August 13, 2024 • 53 mins
When will I know if I should start dating again? How do I create a boundary that is love? And how on Earth is math involved in all of this?
If you’re wondering any of these questions, we’ve got you covered. In the latest episode, Rachel dives in with Dr. Abby Medcalf who provides a humorous and insightful conversation and reveals her secret tips to build long standing, healthy friendships and relationships.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Rachel Go's Rogue.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome back to another episode of Rachel Goes Rogue with
your host, Rachel Savannah Lettis. Today is an episode I'm
really excited to talk about. I have had dating coaches
join me in the past, but today I'm excited to
talk to a guest about kind of the next step
in that process building healthy friendships and relationships. I'm happy
(00:32):
to bring on doctor Abby Medcalf, who is armed with humor,
a ton of research in over thirty years of hands
on experience. She teaches simple tools and strategies to make
all relationships the best they've ever been.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Yeah, so welcome, thank you, thank you for having me.
I'm excited to have a great conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Can you define what a successful relationship means to you?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yes. I always say that success in anything actually is
joy and growth. If you've got joy, if you've got
growth in a very consistent way, you've got a successful relate.
And everything is relationships, so work and home and friends
and lovers, and it's all the same. So that is
my very simple definition. And you can always check in
(01:16):
with yourself and think, like in this relationship at work,
or it with this person, or with my mom or
whoever my best friend. Do I feel like we have
a lot of joy? And do I feel like we're
always growing together? Like, is this something where my own
growth is supported, where I feel like I can support theirs?
If you can answer yes to those, I'm telling you,
you're in a healthy relationship.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Awesome, great, great answer. You talk a lot about strengthening
the relationship with yourself. Why is that so important?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I will tell you why because in my it's actually
almost forty years now, because I am very old. I
will tell you that all these years and I've worked
in organizations and in schools, and I have done everything.
And I will tell you that people tend to blame
others for how they feel. We even grow up right here,
and you know, you drive me crazy, and you're giving
(02:07):
your mother gray hair, and you're whatever, right, we hear
these things. So people like to blame others when they're
not happy. I'm not happy because my partner's not happy,
or you know, they won't change or whatever, And we
act like victims in our lives. And that's a big problem.
So when you start to really get a strong relationship
with yourself and know that you are one hundred percent
(02:28):
responsible for every relationship you're in, one hundred percent, not fifty,
not forty, not eighty, one hundred percent for every relationship
you're in, which pretty much always comes down to boundaries.
But we can talk about that later. You're going to
be happy. That's where you're going to find joy and growth.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
As you were saying this, I was thinking, like for myself,
the boundaries. It's so important to recognize in your body
when things come up for you. And like when you
feel uncomfortable in a certain situation, or you feel triggered,
or you starting out angry, you're agitated, that's a sign
for you to look at what's going on inside yourself
(03:07):
because usually there's a boundary that hasn't been established or
communication that needs to be addressed in order for the
relationship to continue. Otherwise you're going to hold resentment.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Exactly, And whenever you feel resentment of frustration in any relationship,
it's because you don't have a clear boundary. And I
will if I can go here, I'll just go out
here for a minute. Here's the mistake everyone makes with boundaries. Okay,
and I do, like I'm noticing my book behind me.
Boundaries made easy, which was a book I put out
last year because this is such a thing. The big
(03:39):
mistake people make when they're setting is that they think
they're setting a boundary and they're not. So they'll say
something like, don't talk to me that way, and then
the person will talk to them again that way, and
they're like, I set a boundary and they trampled it.
I hear it all the time. Or I'm really uncomfortable
with the way you know we're engaging, so I need
you to stop. Those are not boundaries. Those are just
how you feel. Those are just saying what is in
(04:01):
your world. A boundary always has what I call like teeth.
It has a response, not a consequence. You're not punching anyone.
Bound I would say boundaries are love. Boundaries are meant
to keep people in. Walls are meant to keep people
out right, So a boundary is love. It's meant to
keep people in. And the way you do that is
by being very clear with I don't like you speaking
(04:23):
to me that way, and if you continue, I'm gonna
need to leave a conversation and we can try again
another time. That's a boundary, and if the person keeps
doing it, you don't repeat a boundary ever. You don't
say it twice, you don't say three times. You don't say,
oh I've told them five times, that's on you. If
they continue, you just say you know what again. With love,
(04:44):
you don't have to get angry or upset because it's
not about them, it's about you. You say, I'm you
know what, I'm going to go and hopefully we can
pick this up another time and it'll go better. That's it.
And then you walk away with all your dignity, with
feeling good, with not having screened and yelled other person
without cutting them off or you know, blocking them on
social media or anything else. You just state your boundary
(05:07):
and then you follow through so no one can really
trample your boundaries without your consent. And people really hate
hearing this and it gets very I get a lot
of people upset. But if you want to have a
happy life, you're going to have to get this part.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
And I guess my little tip for those listening would
be like, you can't control anybody's actually, you can only
control your own. So unfortunately, you can have a reasonable
request for someone to do something that would make you
feel more comfortable, but if they're not willing to abide
by that, then that's information for you to like take
(05:46):
that and then change your behavior. And unfortunately it's so
hard sometimes because we do love these people and in
our lives and we want them in our lives, but
you have to prioritize yourself, yep.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
And that's the way you keep them in your life actually, right,
think about it. People think they're being nice, they don't
say anything, and then later you just you know, complain
about your friend to another friend. That's not nice, that's
not kind, that's not loving. So when you're feeling that way,
if you say something to the person, you can again
have some growth, have some movement. Or maybe this person
(06:21):
isn't for you like in a friendship right, or maybe
you have to draw different boundaries with your mother where
you don't see her as much as maybe you would.
You know, in a perfect world you have a certain relationship.
Maybe that's not what this can be, at least not
right now. So it's really accepting also where people are
at and not judging them for where they're at because
they have their own stuff and we can be loving
(06:41):
and kind to them too.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yeah, but they're a right time to get into a relationship.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Ah, I you know, I get asked this a lot.
I always say, it's when you will notice right away
if it's quote unquote the right because it's not. You know,
someone's like, oh I just got divorced a month go,
I can't I'm jumping into something, or it's been two
years so it's the right time. It's not. There is
no right time. That's Number one. How you know is
(07:09):
by who you're attracting. If you're going on dates and
you realize that the let's say, for me, like if
I was going I'm married, actually I can't. But if
I was going on dates and I was meeting men
who were maybe ain't you know, all hated the Rex
or something, you'll notice there's like a theme or you're
thinking they seem different at first, and then you get
(07:29):
to know them a little and you're like, oh god,
this is just like my last Oh my god, you know,
or the one before that. That's how you know your
energy or the work you've done internally hasn't shifted enough
to bring kind of a different kind of person into
your life. People. You know that thing we say about relationships, right,
my other half, my better half, you know, a half
plus a half equal as a whole. And the thing
(07:51):
I always say is that's it's a multiplication problem, not
an addition problem. And when you have a half times
a half, if you remember third grade math, that's a quarter.
And how many of us have been in a quarter relationship?
How many of us have been like out of half?
You know, we're not really in our best way, We
don't maybe we don't know yet, we haven't grown enough yet.
It's not about blame, but it's where we were, and
(08:13):
that person did not bring out the best in us.
We did not together create something really great and whole.
And that's how you know most of the time your energy,
like you talked about, you don't feel good. You don't
most And I would say this mostly I want people
to think about how they feel when they're away from
the person. A lot of times, when we're with a person,
(08:33):
we're like, oh, he's so great, and he's so charismatic,
and he's just I feel so special with him, which,
by the way, sounds like trauma bonding, which I can
talk about but I won't even go there right now.
But when and then when they're away, they're insecure, they're jealous,
they're worried. They're anxious there, and it's like, that's not
how you should feel away from your person. If you
have to be in their presence to feel good, that's bad.
(08:56):
And then the opposite obviously is true if you feel
bad with them, but then you go away and go, oh,
but there, I was being too mean. I was being
too harsh. You know, I was expecting too much. I
have to you know, either way, these two feelings should
all want. You should feel good both. And that's again
how you know that's a good time.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
So it would it be fair to say because you
did the multiplication equation instead of the addition equation, would
it be fair to say that either you have a
relationship that is an addition where it is like one
half plus one half equals one whole, or you're going
to be in a relationship where it's one half times
(09:37):
one half equals a quarter.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
To me, it's a one times one is one is
a whole relationship. Like that's it. It's always multiplication. There
are you know you've been in them. I'm sure like
they're exponential, they're they're synergistic. There's so much going on
it should feel like a whole and you should feel
like a whole person in it. This other person doesn't
complete you, not you know, something more together. That's just
(10:03):
like trauma bonding crap that I listen to. You know,
if anyone when I asked someone think of this, if
I said to you, like, what, what's your perfect man?
You know, when you think about the characteristics of a
perfect person to be with, and this again could even
be friends. I want to be really clear. I would
say things like, the person has my back. I always
(10:24):
feel like we're a team. You know that they're going
to think of me, or that they're going to think
of me first. They're they're always there's a lot of
good will, They're thinking of my best interests. Right. I'm
never saying, oh, my perfect person, Well, I just feel
great when I'm around them. There's just something special. There's
just something I can't describe it. That's trauma bonding. That's
(10:45):
not that's not your person, because you should be able
to really say what those things are if you can't
describe it, if it just feels so something. I get
terrified when clients say that to me. As soon as
they start talking that way, I'm like, oh God, here
we go. And by the way. Trauma bonding is not
that you both have the same trauma and you're coming together.
(11:06):
Trauma bonding is just basically, my dysfunctional past and your
dysfunctional past have some kind of weird dovetailing. You know,
they sort of go together in good ways because it
can feel exciting, but also in really unhealthy ways, and
that's sort of how that happens. But yeah, hopefully that
answers that question, sorry for me.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, yeah, no, it does. It does. So you're basically
saying it should always be a multiplication equation when you
are in a relationship or a friendship with somebody else
and you should be a whole person away from them
and then coming together. It's one times one equals one,
so you're still one whole person.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Yeah, it's great, right, No fractions, no less than, no
more than. We just starre this and we're really we
come together as a whole thing.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah. Yeah. Should you feel like you've healed yourself before
you're ready boats to be in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
It's so funny. I did an episode of my own
podcast not long ago about should you get in a
relationship if you're in therapy because someone one of my
listeners had asked, so I was like, oh, I'll do this.
So I literally just answered this, And the short answer
is this that I can meet with someone for so long,
like do therapy with them when they're single. Right, we'll
do the work. It's great, they're growing, they're changing. And
(12:19):
then sometimes I'm the one who has to push and
like you're ready, like go, you know, start dating. Let's see,
because that's where all you're crazy comes out, like you
can be It's kind of like learning to play tennis
and not playing against anybody, do you know what I mean?
