August 27, 2024 • 47 mins
It’s no secret Rachel has been on quite the journey over the last couple of years, and today, she’s diving into it all head first.
Rachel is joined by licensed therapist Dr. Jill Vermeire to discuss The Meadows program and everything she went through there, including how it has shaped her into the person she is today.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Rachel gos Rogue.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome back to another episode of Rachel Goes Rogue with
your host, Rachel Savannah Levis. This podcast has allowed me
to explore so many facets of my past, and I
have had some incredible guests join me on topics that
will better your future. But today I kind of want
to bridge those two together. I have an incredible guest
(00:35):
joining me who worked at The Meadows, and I want
to dive into what that program was like for me
and how it has shaped me into the person I
am today. I'm joined by doctor Jill Vermire, who is
a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in sex addiction,
love addiction, partner betrayal, trauma, and sex therapy. Doctor Jill
(01:00):
helps patients heal from the shame, pain, or guilt of addiction, trauma,
or betrayal. She co authored an award winning book on
treating female sex and love addiction and starred on v
H one's Sex Rehab with Doctor Drew. So I got
Jill's contact info. At the Meadows, sometimes in lectures, one
(01:26):
of the senior fellows will visit and give like a
special lecture, and this was the case that morning, a
senior fellow at Meadows is giving a lecture on addiction,
and I asked him if it was possible to be
in recovery and be on a reality TV show, because
that was the main dilemma that I was trying to
(01:48):
solve for myself, whether or not I was going to
go back to this show, and I needed.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
To know, like, is it even possible?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
And he said, yes, it is, and then I cried
and he gave me Jill's contact. I contacted her after
I got out of The Meadows, but we really didn't
connect until more recently, and I would just love to
have her on the podcast because I haven't been able
(02:19):
to fully encapsulate what the experience was like at The Meadows.
And I've interviewed a few other therapists and people who
have worked at recovery centers before, but The Meadows is
like a very specific recovery program and it's world renowned
(02:42):
and I kind of want to just like dive deeper
into what the day to day actually was like. And
I think Jill is the person for the job since
she actually worked at the Meadows. She actually help found
the women's house that treats sex and love addiction and
(03:05):
so I think that's very cool and uh, and I
think she's a big deal, so I'm happy to have
her on.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Hi Jill, Hey Rachel, are you doing outpatient now?
Speaker 1 (03:18):
No, I'm just in private practice now. I've worked at
the Meadows a few times. Actually, I worked there. PM
Melody was my supervisor back in like oh five oh six.
That was my journey into love addiction was Yeah, I
ran away from my feelings guys in California as in
LA for a long time and uh kind of brought
to my knees with the whole love addiction thing that
(03:39):
I didn't know at the time. Ran home to Arizona,
worked at the Meadows. Pia taught me about love addiction
and the first time I saw that lecture, I was like,
holy shit me like a like a whole story, like
they've been following me. So then I worked and they
didn't have IOP back then. Then I worked at IOP
(04:01):
after I had a baby and we had moved back
here to Arizona, and that's when they hired me to
build Willow House.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
And wait before we get into Willow House, because I
my listeners probably don't know who Pia P. Melody is
recording already yeah, but I love your answer. I love
what you're you're sharing already because it's just so natural
and like a conversation. But I think it's like such
(04:31):
a big deal that you were trained under p Melody herself,
Like she was the one that founded the Meadows and
it's been a very successful recovery center treating codependency, addiction,
and love addiction, which I think is like a newer
(04:51):
It was probably like a groundbreaking concept at the time
when you were experiencing that.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, And at the time, I may would go around,
you know, when I worked there, it was like they're
a love actor, a love avoid and your love act.
I'm like, well, is everybody a love actor? Love avoid it?
And of course since then, because that was, you know,
a couple of minutes ago, a lot has come out about,
you know, like attachment theory. Really she was talking about
(05:19):
attachment styles and putting some user friendly names to it.
I've never been the biggest fan of the labels because
I think they're actually misleading. Because love addiction it's kind
of like sex diction. Look, who doesn't like sex? You know,
who doesn't want to be in love? But the concept
of addiction when you look at it from that lens.
(05:40):
Is when it's addictive, it's a repetitive pattern, there are
negative consequences, the consequences continue, they get worse, there's failed
attempts to stop the pattern or to deal with it,
and becomes a vicious cycle. And that's really when you
can put it into that addiction category. And it is
(06:04):
it is as life threatening in my opinion as a
chemical addiction, because this is where we see people in
the end part of the cycle. They start cut, you know,
self harming, They relapse on drugs, alcohol eating disorders, people
become suicidal that you know, they want to hurt themselves.
They want to hurt I mean in extreme cases, they
(06:26):
want to hurt the person that's infected the pain on them.
So it can be extremely severe and extremely serious. And
it's one of the reasons why I'm really passionate about that.
And it is connected to and it can be the
precursor to other addictions and a lot of other issues
(06:47):
in life that can be really detrimental.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
So yeah, definitely. And then with the Willow House, what
was your involvement with creating Willow House and can you
like give us a little rundown of what that is okay.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So, like I said, PA was my supervisor way back
when she helped launch me into my own recovery from
love addiction. And at the time, I was already a
certified sex addiction therapist, and at the time I was
only used to treating male sex addicts. So Pia helped
(07:23):
me also understand female sex addiction. Sex and love addiction,
they're different and the same, they overlap. So it became
a specialty of mine was female sex and love addiction.
I ended up being invited to write a training comprehensive
training manual on treating female sex and love addiction with
some other leaders in our field, and it just kind
of became what I was known for as like my
(07:45):
super subspecialty. So when I contacted Jim at Iop Jim Corrington,
I was like, Hey, we're moving back, and I had
already had a previous relationship with him from working there.
He was he was like, oh my god, we're building this.
We're going to be building this women's program similar to
(08:08):
gentle Path, which is the men's version of the sex
addiction treatment program there. And so they brought me on
to build this program just because it was my wheelhouse.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Okay, Yeah, I'd love to get into the difference between
the structure of Willow House compared to your standard campus
at the Meadows, because I knew I had a problem,
and it took me quite some time to like admit
that it was love addiction. And I think the Willow
(08:41):
House would have been great for me, but I wasn't
in the mindset to accept that, like that's the place
that I should go. One of the biggest differences was
the phone calls. So you're not allowed to make out
going phone calls to your significant other or whoever it
may be. Is that correct, or like everyone has to
(09:03):
listen in on the phone calls that go out.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
So it might have changed since I built it, because
this was we launched in twenty seventeen. The idea behind
the phone calls, especially at a place like Willowhouse, because
a Willowhouse, you're treating relational I mean, there's a million
different terms relational disorders, attachment disorders, love addictions, that whatever,
majorial trauma. So one of the things about a process addiction,
(09:32):
process disorder, relational all the things, is that you are
essentially there because you have problematic relationships with yourself and
other people. They're your drugs. So it's like you know,
you like they check for contraband when you check into
any rehab to see if you're bringing in drugs or
alcohol or paraphernala or anything. When you're being treated for
(09:55):
something like love addiction or sex addiction, you're not gonna,
you know, stab your qualifier. Qualifier is the person who's
affected you to the point where this is now what
you realize you're suffering from. So you're not gonna stash
your person. But the phone calls can be a way
to you know, quote unquote get high. So they really
want to help you detox from your drug of choice,
(10:19):
which could be the person if you are addicted to
or you have a toxic relationship with. So I mean
that's essentially that's part of the theory behind it is
you really it's the emotional detox. And honestly, I don't
know if you experienced this or not, but the emotional
detox is extremely uncomfortable and actually lasts longer than a
(10:43):
drug detox because there's the emotional piece to it. There's
not detox drugs you can really take to toxic relationship
or betrayal, trauma or any of those things.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
I mean for me, I kind of weaned off of
my qualifier, and by the end of my recovery stay,
I knew that he was not a healthy person for
me to be in communication with, and part of my
treatment plan was I would know I would be in
crisis if I contacted him, and so it was just
(11:20):
very clear that I had to cut him out. But
I did an interview with Buthany Frankel, and I was
still kind of protecting him and not really you know,
being fully transparent the way that I am now on
this podcast, And so I can see how like, yeah,
the emotional effects that it has on somebody last like.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
A substantial amount of time.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Even hearing their voice, because again relating it to a
drug addiction, if you detox from a drug, but then
you have a little, tiny, little taste of it, it
reactivates that part of your brain that's addicted. It's the
same thing with a person. Just hearing their voice can
(12:11):
reactivate and kind of say you. Not always, it's not
an exact science, it's not black and white. It's very
much on a spectrum, but just hearing a voice can
set you back. One of the things I have my
clients do is we do have to go through their stash.
