March 14, 2024 • 37 mins
Lala Kent said,
"You isolate. You groom. You lie."
What does it all mean? Rachel wants to know.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Rachel gos Rogue. This is Rachel Savannah Levis,
your host of Rachel Goes Rogue. Today, I have a
special guest joining us, and you may know her as
your bish therapist. Melissa Reich will be joining us today.
She is a therapist turned pop culture na Shionado. Melissa
(00:29):
earned a master's degree in clinical psychology and has practiced
for twenty two years. I'm familiar with Melissa Reich's podcast.
I listen to Jamie Oliver's podcast, who had Melissa on
her podcast and they were talking about abuse, and I
followed her after listening to that podcast, and she's been
(00:53):
posting a lot of vander pump Rule's content. The one
that caught my eye most recently was a post that
she did on the topic of grooming and what grooming was.
So I figured what better way but to have her
onto my podcast to talk about grooming.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
What is it?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Why is it controversial to say somebody's a groomer? And
I would like to hear her perspective on grooming and
how it relates to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Please welcome Melissa. Right, Hi, Melissa, how are you?
Speaker 3 (01:30):
I am so good, Thank you so much for having
me and I just feel it's so wild talking to
you in person. So it's just good to see your
face and it's good to hear her.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah. I know we connected on Instagram recently because I
listened to Jamie Oliver's podcast and you were on there
as a guest, and you were talking about abuse, and
that's one of the topics that it's a heavy thing
to talk about, and I really admire the way that
you're able to take on those tough conversations in a
(02:02):
way that's productive.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
I appreciate that. That's kind of what my whole thing is.
And you know, because I'm like, well, let's make something
good out of something that can be really toxic. So
that's my goal and I'm I'm just really excited to
do that here with you again.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
And since you are a therapist, you are specialized in
all of this stuff and know all of the terms.
And I noticed on your Instagram you posted something on
the topic of grooming because that came up on Banderpump Rules,
So I was hoping you could help us define what
(02:41):
grooming is.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Sure, it's a little bit complex, there's a lot to it,
but so grooming is really manipulative behaviors that an abuser
uses to gain access to a potential victim, to coerce
them to agree to certain things, and to reduce the
risk of being caught. So it's kind of an amalgamation
(03:06):
of a lot of really complex behaviors, but the goal
is always manipulation, control, coercive control, and things like that.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
What are some signs of grooming?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Well, And one thing I do want to say too,
because this is a common misconception, is that adults can
be groomed. I think, you know, one of the things
that makes me frustrated is folks think that it can
only be children or teenagers, but adults can very much
be groomed as well. So I wanted to make sure
I added that.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
It's such a controversial topic.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
I feel like because people get very I don't know,
like they're like, no, that's not grooming. This person's an adult.
They can't be groomed, so it doesn't qualify. So what
would the qualification be for an adult to be groomed
with them?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
You know? The broncadgrous is just that people who are vulnerable, right,
so marginalized groups, people with mental health issues, people who
are struggling in that way. You know, sometimes we are
more susceptible as adults to this sort of stuff than
many people would like to admit. And for me, it
(04:20):
does go into a little bit of victim shaming and
victim blaming, right, which our society does love to do,
as you have found out. So I think that a
it's a mix of people have a hard time reconciling
in their brain how that could happen as an adult.
But you know, when you're struggling, as you know, with depression, anxiety,
(04:43):
post traumatic stress disorder, all of these things, there's no
age limit to it. And I think there's the shaming
of well, someone should know better, and it's like, but
sometimes we don't for a multitude of reasons.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
My understanding of what grooming is, I guess, is like
this person wants something out of you, and it's like
a gradual easing into this thing where it's so subtle
that you almost don't notice that it's happening. I guess,
(05:22):
like pushing boundaries.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
That's exactly right. I call it. I have a term
for it. I call it boundary stretching. Okay, so what
that means to me is, you know, when you put
on a pair of pants and they're a little tight,
and you just give them a little good old stretch
and they, you know, they'll fitch you eventually. People you know,
I'm joking, of course, that's a silly example. But people
who are good at this are good at boundary stretching.
(05:48):
It doesn't feel so they do things where it doesn't
feel like a blatant boundary violation, but it is at
the very edge of your boundaries, and so it stretches,
and it stretches, and it stretches, and known what starts
to happen is that we now are engaging in behaviors
that do violate our boundaries. But it creates what I
(06:10):
call a cognitive dissonance, which is a belief that well, wait,
I've been participating in this, so this can't be that bad,
this can't right. And then also the perpetrator, they use
a lot of gas lighting to support the boundary stretching, right,
they might deny, well, that's not what I'm doing. So
(06:32):
I believe that we in our gut know when something
feels right or doesn't. And so my best feedback with
that is just to listen to your gut, because you know,
and I'm sure you've experienced this too, right, where things
happen that in your gut you just did not feel
really comfortable with. But it's how this slow, incremental boundary
(06:54):
stretching really is a huge tactic.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
As you're describing this, I'm just thinking back to the
situation with Tom and I and like how that came
to be because on the episode, Laala hold Tom that
he's a groomer.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
And as I'm thinking.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Back to that, like the whole like first kiss that
happened in the pool at Tom and Ariana's house, I
know that it wasn't just like a flip, you know,
like there were steps that were taken to get to
that point. And as I look back, I'm starting to
(07:34):
recognize what those little things were that made me feel
comfortable enough to go there right right.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
And so what you're saying is exactly you know what
I'm talking about, where it's it's small and incremental and
it happens over time. So yes, that experience makes makes
sense to me.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
The thing that Lala was pointing out to Tom was
when she heard me say I'm isolated and I don't
have anyone else and I need to fall in line
with Tom otherwise like I won't have anybody. I think
from the point that we kissed to the point where
I broke down on camera my final interview, there was
(08:22):
a lot of isolation along the way because we were
keeping this secret and I wasn't allowed to tell my friends,
but he was allowed to tell certain friends, and so
when I did hang out with my friends, it is like, oh,
what are you up to? And I had to come
up with something because I couldn't tell them what I
was actually doing, which furthered me from them and made
(08:47):
me closer to Tom, because I felt like we had
a connection, like something to talk, you know, like some
substance to talk about. So I just wanted to point
that out that, like I think isolation it's probably a
key factor in the grooming process.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
It is, and I'm happy to speak to some of
the signs. One thing I do just want to say,
you know, I want to be really cautious as a therapist.