Like until you're on the court, like in a game,
you're not gonna know if your skills are good. So
I always say there's no there's no perfect time, and
(12:42):
there's no being one hundred percent ready. Hopefully you're ready
enough that you're not going to lose yourself and go
into some depression if it doesn't work. But I do
want you to try and see what works and what
doesn't and oh yeah this came out, and then come
back to therapy and let's talk about that because that's
where the real need is.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
M If someone's getting out of abusive relationship, how long
do you typically recommend not dating.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
I it's funny. I as much as I want to
say that, I don't say that, like, oh it's no
time I tell. I tell people at least six months.
I do if it's been an abusive relationship, and if
there's a lot of work to do so that you
don't get into another abusive relationship, because that is the
worst worst. When I have somebody who you know is
(13:30):
coming along, and it might be longer, but if it's
it should be at least that long. As you're working,
as you're dating yourself, as you're learning yourself, as you're
healing yourself, it should be at least that long. So
I do when I have clients who and I have,
I say, you know, for six months when I'm going
to talk about dating. And at six months we can
have a new conversation. Let's see where you're at. And
(13:52):
usually the person at that point it's nice to just
put it out of your head so you're not even
worried about it. And at that point they often say
to me, I don't I don't think I'm quite there yet.
I'm like, all right, let's let's wait a little longer.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
If someone feels like the spark is gone in their relationship.
What can you do to reignite it?
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Yeah, oh gosh, I talked about it. I have a
lot of episodes, so this two people always ask. So
I want to say this first. You know, intimacy and
sex are different things, and I think people immediately think
of and I'll say with love, men especially think of
sex right away, but women do too. As how we'll
(14:43):
reignite you know, sex, it's it's sex and without the intimacy,
and intimacy is because it's emotional closeness, without that vulnerability,
without that trust, we it all falls apart on the
other side. So the thing you really want to build
is trust, and that's how you get the spark back.
And trust is made up of three things. People think
(15:04):
I trust them or I don't, and that's not true.
Trust is three things. It's goodwill, which I mentioned before,
is that thinking this person has my back and my
best interests at heart. It's honesty, of course, right what
we say, Integrity that I'm honest, you know I can
believe what you say to me. And competence. So if
you know you say you're gonna beat the restaurant five,
(15:25):
you're there at five. You you know say you're gonna
take the garbage out. You take the garbage out the
when these three things. And the problem is a lot
of people will say to me, well, I know, you know,
when my partner's always really honest with me, like I
don't think they're really cheating or anything. You know, they're
they're very honest and they tell me, but they don't really.
But they also feel like their partner's a little selfish
(15:46):
and doesn't really have their back first, you know, isn't
thinking of them first when they make choices. So I
like this. I call it like the trust triad. I
like it because you can just zero in on where
you have to work because when you just say real trust,
it's such a big like thing. Build trust? What do
I do? So what you do to build intimacy, to
(16:06):
get a spark back is build trust because when you
have that, think of that we're vulnerable, we're sharing at
a deeper level. We want to have sex all the time.
You know, we're feeling so connected right and sex is
really fun because we're willing to try different things. We're
not thinking like how's you know, how's my butt look?
I have to back out of the room, you know,
like we're not doing that because we fully trust this person.
(16:28):
And I think people miss that boat a lot when
they talk to me about, you know, being having a
spark again. And then the other thing I say to
focus on is what I call micro connections, So it's
the little connections you have and putting those in. One
of my favorites easy for people to walk away with
today is always greet your partner at the door every
(16:50):
single time they come home. If you're you know, whoever's
home first, whoever's home, you greet at the door. And
I say greet like greet like a golden retriever, like
how your golden would be if you walked in the house.
So it's that beautiful thing where you stop with you know,
if it's kids or homework or cooking or working on
your laptop or whatever you're doing. Stop. I mean obviously
(17:11):
for in the middle of the meeting. If you work
at home, all right, I'll give you a minute, but
leave what you're doing. It takes two minutes. Even in
a meeting. You could say, oh my gosh, I need
a bio break. I'll be right back. Go to the
door when they come in. Just be there like full greeting, Hey,
it's really oh my god, I missed you. I'm so
happy you're home. Make out a little if you want,
hug whatever, just really connect. It takes of time. This
(17:33):
with my man, and it takes a it's about thirty seconds,
and it is so huge to reconnect like that. And
if you don't have thirty seconds, like what are we
even talking about? I don't even know how to help you,
you know, And so to just have a minute like that,
just that thirty seconds of true connection like hey, good,
you know, eyes, maybe full body, a hug, something, and
(17:56):
then go back to what you're doing. But the you know,
someone comes home and you're like, how is your day fine?
You know, like you're yelling to each other. There's nothing
there and you haven't seen each other. Like connect micro connections,
little connections. Really think of those and that will help
bring the spark back too.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, if we look at this question building trust through
the lens of friendship, say that there was a betrayal
that happened, and you know you had to take some
time apart, but now you're coming together and wanting to
build a friendship again. How does one rebuild a friendship
using that triad meth.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
That same thing very much. If there's been a betrayal
in a friendship, right, you really have to think of that.
And so I do love this when you break it
down and think. Okay, first of all, before you even
go there, I would ask you why you want to
be friends with this person again? You know they have
betrayed you. It doesn't mean that wants a cheater, always
a cheater, thing or whatever people say is bs. You
(18:55):
know I was, I'm a recovering heroin addict. I mean
like people change. You know, I'm very different than what
I was then, and we all change and that's the
beauty of people. So getting in your head that someone's
always going to be that way. But and I will
also say but and also trust your instincts. What you know,
why are you afraid of being alone without this best friend?
(19:17):
Are you afraid of who you are without this person?
Are you like, is there fear driving your want to reconnect?
Fear of them going off and having a great life?
This is true and romance too. You know, fear never
made a relationship better. Your motivation has to be from
a love based emotion, compassion, kindness, connection, joy, ease, growth,
(19:38):
You know right. So that's the first thing I would
say is figure that out, because that's a big question.
I see a lot. I have so many clients who
want to be friends again with someone, and I ask like, why,
what do you may they're trying to recapture a time
in their life. It's all fear based. But if it's
love based, if it's on one of those other things,
then I would say, then break it down. So if
(20:00):
there's a betrayal, then obviously the big thing is integrity.
You don't think the person's honest. They lie to you
in some way. Clearly they don't put your needs first
and have your back right. And but the third thing
I would look at is that competency. Are they competent
to be what you need? And a best friend? Like?
What do you need in a best friend? What does
that mean to you? Do you know what I'm saying?
(20:22):
My thing is that I have a caller, my wife,
you know, my best friend. Everyone should have a wife
and a husband. I say, that's the goal. My little wifey.
You know, whenever there's never judgment, that's my thing. I
mean never. And I've done some horrible things, you know,
We've been friends like thirty years, like I've definitely been
an asshole and done stupid things and whatever, not routinely,
(20:46):
but and she is never think good. She's always compassionate first,
you know, like are you okay? Like that's her first response,
Well you okay? Are you all right? That's her first
response every single time for thirty years. That's what I need.
Then I can be vulnerable, then I can share the thing,
(21:06):
then we can go there. So you have to decide,
you know, you got to really think, like what is
this thing I'm looking for? What do I need? I
notice that people focus on what they want when they
don't get what they need. So it's like, well, you
don't call me first. You know, I need a friend
who calls me first. No you don't. What is that?
What kind of crap is that? What kind of keeping
score bs? Is that? That is not why you're I
(21:28):
could care less if I don't text back Ronda, my bestie.
She just assumes I was busy. She assumes something else happened.
She doesn't take it personally. She knows I love her
and we'll catch up later. Like there's no none of
that for me. That's what I need. So you have
to think like if you're focused on your friend not
being you know, they don't make plans. Ever, I always
(21:49):
have to make the plans. That's the stuff I hear
or I always have to text them first. What is
it that you really need that you're not getting that.
That's a representation of what is that representing to you?
And that's how you use the triad for that. You know,
I want to know that they it seems like when
they go off in their life, they don't think about
(22:09):
me at all. So there's again that goodwill piece. So
that's what you have to build and you have to
talk about that, how it shows up for you what
you're looking for, and you have to very honest conversations
both ways. And by the way, just the betrayer was
also obviously missing something in the relationship that they would
ever do that. So you know, it's a two way street.
(22:34):
It's always a two way street. It's not you know,
if you sit and just be the victim and the betrayal,
then where are you right? You can't you can't continue
the relationship with a friendship or a romance as a victim.
It's not going to work.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Great answer, can you talk about compatibility and relationships and
compatibility in friendships. What are the main markers that someone
is compatible with you and and you grow and become
more compatible.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Yeah, yes, and yes and yes. And I love that
you said compatible and not people. I think focus too
much with friends and with lovers with that we like
to do the same things. That has nothing to do
with compatibility. And that, by the way, is the problem
with dating appspot, because you know, you're like, oh, I ski,
(23:23):
I want someone who skis, and I do this, and
I want someone who does this, and that loses a lot, right,
all the stuff we're talking about. So compatibility to me
is that. And I will tell you my man we
are he's from upstate New York and I'm from the city.
Like we have very different like country mouse, city mouse
things and look like he loves being outdoors and exercising
(23:46):
and I just want to wear stilettos and I no
oreo like I you know, like we really on the
outside have nothing in common kind of, but our values
are the same, our humor is the same. Like there's
this way that we have this incredible compatibility. So I would, again,
what do you need versus what do you want? I
need someone who listens. I need someone who has my back.
(24:07):
I need someone who thinks of me, maybe even before
he thinks of himself. Not all the time, but a
good you know. Sometimes I need someone who's going to
disagree with me, but be non judgmental and kind in
the disagreement. You know what I mean? These are what
I need. That's compatibility. Now, when I met Jerrie, he
(24:28):
wasn't as emotionally. His emotional IQ wasn't as high as
it is now, as you can imagine, right, you know, psychologists,
it's we're the worst, right, Like, who wants to be
with us? I don't know. I don't know. I'm always thinking,
thank you for staying with me, you know. But I've
taught him things over time. He's so funny. He always
reads my books and my blog. You know. He's like, oh,
(24:48):
I'm learning, you know, and he'll he'll bring out a
tool at home, Like that's what I want, someone who
wants to learn and grow. And that's compatibility. Do you
have the same ideas about where you want to be
and more important, how you want to feel? When I
tell couples to make goals every year and friends too,
I do it with my friend. When you make goals
(25:08):
every year, don't make make feelings goals. I want to
feel safe, I want to feel I want to feel enthusiastic.
I want like what a great you know, January is
not too far away. Like, make a goal for how
you want to feel as a couple, Make a goal
for how you want your friendship to feel, and stay
on that track. That and then your other kind of goal.
(25:30):
You know, I want to be happy and enthusiastic at work.
You know, guess what when I something comes at me,
like getting asked to be on your podcast, I'm like,
well that make me happy? Is that it makes me enthusiastic? Yes,
so let me do it. That's how you can actually
decide what the doing part is by when you have
how you want to feel first. When you do that,
your whole life changes.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Hmmm. I love that. I love that so much. And
you're saying that you teach your husband Gary so much
about human psychology, obviously because you're a psychologist. Do you
learn things from him? What does you in that relationship?
