March 25, 2024 • 42 mins
Scandoval is and was a big hot mess.
Now, some people are feeling the pressure to forgive others. But, is that really necessary?
Rachel admits that she may not deserve forgiveness.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Rachel gos Rogue.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Rachel Goes Rope.
I'm your host, Rachel Savannah Levis. Today we will be
talking about forgiveness. This is a theme that keeps reappearing
on vander pump Roles, and it's something that I've been
working through in my personal life. I think that forgiveness
(00:31):
is simple yet complicated, and it took me a while
to be willing to forgive myself. I've noticed on this
season of vander Pump Roles a lot of the cast
members will be asking another person for forgiveness or saying like, oh,
(00:51):
I'm still waiting for an apology from this person. So
I think that dynamic is interesting, Like is forgiveness something
you can just ask for from somebody else? What if
somebody did cross a serious boundary and you're not willing
to forgive them, then what happens?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I have a guest.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Her name is doctor Pia and you may know her
from Lifetimes Married at First Sight. Doctor Pia is a
psychotherapist who specializes in working through relationship issues. Welcome doctor Pia.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Hello Rachel, nice to meet you.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Today We're going to be talking about forgiveness, and I
feel like it's a complex process. It seems simple, but
I think that maybe you could give us some more
clarity on what forgiveness really is and we can dive
into some of these questions.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Sure, okay, Well, first of all, thank you for having me.
I'm excited and happy to be here. And yes, forgiveness
is totally conflex I think, first and foremost, a lot
of people perhaps have a negative reaction to forgiving someone
because there's this idea that that means we're now like
justifying whatever that behavior was, or whatever their actions were,
(02:07):
or perhaps maybe it's a character trait or a personality trait.
But the reality is that forgiveness is truly for ourselves,
for us to be able to have our own peace,
because if we're holding on to something, well, now this
is coloring our mood and how we show up in
the world. So I think that the first thing that
we must do is recognize that we are forgiving for
(02:28):
our own gain and for our own benefit and not
necessarily for that other person. And it does not have
a mutually exclusive because perhaps when you do forgive, now
you've minded a relationship with someone else, or it does
benefit the dynamics, though. Number one priority is to have
a better overall mental state for yourself.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Definitely. I've seen people hold grudges in the past, and
I've just seen how that eats away at them. And
when I, I don't know, just growing up and stuff,
I decided that I don't want to be like that,
and I want to be able to forgive somebody if
(03:07):
they've done something wrong and they seem to be remorseful.
But then I feel like maybe some people have taken
advantage of that because I do have that empathy. So
what would your advice be to somebody who is more
empathetic and does forgive more easily.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Yeah, so, I mean you're bringing up a great point
of you don't want it to be that. Now, this
is like a manipulation tactic of oh, I know that
I can always do whatever, and Rachel's just going to
forgive me because that speaks to a larger issue. Perhaps
the antidote to that is then boundary setting. That's then
data for you of Wow, Okay, I keep forgiving this person,
(03:51):
they keep taking advantage of they keep doing the same thing.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Well, what are you.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Really forgiving then, or what are they truly apologizing? For
if they're doing the same behavior. So that's the situation
where you can put the boundary in place of well,
I'm forgiving them for my own sake, though I recognize
that they're going to continue in this pattern and this behavior,
and perhaps now I need to have a boundary up
where maybe our relationship looks different, maybe our relationship has
to end, but that boundary has to be put in place,
(04:17):
because now it's no longer I'm giving this person grace
because they always make mistakes, or we all make mistakes
as humans. Rather and more so, they're doing this because
they know that I will still be around.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Definitely, what happens if somebody forgives someone before they're really ready,
Like if somebody was very quick to be like, oh
that's okay, but deep down they weren't quite ready or
didn't process through that.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, I think that that's a sign that we're not
listening to our gut or our intuition, right. And sometimes
we have the personality styles where we don't want to
have any kind of conflict with people, so we just
it kind of like is like you know, word vombit. Oh,
I'm sorry, it's okay, don't worry about it, right, It
just immediately comes out without even processing or thinking, because
I don't want to have any beef with this person,
(05:10):
or you know, I don't want to be considered like
conflict or dramatic, so I'm just saying it to say it, essentially,
kind of like the people who just apologize before they
even realize what they're apologizing for. You're just saying it
to say it, and that sets you up for failure
in your relationships, because if you don't really know why
you're forgiving someone, you might not actually be in a
(05:31):
place where you are truly forgiving them, right, because maybe
you say I forgive you, but it comes up again
later on in a conversation, or perhaps you start treating
them differently and maybe they're on the other and like
I thought we got over this like three months ago,
Why is this now coming up again? Right? Because you
weren't explicit in whatever that forgiveness is, or perhaps you
(05:51):
weren't truly embodying forgiveness, because again, going back to that
original point of the forgiveness is supposed to come first
for yourself and then secondary or if at all, for
the other person. So if you say the words too quickly,
you're you're not giving yourself the benefit of the doubt.
You're not giving yourself the opportunity to really examine what's
(06:13):
most important to you and why you want to move
forward with that person or not. So I think it
takes time to reflect, and you know that is difficult
to do because in the situation, you might be thinking, Okay, well,
then what do I say? You can say, you know,
I need some time to think about this. I need
some time to think about this, like I want us
to be good or I want things to be okay,
(06:35):
but I really just this is a lot to process
at once, and I just need some time.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yeah, that's a good point. I feel like that could
lend to people bringing up the past and holding it
over your head. And I've seen this multiple times on
this season of vander Pump Rules. For instance, Tom brought
up James's past with Kristen and that relationship and how
it unfolded. I think it would kind of circle back
(07:00):
to what we were talking about with resentment. What happens
when someone harbors resentment and how do you navigate somebody
who claims to forgive but brings up the past as
an attack.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Well, then that would be us telling them, well, you
haven't truly forgiven, right, because I think that goes back
to your forgiving for yourself. So when you're forgiving for yourself,
you're recognizing I'm letting go of whatever this issue was
because it doesn't serve me to hold on to this,
whether this person continues in that behavior or doesn't. I'm
making the choice to forgive so that I can go
(07:35):
on about my life. When you're bringing up the piece
of resentment and the other examples you were giving, the
word that comes to mind for me is like the
pop psychology word of weaponizing that person is now like
weaponizing that information. Well, you said you forgave or you
know this happened in your past, and people are bringing
it up in the inopportune moments, not in a way
to be productive or move the conversation forward, but more
(07:56):
so to like hold something over your head, to like
one up you. Right. And so this is to me
sounds like power dynamics, And that's part of where resentment
holds too. Of Do you feel as though that person
is having some sort of power over you, That's why
there's resentment. Right, you want an apology or you want
some sort of different changed behavior from that other person.
(08:17):
That's why you're holding onto resentment. You feel so very
wronged and we're personalizing it in that moment. Then, right,
rather than saying, okay, that is about them. They made
those choices because of who they are. They use those
words because of who they are. It doesn't matter if
it was me, if it was you, if it was
Tom to Carry Sally, Jane, whomever. Right, that's about them.
(08:38):
So that's why I say that forgiveness must come from
within first, because it's not going to matter how that
other person is behaving going forward. And that's how you
can ward against resentment is if you're truly recognizing I
forget them because I don't want to hold any grudges.
I don't want to hold resentment. I don't want this
to continue to live in my head. Rent free. I've
got things to do, right, So I'm doing this that
(09:01):
I can move forward. And then it also has to
come with that secondary piece of now setting boundaries, because
if you forgive, even if it's for yourself, but you're
still maintaining the same type of relationship with that person
and you continue to see them engaging in the same
type of behaviors. Well, then it doesn't make sense to
continue to forgive because you're not able to truly forgive
because it's the same thing happening again. But the hard
(09:23):
part in that is setting that hard boundary to change
the relationship dynamics. And so whether it's boundary setting, whether
it's overcoming resentment, whether it's just forgiveness, it's hard because
the work falls on us, even though at face value
it looks like the work should be on the other person, right,
like they're the ones who wronged this, They're supposed to apologize,
they're supposed to make it better, and when in reality,
(09:45):
we have no control over other people. We just have
the control over ourselves.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yes, it took me a while to forgive myself because
I was beating myself up and you know, thinking like
how could I, how could I put myself in this position?
