WILLOW

While the world may have been introduced to her as Willow Smith, the artist now known as WILLOW is actively transforming into her most authentic self. In a one-on-one, in-studio interview with Questlove, WILLOW describes the growth in her music, the drive in her spirit, and the key parts of the journey along the way. This interview celebrates WILLOW's new album "empathogen" and surrounds it with wisdom about creativity, fame, and perception. 

Photograph by Christian Germoso

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. Okay, this
is not gonna be awkward, is it. Oh well, let
me let our listeners know. This is one of those
rarety one on one sessions. Actually, often in the group
chat say that we should do more one on one
sessions because it allows us to deep dive without having

(00:24):
five people kind of attack you from each angle. I
was fighting to get our questions in. So, of course,
ladies and gentlemen, this is quest Love Supreme. I'm your
host quest Love Shout out to the fam Sugar, Steve Fon,
tigelow On pay Bill Laya. When people often say, you know,
I don't have any regrets in life, no regrets whatsoever,

(00:47):
I might have a slight regret, Oh my goodness, I
would say my slight regret is that it took me
five decades to reach a point of and I'll say
this with air quotes enlightenment and even that's questionable or it's.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Still say musical enlightenment.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
No life enlightenment. Oh okay, And often dream and fantasize,
like what my life would have been had the mind
state I've reached now in my fifth decade of life,
Like what would have happened to me if I had
this power. Well, I've always had the power, but I

(01:27):
just never turned the light on if I had this
at say in my early thirties or even my early forties.
And you know, I dream about like how magical my
life could have been if my self confidence, or my
creative process, or my spiritual grounding all those things were

(01:47):
just the overall philosophy of just dealing with things that
we deal with every day. People pleasing and all those things. Yes,
And that's just me wondering about, like if I were
in my thirties forties, and you know, I'm giving me
honor of talking to a human secretly in my mind,
I say, Pleadian.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, But you know you're of the age I was
when I first gotten this industry. Like when my first
album came out, I was twenty three years old, and
it took me three decades to finally get grounded. Like
my life is just starting now in my early fifties,

(02:37):
and so you know, I'm only wondering, like, what will
your life be like in twenty fifty four when you
are in your fifties?

Speaker 2 (02:47):
Whatay fifty four doesn't even sound real? That sounds like.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
A I'm gonna tell you something. So when I started
in ninety two, and maybe because you know when you're
when you're a twelve year old and Prince releases his
fifth album nineteen ninety nine, and you're twelve, just even
looking at the album covered, nineteen ninety nine seemed like
the future, like it seemed like, you know whatever, I

(03:12):
thought this yeah, like and now you know, I often
joke that now when I think of nineteen ninety nine,
I just think of like the matching denim that Justin
and Britney wore on the MTV Totally Carpet. And so No.
Twenty fifty four is you know, that's when you'll be
in your fifties, and I just wonder, like what that's

(03:32):
going to be like. I'm absolutely gobsmacked at our guest's
rapid growth in songwriting and her singing, her song arrangements,
her musicianship, her abilities to pick the right collaborators, and
most importantly, her willingness to be vulnerable kind of and

(03:55):
on a public stage, which is really, really truly hard.
I think or black people often don't allow emotions or
feelings into their lives because there's often a penalty, or
we say that there's a penalty.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
For it, there has been.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
So whenever I see someone even remotely going there to
do that, because I'm also noticing that if we don't
allow be it dark emotions or light emotions, if we
don't allow that stuff to process, then that's the quickest
way to winding up being an obituary, because you you know,

(04:37):
you died of whatever trying to escape exactly, Yes, And
so I really applaud that so our guest today is
giving me the honor of a conversation and helping her
celebrate the release of her excellent new album and Pathogen,
not to mention your new novel, Black Shield Maiden. What

(04:59):
can I say? I'm talking to Willi Smith Willo, professionally
known as Willow. How are you?

Speaker 2 (05:05):
I'm so good, I'm honored to be here, all right.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
So for me, album releases are like given birth. Yes,
And as a person who's been holding on to his
eighteenth child for ten years now, who you know, Tarika
and I had a conversation of like, okay, we cannot

(05:29):
let an eleventh year go by and not release this record. Yes,
what is the feeling when you let it go into
the public. Talk to me about twenty four hours before.
What's the thoughts in your head?

Speaker 2 (05:43):
The thoughts in my head are, oh, my goodness, I've
been talking myself up this hill and it's gonna come
out and no one's gonna think it's special, and I'm
gonna be sitting there going, oh, shouldn't have trusted myself
that time.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
That's the dark end of it.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Oh see, you thought there's gonna be yet another tree
that falls in the forest that no one just people shrug.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
I was hoping in the depths of my heart that
it wasn't going to be, because I really put my
heart and soul into this and crafted it in a
way that I felt like it deserved a little bit
of recognition even But no, those are the dark thoughts
that go through your mind. But then there's this feeling
of excitement like, oh my goodness, Like what if it
really is as special as I really think it is?

(06:25):
And so those two sides are kind of warring with
one another.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
Yeah, I'm gonna explain to you how I let your
art into my life because it was the most unlikely.
I mean, yes, I've always been aware that you existed. Yeah,
I'm a guy that takes in everything. But I think
when you take it in everything, you don't sit with it,
and so it takes a lot for me to sit

(06:50):
with it past the purchase ate. Yeah, like I'll listen
to each record and not the obligatory like, okay, I'll
give it a thirty second test, thirty second test next,
like I'll sit with an album or so. And there's
some artists that are so amazing that I actually see
their artwork ad okay. So, of course, to give full
context totally, we are speaking let's say a week after

(07:16):
the what I'm calling the the unfortunate sparring rounds of
Drake and Kenchrick Lamar. And of course, you know, hip
hop is one of those things in which you know
it's you know, it's almost like prayer. I two and
more gathered than you know, it's going to be a
conversation about it. And I told a friend of mine,

(07:37):
I said, you know, I love Kendrick's work, but I
see kendricks works so almost so overwhelming that I take
it in like a movie, like I love Raging Bull
by right, Yeah, I've seen Raging Bull like seven times.
I've listened to Thriller probably three hundred thousand times, and

(07:58):
it's almost like with Kendricks them. Yeah, but with Kendrick's work,
he doesn't release the kind of music that like, I'll
just put it on the background and you.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
Know, yeah, no, you gotta listen.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
You gotta look and stare at the speaker. Yeah, And
especially with this latest round of work, like I found
myself on YouTube like slowing the pace down to the
slowest to you know, to to absorb it.

Speaker 3 (08:21):
That's the one thing I love about old school rap.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
You can hear what they're saying.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
Getting old.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
No, No, I feel the same way.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
No, but I feel like your generation is way more
advanced than my generation, as it should be. It's evolution
as it should be.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
I'm tempted to be like advancing, like what ways, because
I would be the one to say that, like you
being like, let me so slow this down so I
can listen to it. Like to me, that feels like,
oh no, we're just getting so fast, fast fast that
the idea like our minds or like chipmunks, you know
what I'm saying, Like we're getting to where it's like, ah,
like what are we even saying?