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Oh my gosh, so much patience. I I like to
skip steps and like jump things. And you know, he
was he's ex Navy and he's just like a rule
guy and does the thing. You know, he's I'm I'm
not risk averse. I'll try And there's a but again,
(26:27):
there's a compatibility and non judgment around it. And here's
the biggie to take away. What you want is a preference.
It's not right or wrong. Like I'll have couples say
to me, well, I'm like Gary and I. He would say,
maybe you used to I'm a saver. He's a saver
and I'm a spender. Right And no, no, no, everybody spends
in a relationship. Okay, everybody spends money in a relationship.
(26:50):
It's just that savers have decided what it's okay to
spend on. So it's such bs to say someone's a
savor and someone's a spender. It's a preference. It is
a prefer and if you honor it as a preference,
you can really come together. It is not right to
want more sex or wrong to want less sex. It
is not right to want to go out more and
(27:11):
wrong to want to stay in more. These are preferences.
And when you can understand that and get rid of
the judgment, it completely transforms a relationship and then you
really work on If you're a team. If we're a team,
if that's the value I really hold, then we will
as a team decide how to address this and what
to do next, as opposed to you're over there and
(27:32):
I'm over here, and we're polarized, and I'm trying to
get you to come on my side. If you're on
opposite sides of a friendship, of a love relationship, of
any relationship, you're in trouble. This is you're in a
lot of trouble. So you have to get rid of
the sides thing, and you have to understand that everything's
a preference and there's no right or wrong, and that's
(27:53):
a hard one to go. So yeah, so Gary would
not agree that he won't spend I'm with someone who
won't spend fifty dollars on a pair of sneakers and
I'm wearing Stelle McCartney shoes. You know, like we are
very I'm like bougie as hell. He not at all,
Like sometimes yeah, like how much was that bag? Oh
(28:14):
my gosh. But again we're open about it. We support
each other and do you know what I mean? When
you find your partner's happiness, you allow things that because
they are not because you have to be right, and
that's how you succeed, and that's how you grow.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
What are some of the biggest reasons relationships ultimately fail.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
The biggie is that the real reason they fail is
because there's competition. I say this all the time. Couples
always come to me and say and again, friends too
will say, oh, we don't communicate. Right, you know what's
the biggest problem in your relationship? Don't communicate. That's not
the problem. That is the symptom of the actual cancer.
The cancer is that you compete. You compete for you know, Oh,
(29:10):
you went out with your friends on Friday, so I
get to go out on Saturday. You spent money on this,
so I get to spumy on this. And when you
have kids it gets worse. It's like, well, you took
Jack to piano on Friday, so I'm gonna take Sophie
to baseball on Tuesday. We there's so much of this
tip for tat keeping score. And when you keep score again,
(29:31):
it's like a game. You know, it's not your turn
to put away the dishes. That's my favorite. It's not
your turn to put away the dishes. If you can
put if I can put away the dishes before I leave.
It's one less thing for him to do later. I'm
happy to do it because right there you have to
get out of that competitive keeping score, watching what they
do comparing it to what you do. That is the
(29:53):
number one reason in my forty years of experience in
multiple even different countries, is the real reason things fail
for friendships too. It's competing. Ohh yeah, you've got to
be happy. You know, you get a promotion or something
really great comes your way. Oh my gosh, I'm so
happy for you, as opposed to oh, so you're gonna
be gone all the time now because now you're whatever.
(30:16):
You know, maybe friends from my childhood be like, oh
you have you have a PhD. Now you think you're
better than us. It's like, I, no, I don't at all.
What are we like? Aren't you thrilled that someone like
you know, like that this was something I accomplished or
wrote books or whatever. You know. This is Whenever you
get any of that edge, that's a big problem, and
(30:38):
that's what takes people down because they don't have your
best interest at heart because you can't trust them. That's
what ends up breaking down the trust.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So what happens when, say a friendship, you start noticing whoa,
it seems like there's some sort of competition here. It
seems like maybe this person, like I'm feeling like I
can't share full because they seem to react a certain
way when I am saying I'm doing some of these things.
Where do you go from there?
Speaker 3 (31:07):
So here's my favorite. So I always one of the
little things I say is, don't sack a relationship. Sac
don't offer suggestions, give advice, or criticize. And so when
we tell people what they are, you know, you seem
really competitive. You know you're acting really funny. When I
share this stuff. Whoever has said, oh you're right, I'm
so sorry, right, Like no one responds with like, oh yeah,
(31:31):
my bulb went off, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Right, You're gonna get defensive when you hear that.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Actly, So don't sack, don't offer suggestions, give advice, or criticize. Instead,
you want to ask what I call collaborative questions. So
if someone's acting that way, right, if you're noticing that
they're sort of doing this thing, what people get into
is like I have to share how I feel. It's like, okay,
maybe eventually could you just ask a question. Maybe you're wrong,
(31:58):
you know, feelings aren't facts. We don't know anything yet,
so i'd much rather you asked a question like, hey,
when I said I got you know, maybe you told
a friend like when I said I was going to
do this podcast it, I don't know, how did you
feel when I said that? Now here's what happens ninety
timescent on the time, so get ready. People will tell
you what they were thinking, not what they're feeling. Oh well,
(32:22):
I was just thinking, that's great. You know, you're doing
your thing, and I'm glad you're doing your thing. Okay,
but how are you feeling? Like? Were you were you worried?
Were you concerned? Were you you know, you're happy for me?
Like what we were you feeling this? I'm telling you.
Sometimes they'll keep going to thoughts. People have such a
hard time with a feeling thing, and you just have
(32:42):
to stick with it with love, with you know, loving intention.
And what happens sometimes is that people are just concerned.
Maybe someone and I'm just making this up about your life,
but maybe a friend thought this was too soon to
do it, or maybe they thought, oh, she's going to
get criticized about it. And I, and I love her
and I don't want her to get criticized, so there's
sort of so it seems like they're acting funky, like
(33:03):
they're not happy for you, but they're worried about you actually,
or maybe it was a parent or someone who knows.
So unless you ask, you don't know. And a lot
of times people don't even know why they're acting funny
or don't even know that they are. They're you know,
the subconscious is ruling the day, right, so they don't
get it. Here, the best piece of research you'll ever
(33:23):
have is this. It's from Timothy Wilson. It's that our
conscious brains process information at a rate of forty bits
per second. So consciously you and I are talking, you're
processing at a rate of forty bits per second, but
our subconscious are unconscious brains process at a rate of
eleven million bits per second. Eleven million. So people don't
(33:46):
hear what you say, they hear what you mean. So
when that alignment isn't there, and you know, we've all
talked to someone at work who said all the right
things and we thought they were full of crap, right,
Like everyone's had this, you're and you can't pinpoint it.
It's your subconscious that pinpoint. There was something out of alignment.
What they were saying wasn't matching something else, and you
picked up on it. And you can call that energy
(34:07):
vibration whatever you want to call it, but it's it's science.
I mean, it's science. So we're picking up on subtle
cues that we don't even know we are. So your
friend might not know that you're picking up on that
eleven million. So you're getting something. And a lot of
times people will deny it. I'm telling you right now.
They'll say, like, no, I'm really happy for you. I
don't know what you're talking about. That's why you don't
(34:28):
label it, because then they just really go there. And
instead you'll say, okay, I don't know it, just you know,
is there anything? Then I would ask another question, is
there anything you think I should be worried about doing this?
You know, you might ask a friend, is there anything
you think I'm missing about doing this podcast? Is there
any like? Tell me, I want to know the truth.
Is there anything you're worried about or thinking about with
(34:48):
me doing this? And that's what you'll get answers. People
love to tell you what they're worried about. And that's
where they'll get more real and maybe it's that they
were worried about you. Maybe they'll say, well, I'm wor
worried that you're so busy already. I don't know, it
just seems like you're always so busy. And then you
might say, do you are you worried? I want to
have time for you, like for our friendship. Is that
(35:11):
something we should think about? Do you see how this
went from like they're not happy for me, I'm pissed
to maybe we have a conversation here we haven't had,
and maybe they'll say to you, yeah, you've been really busy.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Our friendship hasn't felt so strong lately, you know, like
you have a real conversation because you're not defensive and
you're answering that eleven million and then they come to
where you are. So that is the way. Don't sack
ask questions and don't try to ask a question that's
a suggestion, like have you thought of doing X? You
(35:44):
know that's still a suggestion. But can you tell me
more about that? Is my favorite collaborative question. Can you
tell me more about whatever you know? Like how you're feeling,
or what you thought about that, or what I said
earlier that I said, could you tell me more? Could
you tell me more? Great? But even something like that,
My favorite if you know, if you have Missmax mismatched
(36:05):
sex drives, let's say that comes up a lot in relationships,
is to say, instead of saying, you know, I want
more sex or I want less sex, or I don't
like how you did that, I don't like how you
went down on me or something, you know, instead of
saying that, because again people don't react nicely. My favorite
question is to ask someone else what would you like
to see more of in our sex life? It is
(36:28):
the best question. You will get so much good information
and they might start to say, well I don't like
when they're like no, no, no, not what you don't like? What?
What do you want to see more of? And sometimes
that first answers, well I want to have sex more.
I'm like, yeah, okay, but what do you want to
see more of in it? And that conversation is amazing.
No one's defensive, no one's upset, no one's felt criticized
(36:51):
or judged, and it's great. It's growth. You know, we're
doing it together. It's like a team. And you can
even ask the other person and did you want to
ask me what I'd like to see more of? If
you don't, it's cool, but you could yea. And usually
because a conversation has been open and friendly, they'll say, well, okay, yeah,
what do you want to see more of? And you
(37:12):
can have this bigger conversation. But you can ask that
in a friendship, what would you like to see more
of in our connection? What would you like to see
more of? In how we spend our time? What would
you like to see see the more of? You're talking
about what you do want, not what you don't want,
and it's very obvious what you don't want when you
hear about what people do want. So instead of getting
there and feeling defensive and angry and frustrated and resentful
(37:36):
all lovely feelings, we get to feel like we're going
towards something because then you can give such right like
so if I, you know, came home from work and
grewd you at the door, would that feel good? You know, like, yeah,
let's do that. Let's try that. You know, you start
to write, get on it, and there's an enthusiasm and
of growth together. So that's my favorite little tool.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah. I was just going to say, after you were
talking about the end see and asking what you would
want more of in an intimate way with a partner,
you can probably apply that to friendship too, and you
use that as a clarity question so that you can
start building that friendship in the direction that you have.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
Yeah, yep, it's great and you'll feel good doing it.
You're not afraid to have that conversation. Most people are
afraid to have a conversation and avoid it because they're
worried about conflict, and most people are very conflict avoidant.
