August 2, 2024 • 38 mins
Rachel sits down with Dr. Hillary Goldsher to dive into her adoption story and how all the emotions that come with the process have affected her life today.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Rachel gos Rogue. Welcome back to another episode
of Rachel Goes Rogue with your host Rachel Savannah Lovis.
Today we're going to expand on a recent episode, I
opened up about my adoption story and I mentioned I
wanted to bring on an expert to dive deeper into
(00:28):
the ways adoption affects a person later in life, and
today I'm excited to be able to do that. I
have my own theories and opinions as to how my
adoption story has affected me, and I'm excited to challenge
those opinions and also learn even more from my guest. Today,
(00:48):
I'm joined by doctor Hillary Goldscher. Doctor Hillary Golcher is
a clinical psychologist whose goal is to guide her clients
to manage complex feelings and issues with and compassion. She
offers support, insight, and solutions to address the most taxing feelings, behaviors,
and issues. In this episode, doctor Culture and I are
(01:13):
aiming toward sharing a balanced view of adoption and that
there are nuances with it. As we explore some of
the feelings and identity issues with adoption, there's also such
(01:34):
positives from that experience, and there's so much selflessness with
the act of adopting a child and also giving a
child up for adoption if you're not ready for parenthood yet.
So let's get into this episode because I really want
(01:57):
to dive deeper into the psychology behind the last episode
I recorded. I'm opening up about my adoption story and
i want to share more about it because I feel
like it's a topic that maybe not as many people
know about because adoption isn't as common as you know,
(02:19):
just your normal standard lineage. So I'm happy to have
you on and I would love to know if you
could explain the difference between an open adoption and a
closed adoption.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, I'm a really specific but critical nuance for people
that have lived in the world of adoption, which is
an open adoption allows for the kiddo involved to still
have communication with birth parents or parents. The terms of
(02:56):
that is usually pretty specified and concretized, but it allows
for that communication to potentially occur from oftentimes from the
moment of the adoption up until the kiddo is eighteen
and beyond.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
And a closed.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Adoption is the opposite of that, where there is an
agreement to not have communication. That doesn't mean kiddos don't
seek out affiliation with birth parents outside of that agreement
when they get older or have the wherewithal to understand
that's a possibility. But that is the agreed upon sort
of legal situation and a closed adoption.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
And just for your context, I've had an open adoption
and it was an in family adoption, so my birth mom,
my birth mom couldn't get pregnant, her sister got pregnant
with me and then add me for her.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Yes, but your situation wasn't open.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
It was open, yes, yes, except for I actually don't
know my birth father so and I haven't tried to
make contact. But yeah, it's it's kind of a unique situation.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, that is a detail that you don't normally hear
in these contexts.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, do you see people with more issues in life
with one type of adoption over the other or yes? Okay,
so can you go into that.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I mean it's I don't know if there's a hard
best rule, but conceptually, people that have a closed adoption
have less options. It's just true. Yeah, they're just less options.
There isn't an established communication line obviously between the kid
and his birth parents, and so since that potential relationship
(04:58):
or at least opportunity for understanding doesn't exist.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
It can cause more.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Confusion if there isn't an opportunity to have answers, or
there isn't an opportunity to have a dialogue, or if
there isn't an opportunity to discuss and process complex feelings
that come up inevitably from adoption. Even if the adoption
is full of love and grace and openness, it's still tricky.
It's still a really, really tricky situation. So a closed
(05:27):
adoption by definition, almost always includes less opportunity to process
and communicate. Open adoption, by contrast, allows for more of
the complete narrative to start from the beginning. The adopted
parents can have a really open discussion about this is
(05:48):
your story, and these were your birth parents. Here are
their names, here's their picture, here's an opportunity to meet them,
and here's what happened, here's how you ended up with us.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
A close adoption, you can.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Still offer that narrative, but you can't fill in all
the blanks and all the details, which is such a
pull for kids that most kids who have been adopted
is to know and to understand their story.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
I'm guessing there has to be like some sort of
identity issues that come up with that and not quite
knowing or not having the full story. And there's theories
that there's this abandonment wound that gets created through adoption,
and there's even a theory that there's an abandonment wound
that gets created even from at birth adoptions. Are those
(06:35):
things true?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Yes, I mean, there's a primitive edict that's pre verbal,
nonverbal to be affiliated with your birth parent. It's a
primitive edict. We all have it, and we may be
able to directly feel it and articulate it or not,
but it's a part of our humanity is to desire
(07:01):
that affiliation. Most people, as I say this, will be
able to identify the emotion that comes up when you
think about your parents, your birth parent, your birth mom,
your birth father, whether or not you were adopted or not.
There is something that we have inside of us to
feel loved, validated, approved, known by our birth parents, and
(07:23):
nothing really changes that even if we're adopted at birth
by loving, amazing parents. There may be some exceptions, so
I want to allow for that possibility. There's folks that
may have had a very different experience that don't have
that desire because their birth parents aren't safe or aren't around,
or they just don't feel that poll. But most people
(07:45):
have that poll. And so no matter how the adoption
goes down. While there may be protocols that make it
easier or not, this wound of feeling abandonment or not
known by someone so critical foundational in your existence is
really hard to reconcile.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Wow, And I'm not saying that it's because of my
adoption or anything, but just after talking to you and
that saying, like the feeling of wanting to be known,
that is something that I've felt in my soul for
a very long time. And yeah, it's just interesting knowing that.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
When you don't have the eyes of your birth parent
on you, there's an almost wordless whole deficit leak, you know,
that can't exactly be filled no matter how much amazing
wonderful things and connection and community you have. That doesn't
(08:56):
mean adopted kids and adults are not okay and whole
and certainly can't be, but it is a very specific
and tricky dynamic to navigate. And like I said, not
everyone feels this way, but I think many people who
faced these kinds of challenges feel that, And I think
(09:17):
it's useful to have that set out loud because it
hits almost like a primitive part, like, yes, I have that,
I experienced that, and I can't quite fill that up.
