July 16, 2024 • 43 mins
Dr. Wendy Walsh and Rachel go deep.
Wendy has clear advice for Rachel about love that she needs to hear. (Might help you as well...)
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Rachel Go's Rogue. Welcome back to another episode
of Rachel Goes Rogue. I'm your host, Rachel Savannah Lovis,
and today we're continuing to dive into the dating pool.
I'm so excited to continue on this journey back to dating.
So after having my last dating expert join me, Jake
(00:30):
is awesome, but I think it's important to have different
experts come on to get different points of view because
I guess that's the smartest way to go about it,
getting different advice from different points of view and then
figuring out what works best for me. So as we
dive into these dating topics, I recommend that you do
(00:53):
the same, take what you like and leave the rest.
And that's why I'm so excited to have today's guest
join me as I continue to navigate this dating world.
I'm bringing in doctor Wendy Walsh. She's known as America's
relationship expert. Doctor Wendy Walsh is an award winning television journalist,
(01:18):
a radio host and podcaster, the author of three books
on relationships and thousands of print and digital articles. She
holds a PhD in clinical psychology and has been a
host of her own radio show, The Doctor Wendy Walsh
Show since twenty fifteen. She's also a former Emmy nominated
(01:38):
host of The Doctors as well as former host of
Extra and named the Time Magazine Person of the Year
in twenty seventeen. Thank you so much for joining me,
Doctor Wendy Walsh. I'm really happy to have you here
to talk about dating.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Thank you, it's my favorite topic.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Let's start at the beginning. Since you have a background
in psychology, why is it that some women are more
drawn to men they know are bad for them?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Well, it all has there's two pieces. Actually, one is
attachment style. So women who have had suffered some kind
of abuse in their childhood, whether that abuse was emotional, physical,
or sexual, which makes up more than one third of
all women, by the way, and usually that abuse came
at the hand from the hand of someone they loved,
(02:31):
and so their model for love psychologists might call it
the internal working model for love is mixed up with
pain and longing, so that's familiar to them. And I
always say love isn't about finding happiness, it's about finding
the familiar. So the only thing we can do is
change our model for love and learn to accept and
(02:53):
tolerate kindness.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
So that's one thing.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
The other thing is women like to unquote date up.
They were all so brought up through the patriarchy they
and through Cinderella stories, and we are at a time
in our history where they're actually more working women than
working men. In America right now, we have seen in
the last twenty years the feminization of college campuses. Women
(03:19):
are making great strides getting ahead in education and income,
but they still want a guy who's more educated or
a little older, who makes more money. And that is
a dwindling supply of men. So with the you know,
I hate the word alpha male because it's not true.
But let's just say the high value male mate. He's
(03:39):
going to He has so much choice right now because
all the women are vying for them. So he doesn't
have to work very hard, and he doesn't have to
treat women very well at all. He just has to
you know, I used to say that the price of sex.
So we live in a high supply sexual economy where
the sex is in high supply and the price is
(03:59):
very In nineteen fifty, the price of sex was six
years of courtship and a wedding ceremony in the nineteen eighties,
it was three expensive dates. Today the price of sex
is the barrel bottom price of one well worded text,
and sometimes it's.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Just you wip okay. So what do you make of this?
Is there like a solution to this problem?
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Or I've written about this in all three of my
books and so and I'm working a third book right
now called blue Chip Sex, Having the right kind of
sex at the right time with the right person. You see,
women hold all the cards in a relationship before sex happens,
and they lose all the cards right after sex happens.
So delaying the onset of a sexual relationship while you're
(04:43):
doing some assessment is important. And I want to be
really clear. This is not making him wait, This is
not manipulating him so he'll love me more. This is
you go on, dude, I'm going to protect my eggs,
my bloodstream in my heart until you pass my test.
(05:03):
It's about doing the choosing. It's about putting women in
the power position, in the driver's seat in their relationships.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
So how long would you recommend to wait to help that?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So that's always the big question.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
It's not about how many days or weeks or months.
Although I don't think you can have trust with somebody
after one date. It is about when you can really
trust somebody with your body.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
You see. Sex is still it's a basic biological.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Reality that women hate to think about, but it's basic evolution.
Sex is a much higher risk copy for women than
it is for men. Right, So if men have a
bad sexual experience, it's a quasi bad day. If women
have a bad sexual experience, it might involve falling in
love with a loser because our bodies emit so much
(05:55):
oxytocin and bond us with bad people. It might involve
getting an SDI. Because of our unique biology, we're much
more likely to get an STI.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And it might.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Involve coming down with an eighteen eighteen year case of parenthood. Right, So,
for women, sex is nothing to be trifled with. There
are no strings attached for women. I mean, we're trying
to make the changes birth control and protection and all
those things to make it safer, but it's still not
completely safe for women.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I wanted to go back to the first thing that
you were saying about attachment styles, and I know that
you are an expert in attachment styles, So if you
could like run down really quick for us or for
those who don't know what attachment styles are, the different
types and the type that you would ideally want in
(06:42):
a relationship or want for yourself.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Sure, so I want to remind everybody I'm not a clinician,
I'm not a therapist. I'm a psychology professor, and I
teach developmental psychology. I teach how our attachment style is
formed early in life and what the outcome is in
our adult romantic life. Now as an individual woman, I
also healed my own attachment injuries through years of therapy
(07:07):
and have a very secure relationship now. But I began
this journey studying psychology to solve my own dating problems. Literally,
so I know it from textbook and I know it
from inside. So basically, in the first three years of life,
and some people would say even in the first twelve
months before we are verbal, so we can't store memories
(07:29):
as stories and narratives.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Our brain triples in size in the first year.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
And it starts to form ideas about what's right and
normal in life, and what feels good and what doesn't.
And so this is where if there is neglect or
abuse that the child starts to think, well, this is normal.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I guess this is what love is.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
So there are different ways that attachment can play out,
and I hate to put people into very specific categories
because the truth is we may attach differently to different
people depending on what they ignite in us. But they're
generally you could say that, you know, some people have
more anxiety around attachment. They have an anxious attachment style.
They have easily fears of abandonment. They count the time
(08:13):
between each texts, they count the words in each text.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
They are looking vigilantly.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Searching for signs of abandonment. They're scrolling through their partners
social media wondering. They're trying to get his passwords, trying
to look for the dms, et cetera. These are now
I used pronouns. They're a female with male.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
But a male can have.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
An anxious attachment of style. And that's the dude that
becomes a stalker. That's the dude said, no, i'll pick
you up at work. No, I don't like your talking
to that guy at work. No, I don't want you
dress like that when we're going out, Right, that's his
fear of abandonment, right, This controlling thing that he tries
to do to control his mate.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Now. The cool the fascinating thing about attachment.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Style is that we're mostly unaware of it, and we
go out in life thinking what we're feeling is normal.
And so what we need in order to ignite that
fami ill your anxiety is we need somebody who has
an avoidant attachment style. When I say need, I mean need.
And so we will find people who fear emotional intimacy. Oh,
(09:12):
they may like physical intimacy, but they bolt pretty quickly afterwards.
So they have trouble talking about feelings. They have little
insight into their own feelings. They are very uncomfortable when
you express your feelings. They have become masters at being dismissive,
changing the subject, or indeed putting people down for having feelings.
(09:32):
You know, when they call people needy, they're too needy.
There's no such thing as needy. Everybody has their own
needs that are valid for them, right, And so what
ends up happening is there's this dance that can go
on sometimes for years and decades, where the anxious person
is feeling unfulfilled, the avoidant person is feeling smothered, and
(09:52):
this is a diad that can change. Now, your question,
what should we be looking for well. Americans who have
a secure attachment style are probably married to their college
sweetheart and they're not on dating apps.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
They tend to be people who can both give care
and receive care comfortably. Remember some people can do one
or the other, but it's hard for both. They can
take turns leaning on each other's shoulders. They can express
their feelings in a non confrontational angry way. Hey, you
know kind of bothered me when you did that. I
was wondering what was going on with you?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
And you know, they just.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Have normal conversations instead of what are you doing, you know,
and blaming the other person or trying to control the
other person.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
They live.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
It's not that they don't have conflict. In fact, research
on long term securely attached couples shows that they actually
have far more conflict than the other groups, partly because
they deal with little border skirmishes all the time. They
don't have the big, knockdown, blow them out fights. But
the other ones avoid conflict because they're so afraid of
(10:56):
the breakup that could come from it, So they wait
till everything builds and then it's a huge thing. So
how do you tell if somebody has a secure attachment style, Well,
they respond to your texts and your needs. They don't
run away, they're not dismissive, they're not overly trying to
smother you.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
They're just kind of there.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Like they might say something like, hey, I'll be happy
to pick you up, but if you feel more comfortable
bringing your own car, I understand. See they're trying to
figure out what you like, and so I'll pick you up,
but I control already.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, I would think that someone who has a healthy
relationship with their parents would be a green flag because
typically that would I would think support a more secure
attachment style in somebody relationship wise, Yes and no.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
In fact, my first book was called the boyfriend Test,
How do we evaluate his potential before you lose your heart?