So there's no conflict here. Hey, what would you like
to see more of in our friendship? What would you
like to see so you'll actually have the conversation. It's
so much better, so much better. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Yeah, and I'm sure the other person will feel hurt too, like.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
Oh, I really value that.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yeah, Okay. How can you get over the fear of
rejection in a relationship but also in a friendship because
making friends as an adult is very more difficult than
it was in our childhood years.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
It really is. You know, there's the number one fear
all humans have from a biological perspective is being rejected
or abandoned, end of, end of there's nothing else that's it,
that's at the very very bottom. And we're built that way,
DNA up right, because if you got rejected out of
the Klan, you were going to die. Right. So it's
(39:21):
been a human homo sapien imperative to be accepted and
there is to understand it is number one. So I'm
worried about being you know, I'm worried. I'm scared about
this is number one because then you start to again
align those forty and eleven million bits, you start to
get those like in line. There is no one easy
(39:45):
way to get over your fear of rejection or abandonment. However,
it's really what we've seen from the research that works
is mindfulness. Mindfulness is the key is if you were
in your moments, because in the moment, it's like here
I am, I'm at a mixer and I'm gonna say
(40:05):
hi to see you know, I'm gonna walk up and
I'm gonna remember you know, you're being mindful. You're in
your moment. You're in the here and now non judgmentally.
Not I'm a loose I want to say this really
quick before I go to self awareness and mindfulness are
two different things. Self awareness is judgmental. It's by definition,
I'm judging things about myself. I'm saying, like, for me,
(40:27):
I'm a little controlling, I'm very controlling. That is like,
so I'm very self aware, I'm controlling. The problem is
I'm not always mindful about my controlling behavior. That makes sense,
like I'll be in a moment being controlling and then
I'm like, oh god, I'm doing it. That's the difference.
But when i'm doing it, when I catch myself or
if my kids do, or my heavy does or someone
(40:48):
catches it, the important thing is not to be judging
myself what's wrong with me? Why did I do that?
And instead to be like, okay, let's get let's take
a breath, let's get in the moment. I'm gonna stop
being stop being controlling right now. And that's what you
can do, and you can ship flip the script right there.
So mindfulness helps you be in those moments of knowing.
(41:11):
The problem is that we act on that autopilot. And
so think of that eleven million bits. If I'm walking
up to someone and I haven't done mindfulness and I
haven't checked in with myself. What's my energy? Like if
I'm going on a first date with someone and I'm
sitting at the table and I'm waiting, and my energy
is like, oh, what if they don't like me? What
if they don't guess what they're picking up on? I
(41:32):
probably shouldn't like them. I probably I call it a wobble.
There's a wobble. They're getting the inconsistency because you're there,
like looking all good and you got your nails done,
You're all happening. You're sitting there and you're looking so cute,
but inside you're worried or like, what's wrong with this guy?
There's always something wrong every guys something wrong. He's picking
(41:53):
up on that. It doesn't matter that your words are fabulous,
it doesn't matter that you're saying all the right things.
And then he's like, what's wrong with this chick? Like
this girl? Like what's up with this woman? Because she's
saying things but I get a different feeling and so
that feels like a red flag? Do you know? You
know what I'm saying? And then we're picking up on
each other's red flags where there really aren't any. There's
(42:14):
just some insecurity totally.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Yeah. Yeah, it sounds very, very very a very anxious
attachment energy.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
Yep, there you go, an avoidant attachment energy. You'll do
the same thing. Yeah, you'll sit there like it doesn't
work out, who cares? You know, you can be too
avoidant with it too, and then either way it doesn't
feel good. Like, oh, this person is saying they're looking
for a commitment, but there's something I'm picking up that
they're not mm And a lot of people have this
(42:46):
with someone else. So like this guy says he wants somebody,
but he's not, Like I don't know, I felt like
he wasn't.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Yeah, how do you balance being present in the moment
and practicing that mindfulness and just like being fully there
in dating or in friendship. And sometimes this happens to
me where I'm like, Okay, now I know how to
fully be present in my body and and like be
(43:14):
in the moment and like we have magnificent energy and connection.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
But then I kind of get too lost in the
moment and I'm not thinking too far ahead, and then
I'm you know, but then I'm told like, but you
don't want to think too far ahead because then that
you get like anxiety or you know, you're not living
in the moment, So how.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Do you balance that? That's still something that I haven't
mastered yet.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
Yeah, I think you're I love that you would get into.
We call that a flow state, when you get kind
of you know, when you're sort of lost in something
I love. If you're in a flow state, I don't
know what you have to worry about or think about.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
So let me tell you it's it's with dating men
who are are have narcissistic characteristic traits, and or men
who are not healthy or healed. And so I'm now
I've gotten much better with identifying the red flags and
(44:15):
setting clear boundaries and removing myself from the situation before
things get too out of hand and you get too attached.
So I think maybe that might be the answer. But
as I'm dating now, I'm like, I think I'm like
dating to meet somebody that I can feel like I
can be fully present in the moment. And I guess
(44:35):
that's part of the trust building and like getting to
know someone before falling in love and all of those things.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
I love it. Well, I'd say a few things for that.
One is, if you're present in the moment, you know
how you're feeling. So for I have a client who's
dating right now, and the guy dropped her off. They
met somewhere right, but it was she walked and in
this little town and he met her and he's driving
(45:06):
and he said, oh, I insist on driving you home,
and she led him and then he wanted to come
in and she let and I said to her, he
shouldn't even act like that, and she's and she said,
you know what, I felt funny, But I was trying
to be nice. You know. I didn't want to seem
like uptight. I didn't want to seem a certain way.
(45:28):
I was like, ah, so you know that's the thing.
I think we do feel something in the moment. I
think you're probably your instincts are way better than you
think they are, and so you're questioning because you've grown.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
And right now that you say that, it's actually very true,
because I was drinking a lot in these types of relationships.
So yes, now that I've cut alcohol out of the equation,
it's like I can listen to that voice a lot
clearer now.
Speaker 3 (45:58):
Yeah, well, and think of out why you were drinking.
So your good instincts were always there but want in
a moment or being caught up in something. We let
that go for a while and we write. And so
we use alcohol or pod or people use all kinds
of things too. It's a buffer, that's what alcohol does.
(46:22):
It's a buffer between you and the other person, between
true intimacy. So it allows you to stay in something
while muting right, all all the red flags or all
the you know, all the things you know. And so yeah,
I always encourage people like on those first dates, never
don't ever drink anything like just or one glass over
the course of the evening. But if you and and
(46:44):
notice how much they drink on a first right, So
when I go out, of course, what I'm saying to
people is, oh, I don't drink, you know. And if
anyone had a strong reaction to that, even that, I
can tell, I could tell right away, right, like why
are you having such a strong who cares? It's like
I said, I don't even I don't eat broccoli, Like
would you be upset if I said I don't eat
broccoli like, no, I'm allergic to broccoli. I don't think
(47:05):
you'd care. I don't think you'd be trying to shove
broccoli down my throat at dinner. So if they're like pushing,
well you can't have one drink really again, boundaries right away.
But women especially want to be nice. We don't want
to appear frigid or angry or anal or type A
or whatever. Ah, I'm so tired of it. So I know,
(47:26):
you know, I can tell I've known you a whole
half hour, and I can tell that you already know,
and you don't trust it. And every I'm telling you
I talk to women over and over and then too,
they already know, but they don't trust what they know.
They think somehow or they want what it is so bad?
But he's so good looking, or he has such a
good job, or he you know. And by the way,
(47:49):
on the list of my dream man, nowhere on there
to say how much money he should make, or how
tall he had to be, or anything else, because what
we really need that has nothing to do with Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
Yeah, If you are attracted to somebody who does drink,
is that.
Speaker 3 (48:11):
A bad thing? How do you.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Gauge like is this is this a red flag that
I need to look at? Or is this okay? Because
this guy's behavior doesn't change when he drinks. You know
after dating a few alcoholics, that's definitely like a big
thing on my radar.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Yeah, as it should be. Yeah, and I'm I'm married
to a normy. We call them like people who can
just tell I think the big thing is again, listen
to your instincts. It is, it's like and it's is
it every time you go out? Is you know? Is
it at home? Also? Is it? Is it ubiquitous? Like?
(48:55):
Is it something that's because for me? And it could
be pat it could be a bunch of things. I
don't want that in friendship and I don't want that
in in love. I think it should be you know,
do you always have to have sex? Do they always
have to drink to have sex? Do they like where?
Is it right? It's not the amount we know that
that's not one of the criteria we use for a problem.
(49:17):
And again, you don't even have to diagnose them as anything.
It's more for yourself, like when I'm with this person,
do I feel like I'm really with them? You know?
And a lot of people drink and it's fine, you
know most Gary's fine with his drinking, you know, but
Gary will say things like while I was in a
bad mood, so I didn't want to drink, you know,
(49:37):
like he. To him, it's like a fun social thing.
He would never like drink at home alone like he
it's and I wouldn't be with someone who did. It
wouldn't be for me what I'm looking for. And it's
okay if it's for you, But think about it. I
think we take certain things like as as is, and
of course you kind of thing because everybody drinks, and
we don't really think about when I've noticed when I've
(50:00):
been out with certain friends or something, it's like they
don't want to drink, like, oh, if you're not drinking,
I'm not going to drink like they don't. They don't care.
It doesn't again, we haven't broccoli or not like they don't.
It doesn't have any heat when And I think that's
the thing you have to think about. Do you notice
an energy shift when you're talking about it when you
don't when you do, like you know, what activities you do.
(50:23):
I think those are the things you have to really
key into. And so yeah, that for sure. Especially, I
can't tell you how many people I've worked with who
date alcoholics or addicts over and over, like you know,
and they'll say they weren't using when I met them.
They wasn't like this when I met them. And there's
usually probably in your background, some drug or alcohol person
(50:47):
in the background, because that's like a gimme whenever I
have someone who has that currently, I know. It's the
first thing I asked, Michael, who is alcoholic in your house?
Like or you know that you knew, or in the
family there's something or or a dysfunctional family dynamic. Get
me mix it absolutely absolutely, It's always there every time,
so you know, it's like trace it down. So this
(51:09):
is what looks appealing. And I always say again, it's
about the intimacy and trust. You know that it's always whated.
So you got to have the trust and to have
the intimacy. Those are the things that go together. And
you can't have that if there's drinking all the time,
you just you can't doesn't exist. I know some people think, oh,
that's how I get intimate because I drink and then
(51:30):
I can open up and I can It's like you
need to drink to open up. That's not real intimacy.
Drinking doesn't bring out some other true whatever. It's just uncovers.
It's a focuser. It just uncovers something, that's all. But
if you can't do it sober, then I get concerned.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Yeah, great advice. Thank you so much for joining me, Abby.
It really a pleasure. Can people find you on Instagram
or social media?
Speaker 3 (51:58):
Yeah, they're all over. I'm sure you'll post it everywhere.
But really, my website, abbymedcalf dot com and it's with
a d MEDCLF, is where the easiest way to get
all my socials and the podcast and all my tips.
And I do have a free mindfulness starter kit if
anybody wants that, that is on the website. It is
really free. It's nothing weird. So if people want something
(52:21):
like that a resource, I have a lot of free
resources on the website. It's meant to be free.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
And once your podcast name again.
Speaker 3 (52:27):
It's relationships made easy. We were yeah, like eighty eighth
last week in the United States. Yeah, we're in relationships. Yeah,
we're We're going into our seventh season in August, so
it's really exciting. If anyone liked me here, they'll love
the podcast.