So when you're dealing with addiction to a person, love addiction,
(12:32):
whatever we're calling it, a lot of love addicts will
keep a stash so they they have the people on
their phone, they have the people on their social media
that they you can get a hit. You know, if
I text, If I text this person and they text
me back, I'm going to get that little that little hit,
that little rush. So I have my people. I've sat
with people and gone through their phone. Let's get rid
(12:53):
of the numbers. Let's block the people. Let's you know,
sometimes we have to shut down social media. Depends on
the situation. But again, it's when you look at it
as an addiction, you got to get rid of the stash.
And if people are your are your drug of choice,
we have to clear it out as much as possible. Obviously.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah, it's it's a wild concept.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
I know a lot of people hate me at the beginning.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
They're like, oh, I'm sure, like just trust the process. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
With drug and alcohol, if you don't do drugs, you're sober.
If you do drugs, you relapse. It's pretty cut and
dry when you're talking about codependency or love addiction. You
have to define what a relapse is going to be
so that you have it's a compass, you know if
it's going to point you in the right direction. It's
similar to an eating disorders. With eating disorders, you don't
stop eating, but you have to define what your recovery
(13:49):
is going to look like. It takes one millisecond for
this intrusive thought to come in and be like, oh,
maybe what it should have could have and want to
go to an old behavior.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
What are some reasons someone may not be successful after
a visit to a treatment center, and how can you
prevent this? What gives people a better chance at success?
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Well, in an ideal world, stepping down and going from
a residential program into something like an IOP, an intensive
outpatient program which takes you from having your days completely
structured and you're being told what to do from the
time you wake up time you go to sleep for
forty five days or longer. If you go right back
(14:50):
out into the world, it can be a shock to
the system, which some people cannot do IOP. You know,
they have to get back to work, they have to
get back to life. Taking time out is a big
deal and not everybody can do it, but if you
can step down to an IOP, it helps you sort
of integrate back into the world slowly and start taking
the tools that you've learned and apply them. But you
(15:11):
still have a safe place to do that. If you
can't do an IOP and or like a sober living environment,
at least having a plan before you leave the rehab,
have an appointment already set up with the therapist that
you're going to work with. Have the meetings. If you're
going to go to meetings, have them already, have researched
(15:32):
where they are and what time. Have your first week
after rehab already scheduled out so that you don't have
to think about it. You can leave and you're like,
I'm going to leave, I'm going to land. When I
get home tonight, I'm going to call so and so
we're check in, and then tomorrow I'm going to go
to this meeting and I'm going to journal and set
(15:52):
up routines. You know, take whatever routines we're working for
you in treatment and keep doing them. So routines are important.
Having accountability is important. A lot of people, a lot
of my people who go through the meadows, a lot
of my clients. You know, with your cohort, you become
friends with people, so they stay in touch. People have
like little group messaging that they start. Some of my
(16:15):
people they start having like a zoom meeting, you know,
once a week. So staying in touch with the people
you've connected with that's really helpful because they bear witness
to the work you did and you them, so you
have a really unique, special intimate connection that people just
(16:36):
can't We'll never be able to understand who weren't there,
you know, So that's really important. If you just leave
and go right back to your old ways, go right
back to what you're doing, you take none of the
things that you learn with you and just think, you know,
I went and now it's all in my brain and
I'm fine, and do nothing different. Then you'll go back
(17:00):
to exactly what was going on before you went.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yeah, I was like, I'm taking my recovery very seriously,
Like I'm only doing this once. Because there were a
few people that came in from other treatment facilities and
they're like, yeah, this is my eighth time. I'm like, eh,
like how yeah, you know, like that's not happening for me,
Like it's a one and done.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, they do. They half asset, you know, if you
half asset or you're thinking no better. I mean, I'm
sure you've heard the turn like you're best thinking got
you there? So if you it's just best to take
all the treatment recommendations with you and stay connected to
whoever you can.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Yeah. Do you need to be ready to go to
a treatment facility?
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Ooh, that's a that's a tough question. I think it
helps if you're ready. But I think a lot of
people end up in treatment because the people around them
expressed concern and encourage them to go, or people that
they trusted said I'm really worried about you, or I
(18:12):
really think this could help, and they trusted those people
and just went on faith alone. So I think, yes,
it can be beneficial either or.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
I feel like in some level, every single person that
came into the Meadows when I was there hit their
own personal rock bottom, and so it was like we
didn't really have a choice other than you know, admitting
we at.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Least have a problem that we need help.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
And I think it was whether or not like you
were willing to make changes to your behavior and willing
to let go of your unhealthy patterns.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, some people go, So there's different stages of readiness,
you know. And there are people who go when they're
in crisis and they're just sort of grasping it whatever
they can. Especially a lot of the guys I work
with that are sex addicts, and they got caught, you know,
and they run to general path. Some of them weren't
technically ready to go. They went because they had to.
(19:19):
They went under dress, or because it was either that
or divorce or whatever. They can still do very very
well if they just listen and be open to what
there is to learn there. But then there are people
who are ready for change, they're in so much pain.
(19:40):
And then those are the people who they're like, I'm
just I don't know what else to do, and I
want this to be different. I want to figure out
what's wrong with me, not that anything's wrong with you.
But those people are usually ready to absorb from day one,
(20:00):
whereas people who maybe enter in a crisis mode, maybe
it takes them a week or two to be like,
wait a minute, maybe I do belong here, maybe I
actually could learn something. They go like a little resistantly,
but then open up to it. So yeah, I think
it could be both. It just depends on the situation.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Yeah, And like a typical day at the Meadows.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Looked like pre meeting in the morning where we would
go around say their names in a positive affirmation for
the day. Then we would have lecture, morning lecture, group
therapy which was like a group of maybe eight to
ten people, and then another lecture, another group therapy, and
(20:48):
then we may have a one on one therapy session
with a trauma therapist and that could look like talk therapy,
em dr art.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Or parts work. It's pretty intense.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
And I feel like, you know, some people may think
that some celebrities go to these places just to like
get away and say that they went, but not actually
do the work. But I've been conveying on this podcast
like how intense it actually is and how dedicated you
(21:29):
choose to be in your recovery through this process, and
how the Meadow specifically is a great I mean personally
for me anyway, I feel like it's a great recovery center.
So could you speak more to like the structure and
like the trauma therapy and why those things work.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
The structure, it's busy, like it's not a day spa.
You're not you know, getting massages and eating bon bonds
all day. It's exhausting because there is all of the
things mentioned. There's group therapy, individual therapy, trauma therapy, experiential therapies.