Like why did I do this? Look at what it's created,
and just kind of like getting into a dark place
about it. And the more I learned about why I
(10:11):
was choosing these behaviors and making these decisions and understanding
like more of my subconscious programming, I was able to
forgive myself for my actions and I feel like there
was a huge accountability piece where I kept telling my
therapist I want to take accountability. I want to take accountability,
(10:35):
and ultimately she was like, accountability for you, Rachel, looks
like protecting yourself. But ultimately I am able to forgive myself.
And I just rewatched Bethany Frankels podcast that I was
a guest on, and she asked me point blank, do
you forgive yourself? And I said yes, and I was
(10:58):
like very It was like one of those moments like
looking back at your past self, even if it was
only like six months ago, and being like yes, yes,
like a proud moment.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah that's great, you know, because a lot of times
we're holding ourselves to an unrealistic standard, and so there
can be this fine line between I want to take
accountability and also like, let me be real with myself,
like perhaps I was behaving this way because of environmental factors, right,
so part of my growth then, or like to your therapist, point,
(11:29):
part of your protection might be I need to remove
myself from environments where I behave this way because we're
all human. I don't care how many books you've read.
I don't care how many degrees we've got. I don't
care how many hours of therapy, what medications were on.
Our environment is going to impact us. Right, if you
poke a bear only but so many times, eventually they're
going to attack, right, and so we're not. If we
(11:51):
learn more about ourselves, we can learn Okay, when I'm
around these type of environments, When I'm around these type
of folks, I behave in a way that doesn't feel
good to myself, or it becomes too intolerable for me
to try to withstand engaging in these environments. It's hard
for us to you know, be the mother Teresa, so
(12:12):
to speak, in in unflattering circumstances, or in unhealthy circumstances,
or in you know, dere it be abusive circumstances. But
when I hear you say the piece of the work
that you did to forgive yourself, that also helps not
only you, but it helps you to be able to
forgive others because you're recognizing the important piece of grace
(12:32):
right that you know, we don't have necessarily be bad people.
Sometimes we can do bad things right so that it's
no longer just like an attack on someone's character or personality,
but it's like someone had a bad day, they did
something just like you've had a bad day. I've had
a bad day. And so we learned to forgive ourselves
because of those isolated incidents or if we're able to
think about the environment. But there is an important piece
(12:53):
of part of forgiveness does absolutely include accountability, which is
therefore like naming and taking ownership over whatever the thing was.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, I'm just thinking back to the moment for me
at the Meadows because it took me a while to
process Tom recording me without me knowing, and it was
so chaotic that I didn't have like that ability to
process what just happened. It was like survival mode. And
(13:24):
it wasn't until I had my one on one trauma
therapy sessions in the Meadows that I was able to
really start be compressing what he did and how he
violated a personal boundary. And I remember telling him on
the phone like after processing it, like I don't think
(13:47):
that I will be able to forgive you for this.
And then you know, a week later, he's like trying
to get me to hire his lawyer and fire my lawyer,
and he like had a flip up and he said,
the last thing that we need you to do right
now is to go rogue. And so I, you know,
(14:08):
I process that in itself. I did art therapy and
I painted out that in conversation, and I had this
fantasy of calling him and being like I've gone rogue
and just hang up the phone and kind of like
do that power move.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
And my therapist is like, well, well, we're not going
to do that.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
But I guess my question is is it okay not
to forgive somebody?
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Hmm? I think that that's a tricky question because again,
how can I put it. There's a great book called
Radical Forgiveness, and it's much like radical acceptance. If people
are familiar with that concept of we don't have to
like it, we don't have to agree with it, but
we are accepting that it is reality. Same thing with forgiveness.
(14:54):
We don't have to condone the person's behavior. We don't
have to like that though for our own sanity. I
am a believer that we must forgive again for ourselves,
not for that person. This comes up a lot for
me as a psychologist. I deal with a lot of
women who have experienced sexual assault, sexual trauma like developmental
(15:15):
chronic sexual trauma from childhood on and to be able
to say, how in the world could I forgive my perpetrator?
Like that makes no sense, doctor peer like that, like, no,
I don't forgive them if we can look to that
person as a human if there is something going on
with them. Clearly, if someone is doing something so egregious,
(15:37):
that is not about us. That's about something that is
going on within them, whatever that may be mental health issues,
family of origin issues, a combination of all of those things,
whatever the case may be. It's about what their experience
has been. And the more that we hold on to
not forgiving them, the more that trauma that hurts stays
(16:00):
within us. The other piece about that is forgiveness doesn't
mean you have to call that person up and say, hey,
I forgive you, or you don't have to write them
a letter and say hey, that could be your own
conversation with yourself. That person doesn't even have to ever
know that you've forgiven them. But it's more so a
piece of I'm not letting that thing have any bearing
on me. So for you, right the you went rogue,
(16:23):
is you no longer allowing that to live in your head?
Right Like being recorded in most states against your will
is actually illegal, not only just like a bad thing
or a violation of privacy. Right, there's nothing that you
did to cause that. And so when you can take
yourself out of the scenario and say, okay, that was
about that person, I forgive their actions because for whatever
(16:44):
reason they chose to engage in that behavior. At this
point in time, where they continue to engage in those behaviors,
I forgive them for my own sake and my own wellbeing.
I don't even have to ever tell them that I'm
forgiving them. The forgiveness allows me to take the power
back because when we don't forgive, that other person is
holding power, right because we're thinking about it, we're thinking
(17:06):
about it in some way, even if it's even if
it's about revenge, right, even if it's like I'm gonna
get them back, Well, now, they're holding power over us, right,
And so and that's that's the piece for me where
I say forgiveness is best to happen in all situations.
It doesn't mean that it has to happen immediately. Sometimes
it could take decades for that forgiveness to happen, and
(17:27):
that's okay. So I wouldn't put a time limit on it.
And I wouldn't put any specifications around how that forgiveness
is delivered, if at all.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Something that you said and there you said it was
out of my control. How he took that video without
my consent was out of my control and there was
nothing that I could do in that moment. But then
I also think back, like, well, I shouldn't have been
doing anything with him anyway, So then it's a piece
(17:55):
of like self accountability. And then forgive it myself for
that because then you know, ultimately that's the place where
there's so much shame and guilt and pain obviously with
the violation, but mostly shame, I think because it's one
(18:16):
of those acts that you know, it's a private thing
you don't want people to know about, first of all,
and then second of all, it's just an intimate moment.
So I think, like, what is the what is the
line between forgiveness and accountability?
Speaker 1 (18:33):
M H, Well, it's hard, right because as I'm hearing
you say that back to me, I'm like, goodness, you're
blaming yourself. This is we're playing a blame game, right
of Look, I should have known better or I knew this,
so why did I do that? Oftentimes we're operating based
off the information we have at the time. I don't
know you, I don't know him, I don't know the situation.
(18:54):
I highly doubt that if you knew you were going
to be recorded, you would have consented to it, or
you would have behaved this same way. You didn't know, right,
So that's new information. Even if you know that person
or they've shown you themselves in other scenarios, you didn't
know that that event was going to happen. That was
new information right now. Going forward, if you continue on,
(19:15):
we might say, Okay, well, what made you think that
things would be Differently, we still don't have to blame
ourselves because maybe we've forgiven maybe we think that person's different.
I think it's really hard to kind of continue to
point the finger at ourselves. And there is a fine
line between taking accountability and wanting to be responsible and
do our own self work and also recognizing what is
(19:37):
the behavior of someone else. And so that's why I
say it's important for us to take the time to
self reflective. Do I show up this way all the time?
Am I showing up this way in multiple situations and
with multiple people, but sometimes to your earlier point Rachel level.
People might know that I'm easily to forget, so they
take advantage of that, so they continue to behave in
(19:58):
a certain way where you just got those colored glasses on.
You can't really see it because you're in the moment, right,
But do you behave that way with your best friends,
with your sister, with your mother, with you know, coworkers.
And if the answer is no, that's data, right, that's
data I'm behaving in this way with this particular person.
So perhaps I don't need to take accountability for how
I was behaving in that situation, and more so recognize
(20:19):
this is an unhealthy, perhaps toxic, and unsafe environment for me.