And even if it can't be filled up by your
birth parent, given your story, it can be filled up
by self love and communication around tricky feelings and beginning
(09:38):
to understand and kind of offer yourself grace and healing
in that like and not painful space.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
How does someone work through processing emotions of feeling abandonment
when it comes to their adoption.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Yeah, I think there's I mean, I'm overly simplifying this,
but I like to think about it in sort of
two bockets. I mean, the first is sort of knowing
your story is a very helpful thing when there's trauma.
In the world of trauma, there's something called narrative therapy,
which is essentially telling your story sort of over and
(10:31):
over and over again until it's more palpable, more digestible,
until your body is not responding to it with a
fight or flight response, until your body can feel it
and hear it and live with it and integrate it.
So telling your story both telling people that are trusted others,
whether it's friends, family, significant other, a therapist, on telling
(10:54):
yourself in various ways in context so your story feels
owned and known, and some of that comes from the
narrating of it, and some of that comes from cultivating
information around it, and so kind of circling back to
what we've talked about initially, that those with open adoptions
often or usually have more opportunity to have a specifics,
(11:16):
you know, to comprotize what happened, and those with closed
adoptions are often seeking that and can or can't fill
in the gaps. So that's a first, more concrete part
is telling your story in various ways, in various contexts
and in various stations in your life. How you feel
(11:37):
about adoption when you're five versus ten, versus twenty, versus
thirty versus fifty changes, so you have to keep telling
your story to understand how it shifts and changes for you.
And then the second piece, and perhaps the more complex one,
is processing the trauma, is dealing with the trauma. And
(11:58):
as we talked about, if the of the trauma is
not having eyes on you through the woman or the
mom and dad that gave birth to you, there isn't
a quick fix to this, you feel that, and it
can show up in different ways at different times. And
so I really look at it, as I said, through
a trauma lens and talking about it and putting words
(12:24):
and feelings to how hard it is, how confusing it is,
how difficult it is to reconcile it.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
It's a huge part of healing from it.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
With trauma, our tendency can be to suppress, and suppression
usually leads to symptoms. The more we keep stuff stuck
in our body, the more our body tries to communicate
with us like this doesn't feel good, I need some help,
And so that stuff shows up in our body through anxiety,
through depressive feelings, through physical symptoms like a stomach ache
(12:57):
or a headache, through panic attacks. Body works really hard
to tell us I need you to pay attention to
my pain points, and so symptoms, irritability. There's so many
that can come up if you aren't really working hard
to talk about what hurts associated with trauma.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, I guess there are those underlying issues that someone
may not realize are present in their life that could
be tied to their adoption.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Interesting, Yes, I mean we can speculate from the conceptualization
of adoption, and I can offer you know, kind of
anecdotal clinical information. All this to say, when one deals
with a feeling of like primitive abandonment, then abandonment can
(13:49):
often become thematic in Luan's life. Right, So you move
through relationship with a certain insecurity and vulnerability and what
we call in my business, you know, insecure attachment, right,
And how that shows up is kind of typically through
a hypervigilance. We're scanning the environment for science that you're
about to be left or excluded or abandoned. And that
(14:13):
kind of hypervigilance comes in a lot of different packages.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
You know.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
It can come through a level of sort of neediness,
a level of anger and irritability, pushing people away before
you get pushed away, right, Becoming overly dependent on someone
with an eye towards holding on to them and ensuring
that you're not going to lose them.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
It really can.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Become uncontained and a source of dysregulation if it's not
taken on and kind of like over and over again, right,
we really seek there's something called repetition compulsion where we
continue to seek out situations that replay our trauma over
and over and over again, attempting unconsciously to get a
different outcome, like this time, I'll make sure that they
(14:59):
don't abandon me. But all your actions end up often
pushing the people away. So really being able to do
very deliberate specific work around, well, how do I show
up when I feel triggered? And how do I show
up when I feel abandoned? How can I interrupt my
natural inclination to engage in hypervigilants and use new tools
(15:21):
to show up in like a more grounded, communicative, vulnerable way.
It is heavy emotional lifting. The way I'm saying it
makes it sound like it could be easy. It's years
and years and years of dedicated work because this is
a primitive trauma, pre verbal trauma. Those are the stickiest.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
And pre verbal, you mean, before being able to speak.
And then what about for the kids under eighteen that
have been adopted, that you know, maybe have been in
foster care or even in an orphanage or went through
some life altering circumstance where their parents weren't able to
(16:02):
take care of them anymore, and that's like post verbal. Yeah,
I'm guessing it still affects them in a certain way
because there's that their own type of trauma that they've
had to deal with and that's shaped them in their
early childhood.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Absolutely, I'm preverbal is just a feature that describes infants
that are adopted, of course before they can speak. So yes,
that's literally what I mean preverbal. And the complication in
that scenario is just that that the trauma occurs before
words are available or the ability to think, which we
(16:45):
call mentalizing, is available, and so excavating that trauma has
its own particular kind of complexity because of that. But
someone that is adopted post verbal, which isn't really a.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Term, but it should be now that you've meant.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
It, has a same, similar, or even greater in some
circumstances level of trauma as well. Right, it doesn't thwart
trauma if you're able to put words to it.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
It's just a nuance.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
That is true for kiddos that have been adopted before
they have words. But right, I mean kids that have
had a lifetime of abandonment and being exchanged from family
to family and sometimes enduring abuse and neglect and eventually
getting adopted or not have their own really specific kind
(17:34):
of devastating trauma that is prolonged and chronic and occurs
at different stages of their journey towards adulthood, and you know,
can really interrupt a sense of stable self. So it
(17:54):
has its own intense complications for kids that go through
a dynamic like that.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah, and also to those listening, this is also like
the psychology behind it and the reality of the situation,
and all of this can affect different people at a
different level. And I don't know, I just feel like
this conversation is maybe a little bit more negative. But
(18:20):
I'm so grateful for my adoption. You know, my parents
really did. They wanted a child so bad and they
were ready for one, and the way I was raised
and nurtured and cared for, I really feel like it
was the best possible situation for me. So, you know,
it's I just feel like maybe the conversation is a
(18:43):
little bit more heavy right now.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Well, I'm so glad you're saying this, because two things
can be true at the same time. And while adoption
can have some like heavy emotional residues pociated with it,
it also can be a worthlessly incredible, amazing gift, right
(19:08):
that the child who's adopted by a family feels chosen
and part of a community and oftentimes rescued for a
scenario from a scenario that wouldn't have served them.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
And so.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
The level of connection and family and affiliation and safety
and security that occurs for kids that have been adopted
is incredible. I mean, when you think about a family
making that decision and bringing in a child as their
own that becomes their own, it's an amazing choice to make.