There's lectures, you know, the psycho education. There's homework. There's
(22:12):
not a lot of free time. It is dilly dally
and trollier hair. So it is meant to keep you
busy because there is a lot to do. Forty five
days is bare minimum. I mean you are just scratching
the surface at forty five days. I understand you extend it,
and I think for people who can, that's amazing because
as you experience it's it's a lot.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah, I would say the forty five days. So basically
you have your lectures, you have your group therapy, and
you have your one on one trauma therapy. But then
there's also these week sessions where it's an experiential process
with a trauma therapist and for one week it's it's
(22:56):
called Survivor's Week, and that week you go back to
your childhood. It's like from birth to age eighteen, and
you you know, break down specific moments from your timeline
and experience them in front of some other people you know,
and it's very intimate, it's very vulnerable and very intense,
(23:21):
and it's all about like healing your childhood trauma or
at least beginning that process.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
So that that's a heavy week.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
And then there's also a family week in this forty
five days which either a significant other can come, a daughter,
a parent, someone in your family gets to come. And
for me, both of my parents did go, and it
was very rigorous for them, and I think the concepts
(23:51):
too or you know, there's like this talking boundary where
it takes some practice and for some of the adults
that came in, they just like couldn't pick it up.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Well, it's weird. I mean, nobody is it's like that
in real life, but it is the concept of it
is what you're trying to learn, the concept of when
you said X y Z, what I made Like, nobody
goes out in the world and says what I made
up about that? However, so and that the tugging boundary
(24:26):
is an important concept to learn because you have to say,
you have to state the thing you're talking about. You know,
when you said, don't eat the lemon moraine pie, what
I made up about that? That part is we have
to take ownership and accountability of the meaning we attach
to other people's words and actions, because it may or
may not be what they meant. It's what we do
(24:48):
with it in our head. We might be spot on,
but it's what we do in our head, and that's
what we have to We're trying to teach is you
did the thing, and what you don't know is now
in my brain. I I made this stuff up. I
made meaning about it, and I made some assumptions or whatever,
and then that created some feelings. I was angry, and
(25:09):
they keep you to the kind of main feeling words.
You know, in the real world, people will be like,
you really.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
Pissed me off, all right, But then it's then you
have to open it up too, and then you can
say preferences like here's what I need or what I prefer, whatever,
But you have to you have probably experienced this as well.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
You have to ask someone if, first of all, if
they're open to hearing what you have to say, because
there is some importance in the timing of talking to
somebody about something, if it's important, So are you open,
Because if somebody's not open, what's the point I'm talking
to this talking to a wall. So and then it
invites them into a dialogue. It invites you know, like
(25:49):
do you agree, disagree? Do you have a different point
of view? Do you need more information because you don't
really know what I'm talking about, you know, And that's
where you're learning to be relational. You're learning to have
that healthy communication talking boundaries. And then the listening boundary,
you know, where we listen with curiosity, not listening to defend.
(26:12):
And that's hard for people too, because we want to
get it's really easy to get defensive. But if we
just stay curious about what the person is saying and
just hold off on whatever's going on with us, because
that's there. It's your reality, that's not my reality, may
or may not be my reality. So it's teaching these
it's it almost sounds it's not basic, I think, because
(26:34):
I've been doing this for so long and fields music,
But there is really really really simple communication skills that
are so important to having healthy relationships.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Coming up with that for sure.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
For the listeners listening in that have never heard of
the talking boundaries before, it probably sounds very abstract. But basically,
to give an example, when you said that I was
not at a recovery center.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
I was actually at a SPA.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
What I made up about that is you're minimizing the
work that I'm doing to become a better person and
to look at my actions and make changes to my
behavior to become a better person. And I feel like
you're not taking that seriously and discrediting me. The feelings
that come up for me is anger, and so that
(27:25):
would be an example of a talking boundary. I was
talking to a friend at lunch yesterday and she was saying, like, oh, Man,
on Instagram, I keep seeing these things come up with
you in it or people talking about you, and it
just seems like so crazy that it's been a year
and it's still going on. She was like, when they
were saying you actually weren't at rehab, you were at
(27:48):
a spa. I felt relieved because I wanted to know
that you were okay and like you weren't going through
something so serious where you know, potentially your life could
have been threatened or or something on that extreme level.
And so she was like, when I heard you were
at a SPA, I was like, okay, good for her,
(28:09):
Like she needs this time away. And then she said
not knowing later on finding out that like I actually
was at a rehab or recovery center and not at
a SPA. So it just made me think, like, Okay,
so the meaning I made up about people saying I'm
at a SPA really was my interpretation of like feeling belittled.
(28:34):
But in reality it may not even be that necessarily
because a real friend would hear that information and interpret
it in a way that is like caring for my
well being. Maybe that adds more clarity to the talking boundary,
because it really is, like it's how we are processing
(28:56):
the data in front of us and interpreting it reality.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
I mean, it's still teach it all the time, and
I tell people find your own words. You know, you
don't have to. You have to at the meadows, you
use that particular languaging to train yourself just to keep
it simple and keep everybody on the same page. But
when you got into the real world, you can start
using your own words. And I do this with my husband,
(29:22):
you know, like because I'll say, you know when you
did when you I don't know, this isn't when you
didn't take out the trash. You know. What happens for
me is I feel like you think I'm your maid
and that you just assume I'm going to do all
the housework. And then I get angry because I don't
feel like we're sharing the housework. And by saying it
(29:42):
like that is I'm not like you take me for
granted and you think I'm You know, it's because that's
just going to put him on defensive. If I say
this is what happens for me when you do something,
it allows him number one to know what's going on
for me because he's not a mind reader. Nobody is.
And then it allows it makes me vulnerable, which actually
(30:05):
allows for connection because that's one of the things vulnerability does.
It actually reduces shame and provides the opportunity for connection.
And meadows does a lot of shame reduction work as well,
because that's one of the things that comes from a
lot of the family of origin stuff when you're digging
it up, is shame that shows up in a lot
(30:26):
of different ways.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Yeah, let's talk about that for just a minute. How
does someone heal from shame and guilt? More so shame,
I would say, because there's a difference between shame and guilt,
and that was one of the things that we had
to learn to differentiate. Guilt is basically I did something
and that thing was a bad thing. Where shame is
(30:50):
I am a bad person because I did this thing.
There's your own shame that you feel within your body,
and then there's also hawk sick shame or external shame
from the environment around you, which can be very detrimental
to somebody's mental well being as well.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Yes, dealing with shame, guilt and shame, toxic shame. That's like,
like it's been hours talking about that. So number one
is understanding the difference and understanding where it came from.
So that again going back to family of origin work,
you have to understand where that's coming from and whose
voice that is and where it lies and how it's
(31:34):
created some of the behaviors and things that you're doing
now to either medicate num over correct those kinds of things.
So the education piece is first, That's why there's a
lot of psycho education in treatment. And then you have
to start identifying how it's been showing up in your life,
where it's coming up, and what you're doing, what you've
(31:55):
been doing in an unhealthy way to deal with it, because,
like you said, so shame is I am bad, I
am unworthy, And any time that unworthiness gets triggered by somebody,
you know they've done this, so that must mean I'm
not good enough. And then we've learned unhealthy behaviors to
(32:18):
try and get rid of that feeling, which is where codependency,
you know, like being a people pleaser. Let me let
me like say yes to everything, let me apologize a
million times for things that I really shouldn't be apologizing for,
you know, and then starting to look for opportunities to
do the opposite. Say no, don't say you're sorry. If
(32:40):
you don't need to be apologizing, you have to find
small ways to start doing it differently. So you can
train your brain that you won't die. If you say no,
you won't die. If you set a healthy boundary, you
won't die. If you accept the fact that you know,
(33:01):
I don't need you to like me, I you know,
like myself. There's a lot of that inside work that
comes with it self esteem, which is the same as
self value, self worth, self love. So there's a lot
of that inside work that happens. The Survivors Week that
you went through. There's shame reduction work in there. Some
(33:21):
of that empty chair work and the experiential work where
you give back carried emotions, things that you've it's conceptually
it's your caregivers, your upbringing, people in your life, growing up,
the adults in your life a lot of times put
things on you unknowingly, a lot of times that they
(33:46):
weren't equipped to deal with themselves or they had shame
about so it inadvertently was put on you, and now
you're carrying it. So body, image, food, shame, you know.
And then there's the experiential work where you give it back,
you let it go. You really, I'm not going to
(34:06):
carry this anymore. This isn't mine. So there's a lot
of different ways to do the shame work, but it
is really important to do that work because when your
shame gets triggered, it can I can't I can feel that.
I have a hard time describing it, but it's a
feeling that you just you want to get away from
(34:30):
it and you go back to old coping mechanisms and
old unhealthy behavior. Is really fast because a shame again,
shame is I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy. Who
the hell wants to feel like that? So if that's
being triggered and you're suddenly internally, consciously or unconsciously feeling
I'm not good enough. Your brain's going to do whatever
(34:50):
it's going to do to get out of that.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
So basically, if you don't heal your shame and it
gets triggered for you, it comes up, it's putting your
recovery at risk because you're going to find ways to
escape from those shameful feelings, whether that's with a person
or with a substance, whatever that may be.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Yeah, workaholism, over exercising, staying too busy. I mean, there's
umptyen ways to medicate uncomfortable feelings.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
I did a podcast episode with another therapist who we
were talking about building trust again after a betrayal. But
you specialize in what was it, betrayal trauma? Yeah, betrayal trauma.