You know, I don't know Tom. I'm certainly not saying
that he is a growth you know. I so I
want to help educate, right, and I want to help
validate And it sounds like, you know, that makes sense
(09:25):
to you. So I just want to be real cautious,
you know, because I'm not your therapist. I don't know you,
I don't know him, you know, I just wanted it
to put that out there. But there's kind of some
benchmark warning signs of grooming, and one of them is isolation,
because it's an attempt to control the narrative. If we're
(09:45):
separating somebody from their loved ones or their friends. You know,
like you said, you weren't you didn't really have anybody
to talk to. Well, there's a functionality in that, which
is that you're then more susceptible to certain behavior, right
because if you're alone with it and you're experiencing it
(10:09):
and you have no one to kind of talk to
or to say, hey, Rachel, I'm noticing this or I'm
seeing that. You know, have you thought about this? It
makes us look at things differently, and so that's definitely
one huge piece of it. A couple of other pieces
are Secrets are huge. You know. There's a saying. I
used to work at an impatient residential treatment facility for
(10:31):
drugs and alcohol, and there's one of the sayings is
that secrets keep us sick. And I'm sure that that's
something that you've learned as Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Yeah, that was definitely something that clicked in my mind.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
I'm like, oh, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
I've been keeping secrets for a long time and it's
it's made me sick.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, truly.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
And again that's that's the incremental boundary stretching too, right,
because it's like, well, if you're going to keep a
small secret, then people know that you're going to keep
a bigger secret. And so you know what I always
tell people when it comes to grooming or whatever it
may be, someone who truly loves you is never going
to ask you to keep their secrets. Never.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Never.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
It's just it's a huge red flag. So you know,
to hopefully validate your experience and a lot of other
folks as well.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that with my therapist right now,
we've been she's like, you need to protect yourself, and
we've been really examining what are red flags so that
I'm able to spot them and be like, oh, that's
a red flag and then you know, take the appropriate
action to make sure you're being protected. And as I'm
(11:48):
watching vander Pump Rules, I see it through a whole
different lens. Now I'm like, wow, that's a red flag,
and I could only imagine, like eventually, I feel like
I will go back and watch season eight when I
was in that relationship with James, because I think it'll
(12:09):
be I don't know, I feel like it'll be a
therapeutic experience, just to kind of see it through a
more mature lens.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Well, you know, one thing I give you a ton
of credit for is that you are so willing to
take a step back to look at your stuff. And
so what you're talking about is looking through things with
a more therapeutic lens, whereas before you were looking through
it with a more a more painful, more you know,
(12:43):
coming from a place of depression, anxiety, and the things
that you've talked about, right, those lenses, they do inform
our perspective. So and I also I give you a
lot of credit for a working with your therapist. But
b I do think that's so smart too. Only do
it when you're ready, because you know, the one thing
for me with my podcast is I do a lot
(13:05):
of trigger warnings because trauma survivors, you know, we appreciate it,
and we we have to be ready to take the
information in that we're watching. And so you know, I
think that you know, you had talked about I listened
to some of your other podcasts and you had talked about,
you know, Bravo putting some resources at the end about
suicide prevention and things like that. But also what frustrates
(13:29):
me is that there's no trigger warning at the beginning.
If there were trigger warnings for every really concerning scene,
we may not have our beloved Bravo shows, right. So,
you know, I do think that is a very wise
point of view to really listen to yourself and do
(13:49):
it when you're ready and not a minute sooner. And
if ever, right, you may not that may be something
that you choose not to do, and that's okay too.
So a couple other things that I wanted to know
that our warning signs is there, and I feel like
I've heard you talk about this a little bit, a
desensitization to touch and discussion of sexual topics m so.
(14:13):
And again this is not just with kids and teenagers,
this is with adults too. And there's again that boundary stretching.
There's you know, it canst start out as a little
back touch or a little you know, hip rub or
whatever it is, and then it's like slowly and slowly
and slowly right that it seems like.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's like that didn't mean anything.
It was just like a maybe an accident or like oh,
we just bumped into each other, or oh like oh man,
I just flashed back. And I think of like the
boundary stretching that was happening, where you know, all three
of us were in the same environment and he would
(14:58):
almost push Ariana's boundaries when he would touch me a
certain way or like massage my feet in front of her,
and then but like act like it was completely normal.
So then for me it was like, well, it feels
like it's okay. And then you know, Ariana is not
(15:20):
saying anything. But I'm you know, thinking back, I'm sure
she was uncomfortable with it, but maybe he didn't want
to say anything in front of him. I just feel
like he was pushing both of our boundaries.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Sure, sure, And I mean I encourage you to listen
to your gut with that, because how you're explaining this is,
you know, in theory. Really what I'm talking about that,
I'm talking about the theory and you're talking about the
actual reality of that. So yeah, that makes a lot
of sense. And I think that in that same vein
of what you just said, the biggest thing is that
(15:59):
folks who engage this behavior really make it seem natural
and appropriate to avoid raising suspicion. So that is one
of the parts of it that it's like again with
(16:19):
a boundary stretching, there's just a normalization that in my
opinion in what I've seen in my clinical practice, is
it kind of escalates again because you know, they they
don't want to seem suspicious, or they don't want to
seem out of pocket, or you know, whatever you want
to call it. So you know that that's definitely a
(16:40):
huge part of it. And then in all of this,
right are things like love bombing. There's love bombing and
keeping secrets, and with all this there's a a discussion
of inappropriate sexual topics that maybe you normally wouldn't feel
comfortable with but are being kind of like it like
(17:05):
it's exposure therapy almost so in therapy, one of the
things that we do to treat traumas called exposure therapy,
but there's also these like little exposures to things that
prime us neurologically or neuropathways for accepting certain behaviors, and
(17:25):
so in the moment, you know, as you're listening to
me say this and people are listening to this, if
something is clicking to you or you're thinking back to something,
you got to trust that gut. You got to trust
your gut instinct because nobody knows what's better for you
than you.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Nobody.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
I believe that wholeheartedly. Like as a therapist, I'm a guide.
I'm a guide to help people save their own lives.
And it's a pleasure and it's an honor. But you
really do all the work.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
That's why I get annoyed when people tell me that
I should have done this, could have just done this,
and then do this, you know, especially with like coming
back to do the show, Like, oh, if you're talking
about it so much, why don't you just go back
to Vanderpump rules. You should have done that, you know, right,
And I'm like, I'm pretty sure I know what's best
(18:16):
for me.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Right and so, but that's my message to you and
people listening, like people who have been gas lit or
what have you, is that you're really doing the work.