Speaker 2 (52:44):
Yes, yes, absolutely awesome. Thank you so much for thanking you.
Thank you so much for listening to Rachel Goes Growth
follow us on Instagram and TikTok for exclusive video content
at Rachel gos Rogue Podcast
This is Rachel Go's Rogue.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome back to another episode of Rachel Goes Rogue with
your host, Rachel Savannah Lettis. Today is an episode I'm
really excited to talk about. I have had dating coaches
join me in the past, but today I'm excited to
talk to a guest about kind of the next step
in that process building healthy friendships and relationships. I'm happy
(00:32):
to bring on doctor Abby Medcalf, who is armed with humor,
a ton of research in over thirty years of hands
on experience. She teaches simple tools and strategies to make
all relationships the best they've ever been.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Yeah, so welcome, thank you, thank you for having me.
I'm excited to have a great conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Can you define what a successful relationship means to you?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yes. I always say that success in anything actually is
joy and growth. If you've got joy, if you've got
growth in a very consistent way, you've got a successful relate.
And everything is relationships, so work and home and friends
and lovers, and it's all the same. So that is
my very simple definition. And you can always check in
(01:16):
with yourself and think, like in this relationship at work,
or it with this person, or with my mom or
whoever my best friend. Do I feel like we have
a lot of joy? And do I feel like we're
always growing together? Like, is this something where my own
growth is supported, where I feel like I can support theirs?
If you can answer yes to those, I'm telling you,
you're in a healthy relationship.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Awesome, great, great answer. You talk a lot about strengthening
the relationship with yourself. Why is that so important?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I will tell you why because in my it's actually
almost forty years now, because I am very old. I
will tell you that all these years and I've worked
in organizations and in schools, and I have done everything.
And I will tell you that people tend to blame
others for how they feel. We even grow up right here,
and you know, you drive me crazy, and you're giving
(02:07):
your mother gray hair, and you're whatever, right, we hear
these things. So people like to blame others when they're
not happy. I'm not happy because my partner's not happy,
or you know, they won't change or whatever, And we
act like victims in our lives. And that's a big problem.
So when you start to really get a strong relationship
with yourself and know that you are one hundred percent
(02:28):
responsible for every relationship you're in, one hundred percent, not fifty,
not forty, not eighty, one hundred percent for every relationship
you're in, which pretty much always comes down to boundaries.
But we can talk about that later. You're going to
be happy. That's where you're going to find joy and growth.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
As you were saying this, I was thinking, like for myself,
the boundaries. It's so important to recognize in your body
when things come up for you. And like when you
feel uncomfortable in a certain situation, or you feel triggered,
or you starting out angry, you're agitated, that's a sign
for you to look at what's going on inside yourself
(03:07):
because usually there's a boundary that hasn't been established or
communication that needs to be addressed in order for the
relationship to continue. Otherwise you're going to hold resentment.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Exactly, And whenever you feel resentment of frustration in any relationship,
it's because you don't have a clear boundary. And I
will if I can go here, I'll just go out
here for a minute. Here's the mistake everyone makes with boundaries. Okay,
and I do, like I'm noticing my book behind me.
Boundaries made easy, which was a book I put out
last year because this is such a thing. The big
(03:39):
mistake people make when they're setting is that they think
they're setting a boundary and they're not. So they'll say
something like, don't talk to me that way, and then
the person will talk to them again that way, and
they're like, I set a boundary and they trampled it.
I hear it all the time. Or I'm really uncomfortable
with the way you know we're engaging, so I need
you to stop. Those are not boundaries. Those are just
how you feel. Those are just saying what is in
(04:01):
your world. A boundary always has what I call like teeth.
It has a response, not a consequence. You're not punching anyone.
Bound I would say boundaries are love. Boundaries are meant
to keep people in. Walls are meant to keep people
out right, So a boundary is love. It's meant to
keep people in. And the way you do that is
by being very clear with I don't like you speaking
(04:23):
to me that way, and if you continue, I'm gonna
need to leave a conversation and we can try again
another time. That's a boundary, and if the person keeps
doing it, you don't repeat a boundary ever. You don't
say it twice, you don't say three times. You don't say,
oh I've told them five times, that's on you. If
they continue, you just say you know what again. With love,
(04:44):
you don't have to get angry or upset because it's
not about them, it's about you. You say, I'm you
know what, I'm going to go and hopefully we can
pick this up another time and it'll go better. That's it.
And then you walk away with all your dignity, with
feeling good, with not having screened and yelled other person
without cutting them off or you know, blocking them on
social media or anything else. You just state your boundary
(05:07):
and then you follow through so no one can really
trample your boundaries without your consent. And people really hate
hearing this and it gets very I get a lot
of people upset. But if you want to have a
happy life, you're going to have to get this part.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
And I guess my little tip for those listening would
be like, you can't control anybody's actually, you can only
control your own. So unfortunately, you can have a reasonable
request for someone to do something that would make you
feel more comfortable, but if they're not willing to abide
by that, then that's information for you to like take
(05:46):
that and then change your behavior. And unfortunately it's so
hard sometimes because we do love these people and in
our lives and we want them in our lives, but
you have to prioritize yourself, yep.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
And that's the way you keep them in your life actually, right,
think about it. People think they're being nice, they don't
say anything, and then later you just you know, complain
about your friend to another friend. That's not nice, that's
not kind, that's not loving. So when you're feeling that way,
if you say something to the person, you can again
have some growth, have some movement. Or maybe this person
(06:21):
isn't for you like in a friendship right, or maybe
you have to draw different boundaries with your mother where
you don't see her as much as maybe you would.
You know, in a perfect world you have a certain relationship.
Maybe that's not what this can be, at least not
right now. So it's really accepting also where people are
at and not judging them for where they're at because
they have their own stuff and we can be loving
(06:41):
and kind to them too.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yeah, but they're a right time to get into a relationship.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Ah, I you know, I get asked this a lot.
I always say, it's when you will notice right away
if it's quote unquote the right because it's not. You know,
someone's like, oh I just got divorced a month go,
I can't I'm jumping into something, or it's been two
years so it's the right time. It's not. There is
no right time. That's Number one. How you know is
(07:09):
by who you're attracting. If you're going on dates and
you realize that the let's say, for me, like if
I was going I'm married, actually I can't. But if
I was going on dates and I was meeting men
who were maybe ain't you know, all hated the Rex
or something, you'll notice there's like a theme or you're
thinking they seem different at first, and then you get
(07:29):
to know them a little and you're like, oh god,
this is just like my last Oh my god, you know,
or the one before that. That's how you know your
energy or the work you've done internally hasn't shifted enough
to bring kind of a different kind of person into
your life. People. You know that thing we say about relationships, right,
my other half, my better half, you know, a half
plus a half equal as a whole. And the thing
(07:51):
I always say is that's it's a multiplication problem, not
an addition problem. And when you have a half times
a half, if you remember third grade math, that's a quarter.
And how many of us have been in a quarter relationship?
How many of us have been like out of half?
You know, we're not really in our best way, We
don't maybe we don't know yet, we haven't grown enough yet.
It's not about blame, but it's where we were, and
(08:13):
that person did not bring out the best in us.
We did not together create something really great and whole.
And that's how you know most of the time your energy,
like you talked about, you don't feel good. You don't
most And I would say this mostly I want people
to think about how they feel when they're away from
the person. A lot of times, when we're with a person,
(08:33):
we're like, oh, he's so great, and he's so charismatic,
and he's just I feel so special with him, which,
by the way, sounds like trauma bonding, which I can
talk about but I won't even go there right now.
But when and then when they're away, they're insecure, they're jealous,
they're worried. They're anxious there, and it's like, that's not
how you should feel away from your person. If you
have to be in their presence to feel good, that's bad.
(08:56):
And then the opposite obviously is true if you feel
bad with them, but then you go away and go, oh,
but there, I was being too mean. I was being
too harsh. You know, I was expecting too much. I
have to you know, either way, these two feelings should
all want. You should feel good both. And that's again
how you know that's a good time.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
So it would it be fair to say because you
did the multiplication equation instead of the addition equation, would
it be fair to say that either you have a
relationship that is an addition where it is like one
half plus one half equals one whole, or you're going
to be in a relationship where it's one half times
(09:37):
one half equals a quarter.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
To me, it's a one times one is one is
a whole relationship. Like that's it. It's always multiplication. There
are you know you've been in them. I'm sure like
they're exponential, they're they're synergistic. There's so much going on
it should feel like a whole and you should feel
like a whole person in it. This other person doesn't
complete you, not you know, something more together. That's just
(10:03):
like trauma bonding crap that I listen to. You know,
if anyone when I asked someone think of this, if
I said to you, like, what, what's your perfect man?
You know, when you think about the characteristics of a
perfect person to be with, and this again could even
be friends. I want to be really clear. I would
say things like, the person has my back. I always
(10:24):
feel like we're a team. You know that they're going
to think of me, or that they're going to think
of me first. They're they're always there's a lot of
good will, They're thinking of my best interests. Right. I'm
never saying, oh, my perfect person, Well, I just feel
great when I'm around them. There's just something special. There's
just something I can't describe it. That's trauma bonding. That's
(10:45):
not that's not your person, because you should be able
to really say what those things are if you can't
describe it, if it just feels so something. I get
terrified when clients say that to me. As soon as
they start talking that way, I'm like, oh God, here
we go. And by the way. Trauma bonding is not
that you both have the same trauma and you're coming together.
(11:06):
Trauma bonding is just basically, my dysfunctional past and your
dysfunctional past have some kind of weird dovetailing. You know,
they sort of go together in good ways because it
can feel exciting, but also in really unhealthy ways, and
that's sort of how that happens. But yeah, hopefully that
answers that question, sorry for me.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, yeah, no, it does. It does. So you're basically
saying it should always be a multiplication equation when you
are in a relationship or a friendship with somebody else
and you should be a whole person away from them
and then coming together. It's one times one equals one,
so you're still one whole person.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Yeah, it's great, right, No fractions, no less than, no
more than. We just starre this and we're really we
come together as a whole thing.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah. Yeah. Should you feel like you've healed yourself before
you're ready boats to be in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
It's so funny. I did an episode of my own
podcast not long ago about should you get in a
relationship if you're in therapy because someone one of my
listeners had asked, so I was like, oh, I'll do this.
So I literally just answered this, And the short answer
is this that I can meet with someone for so long,
like do therapy with them when they're single. Right, we'll
do the work. It's great, they're growing, they're changing. And
(12:19):
then sometimes I'm the one who has to push and
like you're ready, like go, you know, start dating. Let's see,
because that's where all you're crazy comes out, like you
can be It's kind of like learning to play tennis
and not playing against anybody, do you know what I mean?
Like until you're on the court, like in a game,
you're not gonna know if your skills are good. So
I always say there's no there's no perfect time, and
(12:42):
there's no being one hundred percent ready. Hopefully you're ready
enough that you're not going to lose yourself and go
into some depression if it doesn't work. But I do
want you to try and see what works and what
doesn't and oh yeah this came out, and then come
back to therapy and let's talk about that because that's
where the real need is.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
M If someone's getting out of abusive relationship, how long
do you typically recommend not dating.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
I it's funny. I as much as I want to
say that, I don't say that, like, oh it's no
time I tell. I tell people at least six months.