How does one rebuild trust after there's been a betrayal?
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Well, the number one thing I start with is trusting
your instincts, trusting yourself. One of the things that happens
with betrayal trauma typically is you.
Speaker 5 (36:11):
Have learned that you've been gas lit, you've been shamed,
you've been somehow receiving messages that what you think like
your instincts, your gut instincts, are wrong, that you're crazy,
you're insane, you're too emotional, you're too sensitive, when.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
All along you were probably right. And it's one of
and being able to trust yourself and trust your instincts.
Having that taken away from you it's so detrimental. So
that's one of the first things I do is we
have to help you learn how to trust your instincts.
And it's again it's it's on a spectrum. This is
(36:54):
it's not it's like exact science, because there are I've
had plenty of times with clients where it's a good
instinct or am I just having a trauma response?
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Mm hmmm. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
It's so hard to differentiate when you you know, like
you've been in this place of like, I've been making
bad decisions and I've been betraying myself. So how do
I know now if these thoughts are coming from a
place of ego or if it's coming from a place
of deeper knowing intuition, and like, you know, like it
(37:31):
is very confusing.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
So what we talked about earlier, when you do have
the benefit of going to treatment, you now have people
who can help you figure that out. You have your
accountability people, you have the people who were there for you,
you have your therapist, you have the people who you've
identified as emotionally safe, people who can help you navigate that.
(37:54):
And sometimes there is I mean there's sometimes there is
not an answer. Sometimes it's just being okay, not knowing.
I think you mentioned spirituality, you know, so if you
either already have or leave with some sense of spirituality,
whether it's religious or a higher power or universe whatever,
(38:16):
you start to learn how to utilize that concept as well,
because when you believe that there's something guiding you or
there for you, whatever, that whatever you call it, sometimes
it's just that. Sometimes it's, you know what, I don't
know if this is a gut instinct or if this
is an old trauma response. So I'm going to turn
(38:36):
this over to you. Sometimes, you know, I like to say,
imagine like a balloon, and you put in a balloon,
you pop it up to the sky and you say,
and then you wait and you meditate, you journal, you
wait for clarity. You sometimes if you wait a couple
of days, depending on whatever the thing is we're talking about,
you get clarity or just goes away. I mean, there's
(38:58):
a lot of scenario, but those are some of those
things that again when I was talking about utilizing the
tools that you pick up when you're in treatment, those
are the things that you can use when you're trying
to address something like am I going crazy?
Speaker 4 (39:14):
Again?
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Is it? Should I trust my and I and I
do the other? One of the things I teach a
lot of my material trauma clients. It's not romantic at all,
but you have to start collecting data. So people will
show you what they're capable or not capable of, but
they're willing to do or not do via their actions.
(39:36):
So you just have to start collecting data, you know,
just start making notes of did that person do what
they said they were going to do? Were they where
they said they were going to be? Did they get
home and they say where they're going to be home?
Are they acting with integrity? Are they showing up the
way that they said they were going to or the
way that I need them to. That's information. So because
(39:59):
our emotions are feelings change all the time, but data
does not. So you start collecting data. Yeah, and then
if you have to make decisions, you can go back
to your database and look at the.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Evidence two things.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Okay, piggybacking off of what you just said there, When
people come out of a recovery center, obviously there has
been trust broken somewhere in their relationships and friendships. And
I think one of the things that we had to
grapple while we were in there is like, yeah, Okay,
(40:35):
they're probably going to think a certain way about me
until I'm able to show them that they can trust
me again and I'm a better person now. I think
just like recognizing that point too, because we've been talking
about like collecting data from other people, but then at
the same time, those other people are probably collecting data
(40:56):
from us, the ones coming out of a recovery center too.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Absolutely, you have to I mean, if you break trust,
it's on you to rebuild it. And it takes two
seconds to break it and it can take it can
take sometimes years to rebuild it. So you just have
to allow people to you know, you have to honor
their pain, just like you want people to honor yours.
(41:22):
And you have to just keep consistently showing up and
doing the things that you say you're going to do.
Whatever it different behaviors, acting differently, it's on you. To
proactively show that you have changed, and it's not a
(41:44):
one time thing. It's it's got to be a lifetime thing.
If you really have changed, it should.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Be a lifetime thing, right, And it's not just a
manipulation to know something now.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
If it's just a manipulation, it's it will show you
will your app pretty quickly because if you're being manipulative,
you can only hang on to that act for so long.
When it's a real, like cellular change, it just you
just are the change, be the chance.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
And then the second thing that I was going to say,
backtracking to the spirituality aspect.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
Because when I went into the meadows, and I've.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Talked about this before, one of the things that surprised
me was like the spiritual pillar that was in the
structure of what we were there to learn and experience.
And for me, I didn't really have that relationship with
my higher power. And it makes sense as you were saying,
(42:51):
like finding a way to you know, send a prayer
and just like surrender and let it go instead of
I think it was like communicating with somebody that you
shouldn't be communicating with. But through the process I realized
that I really did put this person on a pedestal
and I was looking for him for answers, and he
(43:17):
put the show as his higher power and so in turn,
like it was just like very twisted in that way.
So realizing that helped me understand my relationship to my
higher power or begin to understand what that relationship is
(43:39):
for me. So last question, what is your best advice
for someone who knows they need help but can't quite
figure out how to ask for it?
Speaker 1 (43:49):
Well, I mean they can listen to podcasts like yours,
I think when you can, if they can hear about
other people's experiences and know that they're not the first one,
nor will they be the last ones to struggle with
whatever they're struggling with, and that there is hope, and
that asking for help is the hardest part, Like taking
(44:13):
that first step is the hardest part. One of the
things I do say is that you may not trust anybody,
but if you can just have that little like that
blind faith and just take that little baby step and
just just listen, you don't even have to do anything
(44:34):
at first. If you can just listen a lot of times,
that's gonna be the catalyst to get you moving it
just takes a little momentum. But for people who have
a hard time asking for help is just knowing that
there are people out there. We're not like us, therapist,
We're not scary, we're not gonna like bite your head off.
(44:58):
We care.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Realizing that there's people out there that feel fulfilled helping
people like you. So so when you're asking for help,
you're not a burden like you may think you are. No.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
I do what I do essentially because I grew up
wanting my My dad went to rehab and I loved
the family therapists at the rehabs when he was in rehab.
It's what influenced me to become a therapist when I
was even a little kid. And then since then, I've
gone through many many things that I couldn't have planned
(45:33):
on that added to my you know, specialties, and so
I've been there like more than more than likely been there,
done that. So not judging, not shaming. Usually it's yeah,
I know what you're talking about, and I'm not going
(45:53):
to think you're crazy. Some of the things people come
in it's like, am I crazy? Am I broken? What's
wrong with me? You don't know what I'm thinking? And
I don't. You're not crazy, you're not broken, You're human.
You have wounding, and that's I think the most important thing.
If someone needs help, here's the answer. Someone needs help
(46:14):
when they're afraid to ask, just know that. It's like,
if you were really sick and needed surgery, you'd go
get the surgery because you needed that for healing, because
your life depended on it. Mental health is the same
thing you just you can't see the wounding. The wounding
(46:36):
is invisible, but it's the same thing you need, the healing.
Speaker 3 (46:41):
That was a perfect, perfectly imperfect answer. We got there.
Oh my gosh, thank you so much Jill for coming
on to Rachel Goes Through today.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
It really has been like I've been wanting to dive
deeper into like the meadow, specifically to portray like how
helpful it was for me. And I know the other
people listening to this podcast that make it to the end,
they're the ones that do get something out of listening,
and that just fulfills my soul. So I just want
(47:15):
to thank you for being a part of that.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
Oh you're welcome, and thank you for having me. It
was fun.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
Thank you so much for listening to Rachel goes Rogue.