Speaker 1 (08:58):
I was really shocked at how blatant and direct you
are with your messaging, you know what I mean. Yeah,
Like the second you said the word feelings, I stopped
and I was like, wait, black people never talk about feelings. Yeah,
we have void feelings at all at all costs. Right.
And then when you went to the bridge about I

(09:19):
have big problems and kept repeating it, I.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
Was like, way, I have problems too, Yes.

Speaker 1 (09:23):
Wait is she saying about me?

Speaker 2 (09:25):
Like literally big feelings? Is? I used to call it
an anti pop song, but I legitimately feel like, no,
it's actually a pop song.

Speaker 3 (09:35):
Like it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
So George Clinton once explained the magic of Funkadelic songs
great examples not just need deep where not just knee
deep as like a ten minute song on their album
and which there's about maybe seventeen micro courses totally all courses,
not versus, and it sticks to you and thus it's like, okay,

(09:57):
well this part, well yeah, dale I Soul used that
for me myself, and Snoop used that for this. But
then like just the small messaging, it's almost like you
get to pick which part of the song you like.
So that to me is the smartest way of even
though it might be boxed up in what might seem

(10:19):
like a very complex.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
It's gift wrapped in a very complex wrapping, but it's
simple exactly.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
And that's that's what means. That also the magic of
you're doing something I haven't seen since the days of Prince.
The idea of Prince is that, oh he's just a
really complex musician. No, no, no, no. He made three
tier work slightly. He gave something for the athletes and
the nerds in the back, and he had something that
even five year olds could follow and somewhere in between.

(10:46):
So you do that. So what I want to know
is I have reason to believe that your evolution journey
starts the day and you know disclosure. Yes, I've read
your Dad's been more. I read it twice. Wow. And
so when he talks about the haircut, yeah, and that moment,

(11:06):
my first thing was like wow, Like, what young teenager
has that much?

Speaker 2 (11:11):
I wasn't even a teenager yet.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
Well you you were eleven?

Speaker 3 (11:14):
Yeah, I was like eleven.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
I was like wow, that's serious, Like where a person
has that much conviction to know?

Speaker 2 (11:22):
I just knew in my heart of heart. I was like,
I'm not the wh my hair girl, Like I am
the whit my hair girl, but like I'm not, though,
and I was so deathly afraid, Like in my heart
of heart, I was terrified.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
First of all, what was the process of what look
as a person with his hair?

Speaker 2 (11:39):
Like for me, that's like, no, I feel.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
Like my superpower, but I often wonder like what would
happened if ireword to like is that a new life
for me? Because you know Lenny kravit Is.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
I mean, in the Rastafarian tradition, they say that like
your hair carries like so much energy. It is your power.
But I think that they say it's power so they
don't cut their hair off. They're like, no, We're going
to keep it. But with your power comes so many
years of like you have to work for that power,
and that power comes with pain. That power comes with

(12:10):
like a sense of like whatever you had to go
through to gain that power is in your hair.

Speaker 3 (12:18):
And so for me, I was like, I want to
shed this pain that I've experienced.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
I want to shed this and you know, in my weird,
like preteen mind, I'm like also kind of want to
piss my parents.

Speaker 3 (12:28):
Off a little bit.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
Did you knew that at eleven?

Speaker 2 (12:32):
I didn't know that at eleven. But my heart was
like my heart knew that. My mind was like, oh,
I feel uncomfortable and the only way that I can
express this uncomfortability is through doing this. But I look
back and I'm like, no, like I knew I was
just I was terrified. I was. I knew I was
not this person. I knew I was not this person.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
Amazing, So did you know that you were going to
wind up being this person?

Speaker 3 (12:56):
I didn't.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
That's that's the part. That's that's the part that's really
funny to me. I really didn't. But I hoped and
I prayed, and I there. I remember I might have
been like might've been like twelve or thirteen years old,
and I remember just breaking down into tears one day
and being like, am I ever gonna be a real musician?

(13:19):
Like I know that, like I sing songs and stuff,
but like I don't feel like a real musician, so
that must mean that I'm not. And I legitimately had
a whole moment where I was like, oh my gosh,
like I don't want to I don't want to be
in this middle ground anymore. Like I want to be
I want to be a real musician and then I
started playing the guitar at fourteen, which is late to me.

(13:40):
That's late, and that was me starting my journey of like, no,
I'm not just a singer a person who just like
writes songs sometimes like I want to create myself. I
want to create this journey of musicianship.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
So at fourteen, you had zero knowledge of how to
handle this.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
If somebody played me on the piano like a major
third interval, I wouldn't be able to tell them that
it was a major third interval. So like in my mind,
I'm like, that's like okay, Like are you really a
musician or like you just like making songs?

Speaker 1 (14:14):
So we will say that the pandemic started with like
March of twenty twenty. Let's go to like July twenty twenty.
What's your morning routine? Like the world still stopped? I
assume that you. I mean, I know my world stopped.
I assume that even yes, all yeah, world stop? Yes,

(14:37):
So what's your morning routine? Because it wasn't until my
guitar player said, yo, man, you follow on a Instagram.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
So your guitar player brought me to you.

Speaker 4 (14:51):
Wow, the top musicians, that's amazing, the top musician.

Speaker 5 (14:54):
He said, Yo, you follow I said, yeah, I think
I am. He's like dude like her advanced.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
Now here's the thing. There's a period between two thousand
and three and like twoy fifteen.

Speaker 3 (15:13):
Yeah, I feel.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
That where I was I rolling every hit, Like there's
a point where like, Okay, Andre's doing prototype on the
BT boards with the guitar, not knowing how to play
a guitar, but it looked cool. And then Wayne came
on stage and guitar, not guitar, but it looked cool.
Even jay Z had a moment where he had the headline.

(15:36):
You know, he had the whole ordeal with Oasis about
him headlining the thing, and he started his show doing
a wonderwall with the guitar in his hand, and so
suddenly I was just like, Okay, now we're just in
the age where a guitar is an accessory but people
don't know how to play it.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
But let me tell you something, dope, just real quick
before you continue.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
The guitar is also a himb a lot of people.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
I feel like you're vibing with the aspect of like
a lot of people use it performatively, not like, oh.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
I can actually play this instrument.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
It's like, oh, like I'm I'm holding a guitar. That's cool.
But I look at it in the sense of, like,
underneath all that, people know that the guitar has always
been a symbol of the culture.

Speaker 3 (16:19):
The guitar has always been.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
A symbol of like I am stepping out and speaking
on something of the culture, and the guitar has always
been a driving force of that, you know. And I personally,
when I see things like that, I'm like, Wow, they
are recognizing and they want to use the guitar as
a symbol, not necessarily as an instrument, which you know

(16:43):
what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
You know, it's like, you know, twenty twenty, I was
very dark, cynical. I feel that, and you know, I'm
changed now, but back then, so when he said that,
instantly I was like, all right, well, it's just another guitar. Yeah,
and he's like, no, dog, Like I'm serious, yeah, And I'm.