I do if it's been an abusive relationship, and if
there's a lot of work to do so that you
don't get into another abusive relationship, because that is the
worst worst. When I have somebody who you know is
(13:30):
coming along, and it might be longer, but if it's
it should be at least that long. As you're working,
as you're dating yourself, as you're learning yourself, as you're
healing yourself, it should be at least that long. So
I do when I have clients who and I have,
I say, you know, for six months when I'm going
to talk about dating. And at six months we can
have a new conversation. Let's see where you're at. And
(13:52):
usually the person at that point it's nice to just
put it out of your head so you're not even
worried about it. And at that point they often say
to me, I don't I don't think I'm quite there yet.
I'm like, all right, let's let's wait a little longer.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
If someone feels like the spark is gone in their relationship.
What can you do to reignite it?
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Yeah, oh gosh, I talked about it. I have a
lot of episodes, so this two people always ask. So
I want to say this first. You know, intimacy and
sex are different things, and I think people immediately think
of and I'll say with love, men especially think of
sex right away, but women do too. As how we'll
(14:43):
reignite you know, sex, it's it's sex and without the intimacy,
and intimacy is because it's emotional closeness, without that vulnerability,
without that trust, we it all falls apart on the
other side. So the thing you really want to build
is trust, and that's how you get the spark back.
And trust is made up of three things. People think
(15:04):
I trust them or I don't, and that's not true.
Trust is three things. It's goodwill, which I mentioned before,
is that thinking this person has my back and my
best interests at heart. It's honesty, of course, right what
we say, Integrity that I'm honest, you know I can
believe what you say to me. And competence. So if
you know you say you're gonna beat the restaurant five,
(15:25):
you're there at five. You you know say you're gonna
take the garbage out. You take the garbage out the
when these three things. And the problem is a lot
of people will say to me, well, I know, you know,
when my partner's always really honest with me, like I
don't think they're really cheating or anything. You know, they're
they're very honest and they tell me, but they don't really.
But they also feel like their partner's a little selfish
(15:46):
and doesn't really have their back first, you know, isn't
thinking of them first when they make choices. So I
like this. I call it like the trust triad. I
like it because you can just zero in on where
you have to work because when you just say real trust,
it's such a big like thing. Build trust? What do
I do? So what you do to build intimacy, to
(16:06):
get a spark back is build trust because when you
have that, think of that we're vulnerable, we're sharing at
a deeper level. We want to have sex all the time.
You know, we're feeling so connected right and sex is
really fun because we're willing to try different things. We're
not thinking like how's you know, how's my butt look?
I have to back out of the room, you know,
like we're not doing that because we fully trust this person.
(16:28):
And I think people miss that boat a lot when
they talk to me about, you know, being having a
spark again. And then the other thing I say to
focus on is what I call micro connections, So it's
the little connections you have and putting those in. One
of my favorites easy for people to walk away with
today is always greet your partner at the door every
(16:50):
single time they come home. If you're you know, whoever's
home first, whoever's home, you greet at the door. And
I say greet like greet like a golden retriever, like
how your golden would be if you walked in the house.
So it's that beautiful thing where you stop with you know,
if it's kids or homework or cooking or working on
your laptop or whatever you're doing. Stop. I mean obviously
(17:11):
for in the middle of the meeting. If you work
at home, all right, I'll give you a minute, but
leave what you're doing. It takes two minutes. Even in
a meeting. You could say, oh my gosh, I need
a bio break. I'll be right back. Go to the
door when they come in. Just be there like full greeting, Hey,
it's really oh my god, I missed you. I'm so
happy you're home. Make out a little if you want,
hug whatever, just really connect. It takes of time. This
(17:33):
with my man, and it takes a it's about thirty seconds,
and it is so huge to reconnect like that. And
if you don't have thirty seconds, like what are we
even talking about? I don't even know how to help you,
you know, And so to just have a minute like that,
just that thirty seconds of true connection like hey, good,
you know, eyes, maybe full body, a hug, something, and
(17:56):
then go back to what you're doing. But the you know,
someone comes home and you're like, how is your day fine?
You know, like you're yelling to each other. There's nothing
there and you haven't seen each other. Like connect micro connections,
little connections. Really think of those and that will help
bring the spark back too.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, if we look at this question building trust through
the lens of friendship, say that there was a betrayal
that happened, and you know you had to take some
time apart, but now you're coming together and wanting to
build a friendship again. How does one rebuild a friendship
using that triad meth.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
That same thing very much. If there's been a betrayal
in a friendship, right, you really have to think of that.
And so I do love this when you break it
down and think. Okay, first of all, before you even
go there, I would ask you why you want to
be friends with this person again? You know they have
betrayed you. It doesn't mean that wants a cheater, always
a cheater, thing or whatever people say is bs. You
(18:55):
know I was, I'm a recovering heroin addict. I mean
like people change. You know, I'm very different than what
I was then, and we all change and that's the
beauty of people. So getting in your head that someone's
always going to be that way. But and I will
also say but and also trust your instincts. What you know,
why are you afraid of being alone without this best friend?
(19:17):
Are you afraid of who you are without this person?
Are you like, is there fear driving your want to reconnect?
Fear of them going off and having a great life?
This is true and romance too. You know, fear never
made a relationship better. Your motivation has to be from
a love based emotion, compassion, kindness, connection, joy, ease, growth,
(19:38):
You know right. So that's the first thing I would
say is figure that out, because that's a big question.
I see a lot. I have so many clients who
want to be friends again with someone, and I ask like, why,
what do you may they're trying to recapture a time
in their life. It's all fear based. But if it's
love based, if it's on one of those other things,
then I would say, then break it down. So if
(20:00):
there's a betrayal, then obviously the big thing is integrity.
You don't think the person's honest. They lie to you
in some way. Clearly they don't put your needs first
and have your back right. And but the third thing
I would look at is that competency. Are they competent
to be what you need? And a best friend? Like?
What do you need in a best friend? What does
that mean to you? Do you know what I'm saying?
(20:22):
My thing is that I have a caller, my wife,
you know, my best friend. Everyone should have a wife
and a husband. I say, that's the goal. My little wifey.
You know, whenever there's never judgment, that's my thing. I
mean never. And I've done some horrible things, you know,
We've been friends like thirty years, like I've definitely been
an asshole and done stupid things and whatever, not routinely,
(20:46):
but and she is never think good. She's always compassionate first,
you know, like are you okay? Like that's her first response,
Well you okay? Are you all right? That's her first
response every single time for thirty years. That's what I need.
Then I can be vulnerable, then I can share the thing,
(21:06):
then we can go there. So you have to decide,
you know, you got to really think, like what is
this thing I'm looking for? What do I need? I
notice that people focus on what they want when they
don't get what they need. So it's like, well, you
don't call me first. You know, I need a friend
who calls me first. No you don't. What is that?
What kind of crap is that? What kind of keeping
score bs? Is that? That is not why you're I
(21:28):
could care less if I don't text back Ronda, my bestie.
She just assumes I was busy. She assumes something else happened.
She doesn't take it personally. She knows I love her
and we'll catch up later. Like there's no none of
that for me. That's what I need. So you have
to think like if you're focused on your friend not
being you know, they don't make plans. Ever, I always
(21:49):
have to make the plans. That's the stuff I hear
or I always have to text them first. What is
it that you really need that you're not getting that.
That's a representation of what is that representing to you?
And that's how you use the triad for that. You know,
I want to know that they it seems like when
they go off in their life, they don't think about
(22:09):
me at all. So there's again that goodwill piece. So
that's what you have to build and you have to
talk about that, how it shows up for you what
you're looking for, and you have to very honest conversations
both ways. And by the way, just the betrayer was
also obviously missing something in the relationship that they would
ever do that. So you know, it's a two way street.
(22:34):
It's always a two way street. It's not you know,
if you sit and just be the victim and the betrayal,
then where are you right? You can't you can't continue
the relationship with a friendship or a romance as a victim.
It's not going to work.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Great answer, can you talk about compatibility and relationships and
compatibility in friendships. What are the main markers that someone
is compatible with you and and you grow and become
more compatible.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Yeah, yes, and yes and yes. And I love that
you said compatible and not people. I think focus too
much with friends and with lovers with that we like
to do the same things. That has nothing to do
with compatibility. And that, by the way, is the problem
with dating appspot, because you know, you're like, oh, I ski,
(23:23):
I want someone who skis, and I do this, and
I want someone who does this, and that loses a lot, right,
all the stuff we're talking about. So compatibility to me
is that. And I will tell you my man we
are he's from upstate New York and I'm from the city.
Like we have very different like country mouse, city mouse
things and look like he loves being outdoors and exercising
(23:46):
and I just want to wear stilettos and I no
oreo like I you know, like we really on the
outside have nothing in common kind of, but our values
are the same, our humor is the same. Like there's
this way that we have this incredible compatibility. So I would, again,
what do you need versus what do you want? I
need someone who listens. I need someone who has my back.
(24:07):
I need someone who thinks of me, maybe even before
he thinks of himself. Not all the time, but a
good you know. Sometimes I need someone who's going to
disagree with me, but be non judgmental and kind in
the disagreement. You know what I mean? These are what
I need. That's compatibility. Now, when I met Jerrie, he
(24:28):
wasn't as emotionally. His emotional IQ wasn't as high as
it is now, as you can imagine, right, you know, psychologists,
it's we're the worst, right, Like, who wants to be
with us? I don't know. I don't know. I'm always thinking,
thank you for staying with me, you know. But I've
taught him things over time. He's so funny. He always
reads my books and my blog. You know. He's like, oh,
(24:48):
I'm learning, you know, and he'll he'll bring out a
tool at home, Like that's what I want, someone who
wants to learn and grow. And that's compatibility. Do you
have the same ideas about where you want to be
and more important, how you want to feel? When I
tell couples to make goals every year and friends too,
I do it with my friend. When you make goals
(25:08):
every year, don't make make feelings goals. I want to
feel safe, I want to feel I want to feel enthusiastic.
I want like what a great you know, January is
not too far away. Like, make a goal for how
you want to feel as a couple, Make a goal
for how you want your friendship to feel, and stay
on that track. That and then your other kind of goal.
(25:30):
You know, I want to be happy and enthusiastic at work.
You know, guess what when I something comes at me,
like getting asked to be on your podcast, I'm like,
well that make me happy? Is that it makes me enthusiastic? Yes,
so let me do it. That's how you can actually
decide what the doing part is by when you have
how you want to feel first. When you do that,
your whole life changes.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Hmmm. I love that. I love that so much. And
you're saying that you teach your husband Gary so much
about human psychology, obviously because you're a psychologist. Do you
learn things from him? What does you in that relationship?
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Oh my gosh, so much patience. I I like to
skip steps and like jump things. And you know, he
was he's ex Navy and he's just like a rule
guy and does the thing. You know, he's I'm I'm
not risk averse. I'll try And there's a but again,
(26:27):
there's a compatibility and non judgment around it. And here's
the biggie to take away. What you want is a preference.