And the question I did it like a Glamour magazine
quiz the whole book, And the question with the biggest
amount of points is what kind of relationship does he
have with his mother? And what you're looking for is
a relationship that's not too close and not too distant.
If he tells you on his first few dates that
(12:09):
he and his mother have a falling out and he
really doesn't like his mother and.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
He has problems. That's a big red flag if he
also says I love my mom. I had the greatest mom.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Oh my god, it's so good. I go to their
place on Sundays, I did my laundry. Sometimes my mom
is so wonderful. You're like, dude, do you need a
wife or you're just looking for a mistress, because it
sounds like you already have a wife. It's your mom, right,
so we're looking for that. A healthy answer would be,
you know, my parents did the best they had they
(12:39):
could with the tools they had. There were some rough
moments growing up, but we kind of got through it,
and I feel like we come to this place now
as adults where we have a fairly good relationship.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
That's a healthy way to describe.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Your family, Okay, And then I wanted to ask you personally.
I've had a hard time pinpointing if I have a
avoidant attachment style or an anxious attachment style, because typically,
like growing up, I've been more of an anxious person.
But I tend to attract men who like to have
(13:16):
control and are very anxious about who I'm going out
with and need to know all the details. It seems
like they fall more in that anxious attachment style, so
then therefore it would make me more of an avoidant.
And also, growing up, I had a harder time expressing
(13:36):
my emotions and identifying my emotions, and I would just
kind of like avoid tough conversations. So I think knowing that,
I think I have maybe more of an avoidant attachment style.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Well, it is a scale, and it also gets ignited
in certain ways with certain people. This is a question
for you and your therapist to worry out. I can
tell you from my experience when I hear you talking
that it reminds me a lot of me when I
was young, And I call it. It's called an anxious
ambivalent attachment style.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Anxious ambivalent is the come closer, come closer.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
I need you, Oh oh, not that close, So they're
come forward, go away people. And an example from my
early life would be I'd be always anxious for the
bad boys to call me back, and then they wouldn't
and I'd be filled with anxiety.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
So I'd fill the gap with a nice guy.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
But if the nice guy actually gave me too much attention,
I would act very dismissive and avoidant to push him away.
It was like this in between space that felt okay
for me.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yeah, interesting, Okay, thank you for that insight.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
You're welcome, But something for you and your therapist to
talk about, for sure, because at the end of the day,
all therapy is, and all any kind of analysis should be,
is for us to have awareness of our feeling and
the behaviors that come as a result of the feelings.
And once we are aware of what's motivating things, that
alone can bring such relief and it can help us
(15:08):
so easily change our behavior.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, awareness is Keith. That's like the first step to
any type of change is being aware of your attachment style,
of your patterns. Is it common for women to have
dating patterns and date the same kinds of people even
after learning they aren't the best for them.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
So my favorite metaphor for the stages of growth, I
don't know if you've heard this one before, is imagine
that bad boy is a hole in the road and
you're walking down the.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Street and you don't see the hole and you fall
in over and over again.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
And then you go to therapy, you learn about your
attachment style, and now you're like, I'm not going to
go out with bad boys anymore. And so you walk
down the street again, and this time you see the
hole and you recognize it, and.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
You still fall in.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Stage three is you walk down that street, you hit
a wall of I am done with this. You see
this bad boy in the early stages, he's showing you
all the behaviors that this is going down a path
that you have seen before, and so this time you
very carefully step around the hole. But stage four is
(16:17):
you take a different street. And there are so many
people who have a secure attachment style who are not
in the radar of somebody who has attachment juries. And
as soon as they're able to literally make a different choice,
all of a sudden, all these people come into the
radar who didn't even know these nice people were there before.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Yeah, I think maybe the part for people that are
refusing to take a different path is unknown and like
not knowing if there is anything.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Oh, change scary. Change is scary.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
So how does one break these patterns?
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Well, you definitely should do it hand in hand with
the licensed therapist, as I did. That's important and the
reason why the Internet talks so much about red flags
is they want people to pay attention to behaviors little
tiny things that happen very early on. I always say
before you hit, because once you're in bed with the person,
it's too late.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
You can't see.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Your brain is now being assaulted by a cocktail of
neuro hormones that are making you feel lust and love,
so you can't even.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
See the red flags anymore.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
And in fact, there's lots of research to show that
early stages of love is filled with delusions. It's the
best drug we have. It's a really great drug until
you hit the withdrawal apart and you go cold turkey.
So those early stage behaviors should be paid attention to
in a very big way. Now, I want to be
careful when I say this, because there are other people
(17:45):
who are avoidant, who use the tiny little flaws and
a normal.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Human as I'm not going about that again. I'm not
seeing them again. Look at that one thing they did.
These are not the people i'm talking too. The women
i'm talking.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
To tend to be women who have an anxious attachment
style and ignore the red flags and proceed on love's
racecourse and crash. And I'm here to say that watching
for that hole and carefully walking around it may be
as simple as So here's an example. This has happened
(18:17):
to me, and I remember it being part of my growth,
meeting somebody and thinking they were hot and getting into
bed with them, and everything's great for a few weeks,
and then you start to feel that little weaning. He's
not texting quite so much, you're doing more of the communication,
maybe you're even making the plans. You're starting to feel it,
you know that feeling where guys are just kind of
(18:37):
weaning you off. Well, in the old days, the old
Wendy would have tried to make him love me, offer
him more sex, show up with better underwear, be craze
for him, show him that I am like the ones.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Ignore, just bring it back to where it was at
the beginning.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
But this time I called the dude up and I said, hey,
I noticed a change in our rhythm. It feels a
little bit like I'm investing more in this than you are.
Can you help me understand what's going on? And dude said, oh, yeah,
kind of noticed that too.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I don't know whatever.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
And I said, okay, well, if you don't know, think goodbye, darling.
I said, what would admit it? I say goodbye darling,
And that is walking away Now. It doesn't mean you
won't feel lost in grief. And I did shed a
few tears in the shower. Justify a blue fine, But
you gotta walk away. When someone started to wean you,
they're sending you a message. Don't get all anxious and
think I am going to beat out all the other girls.
(19:31):
I am going to be the perfect girl. I'll make
him come back around. There's nothing you can do. No
amount of pilates classes, no amount of cute notes sent
on cute cards, no amount of you know, getting waxed
in places you never thought you would are gonna help. Okay,
it's not gonna work. If he's weaning you, he's weaning you,
and move on. He's not the guy for you.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Good advice, excellent advice. Yeah, And it's hard. It's hard
to cut it off because like you have this whole
ca of who this person is in your mind and
you want it to be a certain way, and you
want love, and.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
It's all being in love with potential instead of reality.
You can't fall in love with potential. You have to
fall in love with what is he doing? What's he
actually doing today this week? And the craziest thing is
some people will tell a partner flat out, you know,
(20:28):
I'm really not looking for a long term relationship or
a commitment. I don't see myself getting married anytime soon.
And the anxious person pushes right through that, and I'm like,
they just told you, and you're still going to keep
pursuing this even though that's not what you want. Well,
they'll fall from me. They just saying that, you know, yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
What are your thoughts on dating apps? I'm curious about
this one.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Dating apps are the new nightclub without alcohol, which is wonderful.
Dating apps shouldn't be called dating apps. They should be
called meeting apps. They're just a place to meet someone.
Dating apps should feel no different than in the olden days.
If you're at a nightclub and a dude walks by
and says hi, you either look at him, don't look
at him, say hi back, or don't turn your back whatever.
(21:25):
That's all the dating apps that moment, and from there
it's about relationship skills. It doesn't matter where you meet somebody.
It's all about relationship skills and love can be learned.
So here's the biggest problem with dating apps. They create
a paradox of choice. I want to remind you what
our brains are wired for. Our brains in our anthropological past,
(21:48):
an average human, in the course of their entire life
spain never laid eyes on more than about one hundred
and fifty other humans. Today, you got a thousand people
every day who thumbs away. You're running into them in
urban centers, on subways and nightclubs on dating apps. What
the brain does when it's presented with too much choice
(22:09):
is it has trouble making a choice, and when it
does make a choice, it doesn't value that choice very much.