Speaker 2 (17:05):
Like, well, the fact that it was your guitars.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
Right, So that's the thing. And I was like, wait,
you see in her play. He's like, oh, she's kind
of killing it. Wow, I said what. And you know,
sometimes the algorithms might not have you see a person
and I went there and I was just like, oh, snap,

(17:28):
did I miss this? When did I miss this? And
so how did that process soup the nuts?

Speaker 2 (17:33):
Okay, So I started playing the guitar at fourteen, and
I personally was like, oh my goodness. Like I had
tried to play the piano before, like when I was younger,
I had tried other instruments and they never really stuck.
And I've kind of felt like man like, I kind
of felt a little bit of failure energy, like I
was like, damn, like I missed it. And so then yeah,
I missed my office. And then I was like, you

(17:53):
know what, Willow stop? Get out of that mindset, like
just just play every day? Just play every day. And
you know, I went through I had a moment where
I was doing like classical guitar nylon string, like like
I had a moment where I was doing flamenco guitar.
I went through a whole bunch of different phases that
nobody really saw because I was just trying to find it.
I was like, like, how do I want to play
the guitar? What do I want to do?

Speaker 3 (18:15):
And you know, I feel like, well, let.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
Me ask you when you decided, Okay, this is going
to be a part of my life, you know, because
you also have to see something, visualize or whatever. Yeah,
what were you visualizing in terms of like your mastery
of this thing?

Speaker 2 (18:34):
Back before I ever was like obsessed with jazz or ever,
like really was like listening to stuff. I would do
an exercise before I ever had the guitar teacher whatever,
where I would try to sing. I would sing a
melody and I would try to play play that melody. Right,
So I would sing a melody and I would try
to play it, or I would try to be like
I'm thinking of a note in my head and I'm

(18:55):
singing it. Can I play the melody as I'm singing it?
Can I as I'm singing it? Which you know now
that I see, like, I see a lot of beautiful
jazz musicians who do like fully improvised things where they're
just like scatting, but they're following each line with their guitar.
And even before any of this, that was my idea

(19:18):
of mastery. So I would I sat down, I was like, huh,
trying to sing these things, I'm trying to play it,
and weirdly enough, it's like from that seed. You know,
it's just pick it up every day.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
Bro.

Speaker 3 (19:29):
I'm honestly like.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
How many hours do they?

Speaker 3 (19:32):
So I want to say, like a year ago, I started.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
Practicing the most I've ever practiced in my whole life.
So I would I would wake up in the morning,
I would do yoga, I would come back home, and
I would practice for at least three hours, at least
three hours at least okay, which you know to some
of my friends are like three hours, Like that's nothing
for me. I'm like, after the third hour, my mind,
my mind starts to like I can't.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
People say, you know, you practice smart.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
Don't practice like you have to practice smart, like not
just sitting there doing scales. It's like, no, let's practice
for what we really want to be able to do.
We want to practice for the music we want to
be able to create, not just like oh, people say I.

Speaker 3 (20:13):
Should play scales, So let me play scales.

Speaker 1 (20:16):
Who do you like practicing too?

Speaker 2 (20:18):
So there's this app it's called I Reel Pro, and
it has a bunch of stuff from the real book.
It has like like random like midi recreations of things
in the real book, right, And so they give you
all the chords, they give you the they give you
the key or whatever, and I just play that and
I'll just like play along to these like jazz standards.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
Basically for our listeners out there, there are two kind
of Bibles in the world of jazz. There's the real
book and there's also the fake book. I'm part of
the fake book generation. Yeah, so in general, if you
are a supper club musician or just in general, you know,
it's almost like you have to know all the books
of the Bible and all the verses. So if if

(21:00):
you are a jazz musician, you have a real book
on you and basically has all the standards from all
of me to Autumn Leaves to like basically you know,
I'm familiar with the piano version, which is basically just
chord gang.

Speaker 3 (21:13):
Yeah, yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
But there's a real or fake book for guitarist as well.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
No, no, no, no, I'm just going off of the real book,
like the keys and the different like chord changes, and
I'm just improvising on the guitar through those changes.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
So you even have to teach yourself how to read.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
So no, so the really cool thing about this app
is that there's no actual notation, it'll just be like
D sharp or like it'll give you like this, like
when it changes. Do you see what I'm saying, Like
it will actually say like D sharp, like a flat
all this stuff. And so I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay,
a flat, let me find my let me find my shapes.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
They're playing the chord and you have to fill.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, I'm trying to find the lines through the changes,
like if it's changing keys. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
I'm not asking you as an interviewer. I'm asking you
almost for inspiration, like yeah, oh that's how I should do.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
No, totally totally like just playing through the changes, and
I'm not My mind doesn't work in the way of
like oh like now I'm in this key.

Speaker 3 (22:14):
Now I'm in this key, like i'm my ear.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
I just go off of ear usually, but I've been
trying to like get that strength of like no, no, no, no,
I can I know what key this song Isn't you
didn't even have to, you know what I'm saying, Like
I'm trying to get my ear right. I'm trying to
get my improvisational skills right, Like oh, let's say I
go and play with Questlove and his band one day, right,
I don't want to be sitting there going, oh guys,
what cure mean? Do you see what I'm saying? I

(22:39):
want to be it? Yes, I want to be able
to be like ah okay, I hear that rhythm. I
know it's in seven. Ah okay, I hear that chord progression,
it's going to the five. It's going to the four,
it's going to the You see what I'm saying. So
that's what I'm trying right now. That's that's what I'm
trying to learn how to do.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
I think you did it.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
So there's always you know, there's always more to learn.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
Oh no, you're you're always learning, You're always expanding. What
is your morning routine?

Speaker 2 (23:07):
So my morning routine when I'm on my when you're
on your five.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
Version, give me yeah today I got admit this week.
I've never since the pandemic, I've been like rigorous with
you know, yeah the affirmation. Yes, I've let three days
go by and I everything cuble right and then I'm
already in my head like a man. I didn't do

(23:33):
my stretching on my breathing or my affirmations.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
But that's why I had that sciatica bro because I
usually wake up every morning, I do yoga hot yoga
for an hour. Okay, so I do hot yoga for
an hour, then I come back. Then I come back home,
and if I'm working, I pretty much only get to
practice like two hours, like if I have to work,
like if I go to if I go to yoga,
seven am, okay, get back you.

Speaker 1 (23:54):
Go somewhere to go to yes, yes, okay.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
So seven am, I do my hour, come back home
by nine, practicing by eleven. I'm like getting ready to
like leave the house. Okay, you see what I'm saying.
And so then if I have my day, I did
dada da whatever. I have six animals, so I come
back home. I'm trying to make I know. I know,
I have three dogs, three cats, and they like each other.

(24:17):
They love each other. It's nuts. So I'll go do
my day. I'll go to my day working and working whatever.
I come home. Got to take care of the animals.
It's a whole thing. You see what I'm saying. Hopefully
I'll be able to get an hour of reading it
at some point.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
And you swear by this app that.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
I wouldn't say I swear by this app but I
would say that it helps to be like, oh, that's
what it sounds like when the one changes to the five.
That's what it sounds like when the like instead of
just seeing it as like mathematics on a page or
seeing it like a concept, it's like, oh wait, no,
that's what it sounds like. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
So do they guarantee that you will?