So I need to remove myself rather than focusing on
the forgiveness or rather than focusing on accountability, I need
to remove myself so I can even freaking think clearly.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, yeah, one percent.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
And that's how I'm in the position that I am now.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
So when it comes to other people, you know, being
willing to forgive others and like from the outside looking in, uh,
what is the line between accountability and forgiveness there? Because
I think a lot of people aren't willing to forgive
and people I mean not to always bring it back
(21:12):
to me. But just from drawing from my experience, people are,
you know, saying that I don't deserve forgiveness and I'm
not taking accountability. So I guess what does that look
like for someone to take accountability?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Okay, so perhaps as a matter of a situation where
like two things can be true at the same time. Right,
that someone else might have done something harmful to you
or something that required apology or remorse doesn't also mean
that maybe you didn't do things that would also require
an apology or remorse. So perhaps taking a look at
(21:56):
that situation of are there particular things that I did
to contribute to this experience happening, that's where the accountability
piece would take place, not the I should have what
it could is because we can't change that, right, Like,
that's not helpful, But more so of like the actual
data points, the actual facts of what occurred that everyone
(22:17):
can observe. Okay, what did I do in those moments
that I can take accountability for that I no longer.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Want to do totally.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
I've recognized that I wanted to make a change in
my behavior, and I've done everything in my power to
make that a reality. For me, and so sometimes like
I just need to remind myself to, you know, forgive
the other people that are still holding it over my
head because they're they're not really in my personal life
(22:48):
and they don't really know what I'm doing to take
accountability and what I'm working towards. And then there's also
this piece of like outside influence, like, oh, you need
to apologize for this, Like how would you approach like
(23:09):
comments from the Peanut Gallery on if you need to
forgive somebody or not, or if you should accept somebody's
apology or not. Because right now on the show, Sina
is having a hard time. She's having a hard time
because there's a conflict between the rest of the cast
(23:31):
or the friends not wanting to forgive this person. But
you can tell she's struggling because she does want to
forgive this person, but then she's worried that if she
forgives them, she's gonna hurt somebody one of her friends.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, so this is tricky, and it's layered what you're
talking about, because there's unfortunately such a big difference between
the real world and reality TV. The reality is like
there's cameras there, there's producers around right, there's like things
that got be recorded. But my answer for in the
real world is okay, just like we have to look
to ignore when people are telling us what we should
(24:06):
or shouldn't do, because like they don't have to live
our real lives. I understand that in reality TV when
you're taping something like that may not be a luxury
that you have. So those are two separate pieces. Let
me just focus on the real work part right now.
If other people are telling you, oh, you should forgive,
or you should do that, or you should do this,
context is so important, Like those people aren't living your lives.
They're not there, they don't know what's going on, so
(24:29):
that it's not in our best interest to listen to
the advice of others because one like it could backfire
on us. Two we're not learning how to do that
for ourselves, and then three we now then become dependent
upon someone else to tell us what to do. And
the reality is we're not going to always have someone
present for us at every single moment, and then we
don't know how to behave now right where we're in
(24:52):
a reality TV situation where maybe that's not as easily
accessible to say, like I'm not listening to what these
people have to say. We have to think about, Okay,
how can we be the most true to ourselves? If
maybe I'm told that I should be doing this, let
me try to reflect on, like why I'm being told that,
and like what would be the importance of this, and
(25:12):
do I want to do this or not? Like is
this is this me being true to myself? And is
there a way that I can speak to that in
a way that I'd be proud of because I know
that this is it's gonna be a national television that
I'm gonna have to like think out later on, right,
And so the should I forgive? You know, I think
something could be said to the point of what you
just mentioned of everyone doesn't have all the information you
(25:35):
saw a click snippet of what happened during this you
know event, Right, if somebody, if people are saying Rachel
has done something that's just so unforgivable, they don't know you,
they don't know your story, they don't know what you've
been through, they don't know what was even happening that day.
There's something called dialectical behavioral therapy, and we talk about
chain analysis, right of, Like here's this event that erupts.
(25:56):
But we have to go and look through the chain
of like what happened before where that behavior Okay, to
see like why did this occur? To have better understanding
of that individual and so like that's the piece where
grace comes into place. So when we're thinking about if
we want to forgive, why we want to forgive? Are
we taking accountability? Do we need to take accountability? We
(26:17):
have to also examine the chain of events, which will
then lead us to examining like our own vulnerabilities, right,
thinking about what kind of circumstances Am I very vulnerable too?
Am I highly triggered by then have me behaving in
a way that's like out of character for me? Right?
And thinking about going forward, how can I work with
(26:37):
those triggers? How can I more easily identify what those
triggers are or what my vulnerabilities are. How can I
also communicate those things to other people, trusted people, so
they can know like, Okay, this is a vulnerable space
for me, or this is a trigger for me. If
you see me behaving this way, like this is a
sign that like I'm about to get to that eruption point.
So I need to like exit stage left or like
(26:59):
do some sort of self soothing or whatever the case
may be. But so it really does have to do
with awareness. I think awareness of ourselves and awareness of
our environments.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
I'm glad that you brought up DBT because that is
one of the therapy what is it called, like a
therapy model that I got to explore at the Meadows
And I think important part in that is the yes
and or like two things can be true at the
same time. M hm. So yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Think it's important, absolutely, and that's part of DBT. Then
you understand radical acceptance, right, it's the same thing for
radical forgiveness that it's something that benefits us even if
we don't agree with it. You don't have to agree
with it. It's just the reality.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Okay, So this next question, I guess personally I have
my own thoughts on it. But what would you say
to somebody who wants to control, well debatably, who their
friends hang out with. Like if somebody wronged you so
bad that you were like, no, this is unforgivable, and
(28:08):
you have mutual friends and your friend is like, no,
you you shouldn't be friends with anyone who has done
that to me. For this specific example, it would be
Arianna putting up the boundaries for herself on her friends
that are in this friend group.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Mm hm, So that's tricky. I think that the you know,
part of a human response might be like, well, why
would that person want to be friends with them? They
know what they did to me? Like, this person is
a bad person. Right. We can't control anyone else. We
can only control ourselves, right, And there's something to be
examined of if we're trying to control who our friends
are friends with, because that other friend might be saying
(28:51):
it's horrible what they did to you, and I don't
condone that, and I hate that though two things mutu
at the same time. Right, I don't have that experience
with this person. That person and I get along just fine,
they don't behave in that way, and it doesn't feel
fair for me to now cut off this relationship with
someone who I've had no issues with. So the antidote
to that would be boundary setting. Okay, that's cool, but
(29:13):
guess what, Please don't invite me into shared spaces where
that person's going to be because I am no longer
friends with that person. I don't want to be around them.
Please don't tell me what's going on in their life,
Like I don't want to hear about it. Like, let's
just respect the boundaries that, like me and this person
no longer coexist, so you and I can maintain our friendship.
You and her keep your friendship over there. So that's
the piece of controlling yourself because you can't control the
(29:35):
other person.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Mm, yeah, that makes total sense. Yeah, And I feel
like I've kind of had to deal with some of
that on my own too, because I've hut this person
out of my life as well, and we still have
mutual friends, and I you know, I'm not telling anyone
(29:58):
not to be friends with him, because it's ultimately your
own decision and at your own risk. Like you have
the data points, as you were saying, as to what
this person is capable of and how they've wronged me,
So it's like continue at your own risk. But I
feel like everyone should be able to have their own
(30:22):
autonomy to make that decision for themselves.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Absolutely, And I mean it also doesn't take away the
fact that, like it can suck initially where you're kind
of like, what are friends hanging out with this person?
Didn't I just tell you what this person did. And
so I'm not suggesting that like overnight, you're gonna be like, yes,
you know, they can be friends and I'm over here.
It takes that growth, and it takes some time and
distance away from the situation to be able to maturely say, okay,
(30:48):
you know, engage at your own risk. I'll be over here.
We can give some grace to the fact that there
are some times where you're allowed to be really pissed
about that.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
HM. Is there a grieving process with forgiveness?
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Oh, I would say absolutely, because there's often a loss there, right,
whether that's a loss of how you perceived that person.
It could be you know, a whatever happened. Maybe now
there's a loss of that relationship dynamic, or a loss
of a perception like that image you had of that person,
(31:22):
or maybe a loss of trust now a loss of respect.