So dating apps are biohacking your brain to make you
stay addicted to the app instead of finding a relationship.
And the way you undo that biohack is you use
it in a way so that you will not create
(22:29):
paradox of choice. And my prescription is very simple. Never
match with more than two people at once. Only have
two people in your message box, message with them back
and forth until one of them shows you a red
flag you don't like, and get rid of them. Now
if you have not been on the phone, I'm totally
fine with ghosting, because again, the dating app is just
somebody walking by in a nightclub going, hey, what's up?
Speaker 2 (22:50):
And you don't have to respond. It's a nightclub.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
You can look at your girlfriends and ignore them, right,
So that's all that is. Now, if you've been on
a phone with him, which I do suggest you get
on the phone after three texts, then you owe them
a nice of the ghosting text. My ghosting text was, Hey,
it was great talking to you. You know, have fun
at your cousin's wedding next week. You know, I don't
think romance is in the cards for us, but I'd
(23:15):
love to keep you in mind for a girlfriend sometime.
I probably sent that to one hundred guys. Nobody wrote back, bitch.
They wrote back, thank you.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
That's so nice of you. Just be classy anyway, Then.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
You got the one left, that one you go on
one coffee date with, and then you decide whether to
send them the ghost text, And then you go on
match with two others.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
And this way you're only choosing between one or two.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
You don't have twenty people in your boxes confusing your
brain and making you hard to make a choice.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yes, okay, that's good advice, because I was also going
to ask you like dating more than one person at
a time. I feel like there's a lot of advice
out there that it's important to be actually date more
than one person. Otherwise you could potentially just fall in
love with one person without experiencing what else could be
(24:08):
out there.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
That's the voice of paradox of choice talking. Paradox of
choice says, oh my god, there's a bigger, better deal.
Maybe this isn't quite the lie when you know there's
more choice.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
It depends where your goal is.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
If your goal is to have And by the way,
I'm not like some traditionalist who's talking like I'm from
the nineteen fifties. You want a bunch of short term
relationships and so promps in the hay and use protection.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Go for a girlfriend. You can own your own orgasm.
I don't care.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
But if you are looking for a long term, committed
relationship that may involve even reproduction. There's a very clear
set of female mating strategies, and most of those brides
out there you see in bridle magazines and in the
bridal columns have used those strategies. And the strategies are this,
these girls probably don't sleep with more than one person
at once, and they do an assessment before they start
(24:59):
sleeping with the then they try out the relationship and
decide if they want to commit or not. You know,
there's this really interesting research about choice making, and it
is this, when we finally do make a choice to
commit to anything, then we really value that choice. Not
if we have twenty other choices, but if we have
(25:20):
this one and we've committed to because you said, oh, you're.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Falling in love without thinking about all the others. That's
called love.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
That's what you're supposed to do, not think about the others,
just focus on that and fall in love.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Right. So you know, an example would be.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
You bought a Tesla and you're so excited about it,
and there's a piece of you that's maybe like, you know,
I could have got another kind of car. There's so
many electric cars on the market. But you want to
convince yourself and made the best choice in the world.
So what do you do. You run around and tell
all your friends how much you love that Tesla and
how much it is the greatest car in the whole world,
and you are so invested in it and it's a
(25:55):
part of your identity. Now, the same thing happens when
you choose a lover.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Once you see, here's a cool thing about love.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
If you believe you're in a happy relationship, and you
tell everybody you're in your happy relationship, you.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Will be in a happy relationship. Life is a self
fulfilling prophecy. So my answer to that is, yeah, all
in love with one person, date one person, tell everybody
they're great.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Now, if you're feeling pain and you're not happy in
the relationship, then get out.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
What is your stance on long distance relationships?
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Less about my stance and more about the research.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
So the research shows that it's very attractive to people
with an avoidant detachment style, obviously, And the other big
problem with long distance relationships is that it's a series
of little honeymoons. So long distance relationships don't have to
endure the day to day bumps of just the stressors
of traffic and spilled coffees and late for things and
(26:54):
where's my guy and why didn't you show up at
this and whatever, because there are scheduled weekends where it's
all just a honeymoon and wrong. So it's they're not pure reality. Now,
there's some other recent research on long distance relationships I
just came across that I thought was so fabulous that
long distance relationships can be as close and meaningful as
(27:14):
real world relationships if there's one important thing at it,
and it is emotional intimacy. So if you're talking and
face and facetiming better than talking of foresight and sound better.
If you're facetiming with your lover every day and you're
talking honestly about your feelings, even if you had a
bad day, if you can still lean on their shoulder
(27:35):
and talk about it, then your relationship will still grow
because you have the intimacy. A lot of long distance
people are afraid to do that because they don't want
to create rupture because it will screw up the next
honeymoon that's coming, So they don't test the relationship for
emotional closeness for the little things that happened during the week.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
I think it's also interesting that you say, like it's
attractive to an avoidant attachment style per se.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Oh yeah, they don't have to show up for the
day to day emotional stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
What is a good alternative for people who don't love
dating apps to.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Meet somebody everythingwhere in the world.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
If you are in the mating marketplace, then every time
you leave your door, look like you're looking for a date.
That means hair and makeup and wardrobe. Okay, because this
is a job. I say this to men and women
and everybody. If you're slumping around town with your hair
and the nod on your head, or dudes, if you're
in a bunch of baggy sweats, who are.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
You marketing to?
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Once you are set up to market yourself, start catching
people's eyes. When you're pumping gas, look to the person
pumping in the gar next door. When you're at the
Tesla superchargers, when you're in the grocery store, listen ladies
in the vegetable aisle and high heels. Guys come and
ask them dumb questions. Excuse you can ask you a
question like how do you cook this chicken? You buy
(28:59):
the roast water over there?
Speaker 2 (29:00):
But whatever.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
So you want to be open, smile and catch people's eyes.
You see getting people to ask you out. I don't
think women should ask out men, but women should issue invitations.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
And invitations.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Is all about the smile and the body language and
the hair flip. And you should do that in every
place of your life, except be careful with the workplace.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Good advice there.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Oh, and I also want to say there's new research
so I'm also an ambassador for datingadvice dot com, major website,
and they just did a survey of where people are
mostly meeting now because dating apps have been going down. LinkedIn,
because LinkedIn can be a business contact or a date.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Nobody knows.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
You could offer to meet with somebody in your industry
just to talk about certain things, and then you can
decide on your coffee date whether you want to turn
this a little bit personal. And there's no HR department
in LinkedIn. Those sexual harassment lawsuits.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Interesting, it's very interesting. Okay. How quickly do you think
you should be exclusive?
Speaker 5 (30:02):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Drives me crazy when people write to me and say, so,
my boyfriend is my friend then and we've been going
out a month, and I'm like, he's.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Not your boyfriend after what month? Okay?
Speaker 3 (30:12):
And if he says he is, somebody's done an anxious
attachment there. It takes time to do some assessment. In
my book The Boyfriend Test, I suggest that everybody needs
a minimum of a ninety day probation period. It should
be at least three months, and you know that's when
you're starting to come out of your cocoon and introduce
each other to friends and see how they walk.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
In the real world.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Right, so around ninety days is usually the time. I
also do not believe that anybody should consider moving in
together until they've been together a year, Until you've gone
through four seasons and all those holidays, you should not
be thinking of sharing.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Elise back to the dating apps. Has the dating atmosphere
now created more anxious attachment styles?
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Well, the dating atmosphere doesn't create attachment style. It's created
in early life. And what's created more attachment injuries is
modern American capitalism. You see, before the nineteen sixties or seventies,
most families lived together. Often they were multi generational families.
We were more rural and agriculture Like you lived in
(31:20):
a smaller place where you knew everybody in town. All
the mates were vetted for you by family members, and
you felt a sense of place and a village around you. Now,
because modern capitalism needed employees and they needed mobile employees,
they tour workers from those families of origin and from
(31:41):
those villages, and they sent them to big cities. And
there with the big cities, so these parents dragged around
kids in the same way, kids lost contact with cousins
and grandparents, and they had a sense of You know,
we put so much emphasis on individuality in America. Being
independent an individual is not necessarily healthy. We're supposed to
(32:03):
be connected to others, and so people grow to think
I'm not here for a long time. You know, I myself,
I would say that some of my attachment injuries had
to do with the fact that my dad was military
and we moved constantly. By the time I graduated high school,
I had gone to ten different schools. So my attitude
is it, I'm here for a short time, don't want
to get too close, don't know how long it's going
(32:25):
to be right. It is the mobility needed for modern
American capitalism that has been causing breakups of intergenerational families,
been causing divorces as one partner goes somewhere else for
a better job and kids are being dragged through this.