Speaker 2 (24:58):
They don't.

Speaker 3 (24:59):
I just use it as a I just use it
as a specific tool.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
I don't even think people actually, I think people just
use it to like, oh, I'm gonna play this song
at a jazz club later tonight, let me shed to
it or something. I think people just use it like that,
explain Okay. So I pretty much during Coping Mechanism, So
that was my last album, I made friends with a

(25:21):
really amazing musician. His name is Chris Creotti. And the
way that he was I've always been a harmony addict,
so like, whenever I start a song, I'm like, oh, harmonies,
and I just never end. I'm like, okay, I need
to stop. So he had that same thing, but he
while he was going through it, he was explaining to me,
like these this this is like the layers of the harmonies.
Like he was explaining to me music theory from a

(25:43):
point of view that I had never heard it before.
Do you see what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (25:46):
So from before I met him, I was like, Oh,
this sounds good. I'm gonna layer this. This also sounds good.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
I layer this. I'm not thinking like, oh, that's the
sharp four, that's the major third.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
And how are you? How are you meeting your community?

Speaker 2 (26:00):
So I'm very very grateful, you know. I opened up
my heart and I was like, please God. I was
like I had not lost some friendships, but had some
rocky roads and you know, friends that I had had
from a young age that I kind of felt like
we're not really growing together, you know.

Speaker 3 (26:18):
So that was really painful for me.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
And I remember being like, oh, I'm opening my heart
and I'm like, God, please allow people into my life
that are going to inspire me and lead me towards
the person that I actually want to be. So I
made I was like I'm being intentional with this, and
I legitimately feel like the universe was like you shed
some leaves. Here are some people in your life to

(26:41):
like uplift you a little bit.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
That's my biggest fear.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
Well, you know, why is that your biggest fear? What?

Speaker 1 (26:50):
See, it's weird to do this episode because usually the
other four will chime in, and you know, I kind
of whit me in this shape, but the way that
I've structured. Okay, so this is what I realized. If
you don't know much about me, you know, my main
addiction was working workaholic. And if a person is a workaholic,

(27:13):
it prevents them from dealing with life or whatever it
was in the room too busy, and thus, as a result,
you know, relationships I have might fall apart after a
year and a half. Are we having kids or not?
Are we getting married? I gotta work on this project.

(27:34):
So thus, you know, one at one time during a session,
I was told to, you know, like, well, name your friends.
And I named them, and you know, my person was like, well,
aren't they on your payroll? And I was like yeah,
but you know, like they're my best friends and we
go to basketball games together whatever. And so then when

(27:57):
I had to list people who are not on payroll
who are.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
My friends but you're working with you're with them all
the time. Like I get that, I get it. I
get that, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
But then the the other side of that coin is
that once they leave, Yeah, then I have zero contact
with the one. So it is a professional relationship and
you're paying for it.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:20):
So you know, I'll say that for the last two years,
I've been struggling to find like friends whom I have
no professional time.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
That's the struggle of my life. That's the struggle of
a lot of artists' lives that I remember. I used
to go to my mom and I would cry, and
I'd be like, am I just too weird? Like? Am
I like? What is like? I I've always been so driven, right,
and I've always had such vision And you're saying like, oh,

(28:55):
you're seeing it as like a workaholic thing, and it
can definitely turn into that, and it does turn into that.
But we're people who have a vision, and we're people
who really maybe too much care about that vision and
making it come to fruition, and even so much so
that we might be like, h this stuff over here. No, no, no, no,
I'm intoxicated by the vision. So I get that part

(29:17):
of it. But I would go to my mom and
be like and she would always tell me, You're gonna
find your tribe.

Speaker 3 (29:21):
You're gonna find your tribe, how.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
Do you avoid the trappings of what people outside of
your dome or your world would see as an easily
Like you know, as far as what we know of
anyone raised anywhere near Hollywood or that sort of thing,
Like it's almost like a one way ticket to the

(29:45):
same filtered path.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
To the same unhappiness and disillusion.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
Well, here's the thing, I don't want to be judgmental
to say, like, well, obviously that person's unhappy whatever. It's
like they they are what they are. But like you
could easily just like okay, and who knows, you might
come out with a sneaker line one day or whatever.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
I'm out with a sneaker line or go to rehab.
Who knows the world's my oyster.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
But you know what I'm talking about, Like, for you
to have not fallen down the same path that I've
seen everyone your age go down, that's miracle enough. Yeah,
so it's but it almost feels though you didn't necessarily
had to hit a rock But based on your lyrics also,

(30:34):
I'm like, okay, there might have been a rock bottom
point that we who.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
Have watched the Red Table talk no things, right, exactly.
But but what I will say is we all experienced darkness.
I've experienced crazy darkness in my life. But that darkness
has informed, weirdly enough, informed and inspired.

Speaker 3 (30:55):
My like just just like my.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
Love for life in such a weird way, like when
you really sit in that loneliness and you really sit
in that like Pemacholdrin this, she's a Buddhist monk. She
calls it being on the edge of a needle. Like
you're a beetle on the on the edge of a
needle and if you move, and you move, you're gonna
impale yourself. See what I'm saying. You're like, oh my god,

(31:21):
this this stings. I'm about to die. And then you're like, ah,
you impel yourself. You know what I'm saying. But if
you can just be still and that it's gonna it's painful.
You know, you're on the tip of a needle, But
if you can be still, you won't impel yourself, you
know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
Okay, So what I've learned about feelings, coming back to
feelings again, is oftentimes when the dark feelings come through,
what I've learned about emotions is, I mean, some people
say thirty seven emotions, some people say two hundred and
eighty emotions. Totally when we get to those dark places,
suddenly this is uncomfortable. What makes me happy? Yeah, and

(32:00):
let me get to happy. Happy is the good feeling
I remember happy, But I maybe learned two years ago
that you even have to let dark emotions process. Man,
And how do you get to that place where you're comfortable?

Speaker 2 (32:19):
Like?

Speaker 1 (32:20):
Weirdly enough, I'm just I'm a year into this.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Self soothing is actually a good thing. Self medicating. You
see what I'm saying. Self soothing is actually what we're
all trying to learn. Self soothing is, I personally believe
one of the important hallmarks of adulthood because you know,

(32:44):
when we're still and shit, I'm a fucking child, I'm
talking shit. But when we're still in that mindset of
like we're born and we need our parents, you see
what I'm saying, And throughout our whole life, we're trying
to gain our parents attention, their love, you know, because

(33:04):
deep in our evolutionary biology, deep in our minds and
our hearts, we are wired we see our parents and
we go you give me life like you sustain me,
like not just with the laughs and the cuddles, but
you feed me, Like if I'm not with you.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
I die, you see what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
And so as life goes on, you know, you have
a boss, so you have your or you have your
you know your partner, and you're like, well, how am
I going to get love from them?