And that's truly what grief is about. It's about loss.
And so that's why I say that you know that
forgiveness can take some time because you do have to
mourn whatever that relationship dynamic was or whatever that experience
was to even be able to think clearly. So that's
why to your earlier point of like, what if you
(31:43):
just like quickly say, you know, I forgive you, you
haven't had time to mourn or process or really think
about it.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
I think there's also like that grieving process of this
isn't the person that I thought he was. Like, I
had this idea of who this person was, and he
was somebody that really cared about me and respected me,
and then you know what he did conflicts with that
(32:08):
because he didn't care. You know, he didn't ask for consent,
he didn't care if I didn't want to be recorded,
and he did it anyway. So yeah, that grief of
like and acceptance of like, this person isn't the person
(32:32):
that I thought he was, and I have to accept that.
And if I deny that, then I'm not living in reality.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah. Absolutely, And I think, you know, using the example
of grief, I'm so glad that you added that to this.
We know that grief is not a linear process. I
don't know that forgiveness also could be a linear process, right, Like,
for example, depending on the situation, we might have to
before we can get to that truly, you know, accepting
the reathing process and really sitting with the fact that
(33:02):
this person is not who I thought they were, so
on and so forth. We might have to take action
first before that for safety reasons, right, that boundary might
need to be put up where I'm not around that
person anymore before you can even get to that point
of truly processing and thinking about, oh my gosh, what happened?
What did they do to me? Who was this person?
For safety reasons or even just like for logistical reasons,
but you're absolutely right that that morning process does need
(33:25):
to occur to like have that true radical forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, it was such a process too, because you know,
I was still talking to him when I was in
the meadows, and then I was beginning to process through
this violation, and then you know, I decided for myself
that I'm cutting off all communication and I locked his
number in my phone the day that I got my
phone back leaving treatment. And as I mentioned earlier, I
(33:54):
rewatched the Bethany Frankel interview, and I wasn't very expressive
of how he's wronged me or like certain specifics, like
because I didn't want to throw him under the bus.
And then like time is passing my process more and
now with my podcast, it's like, okay, I'm much more
open with it, and I've been able to process through
(34:14):
that even more so. Yes, just validating that it is
definitely a.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Process, and that process will look different for every person, right,
Like some people might feel like, Okay, if I keep
bringing these things up or getting more information, it's not
healthy for me. Other people feel like, no, I have
to put a name to this, because when we're not
naming something, we're like feeding into it. Right. And I
don't know that there's necessarily a right or wrong. I
think it's specific to that individual and their healing journey.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Does forgiveness look different in love relationships versus friendship?
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Well, I think it depends, right. So, for example, if
we're talking about marriage, that's this like, you know, lifelong
commitment that we've agreed to make with someone where we
have more at stake or more at risk, or a
higher level of commitment right where we've signed up to,
whether it's just legally or whether it's you know, religiously
(35:24):
as well, that we are with this person, you know,
till death do with part minus some sort of egregious
thing that perhaps we're more susceptible to forgive that life partner,
or perhaps we're more susceptible to forgive family members because
these are people that like, yes we can severtise with family,
Yes we can severtize with a spouse. It's just not
(35:44):
as easy right as it might be with a friend.
So I think that that's perhaps part of the nuance
in my opinion. Then if we're married or there's a
family tie, we might be more likely to forgive in
those situations, whereas friendships. Now, some people we've been friends
with for twenty thirty years and only blood would make
us family right, where it's like, yeah, that same thing applies,
(36:07):
versus Okay, this is someone I just met a couple
of weeks ago. Do I want to forgive them and
continue on with the relationship, or do I see that
as a data point of like I don't know about
this person, Like let me just go, you know, remove
myself from them, Like I don't even want to entertain
the idea of maybe they'll be a different person, or
you know, maybe I'm going to give them another chance.
I think that's a personal preference, but I do think
(36:30):
that it could be different in friendship relationships versus a
marital relationship or even someone that you're seriously dating. Or
even cohabitating with, because you get to see more sides
of them. Right like with our friends, we're not getting
to see all sides of one another, and there's not
that higher level of commitment as there might be in
a marriage.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
So what happens when somebody forgives someone before they're actually ready.
Is that where grudges happen.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
I think that's absolutely why grudges happen, or why drama occurs,
because we're saying too early that we've forgiven someone, and
then we it comes back up again. So whether it's
the grudge, whether it's the resentment, whether it's drama, whether
it's continued behavior, it doesn't necessarily serve us with that
(37:20):
other person to forgive so soon.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
I think that's interesting too, Like how you were saying
reality TV, isn't reality such a good point because it's like, Okay,
are you holding this grudge because you know it's drama
and you know it's going to be entertaining and you
know that you have a job to do on this show,
or are you genuinely like not over it and feel
(37:46):
like this is you know, necessary to talk about to
move on.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
That's interesting, That's tricky, and I don't know who might
have the answer to that, because it could be a
combination of all things, right, Like, one cast member might
be there for TV only and they are trying to
stir the pot because it's going to make for good content,
and now they're getting more airtime. More airtime means a
bigger check, which means bigger opportunities. Right, are there also
(38:13):
people who are like, I'm just here being my genuine self,
like and y'all just happen to catch it on film.
But now you put those two type of people together,
and it's hard for people in it as well as
the viewers to see like who's real and who's in
it to make content. So before it makes it difficult
to be like am I forgiving this person? Or am
I forgiving this act that they put on for TV?
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Mm hmm, Yeah, it does definitely make it more complicated. Okay, So,
just to pull from some examples from this season of
vander Pump Rules, we're seeing, like I mentioned earlier, Shina
wanting to forgive Tom because he's been a good friend
to her in the past. And then we also see
(38:59):
Kate be really you know, it seems like she's holding
some resentment it seems like she isn't willing to forgive
the past, and I think she has her own personal
reasons for that, given her relationship and how that played out.
But Katie keeps saying to Sina, like that doesn't matter
(39:22):
because that was years ago, that he was a good
friend to you, and you know, we need to look
at who this person is today. And maybe the answer
to that is, like each person should make their own
decisions on whether or not they're going to forgive that person,
and each person should be willing to let other people
(39:47):
make those decisions for themselves.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Absolutely, because I think even though sometimes it can be
human nature and also it can be the nature of
a reality television show to have a group of people
get together and talk about something that just happened in
the real world, I don't know how healthy that is
because now we start to engage in group think, right,
Like we're not able to formulate our own opinion. We're
(40:10):
kind of going off of, oh, well, you know, she
said that was twenty years ago, like I should be
over that, or you know he said that. You know,
they're not like this with me, So now it's causing
you to doubt yourself and second guess yourself and look
to someone else to give you information on how you
should operate and behave, which isn't good. I do also
recognize that in the context of a reality television show
(40:33):
that might be difficult to do because you're put into
these scenarios where there have to be these group conversations
and so in that you can listen to what someone
else is saying and then at the end of the
day still formulate your own opinion and your own decisions.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
How would you avoid that. I've been thinking, like journaling
or you know, working on therapy sessions one on one
to formulate your own opinions on situation.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Yeah, So whatever that looks like for you, whether it's journaling,
whether it's meditating, whether it's therapy, whether it's just literally
taking notes. So having that time alone with yourself, I
think is extremely important because that's the only way you're
going to understand how you're thinking or feeling about a situation.
I know that a lot of times, and I'm going
to be stereotypical as I say this, A lot of
(41:23):
times as women we want to get up and call
our girlfriend. I'm totally guilty of that. Of like, technically
this just happened, you know, to kind of vent or
get it off your chest, and more times than not,
that friend is going to now give you their opinion, right,
and even if you do agree with that, it's still
like putting information into your mind before you're able to
truly like process it for yourself. So as best you
(41:45):
can to take time before you're venting with anyone else
or sharing with anyone else, jot down for yourself, what
am I thinking about this, what am I feeling about this?
What the hell just happened from my own perspective before
I invite anyone else into that conversation.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Great advice.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Well, I just want to thank you so much for
joining me today, doctor Pia. You are so intelligent and
so insightful, so thank you for giving us your knowledge today.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Absolutely, thank you so very much. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Thank you so much for listening to Rachel Goes Rogue.