Follow us on Instagram and TikTok for exclusive video content
at Rachel Gos Rogue Podcast
This is Rachel gos Rogue.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome back to another episode of Rachel Goes Rogue with
your host, Rachel Savannah Levis. This podcast has allowed me
to explore so many facets of my past, and I
have had some incredible guests join me on topics that
will better your future. But today I kind of want
to bridge those two together. I have an incredible guest
(00:35):
joining me who worked at The Meadows, and I want
to dive into what that program was like for me
and how it has shaped me into the person I
am today. I'm joined by doctor Jill Vermire, who is
a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in sex addiction,
love addiction, partner betrayal, trauma, and sex therapy. Doctor Jill
(01:00):
helps patients heal from the shame, pain, or guilt of addiction, trauma,
or betrayal. She co authored an award winning book on
treating female sex and love addiction and starred on v
H one's Sex Rehab with Doctor Drew. So I got
Jill's contact info. At the Meadows, sometimes in lectures, one
(01:26):
of the senior fellows will visit and give like a
special lecture, and this was the case that morning, a
senior fellow at Meadows is giving a lecture on addiction,
and I asked him if it was possible to be
in recovery and be on a reality TV show, because
that was the main dilemma that I was trying to
(01:48):
solve for myself, whether or not I was going to
go back to this show, and I needed.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
To know, like, is it even possible?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
And he said, yes, it is, and then I cried
and he gave me Jill's contact. I contacted her after
I got out of The Meadows, but we really didn't
connect until more recently, and I would just love to
have her on the podcast because I haven't been able
(02:19):
to fully encapsulate what the experience was like at The Meadows.
And I've interviewed a few other therapists and people who
have worked at recovery centers before, but The Meadows is
like a very specific recovery program and it's world renowned
(02:42):
and I kind of want to just like dive deeper
into what the day to day actually was like. And
I think Jill is the person for the job since
she actually worked at the Meadows. She actually help found
the women's house that treats sex and love addiction and
(03:05):
so I think that's very cool and uh, and I
think she's a big deal, so I'm happy to have
her on.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Hi Jill, Hey Rachel, are you doing outpatient now?
Speaker 1 (03:18):
No, I'm just in private practice now. I've worked at
the Meadows a few times. Actually, I worked there. PM
Melody was my supervisor back in like oh five oh six.
That was my journey into love addiction was Yeah, I
ran away from my feelings guys in California as in
LA for a long time and uh kind of brought
to my knees with the whole love addiction thing that
(03:39):
I didn't know at the time. Ran home to Arizona,
worked at the Meadows. Pia taught me about love addiction
and the first time I saw that lecture, I was like,
holy shit me like a like a whole story, like
they've been following me. So then I worked and they
didn't have IOP back then. Then I worked at IOP
(04:01):
after I had a baby and we had moved back
here to Arizona, and that's when they hired me to
build Willow House.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
And wait before we get into Willow House, because I
my listeners probably don't know who Pia P. Melody is
recording already yeah, but I love your answer. I love
what you're you're sharing already because it's just so natural
and like a conversation. But I think it's like such
(04:31):
a big deal that you were trained under p Melody herself,
Like she was the one that founded the Meadows and
it's been a very successful recovery center treating codependency, addiction,
and love addiction, which I think is like a newer
(04:51):
It was probably like a groundbreaking concept at the time
when you were experiencing that.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, And at the time, I may would go around,
you know, when I worked there, it was like they're
a love actor, a love avoid and your love act.
I'm like, well, is everybody a love actor? Love avoid it?
And of course since then, because that was, you know,
a couple of minutes ago, a lot has come out about,
you know, like attachment theory. Really she was talking about
(05:19):
attachment styles and putting some user friendly names to it.
I've never been the biggest fan of the labels because
I think they're actually misleading. Because love addiction it's kind
of like sex diction. Look, who doesn't like sex? You know,
who doesn't want to be in love? But the concept
of addiction when you look at it from that lens.
(05:40):
Is when it's addictive, it's a repetitive pattern, there are
negative consequences, the consequences continue, they get worse, there's failed
attempts to stop the pattern or to deal with it,
and becomes a vicious cycle. And that's really when you
can put it into that addiction category. And it is
(06:04):
it is as life threatening in my opinion as a
chemical addiction, because this is where we see people in
the end part of the cycle. They start cut, you know,
self harming, They relapse on drugs, alcohol eating disorders, people
become suicidal that you know, they want to hurt themselves.
They want to hurt I mean in extreme cases, they
(06:26):
want to hurt the person that's infected the pain on them.
So it can be extremely severe and extremely serious. And
it's one of the reasons why I'm really passionate about that.
And it is connected to and it can be the
precursor to other addictions and a lot of other issues
(06:47):
in life that can be really detrimental.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
So yeah, definitely. And then with the Willow House, what
was your involvement with creating Willow House and can you
like give us a little rundown of what that is okay.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So, like I said, PA was my supervisor way back
when she helped launch me into my own recovery from
love addiction. And at the time, I was already a
certified sex addiction therapist, and at the time I was
only used to treating male sex addicts. So Pia helped
(07:23):
me also understand female sex addiction. Sex and love addiction,
they're different and the same, they overlap. So it became
a specialty of mine was female sex and love addiction.
I ended up being invited to write a training comprehensive
training manual on treating female sex and love addiction with
some other leaders in our field, and it just kind
of became what I was known for as like my
(07:45):
super subspecialty. So when I contacted Jim at Iop Jim Corrington,
I was like, Hey, we're moving back, and I had
already had a previous relationship with him from working there.
He was he was like, oh my god, we're building this.
We're going to be building this women's program similar to
(08:08):
gentle Path, which is the men's version of the sex
addiction treatment program there. And so they brought me on
to build this program just because it was my wheelhouse.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Okay, Yeah, I'd love to get into the difference between
the structure of Willow House compared to your standard campus
at the Meadows, because I knew I had a problem,
and it took me quite some time to like admit
that it was love addiction. And I think the Willow
(08:41):
House would have been great for me, but I wasn't
in the mindset to accept that, like that's the place
that I should go. One of the biggest differences was
the phone calls. So you're not allowed to make out
going phone calls to your significant other or whoever it
may be. Is that correct, or like everyone has to
(09:03):
listen in on the phone calls that go out.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
So it might have changed since I built it, because
this was we launched in twenty seventeen. The idea behind
the phone calls, especially at a place like Willowhouse, because
a Willowhouse, you're treating relational I mean, there's a million
different terms relational disorders, attachment disorders, love addictions, that whatever,
majorial trauma. So one of the things about a process addiction,
(09:32):
process disorder, relational all the things, is that you are
essentially there because you have problematic relationships with yourself and
other people. They're your drugs. So it's like you know,
you like they check for contraband when you check into
any rehab to see if you're bringing in drugs or
alcohol or paraphernala or anything. When you're being treated for
(09:55):
something like love addiction or sex addiction, you're not gonna,
you know, stab your qualifier. Qualifier is the person who's
affected you to the point where this is now what
you realize you're suffering from. So you're not gonna stash
your person. But the phone calls can be a way
to you know, quote unquote get high. So they really
want to help you detox from your drug of choice,
(10:19):
which could be the person if you are addicted to
or you have a toxic relationship with. So I mean
that's essentially that's part of the theory behind it is
you really it's the emotional detox. And honestly, I don't
know if you experienced this or not, but the emotional
detox is extremely uncomfortable and actually lasts longer than a
(10:43):
drug detox because there's the emotional piece to it. There's
not detox drugs you can really take to toxic relationship
or betrayal, trauma or any of those things.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
I mean for me, I kind of weaned off of
my qualifier, and by the end of my recovery stay,
I knew that he was not a healthy person for
me to be in communication with, and part of my
treatment plan was I would know I would be in
crisis if I contacted him, and so it was just
(11:20):
very clear that I had to cut him out. But
I did an interview with Buthany Frankel, and I was
still kind of protecting him and not really you know,
being fully transparent the way that I am now on
this podcast, And so I can see how like, yeah,
the emotional effects that it has on somebody last like.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
A substantial amount of time.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Even hearing their voice, because again relating it to a
drug addiction, if you detox from a drug, but then
you have a little, tiny, little taste of it, it
reactivates that part of your brain that's addicted. It's the
same thing with a person. Just hearing their voice can
(12:11):
reactivate and kind of say you. Not always, it's not
an exact science, it's not black and white. It's very
much on a spectrum, but just hearing a voice can
set you back. One of the things I have my
clients do is we do have to go through their stash.