Speaker 3 (33:31):
How am I going to get attention from them? You
see what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
And I feel like very few humans ever get to
the point to where we realize like, oh my goodness,
like it's not about me trying to push myself in
all these different shapes and to stretch myself into all
these ways so that these people will love me or
these people will validate me. It's about me really just

(33:55):
loving them and loving myself. But getting to that place,
I mean, no one gets to that place. You know
what I'm saying. I'm not at that place. I'm talking
from a position of reading a million fucking self help
books and just wishing and hoping every single day, you
know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
So for you, it's a daily struggle to you.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Oh my goodness, are you kidding me?

Speaker 1 (34:15):
I don't feel so alone now.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Oh my gosh. The darkness being choke hold bro like
it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
I'm working on a project right now. I'm gonna tell
the story of sly Stone. Here's the thing though, sly
Stone is, in my opinion, the first post civil rights figure,
which basically means that his level of celebrity is slightly

(34:47):
different than say, Ray Charles Totally, Chuck Berry or James Brown.
Whereas like, Okay, you're famous in the fifties, Yeah, James
Brown cannot eat in the same supper club that he
can perform. You know, that's really yeah, And it's not like, Okay,
in nineteen sixty eight everything was right with the world.
We still definitely not every day. However, sly is the

(35:11):
first Black celebrity of his caliber that kind of gets
draped in a kind of zero fox. Given level of celebrity,
basically gets what we think we want, you know, when
we think of what a celebrity, what is being famous,
what's being rich? What's being popular? Like, he gets the

(35:32):
dream and depending on who you ask, and it's almost
like I'm wondering if I wound up doing this documentary
for me instead of a sly depending on who you ask.
When it comes to his fifth album, he'll release an album,

(35:52):
there's a ride going on in which I'm still sticking
no matter what he says or anyone is camp or
any of the expert as I interviewed, I still feel
as though there's a riote going on. Is one of
the most painful forty one minutes to listen to you,
because whereas you're very transparent in all your work, and

(36:14):
you're not just this album totally, but there's a level
of pain and vulnerability there that I think people are
generally blinded by, simply because on the other side of
that coin, he's such a genius. Like essentially Riot in
my opinion, is his twenty seven club entry, even though.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
He's still okay, yeah, no, I feel you.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
It's someone falling on their sword and it's a self
sabotagement totally. So essentially, I have a theory that black
success is just as traumatic as failure, because there's often
times and which when something really good happens to me,

(37:05):
suddenly I feel guilty about it because I start thinking
about all the other people who are going to alienate,
who won't talk to you anymore because like, oh, you're
too important to talk to me, or it's more isolated loneliness.
Culturally speaking, you're you're always feeling like, WHOA am I
doing too much? Am I selling out? Missing my connection

(37:25):
with where I started? And what I started to notice was,
you know, because people would often ask me about like
my modern piers now totally. Why does blah blah blah
wait ten years between records? Why does da data I
always show up late? Why does da da I always
get go to jail? Why is why is everyone dying

(37:46):
before sixty? Why? Like, why do we start addictions and
all these things? How do you deal with especially now
which I'm assuming that you've had an outpouring love out
the Gate we didn't even talk about with my hair,
like the fact that out the Gate you got this love,

(38:07):
But I almost feel like the love you're getting now
for this record, which is why you know, I'm always
telling you like, I'm so like, I'm only telling you
like three percent of the excitement I feel about this
record totally, because what I don't want to do is
make it so overwhelming that now when you start to
go to another direction during your head about well, damn,

(38:29):
people really loved me when I.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
Was I had that experience with coping mechanism, like I
felt the energy of like people being like, oh, well,
people love you doing rock music.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
People love you in this area.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
And I did have a moment where I was like, well,
do I just make another rock album because it seems
like people really like that.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
But in my heart of hearts, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
I don't know. I'm just super connected with my gut feeling,
and my gut feeling has led me through my entire life,
and I hope that I can stay connected enough to
it for it to lead me till I'm no longer here.
But my gut feeling was just like, you can't make
another rock album, bro, Like you just can't do it.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
Like do you feel like you're speed dating to find
like what's my fit? Or no, who knows what you'll feel.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
I think that I have been experimenting with so many
different kinds of music and gaining so many different tools.
To continue to make so many different kinds of music
and continue to gain so many different tools. I think
my favorite musicians are the ones who do whatever the
fuck they want and who do it well, right with

(39:40):
like a scalpel, Like do whatever the fuck you want,
but do it with like the most trained scalpel.

Speaker 3 (39:47):
In the world, and that's what I'm going for. That's
what I'm going for.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
Okay, I'm gonna try a new twist on an old question. Please, Okay,
h house on fire? Okay, all right, Well you live
in LA anyway.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
So I know, so that's pretty uh think about that.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
Okay, So you've saved your menagerie. Yes, you can only
save five records from your collection. I'm gonna ask twenty
three you that question, and then i'm gonna ask thirteen
year old you that question as well. So twenty three
years old, which five albums are you saving from your
record collection? Okay?

Speaker 2 (40:30):
Purple Rain that's gonna be that's gonna be. That's Prince Record,
that's gonna be number I'm sorry, that's gonna be number
one for me.

Speaker 1 (40:37):
Or Sign of the Times Okay, okay, got no, no.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
Okay, okay, I mean okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna put
both of them in there. I'm gonna put Purple Rain
and Sign of the Times in there, So that's there's
two in there. Okay, I'm gonna put DiAngelo. I'm gonna
put DiAngelo in there. I'm gonna put U.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
Which one in there?

Speaker 2 (40:54):
I'm gonna pu Voodoo in there.

Speaker 3 (40:55):
Okay, I'm gonna put DiAngelo Voodoo.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
I'm gonna put im gonna put Goldfrap Felt Mountain Word.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Okay, how is that four?

Speaker 2 (41:05):
Already four? And then I'm gonna put that one high
is Coyote album? Oh Mood Mood Valiant. Yes, that's the one.
That's the one Mood Valiant. Okay, yeah, so that's my
twenty three year old okay one? Oh man, thirteen, Well.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
I feel like you were even musically advanced at thirteen,
so I might push this back to like nine.

Speaker 3 (41:27):
Oh my gosh, nine Come on.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Man, we all have those records.

Speaker 2 (41:33):
I used to really love this artist named Lanka Lanka.
She was really cool. She had she had a she
had a song. Weirdly enough, I think the song was
called like a song. Ha weird, Yeah, Lanka Lanka. The
song was literally called like a song, which is so weird. Uh,

(41:53):
so we have Lanka uh imagen. I mean. I actually
didn't get into image heap until much later. Hold on
nine nine, man. When I was nine, I was listening
to some Lady Gaga. Bro, I can't even nine dude,
Lady the show.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
You know, you know.

Speaker 2 (42:10):
I was listening to some Lady Got nine Lanka. At
this time, I also was getting into a ballet, so
I was like, I was listening to a lot of
classical music during this time as well. So when you're
when you're practicing ballet, that's all you listen to is
classical music. Wow. Nine nine nine. I wish I could

(42:34):
look at Can I look at my phone?

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (42:37):
Okay, because I'm like, I still have music on my
phone from when I was nine.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
You can't throw away your history.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
Yeah, like music on my phone from when I was nine.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
That's nuts. Oh wait, my mom got me into the
Cocktail Twins.

