August 6, 2024 • 54 mins
Rachel is brought to tears while discussing her former "Vanderpump Rules" co-star Jax Taylor’s recent mental health facility check-in. Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist Joe Girillo also joins to discuss the matter, including why Taylor did this so publicly.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Rachel Goes Rogue. Welcome to a special episode
of Rachel Goes Rogue. I'm your host, Rachel Savannah Levis,
and today we are doing something a little bit different.
We're covering a recent headline. As you may have seen,
(00:26):
Jax Taylor announced he is entering a mental health facility.
I don't expect everyone to understand me, but I do
want to make it clear that it is important for
me to stand up for what I believe is right.
And I know that standing up for people that have
gone through the darkest, darkest stuff that JAXX is going
(00:52):
through right now, that's what's right, That's what feels right.
I'm someone who has first hand experience with seeking treatment.
I wish nothing but the best for Jack's I have
spoken about how much it has helped me, so I
really hope that Jax receives the same benefits that I
(01:13):
did through my recovery. Today we're talking to Joe Jirillo,
who is a distinguished therapist with specialties and behavioral issues
and personality disorders. Joe has lots of expertise on recovery
and addiction specialization, and I felt like it was only
(01:35):
suiting to have him on today, I to talk about
the most recent headline with Jax Taylor, who announced that
he has admitted himself to a mental health facility. Now
we're not sure what type of mental health facility, if
it's impatient, outpatient, what that may be. But this is
obviously an important topic for me to speak about because
(01:58):
I had a similar experience in making the decision to
check myself in. I want to add more context to
the situation, and I want to share oh my thoughts
and feelings and all of that with someone who's an expert.
So so, thank you so much, Joe Derillo. Glad you're here.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Thank you nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Okay, So when you hear that someone is entering treatment,
it sounds it sounds scary. What are some misconceptions about
entering a treatment facility?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
That's that's a really good question. Usually people don't attempt
to join a treatment facility or go into treatment unless
they already are at a point where they recognize that
they're having problems they can't deal with by themselves. When
it comes to most of my experience has been working
in chemical dependency, as far as the hospitalization part. Other
(02:52):
addictions that are that are related but not chemically related
gambling addictions, sex and love addiction, et cetera, et cetera.
That they all are basically kind of like looked at
in the same way because the same parts of the
brain line up when they're stimulated as do when people
are chemically independent. Part of the problem with addiction in
general is the difficulty being able to recognize what's going
(03:15):
on with you for yourself. So it's a rare occasion
in my experience when somebody says, oh boy, I need
help and science himself into treatment, Generally somebody else's behind
and kind of nudging him and going, honey, I love you,
but man, man, I think that this is bigger than
just you, so maybe we should get something help.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Just to empathize with where Jacks is at and the
decision that he made. I'm sure there was this internal
battle that he was facing, and I'm sure there was
probably somebody that really does care about him seeing him
spiral in some sort of way, and I'm sure this
has been something that he has been grappling for quite
some time.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yeah, and you know, I don't know details either about
your hospitalization or Jack's hospitalization at all, but I've watched
thousands of people go through treatment. In the course of
my career, I worked seventeen years, almost eighteen years in
psychiatric hospitals literally doing that, working with people throughout the day,
(04:14):
doing groups and stuff like that. Most in that time
in addiction treatment.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, can you explain to people what the different types
of treatment looks like?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Sure that they're okay. Let's take chemical dependency as a
model for instance. There are different attitudes, different different approaches
towards dealing with addiction, different philosophies and reality there's one
philosophy which is the one that I probably subscribed to
more than any, which is once that addiction is a
(04:47):
developmental problem that once it comes to a specific point,
it's not much good to try to rationalize your way
through it, to be able to like think your way
into recovery. Recovery being that you're a life that's not
disabled by what it is your addictive practices. And so
the most important thing, probably in any treatment for any
(05:08):
kind of addiction is a period of time where you're
removed from your current environment, so you have actually had
the ability to almost like the detox that we talk
about in addiction is more a matter well for chemical dependency.
It's a matter of not taking any medication or any
kind of drug or alcohol at all for a period
(05:30):
of time long enough so that your mind actually starts
to see things clearly, your grain actually starts to heal
as well as the rest of you, and that takes
weeks and months. I remember years ago when I was
working over at loss in Senis, I asked the question
of the doctors how long does a person have to
be sober so to speak of their addiction before their
(05:51):
mind is working the way it did before the addiction
took power over them. And the answer was generally about
two years. And it's a developmental healing that takes about
that long before you're at the point and you're never
quite the same anymore, but you come to a recognition
this is something you used to work for me. I
can't do this anymore because now it works against me,
(06:13):
and I need to be able to maintain that position
if I'm going to survive it, because everything inside of
me is going to be telling me I should just
go back to doing what I was doing before, because
that felt right. No matter what the thing is that
you are struggling with, its addiction to that piece is
really essential in chemical dependency. A lot of times they
(06:34):
focus on twelve step programs as being the continuation or
maintenance it helps people be able to stay sober. Nobody,
for instance, nobody really gets sober in AA per se.
They usually get sobered by some sort of effort like
a rehab or something like that, detox and rehab. But
the maintenance of how you continue forward to be able
(06:54):
to live differently requires it you establish some rules for
yourself that you didn't follow by before, and A gives
a framework for that. It's really quite unique any of
the twelve step programs do saying basically that you need
to recognize that you have a problem. The problem is
not going to go away, and you need to continue
to be mindfulness throughout the course of your life or
(07:15):
it will flare up again. In other words, you're putting
your problem inter a mission. Some programs for recovery will
basically I don't want to criticize them, but they'll spend
a lot of time campering you and doing kind of
a pseudo therapy, which they think is supposed to be
the healing part of what it is that goes on.
(07:35):
But it's a dual connection. When I was working at
loss and Cinas. For instance, they didn't want us to
do any deep therapy with people while they were detoxing
off of chemicals. They wanted to do the kind of
stuff that's going to be the right you're right and
now stuff to be able to get you in a
position to stay sober and then down the line a
couple of months then will get you going in like
(07:55):
a deeper therapy that's going to be looking at the
parts of your life that may be up to this
type of thing and how you are going to change
so that you don't want back.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Any one hundred percent. Yeah. I remember when I was
checking myself into the Meadows, which is the recovery center
that I spent three months at, and they took me
off of all my medication even though I was diagnosed
with adhd ADD And I remember, obviously everyone is coming
(08:25):
in they're at their own personal rock bottom. So people
are exhausted and they are just like trying to function.
They're trying to understand life and how they got to
this point. Also accepting the fact that your way isn't
working for you anymore and you need to figure out
what a better way to live your life. Is, and
(08:47):
so like being ready to surrender to that and and
take in that knowledge is also a process once you're entering. Also,
I remember the Meadows had like heavy group therapy, so
that first full week I was dedicated to attending everything,
but I was falling asleep in the group session and
(09:09):
nodding off, and I was like apologizing, I'm so sorry
that I keep nodding off. I don't mean to be rude,
and everyone was very accepting. They're like, no, we get it,
it's fine. And then once I was able to get
back on my medication that helps me keep focused. And
I had to take the Tova test to verify that
I actually was diagnosed with ADHD and I wasn't like
abusing a substance. They were able to put me back
(09:32):
on my medication, and then I was much more present
and able to kind of take in the information. And
it's a whole learning process too. The way that each
facility is structured, they probably teach you how to talk
about your experience in a way that's respectful to yourself
and respectful to others. And it's learning a new structure
(09:53):
of how people communicate in this setting, so that you're
able to communicate effective and it's able to be received
by others. It's a big learning process. You know.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I'm so glad that you've said that, because you know,
it's always occurred to me that there's something about addiction
that is kind of a delusional disorder where it's really
hard for you to see yourself. I always I used
to tell people in group all the time, the flaw
in human beings is that we've got two eyes in
the front of our head pointing away from us, and
that just by nature, it's hard for us to see
ourselves clearly. With addiction, that's twice asar So the focus,
(10:30):
the focus has to be on group therapy because in
group therapy, what happens is you're hearing your story coming
out of other people who are sharing, and then you
can hear it, but you can't sure, you can't even
bring it up for yourself and tired.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Oh yeah, that is such a point to drive home.
And it also gives you perspective of how we project
onto others our own stuff and recognizing that others are
able to hold up this projection screen in a way
for us to see ourselves within ourselves. It's information that
(11:06):
we receive back from their story, hearing their story and recognizing, oh,
these are the similarities. This is what I also experienced,
processing that and then being able to express that and
connect in a way. It's very relational, yep.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Absolutely, and there's power in that that you can't get
from anywhere else. It's just it's a kind of a
magic when you see it happening that it's really hard
to explain to people unless in there.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yeah, okay, like let's get into Jack's just a little bit.
Because understanding this headline is also understanding the nature of
the beast. With vander Pump Rules, when you sign a
contract to agree to share your life for the rest
of the world to see, basically and to experience with
(11:59):
you because tltimately, I think the reason why we connect
with reality TV so much is through seeing our experience
in other people and then therefore learning more about ourselves.
So when you sign a contract to display your life
on vander Pump Rules, I can completely understand why Jacks
(12:23):
decided to share with the world that he checked himself
into a recovery center, because that is the reality of
the situation, that is what is happening in his life,
and so I believe I understand why Jack's publicly announced
he was going to treatment. But for those who may
(12:43):
not understand why and who are criticizing him for sharing
it publicly, why do you think he decided to make
a public statement instead of addressing it privately and dealing
with it privately? And I have my own understanding, But
(13:04):
for those from the outside looking in and kind of
judging the situation for him being so public with this statement,
kind of like posting books and all that stuff, why
do you think that he decided to go that route?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Not knowing Jackson? Of course, being a therapist, it's unfair
for me to be able to say what I think
he was thinking because I don't know the first thing
about it.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Correct good point, but I.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Will say this, there is still a stigma out there
about addiction and about recovery and about getting help that
is really super unfortunately, and I would say pauses hundreds
of thousands of deaths in America every year, where people
think that I'm just going to gust through my problem
and no one else needs to know about it, because
(13:47):
if they do, they're going to think less of me,
And in my experience, almost always that's not true at all.