So when you're dealing with addiction to a person, love addiction,
(12:32):
whatever we're calling it, a lot of love addicts will
keep a stash so they they have the people on
their phone, they have the people on their social media
that they you can get a hit. You know, if
I text, If I text this person and they text
me back, I'm going to get that little that little hit,
that little rush. So I have my people. I've sat
with people and gone through their phone. Let's get rid
(12:53):
of the numbers. Let's block the people. Let's you know,
sometimes we have to shut down social media. Depends on
the situation. But again, it's when you look at it
as an addiction, you got to get rid of the stash.
And if people are your are your drug of choice,
we have to clear it out as much as possible. Obviously.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah, it's it's a wild concept.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
I know a lot of people hate me at the beginning.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
They're like, oh, I'm sure, like just trust the process. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
With drug and alcohol, if you don't do drugs, you're sober.
If you do drugs, you relapse. It's pretty cut and
dry when you're talking about codependency or love addiction. You
have to define what a relapse is going to be
so that you have it's a compass, you know if
it's going to point you in the right direction. It's
similar to an eating disorders. With eating disorders, you don't
stop eating, but you have to define what your recovery
(13:49):
is going to look like. It takes one millisecond for
this intrusive thought to come in and be like, oh,
maybe what it should have could have and want to
go to an old behavior.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
What are some reasons someone may not be successful after
a visit to a treatment center, and how can you
prevent this? What gives people a better chance at success?
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Well, in an ideal world, stepping down and going from
a residential program into something like an IOP, an intensive
outpatient program which takes you from having your days completely
structured and you're being told what to do from the
time you wake up time you go to sleep for
forty five days or longer. If you go right back
(14:50):
out into the world, it can be a shock to
the system, which some people cannot do IOP. You know,
they have to get back to work, they have to
get back to life. Taking time out is a big
deal and not everybody can do it, but if you
can step down to an IOP, it helps you sort
of integrate back into the world slowly and start taking
the tools that you've learned and apply them. But you
(15:11):
still have a safe place to do that. If you
can't do an IOP and or like a sober living environment,
at least having a plan before you leave the rehab,
have an appointment already set up with the therapist that
you're going to work with. Have the meetings. If you're
going to go to meetings, have them already, have researched
(15:32):
where they are and what time. Have your first week
after rehab already scheduled out so that you don't have
to think about it. You can leave and you're like,
I'm going to leave, I'm going to land. When I
get home tonight, I'm going to call so and so
we're check in, and then tomorrow I'm going to go
to this meeting and I'm going to journal and set
(15:52):
up routines. You know, take whatever routines we're working for
you in treatment and keep doing them. So routines are important.
Having accountability is important. A lot of people, a lot
of my people who go through the meadows, a lot
of my clients. You know, with your cohort, you become
friends with people, so they stay in touch. People have
like little group messaging that they start. Some of my
(16:15):
people they start having like a zoom meeting, you know,
once a week. So staying in touch with the people
you've connected with that's really helpful because they bear witness
to the work you did and you them, so you
have a really unique, special intimate connection that people just
(16:36):
can't We'll never be able to understand who weren't there,
you know, So that's really important. If you just leave
and go right back to your old ways, go right
back to what you're doing, you take none of the
things that you learn with you and just think, you know,
I went and now it's all in my brain and
I'm fine, and do nothing different. Then you'll go back
(17:00):
to exactly what was going on before you went.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yeah, I was like, I'm taking my recovery very seriously,
Like I'm only doing this once. Because there were a
few people that came in from other treatment facilities and
they're like, yeah, this is my eighth time. I'm like, eh,
like how yeah, you know, like that's not happening for me,
Like it's a one and done.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, they do. They half asset, you know, if you
half asset or you're thinking no better. I mean, I'm
sure you've heard the turn like you're best thinking got
you there? So if you it's just best to take
all the treatment recommendations with you and stay connected to
whoever you can.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Yeah. Do you need to be ready to go to
a treatment facility?
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Ooh, that's a that's a tough question. I think it
helps if you're ready. But I think a lot of
people end up in treatment because the people around them
expressed concern and encourage them to go, or people that
they trusted said I'm really worried about you, or I
(18:12):
really think this could help, and they trusted those people
and just went on faith alone. So I think, yes,
it can be beneficial either or.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
I feel like in some level, every single person that
came into the Meadows when I was there hit their
own personal rock bottom, and so it was like we
didn't really have a choice other than you know, admitting
we at.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Least have a problem that we need help.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
And I think it was whether or not like you
were willing to make changes to your behavior and willing
to let go of your unhealthy patterns.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, some people go, So there's different stages of readiness,
you know. And there are people who go when they're
in crisis and they're just sort of grasping it whatever
they can. Especially a lot of the guys I work
with that are sex addicts, and they got caught, you know,
and they run to general path. Some of them weren't
technically ready to go. They went because they had to.
(19:19):
They went under dress, or because it was either that
or divorce or whatever. They can still do very very
well if they just listen and be open to what
there is to learn there. But then there are people
who are ready for change, they're in so much pain.
(19:40):
And then those are the people who they're like, I'm
just I don't know what else to do, and I
want this to be different. I want to figure out
what's wrong with me, not that anything's wrong with you.
But those people are usually ready to absorb from day one,
(20:00):
whereas people who maybe enter in a crisis mode, maybe
it takes them a week or two to be like,
wait a minute, maybe I do belong here, maybe I
actually could learn something. They go like a little resistantly,
but then open up to it. So yeah, I think
it could be both. It just depends on the situation.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Yeah, And like a typical day at the Meadows.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Looked like pre meeting in the morning where we would
go around say their names in a positive affirmation for
the day. Then we would have lecture, morning lecture, group
therapy which was like a group of maybe eight to
ten people, and then another lecture, another group therapy, and
(20:48):
then we may have a one on one therapy session
with a trauma therapist and that could look like talk therapy,
em dr art.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Or parts work. It's pretty intense.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
And I feel like, you know, some people may think
that some celebrities go to these places just to like
get away and say that they went, but not actually
do the work. But I've been conveying on this podcast
like how intense it actually is and how dedicated you
(21:29):
choose to be in your recovery through this process, and
how the Meadow specifically is a great I mean personally
for me anyway, I feel like it's a great recovery center.
So could you speak more to like the structure and
like the trauma therapy and why those things work.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
The structure, it's busy, like it's not a day spa.
You're not you know, getting massages and eating bon bonds
all day. It's exhausting because there is all of the
things mentioned. There's group therapy, individual therapy, trauma therapy, experiential therapies.
There's lectures, you know, the psycho education. There's homework. There's
(22:12):
not a lot of free time. It is dilly dally
and trollier hair. So it is meant to keep you
busy because there is a lot to do. Forty five
days is bare minimum. I mean you are just scratching
the surface at forty five days. I understand you extend it,
and I think for people who can, that's amazing because
as you experience it's it's a lot.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah, I would say the forty five days. So basically
you have your lectures, you have your group therapy, and
you have your one on one trauma therapy. But then
there's also these week sessions where it's an experiential process
with a trauma therapist and for one week it's it's
(22:56):
called Survivor's Week, and that week you go back to
your childhood. It's like from birth to age eighteen, and
you you know, break down specific moments from your timeline
and experience them in front of some other people you know,
and it's very intimate, it's very vulnerable and very intense,
(23:21):
and it's all about like healing your childhood trauma or
at least beginning that process.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
So that that's a heavy week.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
And then there's also a family week in this forty
five days which either a significant other can come, a daughter,
a parent, someone in your family gets to come. And
for me, both of my parents did go, and it
was very rigorous for them, and I think the concepts
(23:51):
too or you know, there's like this talking boundary where
it takes some practice and for some of the adults
that came in, they just like couldn't pick it up.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Well, it's weird. I mean, nobody is it's like that
in real life, but it is the concept of it
is what you're trying to learn, the concept of when
you said X y Z, what I made Like, nobody
goes out in the world and says what I made
up about that? However, so and that the tugging boundary
(24:26):
is an important concept to learn because you have to say,
you have to state the thing you're talking about. You know,
when you said, don't eat the lemon moraine pie, what
I made up about that? That part is we have
to take ownership and accountability of the meaning we attach
to other people's words and actions, because it may or
may not be what they meant. It's what we do
(24:48):
with it in our head. We might be spot on,
but it's what we do in our head, and that's
what we have to We're trying to teach is you
did the thing, and what you don't know is now
in my brain. I I made this stuff up. I
made meaning about it, and I made some assumptions or whatever,
and then that created some feelings. I was angry, and
(25:09):
they keep you to the kind of main feeling words.