Speaker 5 (32:41):
That's the problem.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Okay, how many dates does it take to know if
this person is right? You?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Typically it's not number of dates, its degree of intimacy.
You know, I love that New York Times column thirty
six questions to fall in love. If you've ever done
those thirty six questions with somebody, there's an app now
for it. They had a psychologist make a series of questions,
thirty six of them, and if you do them on
a date with a partner, it probably not first date
(33:21):
thing because it gets pretty intimate. This psychologist tried it
out on a couple and he ended the thirty six
questions with another proven in all kinds of research way
to fall in love, which is to simply stare into
each other's eyes for four minutes.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Four minutes.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
It's like the eyes are the window to the soul.
So this couple he tried it out on, did it,
and they were married within six months. Most people who
get through the thirty six questions honestly do report feelings
of love at the end of it, because the questions
evoke intimacy. They're not all down and dirty. It takes
a while till you get into childhood trauma and fears
and whatever. It starts like wait and looking for commonality,
(34:03):
but then it gets into questions about we like it
might be a first date. And you're halfway through the
questions and one of the questions is, what are three
things you can say that probably both of us are
feeling right now, so it might be well cold in
the room, we're both cold or mad at that waiter
or something. You're creating commonality right in the brain. And
(34:26):
so it is not about how many dates. It's how intimate,
emotionally intimate, you can get. And the research is clear
the people who stay together the longest may not have
the best sex life, may not be wired financially or
matched financially or educationally, but they should have emotional intimacy.
(34:47):
It is the glue. You know, years and years ago,
you're too young to remember this. When Pamela Anderson and
Tommy Lee were married, you know, some handyman stole a
video of them having sex and it was released and
went around the world. She went to court and sued
them and never got the rights back. It's a tragedy.
She talks about it in her documentary on Netflix, and
it's just beautiful way.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
She talks about it.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
I was less interested in the porn on the video
and more interested to see their intimacy. They called each
other baby, can there be be? Oh, you're so cute,
And in their intimate moments, I saw the connection they had.
Of course, they had two children together. They were together
for a long time, and that's what intimacy is.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Interesting. I haven't heard it that way. When it comes
to dating apps, what do you think makes a strong
dating profile?
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Lots of research out of the Kinsey Institute says this. Okay,
So the biggest problem with dating apps, well, a couple
of problems. I mentioned paradox of choice. The other problem
is most people with the healthy attachment style married the
college sweethearts. They're problem not on the dating apps. So
you have a disproportionate amount of people who have attachment
injuries or disorganization. Doesn't mean they can't heal and aren't
(35:58):
working on them. I mean, you're not looking for a
perfect person. You're looking for somebody who's aware and doing
the work right. But the other thing is you have
people looking for a short term relationship and people looking
for a long term relationship in the same dating pool.
And the best way to get a short term relationship
is to pretend you're looking for a long term relationship. Right,
So people will say, oh, yeah, I'm looking for religions
(36:20):
haven't met the right person. By the way, it's not
about the right person. It's about relationship skills and being
the right learning how to be the right person. So
what dating approfoss The most important thing for women is
to not signal that you want a short term relationship.
So if your pictures are overly sexy, dudes like, I'm
going to say whatever need to to get that body
(36:41):
all right, so you don't have to eat just by
showing up with estrogen. And there are men when men
are looking, I will tell you this. When men go
on a first date, one hundred percent of them they
are thinking in the back of their head, am I
going to meet my wife tonight? Or am I going
to get laid? They're one or the other to them.
(37:01):
So women think if I lead with sex, he'll like me. Yeah,
he will for a short time, but the guy's looking
for a long time commit long term commitment. When they
see overly sexy girls, they think, yes, she's given it
to everybody that's not my wife.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Now.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
It don't have to be a prude, but being overly sexy,
thinking you need to compete with all those sexy women
is not a good idea. There's research to show that
when women smile in a picture, they get in their
primary picture, they get more swipe rights and so luduk the.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Smile works better. There's research to show that when you
wear red. You're getting more swipe rights just wearing red.
For men too, wearing a red shirt, they get more
swipe rights.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Things that don't work is a laundry list of things
you're looking for.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I'm looking for a man who's this. You know, the
guy reads it and he's like, well, you're looking for
a resume. I don't know if I fit right.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
And when men say that about women, we're like, don't
be so judgy.
Speaker 5 (37:56):
Whatever.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
What you want to do is.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Tell a short, cute story about yourself that shows your
personality and a little bit about your life. For instance,
I was helping a woman with a profile a while ago.
And by the way, there is somebody for everybody at
every age, across the whole lifespan.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
And this woman happened to be seventy.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
She happened to have a beach house, and she wrote
a little thing. I helped to write a little thing
about My favorite Saturday is getting up early and lining
up all the surfboards and wetsuits for the grandkids, and
then making pancakes shape like animals. And the other part
of the great Saturday is sending them home by three
(38:42):
pm so I can clean my house and have a
great evening with an adult.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
And like, it's a little story and it tells about life.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
It says I got grandkids, I'm connected to family, I
love them, I have a beach house. I you know
all these things, and all that is a short little
story that tells a lot about your life instead of
the laundry lists. And please people, do not do not
do not list brands. I have seen dating profiles that
people think they're cute. They just list brands. I love
(39:12):
Gucci and Tesla and I blah blah blah. I'm like,
can you be more commercial? O?
Speaker 1 (39:20):
My goodness, Okay, And.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
The other thing is so in my dating profile, my
main picture was me with a headset on a microphone
at my I have a radio show right in the
radio studio, and I was wearing a sweatshirt that said
I'm not for everybody.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
And that made me a little hard to get because.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
It went my fiance, now fiance, we're getting married next month.
Saw He was like, Oh, she may not be for everybody,
but she's for me.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Right.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
You want to be unique to one person. You don't
want to attract thousands of people. You want to drag
one perfect person, So be unique to them what that.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
What that picture said is ooh, she does radio. She
got a big mouth.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
She's a big mouth woman, and she knows her words.
She's not for everybody. She'll walk away ooh. And most
of them went, ooh, bitch, I don't want to deal
with that. Except the guy who loves strong, big mouthed women.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Compatible. Yes, I love it. Oh my gosh. Okay, Well,
thank you so much for joining me today. I feel
like we've kind of went through it all and got
more clarity. And thank you so much for providing those statistics.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
It's all research and data laced with real life stories.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
It's been special.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Thank you, thank you, and good luck to you in
the mating marketplace.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
Don't worry.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
It's a bit of an endurance test, but your biggest
value is the word no.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Okay. So I feel like what was a lot. It
was a lot of information. It was a lot of
data and research, which I love because it's like, these
studies are showing what is working the most in these situations,
so it's really good to have that knowledge. It's interesting
having doctor Wendy Walsh come on in comparison to coach Jake,
(41:18):
the last relationship Coach that came on. I feel like
Coach Jake had more of like a men's perspective, whereas
Wendy was more of a woman's perspective, and I think
there's things to take away from both of them. I
think I'll definitely be implementing what Wendy was talking about,
like every time you step out of the house, to
(41:39):
look presentable and to like have a smile on your
face and just look like you are someone who is welcoming,
because I think dating apps is definitely something that I'm
down to try, but I think meeting someone organically is
a great way to go to and I don't want
to completely shut that out as an option. Taking from
(42:04):
both dating experts that we've had on this podcast now,
like keeping it light and polite and not getting too
deep and heavy too quickly is something that I can
see myself implementing into this new dating experience because I
think that will help to avoid like a trauma bond
(42:28):
or like you know, pushing somebody away who like thinks
that that's too much, just like all the trauma dumping
and stuff like that. Like, I'm very aware of the
situation that I'm in and I'm I would like to
present that like this is the situation and matter of
fact about it, because let's be honest, like I do
(42:51):
have some baggage now, but I don't think going too
deep into that is necessary. I want this person to
get to know me as me, so yeah, I'll definitely
be taking what feels good from both of these experts
that I've had on so far and implementing into my
(43:13):
new dating experiences. Thank you so much for listening to
Rachel Goes Rogue. Follow us on Instagram and TikTok for
exclusive video content at Rachel gos Rogue Podcast
This is Rachel Go's Rogue. Welcome back to another episode
of Rachel Goes Rogue. I'm your host, Rachel Savannah Lovis,
and today we're continuing to dive into the dating pool.