(19:49):
And oftentimes kids are adopted walk around feeling that sense
of being chosen and thought of and taken care of
and rescued and sae. So I'm so glad you brought
that up. It's one of my favorite sayings that two
things are true at the same time. There can be
super tricky feelings about adoption and there can be amazing
(20:10):
parts of it that can be lifting and expansive. And
there are plenty of folks who've been adopted who don't
feel the things that we're talking about, who feel like
they're in the family that they were supposed to be
in and don't have a lot of space or whole
to think about and process their birth parents that really
(20:35):
look at it as a small part of their.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Story and who they are.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
So I'm glad you're talking about this, And I hope
your listeners aren't taking our initial.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Conversation as negative, because to me, tricky feelings aren't really negative.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
They're just feelings, right, And they're just feelings, And so
if they're feelings of sadness or frustration or confusion, they
are just feelings, and they're important ones to think about
it and talk about and not be labeled as scary
or unwanted percent or just feelings. And some of them,
people who were adopted have felt and will feel and
(21:09):
some people say like I just never felt that way.
To me, it just felt like exactly where I meant
to be. We absolutely in this conversation want to allow
for the spectrum of experiences that people have around adoption.
So I'm glad you're raising that to your listener's attention.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah. Yeah, And as you were talking, I also had
like a visual. I've known some people who have adopted
children recently and they're from a different socioeconomic background or
different race, and I'm sure that can be confusing for
(21:48):
the child, especially in bringing where it's prominently one type
of race and you're being brought up knowing that your
parents look different than you and your peers look different
than you. I'm sure that can mess with your identity.
But then also knowing I think later on that you're
(22:10):
blessed in many ways because the parents that adopted you
were ready to have a child and wanted you. And
that must be, like, you know, a hard thing to.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Tackle, yes, and that falls under that category of two
things can page at the same time. Yet that seems
like such a simple concept on the face of it,
but it's like a complex one to lean into, you know,
But that is true in this scenario that you just
describe in such a significant way, that like, right, the
(22:44):
idea that this family wanted me and took me as
I am, and I'm part of this community and my family,
and I feel affiliated and included and identified and safe
and fortunate. And yet sometimes occasionally, once in a while,
well whatever fits. I notice my difference, and I notice
that I don't have faces that look like mine around me,
(23:07):
and I feel that I feel different.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
I feel conspicuous.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
I feel desirous of having more of my culture represented
in my day to day world, and I don't get
that in the way that I might have had I
stayed with my birth family. And again that doesn't negate
any of the things that we said at the beginning
that I feel.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Fortunate and lucky and affiliated and loved.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
It's just a truth that sits alongside of it, and
so being able to put words to it, to process it,
and thus, in some cases to seek that kind of
affiliation outside of the family if that feels right, right
to seek more exposure to one's culture is a potential
outcome of thinking about that and talking about that and
bringing it to one's own attention. So that to me,
(23:53):
that's quite's so important to talk about tricky feelings knowing
that it doesn't take away from all.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
The amazing feelings they just live alongside it.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
And what ways can adoption impact an individual's approach to
attachment and relationships both romantically and platonically.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Well, we sort of touched on this before, and we
can talk about it more expansively. And first the disclaimer
that we were just talking about for some people, it doesn't.
For some people, they feel incredibly secure with their adopted
family and feel chosen, taken care of, affiliated, identified with,
(24:34):
and go on to be able to apply that secure
attachment to friendships and romantic relationships. So when I move
into the potential complexities I want to make sure that
we're allowing for that truth, which is true for so many.
And there are folks that have been adopted that feel
(24:57):
that sense of abandonment and feel that sense of disaffiliation.
And that's some primitive, unconscious level fear being left or
fear they're not worthy of being chosen or kept, so
to speak. And so if that becomes a core wound
(25:17):
for a person but adopted or not, but a core
wound for a person who was adopted, since that's the
context that we're talking about, of course, that can show
up in romantic relationships, in our friendships, or in the
work environment, and like we were talking about before, often
what it leads to is this intense hypervigilance. Did I
(25:37):
just do something that's going to push this person away?
Did I do something that is going to make them
see me as having last value? Did I do something
that's going to make them go away? And so overthinking
how they show up and move through that relationship. So
it can look like over accommodation, or it can look
(25:58):
like irritability and frustration or even anger, because that intense
sphere around abandonment gets a person to oftentimes show up
in a way that's like dysregulated, that's especially sensitive to dynamics,
that's always looking for signs that they're being excluded, and
they might express it through anger or impatience or disconnection
(26:25):
or you know, kind of punishment to the person they
perceived wounded them, And so it can get tricky if
you're I like to talk about the difference between between
being in the feeling or outside of the feeling. So
if you're in the feeling, it's really hard to identify, like, Oh,
(26:45):
I'm behaving in a way that's having an impact on
the people that I care about, that's not working, that's
causing distance in friction, not affiliation. It's really hard to
notice that because you're just in the feeling and sort
of acting out, so to speak. And we build up
a muscle to be outside of the feeling. Ooh, I'm
like feeling this. What's this about? I just said something
(27:07):
in a way that I don't feel good about. What's
going on? What do I think this is connected to?
Let me take a moment in self soothe and how
that I want to show up in a way that's different,
that encourages a feeling of increased stability inside of me.
And affiliation outside of me. Again, when I'm saying these things,
it is very complicated. In some cases, it's hard to
(27:30):
stand outside our feelings when we're triggered and there's trauma.
But that's the goal, is to be able to stand
outside the feeling and make choices that are different than
the ones we execute when we're inside the feeling and
feeling flooded and overwhelmed.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Yeah, and what you're talking about could be applicable to
any human, whether you're adopted or not. And what I'm
hearing you say, the hypervigilance can almost manifest or form
as an anxious attachment style in relationships, like always being
(28:10):
anxious about your partner or think overthinking like oh what
are they? What are they thinking about me? Am I
being accepted in this group? All of that like anxious energy.
