good And like I said, I'm not
going to fight over money and I'm not greedy, right,
So I did okay, and I feel I won and
it made loud what it was, and it gave me
the reputation that the artist came first. You forget. I
also got arrested fighting for them.

Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
WHOA what happened?

Speaker 3 (01:11:58):
Wait, I'm remember I remember discounts some millions.

Speaker 4 (01:12:01):
So renegotiating raised first album, Cuban Links and Mutang's second
deal and second album. They came in to renegotiate and
I'm supposed to be an RCAA side. But before that
even happened me, his lawyers and my attorney, they came in.
We came in and we're going to we're going to

(01:12:26):
do this together. I haven't gotten paid yet. I'm making
my money through the market company, right, you know. We
we're like a million and a half records. So now
and the business affairs she was a woman is holding
still for twenty thousand dollars, and I'm like, and bring
the pain is blowing the fuck up. And I'm like,

(01:12:48):
just give him the twenty thousand dollars and I'll write
a fucking check. Like I'll figure a way to get
him to twenty thousand dollars. I never hit a woman
in my life to this day, you know. All right,
But she says, go fuck yourself, Steve Kin one in
the thirty six floor conferencey, I take this chair and
I'm ready to throw the chair through that window. That's
going to break the window and it's going to land

(01:13:08):
on somebody on Broadway. I catched the chair. I just
lookate my thumb. I turn around and I throw it
through the glass door in the lobby and they called
the cops. Cops came the rest of me. It was
a Friday. I just found out I was having my
first child three days before that, and damn, that's it

(01:13:33):
was intense, right, I didn't there was no email, so
this was literally I sent them a voicemail. I sent
them a call. I was in Florida for Thanksgiving and
met the man. Just did one hundred and twenty thousand
first week. No, you know, like those numbers were crazy,

(01:13:55):
as like you just fucked yourself, like and Reson wouldn't
sign the deal yet until you know, and I went
off and it just created a war between me and BMG.
But the thing was, Rizzi says, don't worry, we're going
to come back in in February and we're gonna take

(01:14:17):
up at every fuckpenny they had. And they ended up
getting a new CEO and a new president, and we
came in and we put him in a fucking headlock.
It's just that we took him for every fucking penny
they had.

Speaker 6 (01:14:32):
What up Quols Famous is Unpaid Bill, What Paul Is?

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
Part one?

Speaker 4 (01:14:34):
Right Here for Now is.

Speaker 6 (01:14:35):
This episode covers a lot of ground. Come back next
week a part two where Steve Rifton talks about just
how much you wanted to sign Acon, Tommy put hands
on a certain film mogul and It's new venture. We
had fun recording this episode and I hope you're into
it too.

Speaker 1 (01:14:49):
What's Up Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio. For
more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.