You know, in the real world, people will be like,
you really.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
Pissed me off, all right, But then it's then you
have to open it up too, and then you can
say preferences like here's what I need or what I prefer, whatever,
But you have to you have probably experienced this as well.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
You have to ask someone if, first of all, if
they're open to hearing what you have to say, because
there is some importance in the timing of talking to
somebody about something, if it's important, So are you open,
Because if somebody's not open, what's the point I'm talking
to this talking to a wall. So and then it
invites them into a dialogue. It invites you know, like
(25:49):
do you agree, disagree? Do you have a different point
of view? Do you need more information because you don't
really know what I'm talking about, you know, And that's
where you're learning to be relational. You're learning to have
that healthy communication talking boundaries. And then the listening boundary,
you know, where we listen with curiosity, not listening to defend.
(26:12):
And that's hard for people too, because we want to
get it's really easy to get defensive. But if we
just stay curious about what the person is saying and
just hold off on whatever's going on with us, because
that's there. It's your reality, that's not my reality, may
or may not be my reality. So it's teaching these
it's it almost sounds it's not basic, I think, because
(26:34):
I've been doing this for so long and fields music,
But there is really really really simple communication skills that
are so important to having healthy relationships.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Coming up with that for sure.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
For the listeners listening in that have never heard of
the talking boundaries before, it probably sounds very abstract. But basically,
to give an example, when you said that I was
not at a recovery center.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
I was actually at a SPA.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
What I made up about that is you're minimizing the
work that I'm doing to become a better person and
to look at my actions and make changes to my
behavior to become a better person. And I feel like
you're not taking that seriously and discrediting me. The feelings
that come up for me is anger, and so that
(27:25):
would be an example of a talking boundary. I was
talking to a friend at lunch yesterday and she was saying, like, oh, Man,
on Instagram, I keep seeing these things come up with
you in it or people talking about you, and it
just seems like so crazy that it's been a year
and it's still going on. She was like, when they
were saying you actually weren't at rehab, you were at
(27:48):
a spa. I felt relieved because I wanted to know
that you were okay and like you weren't going through
something so serious where you know, potentially your life could
have been threatened or or something on that extreme level.
And so she was like, when I heard you were
at a SPA, I was like, okay, good for her,
(28:09):
Like she needs this time away. And then she said
not knowing later on finding out that like I actually
was at a rehab or recovery center and not at
a SPA. So it just made me think, like, Okay,
so the meaning I made up about people saying I'm
at a SPA really was my interpretation of like feeling belittled.
(28:34):
But in reality it may not even be that necessarily
because a real friend would hear that information and interpret
it in a way that is like caring for my
well being. Maybe that adds more clarity to the talking boundary,
because it really is, like it's how we are processing
(28:56):
the data in front of us and interpreting it reality.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
I mean, it's still teach it all the time, and
I tell people find your own words. You know, you
don't have to. You have to at the meadows, you
use that particular languaging to train yourself just to keep
it simple and keep everybody on the same page. But
when you got into the real world, you can start
using your own words. And I do this with my husband,
(29:22):
you know, like because I'll say, you know when you
did when you I don't know, this isn't when you
didn't take out the trash. You know. What happens for
me is I feel like you think I'm your maid
and that you just assume I'm going to do all
the housework. And then I get angry because I don't
feel like we're sharing the housework. And by saying it
(29:42):
like that is I'm not like you take me for
granted and you think I'm You know, it's because that's
just going to put him on defensive. If I say
this is what happens for me when you do something,
it allows him number one to know what's going on
for me because he's not a mind reader. Nobody is.
And then it allows it makes me vulnerable, which actually
(30:05):
allows for connection because that's one of the things vulnerability does.
It actually reduces shame and provides the opportunity for connection.
And meadows does a lot of shame reduction work as well,
because that's one of the things that comes from a
lot of the family of origin stuff when you're digging
it up, is shame that shows up in a lot
(30:26):
of different ways.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Yeah, let's talk about that for just a minute. How
does someone heal from shame and guilt? More so shame,
I would say, because there's a difference between shame and guilt,
and that was one of the things that we had
to learn to differentiate. Guilt is basically I did something
and that thing was a bad thing. Where shame is
(30:50):
I am a bad person because I did this thing.
There's your own shame that you feel within your body,
and then there's also hawk sick shame or external shame
from the environment around you, which can be very detrimental
to somebody's mental well being as well.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Yes, dealing with shame, guilt and shame, toxic shame. That's like,
like it's been hours talking about that. So number one
is understanding the difference and understanding where it came from.
So that again going back to family of origin work,
you have to understand where that's coming from and whose
voice that is and where it lies and how it's
(31:34):
created some of the behaviors and things that you're doing
now to either medicate num over correct those kinds of things.
So the education piece is first, That's why there's a
lot of psycho education in treatment. And then you have
to start identifying how it's been showing up in your life,
where it's coming up, and what you're doing, what you've
(31:55):
been doing in an unhealthy way to deal with it, because,
like you said, so shame is I am bad, I
am unworthy, And any time that unworthiness gets triggered by somebody,
you know they've done this, so that must mean I'm
not good enough. And then we've learned unhealthy behaviors to
(32:18):
try and get rid of that feeling, which is where codependency,
you know, like being a people pleaser. Let me let
me like say yes to everything, let me apologize a
million times for things that I really shouldn't be apologizing for,
you know, and then starting to look for opportunities to
do the opposite. Say no, don't say you're sorry. If
(32:40):
you don't need to be apologizing, you have to find
small ways to start doing it differently. So you can
train your brain that you won't die. If you say no,
you won't die. If you set a healthy boundary, you
won't die. If you accept the fact that you know,
(33:01):
I don't need you to like me, I you know,
like myself. There's a lot of that inside work that
comes with it self esteem, which is the same as
self value, self worth, self love. So there's a lot
of that inside work that happens. The Survivors Week that
you went through. There's shame reduction work in there. Some
(33:21):
of that empty chair work and the experiential work where
you give back carried emotions, things that you've it's conceptually
it's your caregivers, your upbringing, people in your life, growing up,
the adults in your life a lot of times put
things on you unknowingly, a lot of times that they
(33:46):
weren't equipped to deal with themselves or they had shame
about so it inadvertently was put on you, and now
you're carrying it. So body, image, food, shame, you know.
And then there's the experiential work where you give it back,
you let it go. You really, I'm not going to
(34:06):
carry this anymore. This isn't mine. So there's a lot
of different ways to do the shame work, but it
is really important to do that work because when your
shame gets triggered, it can I can't I can feel that.
I have a hard time describing it, but it's a
feeling that you just you want to get away from
(34:30):
it and you go back to old coping mechanisms and
old unhealthy behavior. Is really fast because a shame again,
shame is I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy. Who
the hell wants to feel like that? So if that's
being triggered and you're suddenly internally, consciously or unconsciously feeling
I'm not good enough. Your brain's going to do whatever
(34:50):
it's going to do to get out of that.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
So basically, if you don't heal your shame and it
gets triggered for you, it comes up, it's putting your
recovery at risk because you're going to find ways to
escape from those shameful feelings, whether that's with a person
or with a substance, whatever that may be.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Yeah, workaholism, over exercising, staying too busy. I mean, there's
umptyen ways to medicate uncomfortable feelings.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
I did a podcast episode with another therapist who we
were talking about building trust again after a betrayal. But
you specialize in what was it, betrayal trauma? Yeah, betrayal trauma.