I could see that. And then also how you were
saying the oversensitivity and the frustration and acting out could
(28:31):
be like an avoidant attachment style too, where you're subconsciously
pushing people away because you feel like you're going to
be abandoned in the end.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Anyway, it's perfectly put. That's exactly right, and that's and
really important way you.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Highlighted, which is this hypervigilance is not exclusive to people
who have been adopted, right. All sorts of traumas and
expertsperiences can lead to this.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Families where you're with your.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Birth parents, but there is emotional distance or emotional neglect,
difficult romantic relationships that are abusive or unkind right, bullying
at school that left you feeling ostracized or disaffiliated.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
There's all sorts of.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Life experiences that can cause this kind of hypervigilance. And yes,
really inform our attachment style and thus really inform all
of our relationships, not just the romantic ones, but friendships
and family, extended family, work, slash, colleagues, And so it's
(29:45):
such important work if it's applicable to figure out your
attachment style and how you're impacting people around you and
be able to begin to unpack it if it's impacting
those you love in a way that doesn't doesn't feel
good to you or them.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Yeah, I mean this is more of a personal anecdote,
and I wanted to just get your expertise because when
(30:26):
I spent the three months at the recovery center that
I went to, we did a from birth to eighteen
childhood timeline where we went through every major trauma that
we could remember and work through that and process through it.
And I didn't realize that my birth in itself was
(30:53):
a traumatic event for me. So my birth mom had
to have an emergency c section, and I was a
premium baby. The umbilical cord was wrapped around my neck
and I was losing oxygen to my brain, so they
had to go in there very quickly and take me out.
(31:13):
I guess I was blue and and I had to
take time in the nick you and I didn't consider
that as a trauma because when you're born, you don't
remember any of that. Is that something that does affect you?
Speaker 3 (31:36):
Potentially?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yes, again potentially yes. It doesn't mean it does for
everyone that had a complex birth story. But we uh
in the businesses I said before, often call infancy right
after birth, like the fourth trimester.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
People might have already heard this.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
We're the only like species that are born without the
ability to like do anything really right. We can't like
walk or talk or move. We're totally dependent on our caregivers.
And there's often discussions around like we come out to early,
they're not ready babies like so sensitive to all of
the environmental factors, and so when you come into the
(32:18):
world in a way that's extra difficult, it adds to
that sort of shock transition between the comfy womb where
it's like warm and all your nutrients are available twenty
four to seven, and you know you're particularly when you're
in the nicu, you're not necessarily being touched all the time,
you're not getting nutrients twenty four to seven.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
And your way into the world.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Was medically traumatic. That's just a factual truth, and so
it can. It doesn't always result in a tricky journey
for an infant, but it sometimes does. Babies that have
more traumatic bursts can sometimes be a bit morecolicy, a
bit more difficult to soothe, and a bit trickier to regulate,
(33:06):
both as infants and as they get older through toddlerhood, etc. Again,
not always true, but can be true. And when you
think about the difference between coming into the world that
way and coming into the world in a more quote traditional,
easier way where you get to just be with your
birth parent, fed and cozy, it can make a difference
(33:28):
to your emotional center and whether or not that trauma
is marked internally and contributes to your ability to self
soothe as an infant or throughout your adult life. The
story around it has meaning to the person telling it
(33:49):
or hearing it or understanding it. I'm sure as you
think about it you're telling it now, you first heard it,
you had feelings about it. That was you, this small, helpless,
little infant coming into the world in that sort of
shocking way, and not having a birth mama that stayed
(34:11):
with you the whole way through after that, I'm not
sure how quickly you were adopted out, But to not
stay with the original person that witnessed that trauma is
also a difficult part of that story. So it's important
to not just try to identify, well, is.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
That dramatic for an infant.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
But also to just understand the meaning you make of
it internally, how it makes you feel in your body
and in your heart and your mind when you tell
that story, so you can integrate it in a way
that feels accurate.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Yeah. I just wanted to say a few words to
someone that's listening that's considering giving their baby up for adoption.
I think that it's a really great option because if
you're not ready fully to have a child, child and
to be a parent. There are other people in the
world that like that is their one dream in life
(35:08):
right now, and I think it's so important to like
be ready to be a parent, Otherwise there's risk of
neglect in the childhood that can affect the child long term.
And obviously, no childhood is going to be perfect. We
all experience trauma. That's part of life. But setting your
(35:32):
child up for success is so important. And adoption is
such a beautiful thing. Oh yes, So I just wanted
to say that and then to all of those who
have adopted a child, like that is such a selfless
act of love, and I I think it's such a
(36:01):
beautiful thing. And I just wanted to send you some
love your way and some words of encouragement because raising
a child is difficult. I'm sure. I don't know, because
I'm just like nurturing my inner child right now and
that's all I can handle at this moment. But adopting
a child is such a beautiful thing. You're giving this child,
(36:25):
you know, a new opportunity at life.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
I really just want to echo your sentiments because we
didn't spend any time talking about it in this podcast,
but people, mamas that make the decision to give up
their child for adoption are heroes, right. I mean, that
is an impossible decision. Words can't even underscore the gravity
(36:52):
of coming to that conclusion and how painful it is
and how ultimately selfless it is. Understanding that the resources
you have internally or externally aren't sufficient or safe is
an incredible act of giving, and so I just really
want to make sure that my sentiments around that are
(37:16):
known as well. And you're also right that families that
make the decision to take on a kiddo from a
birth mother or a family it can create the most
amazing kind of family and affiliation and sense of healing.
So I'm really glad we're creating space with that, because
(37:39):
this is about all the thing's associated with adoption, not
just the tricky things.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yeah, it's always such a pleasure talking to you, doctor Culture.
Thank you so much for coming on today's podcast and
sharing your knowledge on this sensitive topic.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Thanks, thank you so much for listening to Rachel Goosrogue.