Speaker 1 (42:52):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Yeah, my mom got me into the cock Yes, I
love that song. My mom got me into the Yes,
my mom loves the Cocktail Twins. Yeah she got me.

Speaker 3 (43:02):
Yeah, she got me.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
My mom actually gave me, like my my musical taste
from like nine to like fifteen's like all my mom, honestly,
which's kind of insaying, you know what's weird? Right, And
this is very controversial, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
Hit me.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
Eminem was like one of my favorite musicians when I
was like nine.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
It's not controversial.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yeah, I loved like I literally had like my heart
like I was like, she's special.

Speaker 3 (43:35):
Like nine years old.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
I'm like, this guy's special.

Speaker 3 (43:37):
I don't know how many that was.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
He kind of went over it.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
Yeah, I went over it.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
I'm sorry, all right, So I see. Wait, I never
told you how I wound up discovering you by accident.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, you know I work at thirty Rocks. Now I've
been there for sixteen years.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
Wow, So that's amazing.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
Back in two thousand and nine, I still felt like
I was a part of the fabric of the world,
not like whatever I'm supposed to be now, like the
getting stages of the Sage Elder, like I don't want
to be that guy, but.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
You are.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
Thank you. But you know, there was a time period
where I started getting fatigue, and I have two occupations
that don't allow that. Being at the Tonight Show, I'm
always asked, Hey, may what do you think about? What
do you think about dirty projectors? Hey what do you
think about? Right? And so it keeps you sharp. And

(44:39):
then as a DJ, now, yes, there's sometimes where I
put myself in positions of which I'm allowed to play
what I feel. But then there's the ones in the
blue moon time where I actually have to like catch
up to society. I got to play the role. And
the thing is is that oftentimes my interns and even now,

(45:03):
like my people that work with me, now you know,
they're in their twenties their thirties, so they keep me
sharp as into who's who and what's what. And so
I think this is right When Olivia Rodrigo was starting
to pop and I heard one song and my old

(45:25):
guy grumpy cynical stance wasn't there. Yeah, And I was like, oh,
that song's not bad totally. And then one of the
interns is like, well, yeah, because the producer she works
with is like kind of your age. Like, I heard
a lot of reference.

Speaker 4 (45:43):
Like references, and I was like, oh, okay, so that's
why her music sounds like it sounded wise in I
was like, there's no way that someone in her.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
Age knows references totally. So I get home and I
put my speaker on. I was like, all right, let
me see what else she has in her catalog that
I might gravitate towards. So I was listening, listening, listening, listening,
and I'm the kind of person that when I'm still
no matter what, Yeah, really instantly asleep. The thing is

(46:18):
the music's blasting.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
And so I was sitting there on my and at
five o nine a m. I heard something.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
Yeah, I said, damn, Olive is kind of incredible.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
Yeah, it's amazing. And but the thing was, I was such,
I mean, this is beyond the alpha and the beta
state of sleep, Like sometimes I actually have the ability
to sleep and over my eyes will still be asleep total,
like occasionally, like my eyes will open but I can't move.
I don't know how to describe it, like I'm still asleep,

(46:59):
but somehow my eyes are are active totally. And I
realized that I was sleeping on top of my iPhone. Yeah,
and I felt the heat thing in the back, but
it was such a deep sleep that I couldn't move
it totally. So I fell asleep again. And then at
around like maybe six thirty seven am, another song came on.

(47:21):
I was like, yo, And this time I got up.
I looked that Willow Smith. Yeah, wait a minute. I
got up at maybe the eight in the morning, totally
entirely in the gym. I went through your whole catalog,
like yo. And this leads back to the whole friend thing.

(47:43):
I was like, Yo, how come no one put me
onto this?

Speaker 3 (47:45):
Totally like what the fuck?

Speaker 1 (47:46):
And then I called Kirk. I said, dude, you remember
what you.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
Told me about Willow? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (47:51):
I said she was alwayshidding like this and girl was like, yo,
I was trying to tell you.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (47:57):
I was like, dude, how came you? I said, wait, Kurt,
how you know about this? And curts like a mirror.
I got kids, My kids put me on the I
felt like, you know, I get mad when something's so
dope and no one puts me onto it.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
I feel you, I feel you.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
You're like, where have I been? Right?

Speaker 1 (48:14):
And literally it's like I was aware, but I never
but not really, I've never deep that. Like, to me,
a mark of a true artist is when they're filler total,
not the songs. You know, this is beyond, this is
not Wait a minute. Came on Olivia Radio like they
I know you say your anti technology. So when you're

(48:34):
on when you're on Spotify, when an album is done,
then they'll automatically put you on whatever artists you chose
their radio stage, of which then they'll start playing their music,
maybe two of their songs. Yeah, someone that's adjacent to
but then they run out of that and whoever the
next artist is under her total. So then apparently in

(48:57):
my sleep, I just heard two hours of your music.
Totally sorry, Olivia, Look, I thought you had those amazing
coret changes, but it wasn't.

Speaker 6 (49:06):
And so we love everyone right right, And so I've
spent like maybe four days just like asking people, like
I went to our bookers totally how come this is
not on the show?

Speaker 1 (49:21):
Literally, I just went on a mission and that's how
I was able to discovery.

Speaker 3 (49:27):
I love that, Like, I love that so much.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
So for you, what is because I know that this
level of magic that's happening for you right now, it's new,
but I feel like there's a result of a manifestation.
Ask for something.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
Oh no, it is. It's a result of manifestation. And
just just not me, just no giving up, dude. Just
like I put out albums and you know, my second
album it was like orchestral.

Speaker 3 (49:52):
There were a lot of like like cellos and stuff.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
Yeah, and that was the first album that I actually
played guitar on. This is the first.

Speaker 1 (50:03):
Yeah, the.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Titles, Yeah, I know I wanted it. I want I'm
not even to go into that. I'm just I'm just
a fucking weirdo. But so that was the first album
I actually played guitar on, and yeah, I don't know,
Like I just feel like every time I've been challenging myself,
challenging myself, challenging myself, and I make it a point

(50:28):
like every album, I want to be able to do
something I never was able to do before. And so
I feel like, you know, my sixth album, I'm like,
I just grew up a little bit, Like, you know,
my tools.

Speaker 3 (50:39):
Have kind of.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
I know where they are. I know I have a
little bit of a more of a mind to know
how to use them. You know what I'm saying, Just
getting acquainted with the tools that I've been that I've
been just trying to gather. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
All your collaborators from from dev to Tyler to on,
how do you choose them? And like, what's the process
at the top of a project when you're creating this stuff.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
I never go before I make an album like, oh
I want these people on it. I always have to
make Jack Antonov said something really really insightful. He said,
whenever you're making an album, there's always that song that's
the door into your album. It's like, think of your
album as a house and you want to bring people inside.
Like what song is that open door bringing people inside

(51:30):
of this house that is your album? And I never
like to think about features until I have that song
that is like, this is the entryway into Empathogen, This
is the entryway into coping mechanism. And once I have
that song, then I'm like who embodies? Like who embodies

(51:50):
the feeling at this entrance? Okay, you know what I'm saying,
Like who embodies? That's why having Jon Baptiste on the
first song of Empathogen, He's like.