In my experience in the current age, when people go
get help, other people around them actually get courage to
go get help themselves. So it may be, if I'm
guessing you know it, maybe the Jacks felt like it
(14:09):
was actually a service to the public. Maybe for him
to be public about this and say, look, I need
help and I'm going to go get it. Maybe he
was part of the fact that he didn't want to
totally give up a contract that was going to end
if you run into treatment without making it a part
of his story. Or maybe it was just that, you know,
he felt that he didn't have the energy to be
(14:31):
able to keep it a secret. The media can be
pretty heavy duty when it comes to loss and senus.
I'm sorry, don't need to jump around. Loss and Cenus
has been traditionally a place where movie stars and rock
stars and entertainment people would go and spend time and
so forth. As a result, there were certain i'll call
them loosely news companies that would have helicopters over head
(14:54):
taking pictures and drones and things like that, while there
were patients in our care that were a high profiles,
so to speak, and it was really unfortunate because it
sensationalizes at that level what's going on with people in
a way that's really not helpful and actually can be destructive.
I saw a number of people who are in treatment
(15:16):
recognize that they were being found out and wanted to
leave as a result of it, who really needed to
be talked off the ledge to be able to stay
and actually focus on what was important rather than what
the media might say and the public might think. And
so I totally get that. I can say this when
people focus on their own recovery and they get well,
(15:38):
it's almost like the old saying the best revenge is
success that when you were healthy. Other people get nothing
from that. It's something positive in the end, And in
the process they made bad mouth it until they suddenly
recognize the old crap. What was I thinking?
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah, yeah, when I And the reason why I'm drawing
this back to myself is to not make it about me.
I want to make that very clear. It's so that
I can be relational to the situation that we see
happening once again in a different circumstance. It's a little
bit different, but it's it's the overarching theme is the same,
(16:22):
and the context. The deeper stuff is ultimately the same,
even though it's showing up a little bit differently. Ooh yeah,
I was met with a lot of judgment and scrutiny.
I decided not to publicize that I was seeking treatment,
and unfortunately, somebody who was in the recovery center the
(16:45):
first week that I checked in, and it was her
last week, she recognized me and got too excited. I
can empathize and understand where she was coming from with,
you know, being excited to tell a friend of who
the heck she just saw at the meadow that got
out And then you know, that was heart wrenching because
(17:05):
that was out of my control, and I wanted it
to be sacred. I wanted it to be like, I'm
just focusing on myself. I need to mute out all
the noise. But then once that happened, the press took
that and then twisted it and then started saying that, no,
I'm not actually at a mental health facility, I'm at
a spa. So then that was the narrative that was
being put out and the irony of all of that,
(17:28):
and the full circle moment is Jack's was one of
the people saying that he knows for a fact that
I was at a SPA, So I just want to
bring that context into this space to understand, like, this
is something that is so important to talk about, and
the reason why I'm talking about it right now is
(17:50):
not to put judgment on anybody. I don't even judge
Jack's honestly, Like, I think I can empathize with his
moment of judging me for getting treatment and actually, like,
maybe this may be my own projection, and I'm aware
of that, but I can rationalize the fact that he
(18:10):
probably was suppressing something within him, truly wanting to get treatment,
because he was probably grappling with this for quite some time,
suppressing that and then projecting that onto me, saying like, no,
there's no frickin way she's checking herself into a mental
health facility. Who the heck would do that? I share
as hell would it, And at that time, he wouldn't
(18:32):
because he hadn't yet, And so I can completely empathize
with where he was coming from, and I hope that
this experience. I can only hope that this experience becomes
full circle for him so that he can have more
empathy with people who you know, are actually seeking treatment
and actually are wanting to become a healthier version of themselves.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
You know, at the risk it sounded like I understand
what's going on with someone who I had never met.
I would say that that that's going to be clear
indication of the quality of the sobriety if afterwards he
recognizes that. The reason I'm saying that is because addiction
has a tendency to bring us to the very worst
of ourselves. Okay, I mean it develops some of you know, it's.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
It.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
The addiction itself creates character flaws. Whereas people think that
your character flawed and that's why you're an addict, and
that's not that's not true. The character flaws are the
result of trying to survive in your addiction and doing
the only things that possibly can do. And none of
them are very upfront and straight. You know, most of
them are duplessness and deceitful and you know, hiding and
(19:44):
so forth. I totally respect anybody's choice to be able
to get some without it being in the public eye.
You know, not not to talk a lot about AA,
but I mean that program started one hundred years ago,
and they called it Alcoholics Anonymous because basically it's nobody's
business that yours, that you have this problem and you're
trying to get sober. Although the people close to us
(20:05):
almost always know there's something going on with us, they
just can't put a finger on it necessarily. And so
there's that, you know. And like I said, I'm not
gonna you know, honk on the Big Book or anything
like that. But the twelve steps of a are really
interesting in the sense that the first step is the
only one that talks about a chemical right or the
(20:25):
thing that you're addicted to. It says, we recognize we
were powerless over whatever your drug choices or whatever your
addiction is, that our lives had become unmanageable. If you
can't wrap your head around that first part, you're never
going to be able to deal with the stuff that
is what the stuff of addiction is about that you
have to The next eleven steps don't say anything about
(20:46):
it an object of dependency at all. They talk about
how to live different.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Interesting stuff, very interesting. Would it be a fair statement
to say that, like, you have to grapple with the
fact that you have to accept the things you cannot
(21:14):
change and encourage to change the things that you can,
and recognizing that you actually do have a problem. Admitting
it is the first step, and maybe that may be
the hardest step because you won't be able to get
the resources in the support that you need in order
to tackle it until you admit that you have a problem.
And a big part of AA and recovery programs is
(21:36):
the community and the people who you know. Like ultimately,
when you go through the twelve steps, you now know
that you have a message to carry to all of
those who also deal with addiction, and it is your
duty to help those people and it fulfills your soul.
So there are people that want to help others and
(21:57):
they step into this place of leadership and guidance because
we have been for the people who are grappling with addiction.
We have been placing power in a substance or a
person to take us out of our pain and to
numb us from what we are not healed from. Ooh yeah,
(22:20):
And the only way you can really heal is through
others in your community. And that is why it's so so,
so so so important to look at your environment, to
look at your work environment, look at your everyday life.
What is your routine, what are the things that you're
doing for your soul, what are the things that make
you happy? Are you really happy or are you just
(22:40):
trying to get by getting a paycheck? And like selling
your soul for money in order for a means too
meant to have some sort of false freedom when in
reality you're trapped. It's a golden handcuffs type of situation.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Absolutely, absolutely, there's no saying that you use in the program.
The only thing that has to change is everything, which
is doesn't mean that you necessarily have to like, you know,
go live, you know, on a kibootz or something like that,
but what it means is that if you're not willing
to change whatever it is it's required to change to
be able to stay sober, you won't, you know. And
(23:19):
it's interesting to hear you talk about it because I
noticed that there's times when you're talking about it, it's
almost like your breath is taken away because you get
it so deeply from what you experienced of your of
your own addiction. You know that that it's it should
be the kind of thing that takes your breath away
because we're so incapable of recognizing what's going on while
(23:39):
we're in it, except that maybe we don't know what
we're doing. We're scared, we need help, and we don't
even know how to ask for it. Quite often. And
then when you're when you're away from it for a
while and able to remain abstinate, so to speak, which
is just just the beginning part of it, you look
back on it and you have this tremendous sense of
what the hell was I thinking? You know, I don't
(24:01):
think I was thinking anything. It's like my addiction was
thinking for me and making decisions that kept me for
taking care of myself.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, and it's a and this is where the piece
of compassion comes in because it was used as a
survival mechanism. Yes, because like your body, your brain is
so smart, and you are going to find ways to
survive in a high stress, chaotic environment where your soul
(24:29):
is not fulfilled. You will find the thing outside of
yourself that will bring you some sort of relief and
escape from it all. And I do feel like and
I'm not a man, so I can't speak to this
because I haven't experienced it. And I'm happy that you
are a man, so I can ask you personally. I
(24:50):
feel like there's a piece with the toxic masculinity and
suppressing your emotions, not feeling all your emotions, and the
message that society gives me men that if you cry,
you are weak. If you are vulnerable, you are weak.
And in reality, the vulnerability and the ability to recognize
(25:11):
and allow yourself to feel all of your emotion is
the strongest thing we can do as human beings. Right.
Can you speak to that as a man? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (25:25):
I speak that as a human, but as a man
in particularly because I recognize that I'm a man as well,
and I'm really happy about that. I like being a man.
But there's a lot of baggage that goes along with it,
part of which it is to even ask for help
or say I think I might have been wrong sounds
like weakness. And the last thing in the world that
Amanda is allowed to show in this world is weakness,
(25:45):
because it means they're a failure, you know. And so
to be able to actually understand that there's a reason
that I ended up in the position I'm in and
there's no way I'm going to survive this unless I
get help, is that's a big step. That is a huge,
huge stuff. I don't know if it's really that easier
(26:07):
for women to be honest with you, there's a stigma
for men, but at this point in our development, I
think the women probably encourage encounter of the same thing.