Follow us on Instagram and TikTok for exclusive video content
at Rachel gos Rogue Podcast
This is Rachel gos Rogue.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Rachel Goes Rope.
I'm your host, Rachel Savannah Levis. Today we will be
talking about forgiveness. This is a theme that keeps reappearing
on vander pump Roles, and it's something that I've been
working through in my personal life. I think that forgiveness
(00:31):
is simple yet complicated, and it took me a while
to be willing to forgive myself. I've noticed on this
season of vander Pump Roles a lot of the cast
members will be asking another person for forgiveness or saying like, oh,
(00:51):
I'm still waiting for an apology from this person. So
I think that dynamic is interesting, Like is forgiveness something
you can just ask for from somebody else? What if
somebody did cross a serious boundary and you're not willing
to forgive them, then what happens?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I have a guest.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Her name is doctor Pia and you may know her
from Lifetimes Married at First Sight. Doctor Pia is a
psychotherapist who specializes in working through relationship issues. Welcome doctor Pia.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Hello Rachel, nice to meet you.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Today We're going to be talking about forgiveness, and I
feel like it's a complex process. It seems simple, but
I think that maybe you could give us some more
clarity on what forgiveness really is and we can dive
into some of these questions.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Sure, okay, Well, first of all, thank you for having me.
I'm excited and happy to be here. And yes, forgiveness
is totally conflex I think, first and foremost, a lot
of people perhaps have a negative reaction to forgiving someone
because there's this idea that that means we're now like
justifying whatever that behavior was, or whatever their actions were,
(02:07):
or perhaps maybe it's a character trait or a personality trait.
But the reality is that forgiveness is truly for ourselves,
for us to be able to have our own peace,
because if we're holding on to something, well, now this
is coloring our mood and how we show up in
the world. So I think that the first thing that
we must do is recognize that we are forgiving for
(02:28):
our own gain and for our own benefit and not
necessarily for that other person. And it does not have
a mutually exclusive because perhaps when you do forgive, now
you've minded a relationship with someone else, or it does
benefit the dynamics, though. Number one priority is to have
a better overall mental state for yourself.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Definitely. I've seen people hold grudges in the past, and
I've just seen how that eats away at them. And
when I, I don't know, just growing up and stuff,
I decided that I don't want to be like that,
and I want to be able to forgive somebody if
(03:07):
they've done something wrong and they seem to be remorseful.
But then I feel like maybe some people have taken
advantage of that because I do have that empathy. So
what would your advice be to somebody who is more
empathetic and does forgive more easily.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Yeah, so, I mean you're bringing up a great point
of you don't want it to be that. Now, this
is like a manipulation tactic of oh, I know that
I can always do whatever, and Rachel's just going to
forgive me because that speaks to a larger issue. Perhaps
the antidote to that is then boundary setting. That's then
data for you of Wow, Okay, I keep forgiving this person,
(03:51):
they keep taking advantage of they keep doing the same thing.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Well, what are you.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Really forgiving then, or what are they truly apologizing? For
if they're doing the same behavior. So that's the situation
where you can put the boundary in place of well,
I'm forgiving them for my own sake, though I recognize
that they're going to continue in this pattern and this behavior,
and perhaps now I need to have a boundary up
where maybe our relationship looks different, maybe our relationship has
to end, but that boundary has to be put in place,
(04:17):
because now it's no longer I'm giving this person grace
because they always make mistakes, or we all make mistakes
as humans. Rather and more so, they're doing this because
they know that I will still be around.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Definitely, what happens if somebody forgives someone before they're really ready,
Like if somebody was very quick to be like, oh
that's okay, but deep down they weren't quite ready or
didn't process through that.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, I think that that's a sign that we're not
listening to our gut or our intuition, right. And sometimes
we have the personality styles where we don't want to
have any kind of conflict with people, so we just
it kind of like is like you know, word vombit. Oh,
I'm sorry, it's okay, don't worry about it, right, It
just immediately comes out without even processing or thinking, because
I don't want to have any beef with this person,
(05:10):
or you know, I don't want to be considered like
conflict or dramatic, so I'm just saying it to say it, essentially,
kind of like the people who just apologize before they
even realize what they're apologizing for. You're just saying it
to say it, and that sets you up for failure
in your relationships, because if you don't really know why
you're forgiving someone, you might not actually be in a
(05:31):
place where you are truly forgiving them, right, because maybe
you say I forgive you, but it comes up again
later on in a conversation, or perhaps you start treating
them differently and maybe they're on the other and like
I thought we got over this like three months ago,
Why is this now coming up again? Right? Because you
weren't explicit in whatever that forgiveness is, or perhaps you
(05:51):
weren't truly embodying forgiveness, because again, going back to that
original point of the forgiveness is supposed to come first
for yourself and then secondary or if at all, for
the other person. So if you say the words too quickly,
you're you're not giving yourself the benefit of the doubt.
You're not giving yourself the opportunity to really examine what's
(06:13):
most important to you and why you want to move
forward with that person or not. So I think it
takes time to reflect, and you know that is difficult
to do because in the situation, you might be thinking, Okay, well,
then what do I say? You can say, you know,
I need some time to think about this. I need
some time to think about this, like I want us
to be good or I want things to be okay,
(06:35):
but I really just this is a lot to process
at once, and I just need some time.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yeah, that's a good point. I feel like that could
lend to people bringing up the past and holding it
over your head. And I've seen this multiple times on
this season of vander Pump Rules. For instance, Tom brought
up James's past with Kristen and that relationship and how
it unfolded. I think it would kind of circle back
(07:00):
to what we were talking about with resentment. What happens
when someone harbors resentment and how do you navigate somebody
who claims to forgive but brings up the past as
an attack.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Well, then that would be us telling them, well, you
haven't truly forgiven, right, because I think that goes back
to your forgiving for yourself. So when you're forgiving for yourself,
you're recognizing I'm letting go of whatever this issue was
because it doesn't serve me to hold on to this,
whether this person continues in that behavior or doesn't. I'm
making the choice to forgive so that I can go
(07:35):
on about my life. When you're bringing up the piece
of resentment and the other examples you were giving, the
word that comes to mind for me is like the
pop psychology word of weaponizing that person is now like
weaponizing that information. Well, you said you forgave or you
know this happened in your past, and people are bringing
it up in the inopportune moments, not in a way
to be productive or move the conversation forward, but more
(07:56):
so to like hold something over your head, to like
one up you. Right. And so this is to me
sounds like power dynamics, And that's part of where resentment
holds too. Of Do you feel as though that person
is having some sort of power over you, That's why
there's resentment. Right, you want an apology or you want
some sort of different changed behavior from that other person.
(08:17):
That's why you're holding onto resentment. You feel so very
wronged and we're personalizing it in that moment. Then, right,
rather than saying, okay, that is about them. They made
those choices because of who they are. They use those
words because of who they are. It doesn't matter if
it was me, if it was you, if it was
Tom to Carry Sally, Jane, whomever. Right, that's about them.
(08:38):
So that's why I say that forgiveness must come from
within first, because it's not going to matter how that
other person is behaving going forward. And that's how you
can ward against resentment is if you're truly recognizing I
forget them because I don't want to hold any grudges.
I don't want to hold resentment. I don't want this
to continue to live in my head. Rent free. I've
got things to do, right, So I'm doing this that
(09:01):
I can move forward. And then it also has to
come with that secondary piece of now setting boundaries, because
if you forgive, even if it's for yourself, but you're
still maintaining the same type of relationship with that person
and you continue to see them engaging in the same
type of behaviors. Well, then it doesn't make sense to
continue to forgive because you're not able to truly forgive
because it's the same thing happening again. But the hard
(09:23):
part in that is setting that hard boundary to change
the relationship dynamics. And so whether it's boundary setting, whether
it's overcoming resentment, whether it's just forgiveness, it's hard because
the work falls on us, even though at face value
it looks like the work should be on the other person, right,
like they're the ones who wronged this, They're supposed to apologize,
they're supposed to make it better, and when in reality,
(09:45):
we have no control over other people. We just have
the control over ourselves.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yes, it took me a while to forgive myself because
I was beating myself up and you know, thinking like
how could I, how could I put myself in this position?