It's not right or wrong. Like I'll have couples say
to me, well, I'm like Gary and I. He would say,
maybe you used to I'm a saver. He's a saver
and I'm a spender. Right And no, no, no, everybody spends
in a relationship. Okay, everybody spends money in a relationship.
(26:50):
It's just that savers have decided what it's okay to
spend on. So it's such bs to say someone's a
savor and someone's a spender. It's a preference. It is
a prefer and if you honor it as a preference,
you can really come together. It is not right to
want more sex or wrong to want less sex. It
is not right to want to go out more and
(27:11):
wrong to want to stay in more. These are preferences.
And when you can understand that and get rid of
the judgment, it completely transforms a relationship and then you
really work on If you're a team. If we're a team,
if that's the value I really hold, then we will
as a team decide how to address this and what
to do next, as opposed to you're over there and
(27:32):
I'm over here, and we're polarized, and I'm trying to
get you to come on my side. If you're on
opposite sides of a friendship, of a love relationship, of
any relationship, you're in trouble. This is you're in a
lot of trouble. So you have to get rid of
the sides thing, and you have to understand that everything's
a preference and there's no right or wrong, and that's
(27:53):
a hard one to go. So yeah, so Gary would
not agree that he won't spend I'm with someone who
won't spend fifty dollars on a pair of sneakers and
I'm wearing Stelle McCartney shoes. You know, like we are
very I'm like bougie as hell. He not at all,
Like sometimes yeah, like how much was that bag? Oh
(28:14):
my gosh. But again we're open about it. We support
each other and do you know what I mean? When
you find your partner's happiness, you allow things that because
they are not because you have to be right, and
that's how you succeed, and that's how you grow.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
What are some of the biggest reasons relationships ultimately fail.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
The biggie is that the real reason they fail is
because there's competition. I say this all the time. Couples
always come to me and say and again, friends too
will say, oh, we don't communicate. Right, you know what's
the biggest problem in your relationship? Don't communicate. That's not
the problem. That is the symptom of the actual cancer.
The cancer is that you compete. You compete for you know, Oh,
(29:10):
you went out with your friends on Friday, so I
get to go out on Saturday. You spent money on this,
so I get to spumy on this. And when you
have kids it gets worse. It's like, well, you took
Jack to piano on Friday, so I'm gonna take Sophie
to baseball on Tuesday. We there's so much of this
tip for tat keeping score. And when you keep score again,
(29:31):
it's like a game. You know, it's not your turn
to put away the dishes. That's my favorite. It's not
your turn to put away the dishes. If you can
put if I can put away the dishes before I leave.
It's one less thing for him to do later. I'm
happy to do it because right there you have to
get out of that competitive keeping score, watching what they
do comparing it to what you do. That is the
(29:53):
number one reason in my forty years of experience in
multiple even different countries, is the real reason things fail
for friendships too. It's competing. Ohh yeah, you've got to
be happy. You know, you get a promotion or something
really great comes your way. Oh my gosh, I'm so
happy for you, as opposed to oh, so you're gonna
be gone all the time now because now you're whatever.
(30:16):
You know, maybe friends from my childhood be like, oh
you have you have a PhD. Now you think you're
better than us. It's like, I, no, I don't at all.
What are we like? Aren't you thrilled that someone like
you know, like that this was something I accomplished or
wrote books or whatever. You know. This is Whenever you
get any of that edge, that's a big problem, and
(30:38):
that's what takes people down because they don't have your
best interest at heart because you can't trust them. That's
what ends up breaking down the trust.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So what happens when, say a friendship, you start noticing whoa,
it seems like there's some sort of competition here. It
seems like maybe this person, like I'm feeling like I
can't share full because they seem to react a certain
way when I am saying I'm doing some of these things.
Where do you go from there?
Speaker 3 (31:07):
So here's my favorite. So I always one of the
little things I say is, don't sack a relationship. Sac
don't offer suggestions, give advice, or criticize. And so when
we tell people what they are, you know, you seem
really competitive. You know you're acting really funny. When I
share this stuff. Whoever has said, oh you're right, I'm
so sorry, right, Like no one responds with like, oh yeah,
(31:31):
my bulb went off, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Right, You're gonna get defensive when you hear that.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Actly, So don't sack, don't offer suggestions, give advice, or criticize. Instead,
you want to ask what I call collaborative questions. So
if someone's acting that way, right, if you're noticing that
they're sort of doing this thing, what people get into
is like I have to share how I feel. It's like, okay,
maybe eventually could you just ask a question. Maybe you're wrong,
(31:58):
you know, feelings aren't facts. We don't know anything yet,
so i'd much rather you asked a question like, hey,
when I said I got you know, maybe you told
a friend like when I said I was going to
do this podcast it, I don't know, how did you
feel when I said that? Now here's what happens ninety
timescent on the time, so get ready. People will tell
you what they were thinking, not what they're feeling. Oh well,
(32:22):
I was just thinking, that's great. You know, you're doing
your thing, and I'm glad you're doing your thing. Okay,
but how are you feeling? Like? Were you were you worried?
Were you concerned? Were you you know, you're happy for me?
Like what we were you feeling this? I'm telling you.
Sometimes they'll keep going to thoughts. People have such a
hard time with a feeling thing, and you just have
(32:42):
to stick with it with love, with you know, loving intention.
And what happens sometimes is that people are just concerned.
Maybe someone and I'm just making this up about your life,
but maybe a friend thought this was too soon to
do it, or maybe they thought, oh, she's going to
get criticized about it. And I, and I love her
and I don't want her to get criticized, so there's
sort of so it seems like they're acting funky, like
(33:03):
they're not happy for you, but they're worried about you actually,
or maybe it was a parent or someone who knows.
So unless you ask, you don't know. And a lot
of times people don't even know why they're acting funny
or don't even know that they are. They're you know,
the subconscious is ruling the day, right, so they don't
get it. Here, the best piece of research you'll ever
(33:23):
have is this. It's from Timothy Wilson. It's that our
conscious brains process information at a rate of forty bits
per second. So consciously you and I are talking, you're
processing at a rate of forty bits per second, but
our subconscious are unconscious brains process at a rate of
eleven million bits per second. Eleven million. So people don't
(33:46):
hear what you say, they hear what you mean. So
when that alignment isn't there, and you know, we've all
talked to someone at work who said all the right
things and we thought they were full of crap, right,
Like everyone's had this, you're and you can't pinpoint it.
It's your subconscious that pinpoint. There was something out of alignment.
What they were saying wasn't matching something else, and you
picked up on it. And you can call that energy
(34:07):
vibration whatever you want to call it, but it's it's science.
I mean, it's science. So we're picking up on subtle
cues that we don't even know we are. So your
friend might not know that you're picking up on that
eleven million. So you're getting something. And a lot of
times people will deny it. I'm telling you right now.
They'll say, like, no, I'm really happy for you. I
don't know what you're talking about. That's why you don't
(34:28):
label it, because then they just really go there. And
instead you'll say, okay, I don't know it, just you know,
is there anything? Then I would ask another question, is
there anything you think I should be worried about doing this?
You know, you might ask a friend, is there anything
you think I'm missing about doing this podcast? Is there
any like? Tell me, I want to know the truth.
Is there anything you're worried about or thinking about with
(34:48):
me doing this? And that's what you'll get answers. People
love to tell you what they're worried about. And that's
where they'll get more real and maybe it's that they
were worried about you. Maybe they'll say, well, I'm wor
worried that you're so busy already. I don't know, it
just seems like you're always so busy. And then you
might say, do you are you worried? I want to
have time for you, like for our friendship. Is that
(35:11):
something we should think about? Do you see how this
went from like they're not happy for me, I'm pissed
to maybe we have a conversation here we haven't had,
and maybe they'll say to you, yeah, you've been really busy.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Our friendship hasn't felt so strong lately, you know, like
you have a real conversation because you're not defensive and
you're answering that eleven million and then they come to
where you are. So that is the way. Don't sack
ask questions and don't try to ask a question that's
a suggestion, like have you thought of doing X? You
(35:44):
know that's still a suggestion. But can you tell me
more about that? Is my favorite collaborative question. Can you
tell me more about whatever you know? Like how you're feeling,
or what you thought about that, or what I said
earlier that I said, could you tell me more? Could
you tell me more? Great? But even something like that,
My favorite if you know, if you have Missmax mismatched
(36:05):
sex drives, let's say that comes up a lot in relationships,
is to say, instead of saying, you know, I want
more sex or I want less sex, or I don't
like how you did that, I don't like how you
went down on me or something, you know, instead of
saying that, because again people don't react nicely. My favorite
question is to ask someone else what would you like
to see more of in our sex life? It is
(36:28):
the best question. You will get so much good information
and they might start to say, well I don't like
when they're like no, no, no, not what you don't like? What?
What do you want to see more of? And sometimes
that first answers, well I want to have sex more.
I'm like, yeah, okay, but what do you want to
see more of in it? And that conversation is amazing.
No one's defensive, no one's upset, no one's felt criticized
(36:51):
or judged, and it's great. It's growth. You know, we're
doing it together. It's like a team. And you can
even ask the other person and did you want to
ask me what I'd like to see more of? If
you don't, it's cool, but you could yea. And usually
because a conversation has been open and friendly, they'll say, well, okay, yeah,
what do you want to see more of? And you
(37:12):
can have this bigger conversation. But you can ask that
in a friendship, what would you like to see more
of in our connection? What would you like to see
more of? In how we spend our time? What would
you like to see see the more of? You're talking
about what you do want, not what you don't want,
and it's very obvious what you don't want when you
hear about what people do want. So instead of getting
there and feeling defensive and angry and frustrated and resentful
(37:36):
all lovely feelings, we get to feel like we're going
towards something because then you can give such right like
so if I, you know, came home from work and
grewd you at the door, would that feel good? You know, like, yeah,
let's do that. Let's try that. You know, you start
to write, get on it, and there's an enthusiasm and
of growth together. So that's my favorite little tool.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah. I was just going to say, after you were
talking about the end see and asking what you would
want more of in an intimate way with a partner,
you can probably apply that to friendship too, and you
use that as a clarity question so that you can
start building that friendship in the direction that you have.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
Yeah, yep, it's great and you'll feel good doing it.
You're not afraid to have that conversation. Most people are
afraid to have a conversation and avoid it because they're
worried about conflict, and most people are very conflict avoidant.
So there's no conflict here. Hey, what would you like
to see more of in our friendship? What would you
like to see so you'll actually have the conversation. It's
so much better, so much better. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Yeah, and I'm sure the other person will feel hurt too, like.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
Oh, I really value that.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yeah, Okay. How can you get over the fear of
rejection in a relationship but also in a friendship because
making friends as an adult is very more difficult than
it was in our childhood years.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
It really is. You know, there's the number one fear
all humans have from a biological perspective is being rejected
or abandoned, end of, end of there's nothing else that's it,
that's at the very very bottom. And we're built that way,
DNA up right, because if you got rejected out of
the Klan, you were going to die. Right. So it's
(39:21):
been a human homo sapien imperative to be accepted and
there is to understand it is number one. So I'm
worried about being you know, I'm worried. I'm scared about
this is number one because then you start to again
align those forty and eleven million bits, you start to
get those like in line. There is no one easy
(39:45):
way to get over your fear of rejection or abandonment. However,
it's really what we've seen from the research that works
is mindfulness. Mindfulness is the key is if you were
in your moments, because in the moment, it's like here
I am, I'm at a mixer and I'm gonna say
(40:05):
hi to see you know, I'm gonna walk up and
I'm gonna remember you know, you're being mindful. You're in
your moment. You're in the here and now non judgmentally.