For minute, it's like, I can't take time off for
my work. If I take time off for my work,
I can't tell you the number of people I watched
leaf treatment in the middle of it because their business
was going to fail if they didn't, and the women
(26:29):
that would would do the exact same thing for the
very same reason my career. I need to be in
Chicago tomorrow and I have to leave it and then
I'll come back. Okay, I really promise it doesn't happen,
you know. Or even my kids need me at home,
you know, or my mother needs me to take care
of her. It's like it's always the.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Same, exactly. Yes, yes, yes, it's the feeling the need
to prioritize your family. And I'm sure there is some
sort of validation that you get from being needed by
others in some sort of way and feeling like this
is a selfless thing for me to do, to not
take time away from my family to focus on myself,
(27:09):
like I need to The thought process right of somebody
deciding not to enter treatment because they want to prioritize
their family. In air quotes, would be like, it's a
selfless thing to sacrifice my mental well being for my
family because they need me in air quotes, But in reality,
(27:30):
your family needs the healed version of yourself, And so
when you are deciding to go to treatment, like that
is the ultimate form of self care. And for the
people saying that that is selfish, I was told that
me seeking treatment was selfish and I had to grapple
(27:54):
with that and really look at myself and see, like,
am I being a selfish person right now? The messaging
that I was getting from the public, it was a
really really really big mind twist, and I thank goodness
I had therapists like on call and therapy every single
day to process through it, because it was really heavy,
(28:17):
and it really prevented me from like going full in
in my recovery because I was grappling with all the
outside noise and trying to figure out, like, how do
I trust myself again?
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah that I ran four different groups every single day
when I was working in the recovery center over at
Los Ancinos, so called the Briar Unit, and it was
really quite a magical place when some miracles happen. And
I don't say that lightly because I'm not like a
magical thinking guy. But the four groups basically would start
with a step group where people were actually doing some
writing and journaling on each one of the steps one
(28:53):
at a time, and doing a presentation in front of
everybody about how they related to the questions regarding that step.
The second group was one called it was a meditation group.
The second group of the day would be mindfulness, where
we actually learned ways to be able to tork ourselves
down and so forth and be able to take a
more mindful approach to life. The third group of the
(29:15):
day was relapse prevention, which was let's talk about all
the ways you're going to go back to doing what
you were doing before, because if we don't talk about
them straight up front and admit to it, we're going
to be vulnerable to it. So at the very least,
let's talk about it, so when you're ready to do that,
you remember this conversation and maybe the help.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
And then recovery education, which is let's talk about the
biology of this, the psychology of this, the spirituality of this,
and how all of those have been affected so four
separate groups. In the relapsed prevention group, the big question
always was what is the number one reason that you're
convinced you need to leave treatment? Right? And there is
(29:53):
nobody in that room ever that said, well, I'm completely
convinced I need to stay here. There was always that
element to doubt or life. I need to get back
to all these things that you know, if you were
to complete the sentence, really what it would be would
be I need to get back to my stone stealth
that the rest of the world has gotten used to
that I'm convinced they need of me. And that's what
(30:18):
people are really struggling with when they're in treatment, Like
I don't know if I'm going to be useful if
I'm sober. I don't know if I'm ever going to
have fun again if I'm sober. I don't know how
people are going to see me or how really how
am I going to see myself if I.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Get so m Yeah, I mean, just you saying that
has made me realize something really monumental about my particular experience.
Because I was getting so much public shame that I
literally did not want to leave. I was like, oh,
(30:54):
I know I have nowhere else to be. I don't
want to be out there. I don't want my phone,
I don't want to look at that stuff. I don't
want to do that. The only thing that was the
outside source was the person that I was involved with,
the codependent relationship that I was involved in. I was
still speaking to that person in the meadows, very limited,
(31:18):
and as time went on, it got shorter and shorter
until it was completely cut off. But I had no
desire to leave, and I knew that, Like that's part
of the reason why I extended longer, because I knew
I needed more help. I was still calling him, and
I knew I needed help. I knew there was something
(31:40):
more for me. They did some parts work with the
group that you have to go through all the basic
forty five day teachings and learnings and therapy before you
can graduate into a more advanced group that goes even
deeper and gets more to the root cause, and that
the parts inside of you that are at conflict with
(32:01):
one another and identifying those and validating those and understanding
where the motives are coming from, so you have complete
awareness and could be a functional adult. And so I
knew I needed that too. I was like, that's a
big part for me because I had these conflicting thoughts
in my mind constantly my whole life. So it really
(32:24):
was exactly what I truly needed to evolve into the
healed person that I have become today. And now I
get to share this message to those who need to
hear it the most. And there is a reason why
this is being brought up in this way. Again, there
(32:46):
is a reason why we seek our information through the
form of media, and this is exactly the demographic that
we're talking about. The viewers that tune into vander Pump
Rules want to, like I said, relate to others on
the television screen. So even if this is a storyline,
even if they do implement this in the valley, I
(33:09):
think I don't think that's a bad thing. I think
ultimately that is for the greater good. This is the
reason why there's reality TV, and the reason why people
are interested in topics like this and discussing it is
because there is a discussion to be had. There is
something here that is so important, and it is so
(33:31):
important to have these kinds of discussions and share it
with the larger audience because it is going to reach
people that are going to see this and take something
that they hear today and reflect on their lives so
that they can start healing themselves, and in turn, it's
a trickle down effect. It's it's healing the world, right.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
It's it's interesting when you're talking about this because while
I was working at Loss and Cenas, MTV put together
a program called Celebrity Rehab. It was very it was
it wasn't the first recovery related show reality TV show,
but it it pretty much took the drama and accentuated
(34:15):
the drama part of it in a rather unfortunate way,
because all people saw was like the crazy acting out
behavior and stuff like this, and people getting in trouble
and people acting badly and stuff like that, which that
in and of itself really didn't help people understand addiction
or the treatment. So media has a real deep responsibility
(34:36):
of being able to present this stuff in a way
that's wise, which unfortunately, I don't think that the media
or politics is necessarily all that good and being read
by wisdom. So it really requires it. Whoever is producing
shows like I really really takes it, treats it with
respect and delicacy. The other thing is I don't mean
to be like an agenda person here, but one of
(35:00):
the things that's really difficult about rehab these days is
that most people can't afford rehab unless they've got some
sort of insurance, and when they've got insurance at all,
it's never enough for what's required to be able to
stay well. Most places will pay for most insurance companies
will pay for detox where you're out of the life
(35:21):
threatening situation, and then they'll pay maybe a little bit
day by day to rehab itself after the detox, residential
treatments sometimes a little bit. Unfortunately, they require you to
fail lower levels of treatment so that you need higher
levels of treatment, and they won't pay for it unless
you fail the lower level of treatment, which really takes
(35:42):
people to a very dangerous place, especially if they know
that if I relapse, they'll pay for longer next time.
The old programs like fifty years ago, back then me
even maybe thirty years ago, we're one year and two
year program where people went away. It was like a
(36:03):
monastic approach to dealing with stuff, and I'm not sure
that people necessarily stayed sober and longer. I'm not really
sure if the length of sobriety is the goal necessarily,
I don't. I don't think so. But programs today people
are they're they're lucky if they can stay in treatment
for like a week, two weeks, three weeks, anything passed
(36:24):
their detox alone. And if they can, they're some of
a lucky few. If you've got private funding or an
organization that can help, that's fantastic. But insurance doesn't make
it any easier for people to get sober. And that's
something that really needs to be looked at in a
serious way because hospitals and rehabs they need to be
able to survive, they need to be able to make
(36:46):
a living. And whether or not they're they're overcharging, I
mean they get they get a reputation from being spatlike
for that very reason. The cost is tremendous and a
lot of times only people who are wealthy can afford it.
Are very connected that that is real shame.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yes, yes, yes to all of that. And it's also
why it's so important for me to share what I've
learned there, because I know that other people need this
information and it's it's resonating with people because it's not
just it's addiction as a whole, but also, like relationship wise,
(37:27):
everyone deals with relationship issues, everyone has struggles relationally, and
that's why it's so applicable to humanity as a whole.
And I just wanted to touch back really quick to
you know, the main assumption right now of people assuming
that Jack's admitted himself to a mental health facility for
(37:51):
the show or for a storyline. Since cameras are up
from filming right now, that may be an assumption. And
my response to that is the timing of it all
is completely irrelevant. It really doesn't matter when, Like regardless
if Jack's was checking in now while the show is filming,
(38:14):
or if he was checking himself when the show was airing,
or if the show was completely not airing at all,
it really doesn't matter. When he was going to check
himself in it, it was going to be faced with
the same public scrutiny and questioning.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, yeah, I would, I would think so, yeah, I
would think so yea.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
So let's go back to we were talking about how
men and women deal a little bit, like the standards
of society that places a expectations on men versus women.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Yeah, I think I got.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
When there's children involved in a family. What's the best
way to approach talking about this topic to the children involved.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Wow, that's a really great question there. You know, there's
a lot of different thoughts about this. The first thing,
most parents don't want their kids to understand or know
what it is that they're struggling with. But I got
to tell you something. In my experience, kids know there's
something going on, and when you don't explain to them
in reality what the thing is and the way the
kids can to understand, it's worse because then they're if
(39:40):
addiction stands by anything, it's denial in silence. Okay, those
things keep addiction going. When you pull one of those
two things out, the whole thing collapses, all right. So
if you are upfront about it and go, honey, I
need to go away for a little while to a hospital.
I'm going to be, you know, a couple of miles away.
And the reason is because my body has developed an
(40:01):
inappropriate relationship to a chemical that I've been using. And
I feel really bad about this. But the only avenue
get well is if we're apart for a little while
while I'm taking care of this and to help them
understand the other aspect, which No one wants to talk
about the genetic predisposition to pass addiction down, even behavioral addictions,
not just chemical addictions, from one generation to the next
(40:25):
is enormous. They say that. They say that the stats
showed that about one out of every ten people in
America at least develop a chemical dependency problem of some
sort during the course of their life. That's enormous number
of people.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Right.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
If you have a parent or a grandparent that had
a problem with chemical dependency in your bloodline, you're five
times more likely to develop the problem yourself. If both
sides of your family contained problems with addiction, you're ten
times more likely than the average person developer a problem.