I'm so excited to continue on this journey back to dating.
So after having my last dating expert join me, Jake
(00:30):
is awesome, but I think it's important to have different
experts come on to get different points of view because
I guess that's the smartest way to go about it,
getting different advice from different points of view and then
figuring out what works best for me. So as we
dive into these dating topics, I recommend that you do
(00:53):
the same, take what you like and leave the rest.
And that's why I'm so excited to have today's guest
join me as I continue to navigate this dating world.
I'm bringing in doctor Wendy Walsh. She's known as America's
relationship expert. Doctor Wendy Walsh is an award winning television journalist,
(01:18):
a radio host and podcaster, the author of three books
on relationships and thousands of print and digital articles. She
holds a PhD in clinical psychology and has been a
host of her own radio show, The Doctor Wendy Walsh
Show since twenty fifteen. She's also a former Emmy nominated
(01:38):
host of The Doctors as well as former host of
Extra and named the Time Magazine Person of the Year
in twenty seventeen. Thank you so much for joining me,
Doctor Wendy Walsh. I'm really happy to have you here
to talk about dating.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Thank you, it's my favorite topic.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Let's start at the beginning. Since you have a background
in psychology, why is it that some women are more
drawn to men they know are bad for them?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Well, it all has there's two pieces. Actually, one is
attachment style. So women who have had suffered some kind
of abuse in their childhood, whether that abuse was emotional, physical,
or sexual, which makes up more than one third of
all women, by the way, and usually that abuse came
at the hand from the hand of someone they loved,
(02:31):
and so their model for love psychologists might call it
the internal working model for love is mixed up with
pain and longing, so that's familiar to them. And I
always say love isn't about finding happiness, it's about finding
the familiar. So the only thing we can do is
change our model for love and learn to accept and
(02:53):
tolerate kindness.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
So that's one thing.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
The other thing is women like to unquote date up.
They were all so brought up through the patriarchy they
and through Cinderella stories, and we are at a time
in our history where they're actually more working women than
working men. In America right now, we have seen in
the last twenty years the feminization of college campuses. Women
(03:19):
are making great strides getting ahead in education and income,
but they still want a guy who's more educated or
a little older, who makes more money. And that is
a dwindling supply of men. So with the you know,
I hate the word alpha male because it's not true.
But let's just say the high value male mate. He's
(03:39):
going to He has so much choice right now because
all the women are vying for them. So he doesn't
have to work very hard, and he doesn't have to
treat women very well at all. He just has to
you know, I used to say that the price of sex.
So we live in a high supply sexual economy where
the sex is in high supply and the price is
(03:59):
very In nineteen fifty, the price of sex was six
years of courtship and a wedding ceremony in the nineteen eighties,
it was three expensive dates. Today the price of sex
is the barrel bottom price of one well worded text,
and sometimes it's.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Just you wip okay. So what do you make of this?
Is there like a solution to this problem?
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Or I've written about this in all three of my
books and so and I'm working a third book right
now called blue Chip Sex, Having the right kind of
sex at the right time with the right person. You see,
women hold all the cards in a relationship before sex happens,
and they lose all the cards right after sex happens.
So delaying the onset of a sexual relationship while you're
(04:43):
doing some assessment is important. And I want to be
really clear. This is not making him wait, This is
not manipulating him so he'll love me more. This is
you go on, dude, I'm going to protect my eggs,
my bloodstream in my heart until you pass my test.
(05:03):
It's about doing the choosing. It's about putting women in
the power position, in the driver's seat in their relationships.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
So how long would you recommend to wait to help that?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So that's always the big question.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
It's not about how many days or weeks or months.
Although I don't think you can have trust with somebody
after one date. It is about when you can really
trust somebody with your body.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
You see. Sex is still it's a basic biological.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Reality that women hate to think about, but it's basic evolution.
Sex is a much higher risk copy for women than
it is for men. Right, So if men have a
bad sexual experience, it's a quasi bad day. If women
have a bad sexual experience, it might involve falling in
love with a loser because our bodies emit so much
(05:55):
oxytocin and bond us with bad people. It might involve
getting an SDI. Because of our unique biology, we're much
more likely to get an STI.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And it might.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Involve coming down with an eighteen eighteen year case of parenthood. Right, So,
for women, sex is nothing to be trifled with. There
are no strings attached for women. I mean, we're trying
to make the changes birth control and protection and all
those things to make it safer, but it's still not
completely safe for women.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I wanted to go back to the first thing that
you were saying about attachment styles, and I know that
you are an expert in attachment styles, So if you
could like run down really quick for us or for
those who don't know what attachment styles are, the different
types and the type that you would ideally want in
(06:42):
a relationship or want for yourself.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Sure, so I want to remind everybody I'm not a clinician,
I'm not a therapist. I'm a psychology professor, and I
teach developmental psychology. I teach how our attachment style is
formed early in life and what the outcome is in
our adult romantic life. Now as an individual woman, I
also healed my own attachment injuries through years of therapy
(07:07):
and have a very secure relationship now. But I began
this journey studying psychology to solve my own dating problems. Literally,
so I know it from textbook and I know it
from inside. So basically, in the first three years of life,
and some people would say even in the first twelve
months before we are verbal, so we can't store memories
(07:29):
as stories and narratives.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Our brain triples in size in the first year.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
And it starts to form ideas about what's right and
normal in life, and what feels good and what doesn't.
And so this is where if there is neglect or
abuse that the child starts to think, well, this is normal.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I guess this is what love is.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
So there are different ways that attachment can play out,
and I hate to put people into very specific categories
because the truth is we may attach differently to different
people depending on what they ignite in us. But they're
generally you could say that, you know, some people have
more anxiety around attachment. They have an anxious attachment style.
They have easily fears of abandonment. They count the time
(08:13):
between each texts, they count the words in each text.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
They are looking vigilantly.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Searching for signs of abandonment. They're scrolling through their partners
social media wondering. They're trying to get his passwords, trying
to look for the dms, et cetera. These are now
I used pronouns. They're a female with male.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
But a male can have.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
An anxious attachment of style. And that's the dude that
becomes a stalker. That's the dude said, no, i'll pick
you up at work. No, I don't like your talking
to that guy at work. No, I don't want you
dress like that when we're going out, Right, that's his
fear of abandonment, right, This controlling thing that he tries
to do to control his mate.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Now. The cool the fascinating thing about attachment.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Style is that we're mostly unaware of it, and we
go out in life thinking what we're feeling is normal.
And so what we need in order to ignite that
fami ill your anxiety is we need somebody who has
an avoidant attachment style. When I say need, I mean need.
And so we will find people who fear emotional intimacy. Oh,
(09:12):
they may like physical intimacy, but they bolt pretty quickly afterwards.
So they have trouble talking about feelings. They have little
insight into their own feelings. They are very uncomfortable when
you express your feelings. They have become masters at being dismissive,
changing the subject, or indeed putting people down for having feelings.
(09:32):
You know, when they call people needy, they're too needy.
There's no such thing as needy. Everybody has their own
needs that are valid for them, right, And so what
ends up happening is there's this dance that can go
on sometimes for years and decades, where the anxious person
is feeling unfulfilled, the avoidant person is feeling smothered, and
(09:52):
this is a diad that can change. Now, your question,
what should we be looking for well. Americans who have
a secure attachment style are probably married to their college
sweetheart and they're not on dating apps.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
They tend to be people who can both give care
and receive care comfortably. Remember some people can do one
or the other, but it's hard for both. They can
take turns leaning on each other's shoulders. They can express
their feelings in a non confrontational angry way. Hey, you
know kind of bothered me when you did that. I
was wondering what was going on with you?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
And you know, they just.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Have normal conversations instead of what are you doing, you know,
and blaming the other person or trying to control the
other person.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
They live.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
It's not that they don't have conflict. In fact, research
on long term securely attached couples shows that they actually
have far more conflict than the other groups, partly because
they deal with little border skirmishes all the time. They
don't have the big, knockdown, blow them out fights. But
the other ones avoid conflict because they're so afraid of
(10:56):
the breakup that could come from it, So they wait
till everything builds and then it's a huge thing. So
how do you tell if somebody has a secure attachment style, Well,
they respond to your texts and your needs. They don't
run away, they're not dismissive, they're not overly trying to
smother you.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
They're just kind of there.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Like they might say something like, hey, I'll be happy
to pick you up, but if you feel more comfortable
bringing your own car, I understand. See they're trying to
figure out what you like, and so I'll pick you up,
but I control already.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, I would think that someone who has a healthy
relationship with their parents would be a green flag because
typically that would I would think support a more secure
attachment style in somebody relationship wise, Yes and no.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
In fact, my first book was called the boyfriend Test,
How do we evaluate his potential before you lose your heart?