And I think that for so long, in my estimation,
you really didn't have a voice, so to use your
voice is honestly so important because it's not only helps you,
(18:42):
but it also does help other people. You know, in
the program we talk about sharing your experience, strength, and
hope with others is invaluable not only for your growth
but also for your healing. Because true, I give you
a ton of credit for not going back to vander
pump Roles, because I think that everyone's going to have
(19:05):
an opinion about what you do. But at the end
of the day, we have to put our head on
the pillow and go to sleep and know that we
did write by us.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Okay, I wanted to ask you, like just straight up,
when you were watching vander pump Roles, when you heard
Lalla accusing Tom stand of all of grooming, what was
your immediate reaction?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
What was your immediate.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Well, so, like I said, I can't you know, I'm
not I'm watching observable behavior on TV right. I don't
know Tom, I don't know La La, I don't know
any of you. I have to be mindful of how
I get my feedback on this, But my immediate thought
is that Lala made some very important points that are
(20:11):
kind of in line with what we're talking about, right,
Like I'm never going to label Tom X, Y or Z.
But if we're looking at the behaviors and you know
what Laala is noticing and the isolation and all of that,
I mean, I think that that that's valid. That's valid.
(20:32):
We can't do revisionist history and say that it's not valid.
One behavior, one thing doesn't make anyone a label, right,
A groomer or narcissist, right that people like to throw
that around a lot. And you know, on that note,
what I'll say is too we all have narcissistic tendencies,
myself included, you know, And so I think that clinically,
(20:54):
how I look at things is there's a spectrum of behavior, right,
so when we start seeing behavior, we look at it
on the spectrum and then you know, behaviors add up
to more, you know, problematic issues and can lead to
personality issues and things like that. So where he lies
on that that I can't speak to. But my immediate
(21:15):
reaction was one of concern.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, thank you for answering that.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
You know, I don't want to label Tom anything either,
And I know I've called him a NARS system in
the past, and maybe I shouldn't have done that, But
you know, you start seeing these patterns and these types
of behavior, and there are terms that psychologists use to
(21:39):
explain this behavior because once you're able to pick up
on it, it becomes predictable's and yeah, so it's it's
like the terminology is used as a tool, not as
an insult to somebody.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
And let me be clear, Rachel, that's your experience. You're
allowed to say whatever you want. Let me be super clear. Okay,
you are allowed. You're the one who experienced it, and
so I'm not here to tell you that you can't
say or do certain things. For me, the difference is,
as a therapist and I have the credentials to be
able to diagnose, I have to be mindful about how
(22:19):
I say.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
If I'm going to be completely honest, I do feel
like I have been groomed because I was in a
very vulnerable state of mind and I just got out
of a relationship that I feel like was.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Very destructive to my well being.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
He witnessed that whole thing play out, and I think
things started shifting when we went to Coachella and he
really went out of his way to hater to me.
And he process through this with my therapist and he
(23:03):
even had these like non nicotine cigarettes that he would
light for me and we would smoke it together. And
now thinking back on it, like did he bring those
just for me or did he bring those for people
that didn't smoke cigarettes that he wanted to smoke with them.
(23:28):
And then my therapist also mentioned that smoking is a
very intimate type of activity because normally you like socialize
and separate from the group to go smoke. So that
was like the first thing that I can really label
as I think that was grooming.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Sure, And you know, I again respect how you feel. Sincerely,
nobody can tell you how you feel. And I'm just
honored to, you know, be here to process this with you,
to talk about this with you. And I'm also grateful
that you you have a therapist to process this with
(24:11):
because as you're experiencing it is such a mind jumble.
When you're sifting through all of this, right, memories pop
up and things pop up that you never thought about
twice And so you know what I will say is
when we start to heal, everything about us heals and
(24:32):
our perspective shifts and we see things in a different light.
And so I give you a lot of credit for
doing that hard work, and I hear you.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I hear you, what are the ways to identify a
grooming dynamic and a relationship? And once you're able to
identify it, how do you leave? Oh?
Speaker 3 (24:53):
That's those are good questions. How you identify it is Honestly,
I would say if you have a guide, So whether
you know there's some people who either don't believe in
therapy or don't have access to it. Right, I'm not
going to pretend that therapy is accessible to everybody. It
should be, but it may not be. So I think
the first step is trying to discuss it with a
(25:15):
a helpful advocate, a guide, someone who has your best
interest truly in mind. Right, So for me, a therapist,
I feel like is a great adoption if you have one,
But if not, it may be doing some research on
your own, contacting the victim's advocate. You know, the RAIN
has so many good resources for folks. They have online
(25:37):
chats and they have phone numbers. So I think that
the first step is if you're feeling something isn't right,
listening to that. That's step one. Step two is finding
a safe space, a guide, an advocate, a therapist, someone
that can help you you know groups, domestic violence groups,
or you know, just a trusted person that but you
(26:00):
know they have your back and they're not going to
weaponize anything or try to skew anything. And then I think,
truly the answer is processing, right because for you, and
I'm not sure if you can speak to this, but
when you're in therapy, you process things in such a
way that you cannot do alone. And I'm gonna say
(26:21):
myself included, right, I'm a therapist, but I have my
own therapist because you know, I think we all need
help seeing the forest for the tree sometimes. So again,
to summarize, it's talking about it self, assessing, really figuring out,
touching base with ourselves because I think the one thing
that a lot of women especially don't do. We love
(26:45):
to gaslight ourselves. I mean society loves to do it too,
but we love to gaslight ourselves in terms of being
like maybe I was being, you know, too judgmental. We
love to do that, and it's like, ladies, let's just stop.
Let's just stop the madness and trust yourself enough to
know that if your gut's telling you something isn't right,
(27:06):
you know that's really worth taking a.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Look at great answer. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
I think it's so helpful to know that there's resources
out there for you and there's ways to get help
even if you can't afford a therapist.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Rain dot org specifically, I just wanted to make sure
people listening to this are getting good resources. So Rain
dot org, r ai n N dot org is a
great resource they had. There's the National Sexual Assault Hotline
eight hundred sixty five six hope. You can also chat
online at online dot rain dot org. It's free, confidential
(27:42):
twenty four to seven. So you know, doing a quick
Google search if you're looking for specific resources, you know,
thankfully the Internet is a beautiful thing and it does
help us get connected to those resources if therapy isn't accessible.