Like why did I do this? Look at what it's created,
and just kind of like getting into a dark place
about it. And the more I learned about why I
(10:11):
was choosing these behaviors and making these decisions and understanding
like more of my subconscious programming, I was able to
forgive myself for my actions and I feel like there
was a huge accountability piece where I kept telling my
therapist I want to take accountability. I want to take accountability,
(10:35):
and ultimately she was like, accountability for you, Rachel, looks
like protecting yourself. But ultimately I am able to forgive myself.
And I just rewatched Bethany Frankels podcast that I was
a guest on, and she asked me point blank, do
you forgive yourself? And I said yes, and I was
(10:58):
like very It was like one of those moments like
looking back at your past self, even if it was
only like six months ago, and being like yes, yes,
like a proud moment.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah that's great, you know, because a lot of times
we're holding ourselves to an unrealistic standard, and so there
can be this fine line between I want to take
accountability and also like, let me be real with myself,
like perhaps I was behaving this way because of environmental factors, right,
so part of my growth then, or like to your therapist, point,
(11:29):
part of your protection might be I need to remove
myself from environments where I behave this way because we're
all human. I don't care how many books you've read.
I don't care how many degrees we've got. I don't
care how many hours of therapy, what medications were on.
Our environment is going to impact us. Right, if you
poke a bear only but so many times, eventually they're
going to attack, right, and so we're not. If we
(11:51):
learn more about ourselves, we can learn Okay, when I'm
around these type of environments, When I'm around these type
of folks, I behave in a way that doesn't feel
good to myself, or it becomes too intolerable for me
to try to withstand engaging in these environments. It's hard
for us to you know, be the mother Teresa, so
(12:12):
to speak, in in unflattering circumstances, or in unhealthy circumstances,
or in you know, dere it be abusive circumstances. But
when I hear you say the piece of the work
that you did to forgive yourself, that also helps not
only you, but it helps you to be able to
forgive others because you're recognizing the important piece of grace
(12:32):
right that you know, we don't have necessarily be bad people.
Sometimes we can do bad things right so that it's
no longer just like an attack on someone's character or personality,
but it's like someone had a bad day, they did
something just like you've had a bad day. I've had
a bad day. And so we learned to forgive ourselves
because of those isolated incidents or if we're able to
think about the environment. But there is an important piece
(12:53):
of part of forgiveness does absolutely include accountability, which is
therefore like naming and taking ownership over whatever the thing was.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, I'm just thinking back to the moment for me
at the Meadows because it took me a while to
process Tom recording me without me knowing, and it was
so chaotic that I didn't have like that ability to
process what just happened. It was like survival mode. And
(13:24):
it wasn't until I had my one on one trauma
therapy sessions in the Meadows that I was able to
really start be compressing what he did and how he
violated a personal boundary. And I remember telling him on
the phone like after processing it, like I don't think
(13:47):
that I will be able to forgive you for this.
And then you know, a week later, he's like trying
to get me to hire his lawyer and fire my lawyer,
and he like had a flip up and he said,
the last thing that we need you to do right
now is to go rogue. And so I, you know,
(14:08):
I process that in itself. I did art therapy and
I painted out that in conversation, and I had this
fantasy of calling him and being like I've gone rogue
and just hang up the phone and kind of like
do that power move.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
And my therapist is like, well, well, we're not going
to do that.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
But I guess my question is is it okay not
to forgive somebody?
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Hmm? I think that that's a tricky question because again,
how can I put it. There's a great book called
Radical Forgiveness, and it's much like radical acceptance. If people
are familiar with that concept of we don't have to
like it, we don't have to agree with it, but
we are accepting that it is reality. Same thing with forgiveness.
(14:54):
We don't have to condone the person's behavior. We don't
have to like that though for our own sanity. I
am a believer that we must forgive again for ourselves,
not for that person. This comes up a lot for
me as a psychologist. I deal with a lot of
women who have experienced sexual assault, sexual trauma like developmental
(15:15):
chronic sexual trauma from childhood on and to be able
to say, how in the world could I forgive my perpetrator?
Like that makes no sense, doctor peer like that, like, no,
I don't forgive them if we can look to that
person as a human if there is something going on
with them. Clearly, if someone is doing something so egregious,
(15:37):
that is not about us. That's about something that is
going on within them, whatever that may be mental health issues,
family of origin issues, a combination of all of those things,
whatever the case may be. It's about what their experience
has been. And the more that we hold on to
not forgiving them, the more that trauma that hurts stays
(16:00):
within us. The other piece about that is forgiveness doesn't
mean you have to call that person up and say, hey,
I forgive you, or you don't have to write them
a letter and say hey, that could be your own
conversation with yourself. That person doesn't even have to ever
know that you've forgiven them. But it's more so a
piece of I'm not letting that thing have any bearing
on me. So for you, right the you went rogue,
(16:23):
is you no longer allowing that to live in your head?
Right Like being recorded in most states against your will
is actually illegal, not only just like a bad thing
or a violation of privacy. Right, there's nothing that you
did to cause that. And so when you can take
yourself out of the scenario and say, okay, that was
about that person, I forgive their actions because for whatever
(16:44):
reason they chose to engage in that behavior. At this
point in time, where they continue to engage in those behaviors,
I forgive them for my own sake and my own wellbeing.
I don't even have to ever tell them that I'm
forgiving them. The forgiveness allows me to take the power
back because when we don't forgive, that other person is
holding power, right because we're thinking about it, we're thinking
(17:06):
about it in some way, even if it's even if
it's about revenge, right, even if it's like I'm gonna
get them back, Well, now, they're holding power over us, right,
And so and that's that's the piece for me where
I say forgiveness is best to happen in all situations.
It doesn't mean that it has to happen immediately. Sometimes
it could take decades for that forgiveness to happen, and
(17:27):
that's okay. So I wouldn't put a time limit on it.
And I wouldn't put any specifications around how that forgiveness
is delivered, if at all.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Something that you said and there you said it was
out of my control. How he took that video without
my consent was out of my control and there was
nothing that I could do in that moment. But then
I also think back, like, well, I shouldn't have been
doing anything with him anyway, So then it's a piece
(17:55):
of like self accountability. And then forgive it myself for
that because then you know, ultimately that's the place where
there's so much shame and guilt and pain obviously with
the violation, but mostly shame, I think because it's one
(18:16):
of those acts that you know, it's a private thing
you don't want people to know about, first of all,
and then second of all, it's just an intimate moment.
So I think, like, what is the what is the
line between forgiveness and accountability?
Speaker 1 (18:33):
M H, Well, it's hard, right because as I'm hearing
you say that back to me, I'm like, goodness, you're
blaming yourself. This is we're playing a blame game, right
of Look, I should have known better or I knew this,
so why did I do that? Oftentimes we're operating based
off the information we have at the time. I don't
know you, I don't know him, I don't know the situation.
(18:54):
I highly doubt that if you knew you were going
to be recorded, you would have consented to it, or
you would have behaved this same way. You didn't know, right,
So that's new information. Even if you know that person
or they've shown you themselves in other scenarios, you didn't
know that that event was going to happen. That was
new information right now. Going forward, if you continue on,
(19:15):
we might say, Okay, well, what made you think that
things would be Differently, we still don't have to blame
ourselves because maybe we've forgiven maybe we think that person's different.
I think it's really hard to kind of continue to
point the finger at ourselves. And there is a fine
line between taking accountability and wanting to be responsible and
do our own self work and also recognizing what is
(19:37):
the behavior of someone else. And so that's why I
say it's important for us to take the time to
self reflective. Do I show up this way all the time?
Am I showing up this way in multiple situations and
with multiple people, but sometimes to your earlier point Rachel level.
People might know that I'm easily to forget, so they
take advantage of that, so they continue to behave in
(19:58):
a certain way where you just got those colored glasses on.
You can't really see it because you're in the moment, right,
But do you behave that way with your best friends,
with your sister, with your mother, with you know, coworkers.
And if the answer is no, that's data, right, that's
data I'm behaving in this way with this particular person.
So perhaps I don't need to take accountability for how
I was behaving in that situation, and more so recognize
(20:19):
this is an unhealthy, perhaps toxic, and unsafe environment for me.