Speaker 6 (51:59):
Ah, I love everything, and the first voice on the
record literally of everything.

Speaker 1 (52:05):
I was like, dude, do you know how amazing an
honor it is for you to be the first voice
of what I feel is her arrival to the life place,
Like of all the honor that he's gotten in the
last I know, like, forget his oscars, forget all that,
the fact that he gets to red carpet and be

(52:28):
the first voice of your new.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
Arrival and that's him being himself, like him, I love everything,
Like that's so him, Yes, And I felt like, oh
my goodness, Like what a perfect entry way into this
house that I have created.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
How do you decide, because even with your album titles,
does it come first or does it come last? Because
like I decide what the overall theme is. As far
as your album.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
Titles, there's usually a theme. Like for my first album, Artipithecius,
that's the scientific artist, Like Artipithecus ramatist is like the
scientific word for the first horminid bones that scientists found
that were standing upright. And so for me nerds, I
know that's what it's screams.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
It just screams a nerd because I am a nerd.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
But in my head, I was like, the title always
comes first, And in my head, I was like, this
is my first album, It's going to be a part
of an evolution.

Speaker 3 (53:33):
Like I saw.

Speaker 2 (53:33):
I was like, this is the first step on my
evolution as a musician. And Artipithecus ramitist being like, it's
not quite human yet, you know what I'm saying, But
we're we're what we're almost you know what I'm saying.
We're almost We're gatting there, you know what I'm saying.
And so each album I am like, Okay, I know
the feeling in my heart that I want this to

(53:55):
express and what this means to me, like coping mechanism.
I was so pressed through the entire recording of that album.
I would like all the escapisms I was trying to escape,
you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (54:07):
But yet you let us in when you're that vulnerable.
How hard is that? Because a lot of the artists
I know hide and plain sight totally the first time
I ever heard of this term. Bary Gordy was the
only one not impressed with Marvin Gaye's mastery of multiple tracking. Yeah,

(54:28):
and I don't know if you know the story of
Got to Give It Up, but he actually made a
bet with Marvin Gaye. He says, look, I'll give you
a one hundred thousand dollars check if you can give
me one song when you're not trying to hide behind
all your background vocals and you just sing one lead

(54:49):
and has to be clear or is that we know?

Speaker 2 (54:51):
Totally?

Speaker 1 (54:52):
He said, if you could do that for five minutes
and that song goes to number one, I'll give you
this hundred thousand dollars check. So Marvin Gaye did Got
to Give it Up? Wow, And sure enough, like right
after the five minute mark, suddenly all.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
The Yeah, exactly exactly, But.

Speaker 1 (55:07):
When I went back to listen, I was like, oh, okay,
Marvin Gay hides and plain sight where he's hide and
behind all of his background vocals and totally you can't
make it out and what's he's saying and all that stuff,
because you're very clear on your intentions and on sharing
what you go through. Like, what was the decision to

(55:30):
be that? Honest?

Speaker 3 (55:33):
I never really thought there was any other way.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
I feel like being a kid and being like, ugh,
like I don't want to be the kind of like
I don't want to be a pop star. I don't
want to I don't want to have people pitching me
songs and writing me songs and have other people producing
them and then I just show up and da like
I don't want to do that. That whole realization was
a part of me being like this is not this

(55:56):
is not vulnerable. I'm trying to get to the most
I'm trying to get to the top of that vulnerability hill,
you see what I'm saying. So that whole thing for me,
me going away from that way of doing things was
also me searching for a way to be more vulnerable.
And I've never really gotten off that path. I just

(56:18):
knew that the artists that I love, the artists that
make me feel like life is worth living, they don't
hold anything back and they really tell you how it is.

Speaker 3 (56:28):
And I've always wanted to be one of those artists.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
I never that was never an option in my mind
to like play it safe.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
Did you fear that we wouldn't receive it?

Speaker 2 (56:37):
Because it has not been received? Many times it hasn't
been received. Well, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
You wait time out, you read your press or you
read your whatever reviews.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
I don't. But when you're on social media and you
just put out an album or people are talking or whatever,
and you just get a vibe from your peers, you
get a vibe from you know what I'm saying. And
there have been many times where IM like a that
just didn't hit, Like that's okay, you know what I'm saying,
Like that one didn't quite land, you know, and that's okay.

Speaker 1 (57:13):
What is your biggest fear in life?

Speaker 3 (57:15):
Not reaching my potential?

Speaker 1 (57:17):
Do you visualize what your potential is?

Speaker 3 (57:19):
I do?

Speaker 1 (57:20):
What is your dream? Then that's a big right now
you can share it. Nothing's too silly. Nothing silly what
is my dream.

Speaker 3 (57:31):
I want to be like a shaman.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
Who brings people closer to themselves, but I want to
be a shaman through music. Yes, you see what I'm saying,
Like the interconnectedness, like the science and also the spiritual
aspect of it, and have it integrate completely. I thought

(57:57):
you were gonna give me.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
The nerd alert nerd alert, but it's true because I
am a nerd.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
But I also yeah, like since and I've talked about
this on the show, like yeah, but before twenty twenty,
I was hide and play sight, running from my shadow,
raised in a very strict religious like anything outside of
like my next project, I can't announce it yet, but

(58:22):
we started. My next project is going to deal a
lot with metaphysical living yea. And my goal is, if
I have a dream, my dream is to pry people
away from what they've been taught totally in terms of
spirituality the R word, yeah, and letting go of the

(58:48):
R word and letting more metaphysical spirituality.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
And that is so beautiful, which.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
I mean, it's a lofty goal, but it's it's going
to be hard because if.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
You know.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
Us, you know that safety, safety is our homeboy, and
rather like you know that idea of what we related,
you know, raised it as far as religion is concerned.
Is that so? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (59:12):
No, no, No, expanding the scope of what it means
to be a black person, like you know, what it
means to be a black person connected to God? You
know what I'm saying, That whole aspect is like, there's
so much room.

Speaker 3 (59:28):
To expand that. Yes, there's so much room to expand that.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
Now.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
I did my first journey, like I mean twenty seventeen. Wow,
So I was like, yeah, I want to be a
shaman totally. But it's also like, well, I gotta be
this guy too, So how do I work my way
into that? So I'm glad you said that. I'm at
least with you. I'm like, okay, I'm not crazy. No,
being a shaman.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
No, being a shaman is like being a monk or
a shaman. That's what I always say, being a shaman.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
Yes, that's okay. You say you were anti technology.

Speaker 3 (01:00:04):
But I wouldn't say anti technology.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
I would say television, I do what do you binge?

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
What do I binge?

Speaker 3 (01:00:11):
I really love that one show Blown Away where they
blow glass.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
That's all they do, that's all they do they blow glass.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
And they like make these insane glass sculptures.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Okay, where do I find.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
This in Netflix?

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Okay? Blown away?

Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
Blown away?

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
Say like the guy a channel or something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
No, it's like art, it's super artistic. But I wouldn't say.
I wouldn't say I mean blowing or is it? No?
People just go in their artists and they blow glass
and they and they compete.