One other thing I want to say too, I really
recommend it's called psychologytoday dot com and it's a website
(28:05):
where I kind of joke it's like Tender for therapists,
but without the sex part. It's like, so you can
look through profiles and you can look at pictures, and
you can look at what do they specialize, and you
can search by insurance information and all that and all
that stuff, because choosing a therapist is also really hard
and really daunting, right, So that's usually a good resource
(28:28):
that I like to recommend for people too.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
I know a lot of people are going to critique,
you know, this discussion about grooming because I'm I was
a twenty eight year old now twenty nine year old
woman who should know better and can make my own decisions.
I'm a grown adult that grooming doesn't happen to these people.
(29:02):
But I just wanted to say, like, I was in
a very very vulnerable place, and this is not an
excuse by any means. This is just like my experience
and my learning process through what I went through, and
I knew that it was unhealthy. But the consistent like
(29:24):
text messages, face times, insisting that we FaceTime, you know,
not letting me sleep. He was even attempting to turn
me against my family and saying, my family isn't caring
for my well being. They just you know, they have
ulterior motives and would refuse for me to like have
even the full forty eight hours to myself with an issue.
(29:48):
So I think it gets to a point where, you know,
it may start out as just like little teeny things,
and then it turns into something more, until it's like
something very controlling and powerful, and when you're in it,
(30:10):
it gets so consuming where it almost feels normal, Like
it felt normal to FaceTime him every single day. It
wasn't until I really took that time away and checked
myself into an impatient treatment facility and started really focusing
on the work and limiting my time talking to him
(30:34):
so I could like think for myself, Yeah, it really
is hard to see it when you're in it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
I think that your point is so important that we
need time and space to get perspective. I would say
most of the time in relationships, because you know, I
kind of use this analogy of you know, sometimes we
lie in a pile of our own garbage and we're
just to it. You know, it smells, but it's warm,
(31:03):
and it's like shaped to our body, and you're like, ooh,
this feels normal. But then you get out of it,
like someone reaches in their hand and they grab you out,
and you look back and you're like, girl, how did
I do that? You know? So I think your point
it's so valid that we do need time and space
a way to really get full perspective. Number one. But
(31:23):
number two, something else I would like to say from
a neurological standpoint is that our brains do not fully
develop until the age of twenty five. The last part
of our brain to develop are the prefrontal cortexes, and
that controls impulses. Okay, so I think that, you know,
(31:46):
I don't want to get on my soapbox, but I
think that societally there's a lot of judgment about well,
if you're in your twenties, you're a full blown adult,
your brain would beg to differ. Okay, so I think
that you know, when you're in your twenties, you're still young.
There is this weird tocidal expectation that the day that
(32:08):
you turn eighteen, you're supposed to all of a sudden
be an adult and responsible for everything. And that's a
just not true, but b the thing that I appreciate
most about you, which is something that a lot of
folks cannot do. You'll say, yeah, you know, I know
I'm going to get backlash for this. I know that
I was twenty nine, and I know that I'm you know,
(32:30):
a grown woman, and you take accountability for that, right,
and that is all that we can do as humans.
All we can do is say, wow, this behavior was
not characteristic of me, and this was not the person
that I'd like to be. So let me actually take
a look, get time and space, get some help, and
(32:50):
work on changing that. I'm my goodness, isn't that what
you are doing? But people, you know, you certainly cannot
please everybody, and people, oh are going to be critical
and judgmental and just mean. So I think that your
healing is yours and yours alone, and you have to
(33:12):
do things the way that make the most sense to
you for lasting change. Because truly, you know, there's a
saying in the field that past behavior is the best
predictor of future behavior. Right, I'm sure you've heard that
many times before.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I haven't heard that, but it makes complete sense. Yeah,
and I'm noticing, like, okay, people have patterns, like it's
a pattern. It's not going to stop unless they really
want to change.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yes, And so what I'll say on that is that
while that is the case, I believe that anybody is
capable of change only if they are motivated to do
so period. You know, So when you're ready, when you're motivated,
when you have a good team, you're unstoppable. There's nothing
(34:04):
that can stop you. So you are actively intervening on
your own behavior to say, you know what, I know
that I didn't like this, that I did this, and
I'm owning it, and I'm going to look at this
and I'm going to continue to make sure that I
don't ever go back to that pile of garbage. And
I don't mean Tom, to be clear, I just mean
(34:25):
write your own pile, Rachel's pile, right, like, yes, that
that garbage pile. She's gone, and so you know, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, and it's so true because it could you know,
like we're not just talking about Tom here, like you
will attract the type of person that you let into
your life, you know, your own worthiness, and it would
just repeat until I learned my lesson.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
That's right. And I'll say, you know, I I had
a lot of situations growing up that were really hard
for me, and I dated only narcissists until I did
the work. Then you know, I did the work and
I met my beautiful husband. We've been together for twenty
two years and I'm so grateful. But yeah, our our
(35:15):
trauma in our life informs who we pick. You know,
you've heard the term that people have a bad picker. Well,
that's not like a character defect. It's like we sometimes
we have a bad picker because of our own stuff, right,
if we don't feel that we're worthy, if we don't
feel that we're important and deserve good things. So all
(35:36):
of that is impactful when you're picking a partner. And
what I think is beautiful with you is that doing
the work you're doing will ensure that the next partner
that you pick will really be good for you and
will really be true partnership. And you know, so look
forward to that. I promise it will happen, It'll come. Yeah, yeah,
(36:00):
it'll be a much different experience. I have a feeling,
but I'm not not quite.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Ready yet to date.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
But eventually, when I get there, I know that it'll
be a much healthier relationship, just because I'm taking care
of myself now and like you know, I'm prioritizing my
mental wellbeing, and so I'll attract somebody who you know,
(36:28):
hopefully is working on themselves and like taking care of
their own wellbeing, because if they're not, then I'm going
to recognize it as a red flag.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Yeah, yeah, and as you should. I mean, all we
can do is from these experiences, all we can do
is grow.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
So much for joining us. Melissa.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
You can check her out on Instagram at your bish
Therapist and she also has a podcast channel, Your bish Therapist,
and she's incredible on there. Just like the d I
listened to your Paris Hilton's dissecting her documentary and her
interactions with her family members, and I thought it was
(37:09):
very insightful, So definitely go give her a follow.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Thank you so much, Rachel. I appreciate you having me
and I'm so happy to have met you. I'm so
happy to have this conversation and I'm just grateful, so
thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Thank you so much for listening to Rachel Goes Rogue.