Follow us on Instagram and TikTok for exclusive video content
at Rachel gos Rogue Podcast
This is Rachel gos Rogue. Welcome back to another episode
of Rachel Goes Rogue with your host Rachel Savannah Lovis.
Today we're going to expand on a recent episode, I
opened up about my adoption story and I mentioned I
wanted to bring on an expert to dive deeper into
(00:28):
the ways adoption affects a person later in life, and
today I'm excited to be able to do that. I
have my own theories and opinions as to how my
adoption story has affected me, and I'm excited to challenge
those opinions and also learn even more from my guest. Today,
(00:48):
I'm joined by doctor Hillary Goldscher. Doctor Hillary Golcher is
a clinical psychologist whose goal is to guide her clients
to manage complex feelings and issues with and compassion. She
offers support, insight, and solutions to address the most taxing feelings, behaviors,
and issues. In this episode, doctor Culture and I are
(01:13):
aiming toward sharing a balanced view of adoption and that
there are nuances with it. As we explore some of
the feelings and identity issues with adoption, there's also such
(01:34):
positives from that experience, and there's so much selflessness with
the act of adopting a child and also giving a
child up for adoption if you're not ready for parenthood yet.
So let's get into this episode because I really want
(01:57):
to dive deeper into the psychology behind the last episode
I recorded. I'm opening up about my adoption story and
i want to share more about it because I feel
like it's a topic that maybe not as many people
know about because adoption isn't as common as you know,
(02:19):
just your normal standard lineage. So I'm happy to have
you on and I would love to know if you
could explain the difference between an open adoption and a
closed adoption.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, I'm a really specific but critical nuance for people
that have lived in the world of adoption, which is
an open adoption allows for the kiddo involved to still
have communication with birth parents or parents. The terms of
(02:56):
that is usually pretty specified and concretized, but it allows
for that communication to potentially occur from oftentimes from the
moment of the adoption up until the kiddo is eighteen
and beyond.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
And a closed.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Adoption is the opposite of that, where there is an
agreement to not have communication. That doesn't mean kiddos don't
seek out affiliation with birth parents outside of that agreement
when they get older or have the wherewithal to understand
that's a possibility. But that is the agreed upon sort
of legal situation and a closed adoption.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
And just for your context, I've had an open adoption
and it was an in family adoption, so my birth mom,
my birth mom couldn't get pregnant, her sister got pregnant
with me and then add me for her.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Yes, but your situation wasn't open.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
It was open, yes, yes, except for I actually don't
know my birth father so and I haven't tried to
make contact. But yeah, it's it's kind of a unique situation.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, that is a detail that you don't normally hear
in these contexts.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, do you see people with more issues in life
with one type of adoption over the other or yes? Okay,
so can you go into that.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I mean it's I don't know if there's a hard
best rule, but conceptually, people that have a closed adoption
have less options. It's just true. Yeah, they're just less options.
There isn't an established communication line obviously between the kid
and his birth parents, and so since that potential relationship
(04:58):
or at least opportunity for understanding doesn't exist.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
It can cause more.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Confusion if there isn't an opportunity to have answers, or
there isn't an opportunity to have a dialogue, or if
there isn't an opportunity to discuss and process complex feelings
that come up inevitably from adoption. Even if the adoption
is full of love and grace and openness, it's still tricky.
It's still a really, really tricky situation. So a closed
(05:27):
adoption by definition, almost always includes less opportunity to process
and communicate. Open adoption, by contrast, allows for more of
the complete narrative to start from the beginning. The adopted
parents can have a really open discussion about this is
(05:48):
your story, and these were your birth parents. Here are
their names, here's their picture, here's an opportunity to meet them,
and here's what happened, here's how you ended up with us.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
A close adoption, you can.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Still offer that narrative, but you can't fill in all
the blanks and all the details, which is such a
pull for kids that most kids who have been adopted
is to know and to understand their story.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
I'm guessing there has to be like some sort of
identity issues that come up with that and not quite
knowing or not having the full story. And there's theories
that there's this abandonment wound that gets created through adoption,
and there's even a theory that there's an abandonment wound
that gets created even from at birth adoptions. Are those
(06:35):
things true?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Yes, I mean, there's a primitive edict that's pre verbal,
nonverbal to be affiliated with your birth parent. It's a
primitive edict. We all have it, and we may be
able to directly feel it and articulate it or not,
but it's a part of our humanity is to desire
(07:01):
that affiliation. Most people, as I say this, will be
able to identify the emotion that comes up when you
think about your parents, your birth parent, your birth mom,
your birth father, whether or not you were adopted or not.
There is something that we have inside of us to
feel loved, validated, approved, known by our birth parents, and
(07:23):
nothing really changes that even if we're adopted at birth
by loving, amazing parents. There may be some exceptions, so
I want to allow for that possibility. There's folks that
may have had a very different experience that don't have
that desire because their birth parents aren't safe or aren't around,
or they just don't feel that poll. But most people
(07:45):
have that poll. And so no matter how the adoption
goes down. While there may be protocols that make it
easier or not, this wound of feeling abandonment or not
known by someone so critical foundational in your existence is
really hard to reconcile.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Wow, And I'm not saying that it's because of my
adoption or anything, but just after talking to you and
that saying, like the feeling of wanting to be known,
that is something that I've felt in my soul for
a very long time. And yeah, it's just interesting knowing that.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
When you don't have the eyes of your birth parent
on you, there's an almost wordless whole deficit leak, you know,
that can't exactly be filled no matter how much amazing
wonderful things and connection and community you have. That doesn't
(08:56):
mean adopted kids and adults are not okay and whole
and certainly can't be, but it is a very specific
and tricky dynamic to navigate. And like I said, not
everyone feels this way, but I think many people who
faced these kinds of challenges feel that, And I think
(09:17):
it's useful to have that set out loud because it
hits almost like a primitive part, like, yes, I have that,
I experienced that, and I can't quite fill that up.
And even if it can't be filled up by your
birth parent, given your story, it can be filled up
by self love and communication around tricky feelings and beginning
(09:38):
to understand and kind of offer yourself grace and healing
in that like and not painful space.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
How does someone work through processing emotions of feeling abandonment
when it comes to their adoption.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Yeah, I think there's I mean, I'm overly simplifying this,
but I like to think about it in sort of
two bockets. I mean, the first is sort of knowing
your story is a very helpful thing when there's trauma.