So I need to remove myself rather than focusing on
the forgiveness or rather than focusing on accountability, I need
to remove myself so I can even freaking think clearly.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, yeah, one percent.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
And that's how I'm in the position that I am now.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
So when it comes to other people, you know, being
willing to forgive others and like from the outside looking in, uh,
what is the line between accountability and forgiveness there? Because
I think a lot of people aren't willing to forgive
and people I mean not to always bring it back
(21:12):
to me. But just from drawing from my experience, people are,
you know, saying that I don't deserve forgiveness and I'm
not taking accountability. So I guess what does that look
like for someone to take accountability?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Okay, so perhaps as a matter of a situation where
like two things can be true at the same time. Right,
that someone else might have done something harmful to you
or something that required apology or remorse doesn't also mean
that maybe you didn't do things that would also require
an apology or remorse. So perhaps taking a look at
(21:56):
that situation of are there particular things that I did
to contribute to this experience happening, that's where the accountability
piece would take place, not the I should have what
it could is because we can't change that, right, Like,
that's not helpful, But more so of like the actual
data points, the actual facts of what occurred that everyone
(22:17):
can observe. Okay, what did I do in those moments
that I can take accountability for that I no longer.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Want to do totally.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
I've recognized that I wanted to make a change in
my behavior, and I've done everything in my power to
make that a reality. For me, and so sometimes like
I just need to remind myself to, you know, forgive
the other people that are still holding it over my
head because they're they're not really in my personal life
(22:48):
and they don't really know what I'm doing to take
accountability and what I'm working towards. And then there's also
this piece of like outside influence, like, oh, you need
to apologize for this, Like how would you approach like
(23:09):
comments from the Peanut Gallery on if you need to
forgive somebody or not, or if you should accept somebody's
apology or not. Because right now on the show, Sina
is having a hard time. She's having a hard time
because there's a conflict between the rest of the cast
(23:31):
or the friends not wanting to forgive this person. But
you can tell she's struggling because she does want to
forgive this person, but then she's worried that if she
forgives them, she's gonna hurt somebody one of her friends.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, so this is tricky, and it's layered what you're
talking about, because there's unfortunately such a big difference between
the real world and reality TV. The reality is like
there's cameras there, there's producers around right, there's like things
that got be recorded. But my answer for in the
real world is okay, just like we have to look
to ignore when people are telling us what we should
(24:06):
or shouldn't do, because like they don't have to live
our real lives. I understand that in reality TV when
you're taping something like that may not be a luxury
that you have. So those are two separate pieces. Let
me just focus on the real work part right now.
If other people are telling you, oh, you should forgive,
or you should do that, or you should do this,
context is so important, Like those people aren't living your lives.
They're not there, they don't know what's going on, so
(24:29):
that it's not in our best interest to listen to
the advice of others because one like it could backfire
on us. Two we're not learning how to do that
for ourselves, and then three we now then become dependent
upon someone else to tell us what to do. And
the reality is we're not going to always have someone
present for us at every single moment, and then we
don't know how to behave now right where we're in
(24:52):
a reality TV situation where maybe that's not as easily
accessible to say, like I'm not listening to what these
people have to say. We have to think about, Okay,
how can we be the most true to ourselves? If
maybe I'm told that I should be doing this, let
me try to reflect on, like why I'm being told that,
and like what would be the importance of this, and
(25:12):
do I want to do this or not? Like is
this is this me being true to myself? And is
there a way that I can speak to that in
a way that I'd be proud of because I know
that this is it's gonna be a national television that
I'm gonna have to like think out later on, right,
And so the should I forgive? You know, I think
something could be said to the point of what you
just mentioned of everyone doesn't have all the information you
(25:35):
saw a click snippet of what happened during this you
know event, Right, if somebody, if people are saying Rachel
has done something that's just so unforgivable, they don't know you,
they don't know your story, they don't know what you've
been through, they don't know what was even happening that day.
There's something called dialectical behavioral therapy, and we talk about
chain analysis, right of, Like here's this event that erupts.
(25:56):
But we have to go and look through the chain
of like what happened before where that behavior Okay, to
see like why did this occur? To have better understanding
of that individual and so like that's the piece where
grace comes into place. So when we're thinking about if
we want to forgive, why we want to forgive? Are
we taking accountability? Do we need to take accountability? We
(26:17):
have to also examine the chain of events, which will
then lead us to examining like our own vulnerabilities, right,
thinking about what kind of circumstances Am I very vulnerable too?
Am I highly triggered by then have me behaving in
a way that's like out of character for me? Right?
And thinking about going forward, how can I work with
(26:37):
those triggers? How can I more easily identify what those
triggers are or what my vulnerabilities are. How can I
also communicate those things to other people, trusted people, so
they can know like, Okay, this is a vulnerable space
for me, or this is a trigger for me. If
you see me behaving this way, like this is a
sign that like I'm about to get to that eruption point.
So I need to like exit stage left or like
(26:59):
do some sort of self soothing or whatever the case
may be. But so it really does have to do
with awareness. I think awareness of ourselves and awareness of
our environments.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
I'm glad that you brought up DBT because that is
one of the therapy what is it called, like a
therapy model that I got to explore at the Meadows
And I think important part in that is the yes
and or like two things can be true at the
same time. M hm. So yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Think it's important, absolutely, and that's part of DBT. Then
you understand radical acceptance, right, it's the same thing for
radical forgiveness that it's something that benefits us even if
we don't agree with it. You don't have to agree
with it. It's just the reality.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Okay, So this next question, I guess personally I have
my own thoughts on it. But what would you say
to somebody who wants to control, well debatably, who their
friends hang out with. Like if somebody wronged you so
bad that you were like, no, this is unforgivable, and
(28:08):
you have mutual friends and your friend is like, no,
you you shouldn't be friends with anyone who has done
that to me. For this specific example, it would be
Arianna putting up the boundaries for herself on her friends
that are in this friend group.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Mm hm, So that's tricky. I think that the you know,
part of a human response might be like, well, why
would that person want to be friends with them? They
know what they did to me? Like, this person is
a bad person. Right. We can't control anyone else. We
can only control ourselves, right, And there's something to be
examined of if we're trying to control who our friends
are friends with, because that other friend might be saying
(28:51):
it's horrible what they did to you, and I don't
condone that, and I hate that though two things mutu
at the same time. Right, I don't have that experience
with this person. That person and I get along just fine,
they don't behave in that way, and it doesn't feel
fair for me to now cut off this relationship with
someone who I've had no issues with. So the antidote
to that would be boundary setting. Okay, that's cool, but
(29:13):
guess what, Please don't invite me into shared spaces where
that person's going to be because I am no longer
friends with that person. I don't want to be around them.
Please don't tell me what's going on in their life,
Like I don't want to hear about it. Like, let's
just respect the boundaries that, like me and this person
no longer coexist, so you and I can maintain our friendship.
You and her keep your friendship over there. So that's
the piece of controlling yourself because you can't control the
(29:35):
other person.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Mm, yeah, that makes total sense. Yeah, And I feel
like I've kind of had to deal with some of
that on my own too, because I've hut this person
out of my life as well, and we still have
mutual friends, and I you know, I'm not telling anyone
(29:58):
not to be friends with him, because it's ultimately your
own decision and at your own risk. Like you have
the data points, as you were saying, as to what
this person is capable of and how they've wronged me,
So it's like continue at your own risk. But I
feel like everyone should be able to have their own
(30:22):
autonomy to make that decision for themselves.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Absolutely, And I mean it also doesn't take away the
fact that, like it can suck initially where you're kind
of like, what are friends hanging out with this person?
Didn't I just tell you what this person did. And
so I'm not suggesting that like overnight, you're gonna be like, yes,
you know, they can be friends and I'm over here.
It takes that growth, and it takes some time and
distance away from the situation to be able to maturely say, okay,
(30:48):
you know, engage at your own risk. I'll be over here.
We can give some grace to the fact that there
are some times where you're allowed to be really pissed
about that.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
HM. Is there a grieving process with forgiveness?
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Oh, I would say absolutely, because there's often a loss there, right,
whether that's a loss of how you perceived that person.
It could be you know, a whatever happened. Maybe now
there's a loss of that relationship dynamic, or a loss
of a perception like that image you had of that person,
(31:22):
or maybe a loss of trust now a loss of respect.