(41:01):
That means that for you to think that your kids
aren't going to be affected by this if you don't
tell them, is a huge mistake. Now, case in point,
I'm an addict in recovery myself. I got sober when
my wife went to treatment for alcoholics. That was twenty
years ago. We just celebrated a twenty years sober anniversary
and thank you very much. My grandfather that was a
(41:26):
serious alcoholic that no one wanted to talk about it.
We had the blessing and curse that just before we
kids were born, the grandkids were born, Grandpa stopped drinking completely,
and no one ever told us that Grandpa had struggled
with this problem. Had I known that I had addiction
in my family in my genes when I was a
(41:46):
teenager and I discovered alcohol, and I found that I
wanted to do this all day, every day because it
was the only thing that felt right. That may have
helped me tremendously. I don't know, you know, there's no
way for me to get now looking back on it,
but I can't imagine that we do our kids anything
but a tremendous service. You know, if your kid, if
(42:07):
you have sickle cellia in your family, you have diabetes
in your family, if you have a cancer history in
your family, you would tell your kids, you know, we
need to watch out for this because it's a family's thing,
you know. And so to not share that with your
kids in a way that they're going to be able
to find useful is a real mistake. That's my personal
orientation to it.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Yeah, And my personal orientation to it is there's some
serious truth to that. Because I just released a podcast
episode about my adoption story and my adoption process, and
I was adopted at birth, raised by my adopted parents.
It was an in family adoption, so I know my
(42:49):
biological mother. And it's just kind of mind blowing the
fact that there are so many similarities between my birth
mother and me, the way that we approach relationships and
the type of relationships that we have prioritized in our lives.
(43:12):
And I hope, I hope, like I don't offend my
birth mother when I say this, because I want to
be respectful, I really really do, But it really is
the truth with it's generational, it's intergenerational. It is like
a family lineage if you really think about it. We
are just now kind of cracking the surface on what
(43:36):
mental health really is and taking this dialogue into our
mainstream media and our everyday conversations, and that's huge. I
can feel like our ancestors being like cheering because there
is so much healing to do and so much hurt
that has been passed down biologically and because of the similarities.
(43:58):
I believe that without a doubt.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Boy, I agree with you completely. I mean, there is
nothing more powerful you can do to break that cycle
than say the buck stops here. Okay, you didn't want
to talk about it with me. I'm not going to
make that mistake. I'm going to talk about it with
my kids, and I'm going to help them understand this
in a way that's not shaming. If your biological mother
is attended by the fact that you mentioned that she
(44:23):
had a problem with addiction, then it's unfortunate that she's hurt.
But there are some things that are more important.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Absolutely, and I don't think that she will be hurt.
She has texted me after listening to the podcast episode
and she just was giving me so much love and
I was giving her that love back. I was like,
it was the most selfless thing you could have ever
done as a human to allow your sister to use
your body as a vessel for me to be born
(44:52):
for her, and the way that it was conceived. I'm
getting more information, like I'm truly healing my birth story
right now, and it is so like wow, it is
so beautiful, and I just wanted to share this because
it's on the top of my mind and I'm really
putting the pieces together. In my birth, I was a
(45:17):
premature baby and the umbilical cord was wrapped around my
neck in the delivery. That's why they had to perform
that emergency C section. And it's no wonder why I
have this blockage in my throat. I have always felt this,
like I can't speak. I have a hard time breathing.
(45:40):
There's something I want to say, but I can't say it.
And it's this whole like healing your throat chakram. I'm
getting into a lot of the you know, your throat chakra,
the yoga, all of that stuff is helping me in
my recovery. So there is something to do with the
throat chakra and healing that and opening that up and
(46:02):
the way that I am able to speak and articulate
my thoughts, feelings and emotions. Now it's like night and day.
It really is. And I know the people listening in
see it too, because I started this show when I
was twenty one and I was very insecure and I
was seeking external validation, and of course it led me
(46:23):
down the path of where it led me to, and
I had to reach this rock bottom in a weird
sort of way to really look at my stuff. Now,
Was it okay? The way that the network handled it
and the way that the public handled it. No, there
was too much public shaming. There was too much sensationalism.
It really shaming somebody for sharing that they have a
(46:49):
problem in their addiction and recognizing their problem and especially
going to go get treatment is not okay. There is
no productivity with shaming somebody like that. It's actually the
inverse effect, because the whole point of addiction, the reason
that we got here, is because of the shame. So
(47:10):
when you're adding more as salt to the wound, it
just makes it that much harder to heal. So I
urge urge urge you guys, please please, please, Like, let's
be respectful, let's be compassionate, like there is there is
a soul cry here that needs to be heard. And
(47:30):
like judging people and making fun of people and thinking
the worst of the situation is not going to help.
It's not going to help. Like, let's let's believe in this.
I choose to believe that Jack is going to figure
out his stuff. I did. I see that for him,
and I'm rooting for him. Eventually he's going to know.
Eventually he'll get it, and you know, I'm looking forward
(47:51):
to the day that that does become full circle. But
until then, all I can do is just express myself
authentically and like continue to talk about it, and can
you to have this dialogue because it really is that
important to me, and I.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
So refreshing to hear you talk about it like this.
You know, it's like you took an opportunity and hopefully
he takes that same opportunity. We all have it, you know,
we take it when we're ready. That's it. And quite
often you see people go in and out and rehab
a dozen times, two dozen times and it's not sticking.
And other times you see people go through it and
they get it. And it's so it's fascinating to me
(48:28):
by the way that you were born with the umbilical
corner around your neck and then you grow up to
be a podcast host.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
I know, I know, I know. It's irony. It's the poetry,
it is the symbolism, it is all of that. It
really is. It's also a lot of ying and yang
symbolism for me right now, the contrast the complete opposite
of the spectrum in a lot of ways for me
to fully understand what it is like to be a
(48:59):
human being being on this earth truly, and I feel
like there is a power in that, there's a power
in that knowledge. I am very blessed to be able
to have gotten the treatment that I needed for the
duration that I absolutely needed. It was an investment in
my future. The amount of times that people came up
(49:20):
to me saying, you are so lucky that you are
figuring this out at the age that you are, because
I wish I had this stuff when I was younger.
My life would be completely different. And so it's like, Wow,
as much as this has been a pain, excruciating pain,
(49:42):
it has also been a blessing. And I had to
turn down, like I went completely my bank account, like
I had to invest in a publicist for the first time.
I don't know what I'm doing. I'm going to the
meadows and all this meat is all around me, and
I'm like, I need somebody to help me. I need help.
(50:04):
A lot of my money went to that. The recovery itself,
big big chunk of money of that right, and then
also the continued recovery, the continued treatment, the continued weekly
therapy appointments, the investment in my yoga practice, the investment
in my pilates, investment in the arts and crafts, the
investment and the things that bring me joy and understanding
(50:26):
that I have to spend money in order to feel abundant.
And abundance isn't just money. It is friendship, It is
your connection to your higher power. Is sharing knowledge and
sharing joy and sharing compassion and sharing truth and healing
(50:48):
the world. That is true abundance. And I know also
it's this whole learning process of being misunderstood by other
people and letting other people misunderstand and you it's not
your job to correct them or defend yourself. Although there
was a lot of lies out there that I really
did feel like I needed to set the story straight
(51:09):
because no, no, you know, like I will defend myself
if you are spreading a lie about me. But other
than that, you can say whatever the heck you want
about me. It really doesn't affect me because you personally
are not in my life. And that being said, I
care so much about the people that tune into this
podcast to get the information that they need, and I
(51:32):
know that I am helping others in this way, and
that heals something within me.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
You know, I have a kind of a mantra for
myself that I have to remember whenever I start to
get discouraged about what people have to say to me
about me. I think to myself, it's they don't hate
me because I'm a screwed up person. They hate me
because they're screwed up people. The hating comes from place
(52:00):
that's not a healthy, honest place.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
Do you understand that, Yes? And also it's it's also
learning like really only take the advice of the people
that you want to be more like the people that
you look up to ask their opinion. Ask they're probably
not going to tell you unless you ask right. And
(52:25):
the people that are throwing their opinion at you, there's
probably not the people that you really want to take
on their opinion because ultimately, once you realize this and
do the work, it's a projection of themselves. And then
you give them grace because you realize that they have
some healing to do, and you send a prayer and
(52:45):
you hope that they one day realize that their trigger,
what's triggering within them from your action. You hope that
they realize that that is something within themselves that they
need to look at. And that's the beauty of it.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
Yeah. Yeah, this has been this is my first podcast.
This has been my absolute delight. It's been so good
talking to you today.
Speaker 1 (53:13):
Gosh, it has been so good talking to you. Joe
Jarillo LMFT. Thank you so much. Is there Do you
have Instagram? Are you on social media? Can people find you?
Speaker 2 (53:25):
I do have a lot going on on social media.
I have a website, Joe Jurilo LMFT, which is out
there that people can can look me up on and
find out information about my background and stuff like that.
I one of my goals this year is to actually
get back to an active social media presence, which I
had for quite a while and then sort of let
(53:46):
it laps. And now we're getting back.
Speaker 1 (53:48):
Well, you post this and you're going to get some
traction here without a doubt.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
I have a private practice in Tehanga that I actually
have out of my house. It's a home office, and
I'm no longer working in hospitals anymore, just practice something
that I specialized in this area, and a couple of
other things as well.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
Awesome, Well, thank you so much for joining me. It
really has been a pleasure as well. Show Tarrillo, all right,
thank you, Thank you so much for listening to Rachel
goes Grogue. Follow us on Instagram and TikTok for exclusive
video content. At Rachel Gohs Rogue Podcast
This is Rachel Goes Rogue. Welcome to a special episode
of Rachel Goes Rogue. I'm your host, Rachel Savannah Levis,
and today we are doing something a little bit different.