In the world of trauma, there's something called narrative therapy,
which is essentially telling your story sort of over and
(10:31):
over and over again until it's more palpable, more digestible,
until your body is not responding to it with a
fight or flight response, until your body can feel it
and hear it and live with it and integrate it.
So telling your story both telling people that are trusted others,
whether it's friends, family, significant other, a therapist, on telling
(10:54):
yourself in various ways in context so your story feels
owned and known, and some of that comes from the
narrating of it, and some of that comes from cultivating
information around it, and so kind of circling back to
what we've talked about initially, that those with open adoptions
often or usually have more opportunity to have a specifics,
(11:16):
you know, to comprotize what happened, and those with closed
adoptions are often seeking that and can or can't fill
in the gaps. So that's a first, more concrete part
is telling your story in various ways, in various contexts
and in various stations in your life. How you feel
(11:37):
about adoption when you're five versus ten, versus twenty, versus
thirty versus fifty changes, so you have to keep telling
your story to understand how it shifts and changes for you.
And then the second piece, and perhaps the more complex one,
is processing the trauma, is dealing with the trauma. And
(11:58):
as we talked about, if the of the trauma is
not having eyes on you through the woman or the
mom and dad that gave birth to you, there isn't
a quick fix to this, you feel that, and it
can show up in different ways at different times. And
so I really look at it, as I said, through
a trauma lens and talking about it and putting words
(12:24):
and feelings to how hard it is, how confusing it is,
how difficult it is to reconcile it.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
It's a huge part of healing from it.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
With trauma, our tendency can be to suppress, and suppression
usually leads to symptoms. The more we keep stuff stuck
in our body, the more our body tries to communicate
with us like this doesn't feel good, I need some help,
And so that stuff shows up in our body through anxiety,
through depressive feelings, through physical symptoms like a stomach ache
(12:57):
or a headache, through panic attacks. Body works really hard
to tell us I need you to pay attention to
my pain points, and so symptoms, irritability. There's so many
that can come up if you aren't really working hard
to talk about what hurts associated with trauma.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, I guess there are those underlying issues that someone
may not realize are present in their life that could
be tied to their adoption.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Interesting, Yes, I mean we can speculate from the conceptualization
of adoption, and I can offer you know, kind of
anecdotal clinical information. All this to say, when one deals
with a feeling of like primitive abandonment, then abandonment can
(13:49):
often become thematic in Luan's life. Right, So you move
through relationship with a certain insecurity and vulnerability and what
we call in my business, you know, insecure attachment, right,
And how that shows up is kind of typically through
a hypervigilance. We're scanning the environment for science that you're
about to be left or excluded or abandoned. And that
(14:13):
kind of hypervigilance comes in a lot of different packages.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
You know.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
It can come through a level of sort of neediness,
a level of anger and irritability, pushing people away before
you get pushed away, right, Becoming overly dependent on someone
with an eye towards holding on to them and ensuring
that you're not going to lose them.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
It really can.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Become uncontained and a source of dysregulation if it's not
taken on and kind of like over and over again, right,
we really seek there's something called repetition compulsion where we
continue to seek out situations that replay our trauma over
and over and over again, attempting unconsciously to get a
different outcome, like this time, I'll make sure that they
(14:59):
don't abandon me. But all your actions end up often
pushing the people away. So really being able to do
very deliberate specific work around, well, how do I show
up when I feel triggered? And how do I show
up when I feel abandoned? How can I interrupt my
natural inclination to engage in hypervigilants and use new tools
(15:21):
to show up in like a more grounded, communicative, vulnerable way.
It is heavy emotional lifting. The way I'm saying it
makes it sound like it could be easy. It's years
and years and years of dedicated work because this is
a primitive trauma, pre verbal trauma. Those are the stickiest.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
And pre verbal, you mean, before being able to speak.
And then what about for the kids under eighteen that
have been adopted, that you know, maybe have been in
foster care or even in an orphanage or went through
some life altering circumstance where their parents weren't able to
(16:02):
take care of them anymore, and that's like post verbal. Yeah,
I'm guessing it still affects them in a certain way
because there's that their own type of trauma that they've
had to deal with and that's shaped them in their
early childhood.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Absolutely, I'm preverbal is just a feature that describes infants
that are adopted, of course before they can speak. So yes,
that's literally what I mean preverbal. And the complication in
that scenario is just that that the trauma occurs before
words are available or the ability to think, which we
(16:45):
call mentalizing, is available, and so excavating that trauma has
its own particular kind of complexity because of that. But
someone that is adopted post verbal, which isn't really a.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Term, but it should be now that you've meant.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
It, has a same, similar, or even greater in some
circumstances level of trauma as well. Right, it doesn't thwart
trauma if you're able to put words to it.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
It's just a nuance.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
That is true for kiddos that have been adopted before
they have words. But right, I mean kids that have
had a lifetime of abandonment and being exchanged from family
to family and sometimes enduring abuse and neglect and eventually
getting adopted or not have their own really specific kind
(17:34):
of devastating trauma that is prolonged and chronic and occurs
at different stages of their journey towards adulthood, and you know,
can really interrupt a sense of stable self. So it
(17:54):
has its own intense complications for kids that go through
a dynamic like that.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah, and also to those listening, this is also like
the psychology behind it and the reality of the situation,
and all of this can affect different people at a
different level. And I don't know, I just feel like
this conversation is maybe a little bit more negative. But
(18:20):
I'm so grateful for my adoption. You know, my parents
really did. They wanted a child so bad and they
were ready for one, and the way I was raised
and nurtured and cared for, I really feel like it
was the best possible situation for me. So, you know,
it's I just feel like maybe the conversation is a
(18:43):
little bit more heavy right now.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Well, I'm so glad you're saying this, because two things
can be true at the same time. And while adoption
can have some like heavy emotional residues pociated with it,
it also can be a worthlessly incredible, amazing gift, right
(19:08):
that the child who's adopted by a family feels chosen
and part of a community and oftentimes rescued for a
scenario from a scenario that wouldn't have served them.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
And so.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
The level of connection and family and affiliation and safety
and security that occurs for kids that have been adopted
is incredible. I mean, when you think about a family
making that decision and bringing in a child as their
own that becomes their own, it's an amazing choice to make.