And the question I did it like a Glamour magazine
quiz the whole book, And the question with the biggest
amount of points is what kind of relationship does he
have with his mother? And what you're looking for is
a relationship that's not too close and not too distant.
If he tells you on his first few dates that
(12:09):
he and his mother have a falling out and he
really doesn't like his mother and.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
He has problems. That's a big red flag if he
also says I love my mom. I had the greatest mom.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Oh my god, it's so good. I go to their
place on Sundays, I did my laundry. Sometimes my mom
is so wonderful. You're like, dude, do you need a
wife or you're just looking for a mistress, because it
sounds like you already have a wife. It's your mom, right,
so we're looking for that. A healthy answer would be,
you know, my parents did the best they had they
(12:39):
could with the tools they had. There were some rough
moments growing up, but we kind of got through it,
and I feel like we come to this place now
as adults where we have a fairly good relationship.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
That's a healthy way to describe.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Your family, Okay, And then I wanted to ask you personally.
I've had a hard time pinpointing if I have a
avoidant attachment style or an anxious attachment style, because typically,
like growing up, I've been more of an anxious person.
But I tend to attract men who like to have
(13:16):
control and are very anxious about who I'm going out
with and need to know all the details. It seems
like they fall more in that anxious attachment style, so
then therefore it would make me more of an avoidant.
And also, growing up, I had a harder time expressing
(13:36):
my emotions and identifying my emotions, and I would just
kind of like avoid tough conversations. So I think knowing that,
I think I have maybe more of an avoidant attachment style.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Well, it is a scale, and it also gets ignited
in certain ways with certain people. This is a question
for you and your therapist to worry out. I can
tell you from my experience when I hear you talking
that it reminds me a lot of me when I
was young, And I call it. It's called an anxious
ambivalent attachment style.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Anxious ambivalent is the come closer, come closer.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
I need you, Oh oh, not that close, So they're
come forward, go away people. And an example from my
early life would be I'd be always anxious for the
bad boys to call me back, and then they wouldn't
and I'd be filled with anxiety.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
So I'd fill the gap with a nice guy.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
But if the nice guy actually gave me too much attention,
I would act very dismissive and avoidant to push him away.
It was like this in between space that felt okay
for me.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yeah, interesting, Okay, thank you for that insight.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
You're welcome, But something for you and your therapist to
talk about, for sure, because at the end of the day,
all therapy is, and all any kind of analysis should be,
is for us to have awareness of our feeling and
the behaviors that come as a result of the feelings.
And once we are aware of what's motivating things, that
alone can bring such relief and it can help us
(15:08):
so easily change our behavior.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, awareness is Keith. That's like the first step to
any type of change is being aware of your attachment style,
of your patterns. Is it common for women to have
dating patterns and date the same kinds of people even
after learning they aren't the best for them.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
So my favorite metaphor for the stages of growth, I
don't know if you've heard this one before, is imagine
that bad boy is a hole in the road and
you're walking down the.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Street and you don't see the hole and you fall
in over and over again.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
And then you go to therapy, you learn about your
attachment style, and now you're like, I'm not going to
go out with bad boys anymore. And so you walk
down the street again, and this time you see the
hole and you recognize it, and.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
You still fall in.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Stage three is you walk down that street, you hit
a wall of I am done with this. You see
this bad boy in the early stages, he's showing you
all the behaviors that this is going down a path
that you have seen before, and so this time you
very carefully step around the hole. But stage four is
(16:17):
you take a different street. And there are so many
people who have a secure attachment style who are not
in the radar of somebody who has attachment juries. And
as soon as they're able to literally make a different choice,
all of a sudden, all these people come into the
radar who didn't even know these nice people were there before.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Yeah, I think maybe the part for people that are
refusing to take a different path is unknown and like
not knowing if there is anything.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Oh, change scary. Change is scary.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
So how does one break these patterns?
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Well, you definitely should do it hand in hand with
the licensed therapist, as I did. That's important and the
reason why the Internet talks so much about red flags
is they want people to pay attention to behaviors little
tiny things that happen very early on. I always say
before you hit, because once you're in bed with the person,
it's too late.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
You can't see.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Your brain is now being assaulted by a cocktail of
neuro hormones that are making you feel lust and love,
so you can't even.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
See the red flags anymore.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
And in fact, there's lots of research to show that
early stages of love is filled with delusions. It's the
best drug we have. It's a really great drug until
you hit the withdrawal apart and you go cold turkey.
So those early stage behaviors should be paid attention to
in a very big way. Now, I want to be
careful when I say this, because there are other people
(17:45):
who are avoidant, who use the tiny little flaws and
a normal.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Human as I'm not going about that again. I'm not
seeing them again. Look at that one thing they did.
These are not the people i'm talking too. The women
i'm talking.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
To tend to be women who have an anxious attachment
style and ignore the red flags and proceed on love's
racecourse and crash. And I'm here to say that watching
for that hole and carefully walking around it may be
as simple as So here's an example. This has happened
(18:17):
to me, and I remember it being part of my growth,
meeting somebody and thinking they were hot and getting into
bed with them, and everything's great for a few weeks,
and then you start to feel that little weaning. He's
not texting quite so much, you're doing more of the communication,
maybe you're even making the plans. You're starting to feel it,
you know that feeling where guys are just kind of
(18:37):
weaning you off. Well, in the old days, the old
Wendy would have tried to make him love me, offer
him more sex, show up with better underwear, be craze
for him, show him that I am like the ones.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Ignore, just bring it back to where it was at
the beginning.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
But this time I called the dude up and I said, hey,
I noticed a change in our rhythm. It feels a
little bit like I'm investing more in this than you are.
Can you help me understand what's going on? And dude said, oh, yeah,
kind of noticed that too.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I don't know whatever.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
And I said, okay, well, if you don't know, think goodbye, darling.
I said, what would admit it? I say goodbye darling,
And that is walking away Now. It doesn't mean you
won't feel lost in grief. And I did shed a
few tears in the shower. Justify a blue fine, But
you gotta walk away. When someone started to wean you,
they're sending you a message. Don't get all anxious and
think I am going to beat out all the other girls.
(19:31):
I am going to be the perfect girl. I'll make
him come back around. There's nothing you can do. No
amount of pilates classes, no amount of cute notes sent
on cute cards, no amount of you know, getting waxed
in places you never thought you would are gonna help. Okay,
it's not gonna work. If he's weaning you, he's weaning you,
and move on. He's not the guy for you.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Good advice, excellent advice. Yeah, And it's hard. It's hard
to cut it off because like you have this whole
ca of who this person is in your mind and
you want it to be a certain way, and you
want love, and.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
It's all being in love with potential instead of reality.
You can't fall in love with potential. You have to
fall in love with what is he doing? What's he
actually doing today this week? And the craziest thing is
some people will tell a partner flat out, you know,
(20:28):
I'm really not looking for a long term relationship or
a commitment. I don't see myself getting married anytime soon.
And the anxious person pushes right through that, and I'm like,
they just told you, and you're still going to keep
pursuing this even though that's not what you want. Well,
they'll fall from me. They just saying that, you know, yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
What are your thoughts on dating apps? I'm curious about
this one.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Dating apps are the new nightclub without alcohol, which is wonderful.
Dating apps shouldn't be called dating apps. They should be
called meeting apps. They're just a place to meet someone.
Dating apps should feel no different than in the olden days.
If you're at a nightclub and a dude walks by
and says hi, you either look at him, don't look
at him, say hi back, or don't turn your back whatever.
(21:25):
That's all the dating apps that moment, and from there
it's about relationship skills. It doesn't matter where you meet somebody.
It's all about relationship skills and love can be learned.
So here's the biggest problem with dating apps. They create
a paradox of choice. I want to remind you what
our brains are wired for. Our brains in our anthropological past,
(21:48):
an average human, in the course of their entire life
spain never laid eyes on more than about one hundred
and fifty other humans. Today, you got a thousand people
every day who thumbs away. You're running into them in
urban centers, on subways and nightclubs on dating apps. What
the brain does when it's presented with too much choice
(22:09):
is it has trouble making a choice, and when it
does make a choice, it doesn't value that choice very much.