Follow us on Instagram and TikTok for exclusive video content
at Rachel gos Rogue Podcast
This is Rachel gos Rogue. This is Rachel Savannah Levis,
your host of Rachel Goes Rogue. Today, I have a
special guest joining us, and you may know her as
your bish therapist. Melissa Reich will be joining us today.
She is a therapist turned pop culture na Shionado. Melissa
(00:29):
earned a master's degree in clinical psychology and has practiced
for twenty two years. I'm familiar with Melissa Reich's podcast.
I listen to Jamie Oliver's podcast, who had Melissa on
her podcast and they were talking about abuse, and I
followed her after listening to that podcast, and she's been
(00:53):
posting a lot of vander pump Rule's content. The one
that caught my eye most recently was a post that
she did on the topic of grooming and what grooming was.
So I figured what better way but to have her
onto my podcast to talk about grooming.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
What is it?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Why is it controversial to say somebody's a groomer? And
I would like to hear her perspective on grooming and
how it relates to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Please welcome Melissa. Right, Hi, Melissa, how are you?
Speaker 3 (01:30):
I am so good, Thank you so much for having
me and I just feel it's so wild talking to
you in person. So it's just good to see your
face and it's good to hear her.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah. I know we connected on Instagram recently because I
listened to Jamie Oliver's podcast and you were on there
as a guest, and you were talking about abuse, and
that's one of the topics that it's a heavy thing
to talk about, and I really admire the way that
you're able to take on those tough conversations in a
(02:02):
way that's productive.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
I appreciate that. That's kind of what my whole thing is.
And you know, because I'm like, well, let's make something
good out of something that can be really toxic. So
that's my goal and I'm I'm just really excited to
do that here with you again.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
And since you are a therapist, you are specialized in
all of this stuff and know all of the terms.
And I noticed on your Instagram you posted something on
the topic of grooming because that came up on Banderpump Rules,
So I was hoping you could help us define what
(02:41):
grooming is.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Sure, it's a little bit complex, there's a lot to it,
but so grooming is really manipulative behaviors that an abuser
uses to gain access to a potential victim, to coerce
them to agree to certain things, and to reduce the
risk of being caught. So it's kind of an amalgamation
(03:06):
of a lot of really complex behaviors, but the goal
is always manipulation, control, coercive control, and things like that.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
What are some signs of grooming?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Well, And one thing I do want to say too,
because this is a common misconception, is that adults can
be groomed. I think, you know, one of the things
that makes me frustrated is folks think that it can
only be children or teenagers, but adults can very much
be groomed as well. So I wanted to make sure
I added that.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
It's such a controversial topic.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
I feel like because people get very I don't know,
like they're like, no, that's not grooming. This person's an adult.
They can't be groomed, so it doesn't qualify. So what
would the qualification be for an adult to be groomed
with them?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
You know? The broncadgrous is just that people who are vulnerable, right,
so marginalized groups, people with mental health issues, people who
are struggling in that way. You know, sometimes we are
more susceptible as adults to this sort of stuff than
many people would like to admit. And for me, it
(04:20):
does go into a little bit of victim shaming and
victim blaming, right, which our society does love to do,
as you have found out. So I think that a
it's a mix of people have a hard time reconciling
in their brain how that could happen as an adult.
But you know, when you're struggling, as you know, with depression, anxiety,
(04:43):
post traumatic stress disorder, all of these things, there's no
age limit to it. And I think there's the shaming
of well, someone should know better, and it's like, but
sometimes we don't for a multitude of reasons.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
My understanding of what grooming is, I guess, is like
this person wants something out of you, and it's like
a gradual easing into this thing where it's so subtle
that you almost don't notice that it's happening. I guess,
(05:22):
like pushing boundaries.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
That's exactly right. I call it. I have a term
for it. I call it boundary stretching. Okay, so what
that means to me is, you know, when you put
on a pair of pants and they're a little tight,
and you just give them a little good old stretch
and they, you know, they'll fitch you eventually. People you know,
I'm joking, of course, that's a silly example. But people
who are good at this are good at boundary stretching.
(05:48):
It doesn't feel so they do things where it doesn't
feel like a blatant boundary violation, but it is at
the very edge of your boundaries, and so it stretches,
and it stretches, and it stretches, and known what starts
to happen is that we now are engaging in behaviors
that do violate our boundaries. But it creates what I
(06:10):
call a cognitive dissonance, which is a belief that well, wait,
I've been participating in this, so this can't be that bad,
this can't right. And then also the perpetrator, they use
a lot of gas lighting to support the boundary stretching, right,
they might deny, well, that's not what I'm doing. So
(06:32):
I believe that we in our gut know when something
feels right or doesn't. And so my best feedback with
that is just to listen to your gut, because you know,
and I'm sure you've experienced this too, right, where things
happen that in your gut you just did not feel
really comfortable with. But it's how this slow, incremental boundary
(06:54):
stretching really is a huge tactic.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
As you're describing this, I'm just thinking back to the
situation with Tom and I and like how that came
to be because on the episode, Laala hold Tom that
he's a groomer.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
And as I'm thinking.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Back to that, like the whole like first kiss that
happened in the pool at Tom and Ariana's house, I
know that it wasn't just like a flip, you know,
like there were steps that were taken to get to
that point. And as I look back, I'm starting to
(07:34):
recognize what those little things were that made me feel
comfortable enough to go there right right.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
And so what you're saying is exactly you know what
I'm talking about, where it's it's small and incremental and
it happens over time. So yes, that experience makes makes
sense to me.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
The thing that Lala was pointing out to Tom was
when she heard me say I'm isolated and I don't
have anyone else and I need to fall in line
with Tom otherwise like I won't have anybody. I think
from the point that we kissed to the point where
I broke down on camera my final interview, there was
(08:22):
a lot of isolation along the way because we were
keeping this secret and I wasn't allowed to tell my friends,
but he was allowed to tell certain friends, and so
when I did hang out with my friends, it is like, oh,
what are you up to? And I had to come
up with something because I couldn't tell them what I
was actually doing, which furthered me from them and made
(08:47):
me closer to Tom, because I felt like we had
a connection, like something to talk, you know, like some
substance to talk about. So I just wanted to point
that out that, like I think isolation it's probably a
key factor in the grooming process.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
It is, and I'm happy to speak to some of
the signs. One thing I do just want to say,
you know, I want to be really cautious as a therapist.