We're covering a recent headline. As you may have seen,
(00:26):
Jax Taylor announced he is entering a mental health facility.
I don't expect everyone to understand me, but I do
want to make it clear that it is important for
me to stand up for what I believe is right.
And I know that standing up for people that have
gone through the darkest, darkest stuff that JAXX is going
(00:52):
through right now, that's what's right, That's what feels right.
I'm someone who has first hand experience with seeking treatment.
I wish nothing but the best for Jack's I have
spoken about how much it has helped me, so I
really hope that Jax receives the same benefits that I
(01:13):
did through my recovery. Today we're talking to Joe Jirillo,
who is a distinguished therapist with specialties and behavioral issues
and personality disorders. Joe has lots of expertise on recovery
and addiction specialization, and I felt like it was only
(01:35):
suiting to have him on today, I to talk about
the most recent headline with Jax Taylor, who announced that
he has admitted himself to a mental health facility. Now
we're not sure what type of mental health facility, if
it's impatient, outpatient, what that may be. But this is
obviously an important topic for me to speak about because
(01:58):
I had a similar experience in making the decision to
check myself in. I want to add more context to
the situation, and I want to share oh my thoughts
and feelings and all of that with someone who's an expert.
So so, thank you so much, Joe Derillo. Glad you're here.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Thank you nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Okay, So when you hear that someone is entering treatment,
it sounds it sounds scary. What are some misconceptions about
entering a treatment facility?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
That's that's a really good question. Usually people don't attempt
to join a treatment facility or go into treatment unless
they already are at a point where they recognize that
they're having problems they can't deal with by themselves. When
it comes to most of my experience has been working
in chemical dependency, as far as the hospitalization part. Other
(02:52):
addictions that are that are related but not chemically related
gambling addictions, sex and love addiction, et cetera, et cetera.
That they all are basically kind of like looked at
in the same way because the same parts of the
brain line up when they're stimulated as do when people
are chemically independent. Part of the problem with addiction in
general is the difficulty being able to recognize what's going
(03:15):
on with you for yourself. So it's a rare occasion
in my experience when somebody says, oh boy, I need
help and science himself into treatment, Generally somebody else's behind
and kind of nudging him and going, honey, I love you,
but man, man, I think that this is bigger than
just you, so maybe we should get something help.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Just to empathize with where Jacks is at and the
decision that he made. I'm sure there was this internal
battle that he was facing, and I'm sure there was
probably somebody that really does care about him seeing him
spiral in some sort of way, and I'm sure this
has been something that he has been grappling for quite
some time.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yeah, and you know, I don't know details either about
your hospitalization or Jack's hospitalization at all, but I've watched
thousands of people go through treatment. In the course of
my career, I worked seventeen years, almost eighteen years in
psychiatric hospitals literally doing that, working with people throughout the day,
(04:14):
doing groups and stuff like that. Most in that time
in addiction treatment.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, can you explain to people what the different types
of treatment looks like?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Sure that they're okay. Let's take chemical dependency as a
model for instance. There are different attitudes, different different approaches
towards dealing with addiction, different philosophies and reality there's one
philosophy which is the one that I probably subscribed to
more than any, which is once that addiction is a
(04:47):
developmental problem that once it comes to a specific point,
it's not much good to try to rationalize your way
through it, to be able to like think your way
into recovery. Recovery being that you're a life that's not
disabled by what it is your addictive practices. And so
the most important thing, probably in any treatment for any
(05:08):
kind of addiction is a period of time where you're
removed from your current environment, so you have actually had
the ability to almost like the detox that we talk
about in addiction is more a matter well for chemical dependency.
It's a matter of not taking any medication or any
kind of drug or alcohol at all for a period
(05:30):
of time long enough so that your mind actually starts
to see things clearly, your grain actually starts to heal
as well as the rest of you, and that takes
weeks and months. I remember years ago when I was
working over at loss in Senis, I asked the question
of the doctors how long does a person have to
be sober so to speak of their addiction before their
(05:51):
mind is working the way it did before the addiction
took power over them. And the answer was generally about
two years. And it's a developmental healing that takes about
that long before you're at the point and you're never
quite the same anymore, but you come to a recognition
this is something you used to work for me. I
can't do this anymore because now it works against me,
(06:13):
and I need to be able to maintain that position
if I'm going to survive it, because everything inside of
me is going to be telling me I should just
go back to doing what I was doing before, because
that felt right. No matter what the thing is that
you are struggling with, its addiction to that piece is
really essential in chemical dependency. A lot of times they
(06:34):
focus on twelve step programs as being the continuation or
maintenance it helps people be able to stay sober. Nobody,
for instance, nobody really gets sober in AA per se.
They usually get sobered by some sort of effort like
a rehab or something like that, detox and rehab. But
the maintenance of how you continue forward to be able
(06:54):
to live differently requires it you establish some rules for
yourself that you didn't follow by before, and A gives
a framework for that. It's really quite unique any of
the twelve step programs do saying basically that you need
to recognize that you have a problem. The problem is
not going to go away, and you need to continue
to be mindfulness throughout the course of your life or
(07:15):
it will flare up again. In other words, you're putting
your problem inter a mission. Some programs for recovery will
basically I don't want to criticize them, but they'll spend
a lot of time campering you and doing kind of
a pseudo therapy, which they think is supposed to be
the healing part of what it is that goes on.
(07:35):
But it's a dual connection. When I was working at
loss and Cinas. For instance, they didn't want us to
do any deep therapy with people while they were detoxing
off of chemicals. They wanted to do the kind of
stuff that's going to be the right you're right and
now stuff to be able to get you in a
position to stay sober and then down the line a
couple of months then will get you going in like
(07:55):
a deeper therapy that's going to be looking at the
parts of your life that may be up to this
type of thing and how you are going to change
so that you don't want back.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Any one hundred percent. Yeah. I remember when I was
checking myself into the Meadows, which is the recovery center
that I spent three months at, and they took me
off of all my medication even though I was diagnosed
with adhd ADD And I remember, obviously everyone is coming
(08:25):
in they're at their own personal rock bottom. So people
are exhausted and they are just like trying to function.
They're trying to understand life and how they got to
this point. Also accepting the fact that your way isn't
working for you anymore and you need to figure out
what a better way to live your life. Is, and
(08:47):
so like being ready to surrender to that and and
take in that knowledge is also a process once you're entering. Also,
I remember the Meadows had like heavy group therapy, so
that first full week I was dedicated to attending everything,
but I was falling asleep in the group session and
(09:09):
nodding off, and I was like apologizing, I'm so sorry
that I keep nodding off. I don't mean to be rude,
and everyone was very accepting. They're like, no, we get it,
it's fine. And then once I was able to get
back on my medication that helps me keep focused. And
I had to take the Tova test to verify that
I actually was diagnosed with ADHD and I wasn't like
abusing a substance. They were able to put me back
(09:32):
on my medication, and then I was much more present
and able to kind of take in the information. And
it's a whole learning process too. The way that each
facility is structured, they probably teach you how to talk
about your experience in a way that's respectful to yourself
and respectful to others. And it's learning a new structure
(09:53):
of how people communicate in this setting, so that you're
able to communicate effective and it's able to be received
by others. It's a big learning process. You know.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I'm so glad that you've said that, because you know,
it's always occurred to me that there's something about addiction
that is kind of a delusional disorder where it's really
hard for you to see yourself. I always I used
to tell people in group all the time, the flaw
in human beings is that we've got two eyes in
the front of our head pointing away from us, and
that just by nature, it's hard for us to see
ourselves clearly. With addiction, that's twice asar So the focus,
(10:30):
the focus has to be on group therapy because in
group therapy, what happens is you're hearing your story coming
out of other people who are sharing, and then you
can hear it, but you can't sure, you can't even
bring it up for yourself and tired.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Oh yeah, that is such a point to drive home.
And it also gives you perspective of how we project
onto others our own stuff and recognizing that others are
able to hold up this projection screen in a way
for us to see ourselves within ourselves. It's information that
(11:06):
we receive back from their story, hearing their story and recognizing, oh,
these are the similarities. This is what I also experienced,
processing that and then being able to express that and
connect in a way. It's very relational, yep.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Absolutely, and there's power in that that you can't get
from anywhere else. It's just it's a kind of a
magic when you see it happening that it's really hard
to explain to people unless in there.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yeah, okay, like let's get into Jack's just a little bit.
Because understanding this headline is also understanding the nature of
the beast. With vander Pump Rules, when you sign a
contract to agree to share your life for the rest
of the world to see, basically and to experience with
(11:59):
you because tltimately, I think the reason why we connect
with reality TV so much is through seeing our experience
in other people and then therefore learning more about ourselves.
So when you sign a contract to display your life
on vander Pump Rules, I can completely understand why Jacks
(12:23):
decided to share with the world that he checked himself
into a recovery center, because that is the reality of
the situation, that is what is happening in his life,
and so I believe I understand why Jack's publicly announced
he was going to treatment. But for those who may
(12:43):
not understand why and who are criticizing him for sharing
it publicly, why do you think he decided to make
a public statement instead of addressing it privately and dealing
with it privately? And I have my own understanding, But
(13:04):
for those from the outside looking in and kind of
judging the situation for him being so public with this statement,
kind of like posting books and all that stuff, why
do you think that he decided to go that route?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Not knowing Jackson? Of course, being a therapist, it's unfair
for me to be able to say what I think
he was thinking because I don't know the first thing
about it.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Correct good point, but I.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Will say this, there is still a stigma out there
about addiction and about recovery and about getting help that
is really super unfortunately, and I would say pauses hundreds
of thousands of deaths in America every year, where people
think that I'm just going to gust through my problem
and no one else needs to know about it, because
(13:47):
if they do, they're going to think less of me,
And in my experience, almost always that's not true at all.