How does one rebuild trust after there's been a betrayal?
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Well, the number one thing I start with is trusting
your instincts, trusting yourself. One of the things that happens
with betrayal trauma typically is you.
Speaker 5 (36:11):
Have learned that you've been gas lit, you've been shamed,
you've been somehow receiving messages that what you think like
your instincts, your gut instincts, are wrong, that you're crazy,
you're insane, you're too emotional, you're too sensitive, when.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
All along you were probably right. And it's one of
and being able to trust yourself and trust your instincts.
Having that taken away from you it's so detrimental. So
that's one of the first things I do is we
have to help you learn how to trust your instincts.
And it's again it's it's on a spectrum. This is
(36:54):
it's not it's like exact science, because there are I've
had plenty of times with clients where it's a good
instinct or am I just having a trauma response?
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Mm hmmm. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
It's so hard to differentiate when you you know, like
you've been in this place of like, I've been making
bad decisions and I've been betraying myself. So how do
I know now if these thoughts are coming from a
place of ego or if it's coming from a place
of deeper knowing intuition, and like, you know, like it
(37:31):
is very confusing.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
So what we talked about earlier, when you do have
the benefit of going to treatment, you now have people
who can help you figure that out. You have your
accountability people, you have the people who were there for you,
you have your therapist, you have the people who you've
identified as emotionally safe, people who can help you navigate that.
(37:54):
And sometimes there is I mean there's sometimes there is
not an answer. Sometimes it's just being okay, not knowing.
I think you mentioned spirituality, you know, so if you
either already have or leave with some sense of spirituality,
whether it's religious or a higher power or universe whatever,
(38:16):
you start to learn how to utilize that concept as well,
because when you believe that there's something guiding you or
there for you, whatever, that whatever you call it, sometimes
it's just that. Sometimes it's, you know what, I don't
know if this is a gut instinct or if this
is an old trauma response. So I'm going to turn
(38:36):
this over to you. Sometimes, you know, I like to say,
imagine like a balloon, and you put in a balloon,
you pop it up to the sky and you say,
and then you wait and you meditate, you journal, you
wait for clarity. You sometimes if you wait a couple
of days, depending on whatever the thing is we're talking about,
you get clarity or just goes away. I mean, there's
(38:58):
a lot of scenario, but those are some of those
things that again when I was talking about utilizing the
tools that you pick up when you're in treatment, those
are the things that you can use when you're trying
to address something like am I going crazy?
Speaker 4 (39:14):
Again?
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Is it? Should I trust my and I and I
do the other? One of the things I teach a
lot of my material trauma clients. It's not romantic at all,
but you have to start collecting data. So people will
show you what they're capable or not capable of, but
they're willing to do or not do via their actions.
(39:36):
So you just have to start collecting data, you know,
just start making notes of did that person do what
they said they were going to do? Were they where
they said they were going to be? Did they get
home and they say where they're going to be home?
Are they acting with integrity? Are they showing up the
way that they said they were going to or the
way that I need them to. That's information. So because
(39:59):
our emotions are feelings change all the time, but data
does not. So you start collecting data. Yeah, and then
if you have to make decisions, you can go back
to your database and look at the.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Evidence two things.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Okay, piggybacking off of what you just said there, When
people come out of a recovery center, obviously there has
been trust broken somewhere in their relationships and friendships. And
I think one of the things that we had to
grapple while we were in there is like, yeah, Okay,
(40:35):
they're probably going to think a certain way about me
until I'm able to show them that they can trust
me again and I'm a better person now. I think
just like recognizing that point too, because we've been talking
about like collecting data from other people, but then at
the same time, those other people are probably collecting data
(40:56):
from us, the ones coming out of a recovery center too.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Absolutely, you have to I mean, if you break trust,
it's on you to rebuild it. And it takes two
seconds to break it and it can take it can
take sometimes years to rebuild it. So you just have
to allow people to you know, you have to honor
their pain, just like you want people to honor yours.
(41:22):
And you have to just keep consistently showing up and
doing the things that you say you're going to do.
Whatever it different behaviors, acting differently, it's on you. To
proactively show that you have changed, and it's not a
(41:44):
one time thing. It's it's got to be a lifetime thing.
If you really have changed, it should.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Be a lifetime thing, right, And it's not just a
manipulation to know something now.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
If it's just a manipulation, it's it will show you
will your app pretty quickly because if you're being manipulative,
you can only hang on to that act for so long.
When it's a real, like cellular change, it just you
just are the change, be the chance.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
And then the second thing that I was going to say,
backtracking to the spirituality aspect.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
Because when I went into the meadows, and I've.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Talked about this before, one of the things that surprised
me was like the spiritual pillar that was in the
structure of what we were there to learn and experience.
And for me, I didn't really have that relationship with
my higher power. And it makes sense as you were saying,
(42:51):
like finding a way to you know, send a prayer
and just like surrender and let it go instead of
I think it was like communicating with somebody that you
shouldn't be communicating with. But through the process I realized
that I really did put this person on a pedestal
and I was looking for him for answers, and he
(43:17):
put the show as his higher power and so in turn,
like it was just like very twisted in that way.
So realizing that helped me understand my relationship to my
higher power or begin to understand what that relationship is
(43:39):
for me. So last question, what is your best advice
for someone who knows they need help but can't quite
figure out how to ask for it?
Speaker 1 (43:49):
Well, I mean they can listen to podcasts like yours,
I think when you can, if they can hear about
other people's experiences and know that they're not the first one,
nor will they be the last ones to struggle with
whatever they're struggling with, and that there is hope, and
that asking for help is the hardest part, Like taking
(44:13):
that first step is the hardest part. One of the
things I do say is that you may not trust anybody,
but if you can just have that little like that
blind faith and just take that little baby step and
just just listen, you don't even have to do anything
(44:34):
at first. If you can just listen a lot of times,
that's gonna be the catalyst to get you moving it
just takes a little momentum. But for people who have
a hard time asking for help is just knowing that
there are people out there. We're not like us, therapist,
We're not scary, we're not gonna like bite your head off.
(44:58):
We care.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Realizing that there's people out there that feel fulfilled helping
people like you. So so when you're asking for help,
you're not a burden like you may think you are. No.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
I do what I do essentially because I grew up
wanting my My dad went to rehab and I loved
the family therapists at the rehabs when he was in rehab.
It's what influenced me to become a therapist when I
was even a little kid. And then since then, I've
gone through many many things that I couldn't have planned
(45:33):
on that added to my you know, specialties, and so
I've been there like more than more than likely been there,
done that. So not judging, not shaming. Usually it's yeah,
I know what you're talking about, and I'm not going
(45:53):
to think you're crazy. Some of the things people come
in it's like, am I crazy? Am I broken? What's
wrong with me? You don't know what I'm thinking? And
I don't. You're not crazy, you're not broken, You're human.
You have wounding, and that's I think the most important thing.
If someone needs help, here's the answer. Someone needs help
(46:14):
when they're afraid to ask, just know that. It's like,
if you were really sick and needed surgery, you'd go
get the surgery because you needed that for healing, because
your life depended on it. Mental health is the same
thing you just you can't see the wounding. The wounding
(46:36):
is invisible, but it's the same thing you need, the healing.
Speaker 3 (46:41):
That was a perfect, perfectly imperfect answer. We got there.
Oh my gosh, thank you so much Jill for coming
on to Rachel Goes Through today.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
It really has been like I've been wanting to dive
deeper into like the meadow, specifically to portray like how
helpful it was for me. And I know the other
people listening to this podcast that make it to the end,
they're the ones that do get something out of listening,
and that just fulfills my soul. So I just want
(47:15):
to thank you for being a part of that.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
Oh you're welcome, and thank you for having me. It
was fun.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
Thank you so much for listening to Rachel goes Rogue.
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