You know, I don't know Tom. I'm certainly not saying
that he is a growth you know. I so I
want to help educate, right, and I want to help
validate And it sounds like, you know, that makes sense
(09:25):
to you. So I just want to be real cautious,
you know, because I'm not your therapist. I don't know you,
I don't know him, you know, I just wanted it
to put that out there. But there's kind of some
benchmark warning signs of grooming, and one of them is isolation,
because it's an attempt to control the narrative. If we're
(09:45):
separating somebody from their loved ones or their friends. You know,
like you said, you weren't you didn't really have anybody
to talk to. Well, there's a functionality in that, which
is that you're then more susceptible to certain behavior, right
because if you're alone with it and you're experiencing it
(10:09):
and you have no one to kind of talk to
or to say, hey, Rachel, I'm noticing this or I'm
seeing that. You know, have you thought about this? It
makes us look at things differently, and so that's definitely
one huge piece of it. A couple of other pieces
are Secrets are huge. You know. There's a saying. I
used to work at an impatient residential treatment facility for
(10:31):
drugs and alcohol, and there's one of the sayings is
that secrets keep us sick. And I'm sure that that's
something that you've learned as Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Yeah, that was definitely something that clicked in my mind.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
I'm like, oh, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
I've been keeping secrets for a long time and it's
it's made me sick.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, truly.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
And again that's that's the incremental boundary stretching too, right,
because it's like, well, if you're going to keep a
small secret, then people know that you're going to keep
a bigger secret. And so you know what I always
tell people when it comes to grooming or whatever it
may be, someone who truly loves you is never going
to ask you to keep their secrets. Never.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Never.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
It's just it's a huge red flag. So you know,
to hopefully validate your experience and a lot of other
folks as well.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that with my therapist right now,
we've been she's like, you need to protect yourself, and
we've been really examining what are red flags so that
I'm able to spot them and be like, oh, that's
a red flag and then you know, take the appropriate
action to make sure you're being protected. And as I'm
(11:48):
watching vander Pump Rules, I see it through a whole
different lens. Now I'm like, wow, that's a red flag,
and I could only imagine, like eventually, I feel like
I will go back and watch season eight when I
was in that relationship with James, because I think it'll
(12:09):
be I don't know, I feel like it'll be a
therapeutic experience, just to kind of see it through a
more mature lens.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Well, you know, one thing I give you a ton
of credit for is that you are so willing to
take a step back to look at your stuff. And
so what you're talking about is looking through things with
a more therapeutic lens, whereas before you were looking through
it with a more a more painful, more you know,
(12:43):
coming from a place of depression, anxiety, and the things
that you've talked about, right, those lenses, they do inform
our perspective. So and I also I give you a
lot of credit for a working with your therapist. But
b I do think that's so smart too. Only do
it when you're ready, because you know, the one thing
for me with my podcast is I do a lot
(13:05):
of trigger warnings because trauma survivors, you know, we appreciate it,
and we we have to be ready to take the
information in that we're watching. And so you know, I
think that you know, you had talked about I listened
to some of your other podcasts and you had talked about,
you know, Bravo putting some resources at the end about
suicide prevention and things like that. But also what frustrates
(13:29):
me is that there's no trigger warning at the beginning.
If there were trigger warnings for every really concerning scene,
we may not have our beloved Bravo shows, right. So,
you know, I do think that is a very wise
point of view to really listen to yourself and do
(13:49):
it when you're ready and not a minute sooner. And
if ever, right, you may not that may be something
that you choose not to do, and that's okay too.
So a couple other things that I wanted to know
that our warning signs is there, and I feel like
I've heard you talk about this a little bit, a
desensitization to touch and discussion of sexual topics m so.
(14:13):
And again this is not just with kids and teenagers,
this is with adults too. And there's again that boundary stretching.
There's you know, it canst start out as a little
back touch or a little you know, hip rub or
whatever it is, and then it's like slowly and slowly
and slowly right that it seems like.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's like that didn't mean anything.
It was just like a maybe an accident or like oh,
we just bumped into each other, or oh like oh man,
I just flashed back. And I think of like the
boundary stretching that was happening, where you know, all three
of us were in the same environment and he would
(14:58):
almost push Ariana's boundaries when he would touch me a
certain way or like massage my feet in front of her,
and then but like act like it was completely normal.
So then for me it was like, well, it feels
like it's okay. And then you know, Ariana is not
(15:20):
saying anything. But I'm you know, thinking back, I'm sure
she was uncomfortable with it, but maybe he didn't want
to say anything in front of him. I just feel
like he was pushing both of our boundaries.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Sure, sure, And I mean I encourage you to listen
to your gut with that, because how you're explaining this is,
you know, in theory. Really what I'm talking about that,
I'm talking about the theory and you're talking about the
actual reality of that. So yeah, that makes a lot
of sense. And I think that in that same vein
of what you just said, the biggest thing is that
(15:59):
folks who engage this behavior really make it seem natural
and appropriate to avoid raising suspicion. So that is one
of the parts of it that it's like again with
(16:19):
a boundary stretching, there's just a normalization that in my
opinion in what I've seen in my clinical practice, is
it kind of escalates again because you know, they they
don't want to seem suspicious, or they don't want to
seem out of pocket, or you know, whatever you want
to call it. So you know that that's definitely a
(16:40):
huge part of it. And then in all of this,
right are things like love bombing. There's love bombing and
keeping secrets, and with all this there's a a discussion
of inappropriate sexual topics that maybe you normally wouldn't feel
comfortable with but are being kind of like it like
(17:05):
it's exposure therapy almost so in therapy, one of the
things that we do to treat traumas called exposure therapy,
but there's also these like little exposures to things that
prime us neurologically or neuropathways for accepting certain behaviors, and
(17:25):
so in the moment, you know, as you're listening to
me say this and people are listening to this, if
something is clicking to you or you're thinking back to something,
you got to trust that gut. You got to trust
your gut instinct because nobody knows what's better for you
than you.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Nobody.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
I believe that wholeheartedly. Like as a therapist, I'm a guide.
I'm a guide to help people save their own lives.
And it's a pleasure and it's an honor. But you
really do all the work.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
That's why I get annoyed when people tell me that
I should have done this, could have just done this,
and then do this, you know, especially with like coming
back to do the show, Like, oh, if you're talking
about it so much, why don't you just go back
to Vanderpump rules. You should have done that, you know, right,
And I'm like, I'm pretty sure I know what's best
(18:16):
for me.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Right and so, but that's my message to you and
people listening, like people who have been gas lit or
what have you, is that you're really doing the work.