In my experience in the current age, when people go
get help, other people around them actually get courage to
go get help themselves. So it may be, if I'm
guessing you know it, maybe the Jacks felt like it
(14:09):
was actually a service to the public. Maybe for him
to be public about this and say, look, I need
help and I'm going to go get it. Maybe he
was part of the fact that he didn't want to
totally give up a contract that was going to end
if you run into treatment without making it a part
of his story. Or maybe it was just that, you know,
he felt that he didn't have the energy to be
(14:31):
able to keep it a secret. The media can be
pretty heavy duty when it comes to loss and senus.
I'm sorry, don't need to jump around. Loss and Cenus
has been traditionally a place where movie stars and rock
stars and entertainment people would go and spend time and
so forth. As a result, there were certain i'll call
them loosely news companies that would have helicopters over head
(14:54):
taking pictures and drones and things like that, while there
were patients in our care that were a high profiles,
so to speak, and it was really unfortunate because it
sensationalizes at that level what's going on with people in
a way that's really not helpful and actually can be destructive.
I saw a number of people who are in treatment
(15:16):
recognize that they were being found out and wanted to
leave as a result of it, who really needed to
be talked off the ledge to be able to stay
and actually focus on what was important rather than what
the media might say and the public might think. And
so I totally get that. I can say this when
people focus on their own recovery and they get well,
(15:38):
it's almost like the old saying the best revenge is
success that when you were healthy. Other people get nothing
from that. It's something positive in the end, And in
the process they made bad mouth it until they suddenly
recognize the old crap. What was I thinking?
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah, yeah, when I And the reason why I'm drawing
this back to myself is to not make it about me.
I want to make that very clear. It's so that
I can be relational to the situation that we see
happening once again in a different circumstance. It's a little
bit different, but it's it's the overarching theme is the same,
(16:22):
and the context. The deeper stuff is ultimately the same,
even though it's showing up a little bit differently. Ooh yeah,
I was met with a lot of judgment and scrutiny.
I decided not to publicize that I was seeking treatment,
and unfortunately, somebody who was in the recovery center the
(16:45):
first week that I checked in, and it was her
last week, she recognized me and got too excited. I
can empathize and understand where she was coming from with,
you know, being excited to tell a friend of who
the heck she just saw at the meadow that got
out And then you know, that was heart wrenching because
(17:05):
that was out of my control, and I wanted it
to be sacred. I wanted it to be like, I'm
just focusing on myself. I need to mute out all
the noise. But then once that happened, the press took
that and then twisted it and then started saying that, no,
I'm not actually at a mental health facility, I'm at
a spa. So then that was the narrative that was
being put out and the irony of all of that,
(17:28):
and the full circle moment is Jack's was one of
the people saying that he knows for a fact that
I was at a SPA, So I just want to
bring that context into this space to understand, like, this
is something that is so important to talk about, and
the reason why I'm talking about it right now is
(17:50):
not to put judgment on anybody. I don't even judge
Jack's honestly, Like, I think I can empathize with his
moment of judging me for getting treatment and actually, like,
maybe this may be my own projection, and I'm aware
of that, but I can rationalize the fact that he
(18:10):
probably was suppressing something within him, truly wanting to get treatment,
because he was probably grappling with this for quite some time,
suppressing that and then projecting that onto me, saying like, no,
there's no frickin way she's checking herself into a mental
health facility. Who the heck would do that? I share
as hell would it, And at that time, he wouldn't
(18:32):
because he hadn't yet, And so I can completely empathize
with where he was coming from, and I hope that
this experience. I can only hope that this experience becomes
full circle for him so that he can have more
empathy with people who you know, are actually seeking treatment
and actually are wanting to become a healthier version of themselves.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
You know, at the risk it sounded like I understand
what's going on with someone who I had never met.
I would say that that that's going to be clear
indication of the quality of the sobriety if afterwards he
recognizes that. The reason I'm saying that is because addiction
has a tendency to bring us to the very worst
of ourselves. Okay, I mean it develops some of you know, it's.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
It.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
The addiction itself creates character flaws. Whereas people think that
your character flawed and that's why you're an addict, and
that's not that's not true. The character flaws are the
result of trying to survive in your addiction and doing
the only things that possibly can do. And none of
them are very upfront and straight. You know, most of
them are duplessness and deceitful and you know, hiding and
(19:44):
so forth. I totally respect anybody's choice to be able
to get some without it being in the public eye.
You know, not not to talk a lot about AA,
but I mean that program started one hundred years ago,
and they called it Alcoholics Anonymous because basically it's nobody's
business that yours, that you have this problem and you're
trying to get sober. Although the people close to us
(20:05):
almost always know there's something going on with us, they
just can't put a finger on it necessarily. And so
there's that, you know. And like I said, I'm not
gonna you know, honk on the Big Book or anything
like that. But the twelve steps of a are really
interesting in the sense that the first step is the
only one that talks about a chemical right or the
(20:25):
thing that you're addicted to. It says, we recognize we
were powerless over whatever your drug choices or whatever your
addiction is, that our lives had become unmanageable. If you
can't wrap your head around that first part, you're never
going to be able to deal with the stuff that
is what the stuff of addiction is about that you
have to The next eleven steps don't say anything about
(20:46):
it an object of dependency at all. They talk about
how to live different.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Interesting stuff, very interesting. Would it be a fair statement
to say that, like, you have to grapple with the
fact that you have to accept the things you cannot
(21:14):
change and encourage to change the things that you can,
and recognizing that you actually do have a problem. Admitting
it is the first step, and maybe that may be
the hardest step because you won't be able to get
the resources in the support that you need in order
to tackle it until you admit that you have a problem.
And a big part of AA and recovery programs is
(21:36):
the community and the people who you know. Like ultimately,
when you go through the twelve steps, you now know
that you have a message to carry to all of
those who also deal with addiction, and it is your
duty to help those people and it fulfills your soul.
So there are people that want to help others and
(21:57):
they step into this place of leadership and guidance because
we have been for the people who are grappling with addiction.
We have been placing power in a substance or a
person to take us out of our pain and to
numb us from what we are not healed from. Ooh yeah,
(22:20):
And the only way you can really heal is through
others in your community. And that is why it's so so,
so so so important to look at your environment, to
look at your work environment, look at your everyday life.
What is your routine, what are the things that you're
doing for your soul, what are the things that make
you happy? Are you really happy or are you just
(22:40):
trying to get by getting a paycheck? And like selling
your soul for money in order for a means too
meant to have some sort of false freedom when in
reality you're trapped. It's a golden handcuffs type of situation.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Absolutely, absolutely, there's no saying that you use in the program.
The only thing that has to change is everything, which
is doesn't mean that you necessarily have to like, you know,
go live, you know, on a kibootz or something like that,
but what it means is that if you're not willing
to change whatever it is it's required to change to
be able to stay sober, you won't, you know. And
(23:19):
it's interesting to hear you talk about it because I
noticed that there's times when you're talking about it, it's
almost like your breath is taken away because you get
it so deeply from what you experienced of your of
your own addiction. You know that that it's it should
be the kind of thing that takes your breath away
because we're so incapable of recognizing what's going on while
(23:39):
we're in it, except that maybe we don't know what
we're doing. We're scared, we need help, and we don't
even know how to ask for it. Quite often. And
then when you're when you're away from it for a
while and able to remain abstinate, so to speak, which
is just just the beginning part of it, you look
back on it and you have this tremendous sense of
what the hell was I thinking? You know, I don't
(24:01):
think I was thinking anything. It's like my addiction was
thinking for me and making decisions that kept me for
taking care of myself.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, and it's a and this is where the piece
of compassion comes in because it was used as a
survival mechanism. Yes, because like your body, your brain is
so smart, and you are going to find ways to
survive in a high stress, chaotic environment where your soul
(24:29):
is not fulfilled. You will find the thing outside of
yourself that will bring you some sort of relief and
escape from it all. And I do feel like and
I'm not a man, so I can't speak to this
because I haven't experienced it. And I'm happy that you
are a man, so I can ask you personally. I
(24:50):
feel like there's a piece with the toxic masculinity and
suppressing your emotions, not feeling all your emotions, and the
message that society gives me men that if you cry,
you are weak. If you are vulnerable, you are weak.
And in reality, the vulnerability and the ability to recognize
(25:11):
and allow yourself to feel all of your emotion is
the strongest thing we can do as human beings. Right.
Can you speak to that as a man? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (25:25):
I speak that as a human, but as a man
in particularly because I recognize that I'm a man as well,
and I'm really happy about that. I like being a man.
But there's a lot of baggage that goes along with it,
part of which it is to even ask for help
or say I think I might have been wrong sounds
like weakness. And the last thing in the world that
Amanda is allowed to show in this world is weakness,
(25:45):
because it means they're a failure, you know. And so
to be able to actually understand that there's a reason
that I ended up in the position I'm in and
there's no way I'm going to survive this unless I
get help, is that's a big step. That is a huge,
huge stuff. I don't know if it's really that easier
(26:07):
for women to be honest with you, there's a stigma
for men, but at this point in our development, I
think the women probably encourage encounter of the same thing.