Not I'm a loose I want to say this really
quick before I go to self awareness and mindfulness are
two different things. Self awareness is judgmental. It's by definition,
I'm judging things about myself. I'm saying, like, for me,
(40:27):
I'm a little controlling, I'm very controlling. That is like,
so I'm very self aware, I'm controlling. The problem is
I'm not always mindful about my controlling behavior. That makes sense,
like I'll be in a moment being controlling and then
I'm like, oh god, I'm doing it. That's the difference.
But when i'm doing it, when I catch myself or
if my kids do, or my heavy does or someone
(40:48):
catches it, the important thing is not to be judging
myself what's wrong with me? Why did I do that?
And instead to be like, okay, let's get let's take
a breath, let's get in the moment. I'm gonna stop
being stop being controlling right now. And that's what you
can do, and you can ship flip the script right there.
So mindfulness helps you be in those moments of knowing.
(41:11):
The problem is that we act on that autopilot. And
so think of that eleven million bits. If I'm walking
up to someone and I haven't done mindfulness and I
haven't checked in with myself. What's my energy? Like if
I'm going on a first date with someone and I'm
sitting at the table and I'm waiting, and my energy
is like, oh, what if they don't like me? What
if they don't guess what they're picking up on? I
(41:32):
probably shouldn't like them. I probably I call it a wobble.
There's a wobble. They're getting the inconsistency because you're there,
like looking all good and you got your nails done,
You're all happening. You're sitting there and you're looking so cute,
but inside you're worried or like, what's wrong with this guy?
There's always something wrong every guys something wrong. He's picking
(41:53):
up on that. It doesn't matter that your words are fabulous,
it doesn't matter that you're saying all the right things.
And then he's like, what's wrong with this chick? Like
this girl? Like what's up with this woman? Because she's
saying things but I get a different feeling and so
that feels like a red flag? Do you know? You
know what I'm saying? And then we're picking up on
each other's red flags where there really aren't any. There's
(42:14):
just some insecurity totally.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Yeah. Yeah, it sounds very, very very a very anxious
attachment energy.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
Yep, there you go, an avoidant attachment energy. You'll do
the same thing. Yeah, you'll sit there like it doesn't
work out, who cares? You know, you can be too
avoidant with it too, and then either way it doesn't
feel good. Like, oh, this person is saying they're looking
for a commitment, but there's something I'm picking up that
they're not mm And a lot of people have this
(42:46):
with someone else. So like this guy says he wants somebody,
but he's not, Like I don't know, I felt like
he wasn't.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Yeah, how do you balance being present in the moment
and practicing that mindfulness and just like being fully there
in dating or in friendship. And sometimes this happens to
me where I'm like, Okay, now I know how to
fully be present in my body and and like be
(43:14):
in the moment and like we have magnificent energy and connection.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
But then I kind of get too lost in the
moment and I'm not thinking too far ahead, and then
I'm you know, but then I'm told like, but you
don't want to think too far ahead because then that
you get like anxiety or you know, you're not living
in the moment, So how.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Do you balance that? That's still something that I haven't
mastered yet.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
Yeah, I think you're I love that you would get into.
We call that a flow state, when you get kind
of you know, when you're sort of lost in something
I love. If you're in a flow state, I don't
know what you have to worry about or think about.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
So let me tell you it's it's with dating men
who are are have narcissistic characteristic traits, and or men
who are not healthy or healed. And so I'm now
I've gotten much better with identifying the red flags and
(44:15):
setting clear boundaries and removing myself from the situation before
things get too out of hand and you get too attached.
So I think maybe that might be the answer. But
as I'm dating now, I'm like, I think I'm like
dating to meet somebody that I can feel like I
can be fully present in the moment. And I guess
(44:35):
that's part of the trust building and like getting to
know someone before falling in love and all of those things.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
I love it. Well, I'd say a few things for that.
One is, if you're present in the moment, you know
how you're feeling. So for I have a client who's
dating right now, and the guy dropped her off. They
met somewhere right, but it was she walked and in
this little town and he met her and he's driving
(45:06):
and he said, oh, I insist on driving you home,
and she led him and then he wanted to come
in and she let and I said to her, he
shouldn't even act like that, and she's and she said,
you know what, I felt funny, But I was trying
to be nice. You know. I didn't want to seem
like uptight. I didn't want to seem a certain way.
(45:28):
I was like, ah, so you know that's the thing.
I think we do feel something in the moment. I
think you're probably your instincts are way better than you
think they are, and so you're questioning because you've grown.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
And right now that you say that, it's actually very true,
because I was drinking a lot in these types of relationships.
So yes, now that I've cut alcohol out of the equation,
it's like I can listen to that voice a lot
clearer now.
Speaker 3 (45:58):
Yeah, well, and think of out why you were drinking.
So your good instincts were always there but want in
a moment or being caught up in something. We let
that go for a while and we write. And so
we use alcohol or pod or people use all kinds
of things too. It's a buffer, that's what alcohol does.
(46:22):
It's a buffer between you and the other person, between
true intimacy. So it allows you to stay in something
while muting right, all all the red flags or all
the you know, all the things you know. And so yeah,
I always encourage people like on those first dates, never
don't ever drink anything like just or one glass over
the course of the evening. But if you and and
(46:44):
notice how much they drink on a first right, So
when I go out, of course, what I'm saying to
people is, oh, I don't drink, you know. And if
anyone had a strong reaction to that, even that, I
can tell, I could tell right away, right, like why
are you having such a strong who cares? It's like
I said, I don't even I don't eat broccoli, Like
would you be upset if I said I don't eat
broccoli like, no, I'm allergic to broccoli. I don't think
(47:05):
you'd care. I don't think you'd be trying to shove
broccoli down my throat at dinner. So if they're like pushing,
well you can't have one drink really again, boundaries right away.
But women especially want to be nice. We don't want
to appear frigid or angry or anal or type A
or whatever. Ah, I'm so tired of it. So I know,
(47:26):
you know, I can tell I've known you a whole
half hour, and I can tell that you already know,
and you don't trust it. And every I'm telling you
I talk to women over and over and then too,
they already know, but they don't trust what they know.
They think somehow or they want what it is so bad?
But he's so good looking, or he has such a
good job, or he you know. And by the way,
(47:49):
on the list of my dream man, nowhere on there
to say how much money he should make, or how
tall he had to be, or anything else, because what
we really need that has nothing to do with Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
Yeah, If you are attracted to somebody who does drink,
is that.
Speaker 3 (48:11):
A bad thing? How do you.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Gauge like is this is this a red flag that
I need to look at? Or is this okay? Because
this guy's behavior doesn't change when he drinks. You know
after dating a few alcoholics, that's definitely like a big
thing on my radar.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Yeah, as it should be. Yeah, and I'm I'm married
to a normy. We call them like people who can
just tell I think the big thing is again, listen
to your instincts. It is, it's like and it's is
it every time you go out? Is you know? Is
it at home? Also? Is it? Is it ubiquitous? Like?
(48:55):
Is it something that's because for me? And it could
be pat it could be a bunch of things. I
don't want that in friendship and I don't want that
in in love. I think it should be you know,
do you always have to have sex? Do they always
have to drink to have sex? Do they like where?
Is it right? It's not the amount we know that
that's not one of the criteria we use for a problem.
(49:17):
And again, you don't even have to diagnose them as anything.
It's more for yourself, like when I'm with this person,
do I feel like I'm really with them? You know?
And a lot of people drink and it's fine, you
know most Gary's fine with his drinking, you know, but
Gary will say things like while I was in a
bad mood, so I didn't want to drink, you know,
(49:37):
like he. To him, it's like a fun social thing.
He would never like drink at home alone like he
it's and I wouldn't be with someone who did. It
wouldn't be for me what I'm looking for. And it's
okay if it's for you, But think about it. I
think we take certain things like as as is, and
of course you kind of thing because everybody drinks, and
we don't really think about when I've noticed when I've
(50:00):
been out with certain friends or something, it's like they
don't want to drink, like, oh, if you're not drinking,
I'm not going to drink like they don't. They don't care.
It doesn't again, we haven't broccoli or not like they don't.
It doesn't have any heat when And I think that's
the thing you have to think about. Do you notice
an energy shift when you're talking about it when you
don't when you do, like you know, what activities you do.
(50:23):
I think those are the things you have to really
key into. And so yeah, that for sure. Especially, I
can't tell you how many people I've worked with who
date alcoholics or addicts over and over, like you know,
and they'll say they weren't using when I met them.
They wasn't like this when I met them. And there's
usually probably in your background, some drug or alcohol person
(50:47):
in the background, because that's like a gimme whenever I
have someone who has that currently, I know. It's the
first thing I asked, Michael, who is alcoholic in your house?
Like or you know that you knew, or in the
family there's something or or a dysfunctional family dynamic. Get
me mix it absolutely absolutely, It's always there every time,
so you know, it's like trace it down. So this
(51:09):
is what looks appealing. And I always say again, it's
about the intimacy and trust. You know that it's always whated.
So you got to have the trust and to have
the intimacy. Those are the things that go together. And
you can't have that if there's drinking all the time,
you just you can't doesn't exist. I know some people think, oh,
that's how I get intimate because I drink and then
(51:30):
I can open up and I can It's like you
need to drink to open up. That's not real intimacy.
Drinking doesn't bring out some other true whatever. It's just uncovers.
It's a focuser. It just uncovers something, that's all. But
if you can't do it sober, then I get concerned.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Yeah, great advice. Thank you so much for joining me, Abby.
It really a pleasure. Can people find you on Instagram
or social media?
Speaker 3 (51:58):
Yeah, they're all over. I'm sure you'll post it everywhere.
But really, my website, abbymedcalf dot com and it's with
a d MEDCLF, is where the easiest way to get
all my socials and the podcast and all my tips.
And I do have a free mindfulness starter kit if
anybody wants that, that is on the website. It is
really free. It's nothing weird. So if people want something
(52:21):
like that a resource, I have a lot of free
resources on the website. It's meant to be free.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
And once your podcast name again.
Speaker 3 (52:27):
It's relationships made easy. We were yeah, like eighty eighth
last week in the United States. Yeah, we're in relationships. Yeah,
we're We're going into our seventh season in August, so
it's really exciting. If anyone liked me here, they'll love
the podcast.
Speaker 2 (52:44):
Yes, yes, absolutely awesome. Thank you so much for thanking you.
Thank you so much for listening to Rachel Goes Growth
follow us on Instagram and TikTok for exclusive video content
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