So dating apps are biohacking your brain to make you
stay addicted to the app instead of finding a relationship.
And the way you undo that biohack is you use
it in a way so that you will not create
(22:29):
paradox of choice. And my prescription is very simple. Never
match with more than two people at once. Only have
two people in your message box, message with them back
and forth until one of them shows you a red
flag you don't like, and get rid of them. Now
if you have not been on the phone, I'm totally
fine with ghosting, because again, the dating app is just
somebody walking by in a nightclub going, hey, what's up?
Speaker 2 (22:50):
And you don't have to respond. It's a nightclub.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
You can look at your girlfriends and ignore them, right,
So that's all that is. Now, if you've been on
a phone with him, which I do suggest you get
on the phone after three texts, then you owe them
a nice of the ghosting text. My ghosting text was, Hey,
it was great talking to you. You know, have fun
at your cousin's wedding next week. You know, I don't
think romance is in the cards for us, but I'd
(23:15):
love to keep you in mind for a girlfriend sometime.
I probably sent that to one hundred guys. Nobody wrote back, bitch.
They wrote back, thank you.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
That's so nice of you. Just be classy anyway, Then.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
You got the one left, that one you go on
one coffee date with, and then you decide whether to
send them the ghost text, And then you go on
match with two others.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
And this way you're only choosing between one or two.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
You don't have twenty people in your boxes confusing your
brain and making you hard to make a choice.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yes, okay, that's good advice, because I was also going
to ask you like dating more than one person at
a time. I feel like there's a lot of advice
out there that it's important to be actually date more
than one person. Otherwise you could potentially just fall in
love with one person without experiencing what else could be
(24:08):
out there.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
That's the voice of paradox of choice talking. Paradox of
choice says, oh my god, there's a bigger, better deal.
Maybe this isn't quite the lie when you know there's
more choice.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
It depends where your goal is.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
If your goal is to have And by the way,
I'm not like some traditionalist who's talking like I'm from
the nineteen fifties. You want a bunch of short term
relationships and so promps in the hay and use protection.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Go for a girlfriend. You can own your own orgasm.
I don't care.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
But if you are looking for a long term, committed
relationship that may involve even reproduction. There's a very clear
set of female mating strategies, and most of those brides
out there you see in bridle magazines and in the
bridal columns have used those strategies. And the strategies are this,
these girls probably don't sleep with more than one person
at once, and they do an assessment before they start
(24:59):
sleeping with the then they try out the relationship and
decide if they want to commit or not. You know,
there's this really interesting research about choice making, and it
is this, when we finally do make a choice to
commit to anything, then we really value that choice. Not
if we have twenty other choices, but if we have
(25:20):
this one and we've committed to because you said, oh, you're.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Falling in love without thinking about all the others. That's
called love.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
That's what you're supposed to do, not think about the others,
just focus on that and fall in love.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Right. So you know, an example would be.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
You bought a Tesla and you're so excited about it,
and there's a piece of you that's maybe like, you know,
I could have got another kind of car. There's so
many electric cars on the market. But you want to
convince yourself and made the best choice in the world.
So what do you do. You run around and tell
all your friends how much you love that Tesla and
how much it is the greatest car in the whole world,
and you are so invested in it and it's a
(25:55):
part of your identity. Now, the same thing happens when
you choose a lover.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Once you see, here's a cool thing about love.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
If you believe you're in a happy relationship, and you
tell everybody you're in your happy relationship, you.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Will be in a happy relationship. Life is a self
fulfilling prophecy. So my answer to that is, yeah, all
in love with one person, date one person, tell everybody
they're great.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Now, if you're feeling pain and you're not happy in
the relationship, then get out.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
What is your stance on long distance relationships?
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Less about my stance and more about the research.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
So the research shows that it's very attractive to people
with an avoidant detachment style, obviously, And the other big
problem with long distance relationships is that it's a series
of little honeymoons. So long distance relationships don't have to
endure the day to day bumps of just the stressors
of traffic and spilled coffees and late for things and
(26:54):
where's my guy and why didn't you show up at
this and whatever, because there are scheduled weekends where it's
all just a honeymoon and wrong. So it's they're not pure reality. Now,
there's some other recent research on long distance relationships I
just came across that I thought was so fabulous that
long distance relationships can be as close and meaningful as
(27:14):
real world relationships if there's one important thing at it,
and it is emotional intimacy. So if you're talking and
face and facetiming better than talking of foresight and sound better.
If you're facetiming with your lover every day and you're
talking honestly about your feelings, even if you had a
bad day, if you can still lean on their shoulder
(27:35):
and talk about it, then your relationship will still grow
because you have the intimacy. A lot of long distance
people are afraid to do that because they don't want
to create rupture because it will screw up the next
honeymoon that's coming, So they don't test the relationship for
emotional closeness for the little things that happened during the week.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
I think it's also interesting that you say, like it's
attractive to an avoidant attachment style per se.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Oh yeah, they don't have to show up for the
day to day emotional stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
What is a good alternative for people who don't love
dating apps to.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Meet somebody everythingwhere in the world.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
If you are in the mating marketplace, then every time
you leave your door, look like you're looking for a date.
That means hair and makeup and wardrobe. Okay, because this
is a job. I say this to men and women
and everybody. If you're slumping around town with your hair
and the nod on your head, or dudes, if you're
in a bunch of baggy sweats, who are.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
You marketing to?
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Once you are set up to market yourself, start catching
people's eyes. When you're pumping gas, look to the person
pumping in the gar next door. When you're at the
Tesla superchargers, when you're in the grocery store, listen ladies
in the vegetable aisle and high heels. Guys come and
ask them dumb questions. Excuse you can ask you a
question like how do you cook this chicken? You buy
(28:59):
the roast water over there?
Speaker 2 (29:00):
But whatever.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
So you want to be open, smile and catch people's eyes.
You see getting people to ask you out. I don't
think women should ask out men, but women should issue invitations.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
And invitations.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Is all about the smile and the body language and
the hair flip. And you should do that in every
place of your life, except be careful with the workplace.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Good advice there.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Oh, and I also want to say there's new research
so I'm also an ambassador for datingadvice dot com, major website,
and they just did a survey of where people are
mostly meeting now because dating apps have been going down. LinkedIn,
because LinkedIn can be a business contact or a date.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Nobody knows.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
You could offer to meet with somebody in your industry
just to talk about certain things, and then you can
decide on your coffee date whether you want to turn
this a little bit personal. And there's no HR department
in LinkedIn. Those sexual harassment lawsuits.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Interesting, it's very interesting. Okay. How quickly do you think
you should be exclusive?
Speaker 5 (30:02):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Drives me crazy when people write to me and say, so,
my boyfriend is my friend then and we've been going
out a month, and I'm like, he's.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Not your boyfriend after what month? Okay?
Speaker 3 (30:12):
And if he says he is, somebody's done an anxious
attachment there. It takes time to do some assessment. In
my book The Boyfriend Test, I suggest that everybody needs
a minimum of a ninety day probation period. It should
be at least three months, and you know that's when
you're starting to come out of your cocoon and introduce
each other to friends and see how they walk.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
In the real world.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Right, so around ninety days is usually the time. I
also do not believe that anybody should consider moving in
together until they've been together a year, Until you've gone
through four seasons and all those holidays, you should not
be thinking of sharing.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Elise back to the dating apps. Has the dating atmosphere
now created more anxious attachment styles?
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Well, the dating atmosphere doesn't create attachment style. It's created
in early life. And what's created more attachment injuries is
modern American capitalism. You see, before the nineteen sixties or seventies,
most families lived together. Often they were multi generational families.
We were more rural and agriculture Like you lived in
(31:20):
a smaller place where you knew everybody in town. All
the mates were vetted for you by family members, and
you felt a sense of place and a village around you. Now,
because modern capitalism needed employees and they needed mobile employees,
they tour workers from those families of origin and from
(31:41):
those villages, and they sent them to big cities. And
there with the big cities, so these parents dragged around
kids in the same way, kids lost contact with cousins
and grandparents, and they had a sense of You know,
we put so much emphasis on individuality in America. Being
independent an individual is not necessarily healthy. We're supposed to
(32:03):
be connected to others, and so people grow to think
I'm not here for a long time. You know, I myself,
I would say that some of my attachment injuries had
to do with the fact that my dad was military
and we moved constantly. By the time I graduated high school,
I had gone to ten different schools. So my attitude
is it, I'm here for a short time, don't want
to get too close, don't know how long it's going
(32:25):
to be right. It is the mobility needed for modern
American capitalism that has been causing breakups of intergenerational families,
been causing divorces as one partner goes somewhere else for
a better job and kids are being dragged through this.