For minute, it's like, I can't take time off for
my work. If I take time off for my work,
I can't tell you the number of people I watched
leaf treatment in the middle of it because their business
was going to fail if they didn't, and the women
(26:29):
that would would do the exact same thing for the
very same reason my career. I need to be in
Chicago tomorrow and I have to leave it and then
I'll come back. Okay, I really promise it doesn't happen,
you know. Or even my kids need me at home,
you know, or my mother needs me to take care
of her. It's like it's always the.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Same, exactly. Yes, yes, yes, it's the feeling the need
to prioritize your family. And I'm sure there is some
sort of validation that you get from being needed by
others in some sort of way and feeling like this
is a selfless thing for me to do, to not
take time away from my family to focus on myself,
(27:09):
like I need to The thought process right of somebody
deciding not to enter treatment because they want to prioritize
their family. In air quotes, would be like, it's a
selfless thing to sacrifice my mental well being for my
family because they need me in air quotes, But in reality,
(27:30):
your family needs the healed version of yourself, And so
when you are deciding to go to treatment, like that
is the ultimate form of self care. And for the
people saying that that is selfish, I was told that
me seeking treatment was selfish and I had to grapple
(27:54):
with that and really look at myself and see, like,
am I being a selfish person right now? The messaging
that I was getting from the public, it was a
really really really big mind twist, and I thank goodness
I had therapists like on call and therapy every single
day to process through it, because it was really heavy,
(28:17):
and it really prevented me from like going full in
in my recovery because I was grappling with all the
outside noise and trying to figure out, like, how do
I trust myself again?
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah that I ran four different groups every single day
when I was working in the recovery center over at
Los Ancinos, so called the Briar Unit, and it was
really quite a magical place when some miracles happen. And
I don't say that lightly because I'm not like a
magical thinking guy. But the four groups basically would start
with a step group where people were actually doing some
writing and journaling on each one of the steps one
(28:53):
at a time, and doing a presentation in front of
everybody about how they related to the questions regarding that step.
The second group was one called it was a meditation group.
The second group of the day would be mindfulness, where
we actually learned ways to be able to tork ourselves
down and so forth and be able to take a
more mindful approach to life. The third group of the
(29:15):
day was relapse prevention, which was let's talk about all
the ways you're going to go back to doing what
you were doing before, because if we don't talk about
them straight up front and admit to it, we're going
to be vulnerable to it. So at the very least,
let's talk about it, so when you're ready to do that,
you remember this conversation and maybe the help.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
And then recovery education, which is let's talk about the
biology of this, the psychology of this, the spirituality of this,
and how all of those have been affected so four
separate groups. In the relapsed prevention group, the big question
always was what is the number one reason that you're
convinced you need to leave treatment? Right? And there is
(29:53):
nobody in that room ever that said, well, I'm completely
convinced I need to stay here. There was always that
element to doubt or life. I need to get back
to all these things that you know, if you were
to complete the sentence, really what it would be would
be I need to get back to my stone stealth
that the rest of the world has gotten used to
that I'm convinced they need of me. And that's what
(30:18):
people are really struggling with when they're in treatment, Like
I don't know if I'm going to be useful if
I'm sober. I don't know if I'm ever going to
have fun again if I'm sober. I don't know how
people are going to see me or how really how
am I going to see myself if I.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Get so m Yeah, I mean, just you saying that
has made me realize something really monumental about my particular experience.
Because I was getting so much public shame that I
literally did not want to leave. I was like, oh,
(30:54):
I know I have nowhere else to be. I don't
want to be out there. I don't want my phone,
I don't want to look at that stuff. I don't
want to do that. The only thing that was the
outside source was the person that I was involved with,
the codependent relationship that I was involved in. I was
still speaking to that person in the meadows, very limited,
(31:18):
and as time went on, it got shorter and shorter
until it was completely cut off. But I had no
desire to leave, and I knew that, Like that's part
of the reason why I extended longer, because I knew
I needed more help. I was still calling him, and
I knew I needed help. I knew there was something
(31:40):
more for me. They did some parts work with the
group that you have to go through all the basic
forty five day teachings and learnings and therapy before you
can graduate into a more advanced group that goes even
deeper and gets more to the root cause, and that
the parts inside of you that are at conflict with
(32:01):
one another and identifying those and validating those and understanding
where the motives are coming from, so you have complete
awareness and could be a functional adult. And so I
knew I needed that too. I was like, that's a
big part for me because I had these conflicting thoughts
in my mind constantly my whole life. So it really
(32:24):
was exactly what I truly needed to evolve into the
healed person that I have become today. And now I
get to share this message to those who need to
hear it the most. And there is a reason why
this is being brought up in this way. Again, there
(32:46):
is a reason why we seek our information through the
form of media, and this is exactly the demographic that
we're talking about. The viewers that tune into vander Pump
Rules want to, like I said, relate to others on
the television screen. So even if this is a storyline,
even if they do implement this in the valley, I
(33:09):
think I don't think that's a bad thing. I think
ultimately that is for the greater good. This is the
reason why there's reality TV, and the reason why people
are interested in topics like this and discussing it is
because there is a discussion to be had. There is
something here that is so important, and it is so
(33:31):
important to have these kinds of discussions and share it
with the larger audience because it is going to reach
people that are going to see this and take something
that they hear today and reflect on their lives so
that they can start healing themselves, and in turn, it's
a trickle down effect. It's it's healing the world, right.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
It's it's interesting when you're talking about this because while
I was working at Loss and Cenas, MTV put together
a program called Celebrity Rehab. It was very it was
it wasn't the first recovery related show reality TV show,
but it it pretty much took the drama and accentuated
(34:15):
the drama part of it in a rather unfortunate way,
because all people saw was like the crazy acting out
behavior and stuff like this, and people getting in trouble
and people acting badly and stuff like that, which that
in and of itself really didn't help people understand addiction
or the treatment. So media has a real deep responsibility
(34:36):
of being able to present this stuff in a way
that's wise, which unfortunately, I don't think that the media
or politics is necessarily all that good and being read
by wisdom. So it really requires it. Whoever is producing
shows like I really really takes it, treats it with
respect and delicacy. The other thing is I don't mean
to be like an agenda person here, but one of
(35:00):
the things that's really difficult about rehab these days is
that most people can't afford rehab unless they've got some
sort of insurance, and when they've got insurance at all,
it's never enough for what's required to be able to
stay well. Most places will pay for most insurance companies
will pay for detox where you're out of the life
(35:21):
threatening situation, and then they'll pay maybe a little bit
day by day to rehab itself after the detox, residential
treatments sometimes a little bit. Unfortunately, they require you to
fail lower levels of treatment so that you need higher
levels of treatment, and they won't pay for it unless
you fail the lower level of treatment, which really takes
(35:42):
people to a very dangerous place, especially if they know
that if I relapse, they'll pay for longer next time.
The old programs like fifty years ago, back then me
even maybe thirty years ago, we're one year and two
year program where people went away. It was like a
(36:03):
monastic approach to dealing with stuff, and I'm not sure
that people necessarily stayed sober and longer. I'm not really
sure if the length of sobriety is the goal necessarily,
I don't. I don't think so. But programs today people
are they're they're lucky if they can stay in treatment
for like a week, two weeks, three weeks, anything passed
(36:24):
their detox alone. And if they can, they're some of
a lucky few. If you've got private funding or an
organization that can help, that's fantastic. But insurance doesn't make
it any easier for people to get sober. And that's
something that really needs to be looked at in a
serious way because hospitals and rehabs they need to be
able to survive, they need to be able to make
(36:46):
a living. And whether or not they're they're overcharging, I
mean they get they get a reputation from being spatlike
for that very reason. The cost is tremendous and a
lot of times only people who are wealthy can afford it.
Are very connected that that is real shame.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yes, yes, yes to all of that. And it's also
why it's so important for me to share what I've
learned there, because I know that other people need this
information and it's it's resonating with people because it's not
just it's addiction as a whole, but also, like relationship wise,
(37:27):
everyone deals with relationship issues, everyone has struggles relationally, and
that's why it's so applicable to humanity as a whole.
And I just wanted to touch back really quick to
you know, the main assumption right now of people assuming
that Jack's admitted himself to a mental health facility for
(37:51):
the show or for a storyline. Since cameras are up
from filming right now, that may be an assumption. And
my response to that is the timing of it all
is completely irrelevant. It really doesn't matter when, Like regardless
if Jack's was checking in now while the show is filming,
(38:14):
or if he was checking himself when the show was airing,
or if the show was completely not airing at all,
it really doesn't matter. When he was going to check
himself in it, it was going to be faced with
the same public scrutiny and questioning.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, yeah, I would, I would think so, yeah, I
would think so yea.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
So let's go back to we were talking about how
men and women deal a little bit, like the standards
of society that places a expectations on men versus women.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Yeah, I think I got.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
When there's children involved in a family. What's the best
way to approach talking about this topic to the children involved.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Wow, that's a really great question there. You know, there's
a lot of different thoughts about this. The first thing,
most parents don't want their kids to understand or know
what it is that they're struggling with. But I got
to tell you something. In my experience, kids know there's
something going on, and when you don't explain to them
in reality what the thing is and the way the
kids can to understand, it's worse because then they're if
(39:40):
addiction stands by anything, it's denial in silence. Okay, those
things keep addiction going. When you pull one of those
two things out, the whole thing collapses, all right. So
if you are upfront about it and go, honey, I
need to go away for a little while to a hospital.
I'm going to be, you know, a couple of miles away.
And the reason is because my body has developed an
(40:01):
inappropriate relationship to a chemical that I've been using. And
I feel really bad about this. But the only avenue
get well is if we're apart for a little while
while I'm taking care of this and to help them
understand the other aspect, which No one wants to talk
about the genetic predisposition to pass addiction down, even behavioral addictions,
not just chemical addictions, from one generation to the next
(40:25):
is enormous. They say that. They say that the stats
showed that about one out of every ten people in
America at least develop a chemical dependency problem of some
sort during the course of their life. That's enormous number
of people.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Right.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
If you have a parent or a grandparent that had
a problem with chemical dependency in your bloodline, you're five
times more likely to develop the problem yourself. If both
sides of your family contained problems with addiction, you're ten
times more likely than the average person developer a problem.