And I think that for so long, in my estimation,
you really didn't have a voice, so to use your
voice is honestly so important because it's not only helps you,
(18:42):
but it also does help other people. You know, in
the program we talk about sharing your experience, strength, and
hope with others is invaluable not only for your growth
but also for your healing. Because true, I give you
a ton of credit for not going back to vander
pump Roles, because I think that everyone's going to have
(19:05):
an opinion about what you do. But at the end
of the day, we have to put our head on
the pillow and go to sleep and know that we
did write by us.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Okay, I wanted to ask you, like just straight up,
when you were watching vander pump Roles, when you heard
Lalla accusing Tom stand of all of grooming, what was
your immediate reaction?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
What was your immediate.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Well, so, like I said, I can't you know, I'm
not I'm watching observable behavior on TV right. I don't
know Tom, I don't know La La, I don't know
any of you. I have to be mindful of how
I get my feedback on this, But my immediate thought
is that Lala made some very important points that are
(20:11):
kind of in line with what we're talking about, right,
Like I'm never going to label Tom X, Y or Z.
But if we're looking at the behaviors and you know
what Laala is noticing and the isolation and all of that,
I mean, I think that that that's valid. That's valid.
(20:32):
We can't do revisionist history and say that it's not valid.
One behavior, one thing doesn't make anyone a label, right,
A groomer or narcissist, right that people like to throw
that around a lot. And you know, on that note,
what I'll say is too we all have narcissistic tendencies,
myself included, you know, And so I think that clinically,
(20:54):
how I look at things is there's a spectrum of behavior, right,
so when we start seeing behavior, we look at it
on the spectrum and then you know, behaviors add up
to more, you know, problematic issues and can lead to
personality issues and things like that. So where he lies
on that that I can't speak to. But my immediate
(21:15):
reaction was one of concern.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, thank you for answering that.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
You know, I don't want to label Tom anything either,
And I know I've called him a NARS system in
the past, and maybe I shouldn't have done that, But
you know, you start seeing these patterns and these types
of behavior, and there are terms that psychologists use to
(21:39):
explain this behavior because once you're able to pick up
on it, it becomes predictable's and yeah, so it's it's
like the terminology is used as a tool, not as
an insult to somebody.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
And let me be clear, Rachel, that's your experience. You're
allowed to say whatever you want. Let me be super clear. Okay,
you are allowed. You're the one who experienced it, and
so I'm not here to tell you that you can't
say or do certain things. For me, the difference is,
as a therapist and I have the credentials to be
able to diagnose, I have to be mindful about how
(22:19):
I say.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
If I'm going to be completely honest, I do feel
like I have been groomed because I was in a
very vulnerable state of mind and I just got out
of a relationship that I feel like was.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Very destructive to my well being.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
He witnessed that whole thing play out, and I think
things started shifting when we went to Coachella and he
really went out of his way to hater to me.
And he process through this with my therapist and he
(23:03):
even had these like non nicotine cigarettes that he would
light for me and we would smoke it together. And
now thinking back on it, like did he bring those
just for me or did he bring those for people
that didn't smoke cigarettes that he wanted to smoke with them.
(23:28):
And then my therapist also mentioned that smoking is a
very intimate type of activity because normally you like socialize
and separate from the group to go smoke. So that
was like the first thing that I can really label
as I think that was grooming.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Sure, And you know, I again respect how you feel. Sincerely,
nobody can tell you how you feel. And I'm just
honored to, you know, be here to process this with you,
to talk about this with you. And I'm also grateful
that you you have a therapist to process this with
(24:11):
because as you're experiencing it is such a mind jumble.
When you're sifting through all of this, right, memories pop
up and things pop up that you never thought about
twice And so you know what I will say is
when we start to heal, everything about us heals and
(24:32):
our perspective shifts and we see things in a different light.
And so I give you a lot of credit for
doing that hard work, and I hear you.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I hear you, what are the ways to identify a
grooming dynamic and a relationship? And once you're able to
identify it, how do you leave? Oh?
Speaker 3 (24:53):
That's those are good questions. How you identify it is Honestly,
I would say if you have a guide, So whether
you know there's some people who either don't believe in
therapy or don't have access to it. Right, I'm not
going to pretend that therapy is accessible to everybody. It
should be, but it may not be. So I think
the first step is trying to discuss it with a
(25:15):
a helpful advocate, a guide, someone who has your best
interest truly in mind. Right, So for me, a therapist,
I feel like is a great adoption if you have one,
But if not, it may be doing some research on
your own, contacting the victim's advocate. You know, the RAIN
has so many good resources for folks. They have online
(25:37):
chats and they have phone numbers. So I think that
the first step is if you're feeling something isn't right,
listening to that. That's step one. Step two is finding
a safe space, a guide, an advocate, a therapist, someone
that can help you you know groups, domestic violence groups,
or you know, just a trusted person that but you
(26:00):
know they have your back and they're not going to
weaponize anything or try to skew anything. And then I think,
truly the answer is processing, right because for you, and
I'm not sure if you can speak to this, but
when you're in therapy, you process things in such a
way that you cannot do alone. And I'm gonna say
(26:21):
myself included, right, I'm a therapist, but I have my
own therapist because you know, I think we all need
help seeing the forest for the tree sometimes. So again,
to summarize, it's talking about it self, assessing, really figuring out,
touching base with ourselves because I think the one thing
that a lot of women especially don't do. We love
(26:45):
to gaslight ourselves. I mean society loves to do it too,
but we love to gaslight ourselves in terms of being
like maybe I was being, you know, too judgmental. We
love to do that, and it's like, ladies, let's just stop.
Let's just stop the madness and trust yourself enough to
know that if your gut's telling you something isn't right,
(27:06):
you know that's really worth taking a.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Look at great answer. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
I think it's so helpful to know that there's resources
out there for you and there's ways to get help
even if you can't afford a therapist.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Rain dot org specifically, I just wanted to make sure
people listening to this are getting good resources. So Rain
dot org, r ai n N dot org is a
great resource they had. There's the National Sexual Assault Hotline
eight hundred sixty five six hope. You can also chat
online at online dot rain dot org. It's free, confidential
(27:42):
twenty four to seven. So you know, doing a quick
Google search if you're looking for specific resources, you know,
thankfully the Internet is a beautiful thing and it does
help us get connected to those resources if therapy isn't accessible.