Speaker 5 (32:41):
That's the problem.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Okay, how many dates does it take to know if
this person is right? You?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Typically it's not number of dates, its degree of intimacy.
You know, I love that New York Times column thirty
six questions to fall in love. If you've ever done
those thirty six questions with somebody, there's an app now
for it. They had a psychologist make a series of questions,
thirty six of them, and if you do them on
a date with a partner, it probably not first date
(33:21):
thing because it gets pretty intimate. This psychologist tried it
out on a couple and he ended the thirty six
questions with another proven in all kinds of research way
to fall in love, which is to simply stare into
each other's eyes for four minutes.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Four minutes.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
It's like the eyes are the window to the soul.
So this couple he tried it out on, did it,
and they were married within six months. Most people who
get through the thirty six questions honestly do report feelings
of love at the end of it, because the questions
evoke intimacy. They're not all down and dirty. It takes
a while till you get into childhood trauma and fears
and whatever. It starts like wait and looking for commonality,
(34:03):
but then it gets into questions about we like it
might be a first date. And you're halfway through the
questions and one of the questions is, what are three
things you can say that probably both of us are
feeling right now, so it might be well cold in
the room, we're both cold or mad at that waiter
or something. You're creating commonality right in the brain. And
(34:26):
so it is not about how many dates. It's how intimate,
emotionally intimate, you can get. And the research is clear
the people who stay together the longest may not have
the best sex life, may not be wired financially or
matched financially or educationally, but they should have emotional intimacy.
(34:47):
It is the glue. You know, years and years ago,
you're too young to remember this. When Pamela Anderson and
Tommy Lee were married, you know, some handyman stole a
video of them having sex and it was released and
went around the world. She went to court and sued
them and never got the rights back. It's a tragedy.
She talks about it in her documentary on Netflix, and
it's just beautiful way.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
She talks about it.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
I was less interested in the porn on the video
and more interested to see their intimacy. They called each
other baby, can there be be? Oh, you're so cute,
And in their intimate moments, I saw the connection they had.
Of course, they had two children together. They were together
for a long time, and that's what intimacy is.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Interesting. I haven't heard it that way. When it comes
to dating apps, what do you think makes a strong
dating profile?
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Lots of research out of the Kinsey Institute says this. Okay,
So the biggest problem with dating apps, well, a couple
of problems. I mentioned paradox of choice. The other problem
is most people with the healthy attachment style married the
college sweethearts. They're problem not on the dating apps. So
you have a disproportionate amount of people who have attachment
injuries or disorganization. Doesn't mean they can't heal and aren't
(35:58):
working on them. I mean, you're not looking for a
perfect person. You're looking for somebody who's aware and doing
the work right. But the other thing is you have
people looking for a short term relationship and people looking
for a long term relationship in the same dating pool.
And the best way to get a short term relationship
is to pretend you're looking for a long term relationship. Right,
So people will say, oh, yeah, I'm looking for religions
(36:20):
haven't met the right person. By the way, it's not
about the right person. It's about relationship skills and being
the right learning how to be the right person. So
what dating approfoss The most important thing for women is
to not signal that you want a short term relationship.
So if your pictures are overly sexy, dudes like, I'm
going to say whatever need to to get that body
(36:41):
all right, so you don't have to eat just by
showing up with estrogen. And there are men when men
are looking, I will tell you this. When men go
on a first date, one hundred percent of them they
are thinking in the back of their head, am I
going to meet my wife tonight? Or am I going
to get laid? They're one or the other to them.
(37:01):
So women think if I lead with sex, he'll like me. Yeah,
he will for a short time, but the guy's looking
for a long time commit long term commitment. When they
see overly sexy girls, they think, yes, she's given it
to everybody that's not my wife.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Now.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
It don't have to be a prude, but being overly sexy,
thinking you need to compete with all those sexy women
is not a good idea. There's research to show that
when women smile in a picture, they get in their
primary picture, they get more swipe rights and so luduk the.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Smile works better. There's research to show that when you
wear red. You're getting more swipe rights just wearing red.
For men too, wearing a red shirt, they get more
swipe rights.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Things that don't work is a laundry list of things
you're looking for.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I'm looking for a man who's this. You know, the
guy reads it and he's like, well, you're looking for
a resume. I don't know if I fit right.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
And when men say that about women, we're like, don't
be so judgy.
Speaker 5 (37:56):
Whatever.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
What you want to do is.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Tell a short, cute story about yourself that shows your
personality and a little bit about your life. For instance,
I was helping a woman with a profile a while ago.
And by the way, there is somebody for everybody at
every age, across the whole lifespan.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
And this woman happened to be seventy.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
She happened to have a beach house, and she wrote
a little thing. I helped to write a little thing
about My favorite Saturday is getting up early and lining
up all the surfboards and wetsuits for the grandkids, and
then making pancakes shape like animals. And the other part
of the great Saturday is sending them home by three
(38:42):
pm so I can clean my house and have a
great evening with an adult.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
And like, it's a little story and it tells about life.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
It says I got grandkids, I'm connected to family, I
love them, I have a beach house. I you know
all these things, and all that is a short little
story that tells a lot about your life instead of
the laundry lists. And please people, do not do not
do not list brands. I have seen dating profiles that
people think they're cute. They just list brands. I love
(39:12):
Gucci and Tesla and I blah blah blah. I'm like,
can you be more commercial? O?
Speaker 1 (39:20):
My goodness, Okay, And.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
The other thing is so in my dating profile, my
main picture was me with a headset on a microphone
at my I have a radio show right in the
radio studio, and I was wearing a sweatshirt that said
I'm not for everybody.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
And that made me a little hard to get because.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
It went my fiance, now fiance, we're getting married next month.
Saw He was like, Oh, she may not be for everybody,
but she's for me.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Right.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
You want to be unique to one person. You don't
want to attract thousands of people. You want to drag
one perfect person, So be unique to them what that.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
What that picture said is ooh, she does radio. She
got a big mouth.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
She's a big mouth woman, and she knows her words.
She's not for everybody. She'll walk away ooh. And most
of them went, ooh, bitch, I don't want to deal
with that. Except the guy who loves strong, big mouthed women.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Compatible. Yes, I love it. Oh my gosh. Okay, Well,
thank you so much for joining me today. I feel
like we've kind of went through it all and got
more clarity. And thank you so much for providing those statistics.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
It's all research and data laced with real life stories.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
It's been special.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Thank you, thank you, and good luck to you in
the mating marketplace.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
Don't worry.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
It's a bit of an endurance test, but your biggest
value is the word no.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Okay. So I feel like what was a lot. It
was a lot of information. It was a lot of
data and research, which I love because it's like, these
studies are showing what is working the most in these situations,
so it's really good to have that knowledge. It's interesting
having doctor Wendy Walsh come on in comparison to coach Jake,
(41:18):
the last relationship Coach that came on. I feel like
Coach Jake had more of like a men's perspective, whereas
Wendy was more of a woman's perspective, and I think
there's things to take away from both of them. I
think I'll definitely be implementing what Wendy was talking about,
like every time you step out of the house, to
(41:39):
look presentable and to like have a smile on your
face and just look like you are someone who is welcoming,
because I think dating apps is definitely something that I'm
down to try, but I think meeting someone organically is
a great way to go to and I don't want
to completely shut that out as an option. Taking from
(42:04):
both dating experts that we've had on this podcast now,
like keeping it light and polite and not getting too
deep and heavy too quickly is something that I can
see myself implementing into this new dating experience because I
think that will help to avoid like a trauma bond
(42:28):
or like you know, pushing somebody away who like thinks
that that's too much, just like all the trauma dumping
and stuff like that. Like, I'm very aware of the
situation that I'm in and I'm I would like to
present that like this is the situation and matter of
fact about it, because let's be honest, like I do
(42:51):
have some baggage now, but I don't think going too
deep into that is necessary. I want this person to
get to know me as me, so yeah, I'll definitely
be taking what feels good from both of these experts
that I've had on so far and implementing into my
(43:13):
new dating experiences. Thank you so much for listening to
Rachel Goes Rogue. Follow us on Instagram and TikTok for
exclusive video content at Rachel gos Rogue Podcast
Popular Podcasts
1. Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
2. Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
3. Crime Junkie
If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people.