(41:01):
That means that for you to think that your kids
aren't going to be affected by this if you don't
tell them, is a huge mistake. Now, case in point,
I'm an addict in recovery myself. I got sober when
my wife went to treatment for alcoholics. That was twenty
years ago. We just celebrated a twenty years sober anniversary
and thank you very much. My grandfather that was a
(41:26):
serious alcoholic that no one wanted to talk about it.
We had the blessing and curse that just before we
kids were born, the grandkids were born, Grandpa stopped drinking completely,
and no one ever told us that Grandpa had struggled
with this problem. Had I known that I had addiction
in my family in my genes when I was a
(41:46):
teenager and I discovered alcohol, and I found that I
wanted to do this all day, every day because it
was the only thing that felt right. That may have
helped me tremendously. I don't know, you know, there's no
way for me to get now looking back on it,
but I can't imagine that we do our kids anything
but a tremendous service. You know, if your kid, if
(42:07):
you have sickle cellia in your family, you have diabetes
in your family, if you have a cancer history in
your family, you would tell your kids, you know, we
need to watch out for this because it's a family's thing,
you know. And so to not share that with your
kids in a way that they're going to be able
to find useful is a real mistake. That's my personal
orientation to it.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Yeah, And my personal orientation to it is there's some
serious truth to that. Because I just released a podcast
episode about my adoption story and my adoption process, and
I was adopted at birth, raised by my adopted parents.
It was an in family adoption, so I know my
(42:49):
biological mother. And it's just kind of mind blowing the
fact that there are so many similarities between my birth
mother and me, the way that we approach relationships and
the type of relationships that we have prioritized in our lives.
(43:12):
And I hope, I hope, like I don't offend my
birth mother when I say this, because I want to
be respectful, I really really do, But it really is
the truth with it's generational, it's intergenerational. It is like
a family lineage if you really think about it. We
are just now kind of cracking the surface on what
(43:36):
mental health really is and taking this dialogue into our
mainstream media and our everyday conversations, and that's huge. I
can feel like our ancestors being like cheering because there
is so much healing to do and so much hurt
that has been passed down biologically and because of the similarities.
(43:58):
I believe that without a doubt.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Boy, I agree with you completely. I mean, there is
nothing more powerful you can do to break that cycle
than say the buck stops here. Okay, you didn't want
to talk about it with me. I'm not going to
make that mistake. I'm going to talk about it with
my kids, and I'm going to help them understand this
in a way that's not shaming. If your biological mother
is attended by the fact that you mentioned that she
(44:23):
had a problem with addiction, then it's unfortunate that she's hurt.
But there are some things that are more important.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Absolutely, and I don't think that she will be hurt.
She has texted me after listening to the podcast episode
and she just was giving me so much love and
I was giving her that love back. I was like,
it was the most selfless thing you could have ever
done as a human to allow your sister to use
your body as a vessel for me to be born
(44:52):
for her, and the way that it was conceived. I'm
getting more information, like I'm truly healing my birth story
right now, and it is so like wow, it is
so beautiful, and I just wanted to share this because
it's on the top of my mind and I'm really
putting the pieces together. In my birth, I was a
(45:17):
premature baby and the umbilical cord was wrapped around my
neck in the delivery. That's why they had to perform
that emergency C section. And it's no wonder why I
have this blockage in my throat. I have always felt this,
like I can't speak. I have a hard time breathing.
(45:40):
There's something I want to say, but I can't say it.
And it's this whole like healing your throat chakram. I'm
getting into a lot of the you know, your throat chakra,
the yoga, all of that stuff is helping me in
my recovery. So there is something to do with the
throat chakra and healing that and opening that up and
(46:02):
the way that I am able to speak and articulate
my thoughts, feelings and emotions. Now it's like night and day.
It really is. And I know the people listening in
see it too, because I started this show when I
was twenty one and I was very insecure and I
was seeking external validation, and of course it led me
(46:23):
down the path of where it led me to, and
I had to reach this rock bottom in a weird
sort of way to really look at my stuff. Now,
Was it okay? The way that the network handled it
and the way that the public handled it. No, there
was too much public shaming. There was too much sensationalism.
It really shaming somebody for sharing that they have a
(46:49):
problem in their addiction and recognizing their problem and especially
going to go get treatment is not okay. There is
no productivity with shaming somebody like that. It's actually the
inverse effect, because the whole point of addiction, the reason
that we got here, is because of the shame. So
(47:10):
when you're adding more as salt to the wound, it
just makes it that much harder to heal. So I
urge urge urge you guys, please please, please, Like, let's
be respectful, let's be compassionate, like there is there is
a soul cry here that needs to be heard. And
(47:30):
like judging people and making fun of people and thinking
the worst of the situation is not going to help.
It's not going to help. Like, let's let's believe in this.
I choose to believe that Jack is going to figure
out his stuff. I did. I see that for him,
and I'm rooting for him. Eventually he's going to know.
Eventually he'll get it, and you know, I'm looking forward
(47:51):
to the day that that does become full circle. But
until then, all I can do is just express myself
authentically and like continue to talk about it, and can
you to have this dialogue because it really is that
important to me, and I.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
So refreshing to hear you talk about it like this.
You know, it's like you took an opportunity and hopefully
he takes that same opportunity. We all have it, you know,
we take it when we're ready. That's it. And quite
often you see people go in and out and rehab
a dozen times, two dozen times and it's not sticking.
And other times you see people go through it and
they get it. And it's so it's fascinating to me
(48:28):
by the way that you were born with the umbilical
corner around your neck and then you grow up to
be a podcast host.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
I know, I know, I know. It's irony. It's the poetry,
it is the symbolism, it is all of that. It
really is. It's also a lot of ying and yang
symbolism for me right now, the contrast the complete opposite
of the spectrum in a lot of ways for me
to fully understand what it is like to be a
(48:59):
human being being on this earth truly, and I feel
like there is a power in that, there's a power
in that knowledge. I am very blessed to be able
to have gotten the treatment that I needed for the
duration that I absolutely needed. It was an investment in
my future. The amount of times that people came up
(49:20):
to me saying, you are so lucky that you are
figuring this out at the age that you are, because
I wish I had this stuff when I was younger.
My life would be completely different. And so it's like, Wow,
as much as this has been a pain, excruciating pain,
(49:42):
it has also been a blessing. And I had to
turn down, like I went completely my bank account, like
I had to invest in a publicist for the first time.
I don't know what I'm doing. I'm going to the
meadows and all this meat is all around me, and
I'm like, I need somebody to help me. I need help.
(50:04):
A lot of my money went to that. The recovery itself,
big big chunk of money of that right, and then
also the continued recovery, the continued treatment, the continued weekly
therapy appointments, the investment in my yoga practice, the investment
in my pilates, investment in the arts and crafts, the
investment and the things that bring me joy and understanding
(50:26):
that I have to spend money in order to feel abundant.
And abundance isn't just money. It is friendship, It is
your connection to your higher power. Is sharing knowledge and
sharing joy and sharing compassion and sharing truth and healing
(50:48):
the world. That is true abundance. And I know also
it's this whole learning process of being misunderstood by other
people and letting other people misunderstand and you it's not
your job to correct them or defend yourself. Although there
was a lot of lies out there that I really
did feel like I needed to set the story straight
(51:09):
because no, no, you know, like I will defend myself
if you are spreading a lie about me. But other
than that, you can say whatever the heck you want
about me. It really doesn't affect me because you personally
are not in my life. And that being said, I
care so much about the people that tune into this
podcast to get the information that they need, and I
(51:32):
know that I am helping others in this way, and
that heals something within me.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
You know, I have a kind of a mantra for
myself that I have to remember whenever I start to
get discouraged about what people have to say to me
about me. I think to myself, it's they don't hate
me because I'm a screwed up person. They hate me
because they're screwed up people. The hating comes from place
(52:00):
that's not a healthy, honest place.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
Do you understand that, Yes? And also it's it's also
learning like really only take the advice of the people
that you want to be more like the people that
you look up to ask their opinion. Ask they're probably
not going to tell you unless you ask right. And
(52:25):
the people that are throwing their opinion at you, there's
probably not the people that you really want to take
on their opinion because ultimately, once you realize this and
do the work, it's a projection of themselves. And then
you give them grace because you realize that they have
some healing to do, and you send a prayer and
(52:45):
you hope that they one day realize that their trigger,
what's triggering within them from your action. You hope that
they realize that that is something within themselves that they
need to look at. And that's the beauty of it.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
Yeah. Yeah, this has been this is my first podcast.
This has been my absolute delight. It's been so good
talking to you today.
Speaker 1 (53:13):
Gosh, it has been so good talking to you. Joe
Jarillo LMFT. Thank you so much. Is there Do you
have Instagram? Are you on social media? Can people find you?
Speaker 2 (53:25):
I do have a lot going on on social media.
I have a website, Joe Jurilo LMFT, which is out
there that people can can look me up on and
find out information about my background and stuff like that.
I one of my goals this year is to actually
get back to an active social media presence, which I
had for quite a while and then sort of let
(53:46):
it laps. And now we're getting back.
Speaker 1 (53:48):
Well, you post this and you're going to get some
traction here without a doubt.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
I have a private practice in Tehanga that I actually
have out of my house. It's a home office, and
I'm no longer working in hospitals anymore, just practice something
that I specialized in this area, and a couple of
other things as well.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
Awesome, Well, thank you so much for joining me. It
really has been a pleasure as well. Show Tarrillo, all right,
thank you, Thank you so much for listening to Rachel
goes Grogue. Follow us on Instagram and TikTok for exclusive
video content. At Rachel Gohs Rogue Podcast
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