One other thing I want to say too, I really
recommend it's called psychologytoday dot com and it's a website
(28:05):
where I kind of joke it's like Tender for therapists,
but without the sex part. It's like, so you can
look through profiles and you can look at pictures, and
you can look at what do they specialize, and you
can search by insurance information and all that and all
that stuff, because choosing a therapist is also really hard
and really daunting, right, So that's usually a good resource
(28:28):
that I like to recommend for people too.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
I know a lot of people are going to critique,
you know, this discussion about grooming because I'm I was
a twenty eight year old now twenty nine year old
woman who should know better and can make my own decisions.
I'm a grown adult that grooming doesn't happen to these people.
(29:02):
But I just wanted to say, like, I was in
a very very vulnerable place, and this is not an
excuse by any means. This is just like my experience
and my learning process through what I went through, and
I knew that it was unhealthy. But the consistent like
(29:24):
text messages, face times, insisting that we FaceTime, you know,
not letting me sleep. He was even attempting to turn
me against my family and saying, my family isn't caring
for my well being. They just you know, they have
ulterior motives and would refuse for me to like have
even the full forty eight hours to myself with an issue.
(29:48):
So I think it gets to a point where, you know,
it may start out as just like little teeny things,
and then it turns into something more, until it's like
something very controlling and powerful, and when you're in it,
(30:10):
it gets so consuming where it almost feels normal, Like
it felt normal to FaceTime him every single day. It
wasn't until I really took that time away and checked
myself into an impatient treatment facility and started really focusing
on the work and limiting my time talking to him
(30:34):
so I could like think for myself, Yeah, it really
is hard to see it when you're in it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
I think that your point is so important that we
need time and space to get perspective. I would say
most of the time in relationships, because you know, I
kind of use this analogy of you know, sometimes we
lie in a pile of our own garbage and we're
just to it. You know, it smells, but it's warm,
(31:03):
and it's like shaped to our body, and you're like, ooh,
this feels normal. But then you get out of it,
like someone reaches in their hand and they grab you out,
and you look back and you're like, girl, how did
I do that? You know? So I think your point
it's so valid that we do need time and space
a way to really get full perspective. Number one. But
(31:23):
number two, something else I would like to say from
a neurological standpoint is that our brains do not fully
develop until the age of twenty five. The last part
of our brain to develop are the prefrontal cortexes, and
that controls impulses. Okay, so I think that, you know,
(31:46):
I don't want to get on my soapbox, but I
think that societally there's a lot of judgment about well,
if you're in your twenties, you're a full blown adult,
your brain would beg to differ. Okay, so I think
that you know, when you're in your twenties, you're still young.
There is this weird tocidal expectation that the day that
(32:08):
you turn eighteen, you're supposed to all of a sudden
be an adult and responsible for everything. And that's a
just not true, but b the thing that I appreciate
most about you, which is something that a lot of
folks cannot do. You'll say, yeah, you know, I know
I'm going to get backlash for this. I know that
I was twenty nine, and I know that I'm you know,
(32:30):
a grown woman, and you take accountability for that, right,
and that is all that we can do as humans.
All we can do is say, wow, this behavior was
not characteristic of me, and this was not the person
that I'd like to be. So let me actually take
a look, get time and space, get some help, and
(32:50):
work on changing that. I'm my goodness, isn't that what
you are doing? But people, you know, you certainly cannot
please everybody, and people, oh are going to be critical
and judgmental and just mean. So I think that your
healing is yours and yours alone, and you have to
(33:12):
do things the way that make the most sense to
you for lasting change. Because truly, you know, there's a
saying in the field that past behavior is the best
predictor of future behavior. Right, I'm sure you've heard that
many times before.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I haven't heard that, but it makes complete sense. Yeah,
and I'm noticing, like, okay, people have patterns, like it's
a pattern. It's not going to stop unless they really
want to change.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yes, And so what I'll say on that is that
while that is the case, I believe that anybody is
capable of change only if they are motivated to do
so period. You know, So when you're ready, when you're motivated,
when you have a good team, you're unstoppable. There's nothing
(34:04):
that can stop you. So you are actively intervening on
your own behavior to say, you know what, I know
that I didn't like this, that I did this, and
I'm owning it, and I'm going to look at this
and I'm going to continue to make sure that I
don't ever go back to that pile of garbage. And
I don't mean Tom, to be clear, I just mean
(34:25):
write your own pile, Rachel's pile, right, like, yes, that
that garbage pile. She's gone, and so you know, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, and it's so true because it could you know,
like we're not just talking about Tom here, like you
will attract the type of person that you let into
your life, you know, your own worthiness, and it would
just repeat until I learned my lesson.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
That's right. And I'll say, you know, I I had
a lot of situations growing up that were really hard
for me, and I dated only narcissists until I did
the work. Then you know, I did the work and
I met my beautiful husband. We've been together for twenty
two years and I'm so grateful. But yeah, our our
(35:15):
trauma in our life informs who we pick. You know,
you've heard the term that people have a bad picker. Well,
that's not like a character defect. It's like we sometimes
we have a bad picker because of our own stuff, right,
if we don't feel that we're worthy, if we don't
feel that we're important and deserve good things. So all
(35:36):
of that is impactful when you're picking a partner. And
what I think is beautiful with you is that doing
the work you're doing will ensure that the next partner
that you pick will really be good for you and
will really be true partnership. And you know, so look
forward to that. I promise it will happen, It'll come. Yeah, yeah,
(36:00):
it'll be a much different experience. I have a feeling,
but I'm not not quite.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Ready yet to date.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
But eventually, when I get there, I know that it'll
be a much healthier relationship, just because I'm taking care
of myself now and like you know, I'm prioritizing my
mental wellbeing, and so I'll attract somebody who you know,
(36:28):
hopefully is working on themselves and like taking care of
their own wellbeing, because if they're not, then I'm going
to recognize it as a red flag.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Yeah, yeah, and as you should. I mean, all we
can do is from these experiences, all we can do
is grow.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
So much for joining us. Melissa.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
You can check her out on Instagram at your bish
Therapist and she also has a podcast channel, Your bish Therapist,
and she's incredible on there. Just like the d I
listened to your Paris Hilton's dissecting her documentary and her
interactions with her family members, and I thought it was
(37:09):
very insightful, So definitely go give her a follow.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Thank you so much, Rachel. I appreciate you having me
and I'm so happy to have met you. I'm so
happy to have this conversation and I'm just grateful, so
thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Thank you so much for listening to Rachel Goes Rogue.
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