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
Wow, Like what's yeah, it's called blown away?

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
See the business guy means also like trying to figure
out what that pitch meaning was like literally like okay,
here's the deal. It's beautiful, you're going to do glass
towards all right? Blow away?

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
No, it's flying?

Speaker 5 (01:00:56):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
Uh? What is your all time favorite cereal? Questions? Really?

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
I me and my brothers wou down some cinnamon toast
crunch back in the day. I love Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
Okay. Well, as a person that's always displayed her talents
on our social media, I think there's anything left. What
secret talent do you have that we don't know about?

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
Listening?

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
That's a talent.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Yeah, some people don't do it well. Most people don't
do it well.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
Facts. Okay, what is your go to order at Starbucks?

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
Oh? Yeah, hibiscus, the ice hibiscus something tea, Yes, yeah,
I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
I'm new to I'm new to Starbucks World. I've avoided
tea and coffee for the longest point.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
I feel you as of lately I've been it's just
so sugary.

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
Yes, exactly. What is the one conception of you that
most of us get wrong that you would like to correct.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
That I am somehow exempt from feeling deeply because I
have privilege.

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
That's real, that's real. That's another part of this sli thing,
Like we often think that once you get to safety,
oh there's money, that's actually.

Speaker 3 (01:02:27):
When the problems start totally.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
That's when again I don't know what the one to
ten level of what your reaction was to the pandemic.
You know, I went through like maybe three weeks of
like balled up in the corner fetal positions level panic
and then you know, that's when suddenly you get you know,
a mere you need to learn what meditation is and

(01:02:50):
all that stuff. So there was a period even though, yes,
twenty twenty was somewhat of a horrible year because also
on my side of the fence, like the amount of
people all lost, Yeah, a lot of a mount of
people in the hospital, like you know, I mean, can
you help us out with dada da? So, like just
the weight of my world.

Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
A community trying to try.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
To it was hard. But I think for the first
time of this year, I started like looking at twenty
twenty like.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
The good old days, which I don't know, like how
is that happening?

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
So like now that we're in twenty twenty four, like
how do you look at twenty twenty, Like was it
the good old days? Or was it like never again?

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
Twenty twenty was dark, okay, twenty twenty, twenty twenty one,
twenty twenty two, it was dark okay. But I will
say the thing that really kept me present This is
gonna sound weird, but if I didn't have so many animals,
I probably would have been way more dis associated and

(01:04:01):
not grounded in reality because you got six animals looking
at you like I need this, I need this, I
need this all the time. Yeah, And so that kept
me always so in the present moment.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
Are the dogs the same breed at least?

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
No, they're all different. One's one's this big, one's like
it's a.

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
Lot Jackie Barland, Tito, Michael, Randy, and.

Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
Were putting them to work. So the cats are Lola, Tubs.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
And Aria okay. And the dogs are Abby, Corn and Rocky.
And Rocky's the big one, the big german shepherd. Abby
and Corn are Tainy okay.

Speaker 1 (01:04:41):
Last three questions, When is the last time you cried?

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
Huh A little bit this morning?

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
Okay? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:04:48):
I cry every day.

Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
That's amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
Yeah, I cry every day, damn.

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
One of my biggest shames was like, doing one therapy session,
they asked like, when's the last time you cried? I
was like this decade?

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Ah, wow? Really and they were like whoa.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
They were like, you basically said that you haven't taken
a piss in a decade? Is that what you're saying?
And I was like, well, you know, maybe five years
ago in my boy's funeral, I think I cried. It's
so good for three twenty three, twenty twenty are wow,
that's amazing. I mean I wish I had that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
That hyper emotion emotion out sometimes I.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
See, no, I gotta get to you, I gotta I
gotta do that. At least your emotions.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
Are moving, We got it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
Yeah, all right, what's your favorite word?

Speaker 3 (01:05:32):
Recently I've been saying voracious a.

Speaker 1 (01:05:34):
Lot okay for future scrabble game.

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
Gracious, No, Like, I just love like like I'm a
voracious reader, Like I love like. It's like you're so
in like you're so into it, you're so like consumed
by it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
Last question, you're in your seventies, you have the luxury
to retire, and let's just say the earth is still here.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
Oh man, I hope so yeah. Flip a coin.

Speaker 6 (01:05:59):
Yeah, where are.

Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
The three cities that if you did not have to
work a day in your life ever again, would you
just want to be in exist with three cities?

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
I feel like I'd be down to pass away, live
the rest of my days in like Oregon or Portland. Yeah,
I don't know about Portland. I love Portland like I
love Oregon, Like I literally road trip down there all
the time, just just like for nothing or India.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Talk Portland. Until the kind of fuckery of twenty twenty
that happened, Portland was my number one city ever more
use record store totally. The Food Truck game was good,
bro wow. I thought it was the only one that
rode like. Portland and Austin were always like my team.

Speaker 3 (01:06:48):
The vibe is just so there, like I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
Look, I cannot say this enough. I've been as a
guy who's been constantly grumpy of like just dealing with well, no,
not dealing with life, as this is a person who's
married to music, like I've been in show business like
since the age of five. Yeah, and you know, there's

(01:07:15):
a point where suddenly I didn't like music anymore, and
then I became indifferent, and then I just had no
hope for the future whatsoever. I want to thank you
for just allowing yourself the space to be this artist

(01:07:38):
like I needed to see it, you know, because sometimes
we often feel like we're a loaned and I was
looking ahead for a leader, and you know, maybe I
had to realize that. Well, you ever think that one
day that a black woman three decades your your your junior,

(01:08:02):
might be the leader that you're looking for. And I'm
just and I don't think it's by accident of discovering
your music and all those things. Like, I want to
thank you for allowing yourself the space to grow. And
I know that if other people see it, it makes

(01:08:24):
them feel that they can do it too. Yes, and
maybe this is the paradigm shift I've been.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
Hoping for so you're gonna make cry.

Speaker 1 (01:08:36):
Yes on, behalf on, behalf of my q ols. Fam.
Shout out to Chick, Stephen and Bill and and Uhlayah, Fontigelow,
Jake and Fritt. Thank you very much, Willis Smith. This
was an overdue conversation. Oh come on now, tell me

(01:08:59):
a joke. All right, end on this, tell me a joke.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
I can't. I'm just a thank you so much for this.
Oh my goodness, you're welcome.

Speaker 1 (01:09:09):
Thank you so much. All right, goodbye people. Wow, that
was awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
That was amazing.

Speaker 7 (01:09:15):
Thank you for listening to Quest Love Supreme. This podcast
is hosted by a Mere Quest Love Thompson, Lijah Saint Clair,
Fonte Coleman Sugar, Steve Mandell, and myself unpaid Bill Shir.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
The executive producers.

Speaker 7 (01:09:27):
Are Meir just walked into the goddamn room, Thompson, Sean
g and Brian Calhoun. Produced by Brittany Benjamin, Jake Payne
and Liah Saint Clair. Edited by Alex Conroy I Know
Alex Conen. Produced for iHeart by Noel Brown.

Speaker 1 (01:09:48):
West Love Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio. For
more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app
Apple podcasts, wherever you listen to your favorite shows.