And that's truly what grief is about. It's about loss.
And so that's why I say that you know that
forgiveness can take some time because you do have to
mourn whatever that relationship dynamic was or whatever that experience
was to even be able to think clearly. So that's
why to your earlier point of like, what if you
(31:43):
just like quickly say, you know, I forgive you, you
haven't had time to mourn or process or really think
about it.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
I think there's also like that grieving process of this
isn't the person that I thought he was. Like, I
had this idea of who this person was, and he
was somebody that really cared about me and respected me,
and then you know what he did conflicts with that
(32:08):
because he didn't care. You know, he didn't ask for consent,
he didn't care if I didn't want to be recorded,
and he did it anyway. So yeah, that grief of
like and acceptance of like, this person isn't the person
(32:32):
that I thought he was, and I have to accept that.
And if I deny that, then I'm not living in reality.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah. Absolutely, And I think, you know, using the example
of grief, I'm so glad that you added that to this.
We know that grief is not a linear process. I
don't know that forgiveness also could be a linear process, right, Like,
for example, depending on the situation, we might have to
before we can get to that truly, you know, accepting
the reathing process and really sitting with the fact that
(33:02):
this person is not who I thought they were, so
on and so forth. We might have to take action
first before that for safety reasons, right, that boundary might
need to be put up where I'm not around that
person anymore before you can even get to that point
of truly processing and thinking about, oh my gosh, what happened?
What did they do to me? Who was this person?
For safety reasons or even just like for logistical reasons,
but you're absolutely right that that morning process does need
(33:25):
to occur to like have that true radical forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, it was such a process too, because you know,
I was still talking to him when I was in
the meadows, and then I was beginning to process through
this violation, and then you know, I decided for myself
that I'm cutting off all communication and I locked his
number in my phone the day that I got my
phone back leaving treatment. And as I mentioned earlier, I
(33:54):
rewatched the Bethany Frankel interview, and I wasn't very expressive
of how he's wronged me or like certain specifics, like
because I didn't want to throw him under the bus.
And then like time is passing my process more and
now with my podcast, it's like, okay, I'm much more
open with it, and I've been able to process through
(34:14):
that even more so. Yes, just validating that it is
definitely a.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Process, and that process will look different for every person, right,
Like some people might feel like, Okay, if I keep
bringing these things up or getting more information, it's not
healthy for me. Other people feel like, no, I have
to put a name to this, because when we're not
naming something, we're like feeding into it. Right. And I
don't know that there's necessarily a right or wrong. I
think it's specific to that individual and their healing journey.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Does forgiveness look different in love relationships versus friendship?
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Well, I think it depends, right. So, for example, if
we're talking about marriage, that's this like, you know, lifelong
commitment that we've agreed to make with someone where we
have more at stake or more at risk, or a
higher level of commitment right where we've signed up to,
whether it's just legally or whether it's you know, religiously
(35:24):
as well, that we are with this person, you know,
till death do with part minus some sort of egregious
thing that perhaps we're more susceptible to forgive that life partner,
or perhaps we're more susceptible to forgive family members because
these are people that like, yes we can severtise with family,
Yes we can severtize with a spouse. It's just not
(35:44):
as easy right as it might be with a friend.
So I think that that's perhaps part of the nuance
in my opinion. Then if we're married or there's a
family tie, we might be more likely to forgive in
those situations, whereas friendships. Now, some people we've been friends
with for twenty thirty years and only blood would make
us family right, where it's like, yeah, that same thing applies,
(36:07):
versus Okay, this is someone I just met a couple
of weeks ago. Do I want to forgive them and
continue on with the relationship, or do I see that
as a data point of like I don't know about
this person, Like let me just go, you know, remove
myself from them, Like I don't even want to entertain
the idea of maybe they'll be a different person, or
you know, maybe I'm going to give them another chance.
I think that's a personal preference, but I do think
(36:30):
that it could be different in friendship relationships versus a
marital relationship or even someone that you're seriously dating. Or
even cohabitating with, because you get to see more sides
of them. Right like with our friends, we're not getting
to see all sides of one another, and there's not
that higher level of commitment as there might be in
a marriage.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
So what happens when somebody forgives someone before they're actually ready.
Is that where grudges happen.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
I think that's absolutely why grudges happen, or why drama occurs,
because we're saying too early that we've forgiven someone, and
then we it comes back up again. So whether it's
the grudge, whether it's the resentment, whether it's drama, whether
it's continued behavior, it doesn't necessarily serve us with that
(37:20):
other person to forgive so soon.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
I think that's interesting too, Like how you were saying
reality TV, isn't reality such a good point because it's like, Okay,
are you holding this grudge because you know it's drama
and you know it's going to be entertaining and you
know that you have a job to do on this show,
or are you genuinely like not over it and feel
(37:46):
like this is you know, necessary to talk about to
move on.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
That's interesting, That's tricky, and I don't know who might
have the answer to that, because it could be a
combination of all things, right, Like, one cast member might
be there for TV only and they are trying to
stir the pot because it's going to make for good content,
and now they're getting more airtime. More airtime means a
bigger check, which means bigger opportunities. Right, are there also
(38:13):
people who are like, I'm just here being my genuine self,
like and y'all just happen to catch it on film.
But now you put those two type of people together,
and it's hard for people in it as well as
the viewers to see like who's real and who's in
it to make content. So before it makes it difficult
to be like am I forgiving this person? Or am
I forgiving this act that they put on for TV?
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Mm hmm, Yeah, it does definitely make it more complicated. Okay, So,
just to pull from some examples from this season of
vander Pump Rules, we're seeing, like I mentioned earlier, Shina
wanting to forgive Tom because he's been a good friend
to her in the past. And then we also see
(38:59):
Kate be really you know, it seems like she's holding
some resentment it seems like she isn't willing to forgive
the past, and I think she has her own personal
reasons for that, given her relationship and how that played out.
But Katie keeps saying to Sina, like that doesn't matter
(39:22):
because that was years ago, that he was a good
friend to you, and you know, we need to look
at who this person is today. And maybe the answer
to that is, like each person should make their own
decisions on whether or not they're going to forgive that person,
and each person should be willing to let other people
(39:47):
make those decisions for themselves.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Absolutely, because I think even though sometimes it can be
human nature and also it can be the nature of
a reality television show to have a group of people
get together and talk about something that just happened in
the real world, I don't know how healthy that is
because now we start to engage in group think, right,
Like we're not able to formulate our own opinion. We're
(40:10):
kind of going off of, oh, well, you know, she
said that was twenty years ago, like I should be
over that, or you know he said that. You know,
they're not like this with me, So now it's causing
you to doubt yourself and second guess yourself and look
to someone else to give you information on how you
should operate and behave, which isn't good. I do also
recognize that in the context of a reality television show
(40:33):
that might be difficult to do because you're put into
these scenarios where there have to be these group conversations
and so in that you can listen to what someone
else is saying and then at the end of the
day still formulate your own opinion and your own decisions.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
How would you avoid that. I've been thinking, like journaling
or you know, working on therapy sessions one on one
to formulate your own opinions on situation.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Yeah, So whatever that looks like for you, whether it's journaling,
whether it's meditating, whether it's therapy, whether it's just literally
taking notes. So having that time alone with yourself, I
think is extremely important because that's the only way you're
going to understand how you're thinking or feeling about a situation.
I know that a lot of times, and I'm going
to be stereotypical as I say this, A lot of
(41:23):
times as women we want to get up and call
our girlfriend. I'm totally guilty of that. Of like, technically
this just happened, you know, to kind of vent or
get it off your chest, and more times than not,
that friend is going to now give you their opinion, right,
and even if you do agree with that, it's still
like putting information into your mind before you're able to
truly like process it for yourself. So as best you
(41:45):
can to take time before you're venting with anyone else
or sharing with anyone else, jot down for yourself, what
am I thinking about this, what am I feeling about this?
What the hell just happened from my own perspective before
I invite anyone else into that conversation.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Great advice.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Well, I just want to thank you so much for
joining me today, doctor Pia. You are so intelligent and
so insightful, so thank you for giving us your knowledge today.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Absolutely, thank you so very much. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Thank you so much for listening to Rachel Goes Rogue.
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