(19:49):
And oftentimes kids are adopted walk around feeling that sense
of being chosen and thought of and taken care of
and rescued and sae. So I'm so glad you brought
that up. It's one of my favorite sayings that two
things are true at the same time. There can be
super tricky feelings about adoption and there can be amazing
(20:10):
parts of it that can be lifting and expansive. And
there are plenty of folks who've been adopted who don't
feel the things that we're talking about, who feel like
they're in the family that they were supposed to be
in and don't have a lot of space or whole
to think about and process their birth parents that really
(20:35):
look at it as a small part of their.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Story and who they are.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
So I'm glad you're talking about this, And I hope
your listeners aren't taking our initial.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Conversation as negative, because to me, tricky feelings aren't really negative.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
They're just feelings, right, And they're just feelings, And so
if they're feelings of sadness or frustration or confusion, they
are just feelings, and they're important ones to think about
it and talk about and not be labeled as scary
or unwanted percent or just feelings. And some of them,
people who were adopted have felt and will feel and
(21:09):
some people say like I just never felt that way.
To me, it just felt like exactly where I meant
to be. We absolutely in this conversation want to allow
for the spectrum of experiences that people have around adoption.
So I'm glad you're raising that to your listener's attention.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah. Yeah, And as you were talking, I also had
like a visual. I've known some people who have adopted
children recently and they're from a different socioeconomic background or
different race, and I'm sure that can be confusing for
(21:48):
the child, especially in bringing where it's prominently one type
of race and you're being brought up knowing that your
parents look different than you and your peers look different
than you. I'm sure that can mess with your identity.
But then also knowing I think later on that you're
(22:10):
blessed in many ways because the parents that adopted you
were ready to have a child and wanted you. And
that must be, like, you know, a hard thing to.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Tackle, yes, and that falls under that category of two
things can page at the same time. Yet that seems
like such a simple concept on the face of it,
but it's like a complex one to lean into, you know,
But that is true in this scenario that you just
describe in such a significant way, that like, right, the
(22:44):
idea that this family wanted me and took me as
I am, and I'm part of this community and my family,
and I feel affiliated and included and identified and safe
and fortunate. And yet sometimes occasionally, once in a while,
well whatever fits. I notice my difference, and I notice
that I don't have faces that look like mine around me,
(23:07):
and I feel that I feel different.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
I feel conspicuous.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
I feel desirous of having more of my culture represented
in my day to day world, and I don't get
that in the way that I might have had I
stayed with my birth family. And again that doesn't negate
any of the things that we said at the beginning
that I feel.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Fortunate and lucky and affiliated and loved.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
It's just a truth that sits alongside of it, and
so being able to put words to it, to process it,
and thus, in some cases to seek that kind of
affiliation outside of the family if that feels right, right
to seek more exposure to one's culture is a potential
outcome of thinking about that and talking about that and
bringing it to one's own attention. So that to me,
(23:53):
that's quite's so important to talk about tricky feelings knowing
that it doesn't take away from all.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
The amazing feelings they just live alongside it.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
And what ways can adoption impact an individual's approach to
attachment and relationships both romantically and platonically.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Well, we sort of touched on this before, and we
can talk about it more expansively. And first the disclaimer
that we were just talking about for some people, it doesn't.
For some people, they feel incredibly secure with their adopted
family and feel chosen, taken care of, affiliated, identified with,
(24:34):
and go on to be able to apply that secure
attachment to friendships and romantic relationships. So when I move
into the potential complexities I want to make sure that
we're allowing for that truth, which is true for so many.
And there are folks that have been adopted that feel
(24:57):
that sense of abandonment and feel that sense of disaffiliation.
And that's some primitive, unconscious level fear being left or
fear they're not worthy of being chosen or kept, so
to speak. And so if that becomes a core wound
(25:17):
for a person but adopted or not, but a core
wound for a person who was adopted, since that's the
context that we're talking about, of course, that can show
up in romantic relationships, in our friendships, or in the
work environment, and like we were talking about before, often
what it leads to is this intense hypervigilance. Did I
(25:37):
just do something that's going to push this person away?
Did I do something that is going to make them
see me as having last value? Did I do something
that's going to make them go away? And so overthinking
how they show up and move through that relationship. So
it can look like over accommodation, or it can look
(25:58):
like irritability and frustration or even anger, because that intense
sphere around abandonment gets a person to oftentimes show up
in a way that's like dysregulated, that's especially sensitive to dynamics,
that's always looking for signs that they're being excluded, and
they might express it through anger or impatience or disconnection
(26:25):
or you know, kind of punishment to the person they
perceived wounded them, And so it can get tricky if
you're I like to talk about the difference between between
being in the feeling or outside of the feeling. So
if you're in the feeling, it's really hard to identify, like, Oh,
(26:45):
I'm behaving in a way that's having an impact on
the people that I care about, that's not working, that's
causing distance in friction, not affiliation. It's really hard to
notice that because you're just in the feeling and sort
of acting out, so to speak. And we build up
a muscle to be outside of the feeling. Ooh, I'm
like feeling this. What's this about? I just said something
(27:07):
in a way that I don't feel good about. What's
going on? What do I think this is connected to?
Let me take a moment in self soothe and how
that I want to show up in a way that's different,
that encourages a feeling of increased stability inside of me.
And affiliation outside of me. Again, when I'm saying these things,
it is very complicated. In some cases, it's hard to
(27:30):
stand outside our feelings when we're triggered and there's trauma.
But that's the goal, is to be able to stand
outside the feeling and make choices that are different than
the ones we execute when we're inside the feeling and
feeling flooded and overwhelmed.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Yeah, and what you're talking about could be applicable to
any human, whether you're adopted or not. And what I'm
hearing you say, the hypervigilance can almost manifest or form
as an anxious attachment style in relationships, like always being
(28:10):
anxious about your partner or think overthinking like oh what
are they? What are they thinking about me? Am I
being accepted in this group? All of that like anxious energy.
I could see that. And then also how you were
saying the oversensitivity and the frustration and acting out could
(28:31):
be like an avoidant attachment style too, where you're subconsciously
pushing people away because you feel like you're going to
be abandoned in the end.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Anyway, it's perfectly put. That's exactly right, and that's and
really important way you.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Highlighted, which is this hypervigilance is not exclusive to people
who have been adopted, right. All sorts of traumas and
expertsperiences can lead to this.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Families where you're with your.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Birth parents, but there is emotional distance or emotional neglect,
difficult romantic relationships that are abusive or unkind right, bullying
at school that left you feeling ostracized or disaffiliated.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
There's all sorts of.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Life experiences that can cause this kind of hypervigilance. And yes,
really inform our attachment style and thus really inform all
of our relationships, not just the romantic ones, but friendships
and family, extended family, work, slash, colleagues, And so it's
(29:45):
such important work if it's applicable to figure out your
attachment style and how you're impacting people around you and
be able to begin to unpack it if it's impacting
those you love in a way that doesn't doesn't feel
good to you or them.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Yeah, I mean this is more of a personal anecdote,
and I wanted to just get your expertise because when
(30:26):
I spent the three months at the recovery center that
I went to, we did a from birth to eighteen
childhood timeline where we went through every major trauma that
we could remember and work through that and process through it.
And I didn't realize that my birth in itself was
(30:53):
a traumatic event for me. So my birth mom had
to have an emergency c section, and I was a
premium baby. The umbilical cord was wrapped around my neck
and I was losing oxygen to my brain, so they
had to go in there very quickly and take me out.
(31:13):
I guess I was blue and and I had to
take time in the nick you and I didn't consider
that as a trauma because when you're born, you don't
remember any of that. Is that something that does affect you?
Speaker 3 (31:36):
Potentially?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yes, again potentially yes. It doesn't mean it does for
everyone that had a complex birth story. But we uh
in the businesses I said before, often call infancy right
after birth, like the fourth trimester.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
People might have already heard this.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
We're the only like species that are born without the
ability to like do anything really right. We can't like
walk or talk or move. We're totally dependent on our caregivers.
And there's often discussions around like we come out to early,
they're not ready babies like so sensitive to all of
the environmental factors, and so when you come into the
(32:18):
world in a way that's extra difficult, it adds to
that sort of shock transition between the comfy womb where
it's like warm and all your nutrients are available twenty
four to seven, and you know you're particularly when you're
in the nicu, you're not necessarily being touched all the time,
you're not getting nutrients twenty four to seven.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
And your way into the world.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Was medically traumatic. That's just a factual truth, and so
it can. It doesn't always result in a tricky journey
for an infant, but it sometimes does. Babies that have
more traumatic bursts can sometimes be a bit morecolicy, a
bit more difficult to soothe, and a bit trickier to regulate,
(33:06):
both as infants and as they get older through toddlerhood, etc. Again,
not always true, but can be true. And when you
think about the difference between coming into the world that
way and coming into the world in a more quote traditional,
easier way where you get to just be with your
birth parent, fed and cozy, it can make a difference
(33:28):
to your emotional center and whether or not that trauma
is marked internally and contributes to your ability to self
soothe as an infant or throughout your adult life. The
story around it has meaning to the person telling it
(33:49):
or hearing it or understanding it. I'm sure as you
think about it you're telling it now, you first heard it,
you had feelings about it. That was you, this small, helpless,
little infant coming into the world in that sort of
shocking way, and not having a birth mama that stayed
(34:11):
with you the whole way through after that, I'm not
sure how quickly you were adopted out, But to not
stay with the original person that witnessed that trauma is
also a difficult part of that story. So it's important
to not just try to identify, well, is.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
That dramatic for an infant.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
But also to just understand the meaning you make of
it internally, how it makes you feel in your body
and in your heart and your mind when you tell
that story, so you can integrate it in a way
that feels accurate.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Yeah. I just wanted to say a few words to
someone that's listening that's considering giving their baby up for adoption.
I think that it's a really great option because if
you're not ready fully to have a child, child and
to be a parent. There are other people in the
world that like that is their one dream in life
(35:08):
right now, and I think it's so important to like
be ready to be a parent, Otherwise there's risk of
neglect in the childhood that can affect the child long term.
And obviously, no childhood is going to be perfect. We
all experience trauma. That's part of life. But setting your
(35:32):
child up for success is so important. And adoption is
such a beautiful thing. Oh yes, So I just wanted
to say that and then to all of those who
have adopted a child, like that is such a selfless
act of love, and I I think it's such a
(36:01):
beautiful thing. And I just wanted to send you some
love your way and some words of encouragement because raising
a child is difficult. I'm sure. I don't know, because
I'm just like nurturing my inner child right now and
that's all I can handle at this moment. But adopting
a child is such a beautiful thing. You're giving this child,
(36:25):
you know, a new opportunity at life.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
I really just want to echo your sentiments because we
didn't spend any time talking about it in this podcast,
but people, mamas that make the decision to give up
their child for adoption are heroes, right. I mean, that
is an impossible decision. Words can't even underscore the gravity
(36:52):
of coming to that conclusion and how painful it is
and how ultimately selfless it is. Understanding that the resources
you have internally or externally aren't sufficient or safe is
an incredible act of giving, and so I just really
want to make sure that my sentiments around that are
(37:16):
known as well. And you're also right that families that
make the decision to take on a kiddo from a
birth mother or a family it can create the most
amazing kind of family and affiliation and sense of healing.
So I'm really glad we're creating space with that, because
(37:39):
this is about all the thing's associated with adoption, not
just the tricky things.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yeah, it's always such a pleasure talking to you, doctor Culture.
Thank you so much for coming on today's podcast and
sharing your knowledge on this sensitive topic.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Thanks, thank you so much for listening to Rachel Goosrogue.
Follow us on Instagram and TikTok for exclusive video content
at Rachel gos Rogue Podcast
Popular Podcasts
1. Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
2. Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
3. Crime Junkie
If